Smith, Jerie
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- | All right, if you could say your name. | 0:01 |
- | My name is Jerie Smith. | 0:05 |
- | Thank you, and are you lay or clergy? | 0:06 |
- | Both, sort of. | 0:09 |
- | Sort of, now explain that | 0:11 |
that's interesting. | 0:12 | |
- | All the time that I was | 0:14 |
part of Reimagining, and up until | 0:15 | |
about six months ago I was lay, | 0:18 | |
or a certified lay professional | 0:21 | |
in the ELCA. | 0:23 | |
I am now ordained | 0:26 | |
in the Universal Church at the pressure | 0:27 | |
of several of my friends | 0:32 | |
who wanted me to do their weddings. | 0:34 | |
- | Could you say some more about | 0:37 |
certified lay professional? | 0:39 | |
- | Well, it's | 0:42 |
a credential that the Lutheran Church | 0:47 | |
offers to people who are not ordained, | 0:49 | |
and go through certain | 0:52 | |
processes of | 0:55 | |
casting out both verbally, | 0:59 | |
and focus on theological. | 1:02 | |
Just the ability to do ministry. | 1:06 | |
After you | 1:09 | |
have a certain amount | 1:10 | |
of experience in the church | 1:12 | |
then you can apply for their process. | 1:14 | |
Then the outcome is that you are | 1:17 | |
called an associate in the ministry, | 1:19 | |
so that's the title, | 1:22 | |
but it's a certification. | 1:24 | |
- | Okay, could you say a little bit | 1:26 |
about your career | 1:28 | |
what kind of work you did? | 1:29 | |
- | Well, it's always been with | 1:31 |
kids, youth, and young adults, | 1:33 | |
and I started out in camping, | 1:35 | |
and then was | 1:38 | |
a pseudo kind of youth director, | 1:41 | |
education person. | 1:44 | |
- | At a camp for a church? | 1:47 |
- | For a church camping was about, | 1:50 |
I think, there were two summers. | 1:52 | |
Then I got married | 1:56 | |
to one of the people I met at camp, | 1:58 | |
and we ran the camp for 2-1/2 years, | 2:00 | |
and came back to the Cities, | 2:02 | |
and then I was a youth education | 2:03 | |
person in the congregation | 2:06 | |
until we divorced. | 2:11 | |
Then I worked for Ebenezer Society | 2:12 | |
for 2-1/2 years as an administrator, | 2:16 | |
their Ebenezer, and Luther Halls, | 2:20 | |
which Luther doesn't even exist anymore. | 2:25 | |
After that I went to Campus Ministry | 2:28 | |
at the University of Minnesota where | 2:31 | |
I was until almost eight years ago. | 2:33 | |
Then I was offered a position | 2:37 | |
at the University, | 2:39 | |
and I've been there ever since. | 2:41 | |
- | In what position? | 2:43 |
- | I am the Volunteer Coordinator | 2:44 |
for the Aurora Center, | 2:45 | |
which is the Sexual Assault | 2:47 | |
Center on campus. | 2:48 | |
- | Part of that time | 2:51 |
you ran a retreat center? | 2:52 | |
- | Yeah, John and I ran | 2:54 |
the Center for Spiritual Growth | 2:57 | |
in Cambridge for about nine years. | 2:58 | |
Yeah, I think, about nine years, | 3:04 | |
and then sold it to two women | 3:07 | |
who the community call the nuns, | 3:09 | |
but they're a Lesbian couple | 3:12 | |
who had foster children and worked. | 3:15 | |
They were living in Pine City. | 3:18 | |
They had a very large house, | 3:20 | |
but not big enough | 3:22 | |
because their focus was to keep | 3:22 | |
siblings together when it was necessary, | 3:25 | |
and at that time they had four kids. | 3:28 | |
- | Wow. | 3:30 |
- | They wanted a place | 3:31 |
where they could do that. | 3:32 | |
You saw the property | 3:35 | |
they since have added a barn, | 3:36 | |
and a couple horses, | 3:37 | |
and chickens. | 3:40 | |
They're kind of self-sustaining. | 3:42 | |
- | Wonderful, it must feel good to know | 3:44 |
that's where the Retreat Center went. | 3:46 | |
- | Yeah, because someone told me once | 3:49 |
that one of the words for retreat | 3:51 | |
it has something to do with | 3:54 | |
foster care or the care of children | 3:58 | |
who are waiting for adoption, or something. | 4:02 | |
- | Perfect. | 4:04 |
- | Yeah, it is. | 4:05 |
Something's happened there that was good. | 4:07 | |
- | Yes, yeah. | 4:11 |
Well, thank you. | 4:13 | |
Where did you to school, | 4:14 | |
graduate, or divinity school? | 4:16 | |
- | I had some courses | 4:19 |
and classes at Luther, | 4:20 | |
but the Campus Ministry process offered, | 4:21 | |
again, | 4:25 | |
courses that were necessary | 4:27 | |
to contribute to the certification, | 4:31 | |
so I have what's called | 4:33 | |
the equivalency of an M.A. | 4:35 | |
- | Okay. | 4:38 |
How and when did you first | 4:41 | |
become aware of feminist theology? | 4:43 | |
- | I don't know about feminist theology, | 4:46 |
but I was part of, | 4:48 | |
and I'll figure out how to tie this in, | 4:53 | |
but I was part of the committee, | 4:56 | |
and the church in the Minnesota Synod | 4:59 | |
that certified all of the people | 5:01 | |
who were going through | 5:03 | |
the ordination process. | 5:04 | |
It was about 30, 35 people. | 5:07 | |
I was the first woman | 5:10 | |
ever to be on that committee. | 5:11 | |
At the time of the meeting | 5:13 | |
that I'm talking about | 5:15 | |
another woman had been added, | 5:16 | |
so there were two of us, | 5:18 | |
and about 30 people | 5:19 | |
around the table in a room. | 5:21 | |
We were trying to solve a pretty | 5:22 | |
difficult situation with a candidate | 5:26 | |
just had a whole bunch | 5:31 | |
of extenuating circumstances. | 5:33 | |
I remember | 5:37 | |
a lot of silence because he didn't know | 5:39 | |
exactly where to move or what to do, | 5:42 | |
and then voicing an opinion that I had, | 5:44 | |
and the silence continued, and continued. | 5:47 | |
Someone directly across from me | 5:52 | |
said exactly the same thing I said | 5:53 | |
who was a male, | 5:55 | |
and the Chair said, | 5:57 | |
"That's a great idea." | 5:58 | |
Someone sitting right next to me | 6:00 | |
who I'd known most of my life said, | 6:02 | |
"Didn't Jerie just say that?" | 6:04 | |
Then he just got red, you know, beet red | 6:06 | |
because he knew that | 6:09 | |
he kind of outed himself to the boys. | 6:12 | |
I went to the bathroom, | 6:16 | |
and in the bathroom tried to figure out | 6:18 | |
am I gonna go back in there, | 6:21 | |
or am I gonna leave? | 6:22 | |
It was just that click. | 6:26 | |
Some people have been telling me | 6:30 | |
that this happens. | 6:32 | |
You either experienced it before, | 6:35 | |
or realized it before, | 6:37 | |
but it was kind of | 6:39 | |
a big screen | 6:42 | |
in front of me. | 6:45 | |
I did choose to go back in. | 6:47 | |
- | Did you, yes? | 6:48 |
- | Probably in part because | 6:50 |
my stuff was in there, | 6:52 | |
you know, I had to go back, | 6:54 | |
pick it up, and leave. | 6:55 | |
- | Right. | 6:57 |
- | But I did go back in. | 6:57 |
Then I just started | 7:02 | |
to pay more attention. | 7:03 | |
Then about six or eight months later | 7:05 | |
I started up | 7:09 | |
a group for women | 7:11 | |
who many of us had been saying | 7:13 | |
to each other let's have lunch, | 7:15 | |
and never did it. | 7:16 | |
Barbara Lundblad was part of that group. | 7:19 | |
- | Really? | 7:21 |
When would this have been roughly? | 7:22 | |
- | Now I'm glad I never made this up. | 7:25 |
I was so afraid you were going to | 7:27 | |
ask me dates, | 7:29 | |
but it would have to have been | 7:30 | |
in the 60's. | 7:34 | |
- | In the '60's, okay, yeah. | 7:35 |
Just to get a general sense | 7:37 | |
of when it was. | 7:39 | |
- | I started in Campus Ministry in '71 | 7:40 |
at least I know that | 7:43 | |
kind of that awareness | 7:47 | |
that helps. | 7:51 | |
It probably was '72, '73. | 7:52 | |
- | Okay, yeah. | 7:54 |
What about this group | 7:56 | |
of women that you formed? | 7:57 | |
What was the purpose for it? | 7:59 | |
- | I don't know if you know Strengths, | 8:02 |
or an app, | 8:06 | |
but it's a thing that's used | 8:06 | |
a lot in corporations, | 8:09 | |
and the university has been using it | 8:10 | |
where you get to know | 8:12 | |
your top five strengths. | 8:13 | |
One of mine is strategic, | 8:15 | |
so that's how my head kind of works, | 8:17 | |
but, okay, now I know this. | 8:20 | |
Now what can I do, | 8:22 | |
or what can I construct, | 8:24 | |
or put together that might help | 8:26 | |
to build on this, | 8:29 | |
and, also, help to validate | 8:30 | |
my own experience | 8:32 | |
by the experience of others. | 8:33 | |
I really was curious | 8:36 | |
about the relationship with women | 8:38 | |
with each other in the church. | 8:40 | |
- | Excuse me for interrupting. | 8:42 |
Is this all Lutheran women in the church? | 8:43 | |
- | Yeah. | 8:45 |
- | Okay, got it. | 8:46 |
- | That kind of silly thing about | 8:50 |
meeting people in other situations, | 8:52 | |
and saying, you know, | 8:55 | |
we really should talk, | 8:56 | |
or we really should do something more, | 8:57 | |
and neither person really | 8:59 | |
continuing to initiate it | 9:02 | |
intrigued me, especially, | 9:05 | |
when I started paying more attention | 9:07 | |
to what was going on in feminism. | 9:08 | |
I should say that not theologically, | 9:10 | |
but feminism was first | 9:12 | |
brought up to me by | 9:13 | |
Joanne Erickson, who I grew up with, | 9:18 | |
we knew each other from third grade. | 9:21 | |
We were at Gustavus together. | 9:23 | |
She left Gustavus when she graduated, | 9:26 | |
and went to New York, | 9:29 | |
wrote me a letter. | 9:31 | |
I was 21 years old | 9:32 | |
when I opened that letter, | 9:33 | |
and read it standing | 9:35 | |
in the kitchen of the house | 9:37 | |
we were living in on 3rd Avenue. | 9:38 | |
I had been married for | 9:39 | |
probably less than three years. | 9:42 | |
No, I wasn't 21, I was about 25. | 9:45 | |
The letter told me that she was | 9:49 | |
a Lesbian and a feminist. | 9:52 | |
I wrote her back and said, | 9:55 | |
I don't love you any less than | 9:58 | |
before I read the letter, | 10:03 | |
but you're gonna have to tell me | 10:04 | |
about this feminism stuff. | 10:06 | |
She sent me a whole bunch of things, | 10:07 | |
and in her letter back | 10:10 | |
she was kind of interested | 10:12 | |
in the fact that I responded | 10:14 | |
more to the feminism then I did | 10:16 | |
to her being a Lesbian. | 10:17 | |
- | Yeah. | 10:19 |
- | In fact, it totally didn't | 10:21 |
make any difference to me. | 10:23 | |
I knew who she was. | 10:27 | |
I don't know how I got into that. | 10:31 | |
- | Well, I'm curious, | 10:33 |
what was your reaction then to feminism? | 10:34 | |
Do you remember when you started? | 10:36 | |
This was a vivid memory for you. | 10:37 | |
- | We were talking about | 10:39 |
the group being formed. | 10:41 | |
I think | 10:42 | |
because of my personality, I think, | 10:44 | |
I think somewhat analytically, | 10:47 | |
strategically about what things | 10:50 | |
are going on, | 10:51 | |
but I learned through the human | 10:52 | |
potential movement, | 10:55 | |
and a lot of training, | 10:56 | |
and another certification that I have | 10:58 | |
in that to trust my gut, | 11:01 | |
and to try to put | 11:03 | |
both of those together, | 11:05 | |
so I had some | 11:09 | |
hunches | 11:11 | |
about | 11:12 | |
women just having a difficult time | 11:14 | |
figuring out how to do this | 11:17 | |
connecting thing | 11:20 | |
with competition | 11:22 | |
happening at the same time. | 11:24 | |
The original group was nine people. | 11:25 | |
Nine women three of whom | 11:28 | |
were professionals like myself | 11:30 | |
in the church. | 11:32 | |
Three of whom were | 11:34 | |
strong white women who were | 11:37 | |
really involved in their congregations, | 11:39 | |
and three pastor's wives. | 11:41 | |
We were together for ... | 11:45 | |
I know Barbara can | 11:47 | |
probably remember more. | 11:48 | |
Probably at least two years, | 11:50 | |
and maybe longer, | 11:53 | |
but within the first three | 11:54 | |
to four months we made a commitment | 11:56 | |
to meet, I think, at least once a month. | 11:58 | |
Sometimes, we met more than that. | 12:02 | |
The pastor's wives dropped out. | 12:06 | |
- | Really, do you know why that was? | 12:08 |
- | Well, I think they were | 12:11 |
more than concerned about the fact | 12:13 | |
that we were working | 12:15 | |
with their husbands. | 12:16 | |
- | Oh. | 12:18 |
- | To kind of | 12:21 |
know us more was more threatening | 12:23 | |
to them than less. | 12:26 | |
- | Really? | 12:27 |
- | Yeah | 12:28 |
- | That seems almost counterintuitive. | 12:29 |
Interesting. | 12:31 | |
- | It was very unusual. | 12:33 |
We continued and then a couple | 12:39 | |
of other people joined us. | 12:41 | |
- | What came out of that group? | 12:43 |
- | Well, Barbara Lundblad | 12:45 |
went to Union Seminary. | 12:47 | |
Susan (mumbles) went to Berkeley Seminary. | 12:49 | |
One of | 12:55 | |
the women had | 12:56 | |
a pretty serious psychotic break. | 12:58 | |
The rest of us actually supported her, | 13:02 | |
paid her car payment, | 13:06 | |
and a couple of other things to | 13:07 | |
be helpful. | 13:11 | |
and there's a lot of backstory in that. | 13:12 | |
I'm trying to remember who the other. | 13:19 | |
The other layperson where did she go? | 13:20 | |
She went to Philadelphia | 13:24 | |
to work for the LCA | 13:25 | |
at the time, | 13:28 | |
and married a professional golfer, | 13:30 | |
got divorced, she's back here now. | 13:32 | |
- | When you got together did you | 13:34 |
all have stories about how hard | 13:36 | |
it was to be in the church? | 13:38 | |
Was that a common theme or not? | 13:39 | |
- | I wouldn't say hard, but some | 13:46 |
of the the kind of emerging | 13:49 | |
challenges, | 13:54 | |
you know, and one story | 13:56 | |
was told then it was easier to identify | 13:57 | |
a story that might contribute, | 14:02 | |
but, I think, we weren't | 14:03 | |
as focused on the church I don't think | 14:05 | |
as we were on feminism, | 14:07 | |
and kind of trying to figure out | 14:08 | |
what's going on in human history | 14:10 | |
that may have something to do with | 14:13 | |
who we are as women. | 14:16 | |
We read a lot of articles. | 14:17 | |
We read Gloria Steinem. | 14:19 | |
Everything was breaking at that time. | 14:23 | |
- | And you were resonating with this. | 14:26 |
- | Yeah, or, you know, able to wonder. | 14:28 |
I don't know whether we looked at | 14:32 | |
any of that with a very critical mind | 14:34 | |
as much as kind of curiosity, | 14:36 | |
and interest, and amazement | 14:39 | |
because I think a lot of early feminism | 14:41 | |
really spoke to women's experience, | 14:43 | |
and you could resonate with, | 14:46 | |
again, not maybe so much with your head | 14:49 | |
as with your gut, you know, | 14:51 | |
someone speaking my truth | 14:54 | |
that I didn't expect to hear not here. | 14:56 | |
- | Yes, this is really important, | 15:00 |
and kind of sets the stage. | 15:02 | |
Was there a point at which you then | 15:03 | |
discovered feminist theology in particular? | 15:05 | |
- | There was so much | 15:15 |
that wasn't even published. | 15:16 | |
When I started it probably | 15:22 | |
would be more where that was when | 15:24 | |
Barbara went to Union because, | 15:26 | |
you know, everybody lives out there. | 15:29 | |
- | Yeah, so it was through her | 15:31 |
that you started learning about it. | 15:33 | |
- | Yeah, but | 15:34 |
I also | 15:38 | |
at that time, | 15:40 | |
or maybe a little bit later | 15:42 | |
I started a similar group | 15:44 | |
for women in Campus Ministry. | 15:45 | |
There were some staff. | 15:49 | |
- | To study feminism? | 15:51 |
- | More consciousness raising. | 15:54 |
When I first started in Campus Ministry | 15:57 | |
we were at the place of | 16:01 | |
it was the end of war, | 16:06 | |
Campus Ministry at the University | 16:09 | |
had been very much identified | 16:11 | |
with protesting the war. | 16:12 | |
Support for the ministries | 16:15 | |
was really down, | 16:18 | |
so we had to kind of | 16:20 | |
struggle and figure out how we're | 16:22 | |
gonna keep this boat afloat. | 16:23 | |
Probably two years after I started | 16:28 | |
we began a cooperative ministry | 16:32 | |
with Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod | 16:34 | |
which changed everything | 16:36 | |
about the role of women. | 16:38 | |
- | Could you say some more about that? | 16:41 |
- | We packed up our stuff, | 16:44 |
we sold our building, and we moved | 16:45 | |
into the Missouri Synod Building | 16:46 | |
not as co-owners, but as renters. | 16:48 | |
That was really intentional | 16:52 | |
because we knew that | 16:53 | |
we might have to leave quick, | 16:54 | |
and breaking a lease was a lot easier | 16:57 | |
than dividing a building in half. | 17:00 | |
- | How did it change the role of women? | 17:04 |
- | Well, Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod | 17:07 |
still does not recognize women. | 17:08 | |
If I had even at that time started | 17:12 | |
to think about being ordained | 17:15 | |
it wouldn't have flown. | 17:18 | |
I wouldn't have had a job. | 17:21 | |
I do remember thinking | 17:23 | |
some about it at that time, and then | 17:25 | |
being discouraged from doing that | 17:29 | |
because we had a really progressive | 17:32 | |
Missouri Synod pastor. | 17:34 | |
He did everything he could to put me | 17:36 | |
in front of the community | 17:38 | |
every time possible, | 17:41 | |
and I did preach there, | 17:42 | |
and I did lead worship, | 17:44 | |
but never when there was any official | 17:46 | |
from Missouri Synod Church. | 17:48 | |
Roger and I would | 17:52 | |
try to do some education | 17:53 | |
for Missouri Synod pastors, | 17:55 | |
which is always really interesting | 17:57 | |
because we could do a presentation | 17:59 | |
that I might even do the majority of it, | 18:00 | |
and question and answer at the time | 18:03 | |
they would ask questions of him. | 18:05 | |
That was really ... | 18:08 | |
- | Yeah. | 18:09 |
- | We once did a workshop for a conference | 18:11 |
Missouri Synod Conference. | 18:15 | |
There was a list | 18:17 | |
of workshops with names. | 18:19 | |
I think my title of my presentation | 18:22 | |
was probably kind of intriguing. | 18:25 | |
A lot of people started | 18:27 | |
to walk in the door they thought I was | 18:29 | |
because of my name ... | 18:30 | |
- | Jerie. | 18:31 |
- | Thought I was a man, | 18:32 |
turned around and walked out. | 18:33 | |
- | Really, wow. | 18:35 |
- | I had a lot of experiences like that. | 18:36 |
Again, that was increasing | 18:40 | |
my awareness | 18:43 | |
both of that role in the church, | 18:45 | |
and the role | 18:47 | |
in the broader community. | 18:49 | |
The women's group they formed | 18:53 | |
there were a lot of stories. | 18:55 | |
You know, I'm just sitting here | 18:58 | |
remembering a lot of painful stories | 19:00 | |
of Missouri Synod women | 19:02 | |
just never feeling fully accepted. | 19:07 | |
It probably stemmed a lot from the fact | 19:13 | |
that the person who was the president | 19:15 | |
of Missouri Synod | 19:17 | |
in the state of Minnesota at that time | 19:18 | |
his daughter was our secretary. | 19:20 | |
She was part of the women's group. | 19:22 | |
She would just tell about the things | 19:25 | |
that were on her heart and mind, | 19:28 | |
and could never have a conversation | 19:30 | |
with her father about that. | 19:33 | |
That just seemed so | 19:38 | |
both sad, | 19:41 | |
and, you know, angry | 19:43 | |
strong feelings about | 19:46 | |
not being able to do those things. | 19:51 | |
Within that campus ministry setting | 19:53 | |
we tried, we pushed a whole lot | 19:55 | |
of boundaries, and did a whole of things | 19:58 | |
that wouldn't have floated | 20:01 | |
anybody else's boat in Missouri Synod, | 20:03 | |
but, I think, it helped | 20:05 | |
women feel better about their role, | 20:08 | |
but never changed anything. | 20:11 | |
Roger and I had ... | 20:16 | |
He's the Missouri Synod pastor | 20:18 | |
he's now dead, | 20:19 | |
had several conversations about | 20:21 | |
will the church ever change | 20:25 | |
if there just is this | 20:28 | |
under the table stuff that's going on. | 20:31 | |
I mean how long | 20:34 | |
can that go on before | 20:36 | |
will it really make a difference, | 20:38 | |
and he believed it would. | 20:40 | |
I did not believe it would. | 20:43 | |
I felt like we were doing | 20:46 | |
a little bit of bait-and-switch, | 20:48 | |
you know, trying to do this cool thing, | 20:51 | |
and then people would graduate, | 20:53 | |
or leave and go back to another | 20:55 | |
Missouri Synod Parish where everything | 20:58 | |
wasn't okay and take 10 steps backwards. | 21:00 | |
You know the Missouri Synod | 21:04 | |
marriage ceremony still sets that | 21:06 | |
much like the Roman Catholic, | 21:11 | |
which they would | 21:13 | |
screen if I said that | 21:15 | |
that you have children. | 21:19 | |
The first wedding that I was part of | 21:24 | |
I remember looking at that | 21:27 | |
reading it over. | 21:30 | |
I had done lots of liturgical stuff | 21:31 | |
but never | 21:33 | |
looked at the wedding service seriously. | 21:35 | |
I have two stories. | 21:42 | |
One of the chairs of our | 21:44 | |
Campus Ministry Committee | 21:45 | |
was a really fun, funny man | 21:45 | |
who would keep us in stitches | 21:48 | |
at a meeting. | 21:51 | |
I was living in an apartment building, | 21:52 | |
and the people upstairs | 21:54 | |
the grandma died, | 21:56 | |
and I went to the funeral. | 21:58 | |
Here was Fred presiding at the funeral. | 22:00 | |
I was really surprised. | 22:03 | |
I tell you hellfire, brimstone, | 22:04 | |
stern, judgmental. | 22:07 | |
I was just ... | 22:10 | |
- | Yes. | 22:13 |
- | I think there's a lot of mixture of | 22:14 |
getting to know people as people, | 22:19 | |
drinking beer with them, | 22:21 | |
and then seeing them in the context of | 22:22 | |
a liturgical setting, | 22:26 | |
or a place where they were | 22:27 | |
held more accountable somewhere else, | 22:29 | |
and then seeing the duplicity | 22:32 | |
just thinking what in the hell? | 22:34 | |
What was this all about? | 22:36 | |
Then I could question it because | 22:38 | |
I was still part of, you know, | 22:40 | |
a more progressive Lutheran church | 22:42 | |
that allowed some protection. | 22:44 | |
Then, eventually, the leadership | 22:47 | |
in the Missouri Synod changed. | 22:48 | |
We left that building and moved in | 22:51 | |
with Episcopalians. | 22:54 | |
- | Did you grow up LCA was that your? | 22:57 |
- | I grew up Augustana. | 23:00 |
- | Augustana, okay, yeah, got it. | 23:02 |
This is really interesting. | 23:05 | |
To move to Reimagining, | 23:07 | |
and this is great background for this | 23:09 | |
what was your relationship | 23:10 | |
to the Reimagining community? | 23:12 | |
- | I registered | 23:14 |
for the first conference | 23:16 | |
reluctantly. | 23:20 | |
- | Why reluctantly? | 23:22 |
- | I didn't know | 23:24 |
what purpose it would serve. | 23:25 | |
- | So why did you register? | 23:27 |
- | Probably someone told me | 23:29 |
that I should. | 23:31 | |
There was a lot of buzz. | 23:33 | |
I registered, and then | 23:36 | |
the timeline | 23:40 | |
was that I was at our National | 23:42 | |
Campus Ministry Conference in Chicago. | 23:46 | |
Gwen King | 23:50 | |
who was a Campus pastor | 23:53 | |
out East somewhere, | 23:55 | |
I don't remember where, | 23:56 | |
who I thought was so cool | 24:02 | |
whose a woman of color told me | 24:03 | |
that she was on the waiting list. | 24:05 | |
During our conference she got called, | 24:08 | |
and said there was a space for her, | 24:10 | |
and she said that she wanted to come, | 24:12 | |
but there was no hotel space. | 24:15 | |
I said, well, you can come, | 24:17 | |
and stay with me, | 24:18 | |
so then I was committed to go. | 24:20 | |
Frankly, I don't think when I got back | 24:23 | |
from Chicago from that conference | 24:26 | |
I don't think I would have gone. | 24:28 | |
I think I would have opted out. | 24:30 | |
- | Really? | 24:31 |
- | But because Gwen was there, | 24:32 |
and I knew Barbara was gonna be there. | 24:34 | |
- | Yes, Barbara Lundblad. | 24:35 |
- | Uh-hmm. | 24:36 |
- | What was the experience | 24:40 |
then for you at the conference? | 24:41 | |
- | It was certainly important. | 24:50 |
I think some of the most important | 24:53 | |
things had to do with hearing people | 24:54 | |
from other countries. | 24:56 | |
It seems like it was | 25:06 | |
such a long time ago, | 25:07 | |
and like it was absolutely | 25:09 | |
ages ago and just in terms | 25:12 | |
of some of the change. | 25:13 | |
I just remember when all the | 25:15 | |
women | 25:21 | |
who identified as other gendered | 25:24 | |
got up together, | 25:29 | |
and Barbara and I were sitting | 25:30 | |
at the same table at the time, | 25:31 | |
and the dilemma in her | 25:32 | |
about whether she was | 25:34 | |
gonna walk up there or not. | 25:36 | |
We talked about it the night before. | 25:38 | |
- | Did she decide to get up or not? | 25:43 |
- | She did not. | 25:46 |
I told her that if you go | 25:49 | |
I'll go with you. | 25:51 | |
I think a lot | 25:56 | |
of the table conversations, | 25:58 | |
just meeting people from | 26:01 | |
lots of different places was | 26:04 | |
important to me. | 26:07 | |
I was really frustrated at how few | 26:09 | |
Lutherans were there and involved. | 26:11 | |
Two or three of the people | 26:17 | |
from here from Minnesota were, | 26:18 | |
I think, | 26:22 | |
always kind of looking over | 26:24 | |
their shoulder at who else was there | 26:25 | |
who was seeing that they were there. | 26:27 | |
- | Anxious about being seen? | 26:30 |
- | Yeah, it was disappointing to me. | 26:33 |
We had a hard time trying | 26:35 | |
to figure out how to caucus. | 26:36 | |
- | During the conference? | 26:39 |
- | During the conference, | 26:41 |
and then as well afterwards, | 26:42 | |
you know, as Lutherans. | 26:44 | |
It was kind of like | 26:46 | |
that was a good experience but. | 26:47 | |
- | Why was it hard? | 26:50 |
- | Here's another piece because | 26:53 |
in Campus Ministry at that time | 26:54 | |
I had been doing a women's group | 26:57 | |
that included seminary students, | 26:59 | |
and women who were in congregations. | 27:01 | |
That period of time I was the person | 27:03 | |
who really knew every woman | 27:06 | |
who was in ministry. | 27:09 | |
I made it a point | 27:10 | |
of | 27:12 | |
getting to know, | 27:15 | |
and many people would say | 27:15 | |
if you're gonna go to Luther Seminary | 27:17 | |
you need to talk to Jerie, | 27:18 | |
so Campus Ministry and now we're with, | 27:21 | |
or (mumbles) with Episcopalians | 27:24 | |
kind of became the go-to place in a way | 27:27 | |
for women who wanted | 27:31 | |
to identify as feminists. | 27:32 | |
We would talk a lot in that group | 27:38 | |
about, you know, this is how | 27:41 | |
it's gonna be when folks get out there, | 27:44 | |
and then it would all fall apart. | 27:47 | |
- | Once they got in the church. | 27:50 |
- | Several of those women | 27:51 |
were at the conference, | 27:53 | |
and even kind of being reminded, | 27:54 | |
I think, of what they felt committed to, | 27:56 | |
and what was actually possible was | 28:00 | |
great disparity, | 28:03 | |
and hard to kind of be with each other, | 28:06 | |
and own that. | 28:09 | |
- | Right. | 28:10 |
- | I continued that group | 28:13 |
until | 28:20 | |
women's ordination happened, | 28:22 | |
and it was maybe five, | 28:24 | |
or 10 years after that. | 28:26 | |
We had a retreat. | 28:29 | |
They asked me to do a retreat for them. | 28:31 | |
The Synod actually asked me | 28:33 | |
to do a retreat | 28:34 | |
while he had the retreat center. | 28:35 | |
- | Yes. | 28:37 |
- | 15, 18 | 28:40 |
women together | 28:42 | |
in the living room the first night. | 28:44 | |
I started with whatever | 28:46 | |
we'd agreed upon that night, | 28:49 | |
prepared and went to nowhere. | 28:51 | |
One of the women | 28:57 | |
who since has left, Perry Schienbien, | 29:01 | |
long-term chaplain, | 29:03 | |
hospital chaplain said, | 29:05 | |
maybe it would help us if we | 29:08 | |
all went around, | 29:11 | |
and talked about what it is | 29:13 | |
that we pretend, | 29:14 | |
and | 29:17 | |
people did. | 29:19 | |
One major thing was I have to | 29:25 | |
pretend that I understand | 29:28 | |
what it is to be | 29:30 | |
a rule-breaker, | 29:35 | |
first person doing this, | 29:38 | |
and that I know what it is | 29:40 | |
to be a feminist. | 29:42 | |
It was a real general | 29:44 | |
understanding of needing | 29:46 | |
to step out, | 29:48 | |
and be on the edge of something | 29:50 | |
that no one had really asked to be, | 29:51 | |
or didn't really want to do | 29:54 | |
just wanted to study theology, | 29:56 | |
and be a pastor. | 29:58 | |
- | Right, they were put into that role | 29:59 |
of rule-breaker. | 30:01 | |
- | Yeah, and then some people talked | 30:03 |
about the lack of continuity, | 30:05 | |
and what it is that they experienced | 30:08 | |
in their hearts, | 30:10 | |
and what they've been taught, | 30:13 | |
and how it was that they came | 30:16 | |
into a parish to be a pastor | 30:18 | |
kind of in terms | 30:22 | |
of what the church expected | 30:23 | |
did not have | 30:26 | |
continuity with what it is | 30:28 | |
that they were feeling. | 30:30 | |
Then that made them start to question | 30:32 | |
both theology as well as scripture. | 30:35 | |
That conversation went on | 30:40 | |
into the night. | 30:42 | |
As we finished one of the women got up | 30:46 | |
went into the bathroom, | 30:49 | |
threw up, put her coat on, | 30:50 | |
picked up her suitcase, | 30:52 | |
and would not talk to any of us. | 30:54 | |
- | Wow. | 30:57 |
- | Within a year, year and a half | 31:00 |
she was no longer in the parish, | 31:02 | |
but she was really, really angry | 31:06 | |
at us for questioning | 31:08 | |
the church, the bible. | 31:11 | |
- | So with all of that work | 31:16 |
that you were doing | 31:17 | |
when you went to | 31:19 | |
that Reimagining Conference | 31:20 | |
you heard the theology that was spoken, | 31:22 | |
and you just (mumbles) the ritual | 31:24 | |
did this feel new to you? | 31:26 | |
How did you react to it? | 31:28 | |
- | I don't think that it felt new | 31:31 |
to me as much as it felt more real. | 31:34 | |
I remember the African women | 31:42 | |
talking such ... | 31:45 | |
- | Like the mercy of dooye. | 31:48 |
- | It could have been. | 31:50 |
- | Yeah, okay, whatever, okay, good. | 31:51 |
- | I remember her talking about | 31:54 |
how she wasn't always sure | 31:56 | |
who her mother was, | 31:58 | |
and that it takes a community | 32:01 | |
to raise a child. | 32:02 | |
- | Yes. | 32:04 |
- | I just remember mulling that | 32:05 |
over and over and over in my mind. | 32:06 | |
I think in part | 32:09 | |
my folks, you know, | 32:11 | |
did the great American Dream. | 32:13 | |
Built a little house | 32:16 | |
with a white picket fence, | 32:17 | |
and then you have to | 32:19 | |
take care of yourselves, | 32:19 | |
and you have to be your only resource, | 32:20 | |
and you don't ever tell anybody else | 32:23 | |
that you might wonder about something, | 32:24 | |
or not know how to do everything. | 32:27 | |
Just somehow, you know, thinking about | 32:30 | |
what it would have been like | 32:32 | |
to grow up where there were | 32:33 | |
many different people | 32:35 | |
to see what life was like | 32:37 | |
instead of being forced and reinforced, | 32:40 | |
you know, by, okay, | 32:42 | |
you went to Cathy Butel's, | 32:44 | |
and you ate peanut butter | 32:46 | |
for the first time. | 32:47 | |
Peanut butter is good. | 32:49 | |
That's only one experience. | 32:52 | |
I have some cough drops. | 32:55 | |
- | Oh, thanks, I think I'm okay, | 32:56 |
but thank you. | 32:57 | |
I'll let you know. | 32:59 | |
I apologize for the coughing. | 33:00 | |
Let's talk about the backlash | 33:04 | |
for a minute. | 33:06 | |
Were you affected by it | 33:07 | |
at all personally? | 33:09 | |
- | I would not say that I was affected | 33:11 |
by it personally because Campus Ministry | 33:14 | |
was kind of the bastion of | 33:17 | |
you can be weird. | 33:19 | |
There was always this back and forth | 33:23 | |
between Campus Ministry, | 33:25 | |
and the real church. | 33:27 | |
The real church kind of wanted | 33:28 | |
us to be that bastion, | 33:30 | |
so that they could kind of refer, | 33:32 | |
and encourage people | 33:36 | |
to have another alternative, | 33:37 | |
but not too much. | 33:39 | |
Then we had to kowtow to the church | 33:41 | |
in some way and kind of show. | 33:44 | |
I think that's why | 33:45 | |
Campus Ministry has this | 33:47 | |
town/gown | 33:49 | |
kind of who are we supposed to be, | 33:53 | |
and we justify our behavior. | 33:56 | |
Kim's ministry justifies this behavior | 33:58 | |
by being liturgical | 34:00 | |
when I think it would be | 34:02 | |
far more effective if it focused on | 34:03 | |
what it means to be | 34:05 | |
part of higher education | 34:07 | |
in a university setting, | 34:09 | |
and actually being part of the dialogue | 34:10 | |
of what's going on in the world. | 34:13 | |
- | Yes. | 34:15 |
- | Let the congregations | 34:16 |
do the liturgical stuff, | 34:18 | |
but we had to do that in order to show | 34:19 | |
that we were legitimate. | 34:21 | |
- | Interesting, yeah. | 34:22 |
So kind of responsible | 34:24 | |
with two different constituencies, yeah. | 34:26 | |
How do you account for the backlash, | 34:30 | |
and how did you respond to it? | 34:32 | |
- | When I started to hear about folks | 34:35 |
losing their jobs, you know, it was | 34:38 | |
sad because some of those folks | 34:43 | |
had become people instead of just names. | 34:46 | |
It was hard for me to understand | 34:51 | |
that anything that happened | 34:55 | |
in that conference was enough for | 34:56 | |
someone to lose their job. | 34:58 | |
I mean, this is not | 35:00 | |
the big deal that it's a big deal, | 35:03 | |
but it's not a big deal | 35:06 | |
it's like tangible | 35:07 | |
real life stuff. | 35:09 | |
Then I was really angry. | 35:13 | |
When it's not your own denomination | 35:17 | |
you don't have the same power, | 35:19 | |
and nobody who I know was | 35:21 | |
Lutheran, you know, lost their job, | 35:24 | |
but I'm not sure | 35:31 | |
that many of the women who were Lutheran | 35:34 | |
maybe even told their congregation, | 35:37 | |
or their Bishop, | 35:39 | |
or anybody that they were there. | 35:41 | |
- | Yes, yeah. | 35:44 |
So you said you were angry. | 35:46 | |
Were you part of the forming | 35:47 | |
of the community? | 35:49 | |
- | No. | 35:53 |
How did I end up? | 35:56 | |
It was Nadine. | 35:58 | |
- | Nadine. | 35:59 |
- | It was Nadine who pulled me into. | 36:00 |
I really don't remember exactly how, | 36:07 | |
but there was an opening in the Board, | 36:09 | |
and they wanted a Lutheran. | 36:12 | |
Nadine was in Campus Ministry at that time. | 36:15 | |
- | Oh, right. | 36:19 |
- | Yeah, UBC. | 36:19 |
She said, would you consider doing this? | 36:22 | |
I was sort of interested, | 36:26 | |
but not really. | 36:29 | |
- | So why did you do it? | 36:31 |
- | I went to one of the meetings, | 36:34 |
and Sarah was there, too. | 36:37 | |
I knew Sarah from (mumbles) | 36:39 | |
- | Sarah Evans, yeah. | 36:40 |
- | I think it was just | 36:45 |
getting to know people better | 36:46 | |
who had been kind of distant, | 36:50 | |
and people being really welcoming. | 36:53 | |
- | Well, you ended up | 36:57 |
getting really involved. | 36:58 | |
- | Yeah, well, Pam reunited us. | 37:00 |
We still have breakfast once a month. | 37:03 | |
- | Oh, I love it, do you still? | 37:06 |
- | Uh-hmm. | 37:08 |
- | That's wonderful. | 37:09 |
- | Yeah, Pam and (mumbles) Perkins | 37:10 |
we were always the Perkins. | 37:12 | |
- | You were tri-chairs | 37:17 |
for how many was it three? | 37:18 | |
- | Three. | 37:20 |
- | Three of them, yeah, | 37:21 |
tell me about that process. | 37:22 | |
What was that like? | 37:24 | |
- | Well, again, I'm strategic, | 37:27 |
and I'm a connector. | 37:30 | |
I kind of am input, | 37:32 | |
gathering information. | 37:34 | |
I kind of appeal to | 37:35 | |
the things that I like to do. | 37:37 | |
I frankly do not like to be on a board | 37:40 | |
for the sake of just being there. | 37:43 | |
I'm much more happy | 37:46 | |
if I can actually make something happen. | 37:47 | |
- | Yes. | 37:50 |
- | So doing the nuts and bolts | 37:51 |
of the conferences. | 37:53 | |
I had done a lot of conferences before | 37:55 | |
I'd been made the chair of the ... | 37:59 | |
It's been so long (mumbles) | 38:04 | |
Minnesota Synod Conventions | 38:07 | |
both pre and post | 38:09 | |
ELCA. | 38:12 | |
There were | 38:14 | |
7,000 people when we were merged. | 38:16 | |
- | Yes. | 38:19 |
- | I knew | 38:22 |
the dynamics of how we had to do that, | 38:23 | |
and that's kind of the piece | 38:26 | |
that I brought. | 38:27 | |
Pam brought the artsy-fartsy | 38:29 | |
background, and Randy | 38:33 | |
brought the connections | 38:35 | |
to some of the places that we needed. | 38:37 | |
Then there were so many people | 38:39 | |
were part of Reimagining at that time | 38:41 | |
who kind of knew | 38:43 | |
speakers, and were eager to work on | 38:45 | |
the rituals and things. | 38:48 | |
It was not hard. | 38:49 | |
It was just not hard, | 38:51 | |
and it seemed to me after one year, | 38:52 | |
one round of doing it | 38:54 | |
it was easier to do that | 38:55 | |
then it was to sit on the board, | 38:57 | |
or do any of the other tasks | 38:59 | |
that were needed and necessary. | 39:01 | |
- | Yes, now I'm curious. | 39:03 |
Did you know Pam and Randy | 39:04 | |
before you became tri-chairs? | 39:06 | |
How did that happen? | 39:07 | |
- | Randy was a year ahead | 39:09 |
of me at Gustavus. | 39:11 | |
- | Oh, I didn't know that. | 39:12 |
- | So we've known each other | 39:13 |
for a really long time, | 39:15 | |
and we were part of whatever | 39:17 | |
the Lutheran student thing was | 39:20 | |
at Gustavus, I don't even remember. | 39:22 | |
I had a big crush on him, | 39:25 | |
but Joy won. | 39:28 | |
- | Did she, yeah. | 39:29 |
I'm gonna be interviewing him later. | 39:31 | |
Does he know this? | 39:33 | |
- | Yes. | 39:35 |
- | Okay, good. | 39:35 |
Because it's now public anyway. | 39:36 | |
- | Then he went off | 39:39 |
from Gustavus he went off to seminary, | 39:41 | |
and then he was overseas for a while, | 39:44 | |
and he came back to the Minnesota Synod. | 39:47 | |
We were at a Synod convention | 39:51 | |
a bunch of people. | 39:52 | |
The skeptics and the cynics | 39:55 | |
always stand in the back | 39:56 | |
at church meetings, you know, | 39:58 | |
I was standing back there. | 40:00 | |
I kept looking at this guy, | 40:03 | |
and trying to figure out | 40:05 | |
who in the heck is that | 40:06 | |
because in college | 40:09 | |
he was just a string bean. | 40:10 | |
I don't think he had | 40:12 | |
an extra ounce on him. | 40:12 | |
He never had a beard in college. | 40:14 | |
Here is this man who had | 40:17 | |
lost quite a bit of hair, full beard, | 40:19 | |
little bit of a pot, who is that? | 40:20 | |
Finally I just walked over, and said, Hi. | 40:24 | |
He said, do you remember who I am? | 40:28 | |
I said, sort of. | 40:30 | |
The Campus Ministry, | 40:36 | |
and seminary faculty and staff | 40:37 | |
who are at things that are often | 40:40 | |
kind of crouched in the same | 40:43 | |
stand in the back of the room. | 40:45 | |
We reconnected then. | 40:47 | |
- | Were you on | 40:49 |
a coordinating council together | 40:50 | |
is that how you ended up as tri-chairs? | 40:51 | |
- | Yeah, I think so. | 40:54 |
I think we were on. | 40:55 | |
Either that or Randy had just gone off, | 40:59 | |
and I came on. | 41:02 | |
- | Okay, right. | 41:03 |
- | But wanted to. | 41:05 |
I think he really saw the importance | 41:07 | |
of somebody from Luther Seminary, | 41:09 | |
and was kind of also looking for | 41:11 | |
a community of people | 41:14 | |
to support some of his own thoughts, | 41:15 | |
and feelings rather than the status quo | 41:18 | |
that was happening at Luther. | 41:20 | |
- | You had experience you mentioned | 41:24 |
planning conferences. | 41:25 | |
Was planning these gatherings different? | 41:28 | |
Was there a way that feminist theology | 41:31 | |
affected the process, | 41:33 | |
or the structure or anything? | 41:35 | |
- | I think we would kind of start out | 41:36 |
with some kind of ways, | 41:38 | |
in which, you know, a focus group, | 41:40 | |
or let's bring some people together, | 41:42 | |
and that would get down | 41:46 | |
to the nitty gritty of, you know, | 41:48 | |
there are deadlines, and heads in beds | 41:50 | |
that stuff has to be in order. | 41:55 | |
Some of the ritual planning, | 42:00 | |
and those things kind of had | 42:02 | |
a life of their own, | 42:04 | |
and people who liked doing that, | 42:05 | |
and wanted to make that happen. | 42:08 | |
I think we were all good at | 42:10 | |
finding ways to create, | 42:13 | |
or connect that energy, | 42:16 | |
and then letting go, | 42:18 | |
but Dan didn't have to have | 42:21 | |
supreme control over everything. | 42:23 | |
Pam was a little more control oriented. | 42:25 | |
- | So there were different groups | 42:30 |
that were planning like the rituals, | 42:30 | |
and everything, and you just sort of | 42:32 | |
orchestrated the whole process. | 42:33 | |
Okay, that makes sense. | 42:36 | |
What challenges were faced | 42:41 | |
by the community during the 10 years | 42:43 | |
that it was formed | 42:45 | |
at least your involvement, | 42:46 | |
and how were they addressed? | 42:47 | |
- | The overall challenge was | 42:48 |
are we or are we not? | 42:50 | |
Should we be an organization, | 42:52 | |
an institution should we not? | 42:55 | |
- | It's very existence, yeah. | 42:58 |
- | And by its very existence | 43:00 |
where we becoming an institution. | 43:02 | |
That was | 43:06 | |
voiced over and over and over again | 43:10 | |
by the groups that came | 43:13 | |
to use the center for spiritual growth. | 43:15 | |
Folks often who were coming together | 43:18 | |
because they wanted something | 43:20 | |
different than they had come from, | 43:23 | |
and they maybe would come, | 43:25 | |
and use our space because | 43:27 | |
it was a good space to think. | 43:28 | |
- | Yes. | 43:30 |
- | Some of them over periods of time | 43:32 |
would do not just a one time event, | 43:34 | |
but would maybe annually, | 43:37 | |
or semi-annually come and struggle with | 43:39 | |
who they wanted to be. | 43:42 | |
- | What kind of groups | 43:44 |
were these other groups? | 43:45 | |
- | People who would self-identify | 43:47 |
as a spirituality group, | 43:49 | |
and maybe they were | 43:51 | |
part of a congregation. | 43:53 | |
You have some relationship to one | 43:55 | |
of the congregations that used to come | 43:57 | |
it seems to me I remember. | 43:59 | |
- | There was a small group | 44:02 |
that I was part of. | 44:03 | |
Is that what you mean, I'm sorry, no? | 44:05 | |
- | No, it was a Methodist congregation. | 44:07 |
- | Yeah, my husband | 44:10 |
is a Methodist pastor. | 44:11 | |
- | Yeah. | 44:12 |
- | Yeah, Silver Lake it might have been. | 44:13 |
I'm just trying to remember, yeah. | 44:16 | |
I know I came individually. | 44:19 | |
- | It's fuzzy. | 44:21 |
- | I know, me too. | 44:22 |
- | You know, you come, | 44:23 |
and you're in a different setting, | 44:24 | |
and you start to think, well, | 44:25 | |
you know, we want to | 44:26 | |
break out of and do, | 44:28 | |
but pretty soon | 44:30 | |
it starts to look very similar. | 44:32 | |
- | Okay. | 44:36 |
- | Because that's the structure | 44:37 |
that we've been taught. | 44:40 | |
- | Yes. | 44:42 |
- | And we don't realize how well | 44:43 |
we've been taught it. | 44:45 | |
- | Yes. | 44:46 |
- | It is really hard to figure out | 44:48 |
how to take responsibility for | 44:50 | |
creating something new. | 44:55 | |
I think Reimagining | 44:59 | |
was always in | 45:02 | |
a dilemma, you know, we start | 45:04 | |
putting together all this structure | 45:07 | |
then is it really Reimagining, | 45:09 | |
but how do you do the work | 45:13 | |
that might be necessary? | 45:15 | |
Maybe that's one of the reasons, | 45:18 | |
too, that during the conferences | 45:20 | |
it seemed to me that the energy | 45:22 | |
in some of the conferences | 45:24 | |
in bringing people together | 45:26 | |
who were doing interesting creative work | 45:27 | |
was maybe at least for me | 45:31 | |
one of the best parts | 45:33 | |
of what Reimagining did, and then | 45:35 | |
to | 45:38 | |
fuss in the meantime about what to be, | 45:40 | |
or how to organize | 45:43 | |
less important. | 45:46 | |
I don't know. | 45:48 | |
I know twice we did | 45:50 | |
a retreat with Lutheran women | 45:53 | |
just for the purpose of talking about | 45:56 | |
what it would be like to be | 45:59 | |
another kind of spiritual community, | 46:01 | |
and then create a ritual | 46:04 | |
that we would end with, end the ritual | 46:05 | |
was so amazing to me. | 46:09 | |
I would just kind of stand back | 46:11 | |
from that and say, all right | 46:12 | |
there was an invocation, | 46:14 | |
there was, you know, the words. | 46:16 | |
It was just exactly the structure. | 46:19 | |
Where I did see some people | 46:22 | |
who came from different backgrounds | 46:25 | |
would come together where | 46:28 | |
some different way | 46:33 | |
of doing things might emerge. | 46:35 | |
- | Where they from more | 46:37 |
liturgical backgrounds? | 46:38 | |
- | Are you talking about | 46:40 |
the Lutheran women? | 46:41 | |
- | The women from different backgrounds | 46:42 |
who did something different | 46:44 | |
and didn't follow the same? | 46:45 | |
- | No, they may not be from any. | 46:46 |
- | May not from any, okay, yeah. | 46:47 |
- | Or long since left, whatever, | 46:49 |
but, sometimes, | 46:53 | |
that emphasis of trying to figure out | 46:55 | |
how to be more creative | 46:57 | |
than you've ever been before, | 46:59 | |
you know, is not | 47:01 | |
probably | 47:06 | |
not as helpful as, | 47:07 | |
and I'm not sure exactly what it is | 47:10 | |
because I really have walked away | 47:12 | |
from all of that. | 47:14 | |
- | Say some more about it's not | 47:16 |
trying to be creative | 47:18 | |
than you've ever been before | 47:19 | |
is not as helpful | 47:20 | |
what were you thinking? | 47:21 | |
- | Where I think all the energy goes into | 47:22 |
what it really is that you're trying | 47:26 | |
to create, you know, rather than | 47:27 | |
some self-analysis about | 47:32 | |
what's really going on, | 47:34 | |
and what's really needed or necessary. | 47:35 | |
When I was doing that sabbatical with | 47:38 | |
students, | 47:45 | |
I was also doing a piece | 47:47 | |
for the National Church on singleness, | 47:50 | |
and that was, you know, | 47:53 | |
kind of dovetailed in a way, | 47:55 | |
but I used to often talk with groups | 47:57 | |
of young adults about, you know, | 47:59 | |
two-thirds of the world is starving, | 48:03 | |
and most of us | 48:05 | |
are sitting on our fingers | 48:06 | |
waiting for Prince or Princess Charming. | 48:08 | |
Then we wonder why the world | 48:13 | |
is still how it is. | 48:14 | |
Sometimes, | 48:18 | |
trying to continue to create | 48:20 | |
can really be counterproductive, | 48:23 | |
I think, to be change in the world. | 48:24 | |
- | That's helpful. | 48:30 |
What aspects of Reimagining | 48:32 | |
were most significant to you and why? | 48:34 | |
- | Well, it's the same for me | 48:39 |
wherever I am it's the relationships. | 48:40 | |
Building relationships with people. | 48:43 | |
Learning from their experience. | 48:44 | |
Having the freedom to share | 48:46 | |
my own experience. | 48:48 | |
There are people | 48:57 | |
who will disagree with me | 48:58 | |
because I will react and say | 48:59 | |
I'm not an intellect, | 49:01 | |
but I am not as | 49:05 | |
excited about | 49:08 | |
playing with issues in my head | 49:11 | |
as much as I am trying to find, | 49:13 | |
or figure out where does that come from, | 49:16 | |
or why is that important | 49:19 | |
to the person who is saying it? | 49:21 | |
I think Reimagining in the conferences | 49:24 | |
did a nice job of creating | 49:26 | |
an atmosphere where people | 49:28 | |
could be who they were. | 49:30 | |
I don't think we were very stuffy. | 49:34 | |
I remember Mary Branowski | 49:40 | |
doing her doctoral thesis presentation. | 49:44 | |
I don't know if you heard it or not, | 49:51 | |
but the end was a whole | 49:53 | |
list of I wonders, | 49:54 | |
and just coming to the point of saying, | 49:57 | |
you know, I was supposed to come to | 49:58 | |
some kind of conclusion about this. | 49:59 | |
That's what a doctoral thesis | 50:02 | |
is supposed to be about, | 50:04 | |
but I'm still curious and wondering. | 50:06 | |
That's super helpful for me. | 50:12 | |
That's one of the pieces of my life | 50:13 | |
I've never forgotten. | 50:15 | |
- | Why is that? | 50:17 |
- | Well, it's someone who has | 50:18 |
put all this work, all this time, | 50:19 | |
all this energy, money | 50:21 | |
into | 50:23 | |
trying to prove to a group of people | 50:27 | |
that you are good enough | 50:29 | |
to have the title of Doctor | 50:32 | |
who can stand in front | 50:36 | |
of the same people, and say, | 50:38 | |
you know, I didn't quite get there. | 50:39 | |
- | Yeah. | 50:43 |
- | Just didn't quite get there. | 50:44 |
Didn't get all the questions answered, | 50:47 | |
in fact, there are more now | 50:48 | |
to be able to do that | 50:53 | |
in the academic community. | 50:55 | |
- | How or did your involvement | 51:05 |
in Reimagining change your perspective | 51:06 | |
on feminist theology and/or the church? | 51:09 | |
- | Yeppers, well, I've had enough | 51:14 |
of what was already Reimagining there. | 51:16 | |
Someone a long time ago asked me | 51:21 | |
about what I thought | 51:24 | |
was the seminal experience in my life | 51:26 | |
that | 51:29 | |
projected me into | 51:31 | |
social gospel, I think, was his point. | 51:34 | |
He was talking about social gospel, | 51:37 | |
and we were on a long car ride. | 51:39 | |
- | This sounds like a conversation | 51:43 |
for a long car ride. | 51:44 | |
- | This is Vince Hawkinson from | 51:46 |
Grace University Church. | 51:47 | |
I'm a pretty extemporaneous thinker, | 51:52 | |
or | 51:55 | |
verbalizer and what popped into my head | 51:56 | |
was a story I hadn't really even | 52:00 | |
thought about forever I don't think. | 52:02 | |
I was probably not quite four years old, | 52:08 | |
or just four years old, | 52:10 | |
got up one morning. | 52:13 | |
Our house was on my | 52:15 | |
great uncle's truck farm. | 52:16 | |
There were cabbages in the back of us, | 52:18 | |
and strawberries out here. | 52:19 | |
I went to the window, | 52:22 | |
and there were people | 52:23 | |
picking strawberries, | 52:25 | |
and the people picking strawberries | 52:27 | |
had children and I ran to my mom, | 52:29 | |
and said that I wanted to get dressed, | 52:31 | |
and I wanted to get out and play, | 52:33 | |
and she said over my dead body. | 52:34 | |
I knew she was wrong. | 52:38 | |
For a long time there was a motto | 52:46 | |
on a bumper sticker Question Authority. | 52:48 | |
One of the women's groups at | 52:52 | |
Union Lu gave me that T-shirt, | 52:56 | |
and I had a bumper sticker | 52:58 | |
on my car for a long time. | 53:00 | |
I think that's always | 53:02 | |
been a core for me. | 53:03 | |
so then I've also been accused | 53:06 | |
of the fact that I have 30 pounds, | 53:08 | |
and I probably do. | 53:10 | |
I think, basically, there's a whole | 53:14 | |
lot of stuff I've acted | 53:17 | |
as though I believe, | 53:19 | |
but I have never believed. | 53:20 | |
- | Will you say some more about that? | 53:22 |
- | Well, I don't believe in God, | 53:24 |
and I don't think I ever have, | 53:28 | |
but I | 53:31 | |
acted as though I did. | 53:35 | |
The question at the retreat | 53:39 | |
about what do you pretend? | 53:41 | |
- | Yes. | 53:43 |
- | What was her name? | 53:49 |
A lay woman in the Lutheran Church | 53:52 | |
she was at Reimagining | 53:54 | |
presented at Reimagining | 53:55 | |
had an aneurysm | 53:57 | |
has not functioned for a long time | 54:00 | |
Elizabeth (mumbles) | 54:02 | |
- | Oh yes, okay. | 54:04 |
- | Elizabeth said to a group of us | 54:06 |
gathered at that first Reimagining | 54:07 | |
Lutheran standing in a room | 54:09 | |
that many of us were doing | 54:11 | |
what we were doing because | 54:13 | |
there were no other options | 54:16 | |
for us to do this kind of work. | 54:18 | |
It was a period of time | 54:22 | |
in human history. | 54:23 | |
I look back at my own education, | 54:25 | |
and if I had known | 54:27 | |
that I could have been | 54:28 | |
dean of students, | 54:32 | |
or vice-provost for | 54:34 | |
equity and diversity. | 54:37 | |
There's so many things that exist now, | 54:39 | |
but the church allowed me | 54:44 | |
to do this programming, | 54:46 | |
and hang out with kids, | 54:48 | |
and do all this stuff | 54:49 | |
that didn't seem to me | 54:53 | |
would be very fun to do | 54:55 | |
if I were teaching. | 54:57 | |
- | Yes. | 54:58 |
- | That was the only other option. | 54:58 |
- | Do you think you were aware | 55:01 |
the whole time | 55:03 | |
that you didn't believe in God, | 55:05 | |
or did this realization come later? | 55:07 | |
How did that? | 55:09 | |
- | No, I think I've known it all. | 55:10 |
I think I have put myself | 55:12 | |
through paces to try to | 55:14 | |
put myself somewhere | 55:17 | |
where something would happen so that | 55:20 | |
it would become clear to me. | 55:24 | |
Something tangible would happen, | 55:28 | |
so that I could believe. | 55:30 | |
I was raised in the Augustana Church, | 55:32 | |
and we did things like every youth | 55:34 | |
event there was a consecration service, | 55:36 | |
and there was | 55:38 | |
much more touchy-feely, | 55:40 | |
but when all that | 55:43 | |
emotional stuff was kind of programmed | 55:45 | |
to make things happen | 55:49 | |
it never happened to me. | 55:50 | |
I was always the one sitting there going | 55:52 | |
what is wrong with me? | 55:53 | |
It was always more | 55:58 | |
a realization of something | 56:02 | |
that was important to me | 56:05 | |
almost always happened | 56:08 | |
in a conversation with somebody else, or | 56:09 | |
a small group or something. | 56:13 | |
- | Was this stressful? | 56:15 |
Was it difficult to maintain that, | 56:17 | |
or were you able | 56:19 | |
to pretty much navigate that? | 56:19 | |
- | I think the last 10 years | 56:23 |
of Campus Ministry was the hardest. | 56:25 | |
I'm figuring out that it wasn't | 56:30 | |
so much about me it was about | 56:33 | |
what am I as an image of | 56:37 | |
the church | 56:42 | |
how am I being perceived, | 56:44 | |
and what is it that I'm perpetuating, | 56:46 | |
and then it was something | 56:48 | |
I don't believe in. | 56:49 | |
The personal message | 56:52 | |
that kept coming through to me | 56:54 | |
over and over and over again | 56:55 | |
is for some period of time in my life | 56:57 | |
I want to be known as Jerie. | 57:00 | |
I want people to talk to me | 57:04 | |
wanting to know who Jerie is, | 57:08 | |
or what Jerie's opinion is, | 57:10 | |
not, oh, you are Jerie comma, | 57:12 | |
Campus Minister. | 57:15 | |
There just comes a time when | 57:18 | |
you are part of that where people | 57:20 | |
cannot get rid of that | 57:24 | |
just cannot get rid of it, | 57:27 | |
and you can't say anything right. | 57:28 | |
Either you're too Left, or too Right. | 57:30 | |
- | Given that how did it feel to be | 57:35 |
part of Reimagining, | 57:37 | |
and plan these gatherings? | 57:39 | |
- | That's an interesting question | 57:45 |
because I think Reimagining drew me into | 57:46 | |
what I thought might be a new answer. | 57:50 | |
- | Say some more about that. | 57:53 |
- | That somehow this would make | 57:55 |
more sense to me than anything else, | 57:56 | |
and it would reframe the church, | 57:58 | |
it would reframe theology, | 58:01 | |
liturgy, and it would be believable. | 58:03 | |
- | Yes. | 58:06 |
- | It's nice, it was really nice | 58:08 |
like there are a lot of things | 58:10 | |
that I appreciated, but | 58:12 | |
it's still | 58:15 | |
outside of me. | 58:18 | |
When I started to be able | 58:22 | |
to be on campus more I mean, | 58:23 | |
the focus of my ministry | 58:25 | |
was much more on campus. | 58:27 | |
My colleagues were much more disturbed, | 58:31 | |
and Interfaith I was | 58:34 | |
for the last 10 years | 58:37 | |
I was pretty much the chair, | 58:38 | |
and the driver of our Interfaith group, | 58:40 | |
and my colleagues were really at Hello. | 58:44 | |
They weren't my Lutheran colleagues, | 58:46 | |
but I started to meet many people | 58:50 | |
on campus and get to know them more, | 58:52 | |
and get to know the fact that for them | 58:55 | |
it's kind of institutional grounding, | 59:00 | |
and something that they believed was | 59:02 | |
either something they'd left | 59:04 | |
a long time ago, | 59:05 | |
or never had been part of their lives. | 59:06 | |
My being campus minister | 59:12 | |
being there doing things | 59:15 | |
put me in a different light with them, | 59:17 | |
and either people wanted to talk to me, | 59:20 | |
or didn't want to talk to me. | 59:21 | |
It's just been an interesting thing | 59:27 | |
to come back to be included | 59:29 | |
as a staff member at the university. | 59:31 | |
Some people still remember me, | 59:35 | |
the pastor want me to come to something | 59:37 | |
because of my past, but | 59:40 | |
it just feels so much more | 59:46 | |
authentic to me. | 59:48 | |
- | Yes, yes. | 59:49 |
- | Just so much more authentic. | 59:50 |
- | Yeah. | 59:52 |
- | I don't know if the Interfaith thing, | 59:53 |
or if | 59:57 | |
there's a reframing | 59:59 | |
where we could be | 1:00:02 | |
different as a religious, | 1:00:06 | |
or spiritual entity, | 1:00:08 | |
but the older I get the more I doubt it. | 1:00:09 | |
I've been part of a core group | 1:00:13 | |
of people who helped to plan a course | 1:00:14 | |
that's being offered now | 1:00:16 | |
by the Center for Spirituality. | 1:00:18 | |
It's the first course ever offered to | 1:00:21 | |
undergrad students | 1:00:25 | |
at the University of Minnesota. | 1:00:26 | |
I've been racking my brains this morning | 1:00:28 | |
to try to remember | 1:00:30 | |
what the title of it is, and I can't. | 1:00:31 | |
My part of the planning for this thing | 1:00:36 | |
was to try to hold out | 1:00:38 | |
for the fact that we would | 1:00:41 | |
not use the word religion, | 1:00:43 | |
we would not use the word spiritual | 1:00:44 | |
unless someone, a student who uses that, | 1:00:47 | |
or brings it up, | 1:00:50 | |
but we would focus on talking | 1:00:52 | |
about meaning and purpose, | 1:00:53 | |
what motivates your life, | 1:00:55 | |
where do you find meaning, | 1:00:57 | |
where do you find purpose, so that | 1:00:58 | |
the students who are taking this | 1:01:01 | |
don't have to come from | 1:01:05 | |
a point of view of justifying | 1:01:06 | |
their own past or existence, | 1:01:10 | |
but maybe can include as they're | 1:01:13 | |
looking at this all the new things | 1:01:16 | |
that they're seeing by being | 1:01:18 | |
in a college campus that may, | 1:01:20 | |
or may not be more diverse | 1:01:23 | |
than where they came from. | 1:01:24 | |
The state of Minnesota | 1:01:27 | |
as well as the University of Minnesota | 1:01:29 | |
is not doing a very good job | 1:01:31 | |
of dealing with diversity, | 1:01:33 | |
so I kind of feel that | 1:01:38 | |
I have so much to gain | 1:01:41 | |
from every single conversation | 1:01:42 | |
I have with someone | 1:01:45 | |
who doesn't look like me, | 1:01:46 | |
who doesn't act like me, | 1:01:48 | |
who doesn't have the same background. | 1:01:49 | |
That's where I found | 1:01:53 | |
that freedom to do that. | 1:01:54 | |
The church for me, frankly, | 1:01:55 | |
was continuing to be this | 1:01:57 | |
kind of bastion of people who wanted | 1:02:00 | |
to come together to be reinforced in | 1:02:02 | |
like-mindedness, | 1:02:05 | |
or whatever the focus is | 1:02:08 | |
whether you want women's ordination, | 1:02:10 | |
or whether you want | 1:02:13 | |
gay and Lesbian people to be ordained, | 1:02:14 | |
or whether you want them to be married. | 1:02:16 | |
It still is a like-mindedness. | 1:02:19 | |
I coined this a long time ago. | 1:02:22 | |
I used to talk about blind | 1:02:25 | |
to the Lutheran church of the buts, | 1:02:27 | |
you know, we love everybody but. | 1:02:29 | |
- | Oh, yes. | 1:02:31 |
- | You say that publicly anyplace, | 1:02:32 |
and people smile and say | 1:02:34 | |
yes because they know it. | 1:02:37 | |
I think | 1:02:41 | |
we need to | 1:02:43 | |
go on to the | 1:02:45 | |
world of the what-ifs. | 1:02:47 | |
There's a third way, or a fourth, | 1:02:50 | |
or a fifth, or a sixth. | 1:02:52 | |
- | Is that what you would say, well, | 1:02:56 |
I'll bring Reimagining | 1:02:59 | |
into the conversation. | 1:03:00 | |
Is that what Reimagining means | 1:03:01 | |
to use that term? | 1:03:02 | |
What is your vision for the future? | 1:03:03 | |
What does the future look like? | 1:03:04 | |
How do we go ahead? | 1:03:07 | |
- | Well, I think, John and I | 1:03:08 |
created the Center for Spiritual Growth | 1:03:10 | |
for that very purpose. | 1:03:12 | |
It didn't go so well, | 1:03:14 | |
and part of that was economics. | 1:03:17 | |
Some writers have said that we're | 1:03:25 | |
in the in between time, | 1:03:26 | |
you know, where the past | 1:03:29 | |
doesn't make sense anymore. | 1:03:31 | |
The future in some ways | 1:03:35 | |
offers so many opportunities | 1:03:37 | |
that it's really hard to figure out | 1:03:39 | |
how to move there. | 1:03:41 | |
I guess if I were gonna preach | 1:03:47 | |
about this now I think I would | 1:03:49 | |
just tell people to relax. | 1:03:51 | |
I wrote a paper once on community | 1:03:57 | |
being something | 1:04:01 | |
that would believe | 1:04:02 | |
is about | 1:04:04 | |
utopia, euphoria | 1:04:07 | |
something that we're | 1:04:08 | |
trying to make happen | 1:04:10 | |
while we're not very willing to | 1:04:12 | |
be in the present moment | 1:04:14 | |
with what is happening. | 1:04:16 | |
I think present moment | 1:04:23 | |
is a really important thing | 1:04:27 | |
in paying attention | 1:04:30 | |
to what's going on now, | 1:04:32 | |
and what do I have to learn from | 1:04:33 | |
my neighbors over here who are Chinese. | 1:04:35 | |
Just have | 1:04:42 | |
no capacity to understand why | 1:04:44 | |
I have a Buddha in my garden. | 1:04:46 | |
You know what's that all about, | 1:04:51 | |
and some kind of understanding | 1:04:57 | |
of the fact that for many people | 1:04:59 | |
there is nothing that makes any sense | 1:05:01 | |
to them at all except the fact | 1:05:03 | |
that last night | 1:05:05 | |
they were sexually assaulted. | 1:05:06 | |
Maybe my experience has been | 1:05:13 | |
at the youth to be called in, | 1:05:16 | |
in situations where a person | 1:05:17 | |
in counseling in some agency on campuses | 1:05:20 | |
wanted to talk about | 1:05:23 | |
where is God in all this, | 1:05:27 | |
but that's rare, | 1:05:29 | |
and it's way afterthought. | 1:05:32 | |
It has very little to do | 1:05:37 | |
with the present moment. | 1:05:38 | |
I | 1:05:42 | |
don't know of | 1:05:44 | |
I've been there nine years now of | 1:05:46 | |
a hospital exam, | 1:05:49 | |
a SARS exam that's happened, | 1:05:50 | |
which, sometimes, can take hours | 1:05:52 | |
where a chaplain at the hospital | 1:05:54 | |
has ever walked in the room. | 1:05:57 | |
- | Really? | 1:05:58 |
Why do you think that is? | 1:06:00 | |
- | I don't know if they even think | 1:06:04 |
that that's important. | 1:06:07 | |
- | Yeah. | 1:06:08 |
- | Sometimes, often erring | 1:06:15 |
on the critical, you know, | 1:06:17 | |
the cup is half full rather than, | 1:06:19 | |
but somebody has to do that. | 1:06:23 | |
- | Well, and if you had to talk | 1:06:28 |
about the legacy of Reimagining | 1:06:30 | |
what would you say the legacy is | 1:06:32 | |
as we look back at those 10 years? | 1:06:34 | |
- | Well, maybe it's just as simple | 1:06:37 |
as the fact that it happened, you know, | 1:06:38 | |
there were forces in place, | 1:06:41 | |
and women all over the world | 1:06:45 | |
who, again, that was the amazing | 1:06:49 | |
thing to me, you know. | 1:06:52 | |
We so often just get this | 1:06:55 | |
feeling that we're the only ones | 1:06:57 | |
with people all over the world | 1:06:58 | |
who are thinking on the same channels. | 1:07:00 | |
It would be probably super interesting | 1:07:07 | |
to bring all the very | 1:07:10 | |
same people together, | 1:07:11 | |
and see what they would say. | 1:07:14 | |
- | Oh, interesting, yes. | 1:07:15 |
- | In this time what their story is, | 1:07:19 |
or where | 1:07:22 | |
they maybe hear what they're doing. | 1:07:24 | |
- | Do you mean the presenters, the people? | 1:07:26 |
Yeah, yeah, yeah. | 1:07:28 | |
One last major question. | 1:07:31 | |
Reimagining is working on a website. | 1:07:32 | |
Do you have any ideas about | 1:07:35 | |
what should be on it, | 1:07:37 | |
who would benefit from it, any ideas? | 1:07:38 | |
- | The only thing that comes to my head | 1:07:44 |
is the reason I read the minutes. | 1:07:45 | |
- | And that is? | 1:07:47 |
- | See whose there, | 1:07:49 |
what are they doing now, | 1:07:50 | |
whose alive. | 1:07:53 | |
- | Yes. | 1:07:55 |
- | Because 10 years is 10 years. | 1:07:57 |
- | Yeah. | 1:08:00 |
- | You know, and it's always sad. | 1:08:01 |
I was at Cheryl's funeral | 1:08:05 | |
for a memorial service. | 1:08:07 | |
Even to see the few people | 1:08:10 | |
who were there | 1:08:11 | |
they all look a little older. | 1:08:13 | |
- | But you still see | 1:08:22 |
Pam and Randy every month? | 1:08:22 | |
- | Uh-hmm. | 1:08:24 |
- | That's impressive. | 1:08:25 |
- | Every month and they tolerate me. | 1:08:26 |
- | Why do you say that? | 1:08:30 |
- | I think for most people | 1:08:36 |
who are part of my past | 1:08:37 | |
when I was part of the church | 1:08:40 | |
the fact that | 1:08:42 | |
I'm just not part | 1:08:44 | |
of any of that anymore. | 1:08:45 | |
One of my friends, Dorcas, used to say | 1:08:48 | |
her new mantra was | 1:08:51 | |
I don't know and I don't care | 1:08:53 | |
about a lot of that stuff | 1:08:57 | |
that's kind of my feeling because | 1:08:59 | |
there's so much rich stuff | 1:09:04 | |
going on and things that need attention | 1:09:07 | |
I just don't have the patience anymore. | 1:09:11 | |
If we start to talk theology, | 1:09:17 | |
you know, I kind of just want to say | 1:09:19 | |
could we talk about politics, | 1:09:23 | |
or something else. | 1:09:24 | |
They tolerate me, | 1:09:26 | |
but most of the people | 1:09:28 | |
who knew me well in the church | 1:09:30 | |
are not in touch at all. | 1:09:32 | |
- | Really, yeah, yeah. | 1:09:34 |
- | Not at all. | 1:09:36 |
There are some people | 1:09:40 | |
that I may see somewhere, | 1:09:41 | |
but I think there was probably | 1:09:45 | |
word out there sometime about | 1:09:47 | |
that the intern person who came | 1:09:52 | |
into Campus Ministry | 1:09:54 | |
we worked together for about a year | 1:09:56 | |
before I left called me unfaithful. | 1:09:58 | |
- | Really. | 1:10:00 |
- | So that the way in which | 1:10:01 |
I was doing ministry the fact | 1:10:03 | |
that I was on campus as much I was | 1:10:05 | |
didn't really justify it | 1:10:09 | |
because I thought | 1:10:11 | |
whether 5,000 | 1:10:13 | |
Lutherans, but they're not | 1:10:15 | |
in our worship on Sunday, only about 15, | 1:10:17 | |
maybe I should be somewhere | 1:10:20 | |
where the rest of them are, | 1:10:22 | |
but he called me unfaithful, and | 1:10:23 | |
so be it. | 1:10:29 | |
- | Does that bother you | 1:10:30 |
that you're not in touch | 1:10:30 | |
with those people anymore? | 1:10:32 | |
- | I think there's a sadness in me | 1:10:36 |
that the very same people | 1:10:40 | |
who preach unconditional love, you know, | 1:10:42 | |
somehow I've | 1:10:47 | |
stepped over a line, | 1:10:49 | |
and then maybe I've heard this | 1:10:52 | |
from a lot of people in retirement | 1:10:54 | |
that you kind of feel like | 1:10:56 | |
you drop into a big hole, | 1:10:58 | |
and everybody is so busy in their lives, | 1:10:59 | |
and it will probably happen | 1:11:01 | |
when I leave the U, too. | 1:11:02 | |
There will be a lot of people | 1:11:04 | |
I won't be in connection with anymore, | 1:11:05 | |
but sitting in a room | 1:11:07 | |
at the university | 1:11:09 | |
working with a team | 1:11:12 | |
of people in a professional | 1:11:15 | |
what's deemed a professional setting | 1:11:18 | |
is very different than a church. | 1:11:20 | |
I tell Katie my boss, | 1:11:22 | |
this every once in a while | 1:11:24 | |
if something went wrong | 1:11:25 | |
with us as a team | 1:11:27 | |
we'd close the doors go in a room, | 1:11:30 | |
and say we're gonna hash this out until | 1:11:32 | |
we figure out what's wrong, or what's | 1:11:36 | |
not going well, | 1:11:39 | |
no-holds-barred, well, in a university | 1:11:42 | |
setting you don't work the same thing | 1:11:45 | |
because people go to their supervisors | 1:11:47 | |
when something is going on. | 1:11:50 | |
You have to figure out | 1:11:51 | |
through all the channels | 1:11:53 | |
how that needs to happen | 1:11:55 | |
that the environment I'm in now | 1:11:57 | |
certainly isn't perfect, | 1:11:59 | |
but the expectations of people | 1:12:01 | |
with whom you had those relationships, | 1:12:03 | |
and then suddenly | 1:12:06 | |
it's not there anymore. | 1:12:08 | |
I know part of it has to do | 1:12:11 | |
with the fact that John and I | 1:12:12 | |
have lived together for | 1:12:14 | |
20 or more years. | 1:12:18 | |
If anybody had asked me directly | 1:12:20 | |
I would never lied about it, | 1:12:24 | |
or denied it, | 1:12:26 | |
but I was never able to include him | 1:12:28 | |
in anything nor did anyone ever | 1:12:33 | |
engage me in conversation about the fact | 1:12:35 | |
might there be some good reasons | 1:12:37 | |
about why you're doing this. | 1:12:38 | |
- | So just to clarify where you said | 1:12:43 |
where was the environment | 1:12:44 | |
where you close the door, | 1:12:46 | |
and you hash it all out? | 1:12:47 | |
- | In the church. | 1:12:50 |
- | In the church, okay. | 1:12:51 |
- | Yeah, we're a team, | 1:12:52 |
and we're committed to this work | 1:12:54 | |
with students now. | 1:12:55 | |
- | Right. | 1:12:56 |
- | To figure out how to do this, | 1:12:57 |
though a hierarchy existed | 1:13:01 | |
it was a pretty soft hierarchy. | 1:13:03 | |
- | Jerie, this has been wonderful, | 1:13:08 |
and thought-provoking. | 1:13:10 | |
Is there anything we haven't discussed | 1:13:11 | |
that you would like to say | 1:13:13 | |
that you think is important? | 1:13:14 | |
- | I don't, and I think part of | 1:13:20 |
moving away from wherever you've been | 1:13:25 | |
no matter what it is | 1:13:27 | |
I never mean who or what I am | 1:13:29 | |
to be or sound as judgment of | 1:13:34 | |
what other people may find important | 1:13:37 | |
in their lives | 1:13:41 | |
because very similar things | 1:13:44 | |
were important to me at one time. | 1:13:46 | |
Sometimes, especially, within the church | 1:13:50 | |
it seems to me the word | 1:13:53 | |
we're most afraid of is evolution. | 1:13:54 | |
We kind of play around with | 1:13:57 | |
more progressive churches saying, | 1:14:00 | |
of course, we're okay with that, | 1:14:02 | |
and those weird people over there, | 1:14:03 | |
but I think we're really kind of afraid | 1:14:06 | |
of moving on | 1:14:10 | |
not straight movement, | 1:14:15 | |
there is a spiral thing | 1:14:18 | |
that talks about human development, | 1:14:19 | |
but it's more of a rolling big stone | 1:14:22 | |
that, you know, gets an impediment | 1:14:26 | |
in it every once in a while, | 1:14:28 | |
and maybe that's a thoughtful impediment | 1:14:30 | |
where we can stop for a while, | 1:14:33 | |
and think about what's happening, | 1:14:35 | |
but things are changing, | 1:14:36 | |
and what has worked in the past | 1:14:38 | |
in every single institution | 1:14:42 | |
we're willing to say, you know, | 1:14:44 | |
we wouldn't be doing health care | 1:14:46 | |
the same way we're doing it, | 1:14:48 | |
but pretty much | 1:14:50 | |
we kind of step out for a little bit, | 1:14:53 | |
but it all reverts again | 1:14:55 | |
to what it is that we know, | 1:14:57 | |
and reading the Reimagining minutes, | 1:15:00 | |
and seeing it recorded in there | 1:15:02 | |
that people still think that | 1:15:05 | |
language is a problem in the church | 1:15:09 | |
just dumbfounds me, | 1:15:11 | |
you know, even the news now | 1:15:16 | |
pays attention | 1:15:22 | |
to how it is that | 1:15:24 | |
they talk about women and men together. | 1:15:27 | |
It should not be tolerated, | 1:15:37 | |
so that's where I would make a judgment, | 1:15:40 | |
but | 1:15:44 | |
most of the people who even | 1:15:49 | |
will say to me at the U, | 1:15:51 | |
you know, once I was a Lutheran, | 1:15:53 | |
or went to church, or something, | 1:15:56 | |
I never understood | 1:15:58 | |
much of what was going on there | 1:16:00 | |
but the community was important | 1:16:01 | |
whether it was in my town or where, | 1:16:03 | |
and maybe I'll do that again | 1:16:05 | |
because I kind of would like | 1:16:07 | |
to find that community. | 1:16:08 | |
That's something about | 1:16:12 | |
leaving the responsibility | 1:16:16 | |
of creating that community | 1:16:18 | |
to someone else | 1:16:19 | |
where maybe all of us need to face | 1:16:21 | |
how it is that | 1:16:24 | |
where it is that we have the ability | 1:16:26 | |
to either do that, | 1:16:28 | |
or we've already have done it, | 1:16:29 | |
we don't recognize it. | 1:16:30 | |
- | What do you mean | 1:16:33 |
we've already done it, | 1:16:34 | |
and we don't recognize it? | 1:16:35 | |
- | I think a lot of people make fun | 1:16:39 |
of Christians who go to church | 1:16:42 | |
on Easter and Christmas, | 1:16:44 | |
but that's when they see | 1:16:46 | |
their families, too, | 1:16:47 | |
or know their neighbors. | 1:16:52 | |
Catholics and talking about parishes | 1:16:56 | |
is not such a dumb idea, | 1:16:59 | |
but maybe the parish needs to be | 1:17:01 | |
in your neighborhood rather than | 1:17:03 | |
just the Catholic Center in (mumbles) | 1:17:04 | |
I just think that | 1:17:09 | |
taking responsibility | 1:17:13 | |
for oneself is a big job. | 1:17:14 | |
- | Yes. | 1:17:16 |
- | Most of the time we kind of | 1:17:19 |
look for the easy way out | 1:17:20 | |
because life continues to be | 1:17:22 | |
we continue to make life | 1:17:24 | |
as complicated as we possibly can. | 1:17:26 | |
Then my next birthday I'll be 72, | 1:17:30 | |
and I look back and I think, | 1:17:34 | |
and I listen to a lot of conversation | 1:17:37 | |
about wellness and balance life balance, | 1:17:40 | |
and I think, well, | 1:17:44 | |
if I had 72 more years, | 1:17:44 | |
I could go back | 1:17:46 | |
I would just do everything I could, | 1:17:47 | |
and not think about whether this was | 1:17:50 | |
too much, or too little | 1:17:55 | |
it just all goes so fast. | 1:17:57 | |
It just goes so fast. | 1:18:00 | |
Every opportunity | 1:18:04 | |
is important. | 1:18:07 | |
- | I just want to hear a little bit more | 1:18:10 |
about you wouldn't think about | 1:18:12 | |
whether this was too much, | 1:18:13 | |
or too little what did that mean? | 1:18:14 | |
What do you mean by that? | 1:18:16 | |
- | With the balance. | 1:18:17 |
I think the balance language | 1:18:18 | |
drives me crazy. | 1:18:21 | |
Boundaries language drives me crazy. | 1:18:22 | |
- | Why is that? | 1:18:24 |
- | It seems to me, | 1:18:26 |
and I've done this myself | 1:18:27 | |
you spend so much time | 1:18:29 | |
thinking about controlling, | 1:18:31 | |
and figuring out, you know, | 1:18:34 | |
how much sleep am I gonna get, | 1:18:39 | |
or what am I eating, | 1:18:41 | |
and then in the long run | 1:18:43 | |
it doesn't make any difference. | 1:18:44 | |
We're all in this journey towards death, | 1:18:46 | |
all of us, | 1:18:50 | |
and people take really good care | 1:18:53 | |
of their bodies, | 1:18:55 | |
and drop dead the next day at 59. | 1:18:56 | |
We just don't have control over that. | 1:19:00 | |
I don't know. | 1:19:07 | |
I wrote a poem. | 1:19:09 | |
I think the catalyst was one of | 1:19:12 | |
our last retreats at CSG, | 1:19:15 | |
and then Roberta Gibbons | 1:19:18 | |
who was the assistant director at Aurora | 1:19:19 | |
when I started who now teaches | 1:19:22 | |
at Metro State asked me one time | 1:19:24 | |
they hadn't been part of any kind | 1:19:28 | |
of organized institutional church | 1:19:31 | |
as a family and her oldest | 1:19:34 | |
was like 12 or 13, | 1:19:37 | |
and she was saying should he | 1:19:39 | |
be some place for confirmation? | 1:19:41 | |
She was looking at the confirmation | 1:19:44 | |
program at Unity | 1:19:45 | |
because they do such a great job | 1:19:47 | |
of sex education, | 1:19:50 | |
and I think Nate did do that, | 1:19:52 | |
but I don't know | 1:19:54 | |
what there is a family, | 1:19:55 | |
but she was just questioning me, | 1:19:58 | |
so I pulled out this poem, | 1:20:00 | |
and it was I believe in awed. | 1:20:01 | |
- | Awed, do you remember what else? | 1:20:05 |
That sounds great. | 1:20:07 | |
- | It's just a whole bunch | 1:20:08 |
of reflections about what has | 1:20:09 | |
brought awe to my life. | 1:20:13 | |
It's far broader than | 1:20:18 | |
my Norwegian grandparents who taught me | 1:20:25 | |
all the verses to Holy, Holy, Holy, | 1:20:28 | |
probably | 1:20:31 | |
before I could breathe, | 1:20:34 | |
or my parents understanding of life. | 1:20:39 | |
Some of the filters in my own life | 1:20:46 | |
have been to say no that isn't, this is | 1:20:48 | |
that dualism. | 1:20:54 | |
I think it's just really important | 1:20:58 | |
to have your breath taken away by | 1:21:00 | |
either something that's so beautiful, | 1:21:03 | |
or so horrible | 1:21:04 | |
that it causes you not only to wonder, | 1:21:07 | |
but to act. | 1:21:11 | |
- | That sounds like a great | 1:21:14 |
place to stop. | 1:21:15 | |
I believe in awe. | 1:21:16 | |
Thank you so much, Jerie, thank you. | 1:21:17 |