Morrison, Susan / Re-Imagining Collection / Duke Digital Repository

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Well, Susan, thank you so much

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for agreeing to be interviewed,

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and I first would like some background information.

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If you could state your full name, please.

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My full name is Susan Merch Morrison.

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Thank you, and are you lay or clergy?

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I am clergy.

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And your denominational affiliation?

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I'm United Methodist.

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Great, and, Susan, when and where were you born?

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I was in born in 1943, January 3rd in Dunkirk, New York.

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Okay, thank you, and where did you go to school,

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graduate or divinity school?

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You want just the graduate schools?

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Oh, no, you can tell me all of your schooling,

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That's fine, too.

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I went to Julian University for college.

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Mm-hm.

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I went to Boston University School of Theology

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for my Masters of Divinity,

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and Wesley Theological School for my D. mins,

1:01

and then I did some study overseas.

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MM, that's great.

1:09

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What work or ministry were you

1:12

doing at the time of Re-Imagining?

1:13

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I was a Bishop in the Philadelphia

1:17

area for the United Methodist Church.

1:20

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Okay, great, and what work or ministry

1:23

did you do after Re-Imagining?

1:25

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I continued serving as Bishop there and then I had another

1:28

assignment as Bishop and then I retired.

1:31

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Okay, great, Susan, do you recall how and when

1:34

you first became aware of feminist theology?

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Yes, I was in seminary

1:43

at Boston University School of Theology.

1:44

I had just come back from what's called

1:46

a short-term program at a United Methodist Church.

1:49

I spent four years in Brazil and I went to Boston in my,

1:51

I say that because I was out of the country,

1:56

and a lot of out of the thought

1:58

of what was going on here in the States at the time.

2:00

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Sure.

2:02

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I came back, went to Boston, and when I was there,

2:03

there were only three women, I believe,

2:06

in our class in Boston in the Master Divinity program,

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and I can't remember who told us about a group of women

2:12

who were gathering to talk about women in the church,

2:16

and we met at Mary Daily's house.

2:20

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Oh, really.

2:23

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And I was talking to a friend of mine who was one

2:25

of the others who was at Boston at the same time,

2:28

and we remember she was angry,

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and that was our response to her,

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but I remember we were fascinated by

2:36

the conversations that went on,

2:42

and I think we went to her place

2:46

maybe once or two or three times,

2:48

but that was my, I think my first memory.

2:50

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MM-hm, and I'm curious, you said, you know,

2:53

your fist reaction was she's angry.

2:55

How did that evolve your view of it?

2:57

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It was my first encounter with anything related

3:03

to women theology, a feminist perspective, anything,

3:07

so it was all new.

3:13

I don't remember the details, I just remember we thought,

3:15

boy, she has some strong feelings.

3:18

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Yes.

3:20

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And she had every right to.

3:22

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Sure.

3:23

She had every right to if you know her story,

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but I'm just saying as a new person

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kind of walking and hearing all that for the first time,

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and I realize we were in her home.

3:33

Now, I think of it, what an honor it was,

3:35

and at the time, it was just something we were doing.

3:38

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Yes, oh, that's amazing.

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Would you recall how you learned more about

3:43

feminist theology, came to identify with it?

3:47

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Let me say how that kind of emerged

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in an experiential way.

3:51

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Yeah.

3:54

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When I was assigned to, I studied overseas for a year

3:55

after seminary in Rome and in Argentina, six months each,

4:01

and I then came back and was assigned

4:06

in the Baltimore-Washington conference to a church

4:09

in Silver Spring, Maryland, just outside Washington, D.C.

4:14

There were very few of us women clergy,

4:19

but were one place where in the Methodist Church,

4:23

and we were the leaders in terms

4:25

of assigning women because Bishops appointed.

4:27

I started getting us together.

4:33

We were about three or four, fix or six,

4:35

no more than that, would come to my home and meet,

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and this is in an early time, early 70s.

4:39

Out of that, one of the women was a musician,

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and we got talking about how do we put,

4:49

translate our experience as women into what we're doing?

4:52

And we created liturgies and we created music

4:58

that became quite well known in the early clergy

5:01

women gatherings in the Methodist Church.

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They came out of Baltimore-Washington,

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and some of the songs are, I'm trying to think.

5:09

All of the sudden my mind's gone blank,

5:14

but some of those songs are still used,

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and the point is, we got together

5:19

and we started singing the songs for us,

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and they came out of our experience.

5:26

They were written out of our experience.

5:28

And then we said, wouldn't it be neat

5:31

if we did this in some places?

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And some of the churches,

5:35

often with women pastors, would invite us,

5:37

and the clergy women's group would sing then,

5:40

do our little concerts in these churches,

5:44

and we were struck,

5:47

because the imagery we were using was feminist,

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we were struck by how the women responded to us,

5:53

like it was opening windows and doors.

5:57

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Oh.

6:00

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And it really inspired us, and we did it for ourselves

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to survive to be honest with you,

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but we found that it connected,

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and not just with women, but with some men, too.

6:10

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Yeah.

6:12

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That it connected with others,

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and the Baltimore Clergy Women,

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it was called Baltimore Congress at the time,

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Clergy Women's Group became well known.

6:20

We sang at general conference.

6:21

We sang at the northeast jurisdiction,

6:24

and our songs, of course, were sung

6:26

at all the early clergy women gatherings.

6:28

So, that kind of was where I connected

6:32

first with it in a real sense.

6:36

Then there were books that were beginning to be written

6:40

in a liturgies, women's liturgies and stuff like that,

6:42

and, of course, we were beginning to gather those,

6:45

but we were writing our own,

6:48

and it was a really exhilarating time.

6:49

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That is great, that is amazing,

6:55

and just to make sure I understood,

6:57

so you were saying it was women and men in the pews

6:59

who were going to these concerts who were reacting to it?

7:04

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Most of it in reality, we would have these concerts.

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They were kind of informal at first,

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but then we were asked different places to go,

7:14

and lay people would come.

7:17

You know, it would be advertised in the church

7:19

that the clergy women are going to sing.

7:20

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Yeah.

7:22

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And men came to it, too, but what struck us

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was how it hit a note with some men,

7:27

but especially with some of the women who came,

7:30

but not all of them.

7:32

They didn't all come rushing up to us,

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but we were struck by the response because

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we used inclusive language and we talked about Mother God,

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and it was just an exhilarating time for us,

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and we would have our own retreats where we would develop

7:47

more of the music and that kind of thing.

7:51

And we had two really good clergy women

7:53

who were musicians and could write the songs.

7:58

They're the ones who did the most of it.

8:00

I still have the tapes and books of music,

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because again, it became quite well known

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among earl clergy women who came to gatherings

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of clergy women and retreats throughout the country.

8:15

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Oh, I love this, and once again,

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I think this needs to be saved, too.

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This is an important part of the history.

8:23

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It really is and Baltimore had quite a reputation,

8:26

and we had a lot of women because Bishop James K. Mathews

8:30

was very supportive, kept appointing them.

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We have seminaries here in the Washington area,

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Wesley and Howard, and so, women who were coming

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to study would have student appointments, etc,

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and some of them stayed,

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so we became one of the larger groups of clergy women

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serving in ministry in the Methodist Church.

8:51

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Oh.

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If you ask any of us old folks, we're still in ministry

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because of that music and those gatherings.

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Wow, that is great.

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I did not know about that,

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and that's an important part of the story, too.

9:10

I was wondering if we could talk about,

9:13

before we get to Re-Imagining,

9:15

I know another important part of the story

9:16

is the book Wisdom's Feast.

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Two of the authors were Hal Taussig

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and Susan Cady Cole, who I've also interviewed,

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and I know that you're a part of that story, too.

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So, I wondered if you could please talk about what happened

9:29

there with Wisdom's Feast and the charges that were brought?

9:34

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Right, well, I want to say one thing.

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I was a little naive.

9:42

I was elected Bishop at 45

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age 45, and in many ways

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didn't have a lot of experience in the church.

9:50

That sounds crazy, but I had kind of an unusual background,

9:52

and I came out of the Baltimore-Washington Conference,

9:56

which was a more open liberal conference than some of them,

9:58

and I'm a child of the 60s,

10:02

so I was part of the protest movements and stuff.

10:04

All of this is saying I thought there was more

10:06

ability to discuss differences that exist

10:09

in churches during that period of time.

10:14

In some ways, I think I want to step back

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and say this, too, I believe that a lot of it,

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and it goes to what you're asking me about,

10:26

Hal Taussig and Susan Cady's language with me.

10:29

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Sure.

10:32

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I believe some of the backlash,

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and it really started back in '72, I suppose,

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with some of the disciplinary changes,

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especially related to homosexuality.

10:40

And I was at that general conference in Baltimore,

10:43

but a lot of that backlash over that issue

10:46

and other issues was developing because

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at that time it became a real conscientious effort

10:52

in the United Methodist Church to be more inclusive,

10:56

and that meant people of color, and that meant women

10:59

having more opportunities and more leadership roles,

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and I think (Susan coughs)

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Excuse me.

11:09

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Yeah.

11:09

I think that is key in how some

11:10

of this other stuff developed.

11:13

In some ways, it's like the backlash today in the political

11:15

world relating to the changing

11:19

demographics and who's in leadership.

11:23

The same thing, I think, happened in the church,

11:27

in the Methodist, and other churches, too,

11:29

The United Methodist Church.

11:31

Now, in that context,

11:33

and I was assigned to the Philadelphia area.

11:34

I don't remember when their book came out

11:36

in relationship to Re-Imagining,

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but I think it was about the same time

11:40

because it was inclusive language,

11:43

it was the use of Sophia for God,

11:45

and also, you're going to hear from Heather,

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about what happened to her through relationship to that too

11:53

because Heather and I were good friends in that period.

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We still are, but were in that period,

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and were very much in contact

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with one another over what was happening.

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Okay, in the book, there became a huge backlash,

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and I don't know if it was partly said

12:11

by Re-Imagining before that book came out,

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I don't know the timing of it.

12:19

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Actually, it was before Re-Imagining.

12:20

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It was?

12:23

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Yeah, it was.

12:23

Well, it became more well known after,

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let's put it that way.

12:28

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It did, yes.

12:29

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And, okay, and it became,

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people were already were angry at me

12:32

for going to Re-Imagining and defending it,

12:36

so you had all that context.

12:38

So, some one in that conference, district PA

12:40

brought charges against Helen Sue on heresy.

12:44

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Yes.

12:48

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And the first step in that is that you have a meeting,

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and you talk with one another in a reconciling way.

12:53

That was the first step in the process

12:57

that's used to adjudicate issues the people have.

12:59

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Can I just interrupt?

13:05

So, who would meet?

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Were you present at that meeting?

13:07

Who would meet?

13:09

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Yeah, I asked Mark Reims who was the person who did it.

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Are you listening to my cat?

13:14

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A little bit, that's fine, yes.

13:16

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Is this going to be on the tape, oh dear.

13:18

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Don't worry.

13:21

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Okay, Mark Reims brought charges against him.

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I asked Mark to meet me with Susan and Hal in my office

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for what's called kind of a first step in the process

13:32

of talking to one another our differences.

13:39

Mark refused and when Mark refused,

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I refused to process the complaint.

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Yeah.

13:49

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Because if we as colleagues aren't wiling

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to sit down and at least hear one another,

13:54

talk to, listen to one another,

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I don't feel that it should go any further.

14:00

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Mm-hm.

14:03

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When that happened, then the backlash came on me.

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Mark filed a complaint against me,

14:08

and a lot of the people in the churches,

14:12

and a lot of the conservative clergy

14:14

really ratcheted up their anger towards me,

14:17

and so it really became, well frankly,

14:21

more focused on me, I think at least in what

14:23

I dealt with than it did for Hal and Susan.

14:26

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MMM, mm-hm.

14:29

And I know there was an article in Good News about it,

14:33

and it even became an issue at the '92 general conference.

14:36

There was a petition to --

14:42

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Well --

14:43

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Yeah, go ahead.

14:44

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I don't know, I don't remember the timeline,

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but there were several things that happened.

14:48

One of them, interesting enough,

14:51

is that western Pennsylvania passed a resolution,

14:52

at their annual conference, condemning me.

14:57

I mean I'm using the word condemning

15:00

related to this, all this,

15:04

which is very, very unusual.

15:06

I don't think that's ever been done before

15:08

where you do that against a Bishop from another area.

15:10

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Yes.

15:13

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And that was one thing that happened,

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I mean, during that period.

15:18

So, there was a lot of,

15:22

in my own area that I served, there were a lot of letters

15:23

and a lot of feelings leveled about it all,

15:27

and it all got caught in this whole change

15:30

that's taking place where women were in leadership,

15:34

the imagery that was happening.

15:37

Also, I chaired the committee

15:39

that developed the book of worship.

15:41

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Oh, okay.

15:43

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And one of the controversies is we put in some

15:45

inclusive imagery of God in some of the prayers,

15:50

and one of the interesting dynamics on that is,

15:55

I mean, you're getting more than you want.

15:57

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No, this is all what I want.

15:58

Keep it up, this is great.

16:00

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There's all more strings to it.

16:02

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And one of the ironies is

16:03

there were two Bishops on the committee.

16:04

The other was Bishop Borgen from Sweden.

16:06

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Oh.

16:08

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I think he was from Sweden or Norway.

16:10

Any case, was on the committee, too,

16:12

and he comes out of a much more conservative tradition,

16:14

and when we were going with some of the imagery,

16:18

and I think it was the baker woman God image,

16:21

he filed a complaint.

16:25

Now you've got to under --

16:27

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Oh, Susan, are you there?

16:29

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I'm there.

16:30

Because I had to defend it at the judicial council.

16:32

I had just been elected, just before I was elected Bishop,

16:35

and actually, it would have been the first clergywoman

16:41

on the judicial council of the church at the meeting in May.

16:45

So, I was going on the judicial council.

16:52

In July, I was elected Bishop.

16:55

I was not running when I was elected.

16:58

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Huh.

17:00

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I was elected Bishop,

17:01

so, I had a very short term

17:04

as a clergywoman on the judicial council.

17:06

They had already done all the stationery,

17:11

so they used the stationery the whole quadrennium

17:13

with my name on it.

17:15

It was really pretty funny,

17:16

but what was interesting is,

17:17

I had to defend a complaint that was filed

17:19

to the judicial council about

17:24

the book of worship and inclusive language.

17:26

So here I am going before the judicial council.

17:28

A lot of them were sort of seeing me for the first time.

17:31

I had been their colleague

17:34

and yet wasn't their colleague very long.

17:35

It was a very, kind of ironic situation.

17:38

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Wow, is that the one where they changed

17:42

the language to like a baker woman?

17:44

Was that part of that issue as I recall?

17:46

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Yes.

17:48

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Yeah, so wow, so you were in the middle of that, too.

17:49

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So, well, it adds up.

17:52

You know, it just creates layers.

17:54

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It does.

17:56

Now, the formal charge of heresy from what I've read

17:58

was brought against you in January of '93.

18:02

What happened with that charge of heresy?

18:05

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Okay, that's another interesting thing

18:08

because the college, see it goes through the college first,

18:10

and my colleague's comments passed it on

18:15

to, I can't remember, I think it's the joint review,

18:19

I can't remember what the next stage, step was.

18:21

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I know some of my women colleague Bishops were upset

18:24

by that because they said, and I agree with them,

18:27

the college Bishops didn't have to pass it on,

18:32

and they just said, well, it's better to pass it on

18:34

so the conversation can be there.

18:36

But what that did is it raised

18:39

the ante and the publicity about it.

18:40

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Yeah.

18:43

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So that, because they passed it on,

18:44

it made the newspapers, the general newspapers.

18:47

It gave it a credibility it would not have had otherwise.

18:51

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Yeah.

18:56

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This isn't to knock my college Bishops,

19:01

but I do think they were insensitive in a sense

19:04

to all the dynamics going on in that period

19:08

because they weren't dealing with any of that.

19:11

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Yes.

19:13

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They thought, oh, we'll just pass it on

19:15

and then it can be talked about, that would be good,

19:16

but what it did, it gave it another level of credibility.

19:19

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Yeah, and I'm curious, Susan, I mean,

19:22

this was a charge of heresy brought against you

19:26

as a Bishop by a clergy person, clergyman, right?

19:29

How often does this happen?

19:34

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Not very often, especially on the issue of heresy.

19:37

I don't know if it's ever happened before.

19:40

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I wondered, yeah.

19:42

And I'm curious, Susan, how did you,

19:44

this sounds just incredibly difficult.

19:48

Where did you find support?

19:49

How did you maintain your balance

19:51

in the midst of all this?

19:54

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Being elected as Bishop and serving

20:02

as Bishop was a gift beyond measure.

20:04

It really was, and, as I've said many a time,

20:07

I would take nothing for the journey.

20:12

It was rich, but it wasn't always easy,

20:14

and I went into a firestorm.

20:21

I was the first woman Bishop

20:24

in the whole northeast at this time

20:26

and the first one ever elected in the northeast,

20:29

and so, I was new, and there's no question

20:31

that being a woman at that time

20:35

created some reaction and some doubt,

20:37

so it didn't take much for some people for them

20:40

to reinforce their already concerns

20:45

by things that happened, if that makes sense.

20:48

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Mm-hm.

20:51

I was thinking after you contacted me,

20:56

there's a way in which, probably my whole ministry,

20:58

and I have a lot of wonderful things that happened

21:03

and a lot of things that were great.

21:05

What really probably framed out the whole

21:08

Re-Imagining experience because there's a way

21:10

in which I never could.

21:13

For people who were more traditionally conservative

21:15

especially, I could never shake the image,

21:19

and you could not believe the kind of letters

21:22

and nastiness that came my way.

21:26

It got to be that my secretary said,

21:29

you know, we're just not going to show you all this stuff.

21:31

Being called a witch was simple in compare.

21:36

I mean, it was just nasty.

21:38

Now, this isn't a lot of people,

21:41

but it was a fairly strong reaction.

21:42

Going back to Re-Imagining, we can get back to it.

21:47

One of the memories that I have the strongest

21:50

was down in the eastern Pennsylvania,

21:52

I mean the Peninsula Delaware, where I now live.

21:54

There was a woman, clergywoman no less,

21:59

and she ended up becoming very involved in Good News,

22:03

and was in charge of, I can't think of what you call it now,

22:05

the group that tries to change people who are gay to strait.

22:09

I can't think of their name right now.

22:12

I mean, her name is Karen Booth.

22:14

During the middle of the Re-Imagining controversy,

22:20

after some of us tried to defend it, and I did,

22:23

she invited a woman professor of Bible from Gordon-Conwell

22:26

to come down and she had a huge rally down here,

22:33

and this woman came down

22:37

and just attacked everything about Re-Imagining

22:40

and the whole theology, everything.

22:42

And I remember going to the meeting with some

22:46

of the cabinet and I sat in the back

22:48

because I wasn't, I didn't, there was no way,

22:50

and I was so appalled at what I was hearing

22:53

and knew that I wouldn't even be listened to

22:56

in terms of the feeling level that was coming out.

22:59

The cabinet and I just flipped out in the back.

23:02

Now, some people knew we were there,

23:05

not everyone did.

23:06

But the intensity of the feeling is what struck me,

23:08

and I would say that some of the health issues I've had

23:14

were result of the ministry of absorption.

23:18

You just absorb some of that stuff.

23:20

I mean, no matter what you say, you just absorb it,

23:24

or at least that was my way of dealing with it.

23:27

The other interesting thing to say

23:30

about the early women Bishops, too,

23:32

and this sounds more negative,

23:34

'cause all of us would say the same thing,

23:35

we take nothing for the journey,

23:37

but probably seven out of the first nine

23:39

women Bishops have all had cancer.

23:42

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Oh, gee.

23:45

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And I get breast cancer,

23:46

and it doesn't mean that your system

23:47

may have been vulnerable to have it anyways,

23:50

but I do think some of the early things

23:53

we had to deal with didn't help.

23:56

-

Yeah, mm-hm, the stress, sure.

23:59

I was going to ask about,

24:04

just to make sure I understand this,

24:06

that charge of heresy was passed on.

24:08

It was eventually dismissed?

24:10

What eventually happened?

24:12

-

It was, I think, I'm trying to remember

24:13

what the name of the next committee was.

24:15

A committee and joint review,

24:18

I can't remember what it is in the jurisdictional level,

24:19

but I had to go before them and meet.

24:21

-

You did.

24:23

-

And they did not pass it on to the next group,

24:24

which may have been the committee on investigation

24:26

or going to trial.

24:29

Again, I don't remember, the process has

24:30

changed in the church several times

24:32

in terms of the different stages you go through.

24:34

But I did have to go before the committee

24:37

on the jurisdictional level, I do remember that.

24:39

-

Do you remember what that experience was like?

24:42

-

What I do remember,

24:46

I don't know if Heather's going to say anything about it,

24:48

is Heather came down to my home in Philadelphia

24:50

before I went before it,

24:53

and some of the other clergywomen

24:55

from Philadelphia and some came,

24:58

or maybe some from Baltimore,

25:00

and we had some rituals we did that evening

25:02

to prepare me for it.

25:06

That was sort of our way of claiming authority

25:09

or control over the situation, let me just put it that way.

25:13

-

Yeah.

25:17

-

I don't know whether Heather will say

25:18

anything about it or not,

25:19

but she will probably acknowledge that she did do that.

25:21

That's all I'll say about the ritual.

25:25

We had a kind of ritual to prepare me

25:26

for the session the next day.

25:30

-

That's great, and the session basically went okay.

25:33

I mean, they did dismiss the charges.

25:36

-

Yes.

25:39

-

Yeah, okay, well, thank you.

25:40

-

But the heresy label stayed with me for many people,

25:43

not everyone, not the majority,

25:47

but being called a heretic, being called a witch,

25:49

all that kind of thing,

25:56

there was a part of that that stayed with me and my name.

25:58

Let's put it that way.

26:03

-

So, you weren't just called a heretic.

26:04

You were also called a witch.

26:05

-

Oh, yeah, yes.

26:07

-

Okay, is there anything else more

26:12

you want to say about the Wisdom's Feast thing

26:13

before I move on to Re-Imagining?

26:16

-

Sue and Hal are wonderful leaders and wonderful thinkers.

26:26

I was proud and many people in eastern PA

26:30

were proud to have them as part of the community.

26:33

I would do the same thing again.

26:37

I thought the charges were wrong.

26:39

To be honest with you, I'm glad I had

26:42

sort of a legal reason not to pass it

26:45

because I'm not sure I would have passed it anyways.

26:46

-

Yeah, mm-hm.

26:49

-

Because to me, it was wrong.

26:51

-

Mm-hm, yep, yeah.

26:53

Well, should we move to Re-Imagining?

26:57

So, you were at the '93 conference, right?

26:58

-

Right, I was.

27:01

-

Good, do you recall what led

27:02

to your participation in the conference?

27:04

-

Well, I remember seeing the advertisement, and again,

27:07

going back to my experiences with the Baltimore clergywomen,

27:11

how important liturgies, how important those gatherings,

27:16

and how important the early United Methodist

27:20

clergywomen gatherings were.

27:23

I mean, they were just Balm of Gilead,

27:26

and because of that, you know,

27:29

I saw the advertisement and said I'm going to this.

27:32

And the irony of it is,

27:34

it was the same time as a council of bishops meeting,

27:36

and I have to laugh, I still have the image of me

27:39

pulling my suitcase, trying not to go by the windows

27:43

where the council were still meeting

27:46

because I went to the council meeting,

27:48

I just left early.

27:50

-

Okay.

27:51

-

And I think I thought some of the other

27:53

women Bishops were going,

27:55

but I'm not sure I had checked to see,

27:56

but I have this image of pulling my suitcase,

27:58

slipping out of the council of Bishops' meeting,

28:02

going to the Re-Imagining conference,

28:04

never knowing it was going to be controversial, mind you.

28:05

-

Right.

28:08

-

But I still have that image of me doing that.

28:09

-

Oh, that's a great image.

28:13

-

So it really comes under my earlier experience

28:14

in the clergywomen's gatherings

28:16

and the Baltimore-Washington Clergywomen

28:18

to say this is something I needed

28:20

to be a part of and wanted to be a part of.

28:21

-

Sure, and I'm wondering,

28:25

what memories do you have of that conference>

28:27

What stands out to you?

28:30

What was your experience of it like?

28:32

-

Well, it was exhilarating

28:35

to be with so many people who understood the journey,

28:37

although in some ways they were all different.

28:43

The imagery used, the speeches given,

28:47

the worship experiences,

28:51

the mantra, "Bless Sophia, dream the vision,

28:54

share the wisdom dwelling deep within," I still use that.

28:56

When some of the clergywomen gather,

29:00

we have gatherings over dinner, we sing that.

29:02

We still sing that.

29:05

-

Really?

29:06

You still do, oh that's great.

29:07

-

We still sing that.

29:09

And I think what stunned me was,

29:13

it never dawned on me, I don't know why,

29:17

that it would be controversial.

29:20

So, we who came back from that experience were high,

29:22

as you are when you go to a gathering

29:26

that's just, you know, just wonderful,

29:29

and you're high about it,

29:33

and all of the sudden you're kind of slammed in the face

29:35

with all this reaction to it.

29:38

I must have been naive at the time, but it didn't

29:43

dawn on me there would be a lot of controversy,

29:45

and then it hit the fan.

29:48

-

Yes, and before we go to that,

29:50

'cause this is really interesting to me.

29:52

Many people have told that to me,

29:53

but it's interesting that even after your experience

29:55

with Wisdom's Feast and Sophia,

29:57

it just still didn't seem like there would be a controversy.

30:00

-

No.

30:03

You see, you're checking the timeline.

30:05

Did I deal with the controversy over Wisdom's Feast

30:10

before that or did the book become

30:13

more controversial after that?

30:16

Do you see the question I'm asking?

30:19

-

Sure, I think, well, if the timeline's correct,

30:20

I'm relying some on this book,

30:23

When in Ritual a Power that wrote about it.

30:24

They claim that the formal charge of heresy

30:26

came in January of '93,

30:29

and some of this had happened earlier, but you know.

30:32

-

Okay, I don't remember because you know,

30:36

that all kind of runs together.

30:39

-

Of course, it would, yeah.

30:41

-

Yeah, but I did not expect a reaction

30:42

and believe me, it was strong,

30:45

and I had to make opening statements at annual conferences

30:48

talking about the diversity of the church,

30:53

and my experiences in the mission field

30:55

and the youth program at the church in Brazil,

30:57

and how I learned the diversity of different cultures,

31:00

and ways of saying things.

31:02

I mean, i remember especially having crafting

31:04

opening statements because going into the annual conferences

31:07

there was such a feeling level about it.

31:12

Now, not everyone, but a strong group,

31:16

especially in Peninsula Delaware

31:20

and Eastern Pennsylvania conferences.

31:22

-

So, you went to several annual

31:24

conferences and talked about it?

31:25

Did I understand that correctly?

31:27

-

Well no, I serve two annual conferences.

31:28

When I first was assigned, I had the Philadelphia area,

31:33

which included eastern Pennsylvania and Puerto Rico,

31:39

and then Puerto Rico started a journey towards

31:42

independence, autonomy, and so then I was assigned,

31:44

along with eastern Pennsylvania, Peninsula Delaware.

31:48

During that period of time, at annual conference times,

31:53

the tension was such that I remember having

31:57

to literally work at preparing an opening statement

32:01

right at the beginning of the annual conference,

32:06

and it did, I think it calmed things down somewhat.

32:10

But there still was a lot of feelings,

32:14

and there still were the Good News groups

32:17

who gathered and all that kind of thing.

32:20

-

Well, I'm curious, do you know,

32:23

that's really interesting to me,

32:24

do you know if other annual conferences

32:25

were doing something similar

32:27

where the Bishops were talking about Re-Imagining?

32:29

-

I doubt it because no other bishop went.

32:32

I was the only bishop there.

32:36

-

Okay.

32:38

-

I think of any tradition,

32:39

I think I was the only bishop there,

32:41

Now, they have said something because I got them to sign--

32:43

-

Time of Hope.

32:50

-

The press conference, yes.

32:51

Because of that some of them may have done.

32:52

I doubt it because it wasn't as big an issue for them.

32:54

-

Right.

32:58

-

To be honest with you,

33:02

I think it focused in on the women

33:03

and United Methodist women leadership,

33:07

but it really focused in on me and the Methodist Church.

33:09

I was one of the two or three

33:12

that really were targeted strongly,

33:15

and partly we have strong conservative group

33:17

within our tradition, the whole good news confession women,

33:20

and they were very active anyways

33:24

during that period on other issues,

33:28

and so it really became a rally cry for them.

33:30

I mean I think they felt upset about it.

33:33

I want to honor that upsetness from their prospective,

33:36

but it also became something to rally the troops around.

33:40

-

When you say you were targeted, Susan,

33:45

what happened, how were they targeting you?

33:47

-

I just mean that when I did things or said things,

33:50

it would make their press.

33:59

For instance, if you go on,

34:04

the other day, no, a while back,

34:06

a friend was here and we said, let's just Google your name,

34:08

and I Googled my name, and if you Google my name,

34:10

in there are articles written by people

34:13

about my controversial statements.

34:16

That's what's in my Google.

34:19

I mean that crazy over all

34:20

the other things I do and have done.

34:22

-

Yes.

34:24

-

But that's still there.

34:25

And I'm targeted because of the number of letters I got.

34:29

I had a person in Nashville.

34:33

I can't remember who he was now.

34:38

He wanted to communicate,

34:41

and that part was paying attention to the real

34:42

right-wing groups that were out there

34:45

that were attacking the religious establishment,

34:48

and I remember once,

34:50

this is when I was in the Albany area,

34:51

he called my office and said,

34:53

"Just be careful, Susan, just be careful,"

34:54

and that's about all he said.

34:57

Kept us in the house, you know.

35:00

-

What did you understand that to mean?

35:02

-

I don't know.

35:05

I remember my secretary got the call and she said,

35:06

anyways, I don't want to say anything more,

35:11

making him more dramatic than that

35:14

because it's sort of a past memory,

35:16

but I remember that,

35:17

and I also remember a very well known leader

35:19

in eastern Pennsylvania called my office and said,

35:21

there's some really nastiness out there on you, Susan,

35:26

no, he didn't call me Susan, Bishop.

35:30

He said I just want to warn you about that.

35:31

As well as just the letters I got.

35:35

My name was in the articles,

35:40

as someone who's defended Re-Imagining.

35:42

-

Right, yep.

35:44

-

Or The Book of Worship or whatever.

35:46

The Book of Worship wasn't as controversial,

35:47

but it was another piece of the puzzle for it.

35:50

-

Exactly, how do you account for,

35:53

I mean, you've already given a lot of background,

35:57

which is extremely helpful,

35:59

but how do you account for this backlash

36:00

against Re-Imagining, against the conference?

36:03

-

I really think it was the changing culture

36:08

in the churches, in the church,

36:11

and the growth of women and people of color.

36:13

I go back to that as what I think is happening

36:17

in the political scene today.

36:22

I mean, there's some parallels.

36:24

You have, a person of color is our President.

36:28

You have the growing immigration

36:30

and the diversity of our culture in America,

36:32

and that's creating a backlash,

36:36

and I think that was happening in the church

36:37

because it was a time when more and more

36:40

clergywomen were coming in,

36:43

and in boards of the different groups in the church,

36:47

more church societal ministries,

36:54

they were beginning to have,

36:57

a certain amount had to be people of color,

36:59

a certain amount had to be women,

37:01

all of those things were subtly changing.

37:03

The power structure and an understanding

37:07

of what it meant to into the church

37:13

and to do things and to be affirmed

37:15

and to move forward and all that kind of thing,

37:17

and I'm not sure all of it was conscious,

37:20

but I think it was clearly there, and I go back to that.

37:22

-

Mm-hm, yeah, I wanted to talk about,

37:25

I know one of the reactions you had to it

37:30

was the statement, A Time of Hope, A Time of Threat,

37:32

which is really important and interesting.

37:35

You're one of nine authors,

37:37

so, just, and I know it's been a long time,

37:39

so we don't need all the details if you don't have them,

37:41

but I know a group of you met in February of '94,

37:43

and drafted this statement,

37:47

and I'm wondering just what memories you have

37:48

of that process, and what that was like to do that.

37:50

-

I don't remember the process of drafting it.

37:59

I remember, I think it was Jean Audrey Powers and I talking

38:03

because the backlash was so strong, and we said,

38:06

there needs to be something put out in the press

38:11

that's different than what the press is getting,

38:14

which was all the negative,

38:17

and it was out of that context we said,

38:20

let's see if we can pull together some people

38:22

and have a press conference,

38:27

and so the people in New York up there

38:31

are the ones who pulled the conference, that together.

38:35

I remember calling the women bishop, not all of them,

38:39

'cause all of them wouldn't sign it,

38:42

but some of my colleagues to get them to sign it.

38:43

I remember taking the train up with Ruth Dockerty,

38:47

who at one time was President of the United Methodist Women.

38:51

Wonderful woman, she's still alive, woman.

38:54

Major leader but she was also a member

38:57

of the Eastern Pennsylvania Conference,

39:02

and a clergywomen named Mindy McConnelly,

39:04

who was on the cabinet, and I remember them,

39:06

and there may have been someone else.

39:11

Maybe Ruth's husband Bob came,

39:13

but I do remember Ruth and I do remember Mindy

39:15

taking the train with me to New York for the conference.

39:18

-

Now, what was that like?

39:23

-

It's too long,

39:29

I just remember having it.

39:31

I felt like we had initiated something

39:32

instead of being just passive.

39:38

It didn't feel obnoxious, it felt appropriate.

39:40

And then it felt like it had integrity.

39:45

-

Mm-hm, and how did you feel about

39:47

just reading about it,

39:50

you know, initially you had 800 signatures.

39:51

I believe another, you ended up with like 2,000

39:55

or something, a lot more came in.

39:57

Do you remember being surprised by the reaction

40:00

or is that what you expected?

40:03

-

I don't think I expected.

40:06

I don't think we knew what to expect.

40:07

I think we hoped that it would have more effect,

40:10

but I don't remember more than that.

40:16

-

Sure, what are your memories, if any,

40:18

of the press conference that you held?

40:22

-

The only memory I have is,

40:26

and I'm trying to think of his name now,

40:29

he was the, and it's just because of who he was.

40:31

He was the Time correspondent.

40:33

His name is Jonathan, John.

40:36

He's sometimes on MSNBC or something, or was on.

40:40

I can't think of his last name now,

40:45

but he's broadened his portfolio,

40:46

but he is a well known newspaper person.

40:49

-

Yeah.

40:53

-

And I remember him asking me about my statement,

40:54

when I said, and my quote was something about,

40:59

you needn't talk about God as a rock and a mountain

41:03

if you can't talk about him as a person.

41:06

I can't remember my quote but it was quoted.

41:09

-

Yeah, you can talk about God

41:11

as a mineral, but not as a woman.

41:12

-

Yeah, and I remember him asking me about that

41:14

after the session was over.

41:18

I'm trying to think, it was Jon,

41:21

I think it's J-O-N, I can tell if I saw the name

41:23

and I think you might recognize it,

41:26

but I can't remember it now.

41:27

But I remember thinking he was there,

41:29

so that's what I remember.

41:31

-

Yeah, and he asked you about that quote, yes.

41:35

-

It got a kind of publicity if at least two showed up.

41:37

More than I expected.

41:39

I think that's kind of what the context of that is.

41:41

-

Yeah, yeah, and how about the response

41:43

you or, you know, other people got

41:47

to that conference and that statement?

41:50

-

I don't remember.

41:52

-

Sure, sure.

41:53

One other thing I wanted to ask you about before I forgot

41:56

is there was finally a Bishop's report on Sophia,

41:58

United Methodist's Bishops.

42:02

I don't know if you remember anything about that

42:04

or your reaction to it, does that sound familiar?

42:05

It's been a long time, don't worry.

42:16

-

It's really been a long time.

42:18

When you say that, I do remember,

42:20

I think they asked the Council of Bishops,

42:22

I don't think there was a lot of emphasis

42:29

for Re-Imagining in the council.

42:31

-

Really?

42:33

-

I mean, I'm just saying that.

42:35

So that, I don't think,

42:37

I remember faintly now,

42:43

there was an attempt to do something to calm it down.

42:45

-

Yeah.

42:49

-

But I think it's more to calm things down

42:50

than it was to really deal with

42:53

opening up what that might mean and what was really behind

42:56

why it was, the Re-Imagining was such a good event.

42:59

It was more trying to calm the people down.

43:03

-

Mm-hm.

43:05

-

And I think that's how I felt about it.

43:06

I'm not even sure they asked me to participate in it,

43:08

but I don't have a memory now of that, I don't.

43:11

-

Sure, sure, it has been a long time,

43:16

well, coming on 25 years now.

43:20

So, how would you define Re-Imagining, Susan?

43:22

-

How would I define Re-Imagining?

43:33

It's seeing, it's, again, opening doors and windows

43:35

and letting a heart's spirit move through

43:39

in ways that touch our souls and our spirits.

43:43

I think in some ways I'm a little disappointed

43:49

because to me, nowadays so much has changed so rapidly,

43:53

and so much has become more welcomed or included in.

44:01

On the other hand, I still go to places

44:05

that don't use inclusive language

44:08

or whose imagery is very limited,

44:10

and there's a way in which I feel

44:14

some of the genius of Re-Imagining

44:17

has still never been appropriated.

44:20

-

That's interesting.

44:24

It kind of gets to my later question,

44:25

but I think this is the right time to ask it.

44:26

What do you think still need to be Re-Imagined today?

44:28

What was some of the genius that just has never

44:31

really been passed on or developed?

44:33

-

I think there still is lacking the feminine in the church

44:40

in terms of imagery, style, fresh ways,

44:48

or maybe even moving further beyond that

44:58

to the next, whatever the next is.

45:02

To me it was like a breaking opening

45:04

that got kind of shut down because

45:07

it had such the terrible backlash,

45:10

and one of the good and bad things about today

45:13

there's so much more acceptance for women,

45:19

talking about women in ministry,

45:24

and it's not the same, and it's wonderful.

45:25

On the other hand, I don't,

45:28

like, there's going to be a gathering of clergywomen

45:31

right now in New Orleans or something,

45:33

and I doubt many will go just because they don't think

45:35

they need it or it's going an experience that's necessary

45:39

for their own journeys or their own ministries,

45:43

and it's not like you want to create your experience

45:47

for another generation 'cause they have

45:51

their own experiences, that's true,

45:52

but there is something about the solidarity

45:55

and the visioning and the creativity

45:58

that I think has still been lost or never been claimed,

46:01

and I'm sad about that because I think they're missing out.

46:05

But you know, that may be out of my story,

46:10

and they have to write their own.

46:13

-

Yeah.

46:15

-

I don't know if that makes sense.

46:16

-

Oh, it does, it does, well, especially

46:17

when I think about what you talked about,

46:20

how important those clergywomen gatherings were for you

46:21

and creative they were, and everything.

46:24

-

It was exhilarating, like we'd look at one another,

46:27

and it's not that we were happy where we weren't

46:32

or what we were doing, but it was not easy,

46:34

and we'd look at one another and say,

46:36

okay, we can get through another couple weeks.

46:38

When are we gathering again?

46:40

And it's not like you dragged yourself in for it

46:42

because everything was so miserable in what you were doing.

46:45

That wasn't what was happening,

46:47

but it made such a difference.

46:49

It had dimensions to it

46:52

that you didn't experience any other way.

46:55

-

Mm-hm, well, Susan, as you look back on it,

46:58

what aspects of Re-Imagining were

47:03

most significant to you and why?

47:04

-

Always the worship experiences, the liturgies,

47:15

and the music, and then the words that we used in that.

47:19

That's as much as I can remember.

47:25

I forgot to ask, did you go

47:28

to any conferences after the '93 one?

47:30

-

No.

47:32

-

Okay, yeah.

47:33

Did your involvement in Re-Imagining change

47:36

your prospective of feminist theology or the church?

47:39

-

It was such a high for me that i think i encouraged

47:55

and supported any time there were other gatherings,

48:06

not Re-Imagining, but especially at clergywomen events

48:10

or clergywomen retreats as a time for people to gather,

48:14

and then encouraging them who were planning events

48:18

to really look at creative ways

48:22

to do, especially worship and liturgy.

48:25

-

MM-hm, great.

48:28

Can you think of specific contributions

48:34

that Re-Imagining made to theology or liturgy?

48:36

-

That I can't really say because,

48:40

that I can't really say.

48:46

I mean I do know that I kept the written materials

48:48

that we had that came out of the books and stuff

48:52

and used those myself in things that I planned.

48:55

But other than that I can't say.

48:59

Heather could probably say more of that

49:02

with the liturgy and worship books she's thought of.

49:04

-

Oh yeah, that's a good idea.

49:06

I'll definitely do that.

49:08

There also was, by the way, around that,

49:09

It became controversial.

49:11

and you'll get that with Heather is,

49:14

Susan, and I'm sure Susan mentioned it,

49:15

I think it was Susan who did a communion at --

49:18

-

At Drew.

49:20

-

At Drew and Oden really reacted strongly to it,

49:21

and put Heather under a lot of pressure out of that,

49:28

and I got some of that, too.

49:34

-

Oh, you did get some of that, in what way?

49:36

-

Because she was from my area,

49:38

and Tom Oden just put that all together with Re-Imagining,

49:43

so Heather took most of the blunt on that,

49:46

but just to say that that happened.

49:51

It just kind of reinforced, again,

49:55

the image that was already getting developed

49:57

about these radical feminists who were heretics,

49:59

who were out to change the church, so to speak.

50:05

-

Yeah, yeah, I hope this isn't redundant,

50:09

but I'll ask it just to see if it provokes anything else.

50:14

What do you think is the greatest legacy of Re-Imagining?

50:17

-

Well, this is strong and it may be now

50:31

I'm out of the, retired.

50:33

I don't know if it has,

50:37

if it has a legacy, it would be from my perspective

50:42

in the women's feminist liturgy

50:47

and preaching group across the traditions.

50:52

I know they meet every January.

50:56

I have a good friend who goes to it

50:58

who's at Claremont now, teaches at Claremont,

50:59

and the reason I say that is,

51:03

I think if you did a survey today of clergy, male, female,

51:05

none of them are going to know what Re-Imagining is.

51:10

-

Yeah, yeah.

51:13

-

And in many ways I'm sad for that,

51:14

not for the controversy, but because what was

51:19

done in those experiences was so rich,

51:26

and I think they were gifts to be given to the church.

51:28

I'm not sure how well they were picked up by the church.

51:32

Let's put it that way.

51:36

-

Yeah, yeah.

51:37

-

Which brings me kind of to my last question,

51:39

which is a very specific one.

51:41

The Re-Imagining community has reincorporated,

51:44

mostly to preserve the history so it doesn't get lost,

51:46

but also developing a website,

51:50

and we want to both archive information,

51:53

for example, we digitizing all the conferences, so that all

51:56

the rituals and the speeches are all available online,

52:00

but we'd also like to add resources to it

52:03

that people could use, other resources,

52:05

and I'm just wondering, we're just looking

52:07

for any suggestions people have about content

52:09

that would be helpful on the website,

52:12

and/or who would benefit from it,

52:14

how to get the information,

52:17

just any suggestions you have about a website.

52:18

-

Well, I only can say what I hear out there

52:27

from people who are teaching in seminary,

52:32

especially some of the women.

52:36

They find, the women coming through now probably don't

52:40

see the need for that or the value in that.

52:48

It could be because some of the kind of imagery

52:58

even used in Re-Imagining has been incorporated

53:01

in the kinds of liturgies they can

53:04

find in resources online now.

53:06

Everything's online.

53:08

But my sense is they're a little bit clueless about it,

53:10

and if you all can figure out a way

53:15

to peak their curiosity a little bit, that would be great

53:21

because there's no question it's rich.

53:26

The question is getting the people to be interested enough.

53:29

-

Right, right, yeah, oh, go ahead.

53:35

-

No, that's it.

53:41

-

Okay, well this has been an incredibly

53:42

rich and helpful conversation.

53:45

Before we end, I just want to give you an opportunity,

53:47

is there anything that we haven't discussed

53:50

that you would really like to add?

53:52

-

I think I would just reiterate what I said.

54:00

From my own experience,

54:04

parts of my journey were not easy.

54:06

On the other hand, it was a privilege to serve the church.

54:09

It was privilege for the gift of opportunities that I had,

54:13

and so much more of it is positive than,

54:17

you know, again, you take nothing for the journey,

54:23

and so, you know, it was an exhilarating time.

54:27

During that period, I remember one day

54:30

just curling up on my couch.

54:33

I was in a fetal position.

54:35

I was just worn out from some of the attacks,

54:36

and that may be how I deal with things.

54:39

Probably it's just how individuals deal with them.

54:41

On the other hand, it passed, so to speak,

54:44

and so, it's been such a privilege

54:48

to have been called to ministry is what I would say,

54:52

such a privilege and in the Methodist Church.

54:54

-

Well, actually, I wasn't going to ask this,

54:58

but I can't resist asking since you said that.

54:59

And that was just a gracious and wonderful statement.

55:01

You mention when you Google your name,

55:04

a lot of these things come up.

55:06

Do you feel a little bit as if too much of the what's

55:07

remembered or will be remembered is about controversy?

55:11

-

Well, I think all of this, well none of this

55:17

will be remembered in that sense.

55:19

I was reading in the, where was I reading it?

55:23

Oh, in Vanity Fair, there was an article about

55:26

as the Boomers get old, what are they concerned about?

55:28

And one of the things is when you get old,

55:33

you being concerned about how you're remembered,

55:35

and the line was, "folks, you probably won't be.

55:38

(both laugh)

55:42

So, there's a sense, I think I was with a little chagrined

55:44

to find that there only in that I now live in a community

55:49

and there's a lot of activities here.

55:54

That part.

55:58

-

Susan? Susan?

56:01

Susan? Susan?

56:06

(call disconnects)

56:17

(phone rings)

56:27

-

Hello.

56:45

-

Hi, Susan, somehow we got cut off.

56:47

-

Well, it could be my, well, if my phone

56:50

ran out of juice, I don't know.

56:52

I just grabbed another phone.

56:54

-

Oh great.

56:55

-

Any case.

56:57

-

We were almost done.

56:58

The part where it cut off is when you were saying,

57:00

you are now in a community where

57:01

-

Oh, just saying how they'll say,

57:03

oh, we're going to Google you,

57:06

and I'm thinking, oh, that's what they're going to find.

57:08

(both laugh)

57:10

But actually, as time goes on, less is there to Google

57:13

because we move on to other people,

57:17

which is what it's all about.

57:18

-

Yes, yes.

57:20

Well thank you, I'm going to end the recording now.

57:22

-

Okay.

57:25

Morrison, Susan

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