Smith, Jerie / Re-Imagining Collection / Duke Digital Repository

-

All right, if you could say your name.

0:01

-

My name is Jerie Smith.

0:05

-

Thank you, and are you lay or clergy?

0:06

-

Both, sort of.

0:09

-

Sort of, now explain that

0:11

that's interesting.

0:12

-

All the time that I was

0:14

part of Reimagining, and up until

0:15

about six months ago I was lay,

0:18

or a certified lay professional

0:21

in the ELCA.

0:23

I am now ordained

0:26

in the Universal Church at the pressure

0:27

of several of my friends

0:32

who wanted me to do their weddings.

0:34

-

Could you say some more about

0:37

certified lay professional?

0:39

-

Well, it's

0:42

a credential that the Lutheran Church

0:47

offers to people who are not ordained,

0:49

and go through certain

0:52

processes of

0:55

casting out both verbally,

0:59

and focus on theological.

1:02

Just the ability to do ministry.

1:06

After you

1:09

have a certain amount

1:10

of experience in the church

1:12

then you can apply for their process.

1:14

Then the outcome is that you are

1:17

called an associate in the ministry,

1:19

so that's the title,

1:22

but it's a certification.

1:24

-

Okay, could you say a little bit

1:26

about your career

1:28

what kind of work you did?

1:29

-

Well, it's always been with

1:31

kids, youth, and young adults,

1:33

and I started out in camping,

1:35

and then was

1:38

a pseudo kind of youth director,

1:41

education person.

1:44

-

At a camp for a church?

1:47

-

For a church camping was about,

1:50

I think, there were two summers.

1:52

Then I got married

1:56

to one of the people I met at camp,

1:58

and we ran the camp for 2-1/2 years,

2:00

and came back to the Cities,

2:02

and then I was a youth education

2:03

person in the congregation

2:06

until we divorced.

2:11

Then I worked for Ebenezer Society

2:12

for 2-1/2 years as an administrator,

2:16

their Ebenezer, and Luther Halls,

2:20

which Luther doesn't even exist anymore.

2:25

After that I went to Campus Ministry

2:28

at the University of Minnesota where

2:31

I was until almost eight years ago.

2:33

Then I was offered a position

2:37

at the University,

2:39

and I've been there ever since.

2:41

-

In what position?

2:43

-

I am the Volunteer Coordinator

2:44

for the Aurora Center,

2:45

which is the Sexual Assault

2:47

Center on campus.

2:48

-

Part of that time

2:51

you ran a retreat center?

2:52

-

Yeah, John and I ran

2:54

the Center for Spiritual Growth

2:57

in Cambridge for about nine years.

2:58

Yeah, I think, about nine years,

3:04

and then sold it to two women

3:07

who the community call the nuns,

3:09

but they're a Lesbian couple

3:12

who had foster children and worked.

3:15

They were living in Pine City.

3:18

They had a very large house,

3:20

but not big enough

3:22

because their focus was to keep

3:22

siblings together when it was necessary,

3:25

and at that time they had four kids.

3:28

-

Wow.

3:30

-

They wanted a place

3:31

where they could do that.

3:32

You saw the property

3:35

they since have added a barn,

3:36

and a couple horses,

3:37

and chickens.

3:40

They're kind of self-sustaining.

3:42

-

Wonderful, it must feel good to know

3:44

that's where the Retreat Center went.

3:46

-

Yeah, because someone told me once

3:49

that one of the words for retreat

3:51

it has something to do with

3:54

foster care or the care of children

3:58

who are waiting for adoption, or something.

4:02

-

Perfect.

4:04

-

Yeah, it is.

4:05

Something's happened there that was good.

4:07

-

Yes, yeah.

4:11

Well, thank you.

4:13

Where did you to school,

4:14

graduate, or divinity school?

4:16

-

I had some courses

4:19

and classes at Luther,

4:20

but the Campus Ministry process offered,

4:21

again,

4:25

courses that were necessary

4:27

to contribute to the certification,

4:31

so I have what's called

4:33

the equivalency of an M.A.

4:35

-

Okay.

4:38

How and when did you first

4:41

become aware of feminist theology?

4:43

-

I don't know about feminist theology,

4:46

but I was part of,

4:48

and I'll figure out how to tie this in,

4:53

but I was part of the committee,

4:56

and the church in the Minnesota Synod

4:59

that certified all of the people

5:01

who were going through

5:03

the ordination process.

5:04

It was about 30, 35 people.

5:07

I was the first woman

5:10

ever to be on that committee.

5:11

At the time of the meeting

5:13

that I'm talking about

5:15

another woman had been added,

5:16

so there were two of us,

5:18

and about 30 people

5:19

around the table in a room.

5:21

We were trying to solve a pretty

5:22

difficult situation with a candidate

5:26

just had a whole bunch

5:31

of extenuating circumstances.

5:33

I remember

5:37

a lot of silence because he didn't know

5:39

exactly where to move or what to do,

5:42

and then voicing an opinion that I had,

5:44

and the silence continued, and continued.

5:47

Someone directly across from me

5:52

said exactly the same thing I said

5:53

who was a male,

5:55

and the Chair said,

5:57

"That's a great idea."

5:58

Someone sitting right next to me

6:00

who I'd known most of my life said,

6:02

"Didn't Jerie just say that?"

6:04

Then he just got red, you know, beet red

6:06

because he knew that

6:09

he kind of outed himself to the boys.

6:12

I went to the bathroom,

6:16

and in the bathroom tried to figure out

6:18

am I gonna go back in there,

6:21

or am I gonna leave?

6:22

It was just that click.

6:26

Some people have been telling me

6:30

that this happens.

6:32

You either experienced it before,

6:35

or realized it before,

6:37

but it was kind of

6:39

a big screen

6:42

in front of me.

6:45

I did choose to go back in.

6:47

-

Did you, yes?

6:48

-

Probably in part because

6:50

my stuff was in there,

6:52

you know, I had to go back,

6:54

pick it up, and leave.

6:55

-

Right.

6:57

-

But I did go back in.

6:57

Then I just started

7:02

to pay more attention.

7:03

Then about six or eight months later

7:05

I started up

7:09

a group for women

7:11

who many of us had been saying

7:13

to each other let's have lunch,

7:15

and never did it.

7:16

Barbara Lundblad was part of that group.

7:19

-

Really?

7:21

When would this have been roughly?

7:22

-

Now I'm glad I never made this up.

7:25

I was so afraid you were going to

7:27

ask me dates,

7:29

but it would have to have been

7:30

in the 60's.

7:34

-

In the '60's, okay, yeah.

7:35

Just to get a general sense

7:37

of when it was.

7:39

-

I started in Campus Ministry in '71

7:40

at least I know that

7:43

kind of that awareness

7:47

that helps.

7:51

It probably was '72, '73.

7:52

-

Okay, yeah.

7:54

What about this group

7:56

of women that you formed?

7:57

What was the purpose for it?

7:59

-

I don't know if you know Strengths,

8:02

or an app,

8:06

but it's a thing that's used

8:06

a lot in corporations,

8:09

and the university has been using it

8:10

where you get to know

8:12

your top five strengths.

8:13

One of mine is strategic,

8:15

so that's how my head kind of works,

8:17

but, okay, now I know this.

8:20

Now what can I do,

8:22

or what can I construct,

8:24

or put together that might help

8:26

to build on this,

8:29

and, also, help to validate

8:30

my own experience

8:32

by the experience of others.

8:33

I really was curious

8:36

about the relationship with women

8:38

with each other in the church.

8:40

-

Excuse me for interrupting.

8:42

Is this all Lutheran women in the church?

8:43

-

Yeah.

8:45

-

Okay, got it.

8:46

-

That kind of silly thing about

8:50

meeting people in other situations,

8:52

and saying, you know,

8:55

we really should talk,

8:56

or we really should do something more,

8:57

and neither person really

8:59

continuing to initiate it

9:02

intrigued me, especially,

9:05

when I started paying more attention

9:07

to what was going on in feminism.

9:08

I should say that not theologically,

9:10

but feminism was first

9:12

brought up to me by

9:13

Joanne Erickson, who I grew up with,

9:18

we knew each other from third grade.

9:21

We were at Gustavus together.

9:23

She left Gustavus when she graduated,

9:26

and went to New York,

9:29

wrote me a letter.

9:31

I was 21 years old

9:32

when I opened that letter,

9:33

and read it standing

9:35

in the kitchen of the house

9:37

we were living in on 3rd Avenue.

9:38

I had been married for

9:39

probably less than three years.

9:42

No, I wasn't 21, I was about 25.

9:45

The letter told me that she was

9:49

a Lesbian and a feminist.

9:52

I wrote her back and said,

9:55

I don't love you any less than

9:58

before I read the letter,

10:03

but you're gonna have to tell me

10:04

about this feminism stuff.

10:06

She sent me a whole bunch of things,

10:07

and in her letter back

10:10

she was kind of interested

10:12

in the fact that I responded

10:14

more to the feminism then I did

10:16

to her being a Lesbian.

10:17

-

Yeah.

10:19

-

In fact, it totally didn't

10:21

make any difference to me.

10:23

I knew who she was.

10:27

I don't know how I got into that.

10:31

-

Well, I'm curious,

10:33

what was your reaction then to feminism?

10:34

Do you remember when you started?

10:36

This was a vivid memory for you.

10:37

-

We were talking about

10:39

the group being formed.

10:41

I think

10:42

because of my personality, I think,

10:44

I think somewhat analytically,

10:47

strategically about what things

10:50

are going on,

10:51

but I learned through the human

10:52

potential movement,

10:55

and a lot of training,

10:56

and another certification that I have

10:58

in that to trust my gut,

11:01

and to try to put

11:03

both of those together,

11:05

so I had some

11:09

hunches

11:11

about

11:12

women just having a difficult time

11:14

figuring out how to do this

11:17

connecting thing

11:20

with competition

11:22

happening at the same time.

11:24

The original group was nine people.

11:25

Nine women three of whom

11:28

were professionals like myself

11:30

in the church.

11:32

Three of whom were

11:34

strong white women who were

11:37

really involved in their congregations,

11:39

and three pastor's wives.

11:41

We were together for ...

11:45

I know Barbara can

11:47

probably remember more.

11:48

Probably at least two years,

11:50

and maybe longer,

11:53

but within the first three

11:54

to four months we made a commitment

11:56

to meet, I think, at least once a month.

11:58

Sometimes, we met more than that.

12:02

The pastor's wives dropped out.

12:06

-

Really, do you know why that was?

12:08

-

Well, I think they were

12:11

more than concerned about the fact

12:13

that we were working

12:15

with their husbands.

12:16

-

Oh.

12:18

-

To kind of

12:21

know us more was more threatening

12:23

to them than less.

12:26

-

Really?

12:27

-

Yeah

12:28

-

That seems almost counterintuitive.

12:29

Interesting.

12:31

-

It was very unusual.

12:33

We continued and then a couple

12:39

of other people joined us.

12:41

-

What came out of that group?

12:43

-

Well, Barbara Lundblad

12:45

went to Union Seminary.

12:47

Susan (mumbles) went to Berkeley Seminary.

12:49

One of

12:55

the women had

12:56

a pretty serious psychotic break.

12:58

The rest of us actually supported her,

13:02

paid her car payment,

13:06

and a couple of other things to

13:07

be helpful.

13:11

and there's a lot of backstory in that.

13:12

I'm trying to remember who the other.

13:19

The other layperson where did she go?

13:20

She went to Philadelphia

13:24

to work for the LCA

13:25

at the time,

13:28

and married a professional golfer,

13:30

got divorced, she's back here now.

13:32

-

When you got together did you

13:34

all have stories about how hard

13:36

it was to be in the church?

13:38

Was that a common theme or not?

13:39

-

I wouldn't say hard, but some

13:46

of the the kind of emerging

13:49

challenges,

13:54

you know, and one story

13:56

was told then it was easier to identify

13:57

a story that might contribute,

14:02

but, I think, we weren't

14:03

as focused on the church I don't think

14:05

as we were on feminism,

14:07

and kind of trying to figure out

14:08

what's going on in human history

14:10

that may have something to do with

14:13

who we are as women.

14:16

We read a lot of articles.

14:17

We read Gloria Steinem.

14:19

Everything was breaking at that time.

14:23

-

And you were resonating with this.

14:26

-

Yeah, or, you know, able to wonder.

14:28

I don't know whether we looked at

14:32

any of that with a very critical mind

14:34

as much as kind of curiosity,

14:36

and interest, and amazement

14:39

because I think a lot of early feminism

14:41

really spoke to women's experience,

14:43

and you could resonate with,

14:46

again, not maybe so much with your head

14:49

as with your gut, you know,

14:51

someone speaking my truth

14:54

that I didn't expect to hear not here.

14:56

-

Yes, this is really important,

15:00

and kind of sets the stage.

15:02

Was there a point at which you then

15:03

discovered feminist theology in particular?

15:05

-

There was so much

15:15

that wasn't even published.

15:16

When I started it probably

15:22

would be more where that was when

15:24

Barbara went to Union because,

15:26

you know, everybody lives out there.

15:29

-

Yeah, so it was through her

15:31

that you started learning about it.

15:33

-

Yeah, but

15:34

I also

15:38

at that time,

15:40

or maybe a little bit later

15:42

I started a similar group

15:44

for women in Campus Ministry.

15:45

There were some staff.

15:49

-

To study feminism?

15:51

-

More consciousness raising.

15:54

When I first started in Campus Ministry

15:57

we were at the place of

16:01

it was the end of war,

16:06

Campus Ministry at the University

16:09

had been very much identified

16:11

with protesting the war.

16:12

Support for the ministries

16:15

was really down,

16:18

so we had to kind of

16:20

struggle and figure out how we're

16:22

gonna keep this boat afloat.

16:23

Probably two years after I started

16:28

we began a cooperative ministry

16:32

with Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod

16:34

which changed everything

16:36

about the role of women.

16:38

-

Could you say some more about that?

16:41

-

We packed up our stuff,

16:44

we sold our building, and we moved

16:45

into the Missouri Synod Building

16:46

not as co-owners, but as renters.

16:48

That was really intentional

16:52

because we knew that

16:53

we might have to leave quick,

16:54

and breaking a lease was a lot easier

16:57

than dividing a building in half.

17:00

-

How did it change the role of women?

17:04

-

Well, Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod

17:07

still does not recognize women.

17:08

If I had even at that time started

17:12

to think about being ordained

17:15

it wouldn't have flown.

17:18

I wouldn't have had a job.

17:21

I do remember thinking

17:23

some about it at that time, and then

17:25

being discouraged from doing that

17:29

because we had a really progressive

17:32

Missouri Synod pastor.

17:34

He did everything he could to put me

17:36

in front of the community

17:38

every time possible,

17:41

and I did preach there,

17:42

and I did lead worship,

17:44

but never when there was any official

17:46

from Missouri Synod Church.

17:48

Roger and I would

17:52

try to do some education

17:53

for Missouri Synod pastors,

17:55

which is always really interesting

17:57

because we could do a presentation

17:59

that I might even do the majority of it,

18:00

and question and answer at the time

18:03

they would ask questions of him.

18:05

That was really ...

18:08

-

Yeah.

18:09

-

We once did a workshop for a conference

18:11

Missouri Synod Conference.

18:15

There was a list

18:17

of workshops with names.

18:19

I think my title of my presentation

18:22

was probably kind of intriguing.

18:25

A lot of people started

18:27

to walk in the door they thought I was

18:29

because of my name ...

18:30

-

Jerie.

18:31

-

Thought I was a man,

18:32

turned around and walked out.

18:33

-

Really, wow.

18:35

-

I had a lot of experiences like that.

18:36

Again, that was increasing

18:40

my awareness

18:43

both of that role in the church,

18:45

and the role

18:47

in the broader community.

18:49

The women's group they formed

18:53

there were a lot of stories.

18:55

You know, I'm just sitting here

18:58

remembering a lot of painful stories

19:00

of Missouri Synod women

19:02

just never feeling fully accepted.

19:07

It probably stemmed a lot from the fact

19:13

that the person who was the president

19:15

of Missouri Synod

19:17

in the state of Minnesota at that time

19:18

his daughter was our secretary.

19:20

She was part of the women's group.

19:22

She would just tell about the things

19:25

that were on her heart and mind,

19:28

and could never have a conversation

19:30

with her father about that.

19:33

That just seemed so

19:38

both sad,

19:41

and, you know, angry

19:43

strong feelings about

19:46

not being able to do those things.

19:51

Within that campus ministry setting

19:53

we tried, we pushed a whole lot

19:55

of boundaries, and did a whole of things

19:58

that wouldn't have floated

20:01

anybody else's boat in Missouri Synod,

20:03

but, I think, it helped

20:05

women feel better about their role,

20:08

but never changed anything.

20:11

Roger and I had ...

20:16

He's the Missouri Synod pastor

20:18

he's now dead,

20:19

had several conversations about

20:21

will the church ever change

20:25

if there just is this

20:28

under the table stuff that's going on.

20:31

I mean how long

20:34

can that go on before

20:36

will it really make a difference,

20:38

and he believed it would.

20:40

I did not believe it would.

20:43

I felt like we were doing

20:46

a little bit of bait-and-switch,

20:48

you know, trying to do this cool thing,

20:51

and then people would graduate,

20:53

or leave and go back to another

20:55

Missouri Synod Parish where everything

20:58

wasn't okay and take 10 steps backwards.

21:00

You know the Missouri Synod

21:04

marriage ceremony still sets that

21:06

much like the Roman Catholic,

21:11

which they would

21:13

screen if I said that

21:15

that you have children.

21:19

The first wedding that I was part of

21:24

I remember looking at that

21:27

reading it over.

21:30

I had done lots of liturgical stuff

21:31

but never

21:33

looked at the wedding service seriously.

21:35

I have two stories.

21:42

One of the chairs of our

21:44

Campus Ministry Committee

21:45

was a really fun, funny man

21:45

who would keep us in stitches

21:48

at a meeting.

21:51

I was living in an apartment building,

21:52

and the people upstairs

21:54

the grandma died,

21:56

and I went to the funeral.

21:58

Here was Fred presiding at the funeral.

22:00

I was really surprised.

22:03

I tell you hellfire, brimstone,

22:04

stern, judgmental.

22:07

I was just ...

22:10

-

Yes.

22:13

-

I think there's a lot of mixture of

22:14

getting to know people as people,

22:19

drinking beer with them,

22:21

and then seeing them in the context of

22:22

a liturgical setting,

22:26

or a place where they were

22:27

held more accountable somewhere else,

22:29

and then seeing the duplicity

22:32

just thinking what in the hell?

22:34

What was this all about?

22:36

Then I could question it because

22:38

I was still part of, you know,

22:40

a more progressive Lutheran church

22:42

that allowed some protection.

22:44

Then, eventually, the leadership

22:47

in the Missouri Synod changed.

22:48

We left that building and moved in

22:51

with Episcopalians.

22:54

-

Did you grow up LCA was that your?

22:57

-

I grew up Augustana.

23:00

-

Augustana, okay, yeah, got it.

23:02

This is really interesting.

23:05

To move to Reimagining,

23:07

and this is great background for this

23:09

what was your relationship

23:10

to the Reimagining community?

23:12

-

I registered

23:14

for the first conference

23:16

reluctantly.

23:20

-

Why reluctantly?

23:22

-

I didn't know

23:24

what purpose it would serve.

23:25

-

So why did you register?

23:27

-

Probably someone told me

23:29

that I should.

23:31

There was a lot of buzz.

23:33

I registered, and then

23:36

the timeline

23:40

was that I was at our National

23:42

Campus Ministry Conference in Chicago.

23:46

Gwen King

23:50

who was a Campus pastor

23:53

out East somewhere,

23:55

I don't remember where,

23:56

who I thought was so cool

24:02

whose a woman of color told me

24:03

that she was on the waiting list.

24:05

During our conference she got called,

24:08

and said there was a space for her,

24:10

and she said that she wanted to come,

24:12

but there was no hotel space.

24:15

I said, well, you can come,

24:17

and stay with me,

24:18

so then I was committed to go.

24:20

Frankly, I don't think when I got back

24:23

from Chicago from that conference

24:26

I don't think I would have gone.

24:28

I think I would have opted out.

24:30

-

Really?

24:31

-

But because Gwen was there,

24:32

and I knew Barbara was gonna be there.

24:34

-

Yes, Barbara Lundblad.

24:35

-

Uh-hmm.

24:36

-

What was the experience

24:40

then for you at the conference?

24:41

-

It was certainly important.

24:50

I think some of the most important

24:53

things had to do with hearing people

24:54

from other countries.

24:56

It seems like it was

25:06

such a long time ago,

25:07

and like it was absolutely

25:09

ages ago and just in terms

25:12

of some of the change.

25:13

I just remember when all the

25:15

women

25:21

who identified as other gendered

25:24

got up together,

25:29

and Barbara and I were sitting

25:30

at the same table at the time,

25:31

and the dilemma in her

25:32

about whether she was

25:34

gonna walk up there or not.

25:36

We talked about it the night before.

25:38

-

Did she decide to get up or not?

25:43

-

She did not.

25:46

I told her that if you go

25:49

I'll go with you.

25:51

I think a lot

25:56

of the table conversations,

25:58

just meeting people from

26:01

lots of different places was

26:04

important to me.

26:07

I was really frustrated at how few

26:09

Lutherans were there and involved.

26:11

Two or three of the people

26:17

from here from Minnesota were,

26:18

I think,

26:22

always kind of looking over

26:24

their shoulder at who else was there

26:25

who was seeing that they were there.

26:27

-

Anxious about being seen?

26:30

-

Yeah, it was disappointing to me.

26:33

We had a hard time trying

26:35

to figure out how to caucus.

26:36

-

During the conference?

26:39

-

During the conference,

26:41

and then as well afterwards,

26:42

you know, as Lutherans.

26:44

It was kind of like

26:46

that was a good experience but.

26:47

-

Why was it hard?

26:50

-

Here's another piece because

26:53

in Campus Ministry at that time

26:54

I had been doing a women's group

26:57

that included seminary students,

26:59

and women who were in congregations.

27:01

That period of time I was the person

27:03

who really knew every woman

27:06

who was in ministry.

27:09

I made it a point

27:10

of

27:12

getting to know,

27:15

and many people would say

27:15

if you're gonna go to Luther Seminary

27:17

you need to talk to Jerie,

27:18

so Campus Ministry and now we're with,

27:21

or (mumbles) with Episcopalians

27:24

kind of became the go-to place in a way

27:27

for women who wanted

27:31

to identify as feminists.

27:32

We would talk a lot in that group

27:38

about, you know, this is how

27:41

it's gonna be when folks get out there,

27:44

and then it would all fall apart.

27:47

-

Once they got in the church.

27:50

-

Several of those women

27:51

were at the conference,

27:53

and even kind of being reminded,

27:54

I think, of what they felt committed to,

27:56

and what was actually possible was

28:00

great disparity,

28:03

and hard to kind of be with each other,

28:06

and own that.

28:09

-

Right.

28:10

-

I continued that group

28:13

until

28:20

women's ordination happened,

28:22

and it was maybe five,

28:24

or 10 years after that.

28:26

We had a retreat.

28:29

They asked me to do a retreat for them.

28:31

The Synod actually asked me

28:33

to do a retreat

28:34

while he had the retreat center.

28:35

-

Yes.

28:37

-

15, 18

28:40

women together

28:42

in the living room the first night.

28:44

I started with whatever

28:46

we'd agreed upon that night,

28:49

prepared and went to nowhere.

28:51

One of the women

28:57

who since has left, Perry Schienbien,

29:01

long-term chaplain,

29:03

hospital chaplain said,

29:05

maybe it would help us if we

29:08

all went around,

29:11

and talked about what it is

29:13

that we pretend,

29:14

and

29:17

people did.

29:19

One major thing was I have to

29:25

pretend that I understand

29:28

what it is to be

29:30

a rule-breaker,

29:35

first person doing this,

29:38

and that I know what it is

29:40

to be a feminist.

29:42

It was a real general

29:44

understanding of needing

29:46

to step out,

29:48

and be on the edge of something

29:50

that no one had really asked to be,

29:51

or didn't really want to do

29:54

just wanted to study theology,

29:56

and be a pastor.

29:58

-

Right, they were put into that role

29:59

of rule-breaker.

30:01

-

Yeah, and then some people talked

30:03

about the lack of continuity,

30:05

and what it is that they experienced

30:08

in their hearts,

30:10

and what they've been taught,

30:13

and how it was that they came

30:16

into a parish to be a pastor

30:18

kind of in terms

30:22

of what the church expected

30:23

did not have

30:26

continuity with what it is

30:28

that they were feeling.

30:30

Then that made them start to question

30:32

both theology as well as scripture.

30:35

That conversation went on

30:40

into the night.

30:42

As we finished one of the women got up

30:46

went into the bathroom,

30:49

threw up, put her coat on,

30:50

picked up her suitcase,

30:52

and would not talk to any of us.

30:54

-

Wow.

30:57

-

Within a year, year and a half

31:00

she was no longer in the parish,

31:02

but she was really, really angry

31:06

at us for questioning

31:08

the church, the bible.

31:11

-

So with all of that work

31:16

that you were doing

31:17

when you went to

31:19

that Reimagining Conference

31:20

you heard the theology that was spoken,

31:22

and you just (mumbles) the ritual

31:24

did this feel new to you?

31:26

How did you react to it?

31:28

-

I don't think that it felt new

31:31

to me as much as it felt more real.

31:34

I remember the African women

31:42

talking such ...

31:45

-

Like the mercy of dooye.

31:48

-

It could have been.

31:50

-

Yeah, okay, whatever, okay, good.

31:51

-

I remember her talking about

31:54

how she wasn't always sure

31:56

who her mother was,

31:58

and that it takes a community

32:01

to raise a child.

32:02

-

Yes.

32:04

-

I just remember mulling that

32:05

over and over and over in my mind.

32:06

I think in part

32:09

my folks, you know,

32:11

did the great American Dream.

32:13

Built a little house

32:16

with a white picket fence,

32:17

and then you have to

32:19

take care of yourselves,

32:19

and you have to be your only resource,

32:20

and you don't ever tell anybody else

32:23

that you might wonder about something,

32:24

or not know how to do everything.

32:27

Just somehow, you know, thinking about

32:30

what it would have been like

32:32

to grow up where there were

32:33

many different people

32:35

to see what life was like

32:37

instead of being forced and reinforced,

32:40

you know, by, okay,

32:42

you went to Cathy Butel's,

32:44

and you ate peanut butter

32:46

for the first time.

32:47

Peanut butter is good.

32:49

That's only one experience.

32:52

I have some cough drops.

32:55

-

Oh, thanks, I think I'm okay,

32:56

but thank you.

32:57

I'll let you know.

32:59

I apologize for the coughing.

33:00

Let's talk about the backlash

33:04

for a minute.

33:06

Were you affected by it

33:07

at all personally?

33:09

-

I would not say that I was affected

33:11

by it personally because Campus Ministry

33:14

was kind of the bastion of

33:17

you can be weird.

33:19

There was always this back and forth

33:23

between Campus Ministry,

33:25

and the real church.

33:27

The real church kind of wanted

33:28

us to be that bastion,

33:30

so that they could kind of refer,

33:32

and encourage people

33:36

to have another alternative,

33:37

but not too much.

33:39

Then we had to kowtow to the church

33:41

in some way and kind of show.

33:44

I think that's why

33:45

Campus Ministry has this

33:47

town/gown

33:49

kind of who are we supposed to be,

33:53

and we justify our behavior.

33:56

Kim's ministry justifies this behavior

33:58

by being liturgical

34:00

when I think it would be

34:02

far more effective if it focused on

34:03

what it means to be

34:05

part of higher education

34:07

in a university setting,

34:09

and actually being part of the dialogue

34:10

of what's going on in the world.

34:13

-

Yes.

34:15

-

Let the congregations

34:16

do the liturgical stuff,

34:18

but we had to do that in order to show

34:19

that we were legitimate.

34:21

-

Interesting, yeah.

34:22

So kind of responsible

34:24

with two different constituencies, yeah.

34:26

How do you account for the backlash,

34:30

and how did you respond to it?

34:32

-

When I started to hear about folks

34:35

losing their jobs, you know, it was

34:38

sad because some of those folks

34:43

had become people instead of just names.

34:46

It was hard for me to understand

34:51

that anything that happened

34:55

in that conference was enough for

34:56

someone to lose their job.

34:58

I mean, this is not

35:00

the big deal that it's a big deal,

35:03

but it's not a big deal

35:06

it's like tangible

35:07

real life stuff.

35:09

Then I was really angry.

35:13

When it's not your own denomination

35:17

you don't have the same power,

35:19

and nobody who I know was

35:21

Lutheran, you know, lost their job,

35:24

but I'm not sure

35:31

that many of the women who were Lutheran

35:34

maybe even told their congregation,

35:37

or their Bishop,

35:39

or anybody that they were there.

35:41

-

Yes, yeah.

35:44

So you said you were angry.

35:46

Were you part of the forming

35:47

of the community?

35:49

-

No.

35:53

How did I end up?

35:56

It was Nadine.

35:58

-

Nadine.

35:59

-

It was Nadine who pulled me into.

36:00

I really don't remember exactly how,

36:07

but there was an opening in the Board,

36:09

and they wanted a Lutheran.

36:12

Nadine was in Campus Ministry at that time.

36:15

-

Oh, right.

36:19

-

Yeah, UBC.

36:19

She said, would you consider doing this?

36:22

I was sort of interested,

36:26

but not really.

36:29

-

So why did you do it?

36:31

-

I went to one of the meetings,

36:34

and Sarah was there, too.

36:37

I knew Sarah from (mumbles)

36:39

-

Sarah Evans, yeah.

36:40

-

I think it was just

36:45

getting to know people better

36:46

who had been kind of distant,

36:50

and people being really welcoming.

36:53

-

Well, you ended up

36:57

getting really involved.

36:58

-

Yeah, well, Pam reunited us.

37:00

We still have breakfast once a month.

37:03

-

Oh, I love it, do you still?

37:06

-

Uh-hmm.

37:08

-

That's wonderful.

37:09

-

Yeah, Pam and (mumbles) Perkins

37:10

we were always the Perkins.

37:12

-

You were tri-chairs

37:17

for how many was it three?

37:18

-

Three.

37:20

-

Three of them, yeah,

37:21

tell me about that process.

37:22

What was that like?

37:24

-

Well, again, I'm strategic,

37:27

and I'm a connector.

37:30

I kind of am input,

37:32

gathering information.

37:34

I kind of appeal to

37:35

the things that I like to do.

37:37

I frankly do not like to be on a board

37:40

for the sake of just being there.

37:43

I'm much more happy

37:46

if I can actually make something happen.

37:47

-

Yes.

37:50

-

So doing the nuts and bolts

37:51

of the conferences.

37:53

I had done a lot of conferences before

37:55

I'd been made the chair of the ...

37:59

It's been so long (mumbles)

38:04

Minnesota Synod Conventions

38:07

both pre and post

38:09

ELCA.

38:12

There were

38:14

7,000 people when we were merged.

38:16

-

Yes.

38:19

-

I knew

38:22

the dynamics of how we had to do that,

38:23

and that's kind of the piece

38:26

that I brought.

38:27

Pam brought the artsy-fartsy

38:29

background, and Randy

38:33

brought the connections

38:35

to some of the places that we needed.

38:37

Then there were so many people

38:39

were part of Reimagining at that time

38:41

who kind of knew

38:43

speakers, and were eager to work on

38:45

the rituals and things.

38:48

It was not hard.

38:49

It was just not hard,

38:51

and it seemed to me after one year,

38:52

one round of doing it

38:54

it was easier to do that

38:55

then it was to sit on the board,

38:57

or do any of the other tasks

38:59

that were needed and necessary.

39:01

-

Yes, now I'm curious.

39:03

Did you know Pam and Randy

39:04

before you became tri-chairs?

39:06

How did that happen?

39:07

-

Randy was a year ahead

39:09

of me at Gustavus.

39:11

-

Oh, I didn't know that.

39:12

-

So we've known each other

39:13

for a really long time,

39:15

and we were part of whatever

39:17

the Lutheran student thing was

39:20

at Gustavus, I don't even remember.

39:22

I had a big crush on him,

39:25

but Joy won.

39:28

-

Did she, yeah.

39:29

I'm gonna be interviewing him later.

39:31

Does he know this?

39:33

-

Yes.

39:35

-

Okay, good.

39:35

Because it's now public anyway.

39:36

-

Then he went off

39:39

from Gustavus he went off to seminary,

39:41

and then he was overseas for a while,

39:44

and he came back to the Minnesota Synod.

39:47

We were at a Synod convention

39:51

a bunch of people.

39:52

The skeptics and the cynics

39:55

always stand in the back

39:56

at church meetings, you know,

39:58

I was standing back there.

40:00

I kept looking at this guy,

40:03

and trying to figure out

40:05

who in the heck is that

40:06

because in college

40:09

he was just a string bean.

40:10

I don't think he had

40:12

an extra ounce on him.

40:12

He never had a beard in college.

40:14

Here is this man who had

40:17

lost quite a bit of hair, full beard,

40:19

little bit of a pot, who is that?

40:20

Finally I just walked over, and said, Hi.

40:24

He said, do you remember who I am?

40:28

I said, sort of.

40:30

The Campus Ministry,

40:36

and seminary faculty and staff

40:37

who are at things that are often

40:40

kind of crouched in the same

40:43

stand in the back of the room.

40:45

We reconnected then.

40:47

-

Were you on

40:49

a coordinating council together

40:50

is that how you ended up as tri-chairs?

40:51

-

Yeah, I think so.

40:54

I think we were on.

40:55

Either that or Randy had just gone off,

40:59

and I came on.

41:02

-

Okay, right.

41:03

-

But wanted to.

41:05

I think he really saw the importance

41:07

of somebody from Luther Seminary,

41:09

and was kind of also looking for

41:11

a community of people

41:14

to support some of his own thoughts,

41:15

and feelings rather than the status quo

41:18

that was happening at Luther.

41:20

-

You had experience you mentioned

41:24

planning conferences.

41:25

Was planning these gatherings different?

41:28

Was there a way that feminist theology

41:31

affected the process,

41:33

or the structure or anything?

41:35

-

I think we would kind of start out

41:36

with some kind of ways,

41:38

in which, you know, a focus group,

41:40

or let's bring some people together,

41:42

and that would get down

41:46

to the nitty gritty of, you know,

41:48

there are deadlines, and heads in beds

41:50

that stuff has to be in order.

41:55

Some of the ritual planning,

42:00

and those things kind of had

42:02

a life of their own,

42:04

and people who liked doing that,

42:05

and wanted to make that happen.

42:08

I think we were all good at

42:10

finding ways to create,

42:13

or connect that energy,

42:16

and then letting go,

42:18

but Dan didn't have to have

42:21

supreme control over everything.

42:23

Pam was a little more control oriented.

42:25

-

So there were different groups

42:30

that were planning like the rituals,

42:30

and everything, and you just sort of

42:32

orchestrated the whole process.

42:33

Okay, that makes sense.

42:36

What challenges were faced

42:41

by the community during the 10 years

42:43

that it was formed

42:45

at least your involvement,

42:46

and how were they addressed?

42:47

-

The overall challenge was

42:48

are we or are we not?

42:50

Should we be an organization,

42:52

an institution should we not?

42:55

-

It's very existence, yeah.

42:58

-

And by its very existence

43:00

where we becoming an institution.

43:02

That was

43:06

voiced over and over and over again

43:10

by the groups that came

43:13

to use the center for spiritual growth.

43:15

Folks often who were coming together

43:18

because they wanted something

43:20

different than they had come from,

43:23

and they maybe would come,

43:25

and use our space because

43:27

it was a good space to think.

43:28

-

Yes.

43:30

-

Some of them over periods of time

43:32

would do not just a one time event,

43:34

but would maybe annually,

43:37

or semi-annually come and struggle with

43:39

who they wanted to be.

43:42

-

What kind of groups

43:44

were these other groups?

43:45

-

People who would self-identify

43:47

as a spirituality group,

43:49

and maybe they were

43:51

part of a congregation.

43:53

You have some relationship to one

43:55

of the congregations that used to come

43:57

it seems to me I remember.

43:59

-

There was a small group

44:02

that I was part of.

44:03

Is that what you mean, I'm sorry, no?

44:05

-

No, it was a Methodist congregation.

44:07

-

Yeah, my husband

44:10

is a Methodist pastor.

44:11

-

Yeah.

44:12

-

Yeah, Silver Lake it might have been.

44:13

I'm just trying to remember, yeah.

44:16

I know I came individually.

44:19

-

It's fuzzy.

44:21

-

I know, me too.

44:22

-

You know, you come,

44:23

and you're in a different setting,

44:24

and you start to think, well,

44:25

you know, we want to

44:26

break out of and do,

44:28

but pretty soon

44:30

it starts to look very similar.

44:32

-

Okay.

44:36

-

Because that's the structure

44:37

that we've been taught.

44:40

-

Yes.

44:42

-

And we don't realize how well

44:43

we've been taught it.

44:45

-

Yes.

44:46

-

It is really hard to figure out

44:48

how to take responsibility for

44:50

creating something new.

44:55

I think Reimagining

44:59

was always in

45:02

a dilemma, you know, we start

45:04

putting together all this structure

45:07

then is it really Reimagining,

45:09

but how do you do the work

45:13

that might be necessary?

45:15

Maybe that's one of the reasons,

45:18

too, that during the conferences

45:20

it seemed to me that the energy

45:22

in some of the conferences

45:24

in bringing people together

45:26

who were doing interesting creative work

45:27

was maybe at least for me

45:31

one of the best parts

45:33

of what Reimagining did, and then

45:35

to

45:38

fuss in the meantime about what to be,

45:40

or how to organize

45:43

less important.

45:46

I don't know.

45:48

I know twice we did

45:50

a retreat with Lutheran women

45:53

just for the purpose of talking about

45:56

what it would be like to be

45:59

another kind of spiritual community,

46:01

and then create a ritual

46:04

that we would end with, end the ritual

46:05

was so amazing to me.

46:09

I would just kind of stand back

46:11

from that and say, all right

46:12

there was an invocation,

46:14

there was, you know, the words.

46:16

It was just exactly the structure.

46:19

Where I did see some people

46:22

who came from different backgrounds

46:25

would come together where

46:28

some different way

46:33

of doing things might emerge.

46:35

-

Where they from more

46:37

liturgical backgrounds?

46:38

-

Are you talking about

46:40

the Lutheran women?

46:41

-

The women from different backgrounds

46:42

who did something different

46:44

and didn't follow the same?

46:45

-

No, they may not be from any.

46:46

-

May not from any, okay, yeah.

46:47

-

Or long since left, whatever,

46:49

but, sometimes,

46:53

that emphasis of trying to figure out

46:55

how to be more creative

46:57

than you've ever been before,

46:59

you know, is not

47:01

probably

47:06

not as helpful as,

47:07

and I'm not sure exactly what it is

47:10

because I really have walked away

47:12

from all of that.

47:14

-

Say some more about it's not

47:16

trying to be creative

47:18

than you've ever been before

47:19

is not as helpful

47:20

what were you thinking?

47:21

-

Where I think all the energy goes into

47:22

what it really is that you're trying

47:26

to create, you know, rather than

47:27

some self-analysis about

47:32

what's really going on,

47:34

and what's really needed or necessary.

47:35

When I was doing that sabbatical with

47:38

students,

47:45

I was also doing a piece

47:47

for the National Church on singleness,

47:50

and that was, you know,

47:53

kind of dovetailed in a way,

47:55

but I used to often talk with groups

47:57

of young adults about, you know,

47:59

two-thirds of the world is starving,

48:03

and most of us

48:05

are sitting on our fingers

48:06

waiting for Prince or Princess Charming.

48:08

Then we wonder why the world

48:13

is still how it is.

48:14

Sometimes,

48:18

trying to continue to create

48:20

can really be counterproductive,

48:23

I think, to be change in the world.

48:24

-

That's helpful.

48:30

What aspects of Reimagining

48:32

were most significant to you and why?

48:34

-

Well, it's the same for me

48:39

wherever I am it's the relationships.

48:40

Building relationships with people.

48:43

Learning from their experience.

48:44

Having the freedom to share

48:46

my own experience.

48:48

There are people

48:57

who will disagree with me

48:58

because I will react and say

48:59

I'm not an intellect,

49:01

but I am not as

49:05

excited about

49:08

playing with issues in my head

49:11

as much as I am trying to find,

49:13

or figure out where does that come from,

49:16

or why is that important

49:19

to the person who is saying it?

49:21

I think Reimagining in the conferences

49:24

did a nice job of creating

49:26

an atmosphere where people

49:28

could be who they were.

49:30

I don't think we were very stuffy.

49:34

I remember Mary Branowski

49:40

doing her doctoral thesis presentation.

49:44

I don't know if you heard it or not,

49:51

but the end was a whole

49:53

list of I wonders,

49:54

and just coming to the point of saying,

49:57

you know, I was supposed to come to

49:58

some kind of conclusion about this.

49:59

That's what a doctoral thesis

50:02

is supposed to be about,

50:04

but I'm still curious and wondering.

50:06

That's super helpful for me.

50:12

That's one of the pieces of my life

50:13

I've never forgotten.

50:15

-

Why is that?

50:17

-

Well, it's someone who has

50:18

put all this work, all this time,

50:19

all this energy, money

50:21

into

50:23

trying to prove to a group of people

50:27

that you are good enough

50:29

to have the title of Doctor

50:32

who can stand in front

50:36

of the same people, and say,

50:38

you know, I didn't quite get there.

50:39

-

Yeah.

50:43

-

Just didn't quite get there.

50:44

Didn't get all the questions answered,

50:47

in fact, there are more now

50:48

to be able to do that

50:53

in the academic community.

50:55

-

How or did your involvement

51:05

in Reimagining change your perspective

51:06

on feminist theology and/or the church?

51:09

-

Yeppers, well, I've had enough

51:14

of what was already Reimagining there.

51:16

Someone a long time ago asked me

51:21

about what I thought

51:24

was the seminal experience in my life

51:26

that

51:29

projected me into

51:31

social gospel, I think, was his point.

51:34

He was talking about social gospel,

51:37

and we were on a long car ride.

51:39

-

This sounds like a conversation

51:43

for a long car ride.

51:44

-

This is Vince Hawkinson from

51:46

Grace University Church.

51:47

I'm a pretty extemporaneous thinker,

51:52

or

51:55

verbalizer and what popped into my head

51:56

was a story I hadn't really even

52:00

thought about forever I don't think.

52:02

I was probably not quite four years old,

52:08

or just four years old,

52:10

got up one morning.

52:13

Our house was on my

52:15

great uncle's truck farm.

52:16

There were cabbages in the back of us,

52:18

and strawberries out here.

52:19

I went to the window,

52:22

and there were people

52:23

picking strawberries,

52:25

and the people picking strawberries

52:27

had children and I ran to my mom,

52:29

and said that I wanted to get dressed,

52:31

and I wanted to get out and play,

52:33

and she said over my dead body.

52:34

I knew she was wrong.

52:38

For a long time there was a motto

52:46

on a bumper sticker Question Authority.

52:48

One of the women's groups at

52:52

Union Lu gave me that T-shirt,

52:56

and I had a bumper sticker

52:58

on my car for a long time.

53:00

I think that's always

53:02

been a core for me.

53:03

so then I've also been accused

53:06

of the fact that I have 30 pounds,

53:08

and I probably do.

53:10

I think, basically, there's a whole

53:14

lot of stuff I've acted

53:17

as though I believe,

53:19

but I have never believed.

53:20

-

Will you say some more about that?

53:22

-

Well, I don't believe in God,

53:24

and I don't think I ever have,

53:28

but I

53:31

acted as though I did.

53:35

The question at the retreat

53:39

about what do you pretend?

53:41

-

Yes.

53:43

-

What was her name?

53:49

A lay woman in the Lutheran Church

53:52

she was at Reimagining

53:54

presented at Reimagining

53:55

had an aneurysm

53:57

has not functioned for a long time

54:00

Elizabeth (mumbles)

54:02

-

Oh yes, okay.

54:04

-

Elizabeth said to a group of us

54:06

gathered at that first Reimagining

54:07

Lutheran standing in a room

54:09

that many of us were doing

54:11

what we were doing because

54:13

there were no other options

54:16

for us to do this kind of work.

54:18

It was a period of time

54:22

in human history.

54:23

I look back at my own education,

54:25

and if I had known

54:27

that I could have been

54:28

dean of students,

54:32

or vice-provost for

54:34

equity and diversity.

54:37

There's so many things that exist now,

54:39

but the church allowed me

54:44

to do this programming,

54:46

and hang out with kids,

54:48

and do all this stuff

54:49

that didn't seem to me

54:53

would be very fun to do

54:55

if I were teaching.

54:57

-

Yes.

54:58

-

That was the only other option.

54:58

-

Do you think you were aware

55:01

the whole time

55:03

that you didn't believe in God,

55:05

or did this realization come later?

55:07

How did that?

55:09

-

No, I think I've known it all.

55:10

I think I have put myself

55:12

through paces to try to

55:14

put myself somewhere

55:17

where something would happen so that

55:20

it would become clear to me.

55:24

Something tangible would happen,

55:28

so that I could believe.

55:30

I was raised in the Augustana Church,

55:32

and we did things like every youth

55:34

event there was a consecration service,

55:36

and there was

55:38

much more touchy-feely,

55:40

but when all that

55:43

emotional stuff was kind of programmed

55:45

to make things happen

55:49

it never happened to me.

55:50

I was always the one sitting there going

55:52

what is wrong with me?

55:53

It was always more

55:58

a realization of something

56:02

that was important to me

56:05

almost always happened

56:08

in a conversation with somebody else, or

56:09

a small group or something.

56:13

-

Was this stressful?

56:15

Was it difficult to maintain that,

56:17

or were you able

56:19

to pretty much navigate that?

56:19

-

I think the last 10 years

56:23

of Campus Ministry was the hardest.

56:25

I'm figuring out that it wasn't

56:30

so much about me it was about

56:33

what am I as an image of

56:37

the church

56:42

how am I being perceived,

56:44

and what is it that I'm perpetuating,

56:46

and then it was something

56:48

I don't believe in.

56:49

The personal message

56:52

that kept coming through to me

56:54

over and over and over again

56:55

is for some period of time in my life

56:57

I want to be known as Jerie.

57:00

I want people to talk to me

57:04

wanting to know who Jerie is,

57:08

or what Jerie's opinion is,

57:10

not, oh, you are Jerie comma,

57:12

Campus Minister.

57:15

There just comes a time when

57:18

you are part of that where people

57:20

cannot get rid of that

57:24

just cannot get rid of it,

57:27

and you can't say anything right.

57:28

Either you're too Left, or too Right.

57:30

-

Given that how did it feel to be

57:35

part of Reimagining,

57:37

and plan these gatherings?

57:39

-

That's an interesting question

57:45

because I think Reimagining drew me into

57:46

what I thought might be a new answer.

57:50

-

Say some more about that.

57:53

-

That somehow this would make

57:55

more sense to me than anything else,

57:56

and it would reframe the church,

57:58

it would reframe theology,

58:01

liturgy, and it would be believable.

58:03

-

Yes.

58:06

-

It's nice, it was really nice

58:08

like there are a lot of things

58:10

that I appreciated, but

58:12

it's still

58:15

outside of me.

58:18

When I started to be able

58:22

to be on campus more I mean,

58:23

the focus of my ministry

58:25

was much more on campus.

58:27

My colleagues were much more disturbed,

58:31

and Interfaith I was

58:34

for the last 10 years

58:37

I was pretty much the chair,

58:38

and the driver of our Interfaith group,

58:40

and my colleagues were really at Hello.

58:44

They weren't my Lutheran colleagues,

58:46

but I started to meet many people

58:50

on campus and get to know them more,

58:52

and get to know the fact that for them

58:55

it's kind of institutional grounding,

59:00

and something that they believed was

59:02

either something they'd left

59:04

a long time ago,

59:05

or never had been part of their lives.

59:06

My being campus minister

59:12

being there doing things

59:15

put me in a different light with them,

59:17

and either people wanted to talk to me,

59:20

or didn't want to talk to me.

59:21

It's just been an interesting thing

59:27

to come back to be included

59:29

as a staff member at the university.

59:31

Some people still remember me,

59:35

the pastor want me to come to something

59:37

because of my past, but

59:40

it just feels so much more

59:46

authentic to me.

59:48

-

Yes, yes.

59:49

-

Just so much more authentic.

59:50

-

Yeah.

59:52

-

I don't know if the Interfaith thing,

59:53

or if

59:57

there's a reframing

59:59

where we could be

1:00:02

different as a religious,

1:00:06

or spiritual entity,

1:00:08

but the older I get the more I doubt it.

1:00:09

I've been part of a core group

1:00:13

of people who helped to plan a course

1:00:14

that's being offered now

1:00:16

by the Center for Spirituality.

1:00:18

It's the first course ever offered to

1:00:21

undergrad students

1:00:25

at the University of Minnesota.

1:00:26

I've been racking my brains this morning

1:00:28

to try to remember

1:00:30

what the title of it is, and I can't.

1:00:31

My part of the planning for this thing

1:00:36

was to try to hold out

1:00:38

for the fact that we would

1:00:41

not use the word religion,

1:00:43

we would not use the word spiritual

1:00:44

unless someone, a student who uses that,

1:00:47

or brings it up,

1:00:50

but we would focus on talking

1:00:52

about meaning and purpose,

1:00:53

what motivates your life,

1:00:55

where do you find meaning,

1:00:57

where do you find purpose, so that

1:00:58

the students who are taking this

1:01:01

don't have to come from

1:01:05

a point of view of justifying

1:01:06

their own past or existence,

1:01:10

but maybe can include as they're

1:01:13

looking at this all the new things

1:01:16

that they're seeing by being

1:01:18

in a college campus that may,

1:01:20

or may not be more diverse

1:01:23

than where they came from.

1:01:24

The state of Minnesota

1:01:27

as well as the University of Minnesota

1:01:29

is not doing a very good job

1:01:31

of dealing with diversity,

1:01:33

so I kind of feel that

1:01:38

I have so much to gain

1:01:41

from every single conversation

1:01:42

I have with someone

1:01:45

who doesn't look like me,

1:01:46

who doesn't act like me,

1:01:48

who doesn't have the same background.

1:01:49

That's where I found

1:01:53

that freedom to do that.

1:01:54

The church for me, frankly,

1:01:55

was continuing to be this

1:01:57

kind of bastion of people who wanted

1:02:00

to come together to be reinforced in

1:02:02

like-mindedness,

1:02:05

or whatever the focus is

1:02:08

whether you want women's ordination,

1:02:10

or whether you want

1:02:13

gay and Lesbian people to be ordained,

1:02:14

or whether you want them to be married.

1:02:16

It still is a like-mindedness.

1:02:19

I coined this a long time ago.

1:02:22

I used to talk about blind

1:02:25

to the Lutheran church of the buts,

1:02:27

you know, we love everybody but.

1:02:29

-

Oh, yes.

1:02:31

-

You say that publicly anyplace,

1:02:32

and people smile and say

1:02:34

yes because they know it.

1:02:37

I think

1:02:41

we need to

1:02:43

go on to the

1:02:45

world of the what-ifs.

1:02:47

There's a third way, or a fourth,

1:02:50

or a fifth, or a sixth.

1:02:52

-

Is that what you would say, well,

1:02:56

I'll bring Reimagining

1:02:59

into the conversation.

1:03:00

Is that what Reimagining means

1:03:01

to use that term?

1:03:02

What is your vision for the future?

1:03:03

What does the future look like?

1:03:04

How do we go ahead?

1:03:07

-

Well, I think, John and I

1:03:08

created the Center for Spiritual Growth

1:03:10

for that very purpose.

1:03:12

It didn't go so well,

1:03:14

and part of that was economics.

1:03:17

Some writers have said that we're

1:03:25

in the in between time,

1:03:26

you know, where the past

1:03:29

doesn't make sense anymore.

1:03:31

The future in some ways

1:03:35

offers so many opportunities

1:03:37

that it's really hard to figure out

1:03:39

how to move there.

1:03:41

I guess if I were gonna preach

1:03:47

about this now I think I would

1:03:49

just tell people to relax.

1:03:51

I wrote a paper once on community

1:03:57

being something

1:04:01

that would believe

1:04:02

is about

1:04:04

utopia, euphoria

1:04:07

something that we're

1:04:08

trying to make happen

1:04:10

while we're not very willing to

1:04:12

be in the present moment

1:04:14

with what is happening.

1:04:16

I think present moment

1:04:23

is a really important thing

1:04:27

in paying attention

1:04:30

to what's going on now,

1:04:32

and what do I have to learn from

1:04:33

my neighbors over here who are Chinese.

1:04:35

Just have

1:04:42

no capacity to understand why

1:04:44

I have a Buddha in my garden.

1:04:46

You know what's that all about,

1:04:51

and some kind of understanding

1:04:57

of the fact that for many people

1:04:59

there is nothing that makes any sense

1:05:01

to them at all except the fact

1:05:03

that last night

1:05:05

they were sexually assaulted.

1:05:06

Maybe my experience has been

1:05:13

at the youth to be called in,

1:05:16

in situations where a person

1:05:17

in counseling in some agency on campuses

1:05:20

wanted to talk about

1:05:23

where is God in all this,

1:05:27

but that's rare,

1:05:29

and it's way afterthought.

1:05:32

It has very little to do

1:05:37

with the present moment.

1:05:38

I

1:05:42

don't know of

1:05:44

I've been there nine years now of

1:05:46

a hospital exam,

1:05:49

a SARS exam that's happened,

1:05:50

which, sometimes, can take hours

1:05:52

where a chaplain at the hospital

1:05:54

has ever walked in the room.

1:05:57

-

Really?

1:05:58

Why do you think that is?

1:06:00

-

I don't know if they even think

1:06:04

that that's important.

1:06:07

-

Yeah.

1:06:08

-

Sometimes, often erring

1:06:15

on the critical, you know,

1:06:17

the cup is half full rather than,

1:06:19

but somebody has to do that.

1:06:23

-

Well, and if you had to talk

1:06:28

about the legacy of Reimagining

1:06:30

what would you say the legacy is

1:06:32

as we look back at those 10 years?

1:06:34

-

Well, maybe it's just as simple

1:06:37

as the fact that it happened, you know,

1:06:38

there were forces in place,

1:06:41

and women all over the world

1:06:45

who, again, that was the amazing

1:06:49

thing to me, you know.

1:06:52

We so often just get this

1:06:55

feeling that we're the only ones

1:06:57

with people all over the world

1:06:58

who are thinking on the same channels.

1:07:00

It would be probably super interesting

1:07:07

to bring all the very

1:07:10

same people together,

1:07:11

and see what they would say.

1:07:14

-

Oh, interesting, yes.

1:07:15

-

In this time what their story is,

1:07:19

or where

1:07:22

they maybe hear what they're doing.

1:07:24

-

Do you mean the presenters, the people?

1:07:26

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1:07:28

One last major question.

1:07:31

Reimagining is working on a website.

1:07:32

Do you have any ideas about

1:07:35

what should be on it,

1:07:37

who would benefit from it, any ideas?

1:07:38

-

The only thing that comes to my head

1:07:44

is the reason I read the minutes.

1:07:45

-

And that is?

1:07:47

-

See whose there,

1:07:49

what are they doing now,

1:07:50

whose alive.

1:07:53

-

Yes.

1:07:55

-

Because 10 years is 10 years.

1:07:57

-

Yeah.

1:08:00

-

You know, and it's always sad.

1:08:01

I was at Cheryl's funeral

1:08:05

for a memorial service.

1:08:07

Even to see the few people

1:08:10

who were there

1:08:11

they all look a little older.

1:08:13

-

But you still see

1:08:22

Pam and Randy every month?

1:08:22

-

Uh-hmm.

1:08:24

-

That's impressive.

1:08:25

-

Every month and they tolerate me.

1:08:26

-

Why do you say that?

1:08:30

-

I think for most people

1:08:36

who are part of my past

1:08:37

when I was part of the church

1:08:40

the fact that

1:08:42

I'm just not part

1:08:44

of any of that anymore.

1:08:45

One of my friends, Dorcas, used to say

1:08:48

her new mantra was

1:08:51

I don't know and I don't care

1:08:53

about a lot of that stuff

1:08:57

that's kind of my feeling because

1:08:59

there's so much rich stuff

1:09:04

going on and things that need attention

1:09:07

I just don't have the patience anymore.

1:09:11

If we start to talk theology,

1:09:17

you know, I kind of just want to say

1:09:19

could we talk about politics,

1:09:23

or something else.

1:09:24

They tolerate me,

1:09:26

but most of the people

1:09:28

who knew me well in the church

1:09:30

are not in touch at all.

1:09:32

-

Really, yeah, yeah.

1:09:34

-

Not at all.

1:09:36

There are some people

1:09:40

that I may see somewhere,

1:09:41

but I think there was probably

1:09:45

word out there sometime about

1:09:47

that the intern person who came

1:09:52

into Campus Ministry

1:09:54

we worked together for about a year

1:09:56

before I left called me unfaithful.

1:09:58

-

Really.

1:10:00

-

So that the way in which

1:10:01

I was doing ministry the fact

1:10:03

that I was on campus as much I was

1:10:05

didn't really justify it

1:10:09

because I thought

1:10:11

whether 5,000

1:10:13

Lutherans, but they're not

1:10:15

in our worship on Sunday, only about 15,

1:10:17

maybe I should be somewhere

1:10:20

where the rest of them are,

1:10:22

but he called me unfaithful, and

1:10:23

so be it.

1:10:29

-

Does that bother you

1:10:30

that you're not in touch

1:10:30

with those people anymore?

1:10:32

-

I think there's a sadness in me

1:10:36

that the very same people

1:10:40

who preach unconditional love, you know,

1:10:42

somehow I've

1:10:47

stepped over a line,

1:10:49

and then maybe I've heard this

1:10:52

from a lot of people in retirement

1:10:54

that you kind of feel like

1:10:56

you drop into a big hole,

1:10:58

and everybody is so busy in their lives,

1:10:59

and it will probably happen

1:11:01

when I leave the U, too.

1:11:02

There will be a lot of people

1:11:04

I won't be in connection with anymore,

1:11:05

but sitting in a room

1:11:07

at the university

1:11:09

working with a team

1:11:12

of people in a professional

1:11:15

what's deemed a professional setting

1:11:18

is very different than a church.

1:11:20

I tell Katie my boss,

1:11:22

this every once in a while

1:11:24

if something went wrong

1:11:25

with us as a team

1:11:27

we'd close the doors go in a room,

1:11:30

and say we're gonna hash this out until

1:11:32

we figure out what's wrong, or what's

1:11:36

not going well,

1:11:39

no-holds-barred, well, in a university

1:11:42

setting you don't work the same thing

1:11:45

because people go to their supervisors

1:11:47

when something is going on.

1:11:50

You have to figure out

1:11:51

through all the channels

1:11:53

how that needs to happen

1:11:55

that the environment I'm in now

1:11:57

certainly isn't perfect,

1:11:59

but the expectations of people

1:12:01

with whom you had those relationships,

1:12:03

and then suddenly

1:12:06

it's not there anymore.

1:12:08

I know part of it has to do

1:12:11

with the fact that John and I

1:12:12

have lived together for

1:12:14

20 or more years.

1:12:18

If anybody had asked me directly

1:12:20

I would never lied about it,

1:12:24

or denied it,

1:12:26

but I was never able to include him

1:12:28

in anything nor did anyone ever

1:12:33

engage me in conversation about the fact

1:12:35

might there be some good reasons

1:12:37

about why you're doing this.

1:12:38

-

So just to clarify where you said

1:12:43

where was the environment

1:12:44

where you close the door,

1:12:46

and you hash it all out?

1:12:47

-

In the church.

1:12:50

-

In the church, okay.

1:12:51

-

Yeah, we're a team,

1:12:52

and we're committed to this work

1:12:54

with students now.

1:12:55

-

Right.

1:12:56

-

To figure out how to do this,

1:12:57

though a hierarchy existed

1:13:01

it was a pretty soft hierarchy.

1:13:03

-

Jerie, this has been wonderful,

1:13:08

and thought-provoking.

1:13:10

Is there anything we haven't discussed

1:13:11

that you would like to say

1:13:13

that you think is important?

1:13:14

-

I don't, and I think part of

1:13:20

moving away from wherever you've been

1:13:25

no matter what it is

1:13:27

I never mean who or what I am

1:13:29

to be or sound as judgment of

1:13:34

what other people may find important

1:13:37

in their lives

1:13:41

because very similar things

1:13:44

were important to me at one time.

1:13:46

Sometimes, especially, within the church

1:13:50

it seems to me the word

1:13:53

we're most afraid of is evolution.

1:13:54

We kind of play around with

1:13:57

more progressive churches saying,

1:14:00

of course, we're okay with that,

1:14:02

and those weird people over there,

1:14:03

but I think we're really kind of afraid

1:14:06

of moving on

1:14:10

not straight movement,

1:14:15

there is a spiral thing

1:14:18

that talks about human development,

1:14:19

but it's more of a rolling big stone

1:14:22

that, you know, gets an impediment

1:14:26

in it every once in a while,

1:14:28

and maybe that's a thoughtful impediment

1:14:30

where we can stop for a while,

1:14:33

and think about what's happening,

1:14:35

but things are changing,

1:14:36

and what has worked in the past

1:14:38

in every single institution

1:14:42

we're willing to say, you know,

1:14:44

we wouldn't be doing health care

1:14:46

the same way we're doing it,

1:14:48

but pretty much

1:14:50

we kind of step out for a little bit,

1:14:53

but it all reverts again

1:14:55

to what it is that we know,

1:14:57

and reading the Reimagining minutes,

1:15:00

and seeing it recorded in there

1:15:02

that people still think that

1:15:05

language is a problem in the church

1:15:09

just dumbfounds me,

1:15:11

you know, even the news now

1:15:16

pays attention

1:15:22

to how it is that

1:15:24

they talk about women and men together.

1:15:27

It should not be tolerated,

1:15:37

so that's where I would make a judgment,

1:15:40

but

1:15:44

most of the people who even

1:15:49

will say to me at the U,

1:15:51

you know, once I was a Lutheran,

1:15:53

or went to church, or something,

1:15:56

I never understood

1:15:58

much of what was going on there

1:16:00

but the community was important

1:16:01

whether it was in my town or where,

1:16:03

and maybe I'll do that again

1:16:05

because I kind of would like

1:16:07

to find that community.

1:16:08

That's something about

1:16:12

leaving the responsibility

1:16:16

of creating that community

1:16:18

to someone else

1:16:19

where maybe all of us need to face

1:16:21

how it is that

1:16:24

where it is that we have the ability

1:16:26

to either do that,

1:16:28

or we've already have done it,

1:16:29

we don't recognize it.

1:16:30

-

What do you mean

1:16:33

we've already done it,

1:16:34

and we don't recognize it?

1:16:35

-

I think a lot of people make fun

1:16:39

of Christians who go to church

1:16:42

on Easter and Christmas,

1:16:44

but that's when they see

1:16:46

their families, too,

1:16:47

or know their neighbors.

1:16:52

Catholics and talking about parishes

1:16:56

is not such a dumb idea,

1:16:59

but maybe the parish needs to be

1:17:01

in your neighborhood rather than

1:17:03

just the Catholic Center in (mumbles)

1:17:04

I just think that

1:17:09

taking responsibility

1:17:13

for oneself is a big job.

1:17:14

-

Yes.

1:17:16

-

Most of the time we kind of

1:17:19

look for the easy way out

1:17:20

because life continues to be

1:17:22

we continue to make life

1:17:24

as complicated as we possibly can.

1:17:26

Then my next birthday I'll be 72,

1:17:30

and I look back and I think,

1:17:34

and I listen to a lot of conversation

1:17:37

about wellness and balance life balance,

1:17:40

and I think, well,

1:17:44

if I had 72 more years,

1:17:44

I could go back

1:17:46

I would just do everything I could,

1:17:47

and not think about whether this was

1:17:50

too much, or too little

1:17:55

it just all goes so fast.

1:17:57

It just goes so fast.

1:18:00

Every opportunity

1:18:04

is important.

1:18:07

-

I just want to hear a little bit more

1:18:10

about you wouldn't think about

1:18:12

whether this was too much,

1:18:13

or too little what did that mean?

1:18:14

What do you mean by that?

1:18:16

-

With the balance.

1:18:17

I think the balance language

1:18:18

drives me crazy.

1:18:21

Boundaries language drives me crazy.

1:18:22

-

Why is that?

1:18:24

-

It seems to me,

1:18:26

and I've done this myself

1:18:27

you spend so much time

1:18:29

thinking about controlling,

1:18:31

and figuring out, you know,

1:18:34

how much sleep am I gonna get,

1:18:39

or what am I eating,

1:18:41

and then in the long run

1:18:43

it doesn't make any difference.

1:18:44

We're all in this journey towards death,

1:18:46

all of us,

1:18:50

and people take really good care

1:18:53

of their bodies,

1:18:55

and drop dead the next day at 59.

1:18:56

We just don't have control over that.

1:19:00

I don't know.

1:19:07

I wrote a poem.

1:19:09

I think the catalyst was one of

1:19:12

our last retreats at CSG,

1:19:15

and then Roberta Gibbons

1:19:18

who was the assistant director at Aurora

1:19:19

when I started who now teaches

1:19:22

at Metro State asked me one time

1:19:24

they hadn't been part of any kind

1:19:28

of organized institutional church

1:19:31

as a family and her oldest

1:19:34

was like 12 or 13,

1:19:37

and she was saying should he

1:19:39

be some place for confirmation?

1:19:41

She was looking at the confirmation

1:19:44

program at Unity

1:19:45

because they do such a great job

1:19:47

of sex education,

1:19:50

and I think Nate did do that,

1:19:52

but I don't know

1:19:54

what there is a family,

1:19:55

but she was just questioning me,

1:19:58

so I pulled out this poem,

1:20:00

and it was I believe in awed.

1:20:01

-

Awed, do you remember what else?

1:20:05

That sounds great.

1:20:07

-

It's just a whole bunch

1:20:08

of reflections about what has

1:20:09

brought awe to my life.

1:20:13

It's far broader than

1:20:18

my Norwegian grandparents who taught me

1:20:25

all the verses to Holy, Holy, Holy,

1:20:28

probably

1:20:31

before I could breathe,

1:20:34

or my parents understanding of life.

1:20:39

Some of the filters in my own life

1:20:46

have been to say no that isn't, this is

1:20:48

that dualism.

1:20:54

I think it's just really important

1:20:58

to have your breath taken away by

1:21:00

either something that's so beautiful,

1:21:03

or so horrible

1:21:04

that it causes you not only to wonder,

1:21:07

but to act.

1:21:11

-

That sounds like a great

1:21:14

place to stop.

1:21:15

I believe in awe.

1:21:16

Thank you so much, Jerie, thank you.

1:21:17

Smith, Jerie

Transcript

Item Info

Sallie Bingham Center for Women's History & Culture