Craig, Ann
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- | Ann, thank you so much for doing this interview. | 0:05 |
If you could just say your full name. | 0:08 | |
- | I'll give you my full, full name. | 0:11 |
Jessica Ann Craig. | 0:13 | |
- | Great. | 0:14 |
- | I go by Ann. | 0:15 |
- | You go by Ann, great. | 0:16 |
And are you lay or clergy? | 0:17 | |
- | Well, I have been a lay person for most of my life | 0:20 |
and in the last year, about a little less than a year ago, | 0:23 | |
I was ordained in Metropolitan Community Churches | 0:27 | |
as well as the Fellowship of Affirming Ministries | 0:30 | |
under the leadership of Yvette Flunder. | 0:35 | |
So it was a very ecumenical ordination. | 0:37 | |
- | Wonderful, thank you. | 0:41 |
So, those would be your denominational affiliations now? | 0:43 | |
- | No. | 0:48 |
- | No, okay. | 0:49 |
(laughing) | 0:49 | |
- | Yes and no. | 0:51 |
I am affiliated with both groups | 0:52 | |
and I have not given up my United Methodist membership. | 0:54 | |
Call me ambivalent or call me visionary, | 0:58 | |
either one would work. | 1:02 | |
- | Okay. | 1:03 |
(laughing) | 1:04 | |
That is great. | 1:05 | |
- | And, when and where were you born? | 1:06 |
- | Oklahoma City, Oklahoma in 1952. | 1:08 |
- | Wonderful. | 1:12 |
And where did you go to school? | 1:14 | |
Graduate, divinity school, college, anything? | 1:15 | |
- | I went to Nebraska Wesleyan University | 1:19 |
and then to, several schools, but I went to | 1:23 | |
Yale Divinity School. | 1:28 | |
But in the past as I also did a summer quarter | 1:33 | |
at Grailville and got credit through the United, | 1:36 | |
what is it? | 1:43 | |
The United Theological School out in Ohio. | 1:44 | |
Which is a United Methodist affiliated institution. | 1:47 | |
Met some of the key players in that summer quarter | 1:52 | |
at Grailville. | 1:56 | |
And, many, I don't know if many, but several of them | 1:59 | |
were present at Re-Imagining and certainly all | 2:03 | |
were impacted. | 2:06 | |
So, and I've done graduate work, although I didn't get | 2:08 | |
a PhD, I did some PhD work, finished all the classwork | 2:12 | |
at Drew Theological School. | 2:15 | |
- | Wonderful, interesting. | 2:19 |
That's great. | 2:21 | |
What work or ministry were doing at the time | 2:22 | |
of Re-Imagining in 1993? | 2:24 | |
- | I spent about 17 years in the general board of ministries, | 2:28 |
specifically in United Methodist women, | 2:33 | |
what was then called the Women's Division, | 2:35 | |
now called the United Methodist Women's National Office. | 2:37 | |
So that's what I was doing there. | 2:41 | |
And my role was the Executive Director for Spiritual | 2:43 | |
and Theological Development. | 2:46 | |
- | Could you say a little bit about what that work was? | 2:50 |
Sounds interesting. | 2:53 | |
- | Sure, I was, | 2:54 |
let's see (mumbles). | 2:59 | |
I provided the oversight for an annual spiritual growth | 3:01 | |
study that dealt with social issues from a spiritual, | 3:05 | |
theological and biblical perspective. | 3:11 | |
- | I'm sorry, that was social issues you said? | 3:16 |
It broke up just a little bit. | 3:18 | |
- | Yes. | 3:19 |
- | Got it, good. | 3:20 |
Sorry. | 3:21 | |
- | No problem. | 3:22 |
And always feel free to clarify because I know it's Skype. | 3:24 | |
(laughing) | 3:27 | |
So, and I ran workshops and developed curriculum | 3:29 | |
for leadership development for our, | 3:34 | |
basically state level groups, our conference, | 3:38 | |
United Methodist Women's leadership. | 3:39 | |
And every year we would have a school Christian mission | 3:43 | |
and we would implement some of that leadership training | 3:46 | |
there and, along with the spiritual growth studies | 3:50 | |
in that locale. | 3:54 | |
And, one of the other things that I did was | 3:57 | |
I ran what was called Christian Disciplines Workshops, | 4:00 | |
which provided a much more in depth weekend experience | 4:05 | |
for conference level women's leadership. | 4:11 | |
(audio cuts out) | 4:16 | |
And for the district level as well that were attended | 4:18 | |
to provide, how do you do theology? | 4:22 | |
How do you do biblical research? | 4:26 | |
You know, study, in a United Methodist approach | 4:28 | |
and in order to deal with the issues that you | 4:32 | |
have back at school, we're committed to dealing with. | 4:37 | |
- | Very interesting. | 4:40 |
How long were you in that position, Ann? | 4:41 | |
- | 17 years. | 4:43 |
- | 17 years, okay, yeah, you said that. | 4:44 |
What work or ministry did you do after Re-Imagining? | 4:46 | |
- | I kept my job so I continued to do that work. | 4:51 |
- | Good. | 4:55 |
- | Yeah, so I know some people lost their jobs. | 4:56 |
I was instrumental. | 5:00 | |
I organized the entire group that attended | 5:01 | |
from the United Methodist Women. | 5:04 | |
- | Oh. | 5:06 |
- | Yeah and that was, you know, we learn about the event | 5:08 |
and then I ran through our usual procedures | 5:12 | |
and got permission to fund, I think we had about, | 5:17 | |
I would say 15 people there and that could be verified | 5:23 | |
at my fingertips, but about that 'cause we had | 5:27 | |
a handful of directors from our board of directors. | 5:33 | |
And they are all elected from the conferences | 5:39 | |
and the jurisdictions and then we had | 5:42 | |
about 10 representatives from two groups. | 5:45 | |
One was this spiritual growth coordinators | 5:53 | |
at the conference level and the other group was | 6:00 | |
vice presidents who were in charge of programming | 6:03 | |
at the conference level. | 6:06 | |
So we had about, I would say about 15 people total, | 6:07 | |
roughly. | 6:10 | |
- | Yeah, actually I was looking because I have, | 6:11 |
I had a fact sheet from Joyce Sohl, the director, | 6:15 | |
and she kind of listed that out. | 6:19 | |
So, those numbers are there but that's fine. | 6:21 | |
As you said, I can check that out. | 6:23 | |
I'm really interested in what made you decide | 6:25 | |
to organize that, to go to Re-Imagining. | 6:27 | |
Why that conference? | 6:30 | |
What did you know about it or hear about it? | 6:32 | |
- | Well, I had already read, and I'm trying to think | 6:36 |
of the name of book, | 6:40 | |
Hal Taussig's book on-- | 6:43 | |
- | Wisdom's Feast? | 6:47 |
Yes. | 6:48 | |
- | He co-wrote that, right? | 6:50 |
- | Right. | 6:51 |
- | Who did he write that with? | 6:52 |
- | Susan Cady, became Susan Cady Cole. | 6:53 |
And Marian, she was from Grailville, | 6:58 | |
a sister from Grailville. | 7:02 | |
And right now-- | 7:03 | |
- | Marian Ronan. | 7:04 |
- | That's it, that's it. | 7:05 |
Yes. | 7:06 | |
- | Marian Ronan was my adviser when I was at Grailville. | 7:07 |
- | Oh, okay. | 7:11 |
- | One of two advisors at Grailville. | 7:13 |
And the other was Joan Mark. | 7:15 | |
- | Oh. | 7:17 |
Presbyterian? | 7:18 | |
Or no? | 7:20 | |
Yeah. | 7:21 | |
- | Yes. | 7:22 |
- | Oh really? | 7:22 |
Okay, yes. | 7:23 | |
I interviewed her earlier too. | 7:24 | |
That's amazing. | 7:26 | |
So you knew about Sophia obviously. | 7:28 | |
- | I did. | 7:31 |
I actually was not expecting, | 7:32 | |
I'm not sure what I expected, | 7:36 | |
all I knew was that this was an ecumenical event | 7:38 | |
and the known people in leadership, | 7:41 | |
Jeanne Audrey Powers was among the leaders | 7:45 | |
so that was institutional connections. | 7:49 | |
And, so we said let's get a delegation going. | 7:53 | |
You know? | 7:57 | |
And so off we went. | 7:58 | |
I'd seen the list of speakers, as I recall, | 7:59 | |
and I said, oh yeah, we need to be here. | 8:03 | |
But I was not necessarily expecting Sophia. | 8:06 | |
- | Okay. | 8:12 |
Oh, yes, I see. | 8:14 | |
But you saw the speakers, yeah. | 8:16 | |
- | I did, yeah. | 8:17 |
And so I remember the moment vividly when, | 8:19 | |
I mean, it may have been the blessing, | 8:25 | |
the blessed Sophia, grand provision within whatever, | 8:27 | |
it may have been then or the end of the first night | 8:30 | |
when I realized, oh my goodness, | 8:36 | |
this is gonna be so controversial. | 8:39 | |
It became crystal clear. | 8:45 | |
- | Really? | 8:48 |
- | Yes. | 8:49 |
And I remember I had to have a little person to person talk | 8:51 | |
with myself and I said, alright, now what am I gonna do? | 8:56 | |
Am I going to panic or am I going to enjoy myself? | 9:01 | |
And then deal with whatever fall out that happens later. | 9:08 | |
And I decided, in that moment, to enjoy myself | 9:11 | |
and participate and what comes, will come. | 9:14 | |
Yeah. | 9:19 | |
But I knew, it was so like oh my gosh, I did not | 9:20 | |
quite realize. | 9:24 | |
'Cause I knew the controversy had already started | 9:26 | |
around the Sophia Wisdom Theology and in the right wing | 9:29 | |
of the United Methodist Church. | 9:34 | |
It was almost, it wasn't full blown | 9:36 | |
but it was very intense already. | 9:40 | |
And so, like, oh, now we're in it. | 9:42 | |
So, there was that moment. | 9:46 | |
- | Wow. | 9:48 |
- | I knew there was gonna (mumbles) and I said, | 9:50 |
oh, here we go. | 9:55 | |
And I was right. | 9:56 | |
- | You were right. | 9:58 |
Boy, were you right. | 9:58 | |
I want to get back to that. | 9:59 | |
Before we do, I just wanted to follow up, | 10:00 | |
what kind of work or ministry are you doing now, Ann? | 10:02 | |
- | Well, let me give you just a brief overview. | 10:07 |
- | Please. | 10:09 |
- | I segued off of the United Methodist Women's work | 10:10 |
to early retirement and had a year to kind of contemplate | 10:13 | |
where I wanted to go, did some entrepreneurial kind of | 10:19 | |
exploration and began as a free lancer. | 10:21 | |
No, sorry. | 10:27 | |
For four years, I was at the Gay Lesbian Alliance | 10:28 | |
against defamation as their first Director of Religion. | 10:31 | |
- | Really? | 10:35 |
- | Yeah, religion, faith, and values to be precise | 10:37 |
and so I worked for them for five years. | 10:41 | |
So I went from the church, looking over my shoulder | 10:44 | |
for being lesbian, and to the LGBT world, | 10:47 | |
having to explain myself as religious. | 10:51 | |
(laughing) | 10:54 | |
But it was great. | 10:57 | |
People actually were very kind. | 10:59 | |
It took us all a little while to get over the shock | 11:01 | |
of having a religion person in a major LGBT organization. | 11:03 | |
And, but a lot of people came to me and sort of confessed | 11:10 | |
their wayward ways. | 11:13 | |
So, it's okay, you know? | 11:15 | |
(laughing) | 11:16 | |
And then so the ongoing hunger for a safe space | 11:18 | |
to be spiritual that was really deeply expressed. | 11:22 | |
So, I did four years of that and in that I worked with, | 11:25 | |
that was an incredible experience of working with | 11:30 | |
probably 25 different LGBT denominationally based | 11:33 | |
faith groups. | 11:38 | |
One denomination might have four different faith groups | 11:40 | |
and I worked with all of them. | 11:43 | |
And, four LGBT faith groups. | 11:47 | |
And then helping them with journalism, | 11:49 | |
with getting press releases, how to get journalists | 11:52 | |
to show up to their events, message, do talking points, | 11:54 | |
do interviews, all that. | 11:59 | |
And I learned all of that from GLAD. | 12:00 | |
I have (audio cuts out). | 12:03 | |
But they didn't really know what they wanted | 12:05 | |
their religion person to do so once they told me, | 12:07 | |
I got it clear that they really didn't know | 12:10 | |
what they wanted me to do, they had a good idea | 12:11 | |
but they knew I was supposed to do something | 12:14 | |
but they weren't really sure what. | 12:16 | |
I said, okay, good. | 12:18 | |
I know what I need to do and that's when I just networked | 12:18 | |
with all of the (mumbles). | 12:21 | |
So that's four years and now I-- | 12:24 | |
- | Can I just interrupt for one second | 12:26 |
because I'm dying to know, what motivated them | 12:27 | |
to decide they wanted someone to do religion, faith, | 12:29 | |
and values? | 12:31 | |
- | Well, it's, | 12:33 |
it really boiled down to a couple, | 12:37 | |
there are about five major funders that get | 12:42 | |
the key people who got foundations connected to them, | 12:44 | |
who get, mostly white gay men, who get together | 12:47 | |
every year at a sort of retreat to talk about | 12:50 | |
where they want to go next and, you know, | 12:52 | |
and they finally came to the conclusion | 12:55 | |
that maybe we should do something about religion. | 12:59 | |
Duh, you know? | 13:02 | |
And, kind of one of those moments. | 13:03 | |
And, they began to fund the LGBT faith groups directly | 13:07 | |
and they funded the national secular groups | 13:12 | |
to have an angle on religion. | 13:16 | |
And so that's how those positions got established. | 13:18 | |
So it was a very historic moment | 13:22 | |
and in our humble opinion marriage equality was won | 13:24 | |
because of the faith leaders and in particular, | 13:31 | |
particularly, the black faith leaders who stepped up | 13:34 | |
in Maryland, Washington D.C., to begin the watershed moment | 13:37 | |
when marriage equality came across. | 13:42 | |
So, it's very historic and it was thrilling | 13:45 | |
to be a part of it, honestly. | 13:50 | |
Really thrilling. | 13:51 | |
And so now, I spun myself off of GLAD and, | 13:53 | |
'cause, oh my gosh, that was an intense organization. | 13:59 | |
(laughing) | 14:02 | |
I love GLAD, I speak very highly of it, | 14:03 | |
but it can make people crazy because I decided | 14:05 | |
(laughing) | 14:08 | |
like one year at GLAD is a little bit like dog years. | 14:09 | |
You know? | 14:13 | |
It's like (laughing). | 14:14 | |
Isn't that a funny idea? | 14:15 | |
I got in trouble for saying that once. | 14:17 | |
(laughing) | 14:19 | |
But it's a very intense organization | 14:21 | |
but does incredible work and it was a fantastic platform | 14:24 | |
to do the work I wanted to do. | 14:28 | |
Fantastic. | 14:30 | |
So then off I went, a little bit in survival mode, | 14:31 | |
and became a consultant in taking the knowledge | 14:35 | |
that I gained at GLAD and all the programmatic ideas | 14:39 | |
and knowledge that I experienced through | 14:43 | |
the United Methodist Women and have been a consultant | 14:45 | |
ever since. | 14:49 | |
Now, right now, let's see, over the years, | 14:50 | |
because I've worked with Presbyterians since then | 14:52 | |
as they gained, they dropped their prohibition | 14:54 | |
and welcomed marriage. | 14:58 | |
(speaker garbling) | 15:01 | |
But afterwards, Presbyterians and a major part | 15:05 | |
of our work has been following community churches. | 15:10 | |
I've been a primary consultant for them of communications. | 15:13 | |
And, but I'm beginning to work with kinship, | 15:18 | |
which (speaker garbling). | 15:21 | |
- | A Seventh Day Adventist Group you said? | 15:24 |
Yes. | 15:27 | |
- | Yeah, LGBT group, yes. | 15:28 |
Go figure. | 15:29 | |
And, so I've been working with them | 15:32 | |
on a little bit of programming development. | 15:34 | |
You know, fundraising and communications. | 15:37 | |
But my main, one of my main pieces of work | 15:40 | |
that I'm doing right now is Joseph Tolton and I | 15:42 | |
have been working for five years on the Fellowship Global, | 15:47 | |
which is an organization aimed at identifying | 15:53 | |
and expanding progressive faith voices in Africa. | 15:59 | |
- | Really? | 16:04 |
- | Yes. | 16:05 |
So east and west Africa. | 16:07 | |
If you've gone to Kenya, Rwanda, Democratic Republic | 16:09 | |
of Congo, and a little bit of Cote d'Ivoire in West Africa. | 16:12 | |
So yeah, it's like, I guess I've never shied away | 16:16 | |
from a challenge. | 16:20 | |
(laughing) | 16:21 | |
- | No. | 16:22 |
That is fascinating, wow. | 16:23 | |
Well, I'd love to talk about all of this. | 16:25 | |
It's so interesting. | 16:28 | |
I'd better move back to Re-imagining. | 16:29 | |
But this is fascinating. | 16:31 | |
And we'll get back to it when we talk about the future, | 16:33 | |
I think, where you see, where Re-imagining needs to happen. | 16:34 | |
So we'll get back to it but one last question, | 16:37 | |
background question. | 16:40 | |
How and when did you become aware of feminist theology? | 16:41 | |
- | Well, perhaps in college in 1973, 74. | 16:46 |
I remember I was in a colloquium with one | 16:54 | |
of my religion professors and he gave as, like, | 17:01 | |
oh, you should be sure to read as an extra credit, | 17:06 | |
Rosemary Ruether. | 17:12 | |
Well none of us did. | 17:15 | |
(laughing) | 17:16 | |
In true student fashion, you know, it was like, | 17:18 | |
oh yeah, by the way, read Rosemary Ruether. | 17:21 | |
And at the end he's like, well, did anybody read that? | 17:25 | |
I was like, no, we were too busy. | 17:28 | |
'Cause it wasn't for curriculum. | 17:30 | |
- | Right. | 17:32 |
- | But that was the first time I really had heard of her. | 17:33 |
Feminism was not really on my radar, per say, in college. | 17:37 | |
There were some feminists women but, oh my gosh, | 17:42 | |
were they harassed in college. | 17:44 | |
I didn't know what it meant, honestly. | 17:49 | |
By the time, I did a two year volunteer program | 17:56 | |
right out of college and was kind of immersed | 17:59 | |
a little bit in, well okay, I wasn't because, | 18:03 | |
it was like a six week program and about three weeks | 18:06 | |
into the program of the training, a woman showed up | 18:13 | |
who was at Saint Paul's School of Theology | 18:16 | |
in Kansas City. | 18:19 | |
- | Oh yes. | 18:20 |
- | And she asked the question, have you already begun talking | 18:21 |
about women's feminism and women's issues? | 18:24 | |
And all the leaders kind of shrank down. | 18:28 | |
It was kind of like that moment when they asked | 18:30 | |
about Rosemary Ruether. | 18:32 | |
It was like, no. | 18:32 | |
(laughing) | 18:34 | |
It was mostly women in the room and she goes, | 18:36 | |
how could you? | 18:39 | |
And so, that was my introduction and it blossomed | 18:40 | |
from there. | 18:46 | |
I was more intensely dealing with being gay in college | 18:48 | |
and trying to figure that out and creating my own | 18:53 | |
personal escape program. | 18:56 | |
Like, making deals with God and all that stuff. | 18:58 | |
Survive myself and all that. | 19:00 | |
And through that same church base, | 19:04 | |
the United Methodist base program, | 19:06 | |
was introduced in the training to openly gay people | 19:08 | |
and lesbian people so the irony of church, right? | 19:11 | |
Yeah. | 19:16 | |
So that was sort of my introduction to feminism | 19:18 | |
and to LGBT stuff. | 19:21 | |
- | Wow, fascinating. | 19:24 |
You started talking about your initial introduction | 19:25 | |
at Re-Imagining, going to the '93 conference | 19:29 | |
which is the one you went to, and you talked about | 19:32 | |
that Blessed Sophia. | 19:34 | |
Could you talk about other moments that struck you | 19:36 | |
during that time, that you particularly remember? | 19:39 | |
- | Sure. | 19:42 |
Predictably, the moment when all the lesbians | 19:44 | |
were invited on the stage and-- | 19:46 | |
- | Can I ask, did you join them? | 19:50 |
Did you feel like you could join-- | 19:52 | |
- | No, I did not. | 19:53 |
- | Yeah, understandable. | 19:54 |
Yep. | 19:55 | |
- | And they, and I remember them saying that were many women | 19:56 |
in the room who are not free to join us on the stage | 20:02 | |
for the risk of their jobs and their families | 20:05 | |
and many other things. | 20:08 | |
So, and I got back and Joyce Sohl, in her enumerable way, | 20:09 | |
although I will imitate it. | 20:17 | |
(laughing) | 20:18 | |
Alright, did anybody go up on the stage? | 20:22 | |
And everybody said, no, nobody went up. | 20:26 | |
And, so she says, well good. | 20:31 | |
(laughing) | 20:32 | |
(mumbles) | 20:34 | |
She was very supportive, as much as she could be, | 20:36 | |
but did not feel like she could defend people | 20:40 | |
if it became a blow out situation. | 20:44 | |
So that was one moment. | 20:48 | |
You know-- | 20:53 | |
- | Wait, can I just interrupt for a minute? | 20:54 |
How did it feel to see that? | 20:55 | |
I'm sorry. | 20:57 | |
But how did that feel to see those women go up there | 20:58 | |
and the response that they got? | 21:00 | |
- | Oh, it was both devastating and wonderful | 21:04 |
all at the same time, not being able to go up. | 21:06 | |
Because when I was in seminary, I was totally out. | 21:12 | |
I was out, I was highly political. | 21:17 | |
I lived in Virginia for five years. | 21:20 | |
I was the sort of go-to person for panels of out lesbians | 21:22 | |
and my partner at the time | 21:25 | |
and I were in the local newspaper. | 21:27 | |
And I was doing campus ministry at the time | 21:30 | |
as a two year volunteer, it was stipended. | 21:33 | |
So, I was very much organizing, enrichment | 21:39 | |
of lesbian feminists in the network of a group | 21:44 | |
called Gay Awareness and Perspectives | 21:48 | |
so I was extremely political. | 21:50 | |
I was on the Catholic, I helped found the dignity | 21:52 | |
and the integrity chapters and the Methodist | 21:56 | |
affirmation chapters in Richmond during that time. | 21:59 | |
And then was on the study commission from the diocese | 22:05 | |
of Richmond for the Catholics and the diocese of, | 22:08 | |
I guess it's probably, I don't remember, | 22:15 | |
the Episcopal diocese of Richmond. | 22:17 | |
Maybe that's what it was called. | 22:19 | |
I was on their study commission for human sexuality | 22:20 | |
as well. | 22:23 | |
So I was very ecumenical then as well as now. | 22:25 | |
And, I was involved in the United Methodist | 22:28 | |
human sexuality workshop. | 22:32 | |
It was not the same. | 22:34 | |
It was more of a curriculum that they had developed | 22:36 | |
at the national level and implemented | 22:40 | |
at the conference level and then they identified leaders | 22:42 | |
from that training to do district level training | 22:46 | |
and church level training for the United Methodists. | 22:51 | |
And I proceeded to announce that I was considering | 22:54 | |
having a child but I wasn't sure I was gonna get married. | 22:57 | |
(speaker garbling) | 23:02 | |
(laughing) | 23:06 | |
So I was not invited to be one of those leaders. | 23:08 | |
So those are some of the pieces, that background, and, | 23:12 | |
so I don't know how we got back to that. | 23:18 | |
But I was, you know, strong background and a big political | 23:20 | |
icon (speaker garbling). | 23:24 | |
So-- | 23:26 | |
- | I'm sorry. | 23:27 |
I'm losing you a little bit. | 23:27 | |
Can we just wait a second? | 23:29 | |
I'm sorry. | 23:30 | |
- | Yeah, I was muttering. | 23:32 |
- | Well, it was getting, the connection's not so great. | 23:33 |
But, you were saying, so you had a strong background | 23:36 | |
in being political so that moment was both devastating | 23:38 | |
and wonderful. | 23:41 | |
And I interrupted you there. | 23:44 | |
You were talking about other moments | 23:45 | |
but I wanted to hear about that. | 23:46 | |
- | Right, right. | 23:48 |
So, so being in the closet was like challenging | 23:50 | |
and it takes a toll. | 23:55 | |
So that was a moment at Re-Imagining that was difficult. | 23:57 | |
And, you know, I was like, alright fine. | 24:02 | |
I'm just not gonna be able to go up and I won't | 24:05 | |
but I wanted to. | 24:06 | |
- | Oh sure. | 24:09 |
- | So other moments, you know, | 24:10 |
the apple. | 24:14 | |
Rita Nakashima Brock always knocked my socks off. | 24:17 | |
She's a really, has done some amazing work. | 24:21 | |
And she did some amazing background work | 24:25 | |
around the right wing, all denominations | 24:30 | |
that was really very watershed. | 24:35 | |
Some of that was a little later. | 24:41 | |
So the theological work that they did, | 24:45 | |
Trinitarian theological work is not a moment | 24:51 | |
but it's the motif and research that they did was amazing. | 24:54 | |
Now, one of the things that happened to me | 25:01 | |
is when I got home, and we can go back to other moments | 25:04 | |
as I, it's been a long a time. | 25:09 | |
- | Yes, it has. | 25:11 |
- | But one of the things that it forced me to do | 25:15 |
was really to do some research for myself | 25:18 | |
about early church theology, Trinitarian, | 25:21 | |
wisdom literature, and how it is in a world | 25:25 | |
with scripture and I became the resident expert | 25:30 | |
on wisdom literature and all that. | 25:35 | |
And I actually went back to graduate school | 25:38 | |
in early church theology as part of my self-education | 25:42 | |
on that. | 25:47 | |
Worked with Virginia Burrus in all the early church stuff. | 25:48 | |
I've done all the coursework. | 25:54 | |
And I think I got what I needed out of that. | 25:55 | |
It would've been nice to have a PhD but 9/11 hit | 25:58 | |
and the economic realities bottomed out | 26:01 | |
for United Methodist Women, which meant I didn't have | 26:05 | |
as much support staff and all of that | 26:08 | |
or permission and so the PhD thing went on a back burner | 26:10 | |
and has not ever gotten to the front burner. | 26:14 | |
But, the class, the coursework was a result | 26:17 | |
of me already learning about the Trinitarian theology | 26:20 | |
and how less than gendered it was | 26:26 | |
than what it has it become. | 26:30 | |
Or at least complicated in its gender identities. | 26:33 | |
So I was like these women did their homework. | 26:37 | |
- | Yes. | 26:41 |
- | They knew what they were talking about completely. | 26:42 |
And this was not casual. | 26:45 | |
And for it to get the kind of blow back it did | 26:48 | |
was, you know, a sad statement about the total church, | 26:50 | |
about our lack of knowledge | 26:55 | |
and how easily we're manipulated. | 26:57 | |
But it was a sad statement about the blatant disregard | 26:58 | |
for facts and for the actual realities in the old church | 27:02 | |
that the right wing chose to follow. | 27:09 | |
- | Yes, yes. | 27:11 |
Very good. | 27:14 | |
Well, should we move to the backlash | 27:15 | |
or did you want to talk about other moments? | 27:18 | |
What makes sense to you at this point? | 27:20 | |
- | Well. | 27:23 |
Let me talk about another moment. | 27:30 | |
I think it was after the first night | 27:34 | |
but I'm not sure. | 27:36 | |
It may have been the first morning. | 27:38 | |
But when the whole room realized how controversial. | 27:40 | |
I need to remember this. | 27:51 | |
I'm trying to decide if this was after, | 27:59 | |
I don't think it was after the lesbian coming to the stage. | 28:02 | |
I think it was when, it was when it was clear to everybody | 28:06 | |
that we were talking about feminine imagery of God | 28:12 | |
in full Trinitarian outline. | 28:17 | |
God of the mother, Sophia, and the holy spirit Roha, | 28:24 | |
and that some of the controversy had already surfaced | 28:30 | |
and (garbling) and the people that had been invited, | 28:35 | |
the program and the spiritual development people. | 28:41 | |
We convened a meeting because people were very concerned. | 28:45 | |
We did. | 28:49 | |
And I had to talk them down. | 28:54 | |
(laughing) | 28:57 | |
And I'm trying to remember exactly | 28:59 | |
what the conversation was. | 29:00 | |
It was very difficult to remember. | 29:02 | |
But I had to lay it out for them an understanding | 29:12 | |
in metaphor and gender notions of divinity | 29:16 | |
and all of that. | 29:23 | |
It's not like it wasn't, I don't think I told them | 29:24 | |
anything new but I said, let's not panic here. | 29:26 | |
This is (mumbles). | 29:32 | |
I kind of put them through my moment. | 29:34 | |
It's like, so what are you gonna do? | 29:36 | |
How do you wanna handle this? | 29:38 | |
And, it was, | 29:40 | |
I downplayed it but and I tried to explain it. | 29:47 | |
And, it seemed to be adequate for the moment. | 29:51 | |
And the blow back later did not come | 29:55 | |
from the directors particularly. | 30:00 | |
Nor from the members from the conference level. | 30:03 | |
I don't think we had hardly any critique from them. | 30:08 | |
So that was another moment. | 30:12 | |
Who were the speakers? | 30:20 | |
Would you remind me the names of some of the speakers? | 30:21 | |
- | Chung Hyun Kyung, Barbara Lundblad, Mary Bednarowski, | 30:25 |
Lois Wilson, Virginia Ramey Mollenkott, | 30:33 | |
there were lots more. | 30:40 | |
Those are the ones that are just coming to the top | 30:41 | |
of my head. | 30:42 | |
Joan Martin. | 30:43 | |
- | Okay, yeah. | 30:44 |
Chung Hyun Kyung is always the dramatist | 30:47 | |
and she did a great job during that time of the, | 30:51 | |
I think she used the burning imagery, right? | 30:59 | |
Magic burning paper. | 31:03 | |
So, she was always a show person. | 31:07 | |
But with solid theology behind it. | 31:14 | |
And Barbara Lundblad, I don't remember her sermon | 31:19 | |
that night but she's an all-time favorite of mine. | 31:24 | |
She and I are friends and I went to her church | 31:27 | |
when she was at the Lutheran church | 31:30 | |
in upper Manhattan occasionally. | 31:32 | |
I should've gone more often. | 31:35 | |
Like, the best preaching I've ever heard in my life | 31:36 | |
and I can't get up early in the morning. | 31:38 | |
You kind of know after the fact that like | 31:42 | |
you should've gotten up everyday but be that as it may, | 31:45 | |
she was always a show stopper preacher. | 31:51 | |
Yeah, so it was quite a cast of characters | 31:56 | |
and I think that was one of the obvious draw. | 32:01 | |
Some of my friends like Joan Martin. | 32:05 | |
Alright, so now I'll-- | 32:07 | |
- | Can I just make sure I understand something? | 32:09 |
When you said you had to talk them down, what did that mean? | 32:12 | |
Were thinking of leaving? | 32:15 | |
Were they, I mean, what was the-- | 32:17 | |
- | No, they were just upset. | 32:19 |
This is kind of like what are we gonna tell people | 32:22 | |
when we go home? | 32:26 | |
- | Yeah. | 32:27 |
Were they upset because they, | 32:28 | |
was it their reaction? | 32:30 | |
I mean, was it their reaction, they didn't like it | 32:32 | |
or they were worried about what the repercussions would be | 32:34 | |
or a combination? | 32:37 | |
- | A little combination. | 32:40 |
Sort of like, what is this? | 32:45 | |
How are we supposed to be reacting to this? | 32:50 | |
Is this wrong kind of question. | 32:55 | |
And, what are we gonna say to people when we go home? | 33:00 | |
I don't know that, none of us knew exactly | 33:03 | |
what kind of bad press we were gonna get. | 33:08 | |
We didn't know at that moment. | 33:12 | |
We didn't know if we were gonna get it | 33:14 | |
or what kind it would be but they knew that this was content | 33:16 | |
that was pretty unfamiliar and kind of over the top | 33:19 | |
for them. | 33:22 | |
And so, I had to just console them a little bit | 33:23 | |
and say, you know, this is theology. | 33:27 | |
And, I don't think, | 33:32 | |
it's kind of a blur so I had read the Taussig book | 33:40 | |
about it and I had already done some writing on it, | 33:46 | |
sort of reacting to it as I recall. | 33:51 | |
So I had some knowledge of that. | 33:54 | |
It's like, what is Sophia? | 33:56 | |
And I could explain a little bit to them. | 33:57 | |
But it was really after I had gotten back | 34:00 | |
that I became immersed in it and so I don't know | 34:02 | |
how detailed of information, | 34:08 | |
and probably I gave them plenty, | 34:11 | |
just around the female metaphor for God. | 34:13 | |
So, that's probably what, and the Sophia thing, | 34:18 | |
and it's like, whatever. | 34:21 | |
So it was, I think, more about the gender of God | 34:22 | |
than anything as I recall. | 34:27 | |
- | Yes, yes. | 34:29 |
So you came back and what happened then? | 34:32 | |
First of all, what happened to you personally | 34:35 | |
when you got back in terms of the back lash? | 34:37 | |
- | Yeah. | 34:41 |
Well, it didn't take long for the good news people | 34:43 | |
to put out some really bad press | 34:46 | |
and the, | 34:48 | |
what's the Presbyterian-- | 34:54 | |
- | Presbyterian layman? | 34:55 |
- | Yes, yeah. | 34:56 |
And, I think it was both of them that, | 34:58 | |
and I describe it nowadays when I tell people about it, | 35:04 | |
it's like they took women's theology | 35:07 | |
and made pornography out of it. | 35:10 | |
And, they put, you know, I described a tryptic | 35:15 | |
that was being painted and the tryptic was very important | 35:18 | |
and very, that's whole 'nother moment, very captivating. | 35:24 | |
The entire time of it being created and for them | 35:28 | |
to take a picture of the rear end of Eve | 35:32 | |
and put it on their cover, that's what I mean | 35:39 | |
by creating pornography out of women's theology. | 35:41 | |
And then the whole, oh good grief, the milk and honey thing | 35:44 | |
was ridiculous because it's like I'm the honey pot. | 35:49 | |
I had never even heard of that derogatory | 35:55 | |
kind of understanding of sexuality for women | 35:58 | |
and it's like, well, what about the land of milk and honey? | 36:01 | |
Hello, you know. | 36:05 | |
It's like totally familiar biblical references. | 36:07 | |
So yeah, that started really making the circles | 36:10 | |
and the good news, people created their own version of that | 36:15 | |
and letters and all that. | 36:20 | |
We used to get a massive letters that had been | 36:21 | |
kind of mass produced from local women | 36:26 | |
and some conference level women. | 36:31 | |
So, Joyce Sohl was DGS, Deputy General Secretary, | 36:37 | |
when I was in the middle of this and I have to | 36:43 | |
tip my hat, I even have one on, | 36:49 | |
but tip my hat to her that I did not get fired | 36:51 | |
because I was the point person for getting people there. | 36:56 | |
And she could have fired me easily if she had chosen to. | 37:00 | |
But she took a lot of heat herself and did her share | 37:03 | |
of defending what had happened. | 37:10 | |
Now, one of the things that I probably, | 37:13 | |
now, this is confessional time, | 37:16 | |
I offered to respond to many of the letters | 37:22 | |
and I'm a very good letter writer | 37:27 | |
and I make it very personal and really compassionate. | 37:29 | |
I don't turn people off. | 37:32 | |
I consider it a mystery. | 37:34 | |
But there were so many and I did not have | 37:36 | |
a boiler plate letter and they sat there, they sat there, | 37:39 | |
and they sat there and a lot of them did not | 37:43 | |
ever get an answer. | 37:45 | |
So that's a little confessional. | 37:46 | |
They should've gotten an answer but they didn't. | 37:48 | |
So, Joyce answered some but on the other hand, | 37:53 | |
I don't know that they wanted an answer because it was | 37:57 | |
more of just like, we've heard this and you shouldn't | 38:00 | |
have done that. | 38:04 | |
We heard this, you shouldn't have done that. | 38:06 | |
And boom. | 38:07 | |
And so they had already made up their minds. | 38:08 | |
(mumbles) | 38:11 | |
And it gets played out in the public arena as well. | 38:12 | |
So the arguments that would laid out in a written letter | 38:16 | |
are the arguments that were laid out in the public arena. | 38:18 | |
But, I have to say, that the whole event I would describe | 38:21 | |
as theological terrorism. | 38:26 | |
- | Say some more about this. | 38:29 |
Why theological terrorism? | 38:31 | |
- | Because it was a warning signal to all women | 38:33 |
that you will not go here and if you do, | 38:38 | |
you will pay dearly. | 38:43 | |
And, from that point on, if you said the word Sophia | 38:46 | |
or even wisdom among United Methodist Women's leadership, | 38:51 | |
especially at the highest level, | 38:54 | |
they broke out into fearful gibbles. | 38:56 | |
Like, why would say that? | 39:03 | |
Don't say that, don't say that. | 39:05 | |
I mean, literally. | 39:08 | |
And I would always just say why would you act that way | 39:12 | |
around theology that's core to the bible? | 39:15 | |
It's like oh, you know, you know, you know. | 39:17 | |
I was like, no, I don't know. | 39:19 | |
And I would really press people because it's a very | 39:21 | |
unhelpful response and people who should know better. | 39:24 | |
Oh, no don't talk about that. | 39:30 | |
Don't say that. | 39:31 | |
We'll get into trouble. | 39:32 | |
It's like no, I'm not gonna go for that. | 39:33 | |
So that's why I call it theological terrorism | 39:39 | |
because people were afraid for their jobs, | 39:41 | |
their livelihoods and permanently damaged | 39:43 | |
in terms of women's imagery and leadership. | 39:47 | |
So that's why I would call it that. | 39:53 | |
- | You said you got support from Joyce. | 39:56 |
Did you get support from other ways from people | 39:59 | |
in the church or? | 40:02 | |
- | Not particularly. | 40:10 |
I mean, there were plenty of people who attended | 40:12 | |
and who heard about it later, wished they'd been there, | 40:14 | |
kind of folks that you would kind of predict | 40:18 | |
that would be supportive and that was good. | 40:21 | |
I ended up going not that long afterwards | 40:26 | |
to western North Carolina conference, | 40:29 | |
United Methodist women. | 40:34 | |
Oh my goodness, that was quite an experience. | 40:36 | |
- | What happened? | 40:40 |
- | They were armed for bear as we say in the Midwest. | 40:42 |
They were not happy and there were two or three women, | 40:47 | |
I think it was one of the spiritual disciplines workshops | 40:50 | |
that I described. | 40:54 | |
- | Yes. | 40:56 |
- | And we really had to kind of set aside the primary | 40:57 |
curriculum in order to discuss and come to some kind of | 40:59 | |
prayerful agreement to disagree and to, | 41:04 | |
you know, because they just, they had bought hook, line, | 41:10 | |
and sinker, the whole pagan, goddess worshiping, | 41:13 | |
sex crazed conclave. | 41:15 | |
They had bought into that hook, line, and sinker. | 41:21 | |
You know, including sort of devil worshiping, | 41:24 | |
demon possession almost. | 41:27 | |
That kind of level of who are you, why are you here, | 41:29 | |
and aren't you Satan kind of almost. | 41:34 | |
And, there were a couple women who were just in a frenzy, | 41:38 | |
in a frenzy, and so they were dominating | 41:42 | |
the entire conversation. | 41:46 | |
And so, I had the group holding hands and praying. | 41:48 | |
(garbling) | 41:56 | |
Not like we don't do that normally but it's like | 41:58 | |
a little bit of emergency prayer. | 42:01 | |
It's like, can we see the humanity in each other. | 42:03 | |
And, trying to lay out the Trinitarian theology | 42:09 | |
that was at work and that this was not any kind of heresy | 42:15 | |
at all. | 42:19 | |
But, the minute you, I had not had my GLAD media training | 42:21 | |
so I didn't necessarily know that you shouldn't repeat | 42:27 | |
the word heresy. | 42:30 | |
(laughing) | 42:32 | |
But at the same time, helped them work through | 42:34 | |
some of their frightening concerns. | 42:37 | |
- | How did they react, Ann? | 42:40 |
- | Well, I think there were those you were just watching | 42:44 |
this punching fight, theological knock down, drag out, | 42:47 | |
and others who wanted to have sincere questions, | 42:54 | |
and then there were the frenzied people. | 42:57 | |
So, I don't know if I did a decent job or not. | 43:00 | |
I know we stayed together, nobody left, | 43:06 | |
and that's probably significant. | 43:10 | |
So I don't know. | 43:16 | |
It was what it was. | 43:18 | |
But it was intense (laughing). | 43:19 | |
- | I bet it was. | 43:22 |
And I just have to ask, how was your relationship | 43:23 | |
with the other women from the division who had gone | 43:26 | |
to the conference? | 43:28 | |
- | Fine. | 43:35 |
Nothing of great note. | 43:38 | |
People were, besides what I described to you, | 43:40 | |
the ongoing kind of fall out, most people just didn't | 43:43 | |
want to have anything to do with it at that point. | 43:46 | |
And so, they, I couldn't even tell you | 43:50 | |
which staff were there. | 43:55 | |
Oh, Sammy Ruby was there. | 43:57 | |
Do you know Sammy Ruby? | 43:58 | |
- | I don't, no. | 44:00 |
- | She would be a great person. | 44:01 |
- | Okay, good. | 44:03 |
- | She's in Ohio. | 44:04 |
- | Okay, great. | 44:06 |
- | She might remember a whole other side of it. | 44:08 |
- | Sure. | 44:12 |
- | And I could try to, hold on for a second. | 44:13 |
Do you know what town Sandy Ruby lives in. | 44:17 | |
(speaking softly) | 44:23 | |
Oh, in Indiana. | 44:25 | |
Okay. | 44:26 | |
Because she was at Re-Imagining. | 44:28 | |
We're talking about Re-Imagining Women's (mumbles). | 44:32 | |
She's doing an archive for (mumbles). | 44:34 | |
Do you remember who else was at Re-Imagining? | 44:37 | |
Who else from, anybody from your conference? | 44:40 | |
(woman speaking softly) | 44:43 | |
Was she there? | 44:49 | |
Ah, great. | 44:50 | |
(woman speaking softly) | 44:53 | |
I'll have to pick their brains if I could remember, yeah. | 44:59 | |
- | Maybe an email later? | 45:05 |
Would that work? | 45:06 | |
Would that work? | 45:08 | |
- | Yeah, Deanna Rodriguez is another person, yeah, | 45:09 |
we'll try to remember a couple of those people. | 45:13 | |
- | Good, I can follow up with an email. | 45:14 |
That would be great. | 45:16 | |
How do you account for this back lash? | 45:19 | |
- | It was in the works. | 45:24 |
- | Say some more. | 45:26 |
- | It was in the works. | 45:27 |
The Institute for Religion and Democracy, | 45:29 | |
as far as I understand, was a mainstreaming | 45:30 | |
of a religion office under Reagan. | 45:36 | |
And, they spun themselves off and they established | 45:41 | |
three targets and there was a grant proposal | 45:49 | |
that Joyce Sohl knows about. | 45:51 | |
Oh you should, a little more background | 45:53 | |
that you might want to take a look at-- | 45:56 | |
- | Absolutely. | 45:58 |
- | Is a book called, United Methodism at Risk. | 46:00 |
- | I have that, yes. | 46:03 |
- | Okay. | 46:05 |
- | Thank you. | 46:06 |
- | In the back of that is a grant proposal, | 46:06 |
an appendix, a grant proposal from the Institute | 46:09 | |
for Religion and Democracy. | 46:13 | |
It'll give you the year and all of that. | 46:15 | |
That targeted the Episcopal church, | 46:19 | |
the United Methodist church, and the Presbyterian church, | 46:21 | |
U.S.A. | 46:24 | |
And so, we have had been, | 46:25 | |
it all started really with the Iraq contra reality | 46:29 | |
and once, as well as apartheid South Africa. | 46:35 | |
The churches were having a major influence | 46:40 | |
and Reagan would have none of that, | 46:42 | |
obviously from the history that got lived out. | 46:44 | |
He was against breaking down apartheid. | 46:48 | |
Et cetera. | 46:53 | |
So he set up this religion office in order to | 46:54 | |
manage, try to undermine the progressive voice | 46:57 | |
of our Protestants and the irony was birthed. | 47:02 | |
It became funded on its own. | 47:05 | |
And Mark Tully of the United Methodist Good News | 47:08 | |
because the point person in terms of United Methodist. | 47:11 | |
And when he was outed as a CIA agent or employee | 47:14 | |
of the CIA, his excuse was well, CIA people | 47:19 | |
have to go to church too. | 47:24 | |
But his specialty was (audio cuts out). | 47:27 | |
- | His specialty was? | 47:34 |
I missed that. | 47:36 | |
- | West Africa. | 47:37 |
- | West Africa, okay. | 47:38 |
- | And so some of the fall out of all of this, | 47:40 |
decades, 40 years or whatever, between then and now, | 47:43 | |
is that now West Africa that we're gonna have, | 47:48 | |
this next general conference we're gonna have | 47:55 | |
close to 40% African delegates and they are not always | 47:56 | |
in tune with Wesleyan theology and history. | 48:06 | |
Let's put it that way. | 48:11 | |
Now, there's change happening and part of what | 48:13 | |
we're doing in Africa is raising up the voices. | 48:14 | |
We're working directly with United Methodist Africans | 48:17 | |
and there is not a monolithic world view | 48:20 | |
which is very important to remember. | 48:26 | |
But the trajectory from the beginning of the right wing | 48:28 | |
movement and with a watershed moment | 48:33 | |
of (garbling) was roughly to today and how that | 48:36 | |
has continued to, they've continued to try to restructure | 48:42 | |
the church and if you can't, with all of the denominations, | 48:45 | |
and many of them, you know, had major fall out | 48:51 | |
from Re-Imagining. | 48:54 | |
If you cannot take, there were a couple different goals. | 48:56 | |
One is to divide up the inner church center | 48:59 | |
and break it open and get denominations | 49:04 | |
to move away from each so you no longer have | 49:07 | |
this coordinating hub of the inner church center. | 49:11 | |
So, divide up the churches. | 49:15 | |
Attack them on any issue whatsoever. | 49:19 | |
They don't care about gay people, | 49:24 | |
they don't care about abortion, | 49:26 | |
they don't care about women. | 49:28 | |
But whatever issue is handy, attack the church, | 49:30 | |
undermine the church, break it up. | 49:33 | |
And, if possible, take it over. | 49:35 | |
And one of the strategies was also | 49:39 | |
to create parallel structures so that if the church was | 49:40 | |
ever so wobbly that there's this parallel structure | 49:45 | |
that could just step in. | 49:49 | |
And so all mission sending society for the United Methodist | 49:51 | |
parallel, the seminaries, and of course, | 49:54 | |
each of those had its own life and was able to | 49:58 | |
drain resources away from progressive parts | 50:01 | |
of the United Methodist church. | 50:06 | |
So, all of that is not unrelated to the Re-Imagining moment. | 50:09 | |
It was a particular moment where they, | 50:15 | |
for the first time honestly, | 50:18 | |
they were able to attack the United Methodist women | 50:21 | |
and get real traction. | 50:23 | |
They had been attacking around abortion | 50:26 | |
and around feminism and all that | 50:29 | |
and they have not really even gotten traction on abortion. | 50:30 | |
Among some people, yes, but mostly people who were just | 50:35 | |
naysayers anyway. | 50:38 | |
But, this was it. | 50:40 | |
And this one shocked. | 50:43 | |
The whole sexualization of theology | 50:44 | |
and the accusation of goddess worshiping. | 50:47 | |
That shocked the average human Methodist woman. | 50:53 | |
And so that was the moment when there were able to get | 50:57 | |
some traction. | 50:59 | |
And, permanent damage to the unity of the denomination | 51:02 | |
and respect for United Methodist women. | 51:06 | |
- | So you said it was permanent damage? | 51:10 |
Could you say a little bit more about how that was? | 51:13 | |
- | Well, kind of the internalized oppression | 51:15 |
of like, oh don't say Sophia. | 51:18 | |
That kind of piece. | 51:19 | |
And, the inability to, really up until then, | 51:21 | |
United Methodist women felt free to be on the cutting edge | 51:29 | |
of theology and issues. | 51:32 | |
After that, you will not see that. | 51:35 | |
(mumbles) | 51:37 | |
There were issues that continued to be raised | 51:38 | |
but in terms of willingness to advocate | 51:40 | |
around abortion, it was pretty much gone. | 51:45 | |
Really gone. | 51:50 | |
They were not willing to have any more major blow back. | 51:53 | |
You cannot find (garbling) substantive actions | 51:57 | |
besides a patch approach to the cope of discipline. | 52:02 | |
That's it. | 52:07 | |
So I would say, yeah, that's permanent damage | 52:09 | |
that has not been recovered. | 52:12 | |
- | And you think it was because the charges of, | 52:15 |
they could make the charge of goddess worship | 52:18 | |
and the sexual issues and that was? | 52:20 | |
- | They were able to get enough traction | 52:23 |
and enough controversy that United Methodist women | 52:26 | |
and the leadership did not want to deal with that | 52:31 | |
ever again. | 52:35 | |
And, we also had some leadership transitions | 52:37 | |
that went for better, for worse. | 52:40 | |
After Joyce Sohl then we had Jan Love | 52:43 | |
and she only stayed two years. | 52:47 | |
She just took the job, I won't say anything | 52:49 | |
because it's on tape, but she did not enjoy her time | 52:52 | |
with United Methodist women. | 52:55 | |
And, she became the dean of the school in, | 52:57 | |
what's it called, in Atlanta. | 53:04 | |
- | The school, I'm sorry, I missed that. | 53:07 |
- | In Atlanta. | 53:08 |
What's the name of that? | 53:09 | |
- | Emory? | 53:10 |
- | Yeah, Em. | 53:11 |
- | Emory? | 53:12 |
- | Yeah. | 53:13 |
- | Candler. | 53:14 |
- | Candler, thank you. | 53:15 |
Which was a nice match for her because she really wanted | 53:16 | |
to be in the academic world and I think | 53:19 | |
it was a little bit shocking to be in the lay women's word. | 53:21 | |
Wait, this is not what I pictured it as. | 53:24 | |
Because United Methodist women had had this reputation | 53:28 | |
for being on the cutting edge but the organization | 53:31 | |
is everyday women. | 53:34 | |
You know? | 53:35 | |
But they are not | 53:36 | |
your highly informed everyday woman | 53:39 | |
but everyday women none the less. | 53:43 | |
And I think it was, she was not used to being | 53:46 | |
in an all women's environment and I think it was | 53:48 | |
a bit of a culture shock. | 53:51 | |
And so, two years later, she was gone. | 53:52 | |
And then, so those kinds of transitions blend themselves | 53:54 | |
to the need for stability. | 53:58 | |
And so you combine everything with that | 54:05 | |
and you get a less and less willingness to take risks | 54:08 | |
and the financial reality were dire over that time period | 54:12 | |
for United Methodist women and so there you get, | 54:20 | |
I think you can argue that the financial realities | 54:22 | |
were as important as Re-Imagining for the decreasing | 54:26 | |
willingness to (garbling) high risk moments. | 54:31 | |
- | And I don't know if you can answer this question. | 54:36 |
If you can't, that's fine, but I know that | 54:38 | |
Maryanne Lundy in the Presbyterian church | 54:40 | |
lost her position in the women's division, | 54:42 | |
it was attacked but no one lost their position. | 54:46 | |
Do you have ideas on why that was | 54:49 | |
in terms of the way they were structured or anything? | 54:52 | |
- | I do. | 54:54 |
- | Good, good, please, tell me. | 54:55 |
- | My theory is, at least in part, is that the hierarchy, | 55:01 |
the hierarchical nature of United Methodists | 55:09 | |
actually worked for us. | 55:13 | |
- | Say some more about that, interesting. | 55:16 |
- | Well, with the Presbyterian structure | 55:18 |
you have (garbling) of bishops and I'm trying to recall, | 55:21 | |
it seems to me like we garnered some support from bishops | 55:34 | |
and I can't remember who. | 55:39 | |
- | Yes. | 55:41 |
- | I think it's a good question to ask other people. | 55:42 |
- | Sure. | 55:43 |
- | Joyce would remember better than I would. | 55:45 |
- | Bishop Susan Morrison was a major person. | 55:48 |
- | She was there too. | 55:51 |
- | Yes, yes. | 55:52 |
- | Yeah, so she would remember the bishops who were helpful. | 55:54 |
But in any case, and I don't know if this makes any sense | 55:59 | |
at all but I felt like our structure was helpful | 56:05 | |
in protecting me. | 56:08 | |
I was not hung out to dry. | 56:10 | |
And so, I'm sorry I can't be more precise than that | 56:13 | |
at this point but I remember thinking vividly | 56:17 | |
that if I'd been in the Presbyterian structure, | 56:20 | |
I'd be gone. | 56:23 | |
- | Yes, yes. | 56:24 |
And related to that, there was, and I don't know | 56:25 | |
if you recall this and that's fine, | 56:28 | |
but the bishops, United Methodist bishops | 56:29 | |
finally wrote a report on Sophia. | 56:32 | |
I don't know if you recall that? | 56:34 | |
- | That's right. | 56:36 |
That's, and that's exactly what helped | 56:37 | |
because there was playing for time a little bit. | 56:39 | |
So they took the time to take the complaint seriously | 56:44 | |
and write the report and so we have the formal report. | 56:48 | |
So yeah, that was a moment of the hierarchy helping us | 56:54 | |
move through this. | 56:58 | |
- | Yes, yes. | 56:59 |
Yes. | 57:00 | |
And how about a time of hope, a time of threat? | 57:02 | |
Do you recall that at all? | 57:06 | |
- | Yes. | 57:08 |
Refresh my memory. | 57:10 | |
- | Sure, it was statement by a group of nine | 57:12 |
United Methodist women, Jeanne Audrey Powers, for example, | 57:14 | |
you mentioned her earlier. | 57:18 | |
Bishop Morrison and they spoke out, had a press conference | 57:20 | |
on the International Women's Day. | 57:23 | |
- | All coming back to me. | 57:25 |
- | Yeah. | 57:27 |
- | Yeah, that was really strong statement as well. | 57:29 |
I was trying to remember if I, I think I signed that | 57:34 | |
after the fact, you know. | 57:37 | |
I don't know if there's a collection of signatures. | 57:39 | |
- | There is, yeah. | 57:41 |
And I can look. | 57:43 | |
There was a total, it started out with 800 | 57:44 | |
and went well beyond that, so very possible, yes. | 57:46 | |
I can look. | 57:50 | |
- | I'm sure I was in there. | 57:51 |
- | Yeah, yeah. | 57:52 |
- | Had a J in front of my name, J. Ann Craig. | 57:54 |
- | Right, yes. | 57:56 |
Well, shall we move to, in the end, | 57:57 | |
how would you define Re-Imagining? | 58:01 | |
What was Re-Imagining in the end? | 58:03 | |
- | Re-Imagining was traditional theology | 58:06 |
interpreted, Trinitarian theology, interpreted by women | 58:11 | |
who were misinterpreted in the after the fact | 58:14 | |
by people who only wanted to undermine all | 58:23 | |
of the denominations that's represented. | 58:27 | |
And the women who were there. | 58:30 | |
And a short. | 58:33 | |
- | Yeah, that's good. | 58:34 |
In the end, when you look at the significance, | 58:36 | |
in the end, what aspects of this Re-Imagining were most | 58:38 | |
significant to you and why? | 58:42 | |
- | The seriousness of the theological work | 58:45 |
and the biblical work that the women did. | 58:48 | |
So that's amazing and that was my take away | 58:56 | |
and the end, I took it seriously as well. | 59:00 | |
- | I'm impressed. | 59:04 |
You went and did doctoral work because of this. | 59:05 | |
- | I did. | 59:07 |
- | That is amazing, Ann. | 59:08 |
(laughing) | 59:09 | |
You took it really seriously. | 59:10 | |
(laughing) | 59:11 | |
- | I did and I was like, | 59:13 |
it was kind of a question of like, | 59:15 | |
what is this about? | 59:16 | |
Why are we so vicious with each other | 59:19 | |
and, you know, the one take away from my PhD work | 59:21 | |
is well, respect the way we do theology. | 59:23 | |
You know? | 59:26 | |
It's like out of our conflicts, come our theologies. | 59:27 | |
And, it's just, it's like, oh, okay. | 59:31 | |
Now I know I'm doing theology. | 59:34 | |
(laughing) | 59:37 | |
And at the heart of it, really in the thick of it. | 59:40 | |
And, you can say there was not literal blood on the floor | 59:46 | |
during this time and half in those periods | 59:50 | |
when there have been literal blood on the floor. | 59:53 | |
You know, people lost their lives | 59:56 | |
over these theological arguments. | 59:57 | |
So progress, maybe. | 59:59 | |
It's still vicious. | 1:00:02 | |
- | Yes, yeah, yeah. | 1:00:04 |
There were charges of heresy but no burning at the stake, | 1:00:06 | |
literally. | 1:00:08 | |
(laughing) | 1:00:09 | |
- | Not literally. | 1:00:11 |
- | Yeah. | 1:00:12 |
Judging from your face, it felt like it came pretty close? | 1:00:13 | |
- | Probably when you lose your livelihood for folks. | 1:00:17 |
And, you experience permanent harm and damage | 1:00:21 | |
to the psyche of women. | 1:00:26 | |
Yeah, and it's not harmless. | 1:00:28 | |
- | Exactly, you're right. | 1:00:31 |
Yes, yeah. | 1:00:33 | |
How did your involvement in Re-Imagining | 1:00:35 | |
change your perspective on feminist theology and, | 1:00:37 | |
or on the church? | 1:00:40 | |
- | Well, I think one of the things I came away with, | 1:00:43 |
that's a good question because it was one | 1:00:45 | |
of those moments where I said, oh, this is why women | 1:00:49 | |
should have PhDs. | 1:00:54 | |
That was a real like aha moment | 1:00:58 | |
because I was like why would anybody want to do that | 1:01:00 | |
and why should we be messing with all of that? | 1:01:02 | |
And I was like, that's why. | 1:01:06 | |
It's because there's scholarship that needs to be done | 1:01:08 | |
and women bring a completely different perspective on it. | 1:01:12 | |
And, they will read stuff that men will skip over. | 1:01:19 | |
Or downplay or misrepresent or whatever. | 1:01:24 | |
And, who reads it, who does the scholarship | 1:01:29 | |
makes all the difference. | 1:01:32 | |
- | Yes. | 1:01:35 |
- | So that's big, that was big. | 1:01:36 |
- | Yeah. | 1:01:38 |
And then what would you say? | 1:01:39 | |
What specific contributions did Re-Imagining make | 1:01:40 | |
to Christian theology and, or liturgy? | 1:01:42 | |
- | Yeah, oh wow. | 1:01:47 |
Thank you for that. | 1:01:49 | |
(laughing) | 1:01:51 | |
A whole liturgical piece that (mumbles) element. | 1:01:52 | |
Oh my goodness. | 1:01:56 | |
You know, the unveiling of the very first | 1:01:58 | |
sacramental, of the cups of the milk and the honey | 1:02:05 | |
and the wine. | 1:02:11 | |
The milk and honey, the water, and the wine cups. | 1:02:13 | |
Huge revelation. | 1:02:16 | |
You know? | 1:02:19 | |
- | Revelation in what way? | 1:02:21 |
Of like, first of all, the communion hasn't been done | 1:02:23 | |
the same way for ever and ever and the obvious, | 1:02:29 | |
despite, well, | 1:02:36 | |
you cannot have milk without an inherent feminine element. | 1:02:40 | |
You just can't. | 1:02:47 | |
You know, so and then the whole connection | 1:02:48 | |
to the Hebrew text which is inherent | 1:02:52 | |
and in the water and in the wine. | 1:02:56 | |
It's profound, deeply profound. | 1:02:59 | |
So they'll trip that as a liturgical moment was | 1:03:05 | |
earth shaking and life changing, | 1:03:11 | |
theology changing. | 1:03:14 | |
So, yeah. | 1:03:17 | |
So say that question again for me. | 1:03:20 | |
- | Sure, what specific contributions did Re-Imagining | 1:03:22 |
make to Christian theology and, or liturgy? | 1:03:25 | |
- | So, the liturgy, certainly. | 1:03:29 |
The communion right was changed forever in my eyes. | 1:03:33 | |
And I think in the church's eyes. | 1:03:39 | |
But I don't think we will | 1:03:40 | |
I don't think it's played out in these generations. | 1:03:44 | |
It may play out in the future but not yet. | 1:03:47 | |
If the church survives, if it wants to survive. | 1:03:52 | |
So, that remains to be seen. | 1:03:55 | |
But it certainly changed a lot of individuals. | 1:03:59 | |
And the theology, I think, you can't unsay some things. | 1:04:02 | |
You cannot unread some things. | 1:04:11 | |
Despite the sort of theological terrorism | 1:04:14 | |
that I described can silence many women. | 1:04:17 | |
Your work in doing this and all of the women | 1:04:20 | |
who have recorded their perspectives | 1:04:24 | |
right from the beginning that the book | 1:04:27 | |
that they put together which, | 1:04:30 | |
what was the name of that? | 1:04:31 | |
Did they call it just Re-Imagining? | 1:04:33 | |
- | Remembering and Re-Imagining. | 1:04:34 |
- | Yeah. | 1:04:36 |
That was tremendous. | 1:04:37 | |
And, the solid, academic work that they did | 1:04:39 | |
to get to that event was just monumental and historic. | 1:04:45 | |
It was like a, for me it was a bit like a Vatican conclave | 1:04:51 | |
of women, you know? | 1:04:56 | |
- | Yeah, yeah. | 1:05:01 |
And, this may be a little redundant but I'll ask it, | 1:05:03 | |
you're coming up with great answers here. | 1:05:06 | |
What do you think is the greatest legacy of Re-Imagining? | 1:05:08 | |
- | You know, all of the things that I've been talking about | 1:05:31 |
but just that it happened. | 1:05:33 | |
And, I think | 1:05:39 | |
Nell Morton would've been very happy | 1:05:50 | |
hearing women into speech and that this was a moment | 1:05:52 | |
when we heard each other to speech | 1:05:57 | |
and it wasn't just, | 1:06:00 | |
it wasn't just saying about my feelings. | 1:06:01 | |
It was, I have read this. | 1:06:05 | |
I have researched this and it was a platform | 1:06:09 | |
for revealing what we have learned, | 1:06:12 | |
what we have connived our way into the stacks | 1:06:20 | |
of libraries and the archives of place and that place | 1:06:28 | |
and even the Vatican and people, women who have made | 1:06:34 | |
their way into places where they were not supposed to be | 1:06:37 | |
and came out with research and, you know, | 1:06:39 | |
laid it at the feet of other women. | 1:06:44 | |
So, it was historic, it was watershed, | 1:06:47 | |
it was frightening and a terrible wind moved | 1:06:50 | |
through the house and made a lot of noise. | 1:06:58 | |
(laughing) | 1:07:00 | |
- | That's great. | 1:07:02 |
I have a question. | 1:07:03 | |
Part of Re-Imagining was to bring, an important part | 1:07:06 | |
of it was to bring expansive or inclusive language | 1:07:08 | |
and feminist theology to the churches. | 1:07:11 | |
How would you evaluate where that is today? | 1:07:15 | |
- | Well. | 1:07:18 |
What a terrible question. | 1:07:24 | |
Stop asking that question. | 1:07:26 | |
(laughing) | 1:07:28 | |
I don't know, you know it's interesting | 1:07:30 | |
because I see women being included. | 1:07:31 | |
I see women being respected. | 1:07:33 | |
I see the changes we want to be implemented | 1:07:36 | |
in a very substantive way. | 1:07:39 | |
I do not see the language changing | 1:07:42 | |
and that's interesting to me. | 1:07:44 | |
It has changed some. | 1:07:47 | |
Nobody reacts, like in my congregation, | 1:07:50 | |
nobody reacts when God is called mother. | 1:07:54 | |
But, that's not the norm and we have a woman, | 1:07:57 | |
feminist pastor, you know. | 1:08:02 | |
And I don't find myself using inclusive language | 1:08:05 | |
in the same way I might have in the 80's and 90's. | 1:08:08 | |
So, I think it's a conversation that needs to be had. | 1:08:16 | |
- | And, I'm asking another awful question. | 1:08:22 |
Do you have any idea, here it comes. | 1:08:26 | |
Do you have any idea why that is? | 1:08:28 | |
I'd really like to know the answer to that. | 1:08:30 | |
(laughing) | 1:08:31 | |
- | I'm not gonna tell you. | 1:08:33 |
(laughing) | 1:08:34 | |
- | Good. | 1:08:35 |
(laughing) | 1:08:36 | |
- | I think people are tired, women are tired. | 1:08:38 |
And I think that in some ways, | 1:08:39 | |
maybe we haven't implemented it on some levels | 1:08:42 | |
because people don't react negatively | 1:08:45 | |
to the feminine imagery that we do incorporate. | 1:08:48 | |
People have gotten to the point where God, as a mother, | 1:08:54 | |
is part of what we talk about. | 1:08:58 | |
But, if you do it all the time or exclusively | 1:09:05 | |
like male language is regularly used | 1:09:09 | |
then people do react. | 1:09:11 | |
So, I think if Re-Imagining hadn't happened | 1:09:14 | |
and it happened now, there would still be a strong reaction. | 1:09:18 | |
So, I think it's just habit, ingrained world views | 1:09:27 | |
that are very difficult to change. | 1:09:33 | |
I think, you know, it is changing, | 1:09:37 | |
people's ideas of gender are changing. | 1:09:39 | |
The kind of fluidity of gender identity | 1:09:42 | |
is becoming more and more apparent. | 1:09:45 | |
So that is a different way of changing our imagery | 1:09:53 | |
and our identity and our own anxieties, | 1:09:58 | |
hopefully reducing anxieties, eventually, | 1:10:01 | |
about gender identity. | 1:10:03 | |
And that, I think, will project onto God | 1:10:06 | |
as opposed to using language to change | 1:10:09 | |
as I think our own shifting identities | 1:10:14 | |
are gonna change our perspective of God. | 1:10:17 | |
So I think it's a long haul and that may just be | 1:10:19 | |
the reality and people get tired. | 1:10:22 | |
Like, I'm not gonna do that for a long time. | 1:10:24 | |
And then someone else will have to pick up the torch | 1:10:27 | |
and do a new generation. | 1:10:29 | |
I just think it's deep. | 1:10:32 | |
So the answer in my book is a deep, culturalization | 1:10:34 | |
of gender. | 1:10:37 | |
And war weary. | 1:10:41 | |
(laughing) | 1:10:44 | |
I think that's probably it, in short, | 1:10:47 | |
- | Well, I have one other big question for you. | 1:10:51 |
- | Okay. | 1:10:54 |
- | And I'm gonna be interested in your answer, | 1:10:55 |
especially given what you're doing about progressive | 1:10:57 | |
movements in Africa. | 1:10:59 | |
But, what does Re-Imagining mean today? | 1:11:00 | |
And by that, I don't mean necessarily the community | 1:11:03 | |
or that conference. | 1:11:05 | |
I mean what needs to be re-imagined today | 1:11:06 | |
or what is being re-imagined today? | 1:11:09 | |
- | Well, I think church itself is being re-imagined. | 1:11:15 |
And, not fast enough because I think it's kind of | 1:11:19 | |
dissipating before our very eyes. | 1:11:24 | |
And that's been, | 1:11:29 | |
honestly that has been, at least in part, | 1:11:31 | |
the result of the constant harangue of the right wing. | 1:11:34 | |
And, intentional, strategic goals to undermine | 1:11:38 | |
progressive Protestant groups in the United States | 1:11:43 | |
and that has had fall out around the world. | 1:11:46 | |
And, some of the strategies have been to intentionally | 1:11:48 | |
foment hatred around LGBT issues in places like Africa | 1:11:52 | |
among the Anglicans there as well as a whole plethora | 1:11:57 | |
of folks, political and religious alike. | 1:12:01 | |
And, (audio cuts out) have completely politicized. | 1:12:05 | |
- | How do you see church being re-imagined? | 1:12:12 |
That's a more-- | 1:12:16 | |
- | Well, I think people are going outside of churches | 1:12:17 |
to find their spiritual nurture. | 1:12:19 | |
Churches, some churches are smaller and more welcoming. | 1:12:23 | |
I think churches are a little more humble, all in all. | 1:12:36 | |
It's like, well, where we gonna make it? | 1:12:39 | |
And, it's like, how do we serve people a little more? | 1:12:43 | |
And of course there's still the, | 1:12:48 | |
but even mega churches and the big people who are, | 1:12:50 | |
evangelicals who are making lots of money, | 1:12:55 | |
they're trying to re-position themselves | 1:12:58 | |
because they see the handwriting on the wall | 1:13:01 | |
that they're version of narrow mindedness, | 1:13:03 | |
in many of those cases, is not gonna survive. | 1:13:06 | |
So, I think there's change all across the spectrum. | 1:13:11 | |
And, it's only natural but I think it has the potential | 1:13:15 | |
of some realignments. | 1:13:19 | |
You've got a whole swath across the denominations | 1:13:23 | |
of progressives and you have a whole swath | 1:13:27 | |
of more and more intransigent, entrenched right wing, | 1:13:30 | |
hard line, rigid people and they've been reinforced | 1:13:35 | |
by talk radio and right wing talk radio. | 1:13:42 | |
So you've got that swath that's, can be mobilized | 1:13:49 | |
as we have found by Trump and that's unnerving. | 1:13:54 | |
But I think the folks across here are trying | 1:14:00 | |
to make contributions to society | 1:14:05 | |
and their respective congregations and bring some humility | 1:14:07 | |
as well as some generosity and some sense of the universal | 1:14:11 | |
journey toward God that runs across denominations | 1:14:19 | |
and religions that there's, | 1:14:24 | |
that's the changing church. | 1:14:27 | |
But this is the changing church too. | 1:14:30 | |
The rigid. | 1:14:32 | |
People were not as rigid as they are today. | 1:14:33 | |
At least not as many and not as mobilized | 1:14:37 | |
and not as politicized as they used to be. | 1:14:39 | |
They tended to be on the outs and they tended to be | 1:14:43 | |
a little more humble and that came after | 1:14:47 | |
the scopes trials and the whole monkey and evolution | 1:14:50 | |
but they have regained their irrationality. | 1:14:53 | |
(laughing) | 1:14:58 | |
And their commitment to it. | 1:14:59 | |
So, what do you do? | 1:15:02 | |
So yeah, so there's a lot of change. | 1:15:05 | |
I would say it's happening at different levels. | 1:15:07 | |
It'd be fantastic if the Catholic church ever really | 1:15:09 | |
embodied compassion that the Pope | 1:15:11 | |
is kind of tip toeing toward. | 1:15:15 | |
Even an anti-violence message toward gender, | 1:15:18 | |
sexual minorities would be earth changing. | 1:15:22 | |
So, the Catholic church is changing | 1:15:29 | |
and for him to go to a mosque and do all that is big. | 1:15:31 | |
So the world is changing. | 1:15:38 | |
- | Yes, yes. | 1:15:40 |
Well, I have one last specific question for you. | 1:15:41 | |
We are working on a Re-Imagining website | 1:15:44 | |
and I would love any suggestions you have | 1:15:47 | |
about what would be helpful to include in it, | 1:15:50 | |
who would benefit from it. | 1:15:53 | |
We're just looking for ideas and suggestions. | 1:15:55 | |
- | Well. | 1:16:00 |
I think, you know, all of this runs the risk, | 1:16:05 | |
and did run the risk of leaving a lot of women behind. | 1:16:08 | |
So, like, how do you do with some literature in the bible | 1:16:15 | |
and wisdom theology in a way that is accessible | 1:16:21 | |
and to make sure that the hard core research | 1:16:26 | |
that's so critical to the validation of the Re-Imagining | 1:16:32 | |
experience of research, that that doesn't become | 1:16:39 | |
the dominant theme in a website. | 1:16:44 | |
It needs to be there but I think the real goal | 1:16:48 | |
and the way to move the findings of the experience of that | 1:16:51 | |
into more mainstream church women would be | 1:16:57 | |
to make it accessible and to have some process | 1:17:02 | |
involved in it of helping women read the bible | 1:17:07 | |
with different eyes and read the bible | 1:17:13 | |
through the eyes of wisdom literature | 1:17:16 | |
because it's all there throughout it. | 1:17:19 | |
So those would be some of the things | 1:17:24 | |
that I would look for. | 1:17:26 | |
- | Yes. | 1:17:28 |
Very helpful. | 1:17:29 | |
Is there anything else that you would like to add | 1:17:30 | |
that we haven't discussed, Ann? | 1:17:32 | |
(woman sighs) | 1:17:37 | |
- | It would be fun to do a few conference calls, | 1:17:42 |
recorded conference calls to jar people's memories. | 1:17:52 | |
- | Oh yes. | 1:17:56 |
- | Some group conference calls. | 1:17:58 |
- | Great idea. | 1:18:02 |
- | Yeah, and to record those with some of the, | 1:18:03 |
say have a group of about six women and have them | 1:18:08 | |
chose each other. | 1:18:10 | |
- | Oh! | 1:18:11 |
- | Uh-huh. | 1:18:12 |
And, what do you remember? | 1:18:14 | |
Even getting some United Methodist women | 1:18:16 | |
who were there together. | 1:18:18 | |
What do you remember? | 1:18:20 | |
What happened to you afterwards? | 1:18:21 | |
And then just, 'cause I realize that it's all here | 1:18:22 | |
but it takes a little digging. | 1:18:26 | |
- | Yes. | 1:18:31 |
- | In the memory file cabinets to, | 1:18:32 |
like the paper and now I remember it. | 1:18:34 | |
And then I don't want to conjure up some memories, | 1:18:37 | |
just like, well, I kind of remember that but I think | 1:18:42 | |
it happened this, you know. | 1:18:44 | |
It needs to have some checks and balances | 1:18:45 | |
so other people who were there can do that for us. | 1:18:47 | |
And it's like that moment when I got the United Methodist | 1:18:52 | |
women together, I don't know, I remember the feeling. | 1:18:57 | |
I remember what I kind of did but I don't remember | 1:19:01 | |
the content as well as I want to. | 1:19:04 | |
But I think other people would who were there. | 1:19:07 | |
- | Yes, yes. | 1:19:09 |
- | They were listening to me. | 1:19:11 |
I was talking, they were listening, you know. | 1:19:12 | |
(laughing) | 1:19:14 | |
- | Yes, yes, that is a very creative, interesting idea. | 1:19:16 |
If it turns out I can work this out, | 1:19:19 | |
I'll be emailing you, okay? | 1:19:21 | |
- | Yeah, and would love to get a group of Presbyterian women | 1:19:23 |
together, talk to each other, and some of the (laughing). | 1:19:26 | |
It might even be interesting to get Mark Tully | 1:19:33 | |
and some of them. | 1:19:35 | |
Are you interviewing anybody on the right wing? | 1:19:38 | |
- | Not really. | 1:19:41 |
- | They had their chance. | 1:19:43 |
I kind of agree with that. | 1:19:45 | |
Although, I wonder what they would say, you know? | 1:19:49 | |
- | Yes, I do. | 1:19:53 |
Well, I'm still thinking about that. | 1:19:54 | |
- | Yeah, don't spend a lot of time worrying about it. | 1:19:56 |
(laughing) | 1:19:59 | |
You've got plenty to do with this. | 1:20:01 | |
I'm so happy you're doing this. | 1:20:04 | |
- | Oh, thank you. | 1:20:06 |
Me too. | 1:20:07 | |
Me too. | 1:20:08 | |
Shall I stop the recording now? | 1:20:08 | |
- | Sounds good. | 1:20:11 |
- | Is this a good place to stop? | 1:20:11 |
Good, let me just turn that off. | 1:20:12 |