Deacon-Weber, Kathy / Re-Imagining Collection / Duke Digital Repository

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Alright, we should be going here.

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First of all, if you could say your name.

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My name is Kathy Deacon Weber.

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Thank you and are you lay or clergy?

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Lay.

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And your denominational affiliation, if you have any.

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Uh, my background is Roman Catholic.

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Good, great.

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When and where were you born, Kathy?

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I was born in

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Varina, Iowa in 1954.

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OK, nice.

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And where did you go to school, graduate or divinity school?

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I went to United Theological Seminary

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in New Brighton, Minnesota.

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Great.

0:36

And how and when did you first

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become aware of feminist theology?

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Um.

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I think it started in the 80s

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and I attended a

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diocesan retreat that was held here

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in Shoreview at Home of the Good Shepherd.

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And it was by two nuns,

1:00

Michelle and Kay and they gave a

1:05

day of the feminist images of God in the Bible.

1:09

And I was a young mom then, and I thought,

1:15

oh my gosh, I had waited my whole life

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to hear this, you know.

1:19

So they...

1:20

talked about,

1:23

well, I know they said that Ourea meant God of the mountains

1:28

or God the breasted one and I thought,

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oh my goodness, I'm made in God's image.

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You know and--

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Is that the first time you really felt that?

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Yes.

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Wow.

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Mmhm, yeah, in a deeper way.

1:45

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Yeah.

1:48

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And I think I'd call myself a feminist before then.

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And then at the College of St. Catherine's

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they had a theological insights program

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and every fall and every spring for four or five

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Friday mornings they would have a topic

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and they would invite a woman to come

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and share her story on the topic

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and then they'd have another woman come

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and do more of a theological reflection on the topic.

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And I would imagine there was at least probably

2:18

300 or more of us that would attend regularly

2:23

and I went not knowing anyone

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and that's where I met kind of a core community

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that I still meet regularly with.

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Really?

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I decided then that feminist theology

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was women telling their stories.

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That's what I learned from that.

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So that kind of shaped my theology.

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And then I took a continuing ed class

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at St. Catherine's University

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by Florence McHugh,

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who studied and got her degree with the university

3:02

that Matthew Fox had started in California.

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And it was called Awakening the Divine Feminine

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and that was very life changing

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and she introduced me to uh,

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oh, like the Goddess of Willendorf

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and some of the early goddess figures and um,

3:22

some films about the goddess and anyway,

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that was quite an awakening.

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And she had two classes, one that met in the day

3:32

and one that met at the night.

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And when that series ended, a woman from the other class

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contacted me and we formed a

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feminist spirituality book group that met for several years.

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Really?

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And um, our first book was Matthew Fox,

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Original Blessing and so that's kind of the book that,

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if anyone wanted to join the group, we'd say,

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well have you read that and does that resonate with you

4:01

to see if they would uh,

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kind of fit into our group.

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How many people were in your group?

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I think um, maybe 10.

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Yeah.

4:17

And then Florence McHugh offered another class

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at St. Joan of Arc called from Patriarchy to Partnership.

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And I took that and that was quite...

4:28

Life changing too.

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And I think, I think there's a book of that title

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that I read along with that.

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You said life changing.

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Could you say more about what about

4:41

these experiences were life changing?

4:42

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I thought it was interesting to learn

4:47

a bigger history of um,

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women's role in the world,

4:56

you know, in society.

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And of times way back and you know,

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when woman were honored and there were matriarchal societies

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and you know, um,

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a feminist reading of what

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some of the goddess figures represented,

5:13

versus maybe what cultural patriarchy might say about them.

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It was empowering as a woman, yeah.

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Yeah.

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And um, and it was, there was also some anger there.

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You know, like we watched the film the Burning Times,

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you know, and how woman have been,

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women's wisdom has been downplayed

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and certainly those of us in those classes

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and in those circles felt

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we were involved in communities

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that limited the roles that we could be in the church

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or in society and didn't fully honor the gifts we brought.

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That is great, Kathy.

6:01

How about talking about Re-Imagining?

6:04

What was your relationship to the Re-Imagining community?

6:06

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Well, I began seminary

6:10

in the fall of 1993

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and I took a Re-Imagining class that Christie Neuger offered

6:16

and so that's what introduced me

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to the Re-Imagining Conference.

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And I had not heard about it through my Catholic circles

6:25

and found out, you know, it was sponsored by

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the World Council of Churches.

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It was um,

6:37

amazing timing for me

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because I had just written a long letter

6:41

to our local parish priest about my frustration

6:45

with inclusive language and the limitation

6:48

of women's voice in the liturgy.

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You know, like, we could do a reading

6:53

or we could sing in the choir, but we could never, um,

6:56

reflect on the gospel or give a sermon, you know.

7:02

So and he

7:09

accused me of having white, middle-class women's issues.

7:11

That these were white, middle-class women's issues.

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So for me, going to Re-Imagining and having women

7:20

from all around the world, from many ethnicities,

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raise up the same concerns was so empowering

7:31

and I'm getting goosebumps as I talk about it.

7:35

I felt like I waited my whole life

7:40

for the ritual at that conference.

7:44

It was so...

7:47

amazing.

7:51

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Oh, I want to hear more about that.

7:52

Talk some more about the ritual.

7:54

What about the ritual moved you so much?

7:56

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Well, I had taken a class at St. Paul Seminary

7:59

about ritual, feminist ritual.

8:03

And I was critiquing the traditional,

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what at the time I called the Roman Catholic Liturgy,

8:10

but you know, when I started at United Theological Seminary

8:12

I was just surprised that

8:16

a lot of times the liturgy there was the same that we had

8:19

in the Catholic church, you know?

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I'm like, oh, you're the same creed,

8:26

you have the same, you know, outline for your service.

8:29

And many of the same prayers, I was kind of shocked at that

8:33

because I hadn't been that exposed to, um,

8:37

many protestant services.

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Yeah.

8:44

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Yeah.

But I had done a critique of that

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and do you know, in our Catholic liturgy,

8:48

God was referred to as male 80-some times.

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It's easy to refer to God in general neutral language.

8:59

You can just say God.

9:05

Lord was a very common phrase

9:10

for God or Jesus was in the Catholic tradition.

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In our hymns, all of our hymns are,

9:16

we're singing to the Lord, you know and our prayers.

9:19

And God was referred to as father

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and the priests were referred to as father.

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So it was just refreshing.

9:31

I recently reviewed some of the liturgy

9:37

that we had at Re-Imagining and it was

9:40

nothing that profound, I mean.

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(laughing)

9:47

I mean, it was, but, I mean, it mainly just didn't,

9:50

we didn't say God the father, maybe we just said that,

9:54

kind of, you know, God is love or you know--

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Yeah.

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Loving creator, I don't know what terms were used,

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but they didn't seem that amazing.

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But they were, for that time.

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Right.

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Both

Yeah.

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Do you think they would still be today?

10:12

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I feel like some of the work,

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like I have a friend in the United Methodist Church

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and I feel like even my own involvement

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in the Catholic church, I was a lay presider for a while,

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where I was uh, commissioned to

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lead communion services

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for the school children, there might be 800 children there,

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or in a nursing home

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or a Saturday morning

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at the local perish

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and um...

10:51

I feel like that there was a little window

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where we experimented with more inclusive terms,

10:59

that I feel like,

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some of its turning back now.

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And I've heard that from my friend,

11:11

who is a United Methodist retired minister too.

11:13

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Mm-hm, yeah.

11:16

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So--

11:18

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So mostly the ritual at that first Re-Imagining,

11:19

it was the language, the different language for God

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that really was powerful for you?

11:24

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And the songs, you know, too.

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And just even saying there's many names for God,

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I mean, thank you.

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(laughing)

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I felt like, um,

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it was so nice to hear about

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one's spirituality or religion or theology

11:46

from a woman's perspective

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and I felt like the metaphors and the language

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that the women presenters used felt so familiar.

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It felt, um...

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Maybe even somewhat ordinary to our everyday lives.

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You know, some of the symbols and the language

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and stories we could relate to.

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Yeah.

12:18

You know one thing that attracted a great deal of criticism

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was the milk and honey ritual.

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Do you remember that?

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Do you have, do remember what your reaction to it was?

12:25

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Um...

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I remember that did get a lot of backlash.

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And um...

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I don't think the rit-, I loved the ritual

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but I don't think it shocked me in any way.

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And uh...

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I had been involved for years in the RCIA movement

12:48

in the Catholic Church and I've been told

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that in the early church,

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the milk and honey ritual was part of that.

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I think it got misinterpreted.

13:04

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Yeah, yeah.

13:07

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Something else I want to pick up on that you mentioned,

13:09

that was really interesting is that course you took

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related to Re-Imagining, could you say some about

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what that course was like

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and how it was connected to the conference?

13:17

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Yes, we um, we were asked to do several readings

13:21

before the conference, so those readings kind of

13:25

prepared us for some of the theology

13:29

that some of the presenters would be talking about.

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We read an article on atonement that

13:36

later was talked about in the conference

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and you know, and a variety of other things.

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And I was pretty new to,

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you know, it was my first semester at the seminary so,

13:47

that was probably very helpful for me as a participant.

13:54

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Right.

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Because there is a jargon in every field

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and there's a theological jargon that...

14:01

You might not understand things as fully

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if you don't have a little background.

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Mm-hmm.

14:10

So when you were actually at the conference

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and hearing the theology of the speakers,

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do you remember what your reaction was to it?

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I just remember being so excited.

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There was a...

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Woman from Korea, I believe,

14:25

who talked about Adam and Eve

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and how Eve got in trouble

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for eating from the Tree of Knowledge

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and we all had an apple and took a bite out of it,

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kind of proclaiming that we have a right to that knowledge.

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(laughing)

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It can be ours too, it was,

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and I loved that, I loved using symbols and action.

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You know, taking the bite out of that apple.

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And there's many of us that, you know,

14:57

we got, you know, like wooden apples

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with a bite out of them later.

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(laughing)

15:02

That we used in rituals after or something

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and I remember um...

15:07

The woman, perhaps from India,

15:11

who had us put the red dot on our forehead, you know,

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so I just loved that, uh...

15:16

We were including sacred symbols

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from women around the whole world.

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You know, we were greeted by the Native American

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drumming when we entered the space.

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And I thought the ritual was so full

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and so many layers, it was um,

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there was a lot of planning that went into it.

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A lot of planning and a lot of um,

15:46

a lot of layers of meaning.

15:50

And it was, for that big of a group,

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I think there was, you know, 24, 25,000 people there?

15:56

For that big of space to have ritual

16:02

and a flow to the weekend like it did was amazing planning.

16:04

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Mm-hmm.

16:09

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Because it flowed.

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It was not disorganized.

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There was so much thought put into everything.

16:18

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So you attended the first conference,

16:23

but then you were involved after that.

16:24

Could you say a little bit about

16:26

what your involvement was after the first conference?

16:28

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Well, there was, I think every year for,

16:31

was it up to 10 years that they had

16:34

and I was, um,

16:36

going to seminary at the time,

16:39

so unfortunately, perhaps the first conference

16:41

I thought I couldn't afford it.

16:44

But I think Maryann Therese Winters was one of the prese-,

16:45

and I really wanted to go to that.

16:49

And I think by the time I finally gave myself

16:51

permission to spend the money, it was full.

16:53

But I remember um, attending some of the other conferences

16:57

and I really can't even tell you how many.

17:02

But there was one where we did movement

17:04

and we did a lot of movement where we did

17:08

like a karate chop, or you know,

17:11

it was very empowering, it was so fun

17:12

and then I woke up after that conference,

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I couldn't move my neck for a week.

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(laughing)

17:18

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You really got into it.

17:21

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But I think that was the very last conference

17:24

that I was part of the planning committee

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and that was really rewarding

17:29

and I met some

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women there that, um, I still am in contact with.

17:36

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What part of the planning were you involved in?

17:42

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Well, I remember introducing Mary Bednarowski,

17:46

who was a professor at United Seminary.

17:50

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Yes.

17:53

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So I can't even really remember the details, but--

17:56

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Sure, yeah.

17:59

It's been a while, hasn't it?

18:01

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Yeah.

18:02

(laughing)

18:03

But I remember being excited to be part of that.

18:05

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Yes.

18:08

How about if we move to the

18:12

backlash from the first conference?

18:13

I assume you were aware of the backlash?

18:17

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Yes, I was.

18:21

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Did it affect you directly?

18:24

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Well, in a way it did.

18:26

Because, you know, I, I um...

18:27

I don't even know how to describe my

18:33

religious affiliation today,

18:36

but I, you know, I grew up in the Catholic Church

18:37

and it certainly is a big part of my spirituality today,

18:40

but I'm not involved,

18:44

I'm kind of on the edges of the...

18:48

Parish communities or just, you know.

18:52

I'm involved in a lot of small groups

18:58

and that's my church today.

19:00

But...

19:03

I knew a lot of Roman Catholic women at seminary who

19:06

converted to another denomination

19:12

so they could become ordained.

19:14

And I think what Re-imagining taught me

19:17

was that the misogyny that I experienced

19:19

in the Roman Catholic church hierarchy

19:21

was in all the denominations.

19:26

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Mm-hmm.

19:28

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And so it didn't appeal to me

19:29

to change denominations to become ordained.

19:33

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Yeah.

19:37

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It kind of, like, opened my eyes.

19:39

They might be further ahead in the struggle,

19:47

but there's still a struggle.

19:49

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Right, yeah.

19:51

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It's women's issue.

19:52

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And how, as you think about it,

19:54

at the time or now, how do you account for that backlash?

19:55

Why did it happen?

20:00

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I think that even...

20:03

One of the things I longed for at the time

20:15

was a democratic church.

20:17

And even, I think, what I saw then,

20:20

I don't know how it is today but

20:23

churches that even looked democratic had a patriarchy

20:27

and women who were ordained

20:32

were always not fully accepted.

20:39

I mean, I know the system well enough to know that

20:43

when you're a woman and you work within a patriarchal system

20:49

and you reflect the values

20:52

and the language of patriarchy,

20:55

you're much better embraced and accepted

21:00

than if you try to speak about your own

21:03

personal spirituality,

21:09

in your terms, you know.

21:13

And so you're beloved as long as you're following

21:16

the traditional...

21:22

Rules and then if anything looks a little unorthodox

21:26

then there's some questioning and um,

21:30

moving you out to the outskirts, yeah.

21:35

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Mmhm, mmhm.

21:40

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So.

21:42

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Yeah.

21:43

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I guess I speak for my own experience

21:44

of being a beloved person within my faith communities

21:45

and also because of my ability to,

21:50

or my, I guess I just couldn't help myself

21:54

to ask some tough questions about inclusive language

21:58

and the roles of women and many other things that...

22:02

Even people who dearly love me could be

22:09

challenged by some of my questioning.

22:12

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Mmhm.

22:14

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And wanting to move the community,

22:20

open it up, you know, make it broader, you know.

22:24

Yeah.

22:28

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When you say the community, would you say,

22:30

are you thinking of the Roman Catholic Church

22:32

or is that, or a different community?

22:34

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Basically the Roman Catholic Church is my experience.

22:37

But I certainly was exposed to a lot more denominations

22:40

in my four years at United Theological Seminary

22:45

and I did see that so many of the struggles

22:48

in my own denomination were the struggles in others.

22:52

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Yeah, yep, mmhm, mhmm.

22:55

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And I think with the backlash, I think that

22:58

there was a window and I can't even tell you how many years.

23:03

You know, maybe a decade, where there was a lot of

23:07

experimentation and openness and

23:11

a lot more freedom

23:16

to try new things.

23:21

And I think not only did some of the women

23:22

who were part of the Re-imagining planning

23:25

experience backlash, but a lot of the denominations too,

23:30

because I feel like a lot of the progress

23:34

that was made in the 80s and 90s is um,

23:36

we're losing it.

23:41

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Mmhm, mhmm.

23:42

Yeah.

23:44

How would you define Re-imagining?

23:47

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At the time of the conference,

23:53

I would say that

23:57

what was so exciting for me was

24:00

to explore new ways to speak about God

24:05

that wasn't God the father.

24:08

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Mmhm.

24:09

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I found anytime that I attended a conference

24:17

or a lecture given by women, or a sermon,

24:20

I, as a woman, a lot of times the language or the

24:25

um, the stories they shared resonated more personally

24:30

with me because they were coming from a woman.

24:34

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Mmhm.

24:38

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

24:39

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Yeah.

And I felt empowered.

24:40

You know, in our Lectionary in the Catholic church,

24:44

very few women stories are even in our Lectionary.

24:47

And when they are, it might be a weekday.

24:51

And so I felt empowered to be learning about

24:55

all these women in the scriptures.

24:58

And maybe a new exegesis

25:01

of what,

25:04

of how to interpret the story.

25:08

You know, so that was exciting.

25:11

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And that was coming through Re-imagining?

25:12

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I think I witnessed some of that there, yes.

25:15

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Mmhm.

25:19

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And of course other places too.

25:20

But that was there.

25:22

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Yeah.

25:24

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You know, there was talk on the atonement at Re-imagining

25:25

and I thought that was so...

25:28

It spoke to what I believed in my heart.

25:35

You know, like I already had that in my heart

25:38

but somebody was saying it out loud.

25:41

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And what specifically were they saying?

25:43

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That you know, the theology that Jesus died for our sins

25:47

and we had to believe in Jesus to be saved

25:52

or believe in Jesus, God the father through Jesus

25:57

to be saved, that never made sense to me.

25:59

Like I always thought Jesus was radical and he was,

26:03

he's radical in that he spoke up for the oppressed

26:08

and because he did, the people in

26:13

power didn't like it and they killed him.

26:16

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Mmhm.

26:18

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So that's how I interpreted his life.

26:19

Because the other theology, to me,

26:22

creates an in group and an out group.

26:27

And I could never, um, accept that.

26:30

You know and my first time I ran into that

26:34

was when I went to college.

26:37

I went to Iowa State University.

26:38

And there'd be, oh Campus Crusade for Christ

26:40

or other groups that would, you know,

26:43

stop you on your way to class or whatever

26:46

and you know and, if they found out you were Catholic

26:48

they'd say, "Oh, you're not saved," you know.

26:52

And get into these theological discussions

26:55

and so it was eye opening then to come,

26:59

and I wanted to be a faithful person,

27:03

so they did challenge my beliefs, you know,

27:05

because I kinda listened to that.

27:08

But I knew it wasn't true from my own experience.

27:09

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Yeah.

27:14

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

27:16

Do you know anything about how and why

27:19

the Re-imagining community was formed?

27:21

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What I heard was that um,

27:24

the World Council of Churches was

27:27

celebrating a decade of women.

27:29

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Yes.

27:31

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And that they wanted to do something.

27:32

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Right.

27:36

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And so toward the end of that decade,

27:37

they had this conference.

27:40

-

Yeah, yeah.

27:41

-

And I love that it was woman from all over the world.

27:43

-

Yeah, yeah.

27:47

And then after the conference the community formed.

27:49

The one that lasted for 10 years.

27:52

-

Yes, uh-huh.

27:55

-

Yeah, you probably weren't

27:55

involved in that decision, right?

27:57

-

No.

27:59

-

OK, yeah, that makes sense, sure.

28:00

Um, from your perspective, and you were involved

28:02

with the planning and as an attendee a little bit

28:06

so do you have a sense of how feminist theology

28:09

affected the structure and functioning

28:11

of the community from your involvement in it?

28:13

-

I think that was the heart of it wasn't it?

28:21

-

Yeah.

28:23

(laughing)

Yes.

28:24

Was there any difference when you think about,

28:27

and I know it's been a while, so you might not remember it,

28:29

when you think about like planning the conference,

28:30

was it different because it was Re-imagining

28:33

in the way that it was done?

28:36

-

I think it was more collaborative.

28:39

Yeah.

28:41

I think uh...

28:45

There wasn't a lot of top down

28:48

decision making as far as I knew.

28:49

And it just seemed so inclusive in that.

28:52

I know that, particularly the first one,

28:56

was so big that they had all the sub-groups, you know?

28:58

So you wouldn't have to have like

29:01

a group of 50 come together every time.

29:03

But it just seemed like, um...

29:06

For me, good ritual includes as many people as possible.

29:11

-

Mmhm.

29:15

-

And so I know the ritual of the Re-imagining

29:17

had a lot of people's input and voices.

29:20

And as far as the speakers, too,

29:24

there was quite an effort, I could see,

29:28

to have women from all over the world

29:30

and from a variety of different experiences.

29:34

-

Mmhm.

29:37

Talking about this reminded me,

29:39

you have a great story about your small group

29:41

and the objects, could you say a little bit about that?

29:43

About how people gave gifts to each other in your group.

29:46

What your experience was at that table?

29:49

-

Yeah, we were invited to um, bring a,

29:52

an object...

29:55

To share with other women at our table.

29:59

We had a group of 10 women at the table.

30:01

I received a beautiful clay,

30:06

handmade plate that you could put under a candle

30:11

from a woman from Saskatchewan.

30:14

And I shared a, um, polished turquoise stone

30:17

that I know one of the women at my table received

30:23

and every time I see her she talks about that stone.

30:27

And it's been all these many years since then

30:31

and how special that still is to her.

30:34

-

Mmhm.

30:37

And when I came today, you were able to show me that plate

30:37

and a pitcher that was used at all of the gatherings

30:40

and a basket that was used at them.

30:43

So you have those ritual objects still.

30:45

-

Right, right.

30:48

And I also remember that we were invited to bring um,

30:49

I don't know if they said just a cloth,

30:54

or I brought a scarf, you know,

30:56

and we used those in some movement and um

30:57

that became important to me too.

31:02

Because out of this Re-imagining group,

31:06

I had some friends who uh...

31:13

Were active in the Catholic church,

31:20

many at St. Paul's attending, you know,

31:21

getting their degree at St. Paul's Seminary

31:24

who wanted to do a ritual.

31:28

-

Mmhm.

31:30

-

And we gathered about 50 people

31:31

and we um...

31:36

Before the ritual,

31:39

there was about 10 or 12 of us that met

31:42

and we claimed our ordination through our

31:45

baptism into the priesthood of all believers.

31:47

And we used a prayer

31:51

for deaconesses in the church to claim,

31:55

you know, to commission ourselves to lead,

31:59

to preside at this liturgy.

32:03

-

An ancient prayer for deaconesses?

32:06

-

Mmhm.

32:08

-

Mmhm, yep.

-

So we claimed our ordination through our baptism

32:10

into the priesthood of all believers

32:12

and we put our stoles on.

32:13

And the um...

32:17

The cloth that I had at Re-imagining

32:23

was what I used for that ritual.

32:25

-

Really?

32:27

-

And then every time.

32:28

And then this was supposed to be a one time ritual.

32:30

-

Yeah.

32:32

-

Well, we were so moved by it

32:33

that we continued to meet monthly for six or more years.

32:36

And every month we, um,

32:41

people took turns planning creative rituals

32:45

and we wore our stoles pretty regularly

32:49

in the beginning years and I think as time went on,

32:55

it became less important.

32:58

-

And this developed right out

33:01

of the Re-imagining conference?

33:02

-

It did and we knew that Re-imagining

33:03

had their own monthly rituals.

33:06

-

Mmhm.

33:08

-

But we had our own and the first one was held at the,

33:09

is it the World Council of Churches building

33:17

or Minnesota Council of Churches?

33:18

-

Yep, Minnesota Council of Churches, yes.

33:20

-

They provided space for us.

33:22

-

Yeah.

33:24

-

And then we met there for a while after that.

33:25

But them um...

33:30

There was gonna be a charge that was beyond our capability

33:33

and we found

33:37

another sympathetic protestant church

33:40

that offered us space.

33:45

-

I'd love to hear a little more about this,

33:48

this is fascinating, so how many,

33:50

you said there were 50 women at that first event?

33:52

-

Mmhm.

33:54

-

How many women would you say

33:55

were involved over those six years?

33:56

-

I would say that there was probably,

34:02

we probably would have...

34:07

15 women there and there's probably a core group

34:14

of about 10 that took some main leadership roles there,

34:18

as far as, you know, like, there was a woman who

34:22

was kind of like our liturgist.

34:25

She would bring a round table to each of our liturgies

34:27

that she had in the trunk of her car,

34:31

because we wanted to gather around a round table.

34:33

-

Oh.

34:35

Was that, just one question,

34:37

was that related to Re-imagining or not?

34:38

-

Well, these core women had been to Re-imagining, yes.

34:42

-

OK, yeah, OK.

34:45

-

And so this was, this was kind of like,

34:46

well, what can we do with this?

34:49

You know, we felt like the ritual at Re-imagining was,

34:51

like I said, I waited my whole life for it.

34:55

So we wanted to continue that energy

34:58

and I think a lot of us were kind of like

35:02

lone voices in our local churches.

35:04

-

Were you all Catholic?

35:08

-

Yeah, uh, a few not, but majority yes.

35:09

And many of us worked in the churches

35:14

or were very active volunteers.

35:16

So we had our liturgies on Saturday morning

35:22

because a lot of people were involved in the

35:24

Sunday morning services in their local perishes.

35:26

But a lot of us found that we were kind of

35:31

a lone voice in our perish,

35:33

calling for inclusive language and greater roles for women

35:35

and we almost felt like battered women.

35:40

You know, it was hard to be a lone voice

35:43

and for myself, I'll speak personally that

35:47

I couldn't help myself, I mean,

35:52

I had to bring up these issues.

35:53

They were, it felt oppressive

35:56

to not have

36:00

an intelligent voice from women in our ritual.

36:04

We could read a reading or we could sing in the choir,

36:08

but we never heard from a woman,

36:14

her reflection on the gospel.

36:20

There was nothing like that.

36:22

And we felt called to preside.

36:25

So this gave us a safe place

36:30

to develop our gifts

36:34

as presiders of ritual and we also had a different vision.

36:38

We never wanted anyone to be the leader.

36:42

It was always a shared uh,

36:46

leadership you know?

36:50

There was never one person in charge.

36:56

And even when we presided, it was a team or more.

36:59

Never just one person.

37:05

-

To make sure I understand, from what you said

37:09

about the stoles, it sounds like you,

37:10

you were doing this as lay women

37:13

because of your priesthood as believers.

37:16

-

Right.

37:20

-

Is that right?

-

We were claiming that.

37:21

We were claiming our ordination

37:23

and our right to wear a stole.

37:25

-

Yeah, OK, yeah.

37:27

-

And it was an important symbol at the beginning.

37:29

-

Yes.

37:31

-

And as the years went on, I think that,

37:33

I had been a lay presider in our local perish

37:38

and I presided over these word communion services and stuff.

37:40

And I wore an alb.

37:43

And that was important to me,

37:45

but as the years went on, I saw that the stole or the alb

37:47

became a symbol of separation between

37:52

the presider and the community.

37:55

And so I think we decided to shed those.

37:57

-

Interesting.

38:01

-

Because then it kinda...

38:02

We didn't want anything that would separate,

38:06

you know, somebody at the ritual from

38:12

thinking that they weren't fully participating.

38:14

-

Yeah, yeah.

38:17

You mentioned the stoles, are there other key rituals

38:18

that you remember from this group over those six years?

38:21

-

Well, you know, we rose out of our Catholic traditions

38:26

and so Eucharist was important to us and it was quite,

38:28

it was exciting to claim that we could

38:36

pray over the bread and wine and um,

38:40

and then that became an issue as time went on.

38:46

Some women, that was central, they wanted

38:49

the bread and wine there every ritual.

38:52

And others wanted more freedom to um,

38:55

create ritual without those symbols.

39:00

So there was some tension there as the years went on

39:04

because some people it was really important to

39:10

and some people felt it limited what we could do.

39:12

-

Was it ever resolved in a certain way?

39:16

-

I don't think so.

39:19

-

Yeah.

39:20

-

It just was, and it maybe was just with a few people.

39:21

-

Yeah.

39:25

-

Yeah.

-

Yeah.

39:25

-

There was actually one woman in this group who

39:27

got her Masters of Divinity at United Theological Seminary

39:32

and she was Catholic and she converted

39:36

to another tradition so she would be ordained.

39:38

And the Eucharist was pretty darn important to her.

39:42

(laughing)

39:45

-

But for those of you in the community,

39:49

most of you, being Catholic was an

39:50

important part of your identity, is that true would you say?

39:53

-

For most of the women in that group.

39:57

There was um,

39:59

I remember right off hand, two women who were ordained

40:03

in the protestant churches that were there.

40:07

-

OK, OK.

40:10

-

And another woman quite involved

40:11

in another denomination through the music ministry,

40:13

but the majority of us had a Catholic background.

40:18

-

Yeah.

40:21

-

Yeah.

And even the woman who was involved in music

40:22

from another denomination had,

40:26

her degree from St. Paul Seminary.

40:33

-

Oh OK, yes.

40:35

-

So she had studied at St. Paul Seminary.

40:37

-

Mmhm, mhmm, this is really, really interesting.

40:38

What aspects, we've kinda talked about this,

40:44

but maybe you can add something to it,

40:46

what aspects of Re-imagining were

40:47

most significant to you and why?

40:48

-

I think it empowered us as women.

40:54

I think that we were starving for that empowerment.

40:58

And like I said, so many of us kind of felt like

41:02

battered women, you know, so for me it was like

41:04

my experiences, they validated what...

41:08

It validated my yearning for inclusive language,

41:15

for more active participation for women,

41:20

for more inclusivity.

41:23

And it validated my own call.

41:31

You know, like, uh...

41:33

So it was very empowering.

41:40

-

How would you define your call?

41:41

-

Well, I think a call to be a faithful person

41:51

and I felt like there, I have felt for most

41:54

of my adult life, a mystical,

41:58

a relationship with a mystery, that seems real.

42:02

At the time of Re-imagining, it was rooted

42:10

in the Christian tradition and since Re-imagining,

42:12

there's been an evolution of my spirituality

42:18

that includes the wisdom from so

42:22

many different religious traditions.

42:25

And um, so Christianity's part of the story,

42:28

but it's too small to contain what I experience now.

42:32

And so therefore, I find it,

42:38

there was about a decade in my life

42:41

where I tried to go back to the traditional ritual

42:43

and it just did not fit anymore.

42:46

I know so many people like myself,

42:48

who have no, um, church community because we don't fit.

42:55

-

Yeah.

43:01

-

You know?

43:02

So my church today is small groups.

43:04

-

Could you say more about that?

43:08

You mentioned that earlier, that's intriguing,

43:09

what kind of small groups?

43:11

-

Well, some are all women, you know,

43:17

maybe, I have a group that meets monthly at home

43:20

of about nine women and we've met for um,

43:23

almost 10 years monthly.

43:29

-

Wow.

43:31

-

When we first started meeting they wanted to

43:32

meet twice a month, they were so excited.

43:33

(laughing)

43:35

And uh, we just, you know I,

43:37

I call the group our soul sisters,

43:41

you know, Oprah had an XM Sirus Radio show

43:44

called Soul Series.

43:47

And I loved all the people she interviewed

43:49

and the books she talked about and so we kinda began

43:52

reading and studying some of the books and authors

43:55

that she had on her show.

43:57

-

Can I just ask how these women got together?

44:01

Were these people you know you kind of brought together?

44:02

-

Yeah, these were all women I knew

44:04

and they're kind of, mostly in the neighborhood.

44:06

-

Yes?

44:08

-

But many of them didn't know each other.

44:09

And now they all do.

44:11

And then there's another group.

44:14

In 2004 to 2006,

44:17

I went through a spiritual direction program.

44:20

-

Yes?

44:23

-

And we met every weekend,

44:24

one weekend a month for two years.

44:28

So by the time our program was over,

44:30

we knew each other really well.

44:33

And most of us were women,

44:34

there was a couple men in the program.

44:36

So I asked the, one of the women who um,

44:38

facilitated that program if we could create a meeting,

44:44

a monthly meeting where we could bring our spouses

44:47

and significant others and so that started in 2006

44:50

and it continues today.

44:55

And we lost our, our...

44:57

Retreat center, our public space for that.

45:02

The nuns who

45:06

had that space sold it.

45:09

But um, we now meet in homes.

45:12

-

Oh.

45:16

-

Yeah, we wanted to keep meeting.

45:18

And it's so exciting to have a small group where my

45:20

husband comes and we can talk about our spirituality.

45:24

I mean, if it wasn't for, I've been at a couple groups

45:30

with my husband, a small Christian community

45:35

through St. Joan of Arc.

45:38

And if it wasn't for those gatherings,

45:42

there's so many things about our own spiritual journeys

45:45

that we wouldn't share with each other.

45:48

-

Right.

45:49

-

And what I find in these small groups is,

45:50

they're places where we can transform personally.

45:55

You know, like, it causes personal transformation.

46:00

So they're working groups in that

46:05

we really work on how to become,

46:07

you know, wake up to our best selves, you know?

46:13

And you know, I just read an article on

46:17

non-duality, you know and I think that probably arises

46:25

out of the Buddhist tradition, you know?

46:29

But every time I think in black

46:31

and white, I find that I'm stuck.

46:34

And when I think in both and, a door opens,

46:38

you know, so some of these concepts are just so freeing.

46:41

They really have helped me grow as a person.

46:46

-

I'm curious, if you don't mind my asking,

46:49

the group of um, your spiritual direction

46:51

with the spouses and significant others.

46:53

I'm curious, do you have a structure to it,

46:56

how do you have these conversations about spirituality?

46:58

-

When we started we, like I said,

47:01

we met at Women Well in St. Paul,

47:03

which is no longer there.

47:06

And we would go on one Friday a month

47:08

and we start with a soup supper

47:11

and it was so nice because we would sit in small tables

47:13

of four or six and then have, you know,

47:16

45 minutes where we could get to know each other.

47:19

And then we would gather in another room

47:24

and we had a video for about a half an hour

47:26

that we followed up with for an hour discussion.

47:30

And one of the um,

47:35

before Re-imagining,

47:39

I was introduced to creation spirituality

47:41

and I had taken some classes.

47:44

And Brian Swimme has a series of videos on,

47:48

he was influenced by Thomas Berry, you know

47:54

and Brian Swimme is a physicist.

47:57

And so he talks about the

47:59

intersection of modern science with spirituality.

48:02

My husband is a physicist.

48:06

-

Oh.

48:08

-

And I have a theology background.

48:08

-

Wow.

48:10

-

So we found his work fascinating.

48:11

-

Yes.

48:13

-

And so a lot of this, our journey in the early years

48:14

in this couples group was studying the work of

48:18

Brian Swimme and Thomas Berry and you know,

48:21

other people who were looking at

48:23

what does modern science have to say

48:27

that informs our spirituality today?

48:30

-

Fascinating, wow.

48:33

To get back to Re-imagining, this was really interesting

48:37

and related too, did your involvement in Re-imagining

48:40

affect your perspective on feminist theology or the church?

48:44

I think you've said some about that,

48:47

but anything else to say about that?

48:48

-

Well, you know, the work that

48:59

the speakers,

49:03

the emerging theologies

49:07

that were mentioned in the main talks,

49:09

it was exciting work and necessary work.

49:13

And I know it probably continues today.

49:22

Although, I'm disillusioned.

49:24

-

Mm, say some more about that.

49:26

-

I don't know...

49:28

How um, it changed our local perishes

49:35

in our local communities.

49:39

-

Mmhm, yep.

49:40

-

And I think a lot, I don't know, in my circles anyway,

49:43

a lot of us who question

49:47

and study and learn

49:51

have left the perish communities

49:54

because we don't fit there anymore.

49:58

-

And I'm curious, have most gone to

50:02

something like small groups?

50:04

Have they moved to a different church

50:06

or they've moved to small groups or they've just,

50:08

I mean, where, where have they gone?

50:11

-

I think, and I...

50:21

A lot of the people I have contact with

50:26

come out of the Catholic tradition.

50:28

-

Yeah, yes.

50:30

-

I think we tried sometime, maybe some of us

50:32

went to the Unitarian Universalist Church for a while.

50:33

And you know, personally, I loved the community,

50:37

I thought the minister was phenomenal with her sermons,

50:41

but there was a mystical

50:47

connection that I have that I couldn't connect to there.

50:51

It was more humanist.

50:56

It was more in the head and maybe the mystery

51:01

and the mystical feels more heart centered, you know?

51:06

So I find I can bring that to the small groups.

51:11

I think the call in these small groups that I'm involved in

51:14

is to be authentic, you know, to be who you are,

51:17

to bring your whole person, you don't have to hide a thing.

51:20

And we love each other no matter what, you know?

51:24

And we love each other into more wholeness.

51:26

So we don't walk into those groups being anybody but who

51:32

we are, you don't have to act like a professional, or--

51:36

(laughing)

51:39

Like you're, you know it all.

51:43

-

Right.

51:44

-

You're a seeker.

51:46

-

Yeah, yes, yes.

51:48

-

We're in it together.

51:50

It's all shared and, and leadership is all shared

51:51

and rotated and of course there's certain people that,

51:54

you know, rise to the occasion more than others

51:57

to kinda create the structure or facilitate.

52:00

You know, my opinion, I think it's shared among the group

52:07

is that we're all there to learn from each other,

52:11

we're mutual learners.

52:13

-

Yeah.

52:14

-

Mutual seekers.

52:16

-

Yeah, mmhm.

52:17

And as you look toward the future,

52:20

you know, you've said it doesn't feel like

52:24

that's really had much of an affect on the local church

52:26

and do you see the future in these small groups.

52:29

Or maybe another way to phrase it is

52:32

where do you see Re-imagining happening,

52:33

today or in the future?

52:36

-

Well, when I was in Re-imagining,

52:38

I think I kind of had a vision.

52:40

And I shared it with a friend of mine who was

52:45

Catholic married to a Jewish man.

52:47

And she said it sounded very similar to

52:51

what happens in their synagogue.

52:53

And it's the idea that, um,

52:55

and I did this with my children,

53:01

we would have little home rituals,

53:03

where I invited them to pick the reading

53:06

and the symbols of the season.

53:09

And we would gather, my son might invite

53:13

the neighbor boy over and we had our own little rituals

53:17

and they understood how to create...

53:22

A ritual from the symbols of the season, having a reading,

53:29

prayers for people important to our lives.

53:34

And we even would have,

53:37

share orange juice or crackers.

53:41

(laughing)

53:45

And they just loved being, um, involved in that, you know,

53:47

in creating it.

53:55

-

Yeah.

53:56

-

And then uh, we were involved in these small groups

53:58

where we'd meet in a retreat center or in each others homes

54:02

with you know, a bigger group of people.

54:06

And then we would go to our perish liturgy

54:09

some Sundays or maybe special holidays or something.

54:14

Well, this is my friend who was married to the Jewish man

54:17

said that's, they had their Friday ritual at home,

54:21

twice a month, they would meet with other families

54:25

to have their Friday ritual and then for the,

54:28

like maybe once a month or more,

54:32

they would go to the temple.

54:34

And so that's kind of the vision I had for a while.

54:37

-

Yeah.

54:40

-

But to be quite honest, today I don't have

54:44

the connection to the larger community.

54:47

-

Yeah.

54:50

-

So I'm not quite sure.

54:54

I know that the journey that

54:55

the communities I'm involved in is part of a larger group.

55:01

And actually Jean Houston, I read an

55:05

article of hers about jump time.

55:08

-

Mmhm.

55:11

-

And it's this idea that, I think that jump time means

55:12

there's big metamorphosis that kind of happen quick,

55:17

you know, over time or, and that a lot of those

55:22

are happening quickly now.

55:26

But she said the work that we do in these small groups

55:29

is transformative and it combines with the energy

55:35

of all the other small groups around the world

55:38

and it really makes a difference.

55:41

And that empowered the work that I do when I read that.

55:43

I thought, that's what I do!

55:48

-

Yes.

55:49

-

You know, it's personal transformation groups.

55:50

-

Yeah.

55:52

-

Around our inner spirituality and growth

55:54

and wakening consciousness and--

55:58

-

Would your hope or dream be that this would become

56:01

larger, it would be a larger community,

56:03

or do you think it's good to have it

56:06

stay in the smaller groups?

56:08

-

I don't know, I know in 1978,

56:13

I was invited to be part of the

56:17

Campus Ministry Team at Iowa State University.

56:20

I graduated from Iowa State and I was invited

56:23

to stay on staff and direct the student programs.

56:25

And one of the women on staff,

56:29

and this was a new thing then,

56:30

this was kinda right after Vatican II

56:31

and I mean, it was kind of unusual

56:34

to invite lay people to be part of parish staffs.

56:37

And one of the women who was on the staff with me said,

56:40

"The future of the church is in small groups."

56:45

I still remember that from like 1978.

56:48

You know, just a conversation with her.

56:52

But I don't know and I don't think a lot of us know.

56:56

I think we're in the midst of a huge paradigm shift

56:59

and I think we might not even see it in our lifetime.

57:03

I don't understand, you know, like,

57:09

there's a lot, you know, a lot of people

57:11

are quite concerned about our youth,

57:12

who aren't involved in churches today.

57:13

I have um...

57:16

Two children about 30 years old.

57:19

And they do not,

57:23

they are not involved in a church community.

57:25

We sent them to Catholic school and uh...

57:29

I'm not concerned about it.

57:36

Because I think um,

57:38

in my, in the terminology

57:41

of the church I grew up in,

57:43

we said the holy spirit was the evangelizer.

57:46

And I believe there's a movement happening

57:50

and I think it's gonna be better,

57:53

because I think the transformation

57:57

is not coming from an outside force,

57:59

imposing it on a group of people,

58:03

but I think the transformation is happening

58:04

in the hearts and souls of people.

58:07

And I would say that my children are spiritual,

58:10

but not religious and they're very good people

58:15

and loving and I don't know how it's gonna play,

58:19

I have a granddaughter now, I have no idea how it's,

58:22

but I'm not as worried as some people.

58:25

Because I trust in that spirit.

58:28

-

Yeah.

58:30

-

I trust.

58:31

Because, how did we come to faith, you know?

58:32

Something bigger than us called us.

58:37

-

Yeah.

58:40

-

Yeah.

-

Mmhm.

58:41

-

And I found that

58:43

even with my children,

58:47

there had to be a lot of on learning, you know.

58:49

Like, I remember my second grade daughter

58:51

saying a prayer once, "Oh God, please change me."

58:55

And I'm like why?

58:59

You know, who told you you needed to be changed?

59:02

You know, like--

59:06

-

And what did she mean by that?

59:07

-

Well, I think they're,

59:09

we grew up somewhat with a theology that uh,

59:11

we were sinners who needed salvation, you know?

59:15

As a mother, I just, I found that sad,

59:24

that somehow she had picked up on that too.

59:28

-

Yeah.

59:30

-

Yeah.

-

Yeah.

59:31

-

Yeah.

But I empowered my children to question.

59:34

I took a class at United Theological Seminary,

59:37

a constructive theology class

59:39

and our professor said the more

59:41

questions you have, the higher your grade.

59:43

(laughing)

59:45

So as a mother, I encouraged my children to question.

59:47

One of my proudest parental moments was,

1:00:01

my son, in the eighth grade in the Catholic school,

1:00:04

the religion teacher was telling him

1:00:08

about the churches stance on homosexuality.

1:00:10

And so this would have been,

1:00:14

you know, several years ago now.

1:00:16

And he raised his hand and he said,

1:00:19

"If God's that prejudiced,

1:00:21

"I'm not going to believe in that God."

1:00:22

And I thought, what courage.

1:00:24

He found his voice in junior high and what courage.

1:00:26

-

Yeah.

1:00:31

-

It wasn't a supported thing to say then.

1:00:33

-

Mmhm.

1:00:35

-

Like it is today.

1:00:36

-

Mmhm.

1:00:37

-

Yeah.

That would have been in the late 90s probably.

1:00:40

But anyway, I don't know what the future brings,

1:00:46

I just, you know, there's a spirituality

1:00:48

of being present to the moment.

1:00:51

-

Yes.

1:00:53

(laughing)

1:00:54

Yes.

1:00:55

-

It's frustrating though.

1:00:56

You know, it's lonely.

1:00:58

-

Yeah?

1:00:59

-

I miss the larger gatherings, I miss the singing.

1:01:01

Like, I feel like there's not even a lot of music today

1:01:06

that speaks to the spirituality that I embrace.

1:01:08

I'm old enough now to know that what I believe today

1:01:14

could change 10 years from now and that's exciting.

1:01:18

I really kind of like the new, you know?

1:01:22

And yet there's things that are lost.

1:01:26

And ritual is important to me, symbol is important to me.

1:01:29

Um, I think there's, in some of our sacraments,

1:01:33

there was some transformation that happened

1:01:37

and so there is a loss when you don't have those.

1:01:39

And yet, um,

1:01:42

in the small circles I'm in, sometimes it gives us

1:01:45

an opportunity to create some of those

1:01:48

together in a new way.

1:01:51

So we're continuing the Re-imagining work.

1:01:54

-

Yes, you are.

1:01:56

Well, what would you say is

1:01:58

the greatest legacy of Re-imagining, for you?

1:01:59

-

It was so exciting to have

1:02:07

the questions and the...

1:02:12

Experiences in my personal life

1:02:18

being spoken about in a public, global platform.

1:02:21

You know, it made, I think a lot of us women who were there,

1:02:28

you know, we were just like,

1:02:32

we felt so affirmed and at home.

1:02:34

-

Mmhm.

1:02:38

-

And it felt, it felt...

1:02:41

You felt it in your soul, you know?

1:02:48

Like I said it felt like I'd waited my whole life, you know?

1:02:51

(laughing)

1:02:54

Yeah.

1:02:55

-

Yeah, yeah.

-

It was so affirming and um...

1:02:57

The backlash was so disappointing.

1:03:01

-

Mmhm.

1:03:04

-

Yeah.

1:03:06

So one of the freedoms I think someone like myself has,

1:03:09

I used to work in the churches.

1:03:13

That was my, you know, and I mourned that,

1:03:16

I've mourned that I grew to be someone

1:03:19

who didn't fit there anymore.

1:03:22

Or I mourned that the church couldn't open and grow.

1:03:23

-

Yeah.

1:03:28

-

I felt a little betrayed by that.

1:03:29

But on the other hand...

1:03:32

There's no one telling me what I can believe or can't

1:03:38

or what I can say or I can't.

1:03:41

And that is, there's a freedom in that.

1:03:44

-

Mmhm.

1:03:46

-

It's hard to be called heretical.

1:03:48

-

Yes.

1:03:51

(laughing)

1:03:52

-

Oh worry about being excommunicated.

1:03:53

-

Right.

1:03:55

-

Or moved to the, you know,

1:03:57

you're not included in the group anymore.

1:03:58

And so there's a freedom that comes

1:04:02

and I've met so many wonderful, imaginative,

1:04:04

creative, gifted people on the edges.

1:04:09

-

Mmhm.

1:04:13

-

So.

1:04:18

And I guess I need to say that I feel like there's

1:04:21

a community growing on the internet, you know?

1:04:25

Maybe even on television.

1:04:33

Like I said, I'm kind of a, I love Oprah,

1:04:34

and the work she's doing on her

1:04:38

OWN channel with the Soul Series

1:04:40

and so many of her other programming.

1:04:41

The World Wide Web and social media

1:04:47

is a great tool for some of these,

1:04:51

you know meditation and...

1:04:55

We have access to whatever we want at the tip of a finger.

1:05:01

-

Mmhm.

1:05:03

And that actually brings me to kind of my final question is,

1:05:04

what would you include, the community is

1:05:08

working on a website, a Re-imagining website

1:05:10

and do you have ideas about what you would want included?

1:05:13

Who would benefit from it, how they would find out about it.

1:05:17

You know, what are your thoughts

1:05:20

about a Re-imagining website?

1:05:21

-

I think that...

1:05:33

If that website could connect us to

1:05:38

some of the cutting edge theology today.

1:05:41

Some of the current issues and maybe a broader vision

1:05:47

of where people think

1:05:51

things are headed or you know,

1:05:56

or how many of us are in a certain movement.

1:05:58

You know, I think that would be helpful.

1:06:02

That's what I turn, like, I'd love like a TED Talk

1:06:05

or something, you know?

1:06:08

Where it's 20 minutes and you hear something that's

1:06:09

somebody's, a new thing that somebody's given a lot of,

1:06:14

maybe two decades of work to, you know, in a short.

1:06:19

-

Yeah.

1:06:23

-

And so it would be great to have access to

1:06:23

some of the theologians today or,

1:06:29

like I said, just a broader vision of

1:06:32

church or spirituality, some connection to that.

1:06:37

-

Mmhm.

1:06:41

Good, Kathy, this has been wonderful.

1:06:45

But let me ask, is there something we haven't discussed

1:06:48

that you would like to talk about?

1:06:50

-

Well, I just want to re-cap maybe.

1:06:58

-

Good, do that.

1:07:00

-

And emphasize

what was so important to me.

1:07:01

-

Please do.

1:07:02

-

That the Re-imagining conference happened

1:07:07

and it empowered,

1:07:09

in my life,

1:07:13

a small group of women to claim their, um...

1:07:15

Gifts and to create space to develop them

1:07:22

and I think we were just one small group of how many?

1:07:27

You know.

1:07:32

I feel like, you know, I have a whole file of our work

1:07:33

and it was, it was, like the Re-imagining conference,

1:07:36

we put a lot of work into our worship aids

1:07:40

and our, you know,

1:07:44

we created our rituals from scratch every time.

1:07:48

And we used the Sophia blessing every time,

1:07:50

I should say that.

1:07:53

-

Did you, did you, OK.

-

Yeah, that was our closing.

1:07:55

-

Wow.

1:07:56

-

But you know, I know of a, you know, probably

1:07:57

four other ritual groups,

1:08:03

maybe not sprung out of Re-imagining.

1:08:05

One particularly that was, but that were doing similar work

1:08:07

so I think that, um...

1:08:10

We don't know, really what women who walked out the

1:08:15

door did with that, but it's probably been amazing.

1:08:20

And it's exciting for me to talk to you

1:08:25

so that I can share, you know,

1:08:29

the work that we did for about a decade.

1:08:31

You know, that was so important and yet...

1:08:34

Hasn't really gone down in history, you know?

1:08:41

-

Mmhm, mmhm, exactly.

1:08:44

-

Like I said, probably the gift to us,

1:08:54

who were Catholic women, forming these small groups,

1:08:56

we weren't involved in, it would have been really exciting

1:09:00

for me to be able to bring some of this to a local perish

1:09:03

and do this work with people.

1:09:08

And I tried, in some ways.

1:09:10

-

Did you?

1:09:12

-

Yeah.

But you run into so much opposition.

1:09:14

-

Yeah.

1:09:19

-

And it's so discouraging.

1:09:20

-

Was it mostly from priests?

1:09:22

Was it from other members of the perish?

1:09:23

-

Both.

1:09:29

-

Both, mmhm.

-

I don't think a lot of the people were there, you know?

1:09:31

-

Mmhm, yes.

1:09:34

-

And maybe still aren't, you know?

1:09:38

-

Yeah.

1:09:41

-

Yeah, as progressive as some perishes are,

1:09:43

the minute I walk in the door

1:09:47

and there's only a male presiding,

1:09:48

a lot of people don't even recognize that that's limiting.

1:09:51

They're so used to it.

1:09:58

Yeah.

1:10:00

So I appreciate how Re-imagining supported

1:10:04

my theological exploration.

1:10:08

-

Mmhm.

1:10:10

-

And connected me with people, women around the globe

1:10:12

asking such similar questions

1:10:18

and having similar experiences.

1:10:22

How exciting, in my lifetime,

1:10:23

to be connected to that global community.

1:10:26

-

Mmhm.

1:10:29

-

Yeah.

And that's maybe what can happen on the web.

1:10:31

-

Yes, yes.

1:10:35

-

We can continue it.

1:10:36

-

Right.

1:10:38

Thank you so much, Kathy.

1:10:40

I really appreciate your reflections, thank you.

1:10:42

We're done.

1:11:00

Deacon-Weber, Kathy

Transcript

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Sallie Bingham Center for Women's History & Culture