Strausz-Clement, Judith / Re-Imagining Collection / Duke Digital Repository

Interviewer

Judy, first of all,

0:02

thank you so much for agreeing

0:03

to be interviewed for this and if you could just

0:05

say your full name and maybe spell it too.

0:07

Judy

Judith, J-U-D-I-T-H

0:12

(coughs)

0:15

Excuse me.

0:16

A. Middle initial is A.

0:17

Last name is a hyphenated name, Strausz-Clement.

0:19

S-T-R-A-U-S as in Sam, Z as in Zebra

0:24

hyphen, Clement, C-L-E-M-E-N-T.

0:30

Interviewer

Thank you very much.

0:35

Are you lay or clergy?

0:37

Judy

I am clergy.

0:40

I am a Presbyterian clergy woman.

0:42

Interviewer

Thank you very...

0:44

Thank you very much.

0:45

And Judy, when and where were you born?

0:46

Judy

I was born in Yakima, Washington in 1940.

0:49

Interviewer

Oh okay, so you're back in Washington again?

0:55

Judy

Yes.

0:58

Interviewer

And where did you go to school?

0:59

Graduate or divinity school?

1:00

Judy

I went to Washington State University

1:03

and Paul Min as an undergraduate

1:06

and I got my MDs from

1:08

United Theological Seminary next to the city.

1:10

Interviewer

Okay, great, and what worker ministry

1:13

were you doing at the time of re-imagining?

1:16

Judy

Um...let me see...

1:21

I was newly married to John.

1:25

Interviewer

Mhm.

1:27

Judy

I had just finished being an inner-city...

1:28

No that's not right.

1:33

I had just finished being an inner-city pastor

1:34

in Minneapolis.

1:37

Interviewer

Mhm.

1:39

Judy

And was living in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania

1:39

and looking for a job as an interim pastor.

1:43

I did have a job with Mt. Chestnut Presbyterian Church

1:47

in Butler, Pennsylvania.

1:53

Interviewer

Wonderful. Thank you.

1:56

And what worker ministry did you do after re-imagining?

1:59

Judy

I continued to be an interim ministry specialist.

2:02

Interviewer

Mmm...

2:07

And was that always in Pennsylvania? That area still?

2:09

Judy

No, I had a...

2:13

I had that church, I was in Silver Spring,

2:17

in Pennsylvania, and then I came to Milwaukee.

2:20

I had another interim there and my largest church

2:25

was in Geneva, Illinois, a 700 member church.

2:29

I was the pastor head of staff and then

2:33

I was there for a couple years

2:37

and then I went on my last confrontation

2:39

was in Willmette, Illinois which is

2:41

the north shore of Chicago.

2:44

I was there for a couple years and then I retired.

2:46

Interviewer

Oh, okay.

2:49

Thank you, that's...

2:50

You've been several different places.

2:52

That's great.

2:54

Judy, do you remember how and when

2:55

you first became aware of feminist theology?

2:56

Judy

As a matter of fact, I do.

3:00

I had started seminary

3:03

and I think one of the first or second days,

3:06

one of the professors decided that he would read,

3:09

I don't remember the passage or scripture,

3:14

but he changed all of the male pronouns to female pronouns

3:17

and he read the text with all female pronouns

3:21

and I thought woo, isn't that interesting?

3:26

I had never even thought of that before.

3:30

(Interviewer laughing)

3:32

So that was my first experience with it.

3:33

Interviewer

Interesting.

3:36

So your first reaction was kind of,

3:37

this is interesting?

3:38

I mean it wasn't negative.

3:40

It was sort of just...

3:42

Judy

Oh, never.

3:43

Interviewer

Yeah, yeah, okay.

3:44

Well that's great.

3:46

I mean you can point to a specific moment.

3:47

That's pretty interesting.

3:48

That's great.

3:49

Um, and then I assume your knowledge and interest in it

3:51

kinda grew during your seminary period?

3:54

Judy

Wait now, I didn't understand that.

3:58

Interviewer

Oh, I'm sorry.

3:59

I assume your knowledge of and interest

4:00

in feminist theology grew during your seminary time.

4:04

Judy

Oh, very much so. Very much so, yeah.

4:08

Interviewer

Good.

4:11

Well, if we could move to re-imagining,

4:13

could you talk about what led

4:15

to your initial involvement in re-imagining?

4:17

Judy

I was a member of the Twin City Area of Presbytery

4:22

and the executive, which was Bob Lucas,

4:26

asked me to specifically be the delegate,

4:28

the delegate from the Twin City Area of Presbytery

4:33

to this group who was planning this ecumenical conference.

4:37

So it was the ecumenical decade.

4:45

Churches in solidarity with women

4:48

and Sally Hill from the Metropolitan...

4:51

Twin Cities Metropolitan Church Commission

4:56

and she's deceased now,

4:57

but she was gathering a group and I was asked

4:59

to be the Presbytery representative to that.

5:03

Interviewer

So you were kinda

5:06

in at the ground floor there.

5:07

Could you talk about some of your memories you might have?

5:09

I know it's been a long time,

5:12

but what the process was like and how it evolved

5:14

into the re-imagining conference?

5:16

Judy

I think the biggest one that I'm sure

5:21

I think you probably have this from many, many people,

5:22

the biggest, the most intense memory

5:26

was when we named it.

5:31

Interviewer

Yes.

5:33

Judy

We were all at a dinner meeting, dinner party

5:34

and I don't remember where it was.

5:37

Mary Ann Lindy was there and, you know,

5:40

there were probably ten of us around the table

5:42

and we were trying to figure out

5:44

what we were gonna call this thing.

5:45

Interviewer

Mhm.

5:48

Judy

And we came up with Timmy Gene and various words,

5:49

but the scribe put the wrong name,

5:55

put the wrong spelling of what we were saying

6:00

on the whiteboard.

6:04

Interviewer

Mhm.

6:05

Judy

And it turned out to "re-imagining"

6:06

and we, so we looked at that and said,

6:09

"Oh, what do you think about that?"

6:12

And so we talked a lot about that

6:14

and decided that it was the Holy Spirit

6:17

moving us along.

6:20

(Interviewer laughing)

6:21

And here it was, re-imagining, and that's what it became.

6:22

Interviewer

I love it.

6:26

That is great.

6:27

Judy

And then another one.

6:29

I was part of the steering committee

6:31

as we struggled with a logo

6:36

and eventually the logo became a box

6:41

with flames of...

6:45

Except that they weren't red necessarily...

6:48

But flames coming out of this box.

6:50

Basically, you know, we had been in a box

6:52

and pretty soon the box had an opening

6:55

and everything, you know, poured out.

6:58

New ideas, new concepts, et cetera.

7:01

Interviewer

And I think I might know,

7:05

but what did the flame represent?

7:07

Judy

Well, the flame was...

7:11

It wasn't a flame because it wasn't red.

7:14

Interviewer

Oh, okay, mhm.

7:17

Judy

But what was coming out of the box

7:18

was all of this dodgy old, um...

7:22

This dodgy old grease that didn't work for us anymore.

7:31

Everything that was male, you know,

7:37

nothing female,

7:41

but here was this box with the open top

7:41

and all of this coming forth.

7:45

New ideas not locked up into a box anymore.

7:48

Interviewer

Yes.

7:52

Judy

So we put that on letterhead

7:53

and we put it on T-shirts and we put it on cups.

7:56

You know, we put it all over.

7:59

Interviewer

Mhm.

8:02

And Judy, I'm wondering if you remember.

8:05

It sounds like there was an evolution process

8:07

to become kinda this theological colloquium

8:10

and it kinda grew.

8:13

Do you remember about how that process happened?

8:14

Judy

Uh, I'm not quite sure what you're asking.

8:19

Interviewer

Oh, sure.

8:22

Judy

It seems like the...

8:24

Are you there?

8:25

Interviewer

I am there, sorry.

8:27

Judy

It seems like um...

8:29

That the initial participants were always there.

8:33

Interviewer

Okay.

8:40

Judy

I don't think we added a whole lot.

8:40

We might have added Randy.

8:43

Interviewer

Mhm.

8:45

Judy

Later on.

8:48

Interviewer

Randy Nelson?

8:49

Judy

Randy Nelson, yes.

8:52

Interviewer

Mhm.

8:53

Judy

Manley was there at the beginning.

8:54

I was there at the beginning.

8:56

I just...

8:59

Just a lot of people were there at the beginning.

9:00

I also left after I got married

9:03

and I got married end of May in '93

9:07

and so I left.

9:14

I don't know if anybody else left,

9:16

but I was there through most of it

9:17

except for the, you know, the very end of it.

9:19

Interviewer

Mhm.

9:22

Well looking at the minutes,

9:25

it looked like there were different ideas.

9:27

They were gonna celebrate the ecumenical decade,

9:29

but it looked like they weren't clear

9:32

about what exactly you were gonna do

9:34

and then it evolved into the global theological colloquium?

9:37

Judy

Yeah, that's true.

9:41

I've written about this.

9:45

We thought initially that we would invite

9:47

women theologians along with a few hundred others

9:51

who would dialogue with each other about

9:53

issues that were important to women.

9:55

This was a good idea, but the funding wasn't out

9:59

and so we couldn't do that.

10:02

But after a while, Mary Anne somehow

10:04

got the funding straightened out

10:07

with the Presbyterian Church and we got the funding

10:10

and we decided that we would try to have this

10:14

big, big gathering.

10:18

Interviewer

Mhm.

10:21

Judy

2,000.

10:23

We kept saying, "I think we'll invite the whole world".

10:25

(Interviewer laughing)

10:28

I said that many times.

10:30

"I think we'll invite the whole world".

10:31

Every single weekend, in the form of the speakers.

10:34

Because they were from the whole world.

10:38

Interviewer

Yes.

10:41

The other really interesting thing about this re-imagining

10:43

was that it wasn't just a regular conference

10:46

where you invited in speakers

10:49

and I'm just wondering if you recall

10:52

about the worship and the art and how that developed

10:53

'cause that was so amazing that it involved

10:57

more than just speakers.

10:59

Judy

Right, right.

11:02

The worship was phenomenal

11:03

and I credit Sue Side Martin.

11:06

You know, she is awfully busy,

11:08

but she was an extraordinarily creative musician

11:10

and artist, I guess,

11:15

and she would come to the meetings

11:18

with all of this, you know.

11:20

She created new songs.

11:22

You know, they got us into trouble too.

11:26

The songs did.

11:28

Interviewer

Mhm.

11:29

Judy

She created new songs.

11:31

She created new liturgy.

11:32

It was extraordinary.

11:35

I had never been to anything that was

11:38

quite as creative as that.

11:40

Interviewer

Mhm.

11:41

Well I think that brings us to your experience

11:44

at the '93 conference...gathering.

11:46

Now, you mentioned you moved away

11:48

and then came back for the gathering

11:51

and I'm just curious what your experience

11:53

was like at that gathering that you had helped to plan.

11:56

Judy

Oh well, I remember walking in the door

12:00

and tears...

12:04

I have to tell you this.

12:06

Even talking about it, I get a little weepy about this.

12:07

(Interviewer makes sympathetic sound)

12:11

I stood in the general area of the auditorium

12:13

and thought, "My gosh, we did it. We did it".

12:19

It was overwhelming and we never stopped that

12:25

and we walked into the gathering

12:32

with all of these thousand women and 83 men.

12:34

It was an overwhelming experience

12:38

and when we were all in the big room.

12:41

2,000 others in this big room,

12:44

that was pretty overwhelming too.

12:46

Interviewer

That is so moving to hear you say that.

12:51

So powerful, after all these years,

12:54

and it was for so many people.

12:56

Judy

Yes, it was.

12:59

It...

13:01

It freed up so many of us.

13:03

You know, I was preaching regularly

13:07

and, you know, many of us were

13:09

and this conference freed us up in many ways.

13:11

Although all the backlash that was happening

13:18

also put a damper on it considerably.

13:22

Especially those of us who were not in the Twin Cities

13:25

and I'm very aware that my experience in Pennsylvania,

13:28

Western Pennsylvania,

13:35

which is a very, very conservative area,

13:36

was very much different than the experience

13:39

of my steering committee friends in the Twin Cities.

13:42

The Presbytery that I was in in Western Pennsylvania

13:51

which is Beaver Butler Presbytery

13:53

they voted to condemn the conference

13:56

at the same time that the Presbytery

13:59

of the Twin Cities area was voting to affirm it.

14:01

Interviewer

Yes.

14:04

Judy

So, I mean we were all

14:05

called heretics in Pennsylvania about this

14:07

and so I, you know,

14:11

the experience was very much different, I think,

14:13

depending on where you were.

14:18

Interviewer

Mhm, which is why it's important

14:20

to get your story.

14:22

Also, you wouldn't have had the same

14:23

kind of support as people would have had

14:24

in the Twin Cities, right?

14:26

Judy

True. Right. Correct.

14:29

Interviewer

Yeah.

14:31

I wanna hear so much about this.

14:32

I did wanna just ask when you said,

14:34

"It freed us up",

14:35

I just wonder if you could say

14:37

a little bit more about that.

14:38

Judy

Well, I think it freed us up eventually.

14:42

Interviewer

Yeah.

14:46

Judy

To be more...

14:47

The conference freed us up eventually.

14:50

At least, I speak for myself.

14:53

I really did cower in a corner for a few weeks

14:57

in Pennsylvania.

15:02

I was afraid I was gonna lose my job.

15:03

I was afraid I was going to be

15:06

convicted of heresy.

15:08

Interviewer

Yeah.

15:09

Judy

Oh, it was...

15:12

Everywhere I went they spoke about re-imagining

15:14

it was cold.

15:19

Also the conference.

15:20

And so I was not in a place where

15:23

re-imagining was supported or affirmed

15:26

in any way, shape, or form.

15:32

Interviewer

Yeah.

15:34

Judy

John was facing that too,

15:35

but eventually I could, you know,

15:37

after a year went by

15:41

and because I was still preaching regularly.

15:42

Interviewer

Yeah.

15:45

Judy

My preaching would take the form

15:46

of more justice feminist issues.

15:49

I was thinking about this whole thing.

15:55

Do you remember the whole business

15:57

about the Clarence Thomas, Anita Hill?

16:00

Interviewer

Oh yes.

16:02

Judy

Awful.

16:03

Interviewer

Mhm.

16:05

Judy

That happened before re-imagining

16:06

and I preached on that in terms of justice issue.

16:09

That because of, you know, text that I could use

16:15

to deal with something like that,

16:22

I became more free to use the text

16:25

to talk about justice issues that I wouldn't have been

16:34

if re-imagining had not happened.

16:39

I mean that's kind of that...

16:41

The flames or the streamers coming out of the box.

16:45

I mean, we were not in the box anymore.

16:49

Thank goodness.

16:51

Interviewer

Yes.

16:52

I have to ask, that is so fascinating,

16:54

do you remember what you said about

16:56

the Anita Hill, Clarence Thomas thing?

16:59

What biblical...?

17:01

That's fascinating.

17:02

Judy

I probably have the service somewhere,

17:06

but I don't remember.

17:08

I do remember I was just aghast at the whole thing.

17:09

Interviewer

Yes, yes.

17:14

Well, I was wondering, you know,

17:17

I do know that it affected you directly,

17:19

the backlash,

17:22

and you've already started talking some about that,

17:22

but could you say more about how you

17:24

were affected directly by it?

17:27

Especially given your context.

17:29

Judy

Uh, yeah...

17:31

Let me see, how do I say this?

17:35

I can read you some of what I've written about this.

17:40

Interviewer

That would be great.

17:45

Judy

One of the things that just,

17:50

I didn't understand it.

17:52

Are you a Presbyterian?

17:54

Interviewer

No, United Methodist, actually.

17:56

Judy

Okay, the Presbyterian Church

17:59

is a church of the reformation

18:00

and our motto is "reformed, always reforming"

18:02

and in our service of ordination

18:07

in the installation of elders, speakers,

18:10

euchans, and ministers,

18:12

there is a sentence that is asked of every single person.

18:14

"Will you seek to serve the people

18:18

"with energy, intelligence, and"

18:20

here's the word,

18:23

"imagination and love?"

18:23

These words from our book of order.

18:26

The word "imagined", "imagination", and "re-imagining"

18:30

stunned many people and ignited a fire-storm

18:34

of words, condemnation.

18:39

Threats with charges of heresy.

18:41

Threats of withdrawal of funds.

18:43

Hate-mail and loss of jobs.

18:45

That word, that word is in our ordination.

18:49

Interviewer

Yes.

18:53

Judy

Imagination.

18:54

Interviewer

Yes.

18:55

Judy

And yet, the word "re-imagining"

18:56

for our conference just blew everything wide open

18:58

and the threats and the condemnation came from

19:05

the religious right, conservative and fundamental men

19:08

and a few women

19:12

and we were in...

19:15

John was in Pittsburgh Presbytery

19:17

and I was in Butler, Pennsylvania

19:20

which is, you know, close together.

19:22

They're strongholds of conservative theology

19:24

and vest any new possibilities

19:29

for the interpretation of the scripture.

19:32

Let me see, what else can I say about this?

19:36

I was...

19:41

Because I'd been on the steering committee

19:43

and part of that very supportive

19:44

group of men and women,

19:46

when I left and after the backlash started,

19:48

I was, I felt very alone in Pittsburgh

19:52

and I needed the support desperately of other members

19:56

of the steering committee and I had not made friends

20:00

yet in Pittsburgh

20:03

so I didn't have friends to talk about this with.

20:05

I was shocked over the hysteria

20:12

over the conference.

20:17

Even though I was in, you know, conservative

20:19

Western Pennsylvania,

20:22

I was still shocked about it.

20:23

Invoking this eminence for God

20:27

was just out of peoples' realm of possibility.

20:29

John and I were consumed daily

20:35

by what the negative press was saying

20:38

about re-imagining and every night

20:40

we would compare notes about what people

20:42

were saying about us and the conference

20:45

and I wrote in my journal at the time

20:48

that in order to survive,

20:50

I had to be someone I was not.

20:52

In order to survive with the put-down of women,

20:55

my mouth was taped shut,

20:57

my hands tied behind me,

20:59

and my feet were shackled.

21:01

That's what it felt like.

21:02

It was horrid.

21:04

And then Mary Anne Lindy was also being harangued

21:07

and you have interviewed her, have you not?

21:10

Interviewer

I have, yes.

21:12

Judy

Good.

21:14

She was harangued and verbally attacked

21:15

by those who had decided that re-imagining was heresy

21:17

and she was interviewed by Ted Koppel

21:22

and you know that, probably.

21:25

Interviewer

Mhm, mhm.

21:27

Judy

Another...

21:30

When I was voted into the Presbytery at Beaver Butler,

21:31

which is a requirement,

21:34

I got the nomination in order to work again at church.

21:35

Nobody asked me about the conference.

21:42

I mean, there wasn't a question entirely.

21:44

Nobody asked me about the conference,

21:45

but a woman got up to make a report

21:47

about the Presbyterian women and she said and I quote,

21:50

this is a quote,

21:55

"Like it or not, what they say about

21:56

"the re-imagining conference is true".

21:58

And the woman was getting her information

22:02

from the Layman.

22:04

Presbyterian Layman which is a conservative newspaper.

22:05

It's not connected with the church.

22:08

You know, it's an addendum here.

22:11

But it's very inflammatory.

22:14

Interviewer

Mhm.

22:17

Judy

And what was interesting too

22:18

that she did not go to the re-imagining conference.

22:21

She realistically knew absolutely nothing about it

22:23

and here she was criticizing it.

22:26

I finally came to my senses and thought,

22:33

"I cannot cower any longer",

22:37

so I, when people would ask me to talk about it,

22:40

I did

22:43

and I spoke at another large Presbyterian meeting

22:45

in the middle of the state

22:49

and they wanted me to discuss the issues

22:51

of re-imagining and I did

22:55

and one person came up to me and said later

22:57

that she was concerned about her daughter

23:00

and what would happen if she had questioned

23:02

the leadership of the church about

23:04

the issues of re-imagining.

23:06

She wouldn't be able to do that

23:08

because there was so much criticism about it.

23:11

At another Presbyterian meeting there were

23:17

more negative comments about Mary Anne Lindy

23:19

and a Presbytery member stood up and said

23:24

that Mary Anne Lindy was "out to destroy the church"

23:28

and I quote that.

23:33

Because of the re-imagining conference.

23:35

I was prepared to stand up and counter that statement,

23:38

but instead, the Reverend Jan Hall,

23:41

he's a former moderator of the General Assembly,

23:44

and he's a member of that Presbytery.

23:48

He stood up and said that he had

23:50

a different theology from Mary Anne Lindy,

23:52

but he respected her and her theology

23:55

and her faith stance and she was not

23:58

out to destroy the church and that kind of accusation

24:01

was just not appropriate on the floor of Presbytery

24:05

and he sat down.

24:10

And no more said.

24:12

So he was able to counter that.

24:14

Another thing, I had a governing body

24:20

called the session during that time

24:24

and every church has a session in our denomination

24:27

and I put together a package of information

24:31

supporting the conference and what the Layman was saying

24:36

and the conference, the session,

24:42

really didn't understand the lot of it.

24:46

I would say that the mindset would be

24:48

of the female and that I would really be

24:51

raked over the coals,

24:54

but I eventually,

24:56

it turned out that my ministry there

24:57

was a very positive ministry despite

25:00

the fact that the re-imagining had taken place

25:03

and that I was part of it.

25:07

Let's see here...

25:11

What else do I wanna say about this?

25:14

The issue of inclusive language

25:20

was such a big deal there at the re-imagining conference.

25:23

I do remember there was one point.

25:28

All of the women who are members

25:31

of the Church of the Brethren,

25:33

they stood up and got up on the rises

25:35

and decided that they were not

25:40

going to be members

25:41

of the Church of the Brethren anymore.

25:42

They were gonna rename them.

25:44

Rename that church.

25:46

(Judy laughing)

25:48

I don't know what...

25:49

Everybody just hooted and hollered about that

25:51

because it was to see these few women,

25:53

there were probably only six or eight of them,

25:56

they decided of being Church of the Brethren.

25:59

Interviewer

Mhm.

26:02

Judy

I do have to say that the creative...

26:09

The creative theology that came out of re-imagining

26:12

was just stunning.

26:17

It was just...

26:19

It was such a freeing for all of us, I think.

26:21

And this is why I also tried to impress

26:28

upon John Buchanan.

26:32

We had had dinner together.

26:36

I mean, he must have come to Pittsburgh Presbytery

26:38

and so John and I were invited to a dinner party

26:42

and I ended up sitting beside him

26:46

and so we began to talk about re-imagining

26:51

and I told him of my involvement in it

26:57

and of what it meant to me and

27:00

a whole lot of other women

27:02

and then he went on to General Assembly

27:03

and he was part of this task force

27:06

that reviewed it and I believe eventually

27:09

came out and they affirmed it.

27:13

Boy.

27:15

It was...

27:19

Our language was about my husband, John.

27:21

While I was dealing with the hysteria

27:28

at the small church level,

27:30

John was dealing with the fallout

27:32

and the backlash at the executive level.

27:33

He was under fire for just having

27:37

gone to the conference.

27:38

Generally, he was well-liked in the Presbytery,

27:40

but now a small group of disgruntled pastors

27:42

in the Presbytery were out to make waves for him

27:46

and cast him in a negative light

27:49

because of this conference.

27:50

The small group wanted to fire him,

27:52

even so his personnel evaluation was very high.

27:55

Was very good.

27:59

The stress that he was under was enormous,

28:01

as was I.

28:03

Eventually we decided that he would not be a victim

28:05

and he would resign and so he did.

28:07

He resigned from the Presbytery.

28:11

My statement after his resignation

28:14

was that if he had not resigned from his job,

28:15

he probably would be dead soon

28:19

and so in hind...

28:22

His choosing to leave that position

28:23

was a good decision for us

28:25

and we moved on with our lives,

28:27

but it's interesting too that we both

28:29

struggled with difficult issues.

28:32

We'd been married only for a year,

28:35

and the people and the stress at the time was immense.

28:37

John had intense back spasms for several weeks.

28:41

I had a stroke in my eye because

28:45

of high blood pressure that just

28:49

was higher than a kite and it was triggered,

28:51

all the stress on me.

28:54

It was amazing that our marriage

28:56

hung together during all of this time

28:59

and we're still together and very happy.

29:01

Interviewer

Yes.

29:03

Judy

But it was awful.

29:04

So, okay, that's enough of the backlash.

29:07

(Interviewer laughing)

29:11

Interviewer

Oh, well Judy, that was really important

29:12

and thank you for that.

29:15

I did want to ask you one other thing

29:16

about in your essay you wrote about

29:19

how you also went to the clergywomen in the Presbytery,

29:22

but you weren't supported by them.

29:26

Judy

Oh they were not...

29:29

Oh that's right, I did.

29:31

I went to...

29:33

I went to gathering and one woman did.

29:34

Oh no, don't give up.

29:37

We're really going to find out what happened.

29:39

That there was no...

29:42

There was no support for me at that...

29:45

At that gathering and,

29:48

as I remember it, the women of Beaver Butlery Presbytery

29:52

were afraid of me.

29:57

They were afraid of anything I said

29:59

might rub off on them, I think.

30:02

That I come from a different mindset.

30:05

I was a progressive as a theologian.

30:08

They were stuck in Beaver Butler Presbytery

30:11

and they could not be free themselves

30:15

and so they did not talk to me

30:19

and they didn't...

30:22

It was awful.

30:26

However, my one exception

30:28

was a former Salvation Army person

30:32

and she was so supportive and so...

30:36

She understood what I was saying.

30:40

She went with me to several of these gatherings

30:42

where I was asked to speak.

30:45

So, you know, I took her with me

30:47

because I knew she was supportive.

30:49

She didn't say anything.

30:51

I knew she was supportive of me,

30:53

so that was a very interesting situation

30:55

because here she was.

31:00

She used to be part of the Salvation Army.

31:01

Interviewer

That's amazing.

31:06

And actually that brings me to the question,

31:08

given everything that you and John were facing,

31:09

how did you get through this?

31:12

That was one place you got support.

31:15

How else did you manage to get through this?

31:17

Judy

Well we talked a lot.

31:23

I mean we were both going through it.

31:25

Interviewer

Yes.

31:26

Judy

You know, they were after him.

31:27

There would be things in the paper

31:29

about John Clements, executive Presbytery

31:31

and his wife, the Reverent Judith Strausz-Clement

31:35

who was on the steering committee of re-imagining.

31:38

So we were...

31:42

The key was that we were both going through it.

31:43

We exercised a lot during that time.

31:46

I mean, we still do,

31:50

but we were really doing a lot of exercising.

31:51

You know, we prayed together.

31:55

We just talked endlessly about this

32:00

until we finally got through it.

32:04

I think the fact that we did not stay in Pittsburgh.

32:07

I mean John had basically had enough of it

32:14

and although we didn't talk about this openly,

32:19

he started, you know, to look a little bit

32:24

for another job and, you know, not really

32:27

but just keep his options open,

32:32

but he...

32:35

The fact that he did resign

32:39

rather than take all of the stuff that was

32:41

being hurled at him,

32:46

that was good for him and me and us,

32:49

that we weren't victims anymore.

32:53

We were in charge.

32:56

We decided that we've had enough of this.

32:58

Interviewer

Where did he go from there?

33:01

What position did he go to from there?

33:03

Judy

He went to Carlisle Presbytery

33:06

as an interim executive and from there

33:09

he went, after Carlisle Presbytery

33:15

he came to Blackhawk Presbytery which is Northern Illinois

33:20

and he had an extraordinarily successful...

33:25

Job there.

33:34

We were there for, what, five or six years

33:35

in Milwaukee and Geneva, Illinois, and Wilmette, Illinois,

33:37

But his...

33:46

He had a very successful...

33:47

He was the executive presbytery for Blackhawk Presbytery.

33:49

Interviewer

I'm glad to hear that.

33:55

Judy, how do you account for this backlash?

33:56

Judy

How do I account?

34:05

Well, boy...

34:07

I think people grow up with...

34:11

You know, conservative notions,

34:16

conservative theology.

34:19

They've never been around anything else.

34:20

They've not been encouraged to question anything

34:24

and if you did question you were a heretic

34:31

and so you need to accept what was said,

34:37

whether you liked it or not,

34:45

or agreed with it or not,

34:47

or if you had, you were not able to offer

34:49

any other possibilities or suggestions.

34:55

You know, you asked originally

34:58

for my definition of re-imagining.

35:00

Interviewer

Yes, yes please.

35:05

Judy

My definition

35:07

(Judy clears throat)

35:09

I said a theological convocation

35:10

by women for women and men held in Minneapolis

35:13

in November of '93.

35:17

This event gave women and men the courage

35:19

to think new thoughts and discuss them

35:23

as well as voicing thoughts that had

35:26

long been in their hearts and minds,

35:28

but perhaps never voiced.

35:31

This was a convocation where all of us

35:33

looked through different and/or new lenses

35:36

which revealed new understandings

35:40

regarding scripture and beliefs.

35:42

Re-imagining was a life-giving history-making event.

35:44

A watershed for the Presbyterian Church

35:49

and other Christian denominations.

35:51

Interviewer

That's great.

35:54

That is great.

35:56

Judy

John has always said,

35:57

"We put on new lenses, new glasses

36:01

"and we have never looked out of

36:05

"these new glasses before

36:06

"and we saw and heard some new things

36:09

"and it was important to talk about them".

36:13

Interviewer

That's a good image.

36:19

Before we move on, I did want to ask about,

36:21

you were at the 1994 General Assembly

36:24

of the Presbyterian Church

36:26

and re-imagining was a big issue there.

36:28

So I just wanted to know if you have any

36:30

recollections from that assembly

36:32

and from the report that was finally issued there.

36:35

Judy

I remember that we were on...

36:40

Let me see...

36:42

I did not speak at the assembly,

36:44

but John did, my husband did,

36:46

and he only had about 90 seconds.

36:50

There were so many people who wanted to speak,

36:53

but John had, you know, better credentials than I did.

36:57

He was the executive for Pittsburgh.

37:00

So he got up and he spoke to it.

37:02

I remember sitting and being in prayer the whole time

37:08

as I sat there and listened to the haranguing again

37:15

and listened to people who were supporting it

37:19

and praying that my conversation with John Buchanan

37:21

would, he would recall that and he would

37:28

understand how important this whole conference was

37:34

to so many women and a few men.

37:40

I do remember I was just on pins and needles

37:45

about what in the world was gonna happen

37:49

and we were so relieved when word came out that

37:53

I think they affirmed the conference,

38:00

you know, they didn't deny it,

38:02

but we were so relieved when it happened.

38:05

Interviewer

Mhm, thank you, thank you.

38:08

I wanted to ask you about now,

38:14

almost 25 years later,

38:16

what, when you look back on it,

38:18

what aspects of re-imagining were most

38:20

significant to you and why?

38:22

Judy

One of them was how important

38:28

inclusive language was

38:32

and I, you know, back in seminary,

38:34

I made inclusive language a big deal for myself

38:37

and vowed that I would use inclusive language

38:45

in preaching and in my churches

38:48

and in my liturgies and I did that

38:52

and I didn't tell my congregation that I was doing it.

38:54

I just did it and I figured they

38:58

probably wouldn't know any different

39:00

and it wouldn't occur to them that

39:03

that's what I was doing.

39:05

I think it...anyway...

39:07

Interviewer

And I assume that

39:11

there wasn't a reaction against it.

39:12

You didn't experience that.

39:14

Judy

No, no.

39:15

Interviewer

And just to be clear,

39:17

you're probably using "God",

39:18

you weren't using...

39:20

Were you using feminine language or not using...?

39:21

Judy

Neutral. I was trying to be neutral.

39:24

Interviewer

Yes, right, yup.

39:28

Judy

I think what re-imagining did for me,

39:30

it certainly fired me up again.

39:35

(Interviewer laughing)

39:37

You know, I mean, to be creative

39:39

and it fired me up about my faith

39:43

and what my faith meant to me.

39:46

When I was in Butler, Pennsylvania

39:51

I could hardly believe it.

39:53

When I got there,

39:55

now Butler, Pennsylvania is Western Pennsylvania

39:57

and that was the church that I was in

40:00

when re-imagining, everything blew up,

40:03

but there was a woman there who had four little children

40:05

and when I got there she stood in the background

40:10

and watched me as I shook hands with all,

40:14

you know, people that I had met, et cetera,

40:17

and she finally came and introduced herself

40:20

with her four kids hangin' on her.

40:23

She just kept talking with me and talking

40:25

and talking and talking.

40:28

Came to my house and she was interested

40:30

in my library and so she read some of the books

40:32

and pretty soon, what do you know,

40:35

she decided she would go back to college.

40:37

So she went back to Westminster College

40:40

and got her degree and in the meantime

40:43

she took her four children to Northern Ireland

40:47

and they spent a year there.

40:50

She just wanted to have a religious experience

40:53

and her husband was the principal

40:57

and could afford to send her so she went.

40:58

And then after that, she said

41:02

okay I think I'm going to go to Pittsburgh because seminary.

41:04

I said "oh, Gosh",

41:07

but she did that too and she is now

41:09

an ordained coregent person

41:12

in Beaver Butler Presbytery which is,

41:14

you know, very conservative place

41:17

and she is not and she is also the moderator there.

41:19

Interviewer

Wow.

41:22

Judy

So "wow" is right.

41:23

So you think about re-imagining certainly changed,

41:25

changed me, I mean, changed her,

41:33

I mean she didn't go, but the effects of re-imagining

41:35

from me to her was immense.

41:38

Was just immense.

41:41

Re-imagining was, you know, something

41:44

of new ideas, it was inspiring,

41:47

it gave new possibilities for us.

41:49

There were more women in campus I think

41:52

because of re-imagining.

41:54

It was amazing

41:58

and for Connie to have done all of this

42:00

and then, you know, a few years later

42:07

I went back and I was part of her ordination.

42:09

Interviewer

Wow.

42:13

Judy

Yep.

42:15

Interviewer

That is great.

42:15

So would you...

42:19

How did your involvement in re-imagining

42:20

change your perspective on feminist theology

42:23

or the church, would you say?

42:25

Judy

It just increased it. It just increased it.

42:28

It was, you know, I was...

42:30

I was very open to it anyway.

42:38

To inclusive language particularly

42:40

and to hear about that

42:44

because I didn't know anything about that

42:51

and I didn't know about Sophia

42:54

and about standing on the street corner

42:57

and, you know, that was really important to me

43:01

although Sophia is...it's hard to understand

43:10

and you really need more instruction

43:16

and more ideas about that.

43:19

About her.

43:22

That re-imagining also gave us, you know, so many of us

43:25

new ideas about how to incorporate a text.

43:28

How to interpret a text.

43:33

Use scripture.

43:36

Another thing that re-imagining did

43:40

I think younger women tend to be sold on re-imagining

43:43

went back to church because they had new ideas

43:49

and they could counter all of this male hierarchical stuff.

43:53

They could counter that

44:00

and they were more clergywomen I think.

44:02

The seminary that I went to the year that I was there

44:05

was the first, I mean I started in 1982.

44:09

Graduated in '87.

44:12

When I started that was the first year

44:15

that the women were 50 percent of the student body,

44:17

but United Seminary in the Twin Cities

44:22

is one of the...

44:26

That was unusual for a seminary

44:29

to have that many women,

44:31

but we did.

44:33

Interviewer

Yeah.

44:34

Judy

What else, let me see.

44:36

More women in the church.

44:38

More women in leadership.

44:40

New insights.

44:42

I mean, in the churches that I went to,

44:43

I think none of them had had a female

44:48

as the senior pastor or the head of staff.

44:52

Interviewer

Wow.

44:55

Judy

Until I got there.

44:57

Interviewer

Yeah.

44:59

Judy

I mean, the church in Wilmette,

45:02

now I don't know if you know

45:06

Wilmette is the north shore of Chicago.

45:07

Very, very affluent.

45:11

And I went and it's about 450 member church

45:13

and I was the head of staff, the senior pastor,

45:16

so I was preaching all the time.

45:21

I did have an associate.

45:23

But when I left there was a big party for me

45:25

and there was a woman who came,

45:30

an old woman who came walking across the body room

45:33

to come to the microphone and I thought,

45:37

oh I wonder what's gonna happen here,

45:40

and what she did say was,

45:43

"I was one of those women who didn't want a female.

45:46

"Who did not want Judy as our pastor

45:49

"and I can tell you that whoever we get

45:52

"is as half as good as she is,

45:55

"I'll be satisfied".

45:57

(Interviewer laughing)

45:58

Because of re-imagining, you know,

46:01

women were more accepted.

46:04

I mean, I think.

46:06

We had a lot of difficulties because of the backlash,

46:09

but eventually there were younger women,

46:13

there were more women in churches' leadership.

46:15

It was an interesting sort of progression

46:26

which started out strongly with the backlash,

46:30

but you know we got through it.

46:33

Interviewer

I missed the last part of it.

46:37

The backlash and then what was the end of that?

46:39

Judy

Well, I mean, the backlash was pretty bad,

46:42

you know, at the beginning.

46:45

Interviewer

Yes.

46:47

Judy

I said after we got through that,

46:47

the result of re-imagining

46:50

and the leadership of women that happened

46:52

and more women in the pulpit and more women

46:58

in other kinds of leadership,

47:01

I mean it really did help us in terms of

47:03

the women who were preaching and teaching in churches

47:08

and the acceptance of...

47:16

Interviewer

That is great.

47:19

I wanted to ask one follow-up question

47:21

about something you said.

47:23

That was all great.

47:24

You mentioned something about Sophia

47:25

and how language can be somewhat difficult.

47:27

Could you say a word about that?

47:32

What makes it somewhat difficult?

47:34

Judy

I don't know why it is.

47:39

I mean, I got the book She Who Is

47:41

and it's about Sophia and I think that that

47:45

particular text is a really hard one.

47:50

Let me see here...

47:57

I can't say a lot about that.

47:58

Interviewer

That's fine.

48:01

You've said a lot of good things.

48:02

I know you've talked about many of the,

48:04

a lot of the legacy of the re-imagining

48:06

conference and community.

48:09

Do you think,

48:12

what is the greatest legacy of it?

48:12

Judy

The greatest legacy probably is...

48:18

More women in church leadership.

48:27

Interviewer

Mhm.

48:29

Judy

Inclusive language.

48:31

Interviewer

Yes.

48:32

Judy

New...

48:34

Looking at texts from new perspectives.

48:36

Interviewer

Yes.

48:40

Judy

I think that's probably...

48:43

Interviewer

Yeah.

48:45

Do you think that inclusive language

48:46

is being used in churches today?

48:48

Presbyterian churches?

48:51

Judy

Yeah, we belong to a UTC church

48:54

here in Seattle and they are very strong

48:57

on inclusive language.

49:00

Interviewer

Yes.

49:02

Judy

So it's...

49:04

I think the more progressive churches are.

49:07

They're very tuned in to inclusive language,

49:12

but now, you know, there are other churches

49:16

that are not.

49:18

I mean Seattle Presbytery

49:19

(Judy laughing)

49:23

Well, I will tell you this when the tape is off.

49:24

Interviewer

Sure, that's fine.

49:28

We can have that conversation later.

49:29

That sounds good, yes.

49:31

So what does re-imagining mean today?

49:33

And by that I don't just mean re-imagining

49:36

in terms of the conference,

49:39

but what needs to be re-imagined today in the church?

49:40

Judy

I think continuing where we left off before.

49:45

It's not a perfect world.

49:48

It's not a perfect Presbytery.

49:52

It's not a perfect other denominations.

49:53

I mean, we still have our issues.

49:57

I mean, there's a whole lot of,

50:00

you know, racial stuff, gay and lesbian

50:01

transgendered people are still not welcomed

50:05

in most churches

50:08

and I think my denomination is one of those.

50:15

It's not as good,

50:17

as inclusive with gay and lesbian people,

50:19

but the UTC church where we are now

50:22

is very, very inclusive.

50:25

It's just to me what it can be,

50:29

and that's why we're here in this particular church.

50:32

What else would I say about that?

50:39

I guess I don't have anymore to say about that.

50:44

Interviewer

Well that's great.

50:46

That is really good.

50:47

I have one last very specific question

50:49

and that is we're developing a re-imagining website

50:51

and it's gonna be both archival,

50:54

collecting materials,

50:57

but also hopefully collecting resources

50:58

for today for people to use

51:01

and we're looking for ideas about

51:03

what should be included in it,

51:04

how to let people know about it.

51:07

Any ideas you have would be really helpful.

51:08

Judy

Well, I thought about that

51:12

and I don't know.

51:14

I think it was disappointing to a lot of us

51:17

who realized that re-imagining was not

51:20

gonna last forever.

51:29

I mean, we couldn't keep it going forever

51:31

because it was such an inspiration

51:35

for us, you know, for a number of years,

51:37

but, you know, it finally did go by the wayside

51:40

in terms of being on the website,

51:45

on a website.

51:50

So what it needs now.

51:52

I don't know.

51:53

It needs money.

51:54

Interviewer

Yes.

51:55

(Interviewer laughing)

51:56

True.

51:57

Judy

Needs money.

51:58

That's always a big thing.

51:59

As broad as you could make it, you know.

52:05

Being careful not to limit it in terms

52:09

of just mainline denominations because

52:13

mainline denominations, you know, are struggling.

52:15

Interviewer

So when you say it's broad,

52:21

would you mean broad in terms of Christianity?

52:22

Broad in terms of interfaith?

52:25

What are you thinking?

52:27

Judy

Both. Both.

52:29

We have mainline denominations here in Seattle,

52:33

but we've got some offshoots here

52:37

that are really large churches

52:39

and my guess is that the inclusive language

52:43

is not pronounced in some of those churches

52:45

and how you get that, I don't know.

52:50

I think that's a toughie.

52:52

You know, people writing, I suppose,

52:58

some of these,

53:01

some feminist, the old feminist preachers,

53:03

I would think some of what they have written

53:11

would be helpful on our website.

53:15

Interviewer

Yeah.

53:20

And it's fine if you can't think of anyone specific.

53:22

Is there anyone in particular you're thinking of?

53:24

Judy

Hmm...no.

53:31

You know, I hadn't really thought of that.

53:35

Hadn't really thought of it.

53:36

Interviewer

That's fine.

53:39

Well Judy, this had been incredibly helpful.

53:40

Is there anything we haven't discussed

53:42

that you would like to add?

53:44

Judy

Oh, one of the things

53:47

that I remember was Dolores,

53:49

has anybody talked about Dolores Williams?

53:52

Interviewer

Little bit.

53:54

Say some more about it.

53:55

Tell me.

53:56

Judy

Dolores Williams was one of the

53:58

speakers for re-imagining and she

54:02

kept saying, you know,

54:04

I wanna talk about what Jesus lived for,

54:10

not what Jesus died for

54:13

and then she talked about all the blood and guts

54:15

that were hanging on the cross or something like that

54:17

and the whole re-imagining just erupted

54:20

with hoots and hollers and agreement with her.

54:24

She's an African American professor, I think.

54:31

Or was at that time at seminary,

54:34

but for her to say that was just incredibly real,

54:37

you know, for a lot of people.

54:44

Interviewer

Were you at that workshop, that session?

54:47

Judy

That was part of re-imagining.

54:50

I mean, that was part.

54:52

She was one of the speakers.

54:53

The main re-imagining conference in '93.

54:55

And when she said that,

55:01

boy, she got a lot of flack from that.

55:02

Interviewer

Yes, she did, yep.

55:04

Is there anything else?

55:11

That was helpful too.

55:12

Judy

Um...

55:14

Let me see, I gave you John Mild's name.

55:18

Interviewer

Yeah.

55:21

And we're still recording now.

55:22

Judy

Yeah, okay.

55:25

I don't think so.

55:26

(Judy laughing)

55:30

I've said a lot already.

55:31

Interviewer

You did, and it was wonderful.

55:33

Thank you.

55:35

I'm gonna turn off the recording now

55:36

if that's okay with you?

55:37

Judy

Yes.

55:40

Interviewer

Great, great, thank you.

55:40

Strausz-Clement, Judith

Transcript

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Sallie Bingham Center for Women's History & Culture