Marlow, Eily / Re-Imagining Collection / Duke Digital Repository

Interviewer

Eily, thank you so much

0:01

for being interviewed.

0:03

If I could just get some background,

0:04

if you could say and maybe spell your name?

0:05

Eily

Okay, it's Eily, E-I-L-Y.

0:08

My real name is Elizabeth

0:12

-

Oh!

-

Marlow, M-A-R-L-O-W.

0:14

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Okay, thank you.

0:15

And are you lay or clergy?

0:18

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Clergy.

0:19

-

And your denominational affiliation?

0:20

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Is Presbyterian.

0:23

-

Great, thank you.

0:24

When and where were you born, Eily?

0:26

-

I was born in Waukesha, Wisconsin.

0:28

-

Okay.

0:31

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March 18, 1975.

0:32

-

Okay, great.

0:35

And where did you go to graduate or divinity school?

0:37

-

McCormick Theological Center in Chicago.

0:40

-

Okay, great.

0:42

And what work or ministry were you doing

0:44

at the time of Reimagining?

0:46

-

The first Reimagining, I was a college student

0:48

at Macalester.

0:52

-

That was in '96?

0:53

-

Uh-huh.

-

Yeah.

0:55

-

Yeah.

-

The first one you spoke at or the?

0:56

-

Well, I'm thinking of the one that.

0:57

I spoke in '97.

1:01

That was the one after.

1:01

'96 was the first one, right?

1:02

-

'93 was the first one.

1:03

-

Oh, '93!

1:04

-

Yes, yes.

-

So I was a college student then, too.

1:06

-

Okay (laughs), okay, good, good.

1:07

And then in 2003, what kind of work were you doing?

1:08

-

I was a chaplain

1:12

here at Macalester, the Associate Chaplain.

1:13

-

Great.

1:16

And could you say a little bit about the work

1:17

you're doing now?

1:18

Which is very exciting, by the way.

1:19

-

Oh, thank you.

1:20

So right now, I am the Program Associate

1:21

for vocation reflection at Macalester College,

1:23

so working with students on asking bigger questions

1:27

of meaning and purpose in their life

1:31

and doing everything from looking at ethics

1:32

in the professional life

1:37

to doing vocational discernment

1:38

and looking at kind of civic leadership

1:41

and helping students understand their responsibility

1:45

to the world.

1:48

-

Fantastic, that's great.

1:50

And do you remember when and how you got interested

1:52

in feminist theology?

1:54

-

Yeah.

1:56

So for me,

1:59

it was,

2:02

I mean, if I think about,

2:05

I was exposed to feminism before I was

2:07

a post of feminist theology,

2:09

and I came to Macalester as a Presbyterian

2:11

and actually had it in Biblical verses

2:13

in my application!

2:16

(interviewer laughs)

2:17

But when I got here,

I realized I was not going to be able to be Christian.

2:20

That was not,

2:22

that was not going to be a way of being

2:24

in this new context.

2:26

And so I really kind of put that piece of myself aside

2:27

and Macalester held a lot of my values already,

2:31

my social, political,

2:33

and the value of service to society

2:34

and so it kind of worked in some ways

2:37

because I was still living out of faith

2:40

but didn't see I could be feminist and Christian

2:43

and this place didn't give me,

2:48

at first, a possible path for that.

2:52

And so I guess it was two,

2:55

I mean, it was really two pieces.

2:57

First it was in the classrooms.

3:01

Tony Pen was now at Rice University,

3:03

was here and taught black liberation theology,

3:04

Latin-American liberation theology and feminist.

3:07

He did a little bit on feminist theology

3:11

and he has our papers.

3:15

He had us write our own theology.

3:18

-

Wow.

3:20

-

I mean, he, you know,

was just so empowering as a 20-year-old

3:21

to kind of write our beliefs

3:23

and so that was, I think, one piece.

3:25

And then I started getting involved in the chaplaincy here

3:30

and Lucy Forester Smith was a Chaplain

3:34

and she was a feminist

3:35

and she introduced me to the National Network

3:37

Presbyterian college women

3:41

and then I think she was the one who invited me

3:42

to speak at Reimagining.

3:44

-

Oh!

3:45

-

Initially.

And when I was exposed to Reimagining

3:47

and I got to experience

3:50

all of these people I was reading in the classroom,

3:53

seeing that this was not just,

3:58

these weren't just academic ideas,

4:02

but these are ways of living a spiritual life

4:04

and it was just,

4:07

that conference just totally,

4:10

it was just such a transition for me.

4:12

-

Wow.

4:16

-

Because I was,

I had,

4:19

I just lost my thought.

4:21

Yeah, I remember with Tony,

4:24

my senior year I was doing,

4:25

Reimagining was when?

4:27

-

'93 was the first one

4:29

and you spoke at '96.

4:31

-

So it was in the summer of '96?

4:32

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I don't remember what month it was, I'm sorry.

4:36

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I think it was.

4:38

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Yeah.

-

So that next year then, I went and did

4:39

an independent study with him on queer liberation theology.

4:41

This was before that was even written.

4:44

Now there's tons of written, but back in the '90s.

4:45

-

Wow!

4:47

-

And I went to Spirit of the Lakes Church

4:49

and was researching whether you could live,

4:51

you know, if worship could

4:55

hold this theology in a meaningful way.

4:57

So it was my capstone.

5:05

I mean, it was my capstone.

5:07

I looked at this too in terms of communication studies,

5:08

in terms of preaching and liberation theology

5:11

and my religious studies Masters,

5:14

looking at too, queer liberation theology

5:16

and whether liberation theology

5:19

could be lived in worship.

5:21

So really at the end, became a.

5:23

And then I started coming out as a Christian on campus.

5:26

I remember I got interviewed

5:28

(interviewer laughs)

for the house for today,

5:30

and I would let them publish it,

5:31

but I said feminist Christian before every time

5:33

they said I was a Christian because I was so nervous.

5:35

-

Wow.

5:37

-

For my parents to,

it was just a big transition,

5:40

but a really liberating one, too.

5:42

-

And what kind of reaction did you get

5:46

as a feminist Christian on campus?

5:47

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Well, I found a lot of other feminist Christians

5:49

and mostly, we started women's theology,

5:53

women's, after,

5:57

I mean, this was too, I think, inspired.

5:59

I don't know if this was inspired by Reimagining,

6:02

but my involvement

6:04

certainly was, we started a women's spirituality group

6:06

called Threads on Campus

6:09

and it was women who were pagan, and Christian,

6:10

and Jewish, and I think too,

6:13

that was, yeah.

6:16

So I found my people

6:18

within that year.

6:21

So I had kind of in some ways

6:24

two sets of friends, then.

6:25

The people who understood this piece of me.

6:26

-

You talked about that group in your presentation in '96.

6:30

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Oh, I did!

6:34

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You did, yes!

About Thread, yes (laughs).

6:35

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Okay, yeah.

6:37

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Yes.

-

I don't know what,

6:39

-

Yes.

-

What came first.

6:40

-

Yes, yeah.

That's amazing, that's really interesting.

6:42

So you think it was probably the chaplain

6:43

who got you involved?

6:46

-

Yes, uh-huh.

-

You went to the '93?

6:48

The very first one?

6:50

-

I did no.

6:52

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Oh, okay.

-

She got me involved just by speaking.

6:53

They probably had asked her to get

6:55

a college student to speak

6:56

-

Yes.

And then I was that college student (laughs).

6:58

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Okay (laughs).

7:00

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I spoke, but then I got to go

7:01

to the whole conference.

7:03

-

Wow.

-

And that was such a gift.

7:05

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What do you?

7:09

It's been a while,

7:10

I know.

7:11

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Yeah.

-

But other moments stand out?

7:12

What do you remember from it?

7:13

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I remember letting Russell,

7:15

I think she spoke, right?

7:17

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Mm-hmm.

7:19

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Oh, and I remember,

wasn't there the art that was being produced

7:21

while the conference was going?

7:25

The intentionality,

7:27

that things could be done.

7:29

I don't think I really come from a culture of retreats.

7:30

I mean, now I lead retreats and I go to retreats,

7:33

but I don't think I've ever

7:36

that in of itself,

7:38

that something could be so beautifully

7:39

and thoughtfully done

7:41

in academics and kind of your spiritual life

7:43

could be nurtured in tandem

7:46

and I remember they had paper on the tables

7:47

for you to color and to.

7:51

I mean, the whole, yeah,

7:53

it wasn't just this radical theology

7:55

that was liberating,

7:58

really liberating

8:01

my spirit

8:06

to kind of claim kind of a new relationship with God,

8:08

which was happening.

8:11

And it wasn't just my academic self

8:13

being nurtured, it was the space

8:17

that was created, I think, too.

8:19

I've been nurtured by people before,

8:22

but I don't think I had ever been nurtured

8:24

by a space so completely,

8:26

and I think that was so

8:28

different.

8:30

-

Yeah.

Wow.

8:32

Do you remember, and I know it's been a while,

8:34

what that experience was like for you

8:36

in giving your presentation?

8:37

You were part of a group of people.

8:39

-

Yeah, I don't have tons of.

8:42

I remember walking out, but I remember it.

8:44

It was sharing, maybe, the story of becoming Christian

8:47

on campus.

8:51

Yeah.

8:53

I have to say,

8:55

I dislike like public speaking,

8:57

even to this day.

8:59

-

Oh!

-

But I remember it feeling really powerful.

9:00

I think probably because of this space

9:04

and I think that time in my life

9:06

of feeling like when you're surrounded by strong women

9:10

who are supporting you,

9:15

so I remember it feeling like this incredible like,

9:18

I've got something to say and these people want to hear it.

9:22

It wasn't just like, okay, now I got to do my part,

9:26

or yeah, it definitely felt like significant,

9:31

like every voice spoken was really heard and savored.

9:36

So this idea of yeah,

9:40

I think too, it got,

9:43

I had been mentored by Lucy

9:46

and she was kind of my first feminist mentor,

9:50

but it was kind of like feeling like this room

9:54

of there is just so much possibility

9:57

or feeling lifted up,

10:00

or, yeah.

10:02

-

Yeah.

10:05

There was a lot of enthusiasm and cheering

10:06

during your talk.

10:08

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Yes.

Oh!

10:10

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Especially near the end.

Yeah, yeah.

10:11

I'm going to have to send this to you.

10:12

-

Oh (laughs).

10:13

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Yes (laughs).

Yeah, so that's wonderful.

10:17

So and then you also went,

10:19

you also spoke at the 2003

10:21

-

Yeah.

-

Conference.

10:23

Could you talk about what you remember from that?

10:24

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Yeah.

10:25

-

What that was like.

-

Yeah, I have to say that probably it was not

10:27

as good (laughs) experience

10:29

because I had just been through,

10:31

I had been through hell with the church

10:34

and I was in the midst of going through,

10:37

-

Wow.

10:38

-

I think that was

in the midst of my ordination process

10:40

and going through the NNPCW thing,

10:41

it was like, I remember just feeling anxiety

10:45

through most of it and through a lot of

10:49

the preplanning process too,

10:51

because I was at the point where the church

10:53

had beaten me down to such, you know?

10:56

-

Yeah.

10:58

-

That like, it wasn't even.

In some ways, I felt a little like,

11:01

and this, again, I was in kind of a wounded place

11:04

-

Yes.

11:07

-

For multiple reasons,

but very much so

11:09

in terms of my relationship

11:12

with the church and ordination.

11:15

I felt like I needed to do it to honor the women

11:20

who went before me.

11:24

There was no saying no

11:25

because it was such an honor to be asked

11:27

and I think that the community of Reimagining.

11:30

There are specific people, but also the spirit of it

11:34

had given me so much

11:38

that even then,

11:41

it was,

11:43

I needed to take part in it.

11:45

But I remember it being painful.

11:48

-

Yeah.

11:50

-

And not being able

to fully access it,

11:53

you know, when I was kind of,

11:55

you know, could just have this total,

11:58

total spiritual experience when I was 19 years old

12:01

or,

12:05

-

Yeah.

-

(mutters) 20 years old and what I'm doing with.

12:08

-

Yeah.

12:11

-

Yeah.

But I still,

12:12

I don't remember a lot of it.

12:13

I remember our pieces.

12:14

I remember what I spoke.

12:16

I remember the nun that gave massages

12:17

(interviewer laughs)

12:20

or did the healing touch.

12:21

But I think like,

12:29

yeah.

12:34

It was such a painful part of,

12:35

it was a pretty hard point in my life.

12:38

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Yes

12:41

-

It was hard to let it,

12:42

let myself be nurtured by it.

12:44

I felt like,

12:47

and I think too in terms of choosing,

12:48

because I remember what I spoke about.

12:50

I spoke about a time during NNPCW

12:52

when,

12:56

I forget which piece it was,

12:58

but I remember, we had been up until like,

12:59

2:00 in the morning, and we actually had a moderator

13:01

of the Presbyterian Church on the phone

13:04

at 2:00 in the morning and they had just de-funded us

13:05

or something had happened.

13:07

I don't remember, but that morning,

13:09

there was either going to be,

13:10

it was either the morning

13:12

before that, which was the morning before the vote

13:13

to de-fund us,

13:15

or it was the morning after

13:17

when we were going to bring forth,

13:20

and this is the last time this ever happened

13:22

in the Presbyterian Church

13:24

because then they made a ruling that this was not allowed.

13:25

A protest.

13:27

So we did a protest.

13:29

-

Oh.

-

And after the protest,

13:30

David Bev Jones had become like almost a grandfather,

13:33

father figure to me now.

13:37

Didn't know him at the time.

13:39

Stood up and said, "We need to change our vote,

13:40

"and this is too important,

13:42

"and we can't betray

13:44

"our daughters like this.

13:46

"Change the vote."

13:48

-

Wow, no!

Seriously?

13:51

-

Oh, it was just such,

you know, so much drama, you know?

13:53

But I remember that morning.

13:55

I think this is what I spoke about,

13:58

was Jim Rogers.

13:59

And I have a feeling, I have to say.

14:01

I just had a baby and it was a boy,

14:04

but if it was a girl,

14:07

I was going to name her June.

14:09

And June doesn't even know what an impact

14:10

she has had in my life.

14:12

I mean, just such an amazing woman.

14:13

I don't know if you know June Rogers?

14:15

-

I don't, no.

14:17

-

But someone who, yeah,

14:18

just such a powerful presence.

14:20

But she came into our hotel room

14:22

and she sang the Sofia blessing to us.

14:26

-

Oh my.

14:29

-

And it was just so,

14:31

-

Oh!

-

So nurturing and powerful

14:34

to just be blessed by this woman

14:37

in this way,

14:39

and it was just.

14:40

And that experience too was amazing

14:42

because I remember when

14:43

they de-funded us, the next day

14:46

we were like, okay, we're going to have,

14:50

or the next hour.

14:52

There's going to be a little gathering of some people

14:54

who wanted to do something,

14:55

and it was like,

14:57

100 people.

14:57

-

Wow.

-

And lots of, a lot of people were there

14:59

to do queer activism

15:00

and they put me an another young woman

15:01

in their room and saying, "What do you want from us?

15:04

"Tell us what you want from us."

15:05

It was just like, no way.

15:07

Again, here is feminism in action.

15:08

We're not going to deal.

15:10

This is like Jamie Sparr

15:13

(interviewer laughs)

and all these people.

15:14

What can you do?

15:15

You tell us what you need.

15:16

And as a young person, I was just like, what?

15:18

You're the wise ones.

15:21

You're the, you know?

15:23

But again, you know?

15:25

Being an ally in that way,

15:27

but then having this very spiritual moment.

15:28

So I think I spoke about that, I think,

15:30

at the gathering because it just was such,

15:33

I felt like I needed to honor.

15:37

That was the best story I could offer

15:41

that would honor

15:42

what the women had given me throughout the years.

15:44

But I think the hardship

15:48

was then, you know,

15:50

the laymen kind of wrote about it,

15:53

as they would (laughs).

15:54

But then my home church,

15:56

which is more.

15:58

Waukesha, Wisconsin is a very conservative place,

16:00

where I'm from,

16:02

and my home church, they already

16:03

were embroiled in a battle

16:05

of me being a lesbian, so I was trying to be ordained

16:08

as an out lesbian

16:12

and then the Reimagining stuff came out

16:13

and I think that I was involved in this.

16:15

And this, all of the sudden,

16:18

the fact that I was a lesbian (laughs)

16:20

was like hardly an issue

16:22

and they were just so upset by this,

16:26

you know?

16:29

-

Really?

-

And again, the Da Vinci Code had just gone out,

16:31

so there was all these articles.

16:34

I think more public conversation

16:35

about this notion of Sofia,

16:37

so having to do a lot of work.

16:39

I mean, back to them wanting me

16:41

to write essays about the milk and honey ritual

16:44

and things that, you know, again,

16:46

I remember that I have to say that

16:49

from '97

16:54

was so impactful.

16:56

-

Really?

-

For me, too.

16:57

Oh my gosh, I just.

16:58

Oh, and the biting of the apple.

16:59

Do you remember that?

17:01

-

Mm-hmm.

17:02

-

Oh, my gosh!

-

Say some more about,

17:03

what about the milk and honey ritual?

17:04

-

Oh, my gosh!

17:05

I mean,

17:07

yeah, it was

17:09

this idea that,

17:10

yeah, that communion,

17:15

that there was,

17:16

that communion isn't the be all, end all,

17:18

that we could create ritual that was meaningful

17:21

and that it even had historical ties

17:24

and connected us to Christ Christa,

17:30

the Christ community

17:32

and that like,

17:37

I even had,

17:39

and my relationship with communion

17:40

had changed over the years.

17:41

I've been able to reimagine it,

17:42

but I have to say, in moment,

17:45

it's just like wow.

17:47

Now I kind of see what sacrament feels like.

17:48

You know?

17:50

Wow, I'm part of something that's bigger than myself

17:52

in terms of a spiritual moment,

17:56

but bigger than myself even in a historic moment

17:58

and it was so transcendent and I think we did it

18:01

the last day

18:05

and the biting of the apple, too,

18:07

was just like,

18:09

like thing that,

18:12

yeah, this idea of just,

18:14

oh, it was just so empowering as a young person

18:19

to say,

18:22

to do that not as an eff you to the church,

18:24

but to do it as a Christian

18:27

and as an act of faithfulness.

18:28

It was just like,

18:31

I just blow my mind.

18:32

I thought Macalester was a radical place,

18:34

but this was just like,

18:36

I never like,

18:37

so many things that like,

18:39

it's one of those moments when you're like,

18:41

how did they,

18:44

this is at the very,

18:46

this speaks to the very core of me.

18:48

How could they have known?

18:50

-

Yes.

18:51

-

What could they have known

to draw this out?

18:53

This is,

18:54

you know,

18:56

yeah.

18:57

It was just so interesting because you know,

18:59

I think the tears are too,

19:00

it's like (sniffs).

19:02

I'm sure you're getting this,

19:04

but I don't have a spiritual life

19:05

like that anymore.

19:06

I don't have a feminist

19:07

-

Yes.

-

Christian community.

19:08

They don't, I don't even know

19:09

if they exist anymore (laughs).

19:11

So it's like,

19:12

-

Yes.

-

Those moments, oh!

19:13

Were so amazing.

19:15

So then years later,

19:20

having to like (laughs)

19:22

write essays about it

19:24

from a theological perspective

19:25

for my home church and it felt so vulnerable.

19:27

It was something that was so spiritual

19:30

and life giving to me.

19:33

Now I have to defend it

19:34

and try to explain it to them,

19:35

and I'm feeling sorry for them too

19:37

because they're trying to do their best,

19:39

and I understand it does sound

19:41

so different from anything they have ever encountered

19:43

(laughs), you know?

19:46

And then,

19:48

so it was just,

19:50

yeah, it was just a difficult time in my life.

19:51

-

Oh yeah.

19:54

-

And then, I think,

too, it was hard because

19:55

at that point, I was much more,

19:58

I was working for that all I freely serve

20:01

and I was on there.

20:03

I did a lot of leadership in the GLBT Movement

20:05

in the Presbyterian Church

20:06

and so, I think too,

20:10

to have to be a public figure,

20:12

I'm just someone who hates conflict.

20:14

I mean now in my 40s, I'm like,

20:16

well you know, my 20-year-old self, like,

20:17

why did she do that?

20:20

You know.

20:21

-

Wow.

-

She loved justice so much

20:23

(interviewer laughs)

20:24

and she loved the community,

and she loved.

20:25

But I think what it was is the community

20:26

in the margins.

20:27

It's kind of like,

20:28

I think of it as kind of like a,

20:29

an order, like a Catholic order.

20:35

If you think of the Benedictines

20:37

or the Franciscans,

20:39

like I felt like our band of Presbyterians

20:41

were on the margins

20:45

and I love them so much I wanted to stay

20:46

in that community,

20:49

but now, I think fighting for ordination,

20:50

now being within it,

20:53

I have no connection to the Presbyterian Church anymore.

20:54

I don't go to Presbyterian meetings,

20:57

I go to church sometimes,

20:58

and to think that I fought so hard,

21:00

but I think what I was fighting for too

21:03

was to stay in that beloved community of outsiders,

21:05

so it was so ironic that we were fighting to come in.

21:10

I mean, I still,

21:12

yeah, some moments I think it was the best thing

21:14

I did, and I have a lot of pride

21:16

for standing up for myself

21:20

and for moving queer ordination foreword.

21:22

You know how a story can be both and?

21:26

It was that and it was very painful,

21:30

and I'm wondering

21:33

why did I do that (laughs)?

21:36

-

Oh (laughs)!

21:37

-

So anyway.

21:38

-

That's a lot

of bravery for a young woman,

21:40

I have to say.

21:42

-

Yeah!

It was, but I think the thing

21:43

that I regret most is I feel like

21:45

my spiritual life

21:50

suffered so much, you know?

21:51

That I feel like,

21:54

I wonder if I hadn't

21:56

gotten so involved in NNPCW

21:58

and ordination battle

22:00

and if some of that could have been preserved.

22:02

You know?

22:05

-

Yeah.

-

I'm not sure.

22:06

-

Yeah.

-

I still have a,

22:08

I shouldn't say that.

22:09

Maybe it's more,

22:11

and maybe that's not my spiritual life,

22:12

but it's my relationship with Christianity

22:13

and my relationship with the church.

22:15

-

Yes.

22:17

-

And in some ways, my spiritual life

22:18

to be honest.

22:20

-

Yeah, yeah.

What happened with that ordination process?

22:22

So you wrote essays for your home church?

22:26

How were they received?

22:29

-

Yeah, I don't think they were received well.

22:38

I mean, yeah.

22:42

I never felt understood (laughs).

22:44

-

Yes, yeah.

22:46

-

Yeah.

22:47

-

And you were ordained?

22:49

-

I was, yeah, yeah.

22:51

-

Yeah.

So it was difficult.

22:53

That church lost a lot of membership over it

22:54

and there was lots of all (mutters) meetings

22:56

and it was very.

22:58

That was the most difficult piece.

23:01

The Presbyterian piece was less so

23:05

because the Milwaukee Presbyterian is pretty progressive,

23:06

so it was more my home church,

23:08

which was more difficult.

23:12

-

Yeah.

23:14

-

Yeah.

-

I know some about this,

23:15

but could you just fill me in on the piece

23:17

about the college, the Presbyterian college?

23:19

Just give a little background about that

23:22

if you don't mind.

23:24

-

Yeah.

So NNPCW?

23:25

-

Yes.

-

So it was a division of women's,

23:28

of the women's ministry,

23:31

the Presbyterian church.

23:32

And there was a hired staff

23:34

and kind of a leadership committee

23:37

of women,

23:40

Presbyterian women throughout

23:42

the United States from different colleges

23:45

and they produced resources and had retreats

23:48

and Totty will talk,

23:51

Totty wrote.

23:54

Totty was in that position

23:55

-

Wow.

-

And she wrote.

23:56

Actually, she wrote (laughs).

23:57

Oh, it's such a,

23:59

it's, to this day, a beautiful resource,

24:00

so I have it (laughs) on my shelf.

24:02

She wrote the first one that I think

24:03

got us into so much trouble.

24:05

You know?

24:07

-

What was it about?

-

Well, it's this wonderful guide

24:09

and you take it out and there will be like,

24:10

a discussion of sexuality,

24:13

or, you know,

24:14

oh, I'm just trying to think of some of the other,

24:17

the environment or this thing,

24:20

and it would be like, out of a,

24:22

you know, discussion.

24:24

A little bit about feminist theology,

24:26

or maybe a couple of Bible verses

24:27

and a little bit of theology

24:30

that was influenced by feminist theology

24:31

and some activities and discussion questions

24:33

and it was just like, a packet that's really usable

24:35

and that women could use on their campus.

24:37

And I think that was, you know,

24:40

and it was very inclusive of GLBT people

24:43

and so then what happened was,

24:46

they went on major attack.

24:48

They called us the prodigal daughters

24:50

that would not repent

24:51

and the last vestige of Marxism is hanging off

24:53

the skirts of NNPCW (laughs).

24:56

So there was

25:00

the Charlotte assembly.

25:01

We were their focus

25:03

and it was just me

25:05

because I was the,

25:06

-

Wow.

-

At the time, I was working with Ann Julie,

25:08

who was an utter saint in my life.

25:10

She was working as the Director of Women's Advocacy

25:12

at the church headquarters

25:16

and I was her intern

25:18

and then another woman

25:19

was the intern for NNPCW.

25:21

So she and I were really the only two women representing

25:23

the NNPCW at the Charlotte Assembly.

25:26

And then the Fort Worth Assembly

25:29

was kind of another two terribles (laughs).

25:31

We went and tried again.

25:34

They spent $20,000 on a video

25:35

trying to sent it to every voting commissioner

25:38

about how awful we were,

25:42

and it was just such a very small,

25:43

I mean, this was such a teeny program,

25:45

but I think they wanted to,

25:47

we were scapegoated,

25:48

saying, "well, look how bad

25:50

"the PCUSA is,"

25:52

-

Yeah.

-

And kind of using us

25:56

to get the larger church in trouble,

25:58

you know, in some ways,

26:01

the larger denomination leadership

26:03

and all that.

26:05

But it was, yeah.

26:07

It was very, very difficult.

26:09

-

So there was a vote to de-fund a protest

26:11

and then a vote to?

26:13

-

Refund.

-

Refund?

26:15

-

Yes, in the Charlotte

Assembly, yeah.

26:17

-

And then what happened to it

26:18

after that?

26:21

-

Yeah, so yeah.

And then, I think, at the next assembly,

26:23

there was a vote to study it

26:26

and that was awful because then,

26:27

we had like,

26:29

you know, there was like, a committee

26:31

and there would be these meetings

26:33

where the laymen would come

26:36

and we would come and we would have to give testimony

26:38

and just all this,

26:41

just stuff.

26:43

It was really icky.

26:44

And so there was a study,

26:46

and I think then we were allowed to go on.

26:48

They actually asked me to be the chaplain.

26:50

I thought it was going to be.

26:52

But I told them, I said,

26:54

"I would love to be the chaplain."

26:55

Once I got ordained,

26:56

so it continued.

26:59

I don't know if it still continues to this day,

27:00

but this was like,

27:01

I don't know.

27:03

This was a while ago now,

27:04

but I told them I would be the chaplain

27:07

if, that there would be no question

27:12

about my sexuality, then.

27:15

I'm not going to do this again,

27:17

you know (laughs)?

27:19

And they said, "Yes, yes, yes."

27:20

But the first day was like,

27:22

the woman who was

27:23

Barbara Dua,

27:27

-

D-U-A, Dua?

27:29

-

I don't know,

describe it to me, yeah.

27:32

-

Barbara Dua.

-

Yeah, yeah.

27:33

-

The person who is

in her position, I'm forgetting her name.

27:34

-

Yes.

27:36

-

Was calling my phone

and just up.

27:37

"You can't say this and you can't say that,"

27:39

and I just said no.

27:40

So then I had to write the women a note and say,

27:42

"I can't operate in this denomination

27:45

"with this kind of scrutiny

27:48

"and I just don't think,

27:51

"just ethically

27:52

"and spiritually it's going to be

27:55

"something I can do."

27:57

So that was disappointing because they were so excited

27:59

to have me, and then it was like,

28:01

yeah, within a week.

28:03

-

Wow.

-

So I think

28:06

I would have loved to have gotten back involved,

28:09

but I didn't want to be,

28:10

once again,

28:13

the lightning rod (laughs).

28:15

I was done doing that, so.

28:16

-

Well, as you look at this backlash

28:18

against Reimagining, against the Presbyterian women,

28:21

how do you account for it?

28:25

What was it about?

28:28

-

Yeah.

28:31

Yeah, it's so interesting.

28:39

I know, I wish I had.

28:44

If you would have asked me this 10 years ago,

28:46

I would have had a really articulate answer.

28:49

This is more in the middle of it,

28:51

you know.

28:52

-

Of course.

-

Yeah, I think that there,

28:56

it was just,

28:58

I mean, I just think of misogyny

29:00

as a very, very core.

29:02

I think there is.

29:06

I don't even think it was fear, you know?

29:09

At first you think of fear of losing power.

29:13

There was some real hatred

29:16

within it.

29:20

I think that's.

29:23

I remember, it was the first

29:25

general assembly was the first time

29:31

in my whole entire life

29:34

I had felt the absence of God.

29:35

It was the scariest moment

29:37

in my life.

29:39

-

Oh!

-

And it lasted for like, a half-an-hour,

29:40

but I had never experienced so much hate!

29:44

-

Oh!

29:50

-

And in the context,

especially in the context of a faith community

29:52

and I still,

29:57

yeah, I still don't understand,

30:01

yeah, I guess I still don't understand.

30:04

I used to, I think, have a little bit more,

30:09

and with my ordination, I really found compassion,

30:11

I think, for people who didn't understand

30:14

and I could get in front of the Presbytery

30:17

and there were moments when my heart,

30:18

I felt this incredible sense of protectedness

30:21

because I felt so much compassion for people.

30:26

They'd ask me a nasty question

30:29

and I could feel compassion for them,

30:30

so I felt protected,

30:32

like,

30:33

-

Yes.

-

Like I had,

30:35

you know, like, yeah.

30:38

You don't understand me.

30:39

There's this divide.

30:41

I don't want this divide, you know?

30:42

With Reimagining,

30:44

it's so much more difficult

30:49

for me to have that type of compassion

30:52

for those who don't understand (laughs)

30:56

because I,

31:00

it did seem like it came from such a vile place

31:01

and I mean, just patriarchy

31:08

at its,

31:10

like, at its just fiery, like,

31:12

it just sickest,

31:15

at the very sickest.

31:18

It's like, some things are systemic

31:20

and you are just so removed.

31:23

The ideology has affected you

31:26

or has affected culture or society

31:29

and it has tricked down

31:31

and you are living it,

31:32

you don't know you're living in it.

31:34

And you know, this was just,

31:36

this was just hatred (laughs)

31:38

for women at its very core.

31:41

It was just, yeah.

31:45

I just,

31:47

I can give no excuse (laughs).

31:50

You know what I mean?

31:52

-

Yes.

-

I try so hard to understand.

31:53

Maybe this right now is,

31:55

I haven't thought about these things.

31:57

I haven't really thought about it in a long time.

31:59

-

So it was hatred directed against

32:03

organizations and communities that you really cared about

32:05

and it sounded like it was also directed personally at you.

32:08

-

Yeah, yeah.

32:11

-

Yeah.

32:14

-

Yeah.

Yeah, it seemed very,

32:19

I think, too,

32:20

it did seem like there was no,

32:22

especially, I think,

32:27

because it was a young person.

32:29

Usually, how you deal with young people is,

32:30

you want to bring them back to the fold.

32:32

You know?

32:33

-

Yes.

-

And we don't,

32:34

and I could even see the Conservative argument like,

32:36

we could do better for our young women

32:39

and articulation of that,

32:43

but it wasn't that.

32:45

There was just (laughs).

32:48

I mean, there was such hatred

32:50

and it's probably because

32:51

they saw us as something different than young women.

32:53

They saw us as, I think,

32:57

I don't know, maybe powerful

32:59

that we had this.

33:00

Maybe it was that we were powerful

33:03

and had this power

33:04

to change the church

33:07

and so they couldn't see us as, you know,

33:09

kind of some of,

33:12

not, I think, we were most vulnerable,

33:13

but a population within the church

33:16

that needed, first and foremost to be cared for

33:19

and then we can talk about the politics

33:23

of what is happening within the,

33:25

you know what I mean?

33:27

-

Yes.

-

It was just,

33:28

-

It was to expel you.

It wasn't to,

33:32

is that was it felt like?

33:33

-

Yeah.

33:34

-

That you were dangerous

or?

33:36

-

Yeah (laughs).

-

Yeah, and we have to get rid of you.

33:38

-

Yeah, I think that is just, yeah.

33:39

-

Yeah.

33:40

-

Yeah.

33:44

-

And I can't, I mean,

33:46

and yet, you at least for a while stayed.

33:48

You still got ordained.

33:50

-

Yeah, yeah.

33:51

-

What was that coming from?

33:52

Where were you?

33:54

How did you maintain that kind of strength

33:55

and commitment?

33:56

-

Oh yeah, it was in,

33:58

it was in the community of women

34:01

and the LGBT community

34:05

that I found so much spiritual life.

34:06

Just like Reimagining, we could create that space

34:09

for each other, you know?

34:12

We're on a treat, on a committee meeting.

34:14

We could create those beautiful experiences

34:15

for each other along the way, you know?

34:19

Which, I think, that was definitely the strength.

34:23

And luckily, That All May Freely Serve,

34:29

I'm not sure, I wouldn't maybe say that's the other

34:31

more like Presbyterians

34:35

and Covenant Network, but That All May Freely Serve,

34:37

this is the LGBT organization within the church

34:41

that I worked within

34:44

was just feminist to its very core.

34:46

I mean, Lisa Larges and Janie Spar

34:48

and so, in some ways,

34:50

it was,

34:53

there wasn't a distinction between the movements, or.

34:58

-

Yeah.

35:02

-

And so yeah, it was definitely those communities.

35:04

-

Wow, this is really powerful (laughs).

35:08

So looking back on it,

35:11

in the end, how would you define Reimagining?

35:13

-

Hmm.

35:19

It was a historic event

35:23

within Protestantism

35:25

that awokened a larger public

35:28

to feminist theology

35:31

and that also gave space

35:34

for feminist theology to be lived

35:37

in worship

35:40

and in the spiritual practice of women.

35:42

And yeah.

35:48

Yeah, I guess I wouldn't define it

35:52

by the backlash at all, you know?

35:53

-

Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

35:55

That is a great description (laughs).

35:57

-

Better for it.

35:58

(interviewer and Eily laugh)

35:59

-

Yeah, and to follow along with that,

36:01

so what aspect of Reimagining were most significant

36:02

to you and why?

36:04

-

Oh, yeah.

36:06

I think I remember that book.

36:08

Of the book that we got, too.

36:09

I went back to that so often,

36:11

but I don't have it.

36:12

It would be great, too.

36:13

Some of the rituals and some of the,

36:14

oh, maybe I have it someplace.

36:16

-

The website.

36:18

-

Oh, the website.

Okay.

36:21

-

It will have it, yes.

-

Yeah.

36:23

-

You're talking about

the programs of the gathering?

36:24

-

Yeah.

36:26

-

Yes.

-

And I think there was like,

36:27

a binder that was,

36:28

but I think the ritual

36:29

-

Yes.

-

That was created was just,

36:31

was incredible.

36:36

I think ritual is just so important.

36:38

I think, too,

36:40

yeah.

36:51

I mean, I think the theology

36:54

around Christology, I think, is super important.

36:57

I mean, as a young person, I was so,

37:02

it's such an impression on me.

37:04

And yeah, I read Nakashima Brock's work.

37:09

She was just,

37:12

I got exposed to her.

37:14

And just, yeah.

37:17

She was such an inspiration.

37:19

For sure.

37:24

And then, yeah.

37:29

But then was also such a divide

37:31

because it was kind of older women, you know?

37:33

I think, for me, it was a mentoring community

37:35

and I never felt like an insider.

37:39

It's a community I got to be a part of at some points

37:43

and then be through Threads

37:46

and through GLBT Movement,

37:49

then I was able to incorporate and be a part of more.

37:52

Yeah.

38:00

-

Yeah.

-

I think the mentoring component was really important, too.

38:03

-

And did that just happen at the gatherings?

38:06

-

Well, I think it was

38:09

a mentoring community, for sure.

38:14

I think so often it's not individuals,

38:17

right?

38:19

-

Right.

-

That was so amazing to feel so held,

38:20

but then a lot of relationships

38:24

because then I moved to Louisville, Kentucky

38:26

and the church headquarters

38:29

-

Ah!

-

Right after that, so I graduated college in '97

38:31

and then I spent the next two years in Louisville,

38:34

so all of the relationships with the women

38:36

who were involved in Louisville level.

38:39

-

Oh!

38:41

-

So it was like,

I got to know

38:43

the Minnesota women,

38:46

but then it was really those women

38:48

then those next to years that became so important

38:51

to me as well, and so.

38:56

-

Had you met them at the Reimagining gathering?

38:59

-

No.

39:01

-

Yeah, okay.

-

Because they were, yeah.

39:03

-

Yes.

-

They were probably there.

39:06

-

Yes.

-

But I hadn't realized that my life

39:07

was going to take me to Louisville.

39:08

-

What were you doing in Louisville again?

39:09

-

I was the intern for women's advocacy.

39:11

That was my first job out of college.

39:13

-

Okay.

39:15

-

Yeah.

-

Exciting.

39:17

Did you involvement in Reimagining

39:20

change your perspective on feminist theology

39:21

or the church?

39:24

-

Yeah, almost definitely.

39:29

Yes.

39:31

I mean, feminist theology in that,

39:35

yeah.

39:39

See it as a living, breathing thing

39:41

and in my whole,

39:43

my whole journey was going to be to Union

39:45

in New York and to study with all these,

39:49

you know, Beverly.

39:51

And I did get into New York,

39:53

and I was actually living in Morning Side Heights.

39:55

-

Oh!

39:57

-

Like two weeks

before I was to go to Union

39:58

and study with,

39:59

you know, Beverly Hurst.

40:02

That was my dream.

40:03

But then I,

40:05

yeah, I couldn't.

40:07

I kind of got scared financially

40:10

because I didn't get any scholarships

40:12

and so I was like.

40:15

So the last minute, McCormick offered me

40:16

this big scholarship

40:19

and I decided to change courses.

40:20

But yeah,

40:28

I think that realizing that these weren't just words

40:30

on a page, that these were.

40:33

And I think that's,

40:35

when you read about Latin-American liberation theology,

40:36

it's so, like,

40:41

it's so contextualized

40:43

in a struggle for

40:45

actual like, physical liberation and freedom.

40:47

And it's being created by people on the margins

40:54

and I think I

40:59

like seeing,

41:01

Reimaginging help put me in a community

41:02

where I understood that feminist theology was the same.

41:05

It is being created by women

41:12

within the context not of their spiritual lives.

41:15

And even as academics,

41:19

Beverly, she's brilliant

41:20

and she's not just writing feminist theology.

41:22

She is a practitioner.

41:27

It comes from both a spiritual

41:30

and a theological space.

41:32

I think, too, being able to,

41:36

coming from Macalester being exposed to it

41:39

and then being able to see,

41:42

incorporate it into the lives of women.

41:44

-

What was different about Reimagining?

41:48

How did Reimagining do that?

41:50

-

Yeah.

41:53

Well, my only other experience

41:56

of shared religious life

41:59

had been, Threads, I mean, I guess.

42:03

And some

42:07

that was worship,

42:09

is Protestant worship.

42:10

So I mean like (laughs).

42:12

I had no idea

42:15

about the possibilities that I could live outside

42:16

of those bounds.

42:19

It just was,

42:24

yeah, it was just.

42:26

I mean now, as a minister,

42:28

I write a wedding,

42:30

I write someone's wedding ceremony

42:32

and I've got all this freedom

42:35

and the couple has all this freedom

42:38

and it's just this creative process.

42:40

(interviewer laughs)

42:41

And it's just like, wonderful thinking about

42:43

people's spiritual lives and creating this beautiful

42:44

experience that expresses that.

42:48

That was just totally outside of my realm of possibility,

42:50

I think.

42:54

-

Yeah.

-

To have, yeah.

42:56

And I think, too, inclusive language

42:59

was just so incredible.

43:02

This notion that God didn't have a gender.

43:08

All of these things

43:11

I could process them academically and mentally,

43:14

but to be able to live into them

43:18

was just, you know,

43:21

Reimagining was probably my first exposure of that.

43:23

-

Yeah, yeah.

43:29

That is great.

43:31

So in the end, what do you think

43:33

is the greatest legacy of Reimagining?

43:35

-

You know, it is hard.

43:42

It's been hard.

43:44

When I was a chaplain, it was hard being a chaplain

43:45

(laughs) and my students not caring

43:49

about inclusive, like, women.

43:50

And not caring about inclusive language

43:52

and not feeling like we need to do any

43:53

women's retreats (laughs).

43:55

In some ways, it's like, how can this happen?

43:56

How can this be so,

44:04

yeah, and so now,

44:10

like now, working at this engagement center,

44:12

I haven't been really like,

44:14

you know,

44:16

I'm not really up

44:18

kind of where feminist theology has gone, you know (laughs)?

44:19

-

Sure (laughs)!

44:22

How would you say where,

44:28

you mentioned you're not that connected

44:29

to the Presbyterian Church.

44:31

Do you feel,

44:32

how would you compare where it is now

44:34

to where it was then

44:36

in terms of inclusive language,

44:37

feminist theology and liturgy?

44:39

Do you have a sense of that?

44:41

-

I don't, not denomination-wide

44:43

because I've always been at churches where that is lost.

44:45

So I don't know.

44:51

But I do think, I mean, obviously,

44:53

you can use the GLBT example

44:57

as (laughs) the church has like,

45:00

massively shifted

45:03

and there is going to have to be a watershed moment

45:06

where people were exposed

45:13

to the great variety of Christian practice and belief

45:16

and that was like,

45:21

I think Reimagining in some ways was that first exposure

45:23

and it was painful,

45:26

but once we got,

45:28

I think it got less and less,

45:30

it was so painful

45:33

for both sides, apparently.

45:35

I want to believe it was actually painful

45:36

for these people who were so angry.

45:38

I want to believe that it was painful for both sides,

45:40

but I think it was less so.

45:42

Then it was like, okay, how are we going to,

45:44

we're going to fight this out,

45:47

but it wasn't going to be as violent, you know (laughs)?

45:49

So maybe it's.

45:52

And in some ways,

45:54

it was, yeah.

45:56

It was kind of like,

45:58

not just for feminism, but for.

46:00

And again, it's so hard for me to understand

46:04

how the Church at large experienced Reimagining

46:07

because I was so involved and knowledgeable.

46:12

Like, how?

46:16

But I think, at least in the Presbyterian Church,

46:17

in some ways

46:22

it was like a coming-out moment.

46:24

Women coming out of their hiding

46:27

and being able to be who they are.

46:29

And I thinK now,

46:33

that is maybe the legacy

46:34

that we do that more within the context

46:37

of our church lives.

46:39

I have to think that,

46:47

I know that feminist theology might not,

46:48

and kind of your

46:52

average Joe church might not make it to

46:55

the pulpit as such,

47:03

but because its being taught so now,

47:04

I think so across the board in Presbyterian seminaries

47:08

that I think pastors,

47:13

even your most moderate pastor now

47:15

has a range and can work within it

47:17

rather than,

47:19

so there is just so much exposure.

47:22

So I have to think that that makes an impact on women

47:30

in the pews.

47:33

That even a mail minister can even understand

47:35

God in new ways

47:40

and the Christ event

47:42

and can, even if he's not there,

47:44

at least reach in

47:48

and he can create a container for that now

47:50

because he's, hopefully, at least at McCormick,

47:53

he would have read, you know (laughs)?

47:57

His share of feminist theology.

48:00

I know Reimagining, as painful as the backlash was,

48:04

it did put feminist theology on the map

48:08

in the academy

48:11

and I think in the Church.

48:14

-

Yes, yeah.

48:18

Well, and to end, getting close to the end here,

48:19

I have one other big question,

48:22

and that is, what does Reimagining mean today?

48:24

By that, I don't meant just the conference or the community,

48:26

but what needs to be reimaginged today?

48:28

-

Oh, yeah, yeah.

48:31

-

In church, spirituality,

48:32

however you want to define that.

48:33

-

Yeah.

48:36

Oh, so much.

48:38

Yeah, I think worship needs to be reimagined.

48:41

I love church and I just don't like worship (laughs).

48:44

It's maybe because I know how good it can be.

48:48

-

Yeah.

48:50

How does it need to be reimagined?

48:52

-

I don't know.

48:54

I would like church to be more like

48:57

doing spiritual direction together.

49:00

You know?

49:04

-

Mm-hmm.

-

Where it's more interactional,

49:06

yeah, there's more interaction,

49:08

more sharing, more feeling like

49:11

we are, yeah.

49:16

On a journey together.

49:19

Yeah, so much needs to be reimagined.

49:25

I think I get pretty excited about,

49:28

I think, the relationship between Evangelicals

49:31

and Protestants,

49:34

and I think that's in the midst of being reimaginig

49:36

and I'm so excited about that.

49:38

I think that there's a lot of energy there

49:42

and I met a lot of Evangelicals

49:48

and I think that there is just,

49:49

and I think in the Catholic Church.

49:52

I may need to say that.

49:54

I think with the Pope, I think there is

49:56

a lot of Reimagining happening in the Church

50:00

right now, which is really incredible.

50:03

And just the right issues.

50:10

I think right now, for me,

50:12

what needs to be reimagined societally

50:14

is race relations and the environment

50:18

are the ones that I think

50:21

are most pressing need.

50:23

-

I have one last, very specific question.

50:27

(Eily laughs)

50:32

We are working on a Reimagining website

50:33

and we're just,

50:34

and part of it will be historical.

50:36

We'll be putting up,

50:37

digitizing conferences, putting up resources,

50:38

but we also want to include current resources and things.

50:40

And I'm just wondering if you have ideas

50:44

about what would be helpful,

50:46

-

Mm.

-

What would be suggestions?

50:48

How we could reach people, content,

50:50

both of those things.

50:54

Any of those things.

50:55

Any suggestions.

50:56

-

Yeah!

50:57

-

What would be useful to you or the people you know?

50:58

-

Oh, it's so interesting.

51:01

Some sort of networking device.

51:06

-

Yeah.

51:08

-

It's so funny.

I just was, just the other day,

51:10

was writing down names of women

51:13

that I needed to call to try to create

51:15

a woman's spirituality group now

51:16

and (laughs) I haven't had one.

51:18

This idea of finding,

51:20

you think would be easier.

51:23

I'm a clergy but I'm not that connected.

51:25

-

Yeah.

51:28

-

And I think yeah, a way of,

51:30

yeah, if there's any way of connecting people,

51:35

like-minded people,

51:38

or yeah.

51:41

I think simple liturgies

51:43

that could be used.

51:44

I think a lot of the Reimagining stuff

51:46

is because they're trying to teach theology through it.

51:47

-

Yeah.

51:50

-

It's pretty,

if I remember,

51:52

it's pretty thick.

51:53

-

Yes.

-

Because it needed to be.

51:54

It's teaching through the word,

51:56

which is so awesome,

51:57

but I think some,

51:59

that would be really great

52:00

to have like, some grab and go,

52:01

just the spirit

52:03

of things.

52:05

Yeah.

52:10

I think the most important thing

52:11

is the history.

52:13

Yeah.

52:17

Because a lot of, yeah.

52:19

And I think of,

52:20

yeah, a lot of women

52:22

who were involved have passed.

52:23

-

Yep.

52:26

-

So something that maybe honors their legacy.

52:27

-

Exactly.

52:32

This has been very rich and really wonderful.

52:33

Is there anything you'd like to add?

52:36

Something we haven't discussed that you would want to say?

52:39

-

Yeah, I can't think of anything,

52:43

but maybe I'll email you, too.

52:46

-

Good!

52:47

-

Because you brought back

some really good memories

52:48

-

Good.

52:49

-

That I have,

like the milk and honey ritual

52:51

and the biting of the apple.

52:53

I haven't thought about that in years.

52:55

-

Oh, wonderful.

52:56

-

Yeah, thank you.

-

Well, thank you.

53:00

Turn this off.

53:03

Marlow, Eily

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