Craig, Ann / Re-Imagining Collection / Duke Digital Repository

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Ann, thank you so much for doing this interview.

0:05

If you could just say your full name.

0:08

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I'll give you my full, full name.

0:11

Jessica Ann Craig.

0:13

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Great.

0:14

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I go by Ann.

0:15

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You go by Ann, great.

0:16

And are you lay or clergy?

0:17

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Well, I have been a lay person for most of my life

0:20

and in the last year, about a little less than a year ago,

0:23

I was ordained in Metropolitan Community Churches

0:27

as well as the Fellowship of Affirming Ministries

0:30

under the leadership of Yvette Flunder.

0:35

So it was a very ecumenical ordination.

0:37

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Wonderful, thank you.

0:41

So, those would be your denominational affiliations now?

0:43

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No.

0:48

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No, okay.

0:49

(laughing)

0:49

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Yes and no.

0:51

I am affiliated with both groups

0:52

and I have not given up my United Methodist membership.

0:54

Call me ambivalent or call me visionary,

0:58

either one would work.

1:02

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Okay.

1:03

(laughing)

1:04

That is great.

1:05

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And, when and where were you born?

1:06

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Oklahoma City, Oklahoma in 1952.

1:08

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Wonderful.

1:12

And where did you go to school?

1:14

Graduate, divinity school, college, anything?

1:15

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I went to Nebraska Wesleyan University

1:19

and then to, several schools, but I went to

1:23

Yale Divinity School.

1:28

But in the past as I also did a summer quarter

1:33

at Grailville and got credit through the United,

1:36

what is it?

1:43

The United Theological School out in Ohio.

1:44

Which is a United Methodist affiliated institution.

1:47

Met some of the key players in that summer quarter

1:52

at Grailville.

1:56

And, many, I don't know if many, but several of them

1:59

were present at Re-Imagining and certainly all

2:03

were impacted.

2:06

So, and I've done graduate work, although I didn't get

2:08

a PhD, I did some PhD work, finished all the classwork

2:12

at Drew Theological School.

2:15

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Wonderful, interesting.

2:19

That's great.

2:21

What work or ministry were doing at the time

2:22

of Re-Imagining in 1993?

2:24

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I spent about 17 years in the general board of ministries,

2:28

specifically in United Methodist women,

2:33

what was then called the Women's Division,

2:35

now called the United Methodist Women's National Office.

2:37

So that's what I was doing there.

2:41

And my role was the Executive Director for Spiritual

2:43

and Theological Development.

2:46

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Could you say a little bit about what that work was?

2:50

Sounds interesting.

2:53

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Sure, I was,

2:54

let's see (mumbles).

2:59

I provided the oversight for an annual spiritual growth

3:01

study that dealt with social issues from a spiritual,

3:05

theological and biblical perspective.

3:11

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I'm sorry, that was social issues you said?

3:16

It broke up just a little bit.

3:18

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Yes.

3:19

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Got it, good.

3:20

Sorry.

3:21

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No problem.

3:22

And always feel free to clarify because I know it's Skype.

3:24

(laughing)

3:27

So, and I ran workshops and developed curriculum

3:29

for leadership development for our,

3:34

basically state level groups, our conference,

3:38

United Methodist Women's leadership.

3:39

And every year we would have a school Christian mission

3:43

and we would implement some of that leadership training

3:46

there and, along with the spiritual growth studies

3:50

in that locale.

3:54

And, one of the other things that I did was

3:57

I ran what was called Christian Disciplines Workshops,

4:00

which provided a much more in depth weekend experience

4:05

for conference level women's leadership.

4:11

(audio cuts out)

4:16

And for the district level as well that were attended

4:18

to provide, how do you do theology?

4:22

How do you do biblical research?

4:26

You know, study, in a United Methodist approach

4:28

and in order to deal with the issues that you

4:32

have back at school, we're committed to dealing with.

4:37

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Very interesting.

4:40

How long were you in that position, Ann?

4:41

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17 years.

4:43

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17 years, okay, yeah, you said that.

4:44

What work or ministry did you do after Re-Imagining?

4:46

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I kept my job so I continued to do that work.

4:51

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Good.

4:55

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Yeah, so I know some people lost their jobs.

4:56

I was instrumental.

5:00

I organized the entire group that attended

5:01

from the United Methodist Women.

5:04

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Oh.

5:06

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Yeah and that was, you know, we learn about the event

5:08

and then I ran through our usual procedures

5:12

and got permission to fund, I think we had about,

5:17

I would say 15 people there and that could be verified

5:23

at my fingertips, but about that 'cause we had

5:27

a handful of directors from our board of directors.

5:33

And they are all elected from the conferences

5:39

and the jurisdictions and then we had

5:42

about 10 representatives from two groups.

5:45

One was this spiritual growth coordinators

5:53

at the conference level and the other group was

6:00

vice presidents who were in charge of programming

6:03

at the conference level.

6:06

So we had about, I would say about 15 people total,

6:07

roughly.

6:10

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Yeah, actually I was looking because I have,

6:11

I had a fact sheet from Joyce Sohl, the director,

6:15

and she kind of listed that out.

6:19

So, those numbers are there but that's fine.

6:21

As you said, I can check that out.

6:23

I'm really interested in what made you decide

6:25

to organize that, to go to Re-Imagining.

6:27

Why that conference?

6:30

What did you know about it or hear about it?

6:32

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Well, I had already read, and I'm trying to think

6:36

of the name of book,

6:40

Hal Taussig's book on--

6:43

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Wisdom's Feast?

6:47

Yes.

6:48

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He co-wrote that, right?

6:50

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Right.

6:51

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Who did he write that with?

6:52

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Susan Cady, became Susan Cady Cole.

6:53

And Marian, she was from Grailville,

6:58

a sister from Grailville.

7:02

And right now--

7:03

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Marian Ronan.

7:04

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That's it, that's it.

7:05

Yes.

7:06

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Marian Ronan was my adviser when I was at Grailville.

7:07

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Oh, okay.

7:11

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One of two advisors at Grailville.

7:13

And the other was Joan Mark.

7:15

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Oh.

7:17

Presbyterian?

7:18

Or no?

7:20

Yeah.

7:21

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Yes.

7:22

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Oh really?

7:22

Okay, yes.

7:23

I interviewed her earlier too.

7:24

That's amazing.

7:26

So you knew about Sophia obviously.

7:28

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I did.

7:31

I actually was not expecting,

7:32

I'm not sure what I expected,

7:36

all I knew was that this was an ecumenical event

7:38

and the known people in leadership,

7:41

Jeanne Audrey Powers was among the leaders

7:45

so that was institutional connections.

7:49

And, so we said let's get a delegation going.

7:53

You know?

7:57

And so off we went.

7:58

I'd seen the list of speakers, as I recall,

7:59

and I said, oh yeah, we need to be here.

8:03

But I was not necessarily expecting Sophia.

8:06

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Okay.

8:12

Oh, yes, I see.

8:14

But you saw the speakers, yeah.

8:16

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I did, yeah.

8:17

And so I remember the moment vividly when,

8:19

I mean, it may have been the blessing,

8:25

the blessed Sophia, grand provision within whatever,

8:27

it may have been then or the end of the first night

8:30

when I realized, oh my goodness,

8:36

this is gonna be so controversial.

8:39

It became crystal clear.

8:45

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Really?

8:48

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Yes.

8:49

And I remember I had to have a little person to person talk

8:51

with myself and I said, alright, now what am I gonna do?

8:56

Am I going to panic or am I going to enjoy myself?

9:01

And then deal with whatever fall out that happens later.

9:08

And I decided, in that moment, to enjoy myself

9:11

and participate and what comes, will come.

9:14

Yeah.

9:19

But I knew, it was so like oh my gosh, I did not

9:20

quite realize.

9:24

'Cause I knew the controversy had already started

9:26

around the Sophia Wisdom Theology and in the right wing

9:29

of the United Methodist Church.

9:34

It was almost, it wasn't full blown

9:36

but it was very intense already.

9:40

And so, like, oh, now we're in it.

9:42

So, there was that moment.

9:46

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Wow.

9:48

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I knew there was gonna (mumbles) and I said,

9:50

oh, here we go.

9:55

And I was right.

9:56

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You were right.

9:58

Boy, were you right.

9:58

I want to get back to that.

9:59

Before we do, I just wanted to follow up,

10:00

what kind of work or ministry are you doing now, Ann?

10:02

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Well, let me give you just a brief overview.

10:07

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Please.

10:09

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I segued off of the United Methodist Women's work

10:10

to early retirement and had a year to kind of contemplate

10:13

where I wanted to go, did some entrepreneurial kind of

10:19

exploration and began as a free lancer.

10:21

No, sorry.

10:27

For four years, I was at the Gay Lesbian Alliance

10:28

against defamation as their first Director of Religion.

10:31

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Really?

10:35

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Yeah, religion, faith, and values to be precise

10:37

and so I worked for them for five years.

10:41

So I went from the church, looking over my shoulder

10:44

for being lesbian, and to the LGBT world,

10:47

having to explain myself as religious.

10:51

(laughing)

10:54

But it was great.

10:57

People actually were very kind.

10:59

It took us all a little while to get over the shock

11:01

of having a religion person in a major LGBT organization.

11:03

And, but a lot of people came to me and sort of confessed

11:10

their wayward ways.

11:13

So, it's okay, you know?

11:15

(laughing)

11:16

And then so the ongoing hunger for a safe space

11:18

to be spiritual that was really deeply expressed.

11:22

So, I did four years of that and in that I worked with,

11:25

that was an incredible experience of working with

11:30

probably 25 different LGBT denominationally based

11:33

faith groups.

11:38

One denomination might have four different faith groups

11:40

and I worked with all of them.

11:43

And, four LGBT faith groups.

11:47

And then helping them with journalism,

11:49

with getting press releases, how to get journalists

11:52

to show up to their events, message, do talking points,

11:54

do interviews, all that.

11:59

And I learned all of that from GLAD.

12:00

I have (audio cuts out).

12:03

But they didn't really know what they wanted

12:05

their religion person to do so once they told me,

12:07

I got it clear that they really didn't know

12:10

what they wanted me to do, they had a good idea

12:11

but they knew I was supposed to do something

12:14

but they weren't really sure what.

12:16

I said, okay, good.

12:18

I know what I need to do and that's when I just networked

12:18

with all of the (mumbles).

12:21

So that's four years and now I--

12:24

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Can I just interrupt for one second

12:26

because I'm dying to know, what motivated them

12:27

to decide they wanted someone to do religion, faith,

12:29

and values?

12:31

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Well, it's,

12:33

it really boiled down to a couple,

12:37

there are about five major funders that get

12:42

the key people who got foundations connected to them,

12:44

who get, mostly white gay men, who get together

12:47

every year at a sort of retreat to talk about

12:50

where they want to go next and, you know,

12:52

and they finally came to the conclusion

12:55

that maybe we should do something about religion.

12:59

Duh, you know?

13:02

And, kind of one of those moments.

13:03

And, they began to fund the LGBT faith groups directly

13:07

and they funded the national secular groups

13:12

to have an angle on religion.

13:16

And so that's how those positions got established.

13:18

So it was a very historic moment

13:22

and in our humble opinion marriage equality was won

13:24

because of the faith leaders and in particular,

13:31

particularly, the black faith leaders who stepped up

13:34

in Maryland, Washington D.C., to begin the watershed moment

13:37

when marriage equality came across.

13:42

So, it's very historic and it was thrilling

13:45

to be a part of it, honestly.

13:50

Really thrilling.

13:51

And so now, I spun myself off of GLAD and,

13:53

'cause, oh my gosh, that was an intense organization.

13:59

(laughing)

14:02

I love GLAD, I speak very highly of it,

14:03

but it can make people crazy because I decided

14:05

(laughing)

14:08

like one year at GLAD is a little bit like dog years.

14:09

You know?

14:13

It's like (laughing).

14:14

Isn't that a funny idea?

14:15

I got in trouble for saying that once.

14:17

(laughing)

14:19

But it's a very intense organization

14:21

but does incredible work and it was a fantastic platform

14:24

to do the work I wanted to do.

14:28

Fantastic.

14:30

So then off I went, a little bit in survival mode,

14:31

and became a consultant in taking the knowledge

14:35

that I gained at GLAD and all the programmatic ideas

14:39

and knowledge that I experienced through

14:43

the United Methodist Women and have been a consultant

14:45

ever since.

14:49

Now, right now, let's see, over the years,

14:50

because I've worked with Presbyterians since then

14:52

as they gained, they dropped their prohibition

14:54

and welcomed marriage.

14:58

(speaker garbling)

15:01

But afterwards, Presbyterians and a major part

15:05

of our work has been following community churches.

15:10

I've been a primary consultant for them of communications.

15:13

And, but I'm beginning to work with kinship,

15:18

which (speaker garbling).

15:21

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A Seventh Day Adventist Group you said?

15:24

Yes.

15:27

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Yeah, LGBT group, yes.

15:28

Go figure.

15:29

And, so I've been working with them

15:32

on a little bit of programming development.

15:34

You know, fundraising and communications.

15:37

But my main, one of my main pieces of work

15:40

that I'm doing right now is Joseph Tolton and I

15:42

have been working for five years on the Fellowship Global,

15:47

which is an organization aimed at identifying

15:53

and expanding progressive faith voices in Africa.

15:59

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Really?

16:04

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Yes.

16:05

So east and west Africa.

16:07

If you've gone to Kenya, Rwanda, Democratic Republic

16:09

of Congo, and a little bit of Cote d'Ivoire in West Africa.

16:12

So yeah, it's like, I guess I've never shied away

16:16

from a challenge.

16:20

(laughing)

16:21

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No.

16:22

That is fascinating, wow.

16:23

Well, I'd love to talk about all of this.

16:25

It's so interesting.

16:28

I'd better move back to Re-imagining.

16:29

But this is fascinating.

16:31

And we'll get back to it when we talk about the future,

16:33

I think, where you see, where Re-imagining needs to happen.

16:34

So we'll get back to it but one last question,

16:37

background question.

16:40

How and when did you become aware of feminist theology?

16:41

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Well, perhaps in college in 1973, 74.

16:46

I remember I was in a colloquium with one

16:54

of my religion professors and he gave as, like,

17:01

oh, you should be sure to read as an extra credit,

17:06

Rosemary Ruether.

17:12

Well none of us did.

17:15

(laughing)

17:16

In true student fashion, you know, it was like,

17:18

oh yeah, by the way, read Rosemary Ruether.

17:21

And at the end he's like, well, did anybody read that?

17:25

I was like, no, we were too busy.

17:28

'Cause it wasn't for curriculum.

17:30

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Right.

17:32

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But that was the first time I really had heard of her.

17:33

Feminism was not really on my radar, per say, in college.

17:37

There were some feminists women but, oh my gosh,

17:42

were they harassed in college.

17:44

I didn't know what it meant, honestly.

17:49

By the time, I did a two year volunteer program

17:56

right out of college and was kind of immersed

17:59

a little bit in, well okay, I wasn't because,

18:03

it was like a six week program and about three weeks

18:06

into the program of the training, a woman showed up

18:13

who was at Saint Paul's School of Theology

18:16

in Kansas City.

18:19

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Oh yes.

18:20

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And she asked the question, have you already begun talking

18:21

about women's feminism and women's issues?

18:24

And all the leaders kind of shrank down.

18:28

It was kind of like that moment when they asked

18:30

about Rosemary Ruether.

18:32

It was like, no.

18:32

(laughing)

18:34

It was mostly women in the room and she goes,

18:36

how could you?

18:39

And so, that was my introduction and it blossomed

18:40

from there.

18:46

I was more intensely dealing with being gay in college

18:48

and trying to figure that out and creating my own

18:53

personal escape program.

18:56

Like, making deals with God and all that stuff.

18:58

Survive myself and all that.

19:00

And through that same church base,

19:04

the United Methodist base program,

19:06

was introduced in the training to openly gay people

19:08

and lesbian people so the irony of church, right?

19:11

Yeah.

19:16

So that was sort of my introduction to feminism

19:18

and to LGBT stuff.

19:21

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Wow, fascinating.

19:24

You started talking about your initial introduction

19:25

at Re-Imagining, going to the '93 conference

19:29

which is the one you went to, and you talked about

19:32

that Blessed Sophia.

19:34

Could you talk about other moments that struck you

19:36

during that time, that you particularly remember?

19:39

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Sure.

19:42

Predictably, the moment when all the lesbians

19:44

were invited on the stage and--

19:46

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Can I ask, did you join them?

19:50

Did you feel like you could join--

19:52

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No, I did not.

19:53

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Yeah, understandable.

19:54

Yep.

19:55

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And they, and I remember them saying that were many women

19:56

in the room who are not free to join us on the stage

20:02

for the risk of their jobs and their families

20:05

and many other things.

20:08

So, and I got back and Joyce Sohl, in her enumerable way,

20:09

although I will imitate it.

20:17

(laughing)

20:18

Alright, did anybody go up on the stage?

20:22

And everybody said, no, nobody went up.

20:26

And, so she says, well good.

20:31

(laughing)

20:32

(mumbles)

20:34

She was very supportive, as much as she could be,

20:36

but did not feel like she could defend people

20:40

if it became a blow out situation.

20:44

So that was one moment.

20:48

You know--

20:53

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Wait, can I just interrupt for a minute?

20:54

How did it feel to see that?

20:55

I'm sorry.

20:57

But how did that feel to see those women go up there

20:58

and the response that they got?

21:00

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Oh, it was both devastating and wonderful

21:04

all at the same time, not being able to go up.

21:06

Because when I was in seminary, I was totally out.

21:12

I was out, I was highly political.

21:17

I lived in Virginia for five years.

21:20

I was the sort of go-to person for panels of out lesbians

21:22

and my partner at the time

21:25

and I were in the local newspaper.

21:27

And I was doing campus ministry at the time

21:30

as a two year volunteer, it was stipended.

21:33

So, I was very much organizing, enrichment

21:39

of lesbian feminists in the network of a group

21:44

called Gay Awareness and Perspectives

21:48

so I was extremely political.

21:50

I was on the Catholic, I helped found the dignity

21:52

and the integrity chapters and the Methodist

21:56

affirmation chapters in Richmond during that time.

21:59

And then was on the study commission from the diocese

22:05

of Richmond for the Catholics and the diocese of,

22:08

I guess it's probably, I don't remember,

22:15

the Episcopal diocese of Richmond.

22:17

Maybe that's what it was called.

22:19

I was on their study commission for human sexuality

22:20

as well.

22:23

So I was very ecumenical then as well as now.

22:25

And, I was involved in the United Methodist

22:28

human sexuality workshop.

22:32

It was not the same.

22:34

It was more of a curriculum that they had developed

22:36

at the national level and implemented

22:40

at the conference level and then they identified leaders

22:42

from that training to do district level training

22:46

and church level training for the United Methodists.

22:51

And I proceeded to announce that I was considering

22:54

having a child but I wasn't sure I was gonna get married.

22:57

(speaker garbling)

23:02

(laughing)

23:06

So I was not invited to be one of those leaders.

23:08

So those are some of the pieces, that background, and,

23:12

so I don't know how we got back to that.

23:18

But I was, you know, strong background and a big political

23:20

icon (speaker garbling).

23:24

So--

23:26

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I'm sorry.

23:27

I'm losing you a little bit.

23:27

Can we just wait a second?

23:29

I'm sorry.

23:30

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Yeah, I was muttering.

23:32

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Well, it was getting, the connection's not so great.

23:33

But, you were saying, so you had a strong background

23:36

in being political so that moment was both devastating

23:38

and wonderful.

23:41

And I interrupted you there.

23:44

You were talking about other moments

23:45

but I wanted to hear about that.

23:46

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Right, right.

23:48

So, so being in the closet was like challenging

23:50

and it takes a toll.

23:55

So that was a moment at Re-Imagining that was difficult.

23:57

And, you know, I was like, alright fine.

24:02

I'm just not gonna be able to go up and I won't

24:05

but I wanted to.

24:06

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Oh sure.

24:09

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So other moments, you know,

24:10

the apple.

24:14

Rita Nakashima Brock always knocked my socks off.

24:17

She's a really, has done some amazing work.

24:21

And she did some amazing background work

24:25

around the right wing, all denominations

24:30

that was really very watershed.

24:35

Some of that was a little later.

24:41

So the theological work that they did,

24:45

Trinitarian theological work is not a moment

24:51

but it's the motif and research that they did was amazing.

24:54

Now, one of the things that happened to me

25:01

is when I got home, and we can go back to other moments

25:04

as I, it's been a long a time.

25:09

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Yes, it has.

25:11

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But one of the things that it forced me to do

25:15

was really to do some research for myself

25:18

about early church theology, Trinitarian,

25:21

wisdom literature, and how it is in a world

25:25

with scripture and I became the resident expert

25:30

on wisdom literature and all that.

25:35

And I actually went back to graduate school

25:38

in early church theology as part of my self-education

25:42

on that.

25:47

Worked with Virginia Burrus in all the early church stuff.

25:48

I've done all the coursework.

25:54

And I think I got what I needed out of that.

25:55

It would've been nice to have a PhD but 9/11 hit

25:58

and the economic realities bottomed out

26:01

for United Methodist Women, which meant I didn't have

26:05

as much support staff and all of that

26:08

or permission and so the PhD thing went on a back burner

26:10

and has not ever gotten to the front burner.

26:14

But, the class, the coursework was a result

26:17

of me already learning about the Trinitarian theology

26:20

and how less than gendered it was

26:26

than what it has it become.

26:30

Or at least complicated in its gender identities.

26:33

So I was like these women did their homework.

26:37

-

Yes.

26:41

-

They knew what they were talking about completely.

26:42

And this was not casual.

26:45

And for it to get the kind of blow back it did

26:48

was, you know, a sad statement about the total church,

26:50

about our lack of knowledge

26:55

and how easily we're manipulated.

26:57

But it was a sad statement about the blatant disregard

26:58

for facts and for the actual realities in the old church

27:02

that the right wing chose to follow.

27:09

-

Yes, yes.

27:11

Very good.

27:14

Well, should we move to the backlash

27:15

or did you want to talk about other moments?

27:18

What makes sense to you at this point?

27:20

-

Well.

27:23

Let me talk about another moment.

27:30

I think it was after the first night

27:34

but I'm not sure.

27:36

It may have been the first morning.

27:38

But when the whole room realized how controversial.

27:40

I need to remember this.

27:51

I'm trying to decide if this was after,

27:59

I don't think it was after the lesbian coming to the stage.

28:02

I think it was when, it was when it was clear to everybody

28:06

that we were talking about feminine imagery of God

28:12

in full Trinitarian outline.

28:17

God of the mother, Sophia, and the holy spirit Roha,

28:24

and that some of the controversy had already surfaced

28:30

and (garbling) and the people that had been invited,

28:35

the program and the spiritual development people.

28:41

We convened a meeting because people were very concerned.

28:45

We did.

28:49

And I had to talk them down.

28:54

(laughing)

28:57

And I'm trying to remember exactly

28:59

what the conversation was.

29:00

It was very difficult to remember.

29:02

But I had to lay it out for them an understanding

29:12

in metaphor and gender notions of divinity

29:16

and all of that.

29:23

It's not like it wasn't, I don't think I told them

29:24

anything new but I said, let's not panic here.

29:26

This is (mumbles).

29:32

I kind of put them through my moment.

29:34

It's like, so what are you gonna do?

29:36

How do you wanna handle this?

29:38

And, it was,

29:40

I downplayed it but and I tried to explain it.

29:47

And, it seemed to be adequate for the moment.

29:51

And the blow back later did not come

29:55

from the directors particularly.

30:00

Nor from the members from the conference level.

30:03

I don't think we had hardly any critique from them.

30:08

So that was another moment.

30:12

Who were the speakers?

30:20

Would you remind me the names of some of the speakers?

30:21

-

Chung Hyun Kyung, Barbara Lundblad, Mary Bednarowski,

30:25

Lois Wilson, Virginia Ramey Mollenkott,

30:33

there were lots more.

30:40

Those are the ones that are just coming to the top

30:41

of my head.

30:42

Joan Martin.

30:43

-

Okay, yeah.

30:44

Chung Hyun Kyung is always the dramatist

30:47

and she did a great job during that time of the,

30:51

I think she used the burning imagery, right?

30:59

Magic burning paper.

31:03

So, she was always a show person.

31:07

But with solid theology behind it.

31:14

And Barbara Lundblad, I don't remember her sermon

31:19

that night but she's an all-time favorite of mine.

31:24

She and I are friends and I went to her church

31:27

when she was at the Lutheran church

31:30

in upper Manhattan occasionally.

31:32

I should've gone more often.

31:35

Like, the best preaching I've ever heard in my life

31:36

and I can't get up early in the morning.

31:38

You kind of know after the fact that like

31:42

you should've gotten up everyday but be that as it may,

31:45

she was always a show stopper preacher.

31:51

Yeah, so it was quite a cast of characters

31:56

and I think that was one of the obvious draw.

32:01

Some of my friends like Joan Martin.

32:05

Alright, so now I'll--

32:07

-

Can I just make sure I understand something?

32:09

When you said you had to talk them down, what did that mean?

32:12

Were thinking of leaving?

32:15

Were they, I mean, what was the--

32:17

-

No, they were just upset.

32:19

This is kind of like what are we gonna tell people

32:22

when we go home?

32:26

-

Yeah.

32:27

Were they upset because they,

32:28

was it their reaction?

32:30

I mean, was it their reaction, they didn't like it

32:32

or they were worried about what the repercussions would be

32:34

or a combination?

32:37

-

A little combination.

32:40

Sort of like, what is this?

32:45

How are we supposed to be reacting to this?

32:50

Is this wrong kind of question.

32:55

And, what are we gonna say to people when we go home?

33:00

I don't know that, none of us knew exactly

33:03

what kind of bad press we were gonna get.

33:08

We didn't know at that moment.

33:12

We didn't know if we were gonna get it

33:14

or what kind it would be but they knew that this was content

33:16

that was pretty unfamiliar and kind of over the top

33:19

for them.

33:22

And so, I had to just console them a little bit

33:23

and say, you know, this is theology.

33:27

And, I don't think,

33:32

it's kind of a blur so I had read the Taussig book

33:40

about it and I had already done some writing on it,

33:46

sort of reacting to it as I recall.

33:51

So I had some knowledge of that.

33:54

It's like, what is Sophia?

33:56

And I could explain a little bit to them.

33:57

But it was really after I had gotten back

34:00

that I became immersed in it and so I don't know

34:02

how detailed of information,

34:08

and probably I gave them plenty,

34:11

just around the female metaphor for God.

34:13

So, that's probably what, and the Sophia thing,

34:18

and it's like, whatever.

34:21

So it was, I think, more about the gender of God

34:22

than anything as I recall.

34:27

-

Yes, yes.

34:29

So you came back and what happened then?

34:32

First of all, what happened to you personally

34:35

when you got back in terms of the back lash?

34:37

-

Yeah.

34:41

Well, it didn't take long for the good news people

34:43

to put out some really bad press

34:46

and the,

34:48

what's the Presbyterian--

34:54

-

Presbyterian layman?

34:55

-

Yes, yeah.

34:56

And, I think it was both of them that,

34:58

and I describe it nowadays when I tell people about it,

35:04

it's like they took women's theology

35:07

and made pornography out of it.

35:10

And, they put, you know, I described a tryptic

35:15

that was being painted and the tryptic was very important

35:18

and very, that's whole 'nother moment, very captivating.

35:24

The entire time of it being created and for them

35:28

to take a picture of the rear end of Eve

35:32

and put it on their cover, that's what I mean

35:39

by creating pornography out of women's theology.

35:41

And then the whole, oh good grief, the milk and honey thing

35:44

was ridiculous because it's like I'm the honey pot.

35:49

I had never even heard of that derogatory

35:55

kind of understanding of sexuality for women

35:58

and it's like, well, what about the land of milk and honey?

36:01

Hello, you know.

36:05

It's like totally familiar biblical references.

36:07

So yeah, that started really making the circles

36:10

and the good news, people created their own version of that

36:15

and letters and all that.

36:20

We used to get a massive letters that had been

36:21

kind of mass produced from local women

36:26

and some conference level women.

36:31

So, Joyce Sohl was DGS, Deputy General Secretary,

36:37

when I was in the middle of this and I have to

36:43

tip my hat, I even have one on,

36:49

but tip my hat to her that I did not get fired

36:51

because I was the point person for getting people there.

36:56

And she could have fired me easily if she had chosen to.

37:00

But she took a lot of heat herself and did her share

37:03

of defending what had happened.

37:10

Now, one of the things that I probably,

37:13

now, this is confessional time,

37:16

I offered to respond to many of the letters

37:22

and I'm a very good letter writer

37:27

and I make it very personal and really compassionate.

37:29

I don't turn people off.

37:32

I consider it a mystery.

37:34

But there were so many and I did not have

37:36

a boiler plate letter and they sat there, they sat there,

37:39

and they sat there and a lot of them did not

37:43

ever get an answer.

37:45

So that's a little confessional.

37:46

They should've gotten an answer but they didn't.

37:48

So, Joyce answered some but on the other hand,

37:53

I don't know that they wanted an answer because it was

37:57

more of just like, we've heard this and you shouldn't

38:00

have done that.

38:04

We heard this, you shouldn't have done that.

38:06

And boom.

38:07

And so they had already made up their minds.

38:08

(mumbles)

38:11

And it gets played out in the public arena as well.

38:12

So the arguments that would laid out in a written letter

38:16

are the arguments that were laid out in the public arena.

38:18

But, I have to say, that the whole event I would describe

38:21

as theological terrorism.

38:26

-

Say some more about this.

38:29

Why theological terrorism?

38:31

-

Because it was a warning signal to all women

38:33

that you will not go here and if you do,

38:38

you will pay dearly.

38:43

And, from that point on, if you said the word Sophia

38:46

or even wisdom among United Methodist Women's leadership,

38:51

especially at the highest level,

38:54

they broke out into fearful gibbles.

38:56

Like, why would say that?

39:03

Don't say that, don't say that.

39:05

I mean, literally.

39:08

And I would always just say why would you act that way

39:12

around theology that's core to the bible?

39:15

It's like oh, you know, you know, you know.

39:17

I was like, no, I don't know.

39:19

And I would really press people because it's a very

39:21

unhelpful response and people who should know better.

39:24

Oh, no don't talk about that.

39:30

Don't say that.

39:31

We'll get into trouble.

39:32

It's like no, I'm not gonna go for that.

39:33

So that's why I call it theological terrorism

39:39

because people were afraid for their jobs,

39:41

their livelihoods and permanently damaged

39:43

in terms of women's imagery and leadership.

39:47

So that's why I would call it that.

39:53

-

You said you got support from Joyce.

39:56

Did you get support from other ways from people

39:59

in the church or?

40:02

-

Not particularly.

40:10

I mean, there were plenty of people who attended

40:12

and who heard about it later, wished they'd been there,

40:14

kind of folks that you would kind of predict

40:18

that would be supportive and that was good.

40:21

I ended up going not that long afterwards

40:26

to western North Carolina conference,

40:29

United Methodist women.

40:34

Oh my goodness, that was quite an experience.

40:36

-

What happened?

40:40

-

They were armed for bear as we say in the Midwest.

40:42

They were not happy and there were two or three women,

40:47

I think it was one of the spiritual disciplines workshops

40:50

that I described.

40:54

-

Yes.

40:56

-

And we really had to kind of set aside the primary

40:57

curriculum in order to discuss and come to some kind of

40:59

prayerful agreement to disagree and to,

41:04

you know, because they just, they had bought hook, line,

41:10

and sinker, the whole pagan, goddess worshiping,

41:13

sex crazed conclave.

41:15

They had bought into that hook, line, and sinker.

41:21

You know, including sort of devil worshiping,

41:24

demon possession almost.

41:27

That kind of level of who are you, why are you here,

41:29

and aren't you Satan kind of almost.

41:34

And, there were a couple women who were just in a frenzy,

41:38

in a frenzy, and so they were dominating

41:42

the entire conversation.

41:46

And so, I had the group holding hands and praying.

41:48

(garbling)

41:56

Not like we don't do that normally but it's like

41:58

a little bit of emergency prayer.

42:01

It's like, can we see the humanity in each other.

42:03

And, trying to lay out the Trinitarian theology

42:09

that was at work and that this was not any kind of heresy

42:15

at all.

42:19

But, the minute you, I had not had my GLAD media training

42:21

so I didn't necessarily know that you shouldn't repeat

42:27

the word heresy.

42:30

(laughing)

42:32

But at the same time, helped them work through

42:34

some of their frightening concerns.

42:37

-

How did they react, Ann?

42:40

-

Well, I think there were those you were just watching

42:44

this punching fight, theological knock down, drag out,

42:47

and others who wanted to have sincere questions,

42:54

and then there were the frenzied people.

42:57

So, I don't know if I did a decent job or not.

43:00

I know we stayed together, nobody left,

43:06

and that's probably significant.

43:10

So I don't know.

43:16

It was what it was.

43:18

But it was intense (laughing).

43:19

-

I bet it was.

43:22

And I just have to ask, how was your relationship

43:23

with the other women from the division who had gone

43:26

to the conference?

43:28

-

Fine.

43:35

Nothing of great note.

43:38

People were, besides what I described to you,

43:40

the ongoing kind of fall out, most people just didn't

43:43

want to have anything to do with it at that point.

43:46

And so, they, I couldn't even tell you

43:50

which staff were there.

43:55

Oh, Sammy Ruby was there.

43:57

Do you know Sammy Ruby?

43:58

-

I don't, no.

44:00

-

She would be a great person.

44:01

-

Okay, good.

44:03

-

She's in Ohio.

44:04

-

Okay, great.

44:06

-

She might remember a whole other side of it.

44:08

-

Sure.

44:12

-

And I could try to, hold on for a second.

44:13

Do you know what town Sandy Ruby lives in.

44:17

(speaking softly)

44:23

Oh, in Indiana.

44:25

Okay.

44:26

Because she was at Re-Imagining.

44:28

We're talking about Re-Imagining Women's (mumbles).

44:32

She's doing an archive for (mumbles).

44:34

Do you remember who else was at Re-Imagining?

44:37

Who else from, anybody from your conference?

44:40

(woman speaking softly)

44:43

Was she there?

44:49

Ah, great.

44:50

(woman speaking softly)

44:53

I'll have to pick their brains if I could remember, yeah.

44:59

-

Maybe an email later?

45:05

Would that work?

45:06

Would that work?

45:08

-

Yeah, Deanna Rodriguez is another person, yeah,

45:09

we'll try to remember a couple of those people.

45:13

-

Good, I can follow up with an email.

45:14

That would be great.

45:16

How do you account for this back lash?

45:19

-

It was in the works.

45:24

-

Say some more.

45:26

-

It was in the works.

45:27

The Institute for Religion and Democracy,

45:29

as far as I understand, was a mainstreaming

45:30

of a religion office under Reagan.

45:36

And, they spun themselves off and they established

45:41

three targets and there was a grant proposal

45:49

that Joyce Sohl knows about.

45:51

Oh you should, a little more background

45:53

that you might want to take a look at--

45:56

-

Absolutely.

45:58

-

Is a book called, United Methodism at Risk.

46:00

-

I have that, yes.

46:03

-

Okay.

46:05

-

Thank you.

46:06

-

In the back of that is a grant proposal,

46:06

an appendix, a grant proposal from the Institute

46:09

for Religion and Democracy.

46:13

It'll give you the year and all of that.

46:15

That targeted the Episcopal church,

46:19

the United Methodist church, and the Presbyterian church,

46:21

U.S.A.

46:24

And so, we have had been,

46:25

it all started really with the Iraq contra reality

46:29

and once, as well as apartheid South Africa.

46:35

The churches were having a major influence

46:40

and Reagan would have none of that,

46:42

obviously from the history that got lived out.

46:44

He was against breaking down apartheid.

46:48

Et cetera.

46:53

So he set up this religion office in order to

46:54

manage, try to undermine the progressive voice

46:57

of our Protestants and the irony was birthed.

47:02

It became funded on its own.

47:05

And Mark Tully of the United Methodist Good News

47:08

because the point person in terms of United Methodist.

47:11

And when he was outed as a CIA agent or employee

47:14

of the CIA, his excuse was well, CIA people

47:19

have to go to church too.

47:24

But his specialty was (audio cuts out).

47:27

-

His specialty was?

47:34

I missed that.

47:36

-

West Africa.

47:37

-

West Africa, okay.

47:38

-

And so some of the fall out of all of this,

47:40

decades, 40 years or whatever, between then and now,

47:43

is that now West Africa that we're gonna have,

47:48

this next general conference we're gonna have

47:55

close to 40% African delegates and they are not always

47:56

in tune with Wesleyan theology and history.

48:06

Let's put it that way.

48:11

Now, there's change happening and part of what

48:13

we're doing in Africa is raising up the voices.

48:14

We're working directly with United Methodist Africans

48:17

and there is not a monolithic world view

48:20

which is very important to remember.

48:26

But the trajectory from the beginning of the right wing

48:28

movement and with a watershed moment

48:33

of (garbling) was roughly to today and how that

48:36

has continued to, they've continued to try to restructure

48:42

the church and if you can't, with all of the denominations,

48:45

and many of them, you know, had major fall out

48:51

from Re-Imagining.

48:54

If you cannot take, there were a couple different goals.

48:56

One is to divide up the inner church center

48:59

and break it open and get denominations

49:04

to move away from each so you no longer have

49:07

this coordinating hub of the inner church center.

49:11

So, divide up the churches.

49:15

Attack them on any issue whatsoever.

49:19

They don't care about gay people,

49:24

they don't care about abortion,

49:26

they don't care about women.

49:28

But whatever issue is handy, attack the church,

49:30

undermine the church, break it up.

49:33

And, if possible, take it over.

49:35

And one of the strategies was also

49:39

to create parallel structures so that if the church was

49:40

ever so wobbly that there's this parallel structure

49:45

that could just step in.

49:49

And so all mission sending society for the United Methodist

49:51

parallel, the seminaries, and of course,

49:54

each of those had its own life and was able to

49:58

drain resources away from progressive parts

50:01

of the United Methodist church.

50:06

So, all of that is not unrelated to the Re-Imagining moment.

50:09

It was a particular moment where they,

50:15

for the first time honestly,

50:18

they were able to attack the United Methodist women

50:21

and get real traction.

50:23

They had been attacking around abortion

50:26

and around feminism and all that

50:29

and they have not really even gotten traction on abortion.

50:30

Among some people, yes, but mostly people who were just

50:35

naysayers anyway.

50:38

But, this was it.

50:40

And this one shocked.

50:43

The whole sexualization of theology

50:44

and the accusation of goddess worshiping.

50:47

That shocked the average human Methodist woman.

50:53

And so that was the moment when there were able to get

50:57

some traction.

50:59

And, permanent damage to the unity of the denomination

51:02

and respect for United Methodist women.

51:06

-

So you said it was permanent damage?

51:10

Could you say a little bit more about how that was?

51:13

-

Well, kind of the internalized oppression

51:15

of like, oh don't say Sophia.

51:18

That kind of piece.

51:19

And, the inability to, really up until then,

51:21

United Methodist women felt free to be on the cutting edge

51:29

of theology and issues.

51:32

After that, you will not see that.

51:35

(mumbles)

51:37

There were issues that continued to be raised

51:38

but in terms of willingness to advocate

51:40

around abortion, it was pretty much gone.

51:45

Really gone.

51:50

They were not willing to have any more major blow back.

51:53

You cannot find (garbling) substantive actions

51:57

besides a patch approach to the cope of discipline.

52:02

That's it.

52:07

So I would say, yeah, that's permanent damage

52:09

that has not been recovered.

52:12

-

And you think it was because the charges of,

52:15

they could make the charge of goddess worship

52:18

and the sexual issues and that was?

52:20

-

They were able to get enough traction

52:23

and enough controversy that United Methodist women

52:26

and the leadership did not want to deal with that

52:31

ever again.

52:35

And, we also had some leadership transitions

52:37

that went for better, for worse.

52:40

After Joyce Sohl then we had Jan Love

52:43

and she only stayed two years.

52:47

She just took the job, I won't say anything

52:49

because it's on tape, but she did not enjoy her time

52:52

with United Methodist women.

52:55

And, she became the dean of the school in,

52:57

what's it called, in Atlanta.

53:04

-

The school, I'm sorry, I missed that.

53:07

-

In Atlanta.

53:08

What's the name of that?

53:09

-

Emory?

53:10

-

Yeah, Em.

53:11

-

Emory?

53:12

-

Yeah.

53:13

-

Candler.

53:14

-

Candler, thank you.

53:15

Which was a nice match for her because she really wanted

53:16

to be in the academic world and I think

53:19

it was a little bit shocking to be in the lay women's word.

53:21

Wait, this is not what I pictured it as.

53:24

Because United Methodist women had had this reputation

53:28

for being on the cutting edge but the organization

53:31

is everyday women.

53:34

You know?

53:35

But they are not

53:36

your highly informed everyday woman

53:39

but everyday women none the less.

53:43

And I think it was, she was not used to being

53:46

in an all women's environment and I think it was

53:48

a bit of a culture shock.

53:51

And so, two years later, she was gone.

53:52

And then, so those kinds of transitions blend themselves

53:54

to the need for stability.

53:58

And so you combine everything with that

54:05

and you get a less and less willingness to take risks

54:08

and the financial reality were dire over that time period

54:12

for United Methodist women and so there you get,

54:20

I think you can argue that the financial realities

54:22

were as important as Re-Imagining for the decreasing

54:26

willingness to (garbling) high risk moments.

54:31

-

And I don't know if you can answer this question.

54:36

If you can't, that's fine, but I know that

54:38

Maryanne Lundy in the Presbyterian church

54:40

lost her position in the women's division,

54:42

it was attacked but no one lost their position.

54:46

Do you have ideas on why that was

54:49

in terms of the way they were structured or anything?

54:52

-

I do.

54:54

-

Good, good, please, tell me.

54:55

-

My theory is, at least in part, is that the hierarchy,

55:01

the hierarchical nature of United Methodists

55:09

actually worked for us.

55:13

-

Say some more about that, interesting.

55:16

-

Well, with the Presbyterian structure

55:18

you have (garbling) of bishops and I'm trying to recall,

55:21

it seems to me like we garnered some support from bishops

55:34

and I can't remember who.

55:39

-

Yes.

55:41

-

I think it's a good question to ask other people.

55:42

-

Sure.

55:43

-

Joyce would remember better than I would.

55:45

-

Bishop Susan Morrison was a major person.

55:48

-

She was there too.

55:51

-

Yes, yes.

55:52

-

Yeah, so she would remember the bishops who were helpful.

55:54

But in any case, and I don't know if this makes any sense

55:59

at all but I felt like our structure was helpful

56:05

in protecting me.

56:08

I was not hung out to dry.

56:10

And so, I'm sorry I can't be more precise than that

56:13

at this point but I remember thinking vividly

56:17

that if I'd been in the Presbyterian structure,

56:20

I'd be gone.

56:23

-

Yes, yes.

56:24

And related to that, there was, and I don't know

56:25

if you recall this and that's fine,

56:28

but the bishops, United Methodist bishops

56:29

finally wrote a report on Sophia.

56:32

I don't know if you recall that?

56:34

-

That's right.

56:36

That's, and that's exactly what helped

56:37

because there was playing for time a little bit.

56:39

So they took the time to take the complaint seriously

56:44

and write the report and so we have the formal report.

56:48

So yeah, that was a moment of the hierarchy helping us

56:54

move through this.

56:58

-

Yes, yes.

56:59

Yes.

57:00

And how about a time of hope, a time of threat?

57:02

Do you recall that at all?

57:06

-

Yes.

57:08

Refresh my memory.

57:10

-

Sure, it was statement by a group of nine

57:12

United Methodist women, Jeanne Audrey Powers, for example,

57:14

you mentioned her earlier.

57:18

Bishop Morrison and they spoke out, had a press conference

57:20

on the International Women's Day.

57:23

-

All coming back to me.

57:25

-

Yeah.

57:27

-

Yeah, that was really strong statement as well.

57:29

I was trying to remember if I, I think I signed that

57:34

after the fact, you know.

57:37

I don't know if there's a collection of signatures.

57:39

-

There is, yeah.

57:41

And I can look.

57:43

There was a total, it started out with 800

57:44

and went well beyond that, so very possible, yes.

57:46

I can look.

57:50

-

I'm sure I was in there.

57:51

-

Yeah, yeah.

57:52

-

Had a J in front of my name, J. Ann Craig.

57:54

-

Right, yes.

57:56

Well, shall we move to, in the end,

57:57

how would you define Re-Imagining?

58:01

What was Re-Imagining in the end?

58:03

-

Re-Imagining was traditional theology

58:06

interpreted, Trinitarian theology, interpreted by women

58:11

who were misinterpreted in the after the fact

58:14

by people who only wanted to undermine all

58:23

of the denominations that's represented.

58:27

And the women who were there.

58:30

And a short.

58:33

-

Yeah, that's good.

58:34

In the end, when you look at the significance,

58:36

in the end, what aspects of this Re-Imagining were most

58:38

significant to you and why?

58:42

-

The seriousness of the theological work

58:45

and the biblical work that the women did.

58:48

So that's amazing and that was my take away

58:56

and the end, I took it seriously as well.

59:00

-

I'm impressed.

59:04

You went and did doctoral work because of this.

59:05

-

I did.

59:07

-

That is amazing, Ann.

59:08

(laughing)

59:09

You took it really seriously.

59:10

(laughing)

59:11

-

I did and I was like,

59:13

it was kind of a question of like,

59:15

what is this about?

59:16

Why are we so vicious with each other

59:19

and, you know, the one take away from my PhD work

59:21

is well, respect the way we do theology.

59:23

You know?

59:26

It's like out of our conflicts, come our theologies.

59:27

And, it's just, it's like, oh, okay.

59:31

Now I know I'm doing theology.

59:34

(laughing)

59:37

And at the heart of it, really in the thick of it.

59:40

And, you can say there was not literal blood on the floor

59:46

during this time and half in those periods

59:50

when there have been literal blood on the floor.

59:53

You know, people lost their lives

59:56

over these theological arguments.

59:57

So progress, maybe.

59:59

It's still vicious.

1:00:02

-

Yes, yeah, yeah.

1:00:04

There were charges of heresy but no burning at the stake,

1:00:06

literally.

1:00:08

(laughing)

1:00:09

-

Not literally.

1:00:11

-

Yeah.

1:00:12

Judging from your face, it felt like it came pretty close?

1:00:13

-

Probably when you lose your livelihood for folks.

1:00:17

And, you experience permanent harm and damage

1:00:21

to the psyche of women.

1:00:26

Yeah, and it's not harmless.

1:00:28

-

Exactly, you're right.

1:00:31

Yes, yeah.

1:00:33

How did your involvement in Re-Imagining

1:00:35

change your perspective on feminist theology and,

1:00:37

or on the church?

1:00:40

-

Well, I think one of the things I came away with,

1:00:43

that's a good question because it was one

1:00:45

of those moments where I said, oh, this is why women

1:00:49

should have PhDs.

1:00:54

That was a real like aha moment

1:00:58

because I was like why would anybody want to do that

1:01:00

and why should we be messing with all of that?

1:01:02

And I was like, that's why.

1:01:06

It's because there's scholarship that needs to be done

1:01:08

and women bring a completely different perspective on it.

1:01:12

And, they will read stuff that men will skip over.

1:01:19

Or downplay or misrepresent or whatever.

1:01:24

And, who reads it, who does the scholarship

1:01:29

makes all the difference.

1:01:32

-

Yes.

1:01:35

-

So that's big, that was big.

1:01:36

-

Yeah.

1:01:38

And then what would you say?

1:01:39

What specific contributions did Re-Imagining make

1:01:40

to Christian theology and, or liturgy?

1:01:42

-

Yeah, oh wow.

1:01:47

Thank you for that.

1:01:49

(laughing)

1:01:51

A whole liturgical piece that (mumbles) element.

1:01:52

Oh my goodness.

1:01:56

You know, the unveiling of the very first

1:01:58

sacramental, of the cups of the milk and the honey

1:02:05

and the wine.

1:02:11

The milk and honey, the water, and the wine cups.

1:02:13

Huge revelation.

1:02:16

You know?

1:02:19

-

Revelation in what way?

1:02:21

Of like, first of all, the communion hasn't been done

1:02:23

the same way for ever and ever and the obvious,

1:02:29

despite, well,

1:02:36

you cannot have milk without an inherent feminine element.

1:02:40

You just can't.

1:02:47

You know, so and then the whole connection

1:02:48

to the Hebrew text which is inherent

1:02:52

and in the water and in the wine.

1:02:56

It's profound, deeply profound.

1:02:59

So they'll trip that as a liturgical moment was

1:03:05

earth shaking and life changing,

1:03:11

theology changing.

1:03:14

So, yeah.

1:03:17

So say that question again for me.

1:03:20

-

Sure, what specific contributions did Re-Imagining

1:03:22

make to Christian theology and, or liturgy?

1:03:25

-

So, the liturgy, certainly.

1:03:29

The communion right was changed forever in my eyes.

1:03:33

And I think in the church's eyes.

1:03:39

But I don't think we will

1:03:40

I don't think it's played out in these generations.

1:03:44

It may play out in the future but not yet.

1:03:47

If the church survives, if it wants to survive.

1:03:52

So, that remains to be seen.

1:03:55

But it certainly changed a lot of individuals.

1:03:59

And the theology, I think, you can't unsay some things.

1:04:02

You cannot unread some things.

1:04:11

Despite the sort of theological terrorism

1:04:14

that I described can silence many women.

1:04:17

Your work in doing this and all of the women

1:04:20

who have recorded their perspectives

1:04:24

right from the beginning that the book

1:04:27

that they put together which,

1:04:30

what was the name of that?

1:04:31

Did they call it just Re-Imagining?

1:04:33

-

Remembering and Re-Imagining.

1:04:34

-

Yeah.

1:04:36

That was tremendous.

1:04:37

And, the solid, academic work that they did

1:04:39

to get to that event was just monumental and historic.

1:04:45

It was like a, for me it was a bit like a Vatican conclave

1:04:51

of women, you know?

1:04:56

-

Yeah, yeah.

1:05:01

And, this may be a little redundant but I'll ask it,

1:05:03

you're coming up with great answers here.

1:05:06

What do you think is the greatest legacy of Re-Imagining?

1:05:08

-

You know, all of the things that I've been talking about

1:05:31

but just that it happened.

1:05:33

And, I think

1:05:39

Nell Morton would've been very happy

1:05:50

hearing women into speech and that this was a moment

1:05:52

when we heard each other to speech

1:05:57

and it wasn't just,

1:06:00

it wasn't just saying about my feelings.

1:06:01

It was, I have read this.

1:06:05

I have researched this and it was a platform

1:06:09

for revealing what we have learned,

1:06:12

what we have connived our way into the stacks

1:06:20

of libraries and the archives of place and that place

1:06:28

and even the Vatican and people, women who have made

1:06:34

their way into places where they were not supposed to be

1:06:37

and came out with research and, you know,

1:06:39

laid it at the feet of other women.

1:06:44

So, it was historic, it was watershed,

1:06:47

it was frightening and a terrible wind moved

1:06:50

through the house and made a lot of noise.

1:06:58

(laughing)

1:07:00

-

That's great.

1:07:02

I have a question.

1:07:03

Part of Re-Imagining was to bring, an important part

1:07:06

of it was to bring expansive or inclusive language

1:07:08

and feminist theology to the churches.

1:07:11

How would you evaluate where that is today?

1:07:15

-

Well.

1:07:18

What a terrible question.

1:07:24

Stop asking that question.

1:07:26

(laughing)

1:07:28

I don't know, you know it's interesting

1:07:30

because I see women being included.

1:07:31

I see women being respected.

1:07:33

I see the changes we want to be implemented

1:07:36

in a very substantive way.

1:07:39

I do not see the language changing

1:07:42

and that's interesting to me.

1:07:44

It has changed some.

1:07:47

Nobody reacts, like in my congregation,

1:07:50

nobody reacts when God is called mother.

1:07:54

But, that's not the norm and we have a woman,

1:07:57

feminist pastor, you know.

1:08:02

And I don't find myself using inclusive language

1:08:05

in the same way I might have in the 80's and 90's.

1:08:08

So, I think it's a conversation that needs to be had.

1:08:16

-

And, I'm asking another awful question.

1:08:22

Do you have any idea, here it comes.

1:08:26

Do you have any idea why that is?

1:08:28

I'd really like to know the answer to that.

1:08:30

(laughing)

1:08:31

-

I'm not gonna tell you.

1:08:33

(laughing)

1:08:34

-

Good.

1:08:35

(laughing)

1:08:36

-

I think people are tired, women are tired.

1:08:38

And I think that in some ways,

1:08:39

maybe we haven't implemented it on some levels

1:08:42

because people don't react negatively

1:08:45

to the feminine imagery that we do incorporate.

1:08:48

People have gotten to the point where God, as a mother,

1:08:54

is part of what we talk about.

1:08:58

But, if you do it all the time or exclusively

1:09:05

like male language is regularly used

1:09:09

then people do react.

1:09:11

So, I think if Re-Imagining hadn't happened

1:09:14

and it happened now, there would still be a strong reaction.

1:09:18

So, I think it's just habit, ingrained world views

1:09:27

that are very difficult to change.

1:09:33

I think, you know, it is changing,

1:09:37

people's ideas of gender are changing.

1:09:39

The kind of fluidity of gender identity

1:09:42

is becoming more and more apparent.

1:09:45

So that is a different way of changing our imagery

1:09:53

and our identity and our own anxieties,

1:09:58

hopefully reducing anxieties, eventually,

1:10:01

about gender identity.

1:10:03

And that, I think, will project onto God

1:10:06

as opposed to using language to change

1:10:09

as I think our own shifting identities

1:10:14

are gonna change our perspective of God.

1:10:17

So I think it's a long haul and that may just be

1:10:19

the reality and people get tired.

1:10:22

Like, I'm not gonna do that for a long time.

1:10:24

And then someone else will have to pick up the torch

1:10:27

and do a new generation.

1:10:29

I just think it's deep.

1:10:32

So the answer in my book is a deep, culturalization

1:10:34

of gender.

1:10:37

And war weary.

1:10:41

(laughing)

1:10:44

I think that's probably it, in short,

1:10:47

-

Well, I have one other big question for you.

1:10:51

-

Okay.

1:10:54

-

And I'm gonna be interested in your answer,

1:10:55

especially given what you're doing about progressive

1:10:57

movements in Africa.

1:10:59

But, what does Re-Imagining mean today?

1:11:00

And by that, I don't mean necessarily the community

1:11:03

or that conference.

1:11:05

I mean what needs to be re-imagined today

1:11:06

or what is being re-imagined today?

1:11:09

-

Well, I think church itself is being re-imagined.

1:11:15

And, not fast enough because I think it's kind of

1:11:19

dissipating before our very eyes.

1:11:24

And that's been,

1:11:29

honestly that has been, at least in part,

1:11:31

the result of the constant harangue of the right wing.

1:11:34

And, intentional, strategic goals to undermine

1:11:38

progressive Protestant groups in the United States

1:11:43

and that has had fall out around the world.

1:11:46

And, some of the strategies have been to intentionally

1:11:48

foment hatred around LGBT issues in places like Africa

1:11:52

among the Anglicans there as well as a whole plethora

1:11:57

of folks, political and religious alike.

1:12:01

And, (audio cuts out) have completely politicized.

1:12:05

-

How do you see church being re-imagined?

1:12:12

That's a more--

1:12:16

-

Well, I think people are going outside of churches

1:12:17

to find their spiritual nurture.

1:12:19

Churches, some churches are smaller and more welcoming.

1:12:23

I think churches are a little more humble, all in all.

1:12:36

It's like, well, where we gonna make it?

1:12:39

And, it's like, how do we serve people a little more?

1:12:43

And of course there's still the,

1:12:48

but even mega churches and the big people who are,

1:12:50

evangelicals who are making lots of money,

1:12:55

they're trying to re-position themselves

1:12:58

because they see the handwriting on the wall

1:13:01

that they're version of narrow mindedness,

1:13:03

in many of those cases, is not gonna survive.

1:13:06

So, I think there's change all across the spectrum.

1:13:11

And, it's only natural but I think it has the potential

1:13:15

of some realignments.

1:13:19

You've got a whole swath across the denominations

1:13:23

of progressives and you have a whole swath

1:13:27

of more and more intransigent, entrenched right wing,

1:13:30

hard line, rigid people and they've been reinforced

1:13:35

by talk radio and right wing talk radio.

1:13:42

So you've got that swath that's, can be mobilized

1:13:49

as we have found by Trump and that's unnerving.

1:13:54

But I think the folks across here are trying

1:14:00

to make contributions to society

1:14:05

and their respective congregations and bring some humility

1:14:07

as well as some generosity and some sense of the universal

1:14:11

journey toward God that runs across denominations

1:14:19

and religions that there's,

1:14:24

that's the changing church.

1:14:27

But this is the changing church too.

1:14:30

The rigid.

1:14:32

People were not as rigid as they are today.

1:14:33

At least not as many and not as mobilized

1:14:37

and not as politicized as they used to be.

1:14:39

They tended to be on the outs and they tended to be

1:14:43

a little more humble and that came after

1:14:47

the scopes trials and the whole monkey and evolution

1:14:50

but they have regained their irrationality.

1:14:53

(laughing)

1:14:58

And their commitment to it.

1:14:59

So, what do you do?

1:15:02

So yeah, so there's a lot of change.

1:15:05

I would say it's happening at different levels.

1:15:07

It'd be fantastic if the Catholic church ever really

1:15:09

embodied compassion that the Pope

1:15:11

is kind of tip toeing toward.

1:15:15

Even an anti-violence message toward gender,

1:15:18

sexual minorities would be earth changing.

1:15:22

So, the Catholic church is changing

1:15:29

and for him to go to a mosque and do all that is big.

1:15:31

So the world is changing.

1:15:38

-

Yes, yes.

1:15:40

Well, I have one last specific question for you.

1:15:41

We are working on a Re-Imagining website

1:15:44

and I would love any suggestions you have

1:15:47

about what would be helpful to include in it,

1:15:50

who would benefit from it.

1:15:53

We're just looking for ideas and suggestions.

1:15:55

-

Well.

1:16:00

I think, you know, all of this runs the risk,

1:16:05

and did run the risk of leaving a lot of women behind.

1:16:08

So, like, how do you do with some literature in the bible

1:16:15

and wisdom theology in a way that is accessible

1:16:21

and to make sure that the hard core research

1:16:26

that's so critical to the validation of the Re-Imagining

1:16:32

experience of research, that that doesn't become

1:16:39

the dominant theme in a website.

1:16:44

It needs to be there but I think the real goal

1:16:48

and the way to move the findings of the experience of that

1:16:51

into more mainstream church women would be

1:16:57

to make it accessible and to have some process

1:17:02

involved in it of helping women read the bible

1:17:07

with different eyes and read the bible

1:17:13

through the eyes of wisdom literature

1:17:16

because it's all there throughout it.

1:17:19

So those would be some of the things

1:17:24

that I would look for.

1:17:26

-

Yes.

1:17:28

Very helpful.

1:17:29

Is there anything else that you would like to add

1:17:30

that we haven't discussed, Ann?

1:17:32

(woman sighs)

1:17:37

-

It would be fun to do a few conference calls,

1:17:42

recorded conference calls to jar people's memories.

1:17:52

-

Oh yes.

1:17:56

-

Some group conference calls.

1:17:58

-

Great idea.

1:18:02

-

Yeah, and to record those with some of the,

1:18:03

say have a group of about six women and have them

1:18:08

chose each other.

1:18:10

-

Oh!

1:18:11

-

Uh-huh.

1:18:12

And, what do you remember?

1:18:14

Even getting some United Methodist women

1:18:16

who were there together.

1:18:18

What do you remember?

1:18:20

What happened to you afterwards?

1:18:21

And then just, 'cause I realize that it's all here

1:18:22

but it takes a little digging.

1:18:26

-

Yes.

1:18:31

-

In the memory file cabinets to,

1:18:32

like the paper and now I remember it.

1:18:34

And then I don't want to conjure up some memories,

1:18:37

just like, well, I kind of remember that but I think

1:18:42

it happened this, you know.

1:18:44

It needs to have some checks and balances

1:18:45

so other people who were there can do that for us.

1:18:47

And it's like that moment when I got the United Methodist

1:18:52

women together, I don't know, I remember the feeling.

1:18:57

I remember what I kind of did but I don't remember

1:19:01

the content as well as I want to.

1:19:04

But I think other people would who were there.

1:19:07

-

Yes, yes.

1:19:09

-

They were listening to me.

1:19:11

I was talking, they were listening, you know.

1:19:12

(laughing)

1:19:14

-

Yes, yes, that is a very creative, interesting idea.

1:19:16

If it turns out I can work this out,

1:19:19

I'll be emailing you, okay?

1:19:21

-

Yeah, and would love to get a group of Presbyterian women

1:19:23

together, talk to each other, and some of the (laughing).

1:19:26

It might even be interesting to get Mark Tully

1:19:33

and some of them.

1:19:35

Are you interviewing anybody on the right wing?

1:19:38

-

Not really.

1:19:41

-

They had their chance.

1:19:43

I kind of agree with that.

1:19:45

Although, I wonder what they would say, you know?

1:19:49

-

Yes, I do.

1:19:53

Well, I'm still thinking about that.

1:19:54

-

Yeah, don't spend a lot of time worrying about it.

1:19:56

(laughing)

1:19:59

You've got plenty to do with this.

1:20:01

I'm so happy you're doing this.

1:20:04

-

Oh, thank you.

1:20:06

Me too.

1:20:07

Me too.

1:20:08

Shall I stop the recording now?

1:20:08

-

Sounds good.

1:20:11

-

Is this a good place to stop?

1:20:11

Good, let me just turn that off.

1:20:12

Craig, Ann

Transcript

Item Info

Sallie Bingham Center for Women's History & Culture