Mahle, Katherine

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-	Well Kathy, thank you so much for doing this	0:01
	and if I could just get some background information.	0:03
-	Okay.	0:05
-	If you could first say your name.	0:06
-	My name is Katherine or Kathy Austin Mahle.	0:07
-	Wonderful.	0:11
	And are you lay or clergy?	0:13
-	I'm clergy.	0:14
-	Good.	0:15
	And your religious tradition is?	0:15
-	The United Methodist.	0:17
-	Wonderful!	0:18
	Kathy when and where were you born?	0:20
-	I was born in Norwich, New York.	0:22
-	Hmm!	0:26
-	In 1945.	0:27
-	Okay, wonderful.	0:28
	Where is Norwich?	0:30
-	It's outside of New York City,	0:34
	sort of northwest of New York City,	0:37
	south of Albany.	0:40
	It's south of Cooperstown.	0:42
-	Okay!	0:44
-	You know where Cooperstown is?	0:45
-	Yes, yes, that's helpful!	0:46
	That's good!	0:46
	Where did you go to school?	0:47
	Graduate or Divinity School?	0:49
-	I am a graduate of Deloitte College in Wisconsin.	0:51
	And I am also a graduate of United Theological Seminary	0:55
	of the Twin Cities.	1:01
	And I graduated in 1978.	1:02
-	Mm hmm.	1:04
	Thank you.	1:05
	What kind of work or ministry were you doing	1:07
	at the time of Reimagining?	1:09
-	At the time of Reimagining?	1:11
	I was serving as the Lead Pastor	1:13
	at Hamlin United Methodist Church.	1:16
	And I was on the Board of the Greater Minneapolis	1:19
	Council of Churches.	1:22
-	Oh, okay, alright.	1:24
	And after Reimagining what kind of work	1:25
	or ministry have you done since then?	1:28
-	I was at Hamlin until 1997.	1:31
-	Okay.	1:36
-	At which time I became a District Superintendent	1:37
	for the Old Metro West District	1:39
	of the United Methodist Church in Minnesota.	1:41
-	Great, thank you, thank you.	1:44
	Now how and when did you first become aware of	1:48
	feminist theology?	1:49
-	Well it would have been in Seminary.	1:52
	And I started Seminary in 1974 so.	1:54
-	Mm.	1:57
	Do you remember how you reacted to it at that time?	1:58
	What you thought of it?	2:01
-	Hmm?	2:05
	Well it made sense (laughs).	2:07
	I think it was pretty easy for me to adopt	2:15
	and understand about inclusive language.	2:18
	That was sort of the first place	2:22
	that I was confronted with it, in Seminary.	2:24
-	Yeah.	2:28
-	And it was an exciting time.	2:29
	There were women going into ministry in larger numbers.	2:33
-	Mm hmm.	2:37
-	And started reading I don't know,	2:38
	all kinds of books (laughs).	2:52
-	Yeah, yeah, yeah.	2:55
	One other question before we move on,	2:58
	what led you to Seminary into Ministry?	3:00
-	Well the easy answer is a call.	3:04
-	Yes.	3:07
-	The more difficult answer is finding a place	3:09
	to be in ministry and living out of that call.	3:18
	The call came when I was in high school.	3:26
-	Really?	3:28
-	And I knew that I wanted to work in a church setting	3:29
	but I didn't have any role models and so	3:32
	when I was in college I majored in Religious Studies	3:41
	and Sociology.	3:47
	I thought I would go to McCormick Seminary	3:49
	and get a degree there and they had an affiliate program	3:52
	with the University of Chicago in Social Work.	3:56
	And so I was going to go out and save the world	3:59
	and work at the West Side Christian Parrish (laughs).	4:01
-	Yeah!	4:05
	What happened?	4:06
-	I got married!	4:07
-	(laughs)	4:08
-	This is 1967.	4:09
-	Yes.	4:11
-	So, but we need to stop for just a minute.	4:12
-	Sure.	4:14
-	We're doing an interview.	4:16

-	Okay.	0:04
-	So, I got married.	0:04
-	Yes, that's where we're leaving off, go ahead, yes.	0:06
-	Steve did graduate work at Penn State,	0:11
	and they didn't have a school of social work,	0:14
	so, you know, back in those days you just followed	0:16
	where your husband went.	0:19
	That led us to the US army,	0:22
	and he was stationed at the Manned Spacecraft Center	0:25
	for three years, and this was during Vietnam.	0:30
-	Wow.	0:32
-	I volunteered at the...	0:35
	They had, like, a thrift shop on the airbase.	0:41
	That's what I did along with having a child.	0:48
	And then when we moved to Minnesota	0:54
	I started doing volunteer work at YES,	0:58
	and the guy that was executive director	1:01
	suggested that maybe I'd like to take some	1:04
	courses at United and that's how I got out to United.	1:07
-	Really? What is YES?	1:10
-	Youth Emergency Service, it was a telephone hotline.	1:11
-	Really?	1:15
	Okay.	1:16
	Fascinating, okay, and then when you went to United,	1:17
	just to finish this off, did you know at that time	1:21
	you were going to be a pastor?	1:23
-	No, I figured I'd go into counseling,	1:25
	and work in a church related setting.	1:28
-	And did you go into the ordained ministry	1:32
	from United right after you graduated?	1:35
-	Mmhm, but in the meantime I figured out that	1:38
	I could be a pastor.	1:40
	I didn't have any role models,	1:42
	but there were women when I got to seminary	1:44
	that were actually out doing internships,	1:47
	and doing ministry, so I realized, oh, I can do this.	1:51
-	Yeah, oh, that's wonderful.	1:55
	I'm so glad you did, Cathy.	1:57
	So, talking about the re-imagining community,	2:00
	you played a central role it this,	2:02
	so if you could talk some about	2:05
	how you first got involved and what role you played	2:08
	in the re-imagining community.	2:10
-	Well, we	2:12
	had a committee to implement the Ecumenical Decade	2:16
	for women from the World Council of Churches,	2:20
	and the re-imagining event grew out of	2:28
	the planning that we were doing around that.	2:30
-	When you say, we, who was that again?	2:33
-	Well, whoever was on this committee.	2:35
	Sally Hill was the staff person.	2:38
	I don't know who all.	2:44
	It's just a blur of faces.	2:47
	Mary Gates was probably involved in that.	2:50
-	How did you get on the committee?	2:53
-	I was on the board of the Greater Minneapolis	2:58
	Council of Churches,	3:00
	and I had	3:02
	been pretty heavily involved there.	3:04
	I had served on the search committee	3:08
	that brought Gary Ryerson as the executive director,	3:10
	and I was also on the search committee	3:15
	for the Minnesota Council of Churches	3:17
	when Page Hemmerlin was hired.	3:19
	So, I was pretty involved ecumenically.	3:22
	And I also chaired the council at some point,	3:25
	but I'm not remembering the dates for that.	3:29
-	Not surprising, it's all been a long time.	3:32
	What do you remember about that process of planning	3:34
	the re-imagining conference?	3:38
	What was that like?	3:40
-	Planning the conference?	3:41
	Well, it was very collaborative.	3:47
	There had been a retreat, which I was not at	3:49
	where the idea for re-imagining came out of that.	3:52
	Sally Hill, Marianne Lundy,	3:58
	Gerry Smith, maybe,	4:05
	from the University of Minnesota.	4:07
	There were a number of women	4:09
	who had been on this committee	4:13
	that were at that retreat, and it was out of that that	4:16
	the start of the planning came forth.	4:21
	Some place along the line they asked me to chair,	4:30
	and Mary Kay'll be vice chair, and we quickly	4:33
	decided that every committee	4:37
	would have both a clergy person and a layperson	4:39
	as co-chairs.	4:43
-	I didn't realize that, okay.	4:45
-	Everything that we did had	4:47
	clergy and lay.	4:51
-	Okay, 'cause at that point Mary Kay was lay.	4:53
-	Right, Mary Kay was lay.	4:55
-	That's right, okay.	4:57
-	We did the planning.	5:01
-	How was it being co-chair?	5:08
-	Well, it worked out just fine, Mary Kay and I	5:10
	got along just well.	5:12
	We must have started planning in the late 80s.	5:14
	89 maybe,	5:18
	or 90.	5:20
	Maybe 90.	5:22
	And I took a year off	5:23
	some place along the line.	5:28
	I took time off, I don't know if it was a full year,	5:31
	and the planning went on,	5:34
	and then Mary Kay started seminary,	5:36
	and she took time off.	5:38
	It just kept going.	5:43
-	Yes, but what I've heard,	5:45
	it really grew, the plans for the conference.	5:47
	It started out and it kept getting bigger.	5:50
	Is that what you recall?	5:53
	What did that feel like?	5:55
-	Well, some of it was the result of	5:59
	the money that we got from the Presbyterian Church.	6:03
	Now, I don't know.	6:06
	Marianne and Sally were instrumental in	6:10
	getting that money.	6:14
	There was a large capital campaign that they were doing.	6:15
	Fundraising campaign.	6:18
	The Ecumenical Decade had been targeted as	6:21
	the recipient of some of that money,	6:25
	and so that's where...	6:27
	And once we got those funding,	6:29
	I think that's when it moved to be a much more	6:35
	expansive event,	6:41
	and I think that the movement to become bigger	6:45
	happened during that period of time that I was away,	6:48
	but included in that was	6:53
	since it was part of the World Council of Churches	6:56
	to really capitalize on the Ecumenical Decade	7:00
	for churches in solidarity with women worldwide,	7:05
	and that's when it become international,	7:10
	and then of course we had to deal with all the	7:12
	getting scholarships,	7:15
	and getting people here from	7:17
	around the world.	7:20
-	It was an amazing undertaking, it really is.	7:22
-	A lot of credit goes to Sally	7:25
	for kind of spearheading this,	7:29
	and she was the staff person, so she had	7:32
	the time to do the work that needed to be done.	7:35
-	Yeah, I've read your essay In Remembering Re-Imagining,	7:39
	but if you could say something about what that	7:42
	93 conference, what the experience was like for you.	7:44
-	Well, I think I said that I attended a totally	7:47
	different conference than everybody else.	7:51
-	You did.	7:53
-	Because we were from the get-go	7:55
	of the event	7:58
	we were concerned with making sure that registration	8:03
	was flowing and the rooms were set up,	8:06
	and all of sort of the administrative kinds of things	8:09
	that go into running a big conference.	8:13
	I mean, there were what?	8:16
-	Over 2,000, yes.	8:18
-	Women and some men	8:21
	that were there,	8:22
	and as the weekend unfolded there were various	8:28
	other kinds of things that were going on	8:33
	behind the scenes we needed to care for and think about.	8:35
-	Do you remember what any of those in particular?	8:40
-	Well, the biggest one was a desire by	8:44
	the lesbian women to have	8:49
	some words and time on the podium,	8:52
	which had not been planned, of course.	8:56
	And so we had to call a meeting of	9:05
	the planning team, I don't remember what we called ourselves	9:07
	maybe it was coordinating council, but I think that	9:12
	came later	9:15
	after we established the community,	9:16
	to talk about what that impact would be.	9:23
-	Was that a difficult decision?	9:28
-	It was.	9:30
	Because we knew that there were	9:32
	people from the various conservative branches	9:36
	of our respective denominations that were present,	9:40
	and were wanting to find negative things upon	9:44
	what we were doing.	9:46
-	But decided to go ahead with it anyway?	9:49
-	Right.	9:51
	Besides, probably couldn't stop it.	9:53
	That might not be exactly true.	9:56
	They did want to have out approval to do that.	10:01
-	You were able to attend probably some of the plenary	10:07
	sessions that may been about it.	10:10
	Are there any moments for you, I know it's been a while,	10:11
	but any moments that particularly stand out for you?	10:14
-	For almost all of the liturgy that we did,	10:22
	we all had roles, Mary Kay and I had roles.	10:28
	Other people on the committee had roles.	10:32
	So, we were actually leading the worship,	10:37
	and the experience.	10:41
	I remember Jane loves presentation,	10:48
	and talking about healing from the outside	10:52
	until the outside was healed, the inside never	10:56
	would be healed,	10:59
	which was an image that I've carried with me	11:01
	for a long time.	11:03
-	Could you just say a little bit about why that	11:08
	image really strikes you?	11:10
-	Well, one of the things that we struggled with	11:17
	as a planning committee was	11:18
	the fact that we were all white women,	11:25
	or predominantly white women,	11:28
	and how do we have participation from	11:31
	and hear other voices.	11:36
	I think that influenced	11:40
	our selection of speakers as we went along.	11:43
	But I've always had, well, as I said,	11:48
	I'm just gonna go to the West Side Christian Parish,	11:51
	and heal the world or something.	11:54
	But I've always had a	11:57
	commitment to social justice,	12:00
	and thinking about marginalized.	12:02
	That just really struck me that	12:07
	the flow of power was different.	12:10
	The power needed to go out to heal	12:14
	the margins	12:18
	before we could really all live centered lives.	12:22
-	Mmhm, I have to ask a question, when you talked about	12:29
	leading the liturgy, I'm just wondering,	12:32
	you know, you had been involved in planning and everything,	12:34
	do you remember what it was like to be up there	12:36
	and leading the liturgy?	12:38
	Was it what you anticipated?	12:40
	How did it feel to be doing that?	12:41
-	Well, it was pretty exhilarating.	12:44
	Madilyn had it very well-scripted.	12:49
	All we needed to do was	12:54
	follow what was written.	13:00
	It was scripted and choreographed.	13:02
	I mean it was not just a static liturgy.	13:05
	We were in different places around the room.	13:08
-	Yeah, yeah.	13:12
	Talk about the backlash.	13:17
	First of all, did it affect you personally?	13:20
-	Only in so far as I was named	13:22
	in a number of the publications	13:26
	from Good News,	13:30
	and I continued.	13:31
	I mean it wasn't just the one shot deal or whatever.	13:33
	You know, every once in a while when they needed	13:39
	to raise money.	13:41
	Oh, okay.	13:43
-	Yeah, how did you deal with that?	13:46
-	Oh, I just ignored it,	13:48
	but I was far enough away removed,	13:51
	and in our system, you know, you're appointed,	13:54
	and they can't take your job away from you,	13:58
	which gave a lot of United Methodist women	14:02
	a lot of security.	14:06
-	That's a good point, yeah.	14:10
	How did you react to what was happening to other people?	14:14
-	I remember thinking, you gotta be kidding.	14:23
-	Really? Yeah.	14:26
-	Where is this coming from?	14:28
	It's kinda like today.	14:30
	Donald Trump folks.	14:32
	You gotta be kidding.	14:33
	This is craziness,	14:35
	but it's the same people, unfortunately.	14:37
-	You hadn't anticipated that it would be like this?	14:41
-	No, I don't think any of us.	14:45
	We knew that we might get a little flack.	14:48
	Never to the extent	14:51
	that it happened.	14:59
	Back to your question about	15:01
	what do you remember from the conference,	15:03
	I can't say her name.	15:07
	I don't know whether she was Korean or Chinese.	15:14
	(speaking in foreign language)	15:17
	And bite the apple.	15:20
	And so, I have a couple of apples	15:22
	that still sit on my desk.	15:25
-	Do you?	15:27
-	Right.	15:28
-	What about that was so powerful to you?	15:29
-	Well, it was just being audacious,	15:32
	and doing what needed to be done,	15:35
	and that it would be okay.	15:40
-	I have ask	15:42
	for just a minute, you know, there was Sophia,	15:44
	there was the Milk and Honey Ritual.	15:46
	Do you remember any particular reactions to that	15:48
	when it occurred?	15:51
-	When it occurred?	15:53
-	Yeah, or afterwards.	15:54
-	Well, afterwards the conservatives	15:57
	glommed onto the Milk and Honey, saying this was communion.	16:02
	Well, we had worked so hard not to have it be communion	16:05
	because we knew	16:09
	that what we were planning, not everyone would be able	16:14
	to feel comfortable in taking communion,	16:17
	and so we designed a ritual	16:21
	that we felt would be inclusive	16:23
	of all the denominations,	16:27
	and it's very scripturally based in the Old Testament.	16:30
	So, I think we anticipated that that might	16:40
	raise some heckles along the way.	16:44
	Maybe moreso from the Theologians that were there	16:49
	than those of all that were doing sort of	16:52
	the administrative kinds of things.	16:53
-	How do you account for the backlash?	16:58
-	I think that	17:04
	people fear change.	17:08
	There were lots of different images	17:12
	of God presented, different understandings of church	17:15
	challenging the institutional church as it existed	17:19
	then and exist now.	17:23
	In various denominations, there were at that time	17:33
	rumblings of women who wanted to be heard,	17:39
	so this became a place where	17:44
	that voice could come together,	17:46
	and be strong.	17:50
	And that was very threatening,	17:51
	and people who had not done their biblical work	17:53
	didn't understand Sophia.	17:58
	Didn't understand	18:01
	the feminine part of God had been	18:06
	written out of theology,	18:13
	and even though it was there biblically	18:16
	it had been interpreted in such a way that	18:21
	it was all masculine.	18:23
	So, that was very threatening	18:26
	to the traditionalists, it's still threatening.	18:28
	Language is an interesting piece,	18:32
	and I think we've gone way back,	18:35
	taken lots of steps backwards	18:38
	in the use of inclusive language.	18:41
	Even for people,	18:43
	that's the other piece that has	18:45
	been challenging.	18:49
	So, the climate was ready to have	18:50
	people speak out,	18:56
	and be upset about what was going on.	18:59
-	Were you involved in the formation of the community	19:04
	after the backlash?	19:06
-	Mmhm.	19:07
-	Thought you were.
	Could you say about how that happened?	19:08
	How was that decision made?	19:12
-	It wasn't too long after the conference was over,	19:16
	and we may have already set a meeting	19:19
	to come together to debrief what had happened,	19:23
	and to do an evaluation.	19:26
	We kept meeting because the stories kept coming in.	19:31
	We decided, it was a joint decision, that we needed	19:36
	to be there to support the women,	19:40
	especially the women that were losing their jobs,	19:43
	and were being so amazingly challenged	19:46
	by their denominations.	19:52
-	When you said stories coming in, is that the kind	19:54
	of stories you mean?	19:56
-	Yeah.	19:58
-	And so, what kind of role did you play then	20:00
	after the community was formed?	20:04
-	Mary Kay and I continued to chair	20:06
	the coordinating council, that may have been	20:11
	the name of the planning team.	20:15
	Boy, after all these years you just forget.	20:20
-	I know, I know.	20:23
-	As you get older, you forget, but anyway,	20:24
	it just seemed logical that we would continue	20:29
	in leadership.	20:32
	We also clear that we weren't gonna do it,	20:33
	that leadership needed to be shared,	20:38
	and that was one of the fundamental	20:40
	tenants that we had as we set up the planning team	20:44
	that this was	20:48
	a coordinated event.	20:52
	We probably did call ourselves the coordinating council.	20:54
	We divided up the task that needed to be done,	21:02
	getting a 501 C3,	21:04
	and getting the state incorporation,	21:07
	doing the various steps	21:11
	financially that needed to be set up.	21:14
	And Nancy and Verna King and Pam Jurin	21:18
	were all part of the founding	21:25
	group, and Sally, of course.	21:28
-	And the publications started very early on.	21:31
-	Right, and that was Nancy and Pam	21:34
	that did that.	21:37
-	How long did you stay involved	21:39
	in the community, do you remember?	21:42
-	I don't know.	21:44
	I was thinking about that as I was looking at	21:46
	your questions.	21:48
	I don't remember.	21:50
	It would have been probably two to three years, maybe.	21:52
	Then, I think the demands of the local church	21:59
	were such that I needed to step away,	22:02
	and then in 97,	22:06
	I was appointed as a district superintendent,	22:09
	and our son became quite ill and died.	22:11
	So, there was all that going on in 97.	22:16
	So, some of the events prior	22:19
	to that, I think I had moved away from Re-Imagining.	22:23
	When we were talking earlier, and I said I don't	22:29
	remember how many conferences there were,	22:32
	I know that Mary Kay and I had leadership,	22:36
	speaking kinds of parts in the second one,	22:42
	worked with Rita Nakashima-Brock a lot on that	22:47
	second one.	22:50
	Then, it all becomes fuzzy.	22:57
	The one that they did	23:01
	on power,	23:04
	and I don't know what year that was, but anyway...	23:06
-	Offhand, I don't either.	23:09
-	I was just there.	23:11
	I think was it Letty Russell?	23:16
	Was she was the speaker?	23:18
-	Yes.	23:19
-	Alice Walker's daughter.	23:22
-	Rebecca Walker.	23:23
-	Right, and it was so clear that Letty Russell	23:24
	had not moved on,	23:27
	and that the world had moved on even in that short	23:29
	period of time, and she couldn't hear.	23:32
-	Could be possibly be Mary Daily	23:36
	that you're thinking about?	23:38
-	Maybe it was Mary Daily.	23:39
-	Yeah, it was Mary Daily and Rebecca Walker	23:40
	who were together.	23:42
-	Yeah, Mary Daily.	23:43
	Whatever.	23:44
	One of the pioneers.	23:46
	Yeah, 'cause Letty Russell did move on.	23:51
	She wrote other books after that.	23:54
	Mary Daily did, too, but it was clear in the presentations	23:57
	that Mary	24:04
	could not relate to what	24:08
	she was saying,	24:12
	and that was an eye opener for me to say	24:14
	you need to pay attention to what other generations	24:20
	bring to the table,	24:24
	and maybe you don't necessarily need to be	24:27
	at the table anymore.	24:30
	You can receive the gifts that they bring,	24:33
	but your voice needs to be a different voice.	24:38
	And this was all around power,	24:42
	and understanding power,	24:46
	and that, I'm sure, was as I was moving into	24:48
	being a superintendent, or was already one,	24:51
	where my power had changed,	24:55
	and how do you listen to	24:59
	different people and different voices.	25:02
-	Fascinating, wow, that is great.	25:06
	Talking about the community, kind of having you reflect	25:09
	on it, which you're already doing, which is great.	25:11
	How would you define Re-Imagining?	25:14
-	I'm thinking back to our discussion around the word,	25:24
	Re-Imagining, because that word was not	25:27
	solidified at that retreat,	25:31
	and we talked about whether it was Re-Imaging,	25:34
	or Re-Imagining.	25:37
	As I'm remembering, my feelings,	25:41
	my thinking about this, or maybe it was group thinking	25:44
	about this that we weren't	25:48
	necessarily re-imaging that which was,	25:51
	but re-imagining that which would be.	25:55
	And I think that is still even as we've been meaning	26:02
	as a small group to	26:09
	do this archive work, and so forth.	26:11
	It is for the future, how do we continue to re-imagine	26:16
	that it's not a re-image, it's a re-imagining	26:20
	that which can come forth.	26:26
	So, that's sort what I understand Re-Imagining to be.	26:29
-	That is great.	26:33
-	And that's why I think we continued	26:34
	after the backlash,	26:39
	that we weren't going to go back to the same image,	26:41
	and re-image it in a lesser way	26:46
	that we were going to continue to re-imagining,	26:49
	so Re-Imagining actually became a verb.	26:52
	That we are re-imagining, we're not static.	26:58
-	Right.	27:02
	I think you've kind of hinted at this,	27:05
	and it's been good.	27:08
	How would you say that feminist theology affected	27:10
	the structure and functioning of the community?	27:12
-	Well, I think it's part of this re-imagining	27:17
	that we were going to do	27:22
	structure differently.	27:24
	That's why we had lay and clergy	27:26
	co-chairs for all the committees.	27:30
	When we had a discussion this morning about,	27:39
	we've never voted on anything!	27:42
-	Yeah, that's right, yes.	27:43
-	Because we worked on a consensus model,	27:46
	which often took a while to get to consensus.	27:49
	We understood the value of all the voices around	27:57
	the table, so we spent extensive time checking in,	27:59
	and then we did our work.	28:03
	For those people that were frustrated with that,	28:08
	there were people along the way who came in	28:10
	and came out of the committee.	28:12
	One person that will go nameless	28:17
	came in, was recruited to do some work,	28:20
	and she was so upset that we spent all this time	28:24
	doing the checking in time,	28:28
	and she said, "You could be so much more efficient	28:32
	"if you just get down to work."	28:36
	I think we just learned to live together in community,	28:42
	and to value where each person was,	28:46
	and then we got down to work,	28:49
	and then the work went a lot easier,	28:51
	and if we're working on a consensus model	28:53
	because we knew what some of the issues were	28:57
	that people dealing with, it made it easier to	29:00
	engage in conversation, and that the relationship	29:05
	was much richer and stronger,	29:07
	and I think that is one of the gifts that	29:09
	women bring.	29:12
	The feminist theology is about relationships.	29:14
	God's relationship with us, our relationship with God,	29:20
	that it is	29:25
	a more	29:28
	relational experience than God telling us	29:30
	what to do or whatever.	29:35
-	Actually, could you describe what...	29:38
	I know what you mean by check-in, but maybe you could	29:41
	explain it.	29:42
-	As we gathered at our meeting times,	29:46
	we would go around the table and just share what	29:49
	was going on with each of us.	29:51
	How our families were, what was impacting our lives.	29:55
	So, that's what I mean by checking in.	30:01
-	Yeah, yes, exactly.	30:03
	What challenges were faced by the community	30:07
	while it was in existence?	30:10
	And how did the community address them?	30:12
	I think funding was an issue, although I think	30:19
	we still were funded by	30:22
	part of the Tri-Council Coordinating Committee,	30:24
	which was the Greater Minneapolis Council of Churches,	30:26
	the Saint Paul Area Council of Churches,	30:30
	and Minnesota Council of Churches.	30:31
	We probably got money out of the subscriptions to	30:41
	the journal.	30:46
	I think that some of the challenges are	30:58
	what was next,	31:01
	how long do we keep doing this,	31:05
	is it finite or is it on-going	31:08
	challenges over?	31:20
	We hired a staff person finally.	31:25
	Boy, I'm not remembering,	31:32
	but it was sort of the challenges were primarily,	31:34
	from my perspective, were organizational,	31:37
	not necessarily theological.	31:41
	The theology was stuff was goin' on out here.	31:44
	People were writing for the journal,	31:48
	and submitting stuff to the journal,	31:52
	and discussion from that, but from the	31:54
	coordinating council perspective,	31:59
	it was primarily administrative organizational,	32:03
	and we knew that there were	32:06
	groups like the group that you're in	32:09
	that continued to meet, and some that still continue	32:12
	to meet.	32:16
-	The small groups?	32:17
-	Small groups, right.	32:18
	We formed group at Hamlin Church	32:22
	when I was pastor there.	32:25
	I don't think that group continues to meet,	32:29
	but it did after I left.	32:33
	We met for breakfast.	32:37
-	So, it would have been several years that they met?	32:40
-	Oh, yeah.	32:42
	'Cause I didn't leave there until 97.	32:44
-	Okay, yeah, so that's a few.	32:46
-	Lasted after that.	32:49
-	Sure, yeah.	32:50
	As you think back about it, what aspects of	32:53
	Re-Imagining were most significant to you, and why?	32:55
-	So, on several levels, one,	33:17
	by being chair and working through a different way	33:21
	of working, I gained a lot of skill in how to	33:25
	work collaboratively,	33:29
	and I think that's a gift that I have,	33:32
	and I have administrative gifts.	33:37
	That's where I could bring my gifts.	33:39
	I think of Mary Gates,	33:45
	who always has something sell,	33:46
	and that was her gift.	33:50
	She did just such a wonderful job of	33:57
	having stuff for people to buy.	34:01
	Learning is that you don't have to do it all yourself,	34:09
	that various people bring their gifts to the table,	34:13
	and Susan Martin	34:17
	came in that year that I was gone,	34:19
	and just did the liturgy, and I got back,	34:22
	and there I was, oh my gosh.	34:25
-	Wow!	34:28
-	To trust	34:35
	the gifts of other women,	34:38
	and the power that comes from that,	34:41
	and then to see it played out at the event,	34:43
	and continue to play out.	34:46
	That was one of the highlights.	34:48
-	That is great.	34:52
-	I think another one	34:54
	after the conference,	34:59
	and people like Marianne Lundy, and Gene Audrey Powers,	35:02
	Joey Suel,	35:07
	some of these women that did not cave	35:10
	into the forces of tradition,	35:17
	and continued to stand up for what they believed	35:22
	was right.	35:26
	That served as a great witness.	35:28
	Was it Rita that got interviewed on	35:34
	one of the TV shows?	35:37
-	Mmhm.	35:39
-	Powerful.	35:41
	Voices of women were not going to be lost.	35:47
	That is important.	35:53
-	Did your involvement in Re-Imagining change your	35:58
	perspective on feminist theology, or the church?	36:01
	And if so, how?	36:06
-	My call to ministry was to change the church.	36:07
	Seriously.	36:12
-	Yeah, say some more about that, Cathy.	36:13
	That's interesting.	36:15
-	I've just always had an understanding that	36:22
	that's what my call was.	36:25
	Was to change the church, I didn't know how	36:27
	that was gonna happen, or what was gonna happen,	36:30
	but that's what my calling was.	36:34
	My call came	36:37
	during an experience	36:41
	in Illinois.	36:44
	I was raised Presbyterian.	36:46
	We didn't have church camps like they do in Minnesota	36:50
	where we went to camp.	36:53
	I did my camping through the Girl Scouts,	36:55
	but they would have youth gatherings for	36:59
	youth at college campuses.	37:03
	And so, my call came as an experience	37:09
	at one of these	37:15
	events at Monument.	37:17
	My senior year in high school, the youth were to	37:21
	put on the church service,	37:24
	and the pastor wouldn't let me preach	37:27
	'cause I'd been into him, and talked to him about how,	37:30
	well, I was an outspoken, young woman.	37:33
	He asked my best friend at church	37:38
	to preach the sermon, so she and I wrote the sermon.	37:42
	(laughing)	37:46
	So, all the things that I wanted to change about	37:52
	the church back then, I don't know what it was,	37:54
	got incorporated into it anyway.	37:57
-	I love that story.	38:00
-	But that sense of call to change the church	38:02
	has been part and parcel	38:07
	of my understanding of theology	38:10
	and what I was to do in the church, and that's why	38:15
	I'm running again for judicial council is	38:18
	that thanks to Bishop O who preached a sermon at	38:21
	United for on Methodist days,	38:25
	and he talked about call, and I was sittin' there,	38:29
	and thinkin', well, this is good, students need	38:32
	to hear that, and all of a sudden, it was like,	38:33
	and you do, too.	38:36
	(laughing)	38:37
	I had already scheduled a meeting with him	38:40
	after lunch, after that on that Methodist day	38:44
	'cause his schedule,	38:48
	and we had a couple of other things that we needed	38:50
	to talk about.	38:52
	And I said, "Well, you know what, I told you that	38:54
	"I didn't wanna run for judicial council.	38:56
	"After your sermon, I've changed my mind."	39:00
	And they had already sent the list of names,	39:02
	the College of Bishops had sent it into	39:09
	the Council of Bishops.	39:11
	And I said, "Is it too late?"	39:13
	He said, "Oh, it's never too late."	39:14
	So, he turned my name in,	39:18
	and John Hopkins contacted me, and said, "Good.	39:22
	"We have your name down, it'll be on the list."	39:27
-	You're still hearing and answering the call.	39:32
	So, when you talk about changing the church,	39:35
	can you say a little bit more about	39:37
	what that has meant to you on different times,	39:39
	or in different ways?	39:40
-	I think what I was talking about before	39:42
	about being able to listen the various voices	39:46
	has been important to me as I was the superintendent,	39:53
	but also the work that I did at the general church level,	39:59
	which was actually doing some restructure work	40:02
	on the General Council and Ministries.	40:06
	Being able to put all the pieces together	40:11
	into something new.	40:16
-	And did Re-Imagining relate to that in some way?	40:19
-	Yeah, I was	40:23
	elected to	40:26
	the General Council and Ministries starting in 1992,	40:29
	so it was 92 through 2000.	40:32
	In 92 is when we first began talking about	40:39
	restructuring the church, and so a lot of the new	40:43
	stuff that I had been hearing through Re-Imagining	40:48
	and doing through Re-Imagining,	40:52
	then I was able to take to the general church level,	40:55
	and have that,	41:00
	be open to hearing new things,	41:03
	and working with people in new ways.	41:07
-	Are there kind of specific things that you're thinking of?	41:10
-	Not really.	41:20
	There was learning about	41:25
	Margaret Wheatley's work and leadership in the new science,	41:30
	Glenda Oyang around,	41:34
	what do they call that?	41:41
	Fractals and how pieces fit together.	41:44
	Adaptive learning, which was much later,	41:51
	so to be open.	41:57
	I think the Re-Imagining piece	41:58
	laid the groundwork to re-imagine something new,	42:02
	and that it could be something new,	42:06
	not just tinkering with the old,	42:10
	which is what we're still doing.	42:14
-	Okay, that makes sense, yeah.	42:18
-	And that's some of the thing	42:20
	that really challenges me on the judicial council	42:23
	because you have this book of discipline	42:25
	that is very state, and the constitution,	42:28
	and that's what you work out of,	42:30
	and so how is it that you bring the newness out of	42:32
	something that is pretty static?	42:37
-	Quite a job.	42:41
-	Right, and to be focused rather than thinking, oh boy.	42:42
	So, that's the challenge of the judicial council.	42:47
-	Sure, yeah.	42:50
	What specific contributions do you think Re-Imagining	42:53
	made to Christian theology or liturgy?	42:56
-	I think it opened up new worlds of how to do liturgy,	43:05
	that it's not just static.	43:10
	You can be faithful	43:14
	to the traditional and still do it in a new way.	43:16
	You can gather in new ways, so they criticized,	43:23
	they, being the Good News folk and the Layman	43:26
	magazine or whatever from the Presbyterian church	43:31
	that we gathered around tables,	43:36
	and that we had coloring,	43:38
	and that we sang chants.	43:43
	Probably, well, it would have been in	43:49
	1996, I think,	43:52
	a number of us were at the national	44:00
	leadership training for Annual Conference Leadership.	44:04
	Well, we came in and we were all sitting around tables,	44:09
	and then they started singing some of the chants	44:13
	from Re-Imagining.	44:15
-	Really?	44:16
-	I don't think people knew.	44:17
	It was Mary Gates, and Jean Justice.	44:21
	Oh, I don't know, there were	44:27
	a number of us who had been	44:30
	active participants on the Re-Imagining Council	44:33
	or part of Re-Imagining.	44:37
	So, they going, really?	44:40
-	Do you know who planned that?	44:44
-	I don't know.	44:48
	It might have been Marsha McFien, looking back at it.	44:50
-	It wasn't these Re-Imagining people sitting there.	44:54
-	Uh uh.	44:56
	(laughing)	44:58
	And here we are, then we walked in,	45:00
	and we were sitting at a table.	45:01
	We said, oh, really?	45:03
	And there's paper on these tables.	45:04
-	No!	45:07
	And this is the planning for the Minnesota Annual--	45:08
-	No, this is for the general church.	45:10
-	For the general church, really?	45:12
	The general conference, wow.	45:14
-	All the boards and agencies	45:17
	had the leadership from each annual conference	45:19
	come to figure out what they were supposed to do	45:24
	for the next quadrennial.	45:26
-	That's amazing.	45:28
-	We just looked at each other and started laughing.	45:30
-	I bet you did.	45:33
-	You know, after all of the crap that	45:34
	we been getting around	45:38
	these things,	45:40
	the mechanical kinds of things that we did.	45:41
	I was like, oh, really?	45:47
	So, back to the question about theology.	45:53
	So, what we did	45:59
	has become mainstream.	46:01
	The other piece that I think has happened is that	46:07
	women's voices are listened to, and it gave voice	46:11
	to women doing theology,	46:18
	and a lot of the women that were presenters are still	46:21
	significant voices today,	46:26
	and new people have come along behind.	46:29
-	Now, earlier you said you feel like we've gone	46:34
	many backwards on inclusive language.	46:36
-	I think we have.	46:38
-	So, in some ways, some of it has gone forward,	46:39
	and other parts have not?	46:42
-	Right.	46:43
	Elaine Pagel's work, I think she came after Re-Imagining.	46:49
	A lot of the	46:58
	women who were speaking,	47:04
	who were writing, and teaching	47:07
	prior to Re-Imagining	47:12
	gained a different voice	47:16
	because of Re-Imagining.	47:19
-	Do you think that voice was heard or is it heard	47:21
	in the churches?	47:24
-	Probably not.	47:25
	When people talk about being spiritual	47:29
	and not religious,	47:33
	you know that	47:35
	that's who was at that conference	47:37
	we're the women that are spiritual.	47:38
	Denominations really didn't matter.	47:41
	It was experiencing the spirit in a new way,	47:44
	and allowing the spirit to be present in a new way,	47:50
	and so the Re-Imagining groups carried that on.	47:55
	I think today the phenomena of reading groups	48:00
	is a continuation of that	48:07
	spirit kind of work in a new way.	48:10
-	Yeah, where you're moving toward the forward,	48:17
	which is to the future, excuse me,	48:19
	so what do you think is the greatest legacy	48:22
	of Re-Imagining today?	48:24
-	I'm somewhat surprised at the response	48:43
	that you're getting in the work at you're doing,	48:46
	that it's still out there.	48:48
	Because all of us around that table have kinda moved on.	48:51
	We're not stuck back in 1993.	48:56
	We're wanting to say it was important,	49:00
	and it needs to be archived, the experience that I had with	49:03
	Rebecca Coleman, is that her name?	49:07
-	Monica?	49:10
-	Monica Coleman,	49:10
	who got excited when she found out that I had	49:13
	been co-chair.	49:15
	She said, "Where is it? We need to find it!"	49:17
	She was asking where is the research.	49:22
	It needs to be accessible	49:27
	to current scholars,	49:30
	and so I think that's the legacy	49:32
	that we continue to bring forward,	49:36
	and the work that you're doing.	49:40
	I mean it's gonna take a huge	49:41
	quantum leap in	49:43
	that arena.	49:46
-	With a lot of support, which is wonderful.	49:48
	Finishing up here, but what would Re-Imagining,	49:53
	or what should Re-Imagining mean today?	49:56
	What does it mean to Re-Imagine?	49:58
-	Well, I think it's back to that concept of	50:00
	re-imagining as a verb that continues	50:03
	going forward and I think	50:06
	that's the gift that we give the future,	50:10
	and we know that nothing is static,	50:19
	and we can't go back even though there are	50:22
	people that want to in the political arena these days.	50:25
	We just can't go back to what was past.	50:29
	We have to move forward, and I think that's God	50:32
	pulling us forward into the new future.	50:35
	God's not static.	50:38
	God is always active	50:39
	in bringing something new.	50:43
	That's what it's all about.	50:45
	That's what makes life exciting.	50:49
-	Exactly.	50:51
	I have one very specific question.	50:53
	You know we're working on this Re-Imagining website,	50:55
	and I'd love to hear if you have any thoughts about	50:58
	what would be good to include,	51:01
	who we should target, who would benefit from it,	51:03
	any thoughts you have about that website.	51:06
-	There needs to be a lot of links to	51:15
	the work that you're doing right now,	51:18
	and to authors.	51:23
	How you get people to Google Re-Imagining and find out	51:28
	I think is a challenge that we have,	51:33
	and it may mean that we may need to do some	51:37
	significant fundraising in order to	51:41
	put ads on other people's websites	51:47
	for Re-Imagining.	51:52
-	When you said links to authors, I just wanna be clear.	51:54
	Which authors were you thinking of?	51:57
-	Whoever's writing good stuff these days.	51:59
-	So, current things, gotcha.	52:02
-	You know, as in authors,	52:07
	there's new things being discovered,	52:09
	new ways of thinking,	52:12
	and there's so much	52:17
	that you don't know.	52:19
	Was listening this morning to fundraising on MPR,	52:24
	Cary Miller was	52:29
	talking about the black hole.	52:32
-	I was hearing that, too.	52:34
-	I'm thinking, no, I don't think about this!	52:35
	But yeah, it's all of God.	52:38
	I don't know.	52:42
	But who has time?	52:45
	But that's why you listen to MPR.	52:47
	You can go on and do an ad for them or something.	52:50
-	And I'd join in.	52:54
	I was listening to the same thing.	52:56
	Finally, this has been wonderful, Cathy.	53:00
	Is there anything that we haven't discussed	53:02
	that you would like to talk about	53:05
	or you'd like to include?	53:06
-	Oh, I don't think so.	53:09
	It's sad to have lost people like Nancy Bernacane	53:13
	and Sally Hill.	53:17
	Who's the woman that just died?	53:20
-	Joe Ringenberg.	53:23
-	Joe Ringenberg.	53:23
	Because they were such an important part of	53:30
	what Re-Imagining was,	53:35
	and it's good to think about	53:40
	how to bring this to the next generation	53:42
	especially in this day of	53:47
	divisiveness that we live in.	53:52
-	Thank you, that's wonderful, thank you.	53:57

Item Info

Title:

Mahle, Katherine

Date:

February 18, 2016

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Jordon, Sherry E. (Sherry Elaine)

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Re-Imagining Collection

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reimagining
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ark:/87924/r4125sc69
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Sallie Bingham Center for Women's History & Culture

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