Spann, Hilda
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- | Hilda, I am so grateful that you are | 0:02 |
willing to be interviewed, I appreciate it. | 0:04 | |
I'm gonna first ask some basic background information, | 0:06 | |
and first of all if you could say | 0:10 | |
and spell your name please. | 0:11 | |
- | Well I'm the reverend doctor Hilda A Stann. | 0:16 |
H-I-L-D-A, middle initial A, Stann. | 0:20 | |
S-T-A-N-N. | 0:25 | |
- | Wonderful, and your names are in the | 0:30 |
Time of Re-imagining was? | 0:32 | |
- | Hilda, Reverend Hilda Kuester. | 0:35 |
- | And Kuester is spelled again? | 0:39 |
- | K-U-E-S-T-E-R. | 0:42 |
- | Wonderful, and you obviously are clergy | 0:45 |
and what is your denominational affiliation? | 0:47 | |
- | I don't have any anymore. | 0:51 |
- | And at the time of Re-imagining, you were, | 0:54 |
did you have one at that point? | 0:57 | |
- | I was United Church of Christ and Disciples of Christ. | 0:59 |
I had dual ordination. | 1:03 | |
- | Okay, wonderful, and Hilda when and where were you born? | 1:05 |
- | I was born in 1953 in Westfield, New York. | 1:11 |
- | Okay, and where did you go to graduate or divinity school? | 1:16 |
- | I went to divinity school at | 1:22 |
Colgate Rochester Crozer Divinity School | 1:24 | |
in Rochester, New York, and that's where I received | 1:28 | |
my Masters of Divinity and my Doctorate of Divinity. | 1:31 | |
- | Wonderful, great! | 1:36 |
And what work or ministry were you doing | 1:38 | |
at the time of Re-imagining? | 1:41 | |
- | I was an associate minister at the | 1:45 |
United Church of Christ in St. Paul. | 1:47 | |
- | Okay, good, and what work or ministry | 1:50 |
did you do after Re-imagining? | 1:52 | |
- | Within two years, I lost my job at the church | 1:55 |
and left the mainstream church, and I started | 2:01 | |
an alternative church called, Circle of Life, | 2:08 | |
in Roseville, New York, and it was ahead of its time. | 2:11 | |
There was a cadre of people that were faithful, | 2:16 | |
but it didn't grow, it was very much like Sacred Journey | 2:21 | |
is now, at (mumbles) avenue, at a Methodist church. | 2:25 | |
- | So how would you describe ... | 2:31 |
I've been to Sacred Journey, but for people | 2:34 | |
who aren't familiar with it, how would you | 2:36 | |
describe what that service was like? | 2:37 | |
- | Very eclectic, using more readings | 2:41 |
than just Biblical readings. | 2:44 | |
Sermons or talks could be on other subjects, | 2:47 | |
except difficult subjects. | 2:50 | |
No sexist language. | 2:52 | |
Hymns were all modern, and we brought in | 2:55 | |
a lot of the arts to contribute to worship, | 2:58 | |
performers of different sorts. | 3:02 | |
- | Oh, it sounds exciting, yes. | 3:07 |
Did you do some work or ministry after that? | 3:09 | |
- | No. | 3:15 |
- | Okay, good. | 3:16 |
- | I mean, I worked but not in a ministry. | 3:17 |
- | Sure, of course, yes. | 3:20 |
So Hilda, how and when did you first become | 3:23 | |
aware of feminist theology? | 3:25 | |
- | My first year of seminary, which was 1976, 77. | 3:29 |
I think it was 77. | 3:34 | |
And in our first semester, we were introduced | 3:36 | |
to liberation theologies, and feminist | 3:40 | |
theology was one of them. | 3:43 | |
Now this might be a time to tell you about | 3:46 | |
my doctoral dissertation years later, | 3:48 | |
not that many years later. | 3:51 | |
It was Feminist Theology and Battered Women. | 3:54 | |
So we're back in the 1980s talking about | 3:58 | |
with women as sort of, again, ahead of its time, | 4:03 | |
and the committee rejected my thesis last minute, | 4:07 | |
and said that feminist theology wasn't | 4:13 | |
a real discipline. | 4:15 | |
I went back a year later and worked with a man | 4:17 | |
whose discipline was practical theology, | 4:20 | |
and that was able to get through | 4:24 | |
because it was a real discipline. | 4:26 | |
- | Wow, that's amazing. | 4:29 |
- | Yeah, wow. | 4:32 |
- | (laughs) Well, tell me, this is fascinating. | 4:33 |
Tell me how you chose that topic for your dissertation. | 4:36 | |
- | Well, as a feminist, I was very aware | 4:43 |
of violence against women, and I felt that | 4:45 | |
the church contributed to it with its patriarchal theology | 4:48 | |
like Eve was to blame for original sin, | 4:52 | |
and Mary Magadelene is all the women | 4:56 | |
in the New Testament, and she's an adulteress | 4:59 | |
and the negative image of women in the church | 5:02 | |
degraded them, and that contributed to men | 5:06 | |
seeing them as property and something to abuse. | 5:10 | |
- | Right, fascinating. | 5:15 |
So you did finally ... | 5:17 | |
I think it was 1989, that you finished it, is that right? | 5:19 | |
- | Yes. | 5:22 |
- | Great, thank you. | 5:24 |
- | It kept a lot of its feminist feminism, | 5:27 |
but had to, the last chapter was practical theology, | 5:30 | |
which was what can the church do to help? | 5:34 | |
So it wasn't an extreme change to the thesis. | 5:38 | |
- | Interesting. | 5:43 |
But that's how you had to re-shape it | 5:45 | |
to have it get past? | 5:47 | |
Yeah, amazing, great. | 5:49 | |
Moving to Re-imagining, what was your relationship | 5:50 | |
to the Re-imagining community? | 5:56 | |
How did you get involved with it, Hilda? | 5:57 | |
- | Well, I think that it started in the Twin Cities, | 6:00 |
and I was a woman in ministry there that was alone, | 6:05 | |
and I was asked to be on the ritual committee, | 6:09 | |
that was headed by Sue Sidemartin, | 6:13 | |
and we designed the rituals for the entire weekend. | 6:16 | |
- | I would love to hear what that was like, Hilda. | 6:22 |
What was it like being on that planning committee? | 6:24 | |
- | Well, it was, they're a democratic planning committee, | 6:28 |
a lot of talented women. | 6:31 | |
Sue Sidemartin was known for liturgy in her | 6:34 | |
post at St. Calva. | 6:37 | |
She was a very good leader, | 6:41 | |
it was a very democratic process, | 6:43 | |
and I remember when I wrote my ritual, | 6:45 | |
I wrote it and came back to the groups | 6:49 | |
and they had to decide whether to take the risk on it. | 6:51 | |
And Sue Sidemartin took the biggest risk. | 6:56 | |
They tried to get women from all walks of life, | 7:00 | |
and there was a black pastor, | 7:06 | |
there was a native american spiritual leader, | 7:08 | |
so it was a good group. | 7:11 | |
- | I would love to hear more about when | 7:14 |
you brought that ritual back, which I really | 7:15 | |
wanna talk to you more about, 'cause it's so important. | 7:17 | |
So what was the conversation like? | 7:19 | |
Was there some concern about that it was risky? | 7:23 | |
How do you recall that conversation? | 7:26 | |
- | There wasn't really debate about it. | 7:33 |
Sue Sidemartin loved it immediately, | 7:38 | |
and thought it was poetry. | 7:41 | |
And I don't know, no-one disputed the idea. | 7:45 | |
They liked it, they read it, they liked it, | 7:52 | |
they liked the idea of milk and honey verses | 7:54 | |
communion for the closing Sunday worship. | 7:57 | |
- | Yeah. | 8:03 |
- | They liked the language of the ritual, | 8:04 |
so no, within the group itself, there | 8:06 | |
was no concern expressed at the time. | 8:08 | |
- | Yes. | 8:11 |
Could we talk a little bit about your | 8:12 | |
process of writing, I've ready your essay | 8:13 | |
and remembered in Re-imagining, and you | 8:15 | |
said you wrote it at one sitting. | 8:17 | |
- | Well, I had been writing poetry | 8:23 |
since I was a teenager, and I always | 8:24 | |
when I was in ministry, wrote all my liturgy, | 8:29 | |
all of my prayers, all my calls to worship, | 8:32 | |
and all my (mumbles). | 8:36 | |
(interviewer laughs) | 8:38 | |
So that imagery, and I also was a student of the Bible | 8:40 | |
as opposed to the Old Testament, so I mean, | 8:44 | |
all the imagery was in my mind. | 8:47 | |
I also had adopted two children, I was a mother. | 8:53 | |
- | Could you say more about that how you | 9:01 |
came up with the idea of the milk and honey? | 9:04 | |
Where did that come from? | 9:06 | |
- | Well, of course, the Biblical story of land | 9:09 |
flowing with milk and honey, and honestly, | 9:12 | |
there were sensual tones of the whole ritual | 9:16 | |
and those are sensual ideas, milk and honey | 9:23 | |
are sensual, if you think about it, | 9:27 | |
and I also have rejected the idea of communion | 9:31 | |
as body and blood, years before, | 9:35 | |
and would not say that in my churches. | 9:38 | |
When we had communion, I would do it | 9:41 | |
at a remembrance dinner. | 9:42 | |
So some of it was just inspiration. | 9:45 | |
- | Yes. | 9:51 |
You know, you talked about it, and obviously | 9:54 | |
it's so much about affirming women's sexuality | 9:56 | |
and sensuality, could you say | 9:59 | |
a little bit more about that? | 10:03 | |
- | Yeah. | 10:05 |
Well, women's bodies have been so demonized, | 10:06 | |
as the temptresses and we're the great sin | 10:13 | |
and to celebrate women's bodies, we produce milk, | 10:19 | |
we are pregnant and have babies. | 10:24 | |
Honey, you can think of honey as a sexual food. | 10:30 | |
But also it's a delicious taste in the mouth. | 10:35 | |
So I tried to think of all the positive aspects | 10:40 | |
of women's bodies, and not just women as giving birth, | 10:43 | |
but women that didn't give birth. | 10:48 | |
They're nurturing, they're loving. | 10:52 | |
- | Yes. | 10:54 |
Do you think either consciously, or unconsciously, | 10:57 | |
your dissertation on feminist theology | 11:00 | |
and violence against women, did that connect | 11:03 | |
to this ritual, or shape it in any way? | 11:05 | |
- | Oh, I think so, because it was largely about | 11:13 |
how the church had contributed to sexism, | 11:18 | |
and to the denigration of women, | 11:23 | |
and so the celebration of women is the opposite. | 11:28 | |
But also, Re-imagining, because I took | 11:33 | |
that very seriously, and said, "I'm going to | 11:36 | |
"throw out all pre-conceptions of what | 11:39 | |
"a ritual should be in the church, | 11:41 | |
"in a Protestant church, and what | 11:44 | |
"the parameters should be", and the idea of | 11:47 | |
Re-imagining hit me very hard. | 11:50 | |
And the sky was the limit for me, | 11:55 | |
and so when I was writing, that was my point of view. | 11:59 | |
- | Yeah. | 12:03 |
Wonderful, yes. | 12:05 | |
What was it like at the 1993 conference, | 12:09 | |
when you were there and the ritual was done? | 12:13 | |
What was it like to be present when that happened? | 12:19 | |
- | It was overwhelming. | 12:24 |
Women were cheering and hooting and howling. | 12:29 | |
That's sort of what I'd call, some of | 12:35 | |
them were hooting and hollering. | 12:36 | |
- | Yes. | 12:37 |
- | I mean, for one thing it's just a wonderful reaction | 12:38 |
among church women, because at least | 12:42 | |
in the white church, we don't do much of | 12:46 | |
that in church, but it was also | 12:47 | |
such an affirmation, that it hit people hard so fast. | 12:51 | |
It was very thrilling. | 12:55 | |
- | And what would you say, what was that | 13:01 |
hooting and hollering about? | 13:02 | |
Why were they reacting that way? | 13:04 | |
- | I think because the prohibition to talk | 13:07 |
much about sexuality and sensuality in the church, | 13:17 | |
coming from the old church canonical background | 13:21 | |
of Protestantism and Catholicism too. | 13:25 | |
And so it was something out in the open | 13:30 | |
they may not have heard before. | 13:32 | |
And it was right on as far as what | 13:35 | |
women do celebrate about their bodies. | 13:38 | |
And what they experience. | 13:41 | |
But they don't get to celebrate in church. | 13:43 | |
- | Yes. | 13:46 |
Earlier you mentioned something about communion, | 13:49 | |
as you well know, we'll talk about this in a minute, | 13:52 | |
part of the backlash was the idea that | 13:55 | |
this was a substitution for communion, | 13:57 | |
or I guess maybe a perversion of it | 14:01 | |
would be more accurate. | 14:02 | |
How did the ritual committee perceive the | 14:04 | |
role of this particular ritual in the conference? | 14:08 | |
- | I think we're looking for sort of a climax | 14:14 |
and closing, I shouldn't use that word. | 14:17 | |
You know, a great ritual for the end. | 14:19 | |
And that would affirm all the women there, | 14:22 | |
it wasn't specific like the first time | 14:26 | |
we had Native American drummers. | 14:28 | |
That sort of culturally specific, as thrilling as it was. | 14:31 | |
So there was no talk of communion, | 14:37 | |
in the committee, that came out of my mouth. | 14:40 | |
There was no talk of communion. | 14:45 | |
I think that was in my mind as the | 14:47 | |
sharing of food is also very central | 14:50 | |
to women's experience and the providing | 14:54 | |
the food and being head of the family | 14:57 | |
around the table at the dinner table for Jewish women. | 15:00 | |
So I did not abandon the idea of a meal. | 15:05 | |
- | Yes. | 15:11 |
- | But the committee did not discuss that, | 15:12 |
and they gave me no parameters to begin with at all. | 15:15 | |
We were on an exciting ritual for the | 15:18 | |
last day of the conference. | 15:22 | |
- | And you provided an exciting ritual. | 15:25 |
(laughs). | 15:27 | |
- | I guess so. | 15:29 |
- | You also mentioned in your essay | 15:30 |
that this really encouraged you | 15:33 | |
to make feminine images for God more central | 15:37 | |
in your spiritual life. | 15:41 | |
Could you say more about that? | 15:45 | |
- | I think it's ... | 15:50 |
Again, this is kind of linking to the past. | 15:54 | |
But I think I had moved towards | 15:58 | |
more of a neutral idea of God. | 16:01 | |
And my church (mumbles) did not permit | 16:05 | |
me to do He and She, God He and She, | 16:07 | |
God our Mother and Father, that would not | 16:10 | |
have been acceptable. | 16:13 | |
So I had moved towards a more neutral | 16:17 | |
view of God, or more emphasis on Jesus | 16:19 | |
as a teacher, and like the hymns | 16:23 | |
I would pick out would kind of be | 16:30 | |
more about Jesus than God, the Father, omnipotent, etc. | 16:32 | |
The worship. | 16:35 | |
And also my experience was already then | 16:38 | |
influenced by Native American spirituality, | 16:41 | |
so I also was seeing the spirituality in nature. | 16:44 | |
But I have not gotten to the point | 16:48 | |
where I could just focus, just give | 16:52 | |
me a chance to focus entirely on feminine imagery | 16:56 | |
to the exclusion of everything else. | 17:00 | |
For a little while, I was re-imagining | 17:03 | |
what that would be like. | 17:05 | |
And so yes, it stayed with me, because ... | 17:08 | |
And it influenced by leadership at the church in worship. | 17:11 | |
- | I would love to hear about that. | 17:19 |
How did it influence your | 17:21 | |
leadership of the church in worship? | 17:22 | |
- | Well, I introduced a few things for | 17:25 |
Re-imagining, including the song I | 17:29 | |
can tell you about later. | 17:31 | |
- | Yes. | 17:33 |
- | And I talked some about Sophia in my talks, | 17:35 |
my sermons, and I was even more eulogies | 17:43 | |
about making sure there was no sexist language, | 17:52 | |
and trying to emphasize a nurturing God too, | 17:57 | |
taking that imagery of motherhood, | 18:01 | |
maybe not calling it motherhood | 18:03 | |
but emphasizing a nurturing God. | 18:04 | |
So I had to be careful but what I did | 18:08 | |
was fairly well accepted by a good many people. | 18:11 | |
- | Was it? | 18:16 |
- | Yeah, then when I started the circle of lectures, | 18:18 |
it was very well accepted. | 18:22 | |
- | Yes. | 18:23 |
- | You almost expected for me to use | 18:25 |
a variety of images of God. | 18:27 | |
- | And remind me how long did that last? | 18:31 |
The circle of life. | 18:36 | |
- | Not a lot longer than a year. | 18:38 |
- | Okay, yes. | 18:40 |
- | We got a store front church, and we had | 18:41 |
a little store gift shop, and then | 18:44 | |
the back was the church, I think | 18:46 | |
that was a bit head of its time too, | 18:48 | |
or didn't fit too well for mainstream Protestants, | 18:50 | |
where evangelicals had been meeting | 18:54 | |
in different places all along, | 18:57 | |
they were used to sanctuary. | 18:59 | |
But that's what it was, a store front church | 19:03 | |
for a little more than a year. | 19:05 | |
- | And I'm just curious, how many people | 19:09 |
would you say attended during that time? | 19:10 | |
- | Well, there were about 25 people involved | 19:15 |
who were members, the attendance would be about 18. | 19:17 | |
- | Yeah. | 19:23 |
I wanted to get back to that 93 conference, | 19:27 | |
and I know it's been a long time. | 19:29 | |
Are there other memories you have of that conference | 19:32 | |
and what that experience was like for you? | 19:35 | |
- | What was wonderful there to see ... | 19:39 |
I'd been going for a long time there, | 19:44 | |
Women in Leadership tended to have | 19:46 | |
a different style than men, and they | 19:49 | |
were something I liked very much, | 19:52 | |
but this was the first time I got to see | 19:54 | |
it in action on all level, and that was | 19:55 | |
something that the leadership was very | 19:58 | |
thinking ahead of time, including the ritual committee. | 20:01 | |
So really not having any kind of hierarchical | 20:06 | |
structure, so that in the experience, | 20:11 | |
so we sat at a round table. | 20:17 | |
We didn't have one leader, we shared leadership | 20:20 | |
in discussions, and it was just wonderful | 20:22 | |
to experience women's style, not hierarchical, | 20:28 | |
more cooperative, sharing of power, | 20:33 | |
the whole weekend, it was just fantastic. | 20:36 | |
And again, like Re-imagining, it made it | 20:42 | |
seem possible in the future. | 20:44 | |
That organizations could be like that. | 20:48 | |
- | Is that what led to your organizing, | 20:53 |
those circle of life church? | 20:56 | |
- | No, not really. | 21:00 |
I lost my job at the church in a very negative way. | 21:01 | |
I didn't want to leave ministries, | 21:12 | |
so I started something on my own. | 21:14 | |
- | Sure. | 21:16 |
That makes sense. | 21:18 | |
Shall we talk about your song? | 21:20 | |
Tell me about the song that's in the Re-imagining songbook. | 21:23 | |
- | Yeah, this was after the conference, | 21:28 |
and they were soliciting music for | 21:30 | |
the Re-imagining songbook, and it gave | 21:32 | |
me a chance to be a (mumbles), | 21:38 | |
so I took the Re-imagining from the | 21:40 | |
milk and honey ritual where we referred to | 21:43 | |
God as Sophia, and used it in this song. | 21:46 | |
I'll read it to you, because it also | 21:55 | |
mentioned what we're not using as language, | 22:00 | |
and what we're doing as an alternative. | 22:05 | |
So verse 1: "I came to life in your dark waters, | 22:08 | |
"made for the Earth, conceived in your sea. | 22:13 | |
"and when I'm broken, lost in some desert, | 22:17 | |
"you'll steal your life's blood, to rescue me". | 22:20 | |
Here's the chorus: "Some call you Lord, | 22:24 | |
"Some call you father, some say the Godhead, | 22:28 | |
"some Trinity, but when I'm aching from life's hard labors, | 22:31 | |
"I cry my mother, come shelter me". | 22:37 | |
Verse 2: "You soar above me like a great eagle, | 22:42 | |
"I find my comfort beneath your wings, | 22:47 | |
"and when I go through the darkest valleys, | 22:49 | |
"you are the one friend always with me". | 22:52 | |
And then there would be the chorus. | 22:56 | |
The last verse 3: "You are creation, | 22:59 | |
"you are still waters, you are the pasture, | 23:03 | |
"you are the sea, you are Sophia, | 23:07 | |
"my source, my wisdom, you are the true light, guiding me". | 23:10 | |
- | Oh Hilda, that is beautiful and powerful! | 23:17 |
Really poetic! | 23:21 | |
Tell me how- | 23:23 | |
- | They really love it. | 23:24 |
- | I know, me too. | 23:25 |
Tell me me about the images in there | 23:27 | |
and about writing this, I'd love to hear about it. | 23:29 | |
- | Well, by the way, the melody is | 23:32 |
a lovely folk melody that I heard first | 23:34 | |
from Marina McKinnon, so it's | 23:36 | |
an old folk melody from Ireland. | 23:39 | |
Well I was quite a student of the Bible, | 23:42 | |
I studied both Hebrew and Greek in the seminary. | 23:46 | |
A lot of these images are from the Bible. | 23:50 | |
Dark waters refers to Earth. | 23:54 | |
The Earth of course, many native spiritualities | 23:58 | |
talk about the Earth and the Goddess, our mother. | 24:04 | |
Conceived in your sea, again is | 24:08 | |
the waters of birth, in the womb. | 24:10 | |
But then broken and lost in the desert, | 24:15 | |
that sounds like a psalm. | 24:17 | |
And steal your life's blood to rescue me, | 24:20 | |
so I referred sort of to Jesus' death, | 24:23 | |
but thought of it more in terms of women, | 24:28 | |
I know women will give their lives | 24:31 | |
to rescue their children, and they often have. | 24:33 | |
Like during the holocaust. | 24:37 | |
So let's see, the great eagle of course, | 24:42 | |
I find comfort between your wings, | 24:45 | |
that was partly a reference to the song | 24:47 | |
that was popular then, I can't remember the name, can you? | 24:49 | |
- | Is it by Michael Jonkis? | 24:56 |
Let's see, yes. | 25:00 | |
I think I know what you're talking about, | 25:03 | |
but it's escaping me too, yes, go ahead. | 25:05 | |
- | Tender valleys was from Psalm 23. | 25:09 |
And back to creations, used pasture, | 25:13 | |
you leave me in green pastures from the Psalm. | 25:18 | |
Then Sophia's referring to the actual testament | 25:21 | |
reference to Sophia, as wisdom. | 25:25 | |
And then true light guiding me | 25:30 | |
is from the Gospel of John, first chapter. | 25:31 | |
- | Yes. | 25:35 |
There's so much imagery in there. | 25:38 | |
And I wanted to ask you specifically about Sophia. | 25:39 | |
You wrote about creating the Sophia ritual, | 25:42 | |
use Sophia, tell me about why that image | 25:45 | |
is so important to you, or was so important to you. | 25:48 | |
- | I think it was important to me to | 25:52 |
use an image from the Bible. | 25:55 | |
And I wanted to start from that place, | 25:57 | |
because many women were starting from that place, | 26:03 | |
and that was still an important part of my life | 26:07 | |
as a minister, and to my feeling that | 26:12 | |
as the clearest biblical reference | 26:16 | |
to a feminine image that could be seen as a deity, as God. | 26:19 | |
There's a lot of women heroes in the Bible, and that, | 26:28 | |
but I wanted an image that was used more, | 26:35 | |
even though quite abstractly to refer to something divine. | 26:38 | |
- | Do you recall, by any chance, how you first | 26:43 |
encountered the Sophia image? | 26:46 | |
- | I'm sure I read all the feminist theologians | 26:51 |
at the time, I'm sure it was in a book I read. | 26:56 | |
- | Sure. | 27:00 |
- | I was very influenced by feminist theology, | 27:04 |
I wish I could get you a specific reference, | 27:07 | |
but I can't, but I was certainly not the | 27:09 | |
first person to point out that feminine imagery for God. | 27:11 | |
- | Do you remember during the ritual committee, | 27:18 |
the planning committee, because Sophia | 27:20 | |
became a very important image at Re-imagining, | 27:21 | |
do you recall any discussion about that particular image? | 27:24 | |
- | It was used throughout the conference, wasn't it? | 27:37 |
- | It was, yeah, (mumbles) bless Sophia. | 27:39 |
- | I'm not sure why. | 27:41 |
I'm really not sure why. | 27:43 | |
- | Sure, yeah. | 27:44 |
Well Hilda- | 27:47 | |
- | I don't think it started with me, | 27:48 |
I think it was sort of agreed upon | 27:49 | |
across the board, we influenced each other mutually. | 27:52 | |
- | Yes. | 27:59 |
That sounds like part of the process, | 28:00 | |
there was a lot of mutuality. | 28:01 | |
Yes. | 28:04 | |
I wanted to ask you about the backlash. | 28:06 | |
First of all, did it effect you directly? | 28:08 | |
The backlash after the 1993 conference. | 28:12 | |
- | Well, I said I lost my job at my church | 28:15 |
within two years after the conference, | 28:19 | |
and at first, right after the conference, | 28:23 | |
it seemed like my church was fairly oblivious to it. | 28:26 | |
The conference itself. | 28:30 | |
And my positions was actually added | 28:36 | |
because people liked me, they added | 28:39 | |
in a (mumbles) pastor in. | 28:42 | |
So I was quite popular, at least I thought I was. | 28:43 | |
But I think that as I became more feminist. | 28:47 | |
I didn't become more feminist, | 28:56 | |
my liturgy became more feminist. | 28:57 | |
- | Yes. | 28:59 |
- | And my sermons, I took a little more | 29:00 |
liberty with not necessarily preaching off the Bible, | 29:01 | |
and also in my liturgy, I did use some | 29:07 | |
non-Biblical sources for text sometimes. | 29:11 | |
And I think there were people that really didn't like that. | 29:15 | |
And for some reason, I was the kind of person | 29:18 | |
people never said that to my face. | 29:20 | |
So when there was question of firing me, | 29:23 | |
a lot of those people came out of the woodwork, | 29:27 | |
that I was just too radical, and too liberal. | 29:31 | |
So it wasn't a direct backlash, | 29:35 | |
or an immediate backlash, but I think | 29:38 | |
it was part of what happened to me. | 29:40 | |
- | Yes. | 29:44 |
And well Hilda, first of all I am so sorry | 29:46 | |
to hear this, and how did you react to that? | 29:47 | |
What was that experience like? | 29:51 | |
- | (laughs) I'm not sure what you mean, how did I ... | 29:55 |
- | Well how did you deal with it? | 29:59 |
That's probably a better way to put it, thank you. | 30:01 | |
- | Well they were firing me, I thought it was | 30:04 |
totally unjust, and I fought like crazy, | 30:07 | |
and I did myself in that way, because | 30:10 | |
then the United Church of Christ, | 30:12 | |
because I fought their policy and their process, | 30:14 | |
would no longer license me. | 30:17 | |
So I did myself in, but I thought I was justified. | 30:19 | |
And the experience ... | 30:25 | |
The one thing they said was they wanted safety. | 30:30 | |
They didn't want conflict, they didn't want me | 30:35 | |
to raise any issues, they just wanted | 30:38 | |
a nice, peaceful church, and that turned | 30:41 | |
me off so much to Christianity, | 30:43 | |
because I was studying the holocaust at the time, | 30:47 | |
and it felt very bad, the people were | 30:52 | |
interpreting the church as a safe place | 30:55 | |
and not as champions of justice, | 30:58 | |
not as fires for justice, or martyrs for justice, you know? | 31:03 | |
- | Yes. | 31:07 |
- | I came away feeling very few | 31:12 |
Christians could walk the walk. | 31:14 | |
I don't want to put too much of my bitterness in, | 31:20 | |
but that's how I came away. | 31:23 | |
- | Sure. | 31:25 |
And as you think about the backlash in general | 31:27 | |
against the Re-imagining conference, | 31:29 | |
how would you account for it? | 31:32 | |
What do you think caused that? | 31:34 | |
- | This is what I think happened. | 31:40 |
The liberal press wasn't very present, | 31:42 | |
and this conservative church press | 31:46 | |
showed up sort of late on, so they | 31:48 | |
started to show up for the Sophia milk and honey ritual, | 31:51 | |
and they didn't understand it, they didn't | 31:55 | |
have any idea why we were doing it. | 32:00 | |
They didn't understand what Re-imagining meant, | 32:02 | |
but it was partly an exercise in doing | 32:05 | |
something different, so of course they, | 32:11 | |
like you said, they called it a perversion. | 32:14 | |
Of communion. | 32:17 | |
And some of it was just really unfortunate | 32:19 | |
press coverage, at the very end of the conference, | 32:22 | |
and it was tragic for some of the women. | 32:26 | |
They lost their jobs. | 32:35 | |
They had so much to contribute to the church. | 32:38 | |
Really didn't do what they were charged with, | 32:49 | |
which was perverting Christianity. | 32:51 | |
It was an exercise in imagination, | 32:54 | |
and it was a beautiful exercise of the imagination. | 32:56 | |
No-one deserves to lose their livelihood over it. | 33:03 | |
- | And as you well know, and you already alluded to this, | 33:09 |
the milk and honey ritual was | 33:10 | |
often one of the major aspects of the conference | 33:14 | |
that was specifically mentioned and targeted. | 33:17 | |
Were you surprised by that? | 33:21 | |
How did you react to their targeting that particular ritual? | 33:23 | |
- | No, I wasn't surprised by it. | 33:35 |
I was surprised that it got taken in | 33:37 | |
isolated and out of context of the whole conference. | 33:41 | |
- | Yes. | 33:44 |
- | Again, I was surprised that intelligent | 33:48 |
church leaders couldn't see that it was | 33:51 | |
an exercise in imagination. | 33:55 | |
That's what spirituality should be, stretching yourself. | 33:58 | |
I found that very disappointing, I felt very bad. | 34:07 | |
I feel to blame, but I felt very bad | 34:11 | |
for the women who lost their jobs. | 34:14 | |
But it made me very negative towards church hierarchies. | 34:18 | |
- | Yeah. | 34:25 |
- | Especially the Presbyterian and Roman Catholic Church, | 34:27 |
those two women I knew well that were fired. | 34:32 | |
I did wanna say that, we talked about | 34:37 | |
me losing my job and leaving the church. | 34:41 | |
Re-imagining was related to that. | 34:45 | |
I feel like I re-imagined myself | 34:49 | |
to the point that I couldn't fit | 34:52 | |
in a church that had so many vestiges | 34:55 | |
of patriarchy anymore. | 34:58 | |
I compared myself to Mary Daley, not that | 35:02 | |
I'm as brilliant as her, but she also got, | 35:05 | |
her feminist theology ended up taking her outside | 35:08 | |
any kind of traditional church theology. | 35:13 | |
And so Re-imagining was a part of me | 35:18 | |
moving beyond that, and at the time | 35:21 | |
there wasn't a place for people like me. | 35:24 | |
People suggested I become Unitarian, | 35:27 | |
but that was not gonna happen. | 35:31 | |
- | Why wasn't that gonna happen? | 35:35 |
- | But Re-imagined- | 35:36 |
- | I'm sorry. | 35:37 |
- | I had done so much education and | 35:39 |
so much continuing it and sort of a doctorate | 35:42 | |
and I didn't wanna go back to school to become a Unitarian. | 35:44 | |
- | Yes. | 35:49 |
A moment ago, you alluded to the Presbyterian woman | 35:51 | |
and the Roman Catholic woman you were close to | 35:54 | |
who were fired, who were you thinking of there? | 35:56 | |
- | I'm trying to- | 36:00 |
Sue Sidematin was the Roman Catholic woman | 36:02 | |
who headed the liturgy committee. | 36:03 | |
The woman that was Presbyterian, I'm not remembering, | 36:08 | |
but I think she was a co-author of the Re-imagining, | 36:10 | |
Remembering Re-imagining? | 36:13 | |
- | Are you thinking of Mary-Ann Lundy, | 36:16 |
who was at the national headquarters? | 36:18 | |
- | Yeah. | 36:19 |
- | Yes, yes. | 36:20 |
I actually interviewed her, as you know, | 36:21 | |
Sue Sidemartin passed away. | 36:23 | |
She was very important in this. | 36:26 | |
So would you say she was fired because of Re-imagining? | 36:28 | |
- | Oh yes. | 36:33 |
Oh yes, it was very soon after, and yes. | 36:35 | |
Other people didn't say that. | 36:39 | |
Because I was pretty clear about it, | 36:42 | |
I continued to see her afterwards. | 36:44 | |
- | Yes, well would you feel comfortable talking about that? | 36:47 |
Because I've heard some people allude to it, | 36:49 | |
but I'm not sure that people knew that. | 36:52 | |
How would you describe what happened with her? | 36:55 | |
Because I can't interview her. | 36:58 | |
- | The authorities at St. Thomas | 37:01 |
had seen the publicity and decided to fire her, | 37:08 | |
and that's what she told me. | 37:15 | |
I saw her in person afterwards several times. | 37:18 | |
When they fired her, that's what | 37:21 | |
they referred to as the reason, | 37:25 | |
was her participation in the Re-imagining conference. | 37:28 | |
- | And how did she deal with that? | 37:33 |
- | Oh gee, I don't know, but I always ... | 37:37 |
Felt that her cancer couldn't have been | 37:42 | |
helped by her distress she was under | 37:45 | |
losing her job and losing not just her job | 37:48 | |
but her career, her career was liturgy, | 37:53 | |
her calling was creating liturgy. | 37:55 | |
- | Yes. | 37:59 |
You know, you've already started doing that, | 38:03 | |
you talked about Re-imagining as a beautiful | 38:06 | |
exercise in imagination, which is a lovely phrase. | 38:08 | |
Are there any other ways you would define Re-imagining? | 38:12 | |
- | Well I think that was the | 38:20 |
intention of those who organized it. | 38:22 | |
But I think it was transforming to a lot of women. | 38:25 | |
For one thing, they could see | 38:28 | |
what was possible for feminist Christians, | 38:30 | |
for a non-hierarchical spiritual community. | 38:38 | |
For trying to be inclusive of other spiritualities | 38:48 | |
or other points of view, liberation theology, | 38:52 | |
I can't say, the Latin American Marista, | 38:55 | |
how do you say it? | 39:02 | |
- | Mujerista? | 39:03 |
- | Yeah, that was not a word I remember | 39:05 |
being used at the time, although | 39:07 | |
I know we had a speaker from Latin America. | 39:09 | |
Just the inclusiveness and the diversity | 39:16 | |
accepted within the conference made ... | 39:19 | |
Some of that you could have had | 39:25 | |
without calling it Re-imagining. | 39:26 | |
It was just that women or feminists were in charge | 39:28 | |
of organizing a wonderful conference. | 39:30 | |
- | And Hilda, in some ways you've already answered this, | 39:39 |
but sometimes I've found it's helpful | 39:42 | |
to ask the question and see if you have other thoughts. | 39:43 | |
What would you say, what aspects of Re-imagining | 39:46 | |
were most significant to you, and why? | 39:48 | |
- | The thing that I remember most is the table time | 39:59 |
with other women, and you stayed with them | 40:02 | |
the whole weekend, and there was a really wonderful | 40:05 | |
dialogue that took place there. | 40:09 | |
And at the end, we gave each other presents, | 40:14 | |
the last day, and I don't remember what I gave, | 40:17 | |
but I remember receiving a shawl that | 40:20 | |
this women had (mumbles) a prayer shawl. | 40:23 | |
So that feeling at that table | 40:31 | |
is the thing I remember the most. | 40:33 | |
Then the contribution of the arts, | 40:37 | |
like the native american drummers. | 40:42 | |
There was some dance I believe, | 40:46 | |
some dance performance within it. | 40:48 | |
But honestly, for me the speakers | 40:51 | |
were not saying anything that new to me, | 40:56 | |
because I was well read, but I think | 40:59 | |
for some of the women, that was very important. | 41:02 | |
- | Yes. | 41:09 |
And Hilda, how did your involvement in Re-imagining | 41:12 | |
change your perspective on feminist theology, | 41:13 | |
and/or the church, if it did? | 41:16 | |
- | Well, I think I said, I imagined myself | 41:20 |
right outside the Christian theology, | 41:24 | |
what would be considered Christian theology, | 41:27 | |
because I became more feminist. | 41:30 | |
Mary Daley was a big influence on my thinking, | 41:35 | |
and she was moving outside the church. | 41:38 | |
You could call it impatience. | 41:43 | |
I see Sacred Journey today doing what I needed back then. | 41:47 | |
I wasn't patient enough for the patriarchy | 41:52 | |
to go away within the church. | 41:54 | |
- | Yeah, you're living in New York now, correct? | 42:01 |
- | Mhmm. | 42:05 |
- | So you mentioned Sacred Journey, | 42:06 |
how do you have contact with them? | 42:08 | |
- | My sons live in the Twin Cities, | 42:11 |
and my friends from back when I was in the Twin Cities | 42:14 | |
who were involved with my circle of life, | 42:18 | |
so I try to go every year once or twice to see everyone. | 42:20 | |
- | Wonderful. | 42:25 |
- | And it wasn't easy for me to go back into a church. | 42:26 |
But Donna described Sacred Journey, | 42:29 | |
my friend Donna Lawn, and so I visited with her | 42:31 | |
and was quite comfortable. | 42:34 | |
- | And thanks much to her, because she's the one | 42:37 |
who got me in touch with you, | 42:39 | |
so I'm very appreciative to her. | 42:41 | |
- | With the name change, yeah. | 42:43 |
- | Yes. | 42:45 |
I couldn't find you! | 42:46 | |
- | It might be why I haven't heard more feedback. | 42:47 |
It's so thrilling to know that people know about | 42:50 | |
milk and honey ritual, and that it influences them. | 42:53 | |
- | Yes, and it has. | 42:59 |
Do you think that Re-imagining made any | 43:01 | |
significant contributions to Christian theology or liturgy? | 43:03 | |
- | Oh, I think so very much. | 43:08 |
Besides bringing thousands of women there | 43:13 | |
who were interested but not educated necessarily, | 43:16 | |
they were just starting seminary, or they were lay people, | 43:21 | |
I think it was very educational for them | 43:25 | |
about what feminist theology had to say, and to contribute, | 43:27 | |
and they went on to contribute to their churches | 43:32 | |
and be a part of their churches' lives. | 43:34 | |
But I also think it pushed it a little more radical. | 43:37 | |
In some places, not everyone went away feeling that way, | 43:44 | |
but in some places it did. | 43:47 | |
- | Yeah. | 43:49 |
And although you are not involved in a church today, | 43:51 | |
it's almost 25 years later. | 43:54 | |
What do you think of where many Christian churches are now? | 43:57 | |
Is it where you thought they would be in 2017? | 44:02 | |
I'm thinking of inclusive language, in terms of liturgy. | 44:08 | |
Women's leadership. | 44:14 | |
- | Yeah, certainly there's been ... | 44:17 |
When I graduated with my Master's of Divinity, | 44:22 | |
there were very few women going into ministry, | 44:26 | |
and that changed drastically just in five years, ten years. | 44:29 | |
So I've seen a big change in the church, | 44:34 | |
and then accepting of women's leadership and ministry. | 44:36 | |
And yes, I see a slow move towards more inclusive language | 44:41 | |
in mainline Protestantism, I don't know, | 44:46 | |
I can't speak for the Roman Catholic Church. | 44:51 | |
But I know in terms of music, in that, their liturgies | 44:56 | |
have become more diverse, but the evangelicals | 44:59 | |
feels like the backlash. | 45:04 | |
And the fundamentalist church, the extreme | 45:07 | |
embracing of patriarchal language, "Our father, God", | 45:10 | |
the hierarchies, the women are subject to their husband. | 45:18 | |
It's just the other extreme, I think | 45:24 | |
they've gotten more entrenched and larger | 45:28 | |
as many churches have grown in some places. | 45:31 | |
- | Yes, that's helpful. | 45:36 |
Now, what does Re-imagining mean today? | 45:39 | |
And I want to be clear, I don't mean necessarily | 45:41 | |
just Re-imagining in terms of the Re-imagining community, | 45:43 | |
but what do you think needs to be re-imagined today? | 45:46 | |
In the church, or in society. | 45:50 | |
- | One thing I still see in churches, | 45:59 |
is that they have trouble embracing all types of people. | 46:04 | |
I see the poor and less educated going to | 46:09 | |
a certain type of church, and not being embraced | 46:13 | |
in middle class churches. | 46:15 | |
I don't see that embracing of diversity. | 46:20 | |
My seminary was (mumbles). | 46:23 | |
And I don't see the black and white churches | 46:28 | |
coming together the way I hoped, | 46:31 | |
because a black worship is so fantastic | 46:33 | |
and so alive and so emotive, | 46:36 | |
and I was hoping that white church more. | 46:39 | |
- | Yes. | 46:43 |
- | And I think churches are struggling | 46:45 |
for membership, for relevance. | 46:47 | |
And they're also competing with people with very- | 46:51 | |
- | Yes. | 46:55 |
You mentioned you looked at the Re-imagining website, | 46:58 | |
which is now up, and whether ... | 47:01 | |
What would you like to see on that website? | 47:03 | |
Or what did you find helpful? | 47:07 | |
Do you have any suggestions, I guess? | 47:09 | |
- | Sure, yeah, I didn't have a lot of time | 47:12 |
to spend with it, but I think the more | 47:15 | |
resources that can go up there for liturgy would be nice. | 47:18 | |
And whatever would be appropriate for women's narratives | 47:28 | |
about the Re-imagining conference and the community. | 47:32 | |
- | Yes. | 47:37 |
- | Maybe resources for young women who want a mentor. | 47:40 |
- | Yes, that's great. | 47:45 |
- | If you wanna pick an older woman's brain. | 47:47 |
- | (laughs) So kind of have a mentoring, | 47:50 |
trying to set up mentors between older and younger women | 47:53 | |
pastors, is that what you're thinking of? | 47:57 | |
- | Well, even less formal, where you can | 48:00 |
have a conversation, a dialogue, a resource. | 48:03 | |
- | Yes. | 48:06 |
And I could see it would be beneficial | 48:08 | |
for both parties to do that. | 48:09 | |
- | Oh yes. | 48:11 |
- | Intergenerational. | 48:12 |
Yeah, that's a great idea. | 48:13 | |
Thank you. | 48:15 | |
Is there anything that we haven't discussed | 48:17 | |
that you would like to add? | 48:19 | |
- | I'm just looking at the questions quickly. | 48:26 |
- | Sure, yes please. | 48:28 |
- | No, I think I covered it. | 48:35 |
No, I think I covered it, and it was probably | 48:41 | |
the highlight of my career in terms of liturgy. | 48:46 | |
The Re-imagining conference, to see what | 48:50 | |
women could design for worship, not just my own. | 48:52 | |
But it really was very exciting, | 48:56 | |
the highlight of my career for liturgy. | 48:58 | |
I have to say, the highlight for my career | 49:01 | |
for helping people is a whole other story. | 49:03 | |
I remember being involved with this person | 49:06 | |
and that family and (mumbles). | 49:08 | |
That's different, that's pastoral. | 49:11 | |
But this was the highlight of my career | 49:14 | |
as far as ritual and liturgy. | 49:16 | |
- | Wow. | 49:20 |
Well that's a lovely way to end, | 49:21 | |
and I want to thank you again, Hilda, | 49:22 | |
for this wonderful interview, and for your wisdom. | 49:24 | |
And I'm gonna turn off the recording now. | 49:28 | |
- | Okay. | 49:30 |