Spann, Hilda / Re-Imagining Collection / Duke Digital Repository

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Hilda, I am so grateful that you are

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willing to be interviewed, I appreciate it.

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I'm gonna first ask some basic background information,

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and first of all if you could say

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and spell your name please.

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Well I'm the reverend doctor Hilda A Stann.

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H-I-L-D-A, middle initial A, Stann.

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S-T-A-N-N.

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Wonderful, and your names are in the

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Time of Re-imagining was?

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Hilda, Reverend Hilda Kuester.

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And Kuester is spelled again?

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K-U-E-S-T-E-R.

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Wonderful, and you obviously are clergy

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and what is your denominational affiliation?

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I don't have any anymore.

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And at the time of Re-imagining, you were,

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did you have one at that point?

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I was United Church of Christ and Disciples of Christ.

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I had dual ordination.

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Okay, wonderful, and Hilda when and where were you born?

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I was born in 1953 in Westfield, New York.

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Okay, and where did you go to graduate or divinity school?

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I went to divinity school at

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Colgate Rochester Crozer Divinity School

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in Rochester, New York, and that's where I received

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my Masters of Divinity and my Doctorate of Divinity.

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Wonderful, great!

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And what work or ministry were you doing

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at the time of Re-imagining?

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I was an associate minister at the

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United Church of Christ in St. Paul.

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Okay, good, and what work or ministry

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did you do after Re-imagining?

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Within two years, I lost my job at the church

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and left the mainstream church, and I started

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an alternative church called, Circle of Life,

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in Roseville, New York, and it was ahead of its time.

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There was a cadre of people that were faithful,

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but it didn't grow, it was very much like Sacred Journey

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is now, at (mumbles) avenue, at a Methodist church.

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So how would you describe ...

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I've been to Sacred Journey, but for people

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who aren't familiar with it, how would you

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describe what that service was like?

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Very eclectic, using more readings

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than just Biblical readings.

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Sermons or talks could be on other subjects,

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except difficult subjects.

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No sexist language.

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Hymns were all modern, and we brought in

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a lot of the arts to contribute to worship,

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performers of different sorts.

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Oh, it sounds exciting, yes.

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Did you do some work or ministry after that?

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No.

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Okay, good.

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I mean, I worked but not in a ministry.

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Sure, of course, yes.

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So Hilda, how and when did you first become

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aware of feminist theology?

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My first year of seminary, which was 1976, 77.

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I think it was 77.

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And in our first semester, we were introduced

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to liberation theologies, and feminist

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theology was one of them.

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Now this might be a time to tell you about

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my doctoral dissertation years later,

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not that many years later.

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It was Feminist Theology and Battered Women.

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So we're back in the 1980s talking about

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with women as sort of, again, ahead of its time,

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and the committee rejected my thesis last minute,

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and said that feminist theology wasn't

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a real discipline.

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I went back a year later and worked with a man

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whose discipline was practical theology,

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and that was able to get through

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because it was a real discipline.

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Wow, that's amazing.

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Yeah, wow.

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(laughs) Well, tell me, this is fascinating.

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Tell me how you chose that topic for your dissertation.

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Well, as a feminist, I was very aware

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of violence against women, and I felt that

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the church contributed to it with its patriarchal theology

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like Eve was to blame for original sin,

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and Mary Magadelene is all the women

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in the New Testament, and she's an adulteress

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and the negative image of women in the church

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degraded them, and that contributed to men

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seeing them as property and something to abuse.

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Right, fascinating.

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So you did finally ...

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I think it was 1989, that you finished it, is that right?

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Yes.

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Great, thank you.

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It kept a lot of its feminist feminism,

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but had to, the last chapter was practical theology,

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which was what can the church do to help?

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So it wasn't an extreme change to the thesis.

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Interesting.

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But that's how you had to re-shape it

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to have it get past?

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Yeah, amazing, great.

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Moving to Re-imagining, what was your relationship

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to the Re-imagining community?

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How did you get involved with it, Hilda?

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Well, I think that it started in the Twin Cities,

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and I was a woman in ministry there that was alone,

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and I was asked to be on the ritual committee,

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that was headed by Sue Sidemartin,

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and we designed the rituals for the entire weekend.

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I would love to hear what that was like, Hilda.

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What was it like being on that planning committee?

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Well, it was, they're a democratic planning committee,

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a lot of talented women.

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Sue Sidemartin was known for liturgy in her

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post at St. Calva.

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She was a very good leader,

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it was a very democratic process,

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and I remember when I wrote my ritual,

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I wrote it and came back to the groups

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and they had to decide whether to take the risk on it.

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And Sue Sidemartin took the biggest risk.

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They tried to get women from all walks of life,

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and there was a black pastor,

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there was a native american spiritual leader,

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so it was a good group.

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I would love to hear more about when

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you brought that ritual back, which I really

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wanna talk to you more about, 'cause it's so important.

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So what was the conversation like?

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Was there some concern about that it was risky?

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How do you recall that conversation?

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There wasn't really debate about it.

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Sue Sidemartin loved it immediately,

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and thought it was poetry.

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And I don't know, no-one disputed the idea.

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They liked it, they read it, they liked it,

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they liked the idea of milk and honey verses

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communion for the closing Sunday worship.

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Yeah.

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They liked the language of the ritual,

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so no, within the group itself, there

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was no concern expressed at the time.

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Yes.

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Could we talk a little bit about your

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process of writing, I've ready your essay

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and remembered in Re-imagining, and you

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said you wrote it at one sitting.

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Well, I had been writing poetry

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since I was a teenager, and I always

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when I was in ministry, wrote all my liturgy,

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all of my prayers, all my calls to worship,

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and all my (mumbles).

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(interviewer laughs)

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So that imagery, and I also was a student of the Bible

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as opposed to the Old Testament, so I mean,

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all the imagery was in my mind.

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I also had adopted two children, I was a mother.

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Could you say more about that how you

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came up with the idea of the milk and honey?

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Where did that come from?

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Well, of course, the Biblical story of land

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flowing with milk and honey, and honestly,

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there were sensual tones of the whole ritual

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and those are sensual ideas, milk and honey

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are sensual, if you think about it,

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and I also have rejected the idea of communion

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as body and blood, years before,

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and would not say that in my churches.

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When we had communion, I would do it

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at a remembrance dinner.

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So some of it was just inspiration.

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Yes.

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You know, you talked about it, and obviously

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it's so much about affirming women's sexuality

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and sensuality, could you say

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a little bit more about that?

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Yeah.

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Well, women's bodies have been so demonized,

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as the temptresses and we're the great sin

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and to celebrate women's bodies, we produce milk,

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we are pregnant and have babies.

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Honey, you can think of honey as a sexual food.

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But also it's a delicious taste in the mouth.

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So I tried to think of all the positive aspects

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of women's bodies, and not just women as giving birth,

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but women that didn't give birth.

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They're nurturing, they're loving.

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Yes.

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Do you think either consciously, or unconsciously,

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your dissertation on feminist theology

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and violence against women, did that connect

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to this ritual, or shape it in any way?

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Oh, I think so, because it was largely about

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how the church had contributed to sexism,

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and to the denigration of women,

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and so the celebration of women is the opposite.

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But also, Re-imagining, because I took

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that very seriously, and said, "I'm going to

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"throw out all pre-conceptions of what

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"a ritual should be in the church,

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"in a Protestant church, and what

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"the parameters should be", and the idea of

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Re-imagining hit me very hard.

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And the sky was the limit for me,

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and so when I was writing, that was my point of view.

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Yeah.

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Wonderful, yes.

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What was it like at the 1993 conference,

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when you were there and the ritual was done?

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What was it like to be present when that happened?

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It was overwhelming.

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Women were cheering and hooting and howling.

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That's sort of what I'd call, some of

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them were hooting and hollering.

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Yes.

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I mean, for one thing it's just a wonderful reaction

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among church women, because at least

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in the white church, we don't do much of

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that in church, but it was also

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such an affirmation, that it hit people hard so fast.

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It was very thrilling.

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And what would you say, what was that

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hooting and hollering about?

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Why were they reacting that way?

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I think because the prohibition to talk

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much about sexuality and sensuality in the church,

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coming from the old church canonical background

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of Protestantism and Catholicism too.

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And so it was something out in the open

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they may not have heard before.

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And it was right on as far as what

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women do celebrate about their bodies.

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And what they experience.

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But they don't get to celebrate in church.

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Yes.

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Earlier you mentioned something about communion,

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as you well know, we'll talk about this in a minute,

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part of the backlash was the idea that

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this was a substitution for communion,

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or I guess maybe a perversion of it

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would be more accurate.

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How did the ritual committee perceive the

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role of this particular ritual in the conference?

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I think we're looking for sort of a climax

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and closing, I shouldn't use that word.

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You know, a great ritual for the end.

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And that would affirm all the women there,

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it wasn't specific like the first time

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we had Native American drummers.

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That sort of culturally specific, as thrilling as it was.

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So there was no talk of communion,

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in the committee, that came out of my mouth.

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There was no talk of communion.

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I think that was in my mind as the

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sharing of food is also very central

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to women's experience and the providing

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the food and being head of the family

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around the table at the dinner table for Jewish women.

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So I did not abandon the idea of a meal.

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Yes.

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But the committee did not discuss that,

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and they gave me no parameters to begin with at all.

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We were on an exciting ritual for the

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last day of the conference.

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And you provided an exciting ritual.

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(laughs).

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I guess so.

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You also mentioned in your essay

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that this really encouraged you

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to make feminine images for God more central

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in your spiritual life.

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Could you say more about that?

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I think it's ...

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Again, this is kind of linking to the past.

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But I think I had moved towards

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more of a neutral idea of God.

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And my church (mumbles) did not permit

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me to do He and She, God He and She,

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God our Mother and Father, that would not

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have been acceptable.

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So I had moved towards a more neutral

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view of God, or more emphasis on Jesus

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as a teacher, and like the hymns

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I would pick out would kind of be

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more about Jesus than God, the Father, omnipotent, etc.

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The worship.

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And also my experience was already then

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influenced by Native American spirituality,

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so I also was seeing the spirituality in nature.

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But I have not gotten to the point

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where I could just focus, just give

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me a chance to focus entirely on feminine imagery

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to the exclusion of everything else.

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For a little while, I was re-imagining

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what that would be like.

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And so yes, it stayed with me, because ...

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And it influenced by leadership at the church in worship.

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I would love to hear about that.

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How did it influence your

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leadership of the church in worship?

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Well, I introduced a few things for

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Re-imagining, including the song I

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can tell you about later.

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Yes.

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And I talked some about Sophia in my talks,

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my sermons, and I was even more eulogies

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about making sure there was no sexist language,

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and trying to emphasize a nurturing God too,

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taking that imagery of motherhood,

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maybe not calling it motherhood

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but emphasizing a nurturing God.

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So I had to be careful but what I did

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was fairly well accepted by a good many people.

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Was it?

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Yeah, then when I started the circle of lectures,

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it was very well accepted.

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Yes.

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You almost expected for me to use

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a variety of images of God.

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And remind me how long did that last?

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The circle of life.

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Not a lot longer than a year.

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Okay, yes.

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We got a store front church, and we had

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a little store gift shop, and then

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the back was the church, I think

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that was a bit head of its time too,

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or didn't fit too well for mainstream Protestants,

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where evangelicals had been meeting

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in different places all along,

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they were used to sanctuary.

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But that's what it was, a store front church

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for a little more than a year.

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And I'm just curious, how many people

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would you say attended during that time?

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Well, there were about 25 people involved

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who were members, the attendance would be about 18.

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Yeah.

19:23

I wanted to get back to that 93 conference,

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and I know it's been a long time.

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Are there other memories you have of that conference

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and what that experience was like for you?

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What was wonderful there to see ...

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I'd been going for a long time there,

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Women in Leadership tended to have

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a different style than men, and they

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were something I liked very much,

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but this was the first time I got to see

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it in action on all level, and that was

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something that the leadership was very

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thinking ahead of time, including the ritual committee.

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So really not having any kind of hierarchical

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structure, so that in the experience,

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so we sat at a round table.

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We didn't have one leader, we shared leadership

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in discussions, and it was just wonderful

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to experience women's style, not hierarchical,

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more cooperative, sharing of power,

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the whole weekend, it was just fantastic.

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And again, like Re-imagining, it made it

20:42

seem possible in the future.

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That organizations could be like that.

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Is that what led to your organizing,

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those circle of life church?

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No, not really.

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I lost my job at the church in a very negative way.

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I didn't want to leave ministries,

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so I started something on my own.

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Sure.

21:16

That makes sense.

21:18

Shall we talk about your song?

21:20

Tell me about the song that's in the Re-imagining songbook.

21:23

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Yeah, this was after the conference,

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and they were soliciting music for

21:30

the Re-imagining songbook, and it gave

21:32

me a chance to be a (mumbles),

21:38

so I took the Re-imagining from the

21:40

milk and honey ritual where we referred to

21:43

God as Sophia, and used it in this song.

21:46

I'll read it to you, because it also

21:55

mentioned what we're not using as language,

22:00

and what we're doing as an alternative.

22:05

So verse 1: "I came to life in your dark waters,

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"made for the Earth, conceived in your sea.

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"and when I'm broken, lost in some desert,

22:17

"you'll steal your life's blood, to rescue me".

22:20

Here's the chorus: "Some call you Lord,

22:24

"Some call you father, some say the Godhead,

22:28

"some Trinity, but when I'm aching from life's hard labors,

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"I cry my mother, come shelter me".

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Verse 2: "You soar above me like a great eagle,

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"I find my comfort beneath your wings,

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"and when I go through the darkest valleys,

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"you are the one friend always with me".

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And then there would be the chorus.

22:56

The last verse 3: "You are creation,

22:59

"you are still waters, you are the pasture,

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"you are the sea, you are Sophia,

23:07

"my source, my wisdom, you are the true light, guiding me".

23:10

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Oh Hilda, that is beautiful and powerful!

23:17

Really poetic!

23:21

Tell me how-

23:23

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They really love it.

23:24

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I know, me too.

23:25

Tell me me about the images in there

23:27

and about writing this, I'd love to hear about it.

23:29

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Well, by the way, the melody is

23:32

a lovely folk melody that I heard first

23:34

from Marina McKinnon, so it's

23:36

an old folk melody from Ireland.

23:39

Well I was quite a student of the Bible,

23:42

I studied both Hebrew and Greek in the seminary.

23:46

A lot of these images are from the Bible.

23:50

Dark waters refers to Earth.

23:54

The Earth of course, many native spiritualities

23:58

talk about the Earth and the Goddess, our mother.

24:04

Conceived in your sea, again is

24:08

the waters of birth, in the womb.

24:10

But then broken and lost in the desert,

24:15

that sounds like a psalm.

24:17

And steal your life's blood to rescue me,

24:20

so I referred sort of to Jesus' death,

24:23

but thought of it more in terms of women,

24:28

I know women will give their lives

24:31

to rescue their children, and they often have.

24:33

Like during the holocaust.

24:37

So let's see, the great eagle of course,

24:42

I find comfort between your wings,

24:45

that was partly a reference to the song

24:47

that was popular then, I can't remember the name, can you?

24:49

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Is it by Michael Jonkis?

24:56

Let's see, yes.

25:00

I think I know what you're talking about,

25:03

but it's escaping me too, yes, go ahead.

25:05

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Tender valleys was from Psalm 23.

25:09

And back to creations, used pasture,

25:13

you leave me in green pastures from the Psalm.

25:18

Then Sophia's referring to the actual testament

25:21

reference to Sophia, as wisdom.

25:25

And then true light guiding me

25:30

is from the Gospel of John, first chapter.

25:31

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Yes.

25:35

There's so much imagery in there.

25:38

And I wanted to ask you specifically about Sophia.

25:39

You wrote about creating the Sophia ritual,

25:42

use Sophia, tell me about why that image

25:45

is so important to you, or was so important to you.

25:48

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I think it was important to me to

25:52

use an image from the Bible.

25:55

And I wanted to start from that place,

25:57

because many women were starting from that place,

26:03

and that was still an important part of my life

26:07

as a minister, and to my feeling that

26:12

as the clearest biblical reference

26:16

to a feminine image that could be seen as a deity, as God.

26:19

There's a lot of women heroes in the Bible, and that,

26:28

but I wanted an image that was used more,

26:35

even though quite abstractly to refer to something divine.

26:38

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Do you recall, by any chance, how you first

26:43

encountered the Sophia image?

26:46

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I'm sure I read all the feminist theologians

26:51

at the time, I'm sure it was in a book I read.

26:56

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Sure.

27:00

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I was very influenced by feminist theology,

27:04

I wish I could get you a specific reference,

27:07

but I can't, but I was certainly not the

27:09

first person to point out that feminine imagery for God.

27:11

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Do you remember during the ritual committee,

27:18

the planning committee, because Sophia

27:20

became a very important image at Re-imagining,

27:21

do you recall any discussion about that particular image?

27:24

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It was used throughout the conference, wasn't it?

27:37

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It was, yeah, (mumbles) bless Sophia.

27:39

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I'm not sure why.

27:41

I'm really not sure why.

27:43

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Sure, yeah.

27:44

Well Hilda-

27:47

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I don't think it started with me,

27:48

I think it was sort of agreed upon

27:49

across the board, we influenced each other mutually.

27:52

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Yes.

27:59

That sounds like part of the process,

28:00

there was a lot of mutuality.

28:01

Yes.

28:04

I wanted to ask you about the backlash.

28:06

First of all, did it effect you directly?

28:08

The backlash after the 1993 conference.

28:12

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Well, I said I lost my job at my church

28:15

within two years after the conference,

28:19

and at first, right after the conference,

28:23

it seemed like my church was fairly oblivious to it.

28:26

The conference itself.

28:30

And my positions was actually added

28:36

because people liked me, they added

28:39

in a (mumbles) pastor in.

28:42

So I was quite popular, at least I thought I was.

28:43

But I think that as I became more feminist.

28:47

I didn't become more feminist,

28:56

my liturgy became more feminist.

28:57

-

Yes.

28:59

-

And my sermons, I took a little more

29:00

liberty with not necessarily preaching off the Bible,

29:01

and also in my liturgy, I did use some

29:07

non-Biblical sources for text sometimes.

29:11

And I think there were people that really didn't like that.

29:15

And for some reason, I was the kind of person

29:18

people never said that to my face.

29:20

So when there was question of firing me,

29:23

a lot of those people came out of the woodwork,

29:27

that I was just too radical, and too liberal.

29:31

So it wasn't a direct backlash,

29:35

or an immediate backlash, but I think

29:38

it was part of what happened to me.

29:40

-

Yes.

29:44

And well Hilda, first of all I am so sorry

29:46

to hear this, and how did you react to that?

29:47

What was that experience like?

29:51

-

(laughs) I'm not sure what you mean, how did I ...

29:55

-

Well how did you deal with it?

29:59

That's probably a better way to put it, thank you.

30:01

-

Well they were firing me, I thought it was

30:04

totally unjust, and I fought like crazy,

30:07

and I did myself in that way, because

30:10

then the United Church of Christ,

30:12

because I fought their policy and their process,

30:14

would no longer license me.

30:17

So I did myself in, but I thought I was justified.

30:19

And the experience ...

30:25

The one thing they said was they wanted safety.

30:30

They didn't want conflict, they didn't want me

30:35

to raise any issues, they just wanted

30:38

a nice, peaceful church, and that turned

30:41

me off so much to Christianity,

30:43

because I was studying the holocaust at the time,

30:47

and it felt very bad, the people were

30:52

interpreting the church as a safe place

30:55

and not as champions of justice,

30:58

not as fires for justice, or martyrs for justice, you know?

31:03

-

Yes.

31:07

-

I came away feeling very few

31:12

Christians could walk the walk.

31:14

I don't want to put too much of my bitterness in,

31:20

but that's how I came away.

31:23

-

Sure.

31:25

And as you think about the backlash in general

31:27

against the Re-imagining conference,

31:29

how would you account for it?

31:32

What do you think caused that?

31:34

-

This is what I think happened.

31:40

The liberal press wasn't very present,

31:42

and this conservative church press

31:46

showed up sort of late on, so they

31:48

started to show up for the Sophia milk and honey ritual,

31:51

and they didn't understand it, they didn't

31:55

have any idea why we were doing it.

32:00

They didn't understand what Re-imagining meant,

32:02

but it was partly an exercise in doing

32:05

something different, so of course they,

32:11

like you said, they called it a perversion.

32:14

Of communion.

32:17

And some of it was just really unfortunate

32:19

press coverage, at the very end of the conference,

32:22

and it was tragic for some of the women.

32:26

They lost their jobs.

32:35

They had so much to contribute to the church.

32:38

Really didn't do what they were charged with,

32:49

which was perverting Christianity.

32:51

It was an exercise in imagination,

32:54

and it was a beautiful exercise of the imagination.

32:56

No-one deserves to lose their livelihood over it.

33:03

-

And as you well know, and you already alluded to this,

33:09

the milk and honey ritual was

33:10

often one of the major aspects of the conference

33:14

that was specifically mentioned and targeted.

33:17

Were you surprised by that?

33:21

How did you react to their targeting that particular ritual?

33:23

-

No, I wasn't surprised by it.

33:35

I was surprised that it got taken in

33:37

isolated and out of context of the whole conference.

33:41

-

Yes.

33:44

-

Again, I was surprised that intelligent

33:48

church leaders couldn't see that it was

33:51

an exercise in imagination.

33:55

That's what spirituality should be, stretching yourself.

33:58

I found that very disappointing, I felt very bad.

34:07

I feel to blame, but I felt very bad

34:11

for the women who lost their jobs.

34:14

But it made me very negative towards church hierarchies.

34:18

-

Yeah.

34:25

-

Especially the Presbyterian and Roman Catholic Church,

34:27

those two women I knew well that were fired.

34:32

I did wanna say that, we talked about

34:37

me losing my job and leaving the church.

34:41

Re-imagining was related to that.

34:45

I feel like I re-imagined myself

34:49

to the point that I couldn't fit

34:52

in a church that had so many vestiges

34:55

of patriarchy anymore.

34:58

I compared myself to Mary Daley, not that

35:02

I'm as brilliant as her, but she also got,

35:05

her feminist theology ended up taking her outside

35:08

any kind of traditional church theology.

35:13

And so Re-imagining was a part of me

35:18

moving beyond that, and at the time

35:21

there wasn't a place for people like me.

35:24

People suggested I become Unitarian,

35:27

but that was not gonna happen.

35:31

-

Why wasn't that gonna happen?

35:35

-

But Re-imagined-

35:36

-

I'm sorry.

35:37

-

I had done so much education and

35:39

so much continuing it and sort of a doctorate

35:42

and I didn't wanna go back to school to become a Unitarian.

35:44

-

Yes.

35:49

A moment ago, you alluded to the Presbyterian woman

35:51

and the Roman Catholic woman you were close to

35:54

who were fired, who were you thinking of there?

35:56

-

I'm trying to-

36:00

Sue Sidematin was the Roman Catholic woman

36:02

who headed the liturgy committee.

36:03

The woman that was Presbyterian, I'm not remembering,

36:08

but I think she was a co-author of the Re-imagining,

36:10

Remembering Re-imagining?

36:13

-

Are you thinking of Mary-Ann Lundy,

36:16

who was at the national headquarters?

36:18

-

Yeah.

36:19

-

Yes, yes.

36:20

I actually interviewed her, as you know,

36:21

Sue Sidemartin passed away.

36:23

She was very important in this.

36:26

So would you say she was fired because of Re-imagining?

36:28

-

Oh yes.

36:33

Oh yes, it was very soon after, and yes.

36:35

Other people didn't say that.

36:39

Because I was pretty clear about it,

36:42

I continued to see her afterwards.

36:44

-

Yes, well would you feel comfortable talking about that?

36:47

Because I've heard some people allude to it,

36:49

but I'm not sure that people knew that.

36:52

How would you describe what happened with her?

36:55

Because I can't interview her.

36:58

-

The authorities at St. Thomas

37:01

had seen the publicity and decided to fire her,

37:08

and that's what she told me.

37:15

I saw her in person afterwards several times.

37:18

When they fired her, that's what

37:21

they referred to as the reason,

37:25

was her participation in the Re-imagining conference.

37:28

-

And how did she deal with that?

37:33

-

Oh gee, I don't know, but I always ...

37:37

Felt that her cancer couldn't have been

37:42

helped by her distress she was under

37:45

losing her job and losing not just her job

37:48

but her career, her career was liturgy,

37:53

her calling was creating liturgy.

37:55

-

Yes.

37:59

You know, you've already started doing that,

38:03

you talked about Re-imagining as a beautiful

38:06

exercise in imagination, which is a lovely phrase.

38:08

Are there any other ways you would define Re-imagining?

38:12

-

Well I think that was the

38:20

intention of those who organized it.

38:22

But I think it was transforming to a lot of women.

38:25

For one thing, they could see

38:28

what was possible for feminist Christians,

38:30

for a non-hierarchical spiritual community.

38:38

For trying to be inclusive of other spiritualities

38:48

or other points of view, liberation theology,

38:52

I can't say, the Latin American Marista,

38:55

how do you say it?

39:02

-

Mujerista?

39:03

-

Yeah, that was not a word I remember

39:05

being used at the time, although

39:07

I know we had a speaker from Latin America.

39:09

Just the inclusiveness and the diversity

39:16

accepted within the conference made ...

39:19

Some of that you could have had

39:25

without calling it Re-imagining.

39:26

It was just that women or feminists were in charge

39:28

of organizing a wonderful conference.

39:30

-

And Hilda, in some ways you've already answered this,

39:39

but sometimes I've found it's helpful

39:42

to ask the question and see if you have other thoughts.

39:43

What would you say, what aspects of Re-imagining

39:46

were most significant to you, and why?

39:48

-

The thing that I remember most is the table time

39:59

with other women, and you stayed with them

40:02

the whole weekend, and there was a really wonderful

40:05

dialogue that took place there.

40:09

And at the end, we gave each other presents,

40:14

the last day, and I don't remember what I gave,

40:17

but I remember receiving a shawl that

40:20

this women had (mumbles) a prayer shawl.

40:23

So that feeling at that table

40:31

is the thing I remember the most.

40:33

Then the contribution of the arts,

40:37

like the native american drummers.

40:42

There was some dance I believe,

40:46

some dance performance within it.

40:48

But honestly, for me the speakers

40:51

were not saying anything that new to me,

40:56

because I was well read, but I think

40:59

for some of the women, that was very important.

41:02

-

Yes.

41:09

And Hilda, how did your involvement in Re-imagining

41:12

change your perspective on feminist theology,

41:13

and/or the church, if it did?

41:16

-

Well, I think I said, I imagined myself

41:20

right outside the Christian theology,

41:24

what would be considered Christian theology,

41:27

because I became more feminist.

41:30

Mary Daley was a big influence on my thinking,

41:35

and she was moving outside the church.

41:38

You could call it impatience.

41:43

I see Sacred Journey today doing what I needed back then.

41:47

I wasn't patient enough for the patriarchy

41:52

to go away within the church.

41:54

-

Yeah, you're living in New York now, correct?

42:01

-

Mhmm.

42:05

-

So you mentioned Sacred Journey,

42:06

how do you have contact with them?

42:08

-

My sons live in the Twin Cities,

42:11

and my friends from back when I was in the Twin Cities

42:14

who were involved with my circle of life,

42:18

so I try to go every year once or twice to see everyone.

42:20

-

Wonderful.

42:25

-

And it wasn't easy for me to go back into a church.

42:26

But Donna described Sacred Journey,

42:29

my friend Donna Lawn, and so I visited with her

42:31

and was quite comfortable.

42:34

-

And thanks much to her, because she's the one

42:37

who got me in touch with you,

42:39

so I'm very appreciative to her.

42:41

-

With the name change, yeah.

42:43

-

Yes.

42:45

I couldn't find you!

42:46

-

It might be why I haven't heard more feedback.

42:47

It's so thrilling to know that people know about

42:50

milk and honey ritual, and that it influences them.

42:53

-

Yes, and it has.

42:59

Do you think that Re-imagining made any

43:01

significant contributions to Christian theology or liturgy?

43:03

-

Oh, I think so very much.

43:08

Besides bringing thousands of women there

43:13

who were interested but not educated necessarily,

43:16

they were just starting seminary, or they were lay people,

43:21

I think it was very educational for them

43:25

about what feminist theology had to say, and to contribute,

43:27

and they went on to contribute to their churches

43:32

and be a part of their churches' lives.

43:34

But I also think it pushed it a little more radical.

43:37

In some places, not everyone went away feeling that way,

43:44

but in some places it did.

43:47

-

Yeah.

43:49

And although you are not involved in a church today,

43:51

it's almost 25 years later.

43:54

What do you think of where many Christian churches are now?

43:57

Is it where you thought they would be in 2017?

44:02

I'm thinking of inclusive language, in terms of liturgy.

44:08

Women's leadership.

44:14

-

Yeah, certainly there's been ...

44:17

When I graduated with my Master's of Divinity,

44:22

there were very few women going into ministry,

44:26

and that changed drastically just in five years, ten years.

44:29

So I've seen a big change in the church,

44:34

and then accepting of women's leadership and ministry.

44:36

And yes, I see a slow move towards more inclusive language

44:41

in mainline Protestantism, I don't know,

44:46

I can't speak for the Roman Catholic Church.

44:51

But I know in terms of music, in that, their liturgies

44:56

have become more diverse, but the evangelicals

44:59

feels like the backlash.

45:04

And the fundamentalist church, the extreme

45:07

embracing of patriarchal language, "Our father, God",

45:10

the hierarchies, the women are subject to their husband.

45:18

It's just the other extreme, I think

45:24

they've gotten more entrenched and larger

45:28

as many churches have grown in some places.

45:31

-

Yes, that's helpful.

45:36

Now, what does Re-imagining mean today?

45:39

And I want to be clear, I don't mean necessarily

45:41

just Re-imagining in terms of the Re-imagining community,

45:43

but what do you think needs to be re-imagined today?

45:46

In the church, or in society.

45:50

-

One thing I still see in churches,

45:59

is that they have trouble embracing all types of people.

46:04

I see the poor and less educated going to

46:09

a certain type of church, and not being embraced

46:13

in middle class churches.

46:15

I don't see that embracing of diversity.

46:20

My seminary was (mumbles).

46:23

And I don't see the black and white churches

46:28

coming together the way I hoped,

46:31

because a black worship is so fantastic

46:33

and so alive and so emotive,

46:36

and I was hoping that white church more.

46:39

-

Yes.

46:43

-

And I think churches are struggling

46:45

for membership, for relevance.

46:47

And they're also competing with people with very-

46:51

-

Yes.

46:55

You mentioned you looked at the Re-imagining website,

46:58

which is now up, and whether ...

47:01

What would you like to see on that website?

47:03

Or what did you find helpful?

47:07

Do you have any suggestions, I guess?

47:09

-

Sure, yeah, I didn't have a lot of time

47:12

to spend with it, but I think the more

47:15

resources that can go up there for liturgy would be nice.

47:18

And whatever would be appropriate for women's narratives

47:28

about the Re-imagining conference and the community.

47:32

-

Yes.

47:37

-

Maybe resources for young women who want a mentor.

47:40

-

Yes, that's great.

47:45

-

If you wanna pick an older woman's brain.

47:47

-

(laughs) So kind of have a mentoring,

47:50

trying to set up mentors between older and younger women

47:53

pastors, is that what you're thinking of?

47:57

-

Well, even less formal, where you can

48:00

have a conversation, a dialogue, a resource.

48:03

-

Yes.

48:06

And I could see it would be beneficial

48:08

for both parties to do that.

48:09

-

Oh yes.

48:11

-

Intergenerational.

48:12

Yeah, that's a great idea.

48:13

Thank you.

48:15

Is there anything that we haven't discussed

48:17

that you would like to add?

48:19

-

I'm just looking at the questions quickly.

48:26

-

Sure, yes please.

48:28

-

No, I think I covered it.

48:35

No, I think I covered it, and it was probably

48:41

the highlight of my career in terms of liturgy.

48:46

The Re-imagining conference, to see what

48:50

women could design for worship, not just my own.

48:52

But it really was very exciting,

48:56

the highlight of my career for liturgy.

48:58

I have to say, the highlight for my career

49:01

for helping people is a whole other story.

49:03

I remember being involved with this person

49:06

and that family and (mumbles).

49:08

That's different, that's pastoral.

49:11

But this was the highlight of my career

49:14

as far as ritual and liturgy.

49:16

-

Wow.

49:20

Well that's a lovely way to end,

49:21

and I want to thank you again, Hilda,

49:22

for this wonderful interview, and for your wisdom.

49:24

And I'm gonna turn off the recording now.

49:28

-

Okay.

49:30

Spann, Hilda

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Sallie Bingham Center for Women's History & Culture