Morrison, Melanie S. / Re-Imagining Collection / Duke Digital Repository

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Melanie, thank you so much for agreeing to be interviewed.

0:01

And, I wondered if I could start with

0:05

some background material.

0:06

First of all if you could say and spell your name.

0:08

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Yes, Melanie M-e-l

0:12

a-n-I-e.

0:16

My middle initial is S, Schulten.

0:19

And my last name Morrison,

0:24

m-o-r-r-i-s-o-n.

0:28

And, I'd appreciate your including my middle initial

0:32

because there are other Melanie Morrisons,

0:37

I have learned.

0:40

One in particular who does work, not unlike mine,

0:41

and we've been confused for each other.

0:45

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Well, that's very helpful to know, thank you.

0:48

We will definitely do that.

0:50

Now, Melanie are you lay or clergy.

0:53

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I am clergy in the United Church of Christ.

0:56

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Great, and Melanie when and where were you born?

1:00

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Chicago, Illinois April third, 1949.

1:05

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Great, and where did you go to school,

1:10

graduate or divinity school?

1:12

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I got a bachelor in arts from Beloit College.

1:15

A master of divinity from Yale Divinity School.

1:21

And, a PhD from the University of Groningen,

1:25

G-r-o-n-I-n-g-e-n

1:31

in the Netherlands.

1:36

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And thank you for spelling that.

1:38

What work or ministry were you doing at the time

1:41

of Re-Imagining, Melanie?

1:43

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I was, in 1993,

1:47

I had just left

1:52

part time ministry.

1:56

I was a founder, a co-founder,

1:58

co-pastor of a new church start in Kalamazoo, Michigan

2:02

that began in 1988.

2:08

I worked in that ministry for five years, had left earlier

2:10

in 1993, but the church was

2:15

Phoenix Community Church.

2:20

It later became a part of the United Church of Christ.

2:23

And, Phoenix Community Church was a new church

2:28

started in 1988 because of,

2:32

there were some of us here in Michigan

2:36

who were feeling the time had come to launch

2:42

a new congregation that was particularly, explicitly

2:47

welcoming of lesbian, gay, bisexual,

2:53

and transgendered people.

2:56

So, it began in Kalamazoo, Michigan.

2:58

It was actually the very first local congregation

3:00

in southwest Michigan that was explicitly,

3:05

Christian congregation, that was explicitly welcoming

3:08

of LGBT people.

3:11

I left that part time ministry

3:14

because I wanted to work full time with another

3:19

non-parish ministry that I had begun with

3:23

my colleague and mother,

3:28

Eleanor Morrison in 1987.

3:31

And, that was a small non-profit called Leaven,

3:36

like leaven like yeast.

3:41

Like the stuff that makes bread rise.

3:43

Leaven, its initial mission

3:48

was to provide education,

3:54

training, and resources in the areas of

3:57

spiritual development, feminism, and sexual justice.

4:01

I worked with my mother who was also ordained

4:09

in the United Church of Christ, and a sexuality educator.

4:13

Had worked at Michigan State University for a number

4:19

of years in sexuality education,

4:21

and an author of several books about teaching

4:26

human sexuality at the university level.

4:30

We started Leaven,

4:33

as I said, in 1987 and we worked together for 17 years.

4:40

And, Leaven is no longer in existence, but was a vibrant,

4:47

vital organization for almost 30 years.

4:53

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That is impressive, and working with your mother,

4:58

go ahead.

5:02

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Yeah, excuse me.

It was about 25 years that Leaven was in existence.

5:03

Out of Leaven

5:07

we began in 1995 the Leaven Center

5:12

in mid Michigan located between Lancing

5:18

and Grand Rapids, Michigan.

5:22

It was a retreat and study center.

5:25

And, the Leaven Center

5:31

we did that ministry,

5:35

I and my partner, April Allison,

5:37

and the Leaven Board, and with my colleague

5:42

and mother Eleanor Morrison.

5:46

We launched the Leaven Center, which was in existence

5:48

oh goodness, for about, all together,

5:53

about 17 years.

5:58

Unfortunately, it too is no longer in existence.

5:59

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Did Allies for Change come directly

6:04

after that, your current?

6:07

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Yeah, so after I left as director of the Leaven Center

6:09

at the end of 2007

6:17

because I wanted to return to full time

6:23

facilitation of groups.

6:28

And, I also wanted to return to writing.

6:32

The work at the Leaven Center was extraordinarily

6:37

meaningful and important work.

6:42

It was also very exhausting and never ending work

6:46

as the administrator of that retreat center

6:52

in trying to keep it afloat.

6:56

And so, I wanted to return, again,

6:58

to the kinds of work that actually my mother

7:03

and I were doing together which was group facilitation

7:07

and educational events.

7:10

And, I particularly wanted to focus on what is really

7:13

my deepest calling and passion and that is

7:18

racial justice education.

7:23

So, I left the Leaven Center to launch Allies for Change

7:25

which is a network of social justice educators

7:31

or we sometimes call ourselves anti-oppression educators.

7:37

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That is, oh go ahead.

7:44

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Allies for Change has been in existence since 2008.

7:45

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Thank you so much.

7:51

And Melanie, do you recall how and when you first

7:53

became aware of feminist theology?

7:56

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Oh goodness.

8:02

Well, I remember when Rosemary Radford Ruether

8:08

published I think it was The Radical Kingdom,

8:12

one of her first books.

8:16

And, I was senior in college at the time.

8:17

And, I remember reading it and

8:21

being just, (laughs)

8:24

it was so important to me.

8:28

I think I really returned with greater fervor

8:36

to feminist theology than in seminary

8:41

which was in the late 70s.

8:49

After I left college I went to live for three

8:51

and a half years at Koinonia Farm in southwest Georgia.

8:54

And, with someone who went to seminary out

9:02

of that experience.

9:03

And, became very involved in

9:05

wanting to at first, I was studying

9:11

Greek and Hebrew so that I could do exegesis

9:16

and re-imagining texts.

9:20

I took courses, I was also enrolled for a while, in Boston.

9:25

I took course with Phyllis Trible,

9:31

the Texts of Terror and so forth.

9:35

And then, at Yale Divinity school, also, was studying

9:38

feminist theology and that was in the late 70s.

9:42

So, I think that's when it was really speaking to me,

9:44

beginning to really speak deeply to me,

9:47

and become a framework for

9:50

my own preaching and my own sense of,

9:55

the theological limbs I was bringing to world.

10:02

I will add that

10:05

both feminist theology and lesbian feminist theology

10:08

became very important to me as well as womanist theology

10:13

being created by scholars like Deloris Williams,

10:19

also very important to me.

10:25

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Thank you, that's very helpful.

10:28

If we could move to the Re-Imagining community,

10:30

or to Re-Imagining conference could you talk about,

10:32

I know you were involved, attended and were involved

10:36

in the 1993 conference.

10:39

Can you start with what led you to your initial

10:41

involvement in the conference?

10:45

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Yes, I can't recall exactly how we heard about it.

10:49

That was at the time, with my mother

10:54

Eleanor Morrison, we were co-directors of Leaven.

10:59

And, we were offering eight month seminars for women

11:05

entitled In Our Own Voice, Women Reshaping

11:11

Theology and Spirituality.

11:16

So, we were doing feminist and womanist theology

11:18

in a grassroots kind of way.

11:23

Bringing women together from around Michigan

11:26

for these gatherings, this seminar.

11:31

And, several of us from that seminar so I'm remembering

11:37

accurately decided we didn't necessarily travel together,

11:41

but thought let's go to this Re-Imagining conference.

11:45

Because, it sounds very much like this will feed

11:49

the work we're doing here in Michigan as women

11:53

re-imagining theology and spirituality.

11:58

So, that's what, at the same time, I wanted to mention

12:02

this too, my mother and I had been,

12:06

were co-authoring a 10 session

12:09

human sexuality curriculum

12:15

for the United Church of Christ called

12:17

Created in God's Image.

12:20

And, it just, it felt to us, both the seminars

12:23

we were offering through Leaven and this work on

12:27

Created In God's Image that attending Re-Imagining

12:30

with the announced speakers that were going to be there

12:35

it just felt like something we couldn't miss,

12:39

we simply couldn't miss.

12:43

I wanna say, parenthetically, that

12:46

in the aftermath of Re-Imagining when we

12:51

saw statements like the statement from

12:57

retired presiding United Methodist Bishop Earl Hunt

13:01

who, parenthetically, was a friend and colleague of my

13:07

mother's father, who was a district intendant.

13:11

Now, he was no longer alive at the time of Re-Imagining,

13:16

but they were friends and colleagues.

13:18

He's Earl Hunt, so my mother knew Earl Hunt

13:21

when she was growing up.

13:24

Anyway, when we saw that he had said,

13:25

in great distress about Re-Imagining,

13:31

"No comparable heresy has appeared

13:33

"in the church in the last 15 centuries."

13:37

My mother and I had to laugh a bit and say,

13:41

"Oh, my goodness aren't you glad that we attended one of

13:45

"the most significant events in the last 15 centuries

13:47

"of the Christian church?"

13:50

(laughs)

13:52

Now, we took that and we registered for this.

13:55

And surely, also when we were present,

13:57

even though our analysis was not the same as Bishop Hunt's

14:02

we knew we were attending something that

14:08

was profoundly significant.

14:12

So, so glad that we were there.

14:13

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That is wonderful.

14:17

Now, I know it's been almost 25 years now,

14:19

but I would love to hear about your memories of the event.

14:22

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Well thank you, yeah.

14:28

Okay, these are some of the things that really

14:31

stand out for me.

14:33

As someone who has helped to plan conferences

14:38

and who has attended many, many

14:43

conferences through the years

14:48

I was in awe of the planning and orchestration

14:51

of the Re-Imagining Conference.

14:57

I don't know how long that planning committee

15:00

worked together before launching Re-Imagining

15:02

but I thought it was impeccably planned and orchestrated.

15:07

When I think about things like this, this is things

15:12

that I remember that we sat

15:15

at tables that were purposely,

15:20

the location of our table group

15:25

was intentionally moved to different locations each day.

15:29

And, I remember having searched for

15:35

our folks, our table.

15:39

It was the intentionality in that was so that none of us

15:42

of the participants, and it had gotten into 2200 of us

15:51

who were present, that none of us would only be

15:54

on the margins

15:57

in those plenary gatherings.

16:01

So, that we would move closer to the central stage

16:04

and podium, at times we would,

16:08

we were moved back at other times.

16:10

I just thought that alone was brilliant

16:12

in terms of equalizing the experience for everyone.

16:19

I also saw the transparent, light weight

16:25

podium that the speakers spoke from.

16:30

I remember the speakers picking it up and moving it

16:38

during their speeches.

16:43

This is, again, when we were all together

16:45

in plenary sessions.

16:47

So that, during the course of their speech they

16:49

could be facing every part of the room

16:53

at some point.

16:57

Once again, so that some people, because that was

17:00

in the center of the room, so that it wouldn't be

17:03

the case that some people would always be seeing

17:07

the back of the speakers.

17:09

I vividly remember early on

17:13

that a blessing was sung for a speaker

17:19

and then for each successive speaker we sang,

17:25

"Bless Sophia," as a way

17:28

all of us of commissioning and blessing each speaker

17:33

which I thought was beautiful.

17:36

I remember the artists working on large banners

17:40

while speakers were talking in the plenary sessions.

17:46

I remember art materials at the tables and

17:51

a paper table cloth so that we could draw and do things

17:55

with our hands while presentations were happening.

17:59

And, how that was also a gift to people who need to do that

18:03

to be able to concentrate better.

18:09

I remember there being no announcements from the podium

18:13

from the stage.

18:18

I don't quite remember whether we got the announcements

18:20

like they were posted or were given to us in printed form.

18:22

I'm not quite remembering that, but I distinctly,

18:28

and I have reason to remember this also, for purposes

18:30

of the negotiations later with the planning committee.

18:33

But, that meaning that

18:37

we went we moved from

18:41

height to height to height.

18:45

I mean, we moved from one stunning speaker

18:47

right into the next stunning speaker.

18:50

I mean, there was singing.

18:52

There was liturgy.

18:55

It wasn't just speeches.

18:57

And, it was very multi-media.

19:00

But, it wasn't interrupted by that more kind of

19:03

logistical announcement kind of thing,

19:06

which I also thought was really, really helpful

19:09

and moved things along.

19:13

I remember that it was a spectacular

19:18

and beautifully diverse group of

19:23

presenters and presentations.

19:26

Those in the plenary sessions and in the four main

19:29

groups sessions, I don't remember what they were called,

19:33

where we would go into, like 500 of us would choose

19:37

like Re-Imagining Jesus.

19:43

I know that was the one I attended with Deloreds Williams,

19:46

Barbara Lundblad so forth and speakers.

19:49

I think it was when we got into, broke into those

19:53

smaller constellations I knew there were very

19:58

hard choices because I wanted to hear every single speaker

20:02

at that conference.

20:06

And, I would say, just for me personally two of

20:10

the presentations that

20:15

were most stirring and stand out

20:20

for me to this day I will never forget.

20:23

Delores Williams, Womanist Re-Imagining of Atonement.

20:26

I felt, sitting there, that I was,

20:32

it was what the Quakers would call a covered meeting.

20:37

The presence of the spirit it was

20:43

both content and process, her passion in delivering it.

20:49

And, just the gift of being there I will never forget.

20:54

And, a similar sense when

20:59

Rita Nakashima Brock gave her plenary address, I believe

21:03

it was on Re-Imaging God.

21:08

My mother and I then, subsequently, have used

21:15

those texts and tapes for years

21:18

in our Leaven seminars, in our own voice seminars.

21:23

We took those back to

21:28

Michigan and have listened to them over and over.

21:33

Not just those, but those are two that

21:39

really stand out for me.

21:41

So, those are some of the things I most remember.

21:42

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Melanie, you remembered quite a bit, actually.

21:47

That was great.

21:50

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Of course, it was also as is the case

21:53

with these kinds of events, it was also an

21:57

event was reunion time with friends

22:00

from other parts of the country that I hadn't seen.

22:03

It was just so happy to be there in Minneapolis

22:11

with people that I loved and missed.

22:13

So, that was also another aspect, of course.

22:17

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Of course, now I know two ways, important ways

22:20

you were involved were the workshop.

22:23

So, I wanna hear about that.

22:25

And also, about the unofficial statement that was made.

22:26

And, I wanna hear about both of those.

22:31

Should we start with the workshop?

22:32

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Sure, yes.

22:35

So, there were these, what did they call them?

22:39

Multi-format options or something.

22:44

I mean, everything was re-imagined at Re-Imagining,

22:49

including, I don't think they used the word workshop.

22:52

But, it was essentially a workshop.

22:56

Yeah, it was multi-format option group.

22:59

(laughs)

23:01

And the title of that group that

23:04

I led co-led with four others,

23:08

I'll name them in just a moment,

23:13

was Listening With Our Hearts:

23:14

Prophetic Voices of Lesbians in the Church.

23:19

And, I co-led that with Diane Christopherson,

23:25

CathyAnn Beaty, Jeanine Spahr,

23:32

and Nadean Bishop.

23:36

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I am sorry to interrupt, would you mind spelling

23:39

the last names of, I know Nadean Bishop,

23:41

and Spahr--

23:47

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Of the other presenters?

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Yes.

23:49

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Okay,

Christofferson is c-h-r-i

23:50

s-t-o-p-h-er-s-o-n.

23:55

CathyAnn, let me just spell that, too.

24:02

It's spelled C-a-t-h-y and then

24:04

capital A-n-n but all one word.

24:10

CathyAnn Beaty, B-e-a-t-y.

24:15

Jeanie Spar, S-p-a-h-r.

24:20

And Nadine, N-a-d-e-a-n

24:26

Bishop B-i-s-h-o-p.

24:30

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Thank you.

24:34

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Sure.

And, that group workshop

24:37

was held on Friday, November fifth

24:42

from 3:45 to 5:15.

24:45

And, we shared,

24:51

each of us, shared how we experienced

24:56

lesbian women re-imagining

25:02

theology and Christology, and so many different things.

25:07

What the gists were, the theological re-imagining

25:12

that lesbians were bringing as gifts to church.

25:17

I recovered, I don't have the notes of what my

25:26

co-presenters said that day.

25:30

But, I did find just some scribbled notes

25:35

of what I talked about.

25:39

I'm not going to give you my whole spiel,

25:41

these are just scribbled notes

25:45

But, I talked about

25:46

my experience, because I'd just come

25:52

from five years of pastoring a church

25:55

that was about 90% lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender.

26:00

Only about 10% of people identified as heterosexual.

26:06

And, so I shared some of my experience at

26:10

Phoenix Community Church.

26:13

But, I particularly was talking about

26:14

some of the unique ways, as lesbians, how we come

26:19

to sacred writings, including scripture.

26:27

And, how we listen, what we hear because of the

26:33

experience we bring, where we find

26:38

holy writs, holy words.

26:43

And, I'll just say, in terms of the where

26:53

this is something I don't know, I know,

26:58

I don't know that there was some spies at the workshop.

27:01

We learned afterwards that there some people

27:04

who had come with the intent of them getting

27:07

the word out before the planners

27:10

of Re-Imagining could get out intp the world

27:15

what had happened there.

27:19

People who'd come to really sabotage, I mean,

27:21

in terms of their later publicity about what had happened.

27:26

And so, I don't know whether there were people

27:30

in that very workshop, I think there may have been,

27:31

who were taking notes.

27:36

And, some things that I said, I'm not saying,

27:38

I'm not attributing it only to me, because there were other

27:43

people who were saying similar things, but it felt like

27:46

maybe some of us got into

27:48

the furor that resulted.

27:52

Because, I said things like in terms of

27:55

the where do we find sacred texts.

27:59

I said that we as lesbians know, by experience,

28:03

that the canon is not closed.

28:07

That it cannot be closed because we know

28:11

we would be bereft

28:14

if there were only, the only writings

28:22

we considered sacred and holy were those in what

28:26

has been canonized as The Bible

28:31

we know we would be bereft if that were true.

28:37

And, because we have encountered wisdom

28:40

and sacred writing elsewhere.

28:44

That The Bible, for us, as Christian lesbians

28:47

is indeed the central source, but it is not enough.

28:49

Because, it alone cannot bring us into right relationship

28:53

with the Earth.

28:58

It cannot bring us into right relationship

29:01

with our sexual embodied selves

29:04

as lesbians, that we need, we need the writings

29:10

of Adrienne Rich, and Audrey Lorde,

29:15

and Carter Heyward, and (mumbles)

29:17

and so forth.

29:18

To place alongside

29:23

Ephesians and Corinthians and the Gospels and so forth.

29:28

And that at Phoenix Community Church

29:33

that we would announce that we were reading

29:38

some sacred writings.

29:41

And so we would say, "I read to you from the prophet Isiah."

29:43

And then, we would follow up with, "I read to you

29:48

"from the prophet Audrey Lorde."

29:52

And, after reading both of those texts we'd say,

29:55

"Thanks be to God for this holy word."

29:57

So, that's some of what I talked about.

30:01

(laughs)

30:03

I truly came through all of that.

30:04

Again, this is my memory, that it was at that workshop

30:09

I have in scribbled notes that I asked

30:15

and I don't know that I was the

30:19

I said I am longing for there to be someone

30:22

in our plenary sessions who speaks in a lesbian voice,

30:27

who brings some of this perspective.

30:33

We were happy and grateful that there were workshops

30:35

where lesbians were speaking

30:40

in our own voices.

30:46

But, when it came to all of us being together

30:48

in the plenary sessions I think we knew, because we knew,

30:52

personally knew some of the plenary speakers that

30:58

there were lesbian women speaking in the plenary sessions,

31:01

but thus far in the first two days of the conference,

31:07

so this workshop we have Listening to our Hearts,

31:12

Prophetic Voices of Lesbians in the Church,

31:18

that took place Friday afternoon.

31:20

So, there had been two days now of speakers,

31:22

thus far in those first two days of the conference,

31:26

when we were all gathered together none of the plenary

31:29

speakers was speaking openly in a lesbian voice,

31:34

or perhaps just as significantly none of the speakers

31:38

thus far had called that entire gathered community

31:42

to ask what it's mean to stand in solidarity

31:47

with lesbian, bi, and transwomen.

31:53

And, so my memory is that is was out of that workshop

31:57

when that question was kind of raised, the longing

32:02

that that would happen, that some of us stayed

32:05

after the workshop and began scheming about

32:08

(laughs)

32:13

how we're gonna find out whether it's gonna happen or

32:19

it's just not okay given the fact that here you had

32:24

at this Re-Imagining conference

32:29

people gathered from just about every

32:35

conceivable Christian denomination.

32:37

And, that still, in 1993

32:43

most of those Christian denominations

32:48

had disciplines or policies

32:54

that prohibited the ordination

32:59

of openly, of people who are out

33:03

and open about their sexual orientation, about being lesbian

33:09

or gay, or bisexual, or trans.

33:14

And, it just felt to us,

33:17

this was here we are at the end of decade

33:25

in solidarity of women and there's a significant

33:31

part of that

33:39

women, a significant community

33:46

that is marginalized, excluded, oppressed

33:52

still within the church.

33:57

And, there's dead silence in the plenary about that.

33:59

And so, I've now segued, as you can see,

34:05

into your other question about the invitation

34:09

that was offered from the podium.

34:14

Shall I continue talking about that?

34:16

Do you have anything else you wanted to ask?

34:18

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No, no this is wonderful, this is great.

34:20

And, I assume you'll talk about the negotiation

34:22

and then the experience of it, good.

34:25

-

Just, of course, like everything else I've named

34:27

to date, this is my memory.

34:30

I wish, right here, right now, Jeanie Spahr,

34:33

and Celise Berry, and so forth and so on,

34:38

Barry Hahn and others were here sitting with me

34:42

so that collectively we could better recreate

34:45

how this came to past.

34:49

So, this is just my memory.

34:50

And, had my life not been so busy the last weeks

34:55

I might have called some of those folks to check it out.

34:58

But anyway, didn't have the time to do that.

35:00

So, my memory is that

35:04

two or three of us representatives from Clout,

35:10

mow Clout was an organization,

35:15

shall I say just a little bit about?

35:21

-

Yes, please do.

35:22

-

Yeah, so Clout was an organization

35:24

that we began in 1990

35:28

when at the invitation, actually, of Carter Heyward,

35:34

CathyAnn Beaty, and myself

35:40

10 lesbian women gathered in

35:43

Deb Harrison's living room at Union Seminary

35:48

to talk about the fact,

35:54

to talk about the possibility of starting

35:57

a new organization of lesbians

36:01

who would be really,

36:05

who would from the first moment be publicly out

36:09

and that we would be challenging our respective

36:15

denominations to really struggle more with

36:19

policies that forbade the ordination of lesbians,

36:26

of out lesbians, okay.

36:30

And so, how it was started in

36:33

1990, and it's first

36:38

international, we called them global gatherings,

36:43

was in Minneapolis, actually, in 1991.

36:48

Yes, and we called it a Clout of Witnesses.

36:52

(laughs)

36:57

Playing on a Cloud of Witnesses.

36:59

And, oh, I would say

37:02

at least 100 of us were there, maybe more.

37:06

People came from all over the country.

37:10

It was a record breaking snow storm weekend.

37:12

We actually got snowed into the, I think it was

37:17

a congregational church, UCC church where we were meeting,

37:21

but I can't remember that detail.

37:25

And, we had some

37:27

invitations to our,

37:33

to lesbian women who, for us,

37:37

were our foremothers, our elders

37:40

in the movement.

37:46

People who had, in some cases, suffered enormous

37:47

persecution at the hands of the church.

37:52

And, we sent invitations for them to be with us

37:56

or to write to us, send messages.

38:02

And, it was just an incredibly powerful time together

38:07

for that weekend.

38:12

And then, every two years Clout would have

38:15

another international gathering.

38:17

We had a newsletter.

38:20

We took some actions in different places.

38:22

We had regional gatherings.

38:24

And so, we were still a fairly young

38:28

organization when Re-Imagining took place.

38:33

And, it stands for, Clout stands for

38:39

Christian Lesbians Out Together.

38:42

And so, two or three of us approached

38:48

some folks on the representatives of planning committee,

38:54

the Re-Imagining planning committee.

38:58

I believe it was after that workshop.

39:00

So, I think it was Friday afternoon.

39:02

And, we said to them that we would like to have

39:05

five to 10 minutes at most

39:10

in a plenary session to make statements

39:15

from the stage calling on people to wrestle with,

39:18

think about, what it would mean to stand in solidarity

39:24

with lesbian, bisexual, and transwomen in the church.

39:27

And, those representatives, this is my memory,

39:32

were very hesitant about that.

39:39

Expressed great reservations.

39:43

They said, among other things,

39:47

that they were clear that this would cause

39:52

consternation in some of their denominations.

39:56

They also said that they purposely planned

40:00

Re-Imagining, as I mentioned earlier, with no announcements

40:03

from the stage, no spontaneous announcements.

40:06

And, they said, "We've turned down other groups

40:10

"and other people who wanted to make announcements.

40:13

"So, why would we make this exception for you all?"

40:15

Well, we persisted.

40:19

That logistical reason was not sufficient for us.

40:22

(laughs)

40:24

My memory is that those women said, "We need to gather

40:30

"as a whole planning committee and we've really

40:35

"got to ponder this.

40:37

"We can't give you an answer right now."

40:37

Hoping that it was going to take place

40:44

the Clout folks asked me, I was co-coordinator of Clout

40:50

at that time, and they asked me to be the spokesperson

40:55

if it came to pass.

41:01

So, I remember beginning to make notes about

41:03

what I might say.

41:06

Still waiting for the word whether it was going

41:09

to take place.

41:11

I don't recall whether we contemplated

41:13

seizing the stage like if they said no.

41:21

I really don't, I just don't recall and that's one of

41:25

the things I wish there were others gathered here with me

41:27

right now, maybe somebody else would have

41:30

a different memory about that.

41:32

But, it was either very late that night

41:34

or early Saturday morning that a couple of the people

41:39

from the planning committee came to us

41:43

and they said, "Okay, you can have

41:46

"about nine minutes.

41:51

"But, we want it to be very clear that it

41:54

"would be wholly unofficial."

41:59

That they were not sponsoring our statement.

42:04

And that, none of them could introduce us

42:09

or stand on the stage with us.

42:14

And, I remember one of the committee members

42:17

turning to me and saying, "If I were to stand

42:20

"on that stage with you, Melanie, I would lose my job."

42:23

Which I do not minimize that statement.

42:27

I knew, we knew there was a lot at stake here

42:34

but their response, her response and so forth

42:38

only made it clearer to us why we were asking to do

42:41

what we were asking.

42:46

Because, things were that

42:50

oppressive, actually within mainline

42:56

Christandom in 1993 in denominations

42:59

like The Presbyterian Church USA, United Methodist Church,

43:04

and so forth and so on.

43:07

So, what they said was that it seemed best to them

43:09

that I would come to the podium after the last speaker

43:18

on Saturday morning.

43:22

And, that speaker was Mercy Amba Oduyoye,

43:26

am I pronouncing her name right, Sherry?

43:32

-

Yeah, I think that's right, yep, mm-hmm.

43:35

-

And, my memory is that they said they would alert her

43:41

that I would be coming to the microphone.

43:46

But, I and the other Clout members,

43:50

and I feel this to be true also of the planning committee

43:55

people. we were very clear

43:58

we wanted to honor her presentation

44:02

and in no way intrude upon it.

44:07

She was good theologian,

44:12

really one of the foremost, at that time,

44:17

voices of feminist theology coming out of

44:23

an African nation.

44:27

And we, in no way, wanted to intrude upon

44:28

what she was doing.

44:32

So, if I could,

44:35

if this were a visual, a video tape that

44:40

we're doing right now you would see me.

44:45

So, what I did was I was standing with my sisters.

44:48

(clears throat)

44:54

Out by one of the doorways into one of the plenary

44:56

that had a pathway to the center stage.

45:00

And, what we knew was that when the speaker

45:08

was concluding her remarks there would be

45:13

perhaps standing ovation, I mean, there would be applause

45:19

for some time.

45:21

And then, the planning committee told us,

45:23

and then there's a break.

45:26

And, people will be getting into talking circles.

45:28

So, people are going to break and they're going to

45:30

be here to break because I think her name was Lois Wilson

45:31

who was speaking before the speakers.

45:35

So, people had been sitting a long time.

45:37

So, you're gonna have, the planning committee

45:39

goes, "Good luck, because you've gotta capture

45:43

"the attention of the folks there when they're actually

45:47

"ready to break."

45:51

So, and they were not going to be anywhere present,

45:53

the planning committee members.

45:57

Nobody was going to introduce me besides myself.

45:59

I'm going into all this detail because I think

46:06

it's important in terms of

46:08

what we were intending

46:12

in a sense of not wanting to disrupt

46:17

what was happening, but also to bring now

46:20

a needed new or another dimension

46:23

to the gathering.

46:28

So, I had just a split second, really,

46:29

when you get down to it, to get to that microphone.

46:34

She was going to hand it to me, or she was going to step,

46:39

she knew I was coming, the speaker.

46:42

But, so what it meant is that some of lesbian truth is

46:48

I started walking very quickly, I felt like I was running

46:52

down that aisle as the applause was waning.

46:56

And, got up on the stage, got to the podium

47:03

and people were beginning to kind of,

47:06

the applause now had ended.

47:10

I didn't wanna speak before it had ended.

47:11

But, I didn't want there to be a second

47:15

when they're done applauding where 2200 people

47:18

could get (vocalizes) talking to each other.

47:22

I think some of that began to happen,

47:25

but I then

47:27

quickly introduced myself.

47:29

I introduced myself and explained that I work with,

47:37

that I'm a co-coordinator of Clout, an ecumenical movement

47:43

celebrating the miracle of being lesbian,

47:48

out, and Christian.

47:52

Now, I will say that

47:55

there were probably only about 10 people

48:00

in that room that knew I was going to say anything.

48:03

Other Clout members, maybe 10 or 12 or so

48:09

and some members of the planning committee.

48:13

And, the other night I remember that when I said

48:17

those words, and I said them forcefully,

48:22

trying to get people's attention.

48:24

I introduced that I am Melanie Morrison, co-coordinator

48:26

of Clout, Christian Lesbians Out Together,

48:30

an ecumenical movement celebrating the miracle

48:33

of being lesbian, out, and Christian.

48:38

And, I said just that much some spontaneous whooping

48:40

(laughs)

48:45

woo-hoo, and ears went up around the room

48:46

in different places.

48:50

And then, I'm going to go ahead and read what I said.

48:56

I recovered what I said.

48:59

-

Oh good.

-

Not very long.

49:02

And then, I went on to say, "We are keenly,

49:04

"painfully aware that the world is not safe

49:10

"for lesbian women.

49:15

"And, that often the least safe place is the church.

49:17

"We call upon all of you, whatever your sexual orientation

49:23

"not to leave this holy place without wrestling

49:30

"with these questions.

49:34

"What does it mean for us to be in solidarity

49:37

"with lesbian, bisexual, and" I said transsexual

49:41

because that was the language then,

49:47

"transwomen in this decade?

49:49

"And, how can we together re-imagine our churches

49:53

"so that every woman may claim her voice, her gifts,

49:58

"her loves and her wholeness.

50:03

"Acknowledging that my white skin may put me

50:07

"in a place where there is less at stake in coming out

50:11

"I now invite every lesbian, bisexual, and transwoman

50:16

"who is willing and able to come forward

50:22

"and join hands encircling this platform facing out."

50:26

This is my memory of what happened.

50:34

Remembering saying it, I wanna say again, very few people,

50:39

it wasn't that people were prepared for this.

50:44

Very few people in the room knew this was going to happen.

50:48

But, as I looked out over them

50:52

those 2200 people

50:57

it seemed to me, and I think this is hyperbolic,

51:01

that somebody from every table in that room

51:05

stood up and people just started streaming

51:08

towards the podium, the stage.

51:13

And, I had invited people to come

51:19

and circle the stage facing out,

51:24

and I remember they were encircling the stage

51:28

several rows deep and spilling up onto the stage.

51:33

It so far surpassed our expectation of

51:38

who might respond and I saw people that I knew

51:43

who, until that moment, were not out publicly in front of

51:50

their district superintendent who may have

51:54

been sitting there, or their bishop,

51:56

and who knew, I mean they were taking enormous risks.

52:01

But, they women started, and my intention was then

52:07

once the women had come and encircled the stage that

52:15

my intention was to ask those who were willing

52:21

and able to stand, those who wished to stand

52:25

in solidarity with us and were able to do that

52:29

to rise and we would sing together.

52:34

We're gonna keep on moving forward, never turning back,

52:41

never turning back.

52:43

And gosh, I didn't even get to that because

52:45

as the women started streaming forward from all parts

52:49

of the room people were on their feet.

52:54

And, in my memory, I wish I could describe it

52:59

as the roof of the convention center disappeared,

53:02

I mean it went off with the

53:07

the word is pandemonium that broke out.

53:12

I could see tears streaming down the faces

53:16

of people coming forward but also those

53:20

who were at their table.

53:22

I could see people have have their arms in the air.

53:23

They were cheering these women on.

53:26

Now, there may have been some people who remained seated

53:32

who not for disability reasons,

53:37

but I didn't see them.

53:41

As they were coming down I was just saying,

53:44

"yes, yes, yes," into the microphone

53:47

cause I listened later to this

53:51

on the Re-Imagining tapes.

53:53

The whole thing from the clapping was

53:58

just went, it was like thunderous.

54:01

And, then I invited us to sing and my memory,

54:06

is again, overwhelmingly everyone joined in

54:10

to sing we're gonna keep on moving forward,

54:16

never turning back, never turning back.

54:21

We're going to keep on loving boldly.

54:24

We're gonna keep on speaking truthfully.

54:29

We're gonna keep on loving women, never turning back.

54:32

We're gonna work for change together.

54:37

Never turning back, never turning back.

54:40

And, when we finished that song, all of us together,

54:44

again we just, I don't know whether

54:48

those talking circles every happened because

54:53

people were hugging one another.

54:57

And, the people coming to the podium to hug the women

55:00

who had dared to come forward.

55:04

I just remember it went on and on.

55:08

I mean, the cheering and the hugging

55:09

and the tears and the laughter.

55:12

And, it was absolutely

55:14

a sacred time.

55:19

-

How did it feel to be in the midst of all that, Melanie?

55:27

-

Oh, my goodness, I mean I know that

55:30

I just felt carried out of,

55:39

I felt very embodied, but also carried out of,

55:44

I felt we, this is a palpable--

55:50

-

Can I stop one second, I apologize.

55:54

I'm getting another phone call, which is unfortunate.

55:56

I think it's stopped.

55:58

Go ahead, keep talking Melanie, sorry.

55:59

It was a palpable?

56:02

-

I felt this was a palpable foreshadowing

56:04

for all of us present.

56:11

In the words of Doctor King, "The arc of the moral universe

56:15

"bending towards justice."

56:20

We were witnessing something of the kingdom

56:23

here and now on Earth, as it is in Heaven.

56:28

But, we were also witnessing a foreshadowing

56:31

of what was going to happen in our denominations that

56:33

this was too good, too right, too holy,

56:40

not to be lived into.

56:46

That was my feeling.

56:47

I felt so full of hope, that moment,

56:49

that people had expressed that kind of solidarity

56:55

so visibly and audibly.

56:58

And, I know that

57:02

person after person came up to me

57:07

but they were also coming up to

57:09

all the women who had come onto the stage

57:10

and offering, saying, "What can we do?

57:13

"When the fallout comes, how can we be there?"

57:18

So, it was, I remember that time

57:21

when I grow discouraged I did for years afterwards,

57:27

and in the aftermath I remember somebody,

57:32

I was speaking somewhere and I must have been

57:37

telling this story and

57:41

I remember a man in the audience getting up and asking,

57:46

"So Doctor Morrison," I wasn't a doctor yet,

57:52

"Reverend Morrison," whatever I was called,

57:55

"Reverend Morrison, looking back

57:58

"and knowing now what you know now

58:03

"of the furor and the controversy that erupted

58:09

"because of what you did

58:13

"do you regret doing that

58:15

"because it caused such divisions within the church?"

58:20

I remember saying to him, I asked him, "Were you present?

58:28

"Were you present at Re-Imagining?"

58:33

And he said, "No, I wasn't I just heard about it."

58:35

And, I said, "If you had been there chances are

58:37

"you would not be asking me this question.

58:41

"I don't know, you would have yourself

58:44

"experienced something so right

58:50

"and so good that you might not

58:55

"be asking me the questions.

58:57

"But, maybe more to the point sir, no I do not regret

58:59

"issuing that invitation because

59:05

"it was not the source of division within the church.

59:10

"The division long pre-existed that invitation.

59:15

"The division had been caused by centuries of sexism,

59:20

"heterosexism, and other systems

59:26

"of privilege and oppression.

59:28

"So no, my answer is no, I do not regret.

59:29

"I know that some people have suffered enormously

59:37

"in ways that I have not," I said to him.

59:42

"Some people have lost their jobs, some people have lost

59:44

"the chance to be ordained.

59:47

"They've been targeted with inquisitional

59:49

"kinds of gatherings.

59:57

"And as they come up for ordination,

1:00:00

"were you at Re-Imagining and so forth."

1:00:03

I said, "So, I have not suffered as some other

1:00:05

"people have, but I also know it was not

1:00:09

"this invitation anymore that it was Doctor Delores Williams

1:00:11

"Re-Imagining of Atonement that was the problem,

1:00:17

"or that cost people their jobs.

1:00:21

"It was the entrenched, still entrenched sexism

1:00:23

"and heterosexism within the church."

1:00:28

-

Well, you have now, Melanie, brought us very nicely

1:00:36

to the backlash.

1:00:38

From what you said it sounded like there was already

1:00:40

an awareness at Re-Imagining that there was going

1:00:43

to be this kind of backlash.

1:00:46

And that, you were already thinking about how

1:00:48

to respond to it, is that correct?

1:00:50

-

Well yes, certainly the conversations,

1:00:54

well folks who were part of Clout, we called Clout

1:01:01

into being because there were many lesbian women

1:01:06

who could not be ordained, could not be safely out

1:01:10

within the church.

1:01:15

I mean, we knew the kind of possible backlash for people.

1:01:15

And, the planning committee members, their hesitance

1:01:22

about letting us be on the stage, letting me

1:01:26

come to the stage was also signified their fear

1:01:29

already of backlash.

1:01:33

Now, this was but one piece

1:01:36

of the backlash.

1:01:39

My memory of

1:01:43

the backlash or the furor that erupted

1:01:49

within particularly like the United Methodist Church,

1:01:54

The Presbyterian Churches USA

1:01:58

was caused by people who were in attendance

1:02:01

and, I guess were in attendance, and then

1:02:10

quickly published their interpretation

1:02:15

of what had happened at Re-Imagining.

1:02:19

And so, there was a kind of inquisition spirit

1:02:21

happening in different places.

1:02:27

And, the focus of the furor was fourfold at least.

1:02:30

As I kept seeing it articulated by those

1:02:37

who were in distress, not by the planners,

1:02:41

or most of us who were present there.

1:02:45

And, that was around language for God, like Sophia,

1:02:52

language, the ritual of milk and honey, even though

1:02:55

that has profound ancient roots within both

1:02:58

Judaism and Christianity, the critique of

1:03:03

atonement theology, and then the

1:03:07

what those folks called the celebration of

1:03:13

the sinful homosexual lifestyle.

1:03:17

And so, at times in those publications

1:03:21

they quoted snippets from what I had said.

1:03:28

And, I guess I don't know

1:03:35

that I anticipated,

1:03:40

I didn't have any way of knowing.

1:03:44

I'm not sure anyone knew that

1:03:46

the furor would be as fierce as it was.

1:03:50

So, I remember, and I don't remember exactly when it was,

1:03:55

but not long after Re-Imagining, I was sound asleep

1:03:58

and my sister Stephanie called me from Cleveland

1:04:02

and said, "Turn on Nightline, turn on Nightline.

1:04:04

"They've got your voice on Nightline."

1:04:10

And, I couldn't find where the TV was

1:04:14

for long enough to see it.

1:04:18

Ted Koppel was talking about Re-Imagining.

1:04:22

And then, the 700 Club played a clip of what I said

1:04:26

and other things from Delores Williams.

1:04:30

And then, there were all these publications

1:04:37

that started coming out.

1:04:39

Stuff like the Presbyterian Layman, The Good News,

1:04:43

Hopes Within United Methodist Church

1:04:47

which were publicizing what had happens,

1:04:50

publishing their interpretation and what had happened.

1:04:53

I don't think that

1:04:55

even though I found it profoundly important

1:05:00

that people were singing and the workshops

1:05:06

and the plenary sessions.

1:05:08

And, yeah I was ecstatic about what I was hearing.

1:05:10

I didn't necessarily think it would create

1:05:13

the kind of backlash it did.

1:05:17

Now, it didn't, as much in my own denomination,

1:05:19

the United Church of Christ.

1:05:23

So, I have a bit more sheltered life there

1:05:26

in the United Church of Christ, but also,

1:05:31

it had to be said that partly why that backlash

1:05:34

happened within the United Methodist and the Presbyterians

1:05:36

is because they were also contributors,

1:05:38

the Presbyterian Church, for example.

1:05:41

Like Marianne Lundy served on the planning committee

1:05:44

and was able, I think, if I'm not mistaken, to get funds

1:05:48

of support through the Presbyterian Women and so forth.

1:05:52

I don't think the United Church of Christ

1:05:58

had a central role in planning it, but I didn't know

1:06:00

the answer to that.

1:06:02

So, I do remember writing something

1:06:03

for Faith Johnson who had been working with us on the board,

1:06:06

what was then the board for homeland ministries,

1:06:12

in the United Church for Christ writing a document for her

1:06:14

about my experience at Re-Imagining that might be used

1:06:17

in case there was backlash within

1:06:22

the United Church of Christ.

1:06:24

On the sort of flip side of all of that

1:06:32

and not to minimize what people suffered, because I don't

1:06:37

in any way minimize the cost,

1:06:41

what was at stake for some people, the cost for them

1:06:46

in terms of employment, another thing that I did not suffer.

1:06:50

So, I don't minimize that.

1:06:55

And yet also, I remember feeling like

1:06:57

wow, this is an incredible testimony

1:07:03

to how powerful theological work can be in the world.

1:07:08

It's like the Gospels are just like women speaking

1:07:16

in the early church.

1:07:20

And then, texts maybe attributed to Paul or others

1:07:22

saying, "Women should be silent in the church,"

1:07:26

Elizabeth Schusler for your own said it's written about

1:07:29

all those texts that got into the new testament

1:07:31

of the Christian Scriptures about women not speaking

1:07:35

and not having authority over men.

1:07:38

But, those were all a reaction to women speaking

1:07:39

and claiming authority

1:07:43

and the power of that.

1:07:46

So, the backlash, the backlash comes

1:07:50

as it has happened now in terms of white supremacy,

1:07:55

and recent elections and what were seeing backlash

1:07:59

to the meaning of the first black president and stuff.

1:08:05

It's also a testimony to the power of change

1:08:08

that has been wrought.

1:08:12

And so, I felt not to minimize the suffering

1:08:16

I also thought this is an incredible testament,

1:08:21

if those of us who sometimes feel ourselves

1:08:23

on the margins of the church think that

1:08:27

the church has no more work in the world as a change agent

1:08:32

Re-Imagining is a testimony to something

1:08:37

very different than that.

1:08:42

Re-Imagining is really a testimony to the power,

1:08:44

the Earth shaking power of women Re-Imagining

1:08:47

and theology and spirituality.

1:08:54

I didn't think it was only bad news,

1:08:59

I mean that there was a lot of good news

1:09:01

sort of at the heart of the backlash.

1:09:04

There was one thing that happened, I feel it's insignificant

1:09:13

in contrast to what to some people experienced by way

1:09:19

of loss of jobs and so forth after Re-Imagining,

1:09:23

but I will say I just wanna tell this one story

1:09:26

of something at Leaven,

1:09:30

that my mother and I experienced as backlash,

1:09:34

tangible backlash from Re-Imagining.

1:09:38

We, in our work with Leaven, the non-profit that we

1:09:42

were directors of, we were invited to lead retreats

1:09:48

for clergy women in different parts of the country

1:09:53

and in different denominations.

1:09:58

And, a few months before Re-Imagining we got

1:10:01

an invitation from some RCA clergywomen,

1:10:06

Reform Church of America clergywomen.

1:10:12

And, I don't know if this is accurate, my memory is

1:10:15

that they were asking us to lead the first ever retreat

1:10:18

for RCA clergywomen.

1:10:23

That may not be true, they may have had prior ones,

1:10:26

but it was going to be a significant event for bringing,

1:10:28

because it was still in 1993, I don't know what

1:10:32

the percentage was, but it was a small percent

1:10:36

of all the clergy in the RCA were women.

1:10:40

And, they felt, many of them felt very isolated

1:10:44

in their churches in different parts of the country

1:10:48

and they were longing to come together.

1:10:51

We felt deeply honored.

1:10:53

That is not our denomination.

1:10:55

They had heard from other clergywomen about

1:10:57

the retreats that we lead and so they asked us to come.

1:11:01

They wanted us to provide leadership for

1:11:04

a two or three day retreat.

1:11:09

And, it was going to be I think it was at

1:11:10

Western Seminary in Holland, Michigan

1:11:14

which is an RCA seminary.

1:11:17

They were very excited about, they were calling it

1:11:21

Sisters in a Strange Land.

1:11:23

And, I kind of wondered about using that title because

1:11:25

that was the title we used for an event,

1:11:28

a retreat for Christian lesbians

1:11:30

we were holding annually.

1:11:32

So, I said, "now be careful, 'cause that's a,"

1:11:34

They said, "Oh no, we just loved that

1:11:36

"Sisters in a Strange Land, that's how we feel

1:11:38

"within the RCA."

1:11:41

So it was, Sisters in a Strange Land, a retreat for

1:11:43

RCA clergywomen something like that.

1:11:46

Okay, fine, feel free to use the title.

1:11:49

It was gonna, I don't remember exactly when it was

1:11:56

gonna but several months, a few months after Re-Imagining.

1:11:58

Several weeks after Re-Imagining I get a phone call

1:12:03

from a representative from the commission for women

1:12:07

of the RCA, the Reform Church of America.

1:12:13

And she was, I think, located in New York.

1:12:16

And she said, "Hello Melanie, thank you for all

1:12:19

"the work you've done.

1:12:23

"We're providing financial support for Sisters

1:12:25

"in a Strange Land, that retreat that's going to happen.

1:12:28

"And, we thank you and your mother so much

1:12:31

"for all the work you've done

1:12:34

"in helping to design this but we have decided

1:12:38

"that we, on site, we're going to use other facilitators."

1:12:43

And so, I said, "Excuse me,

1:12:50

"are you calling me right now to say that

1:12:56

"we're being dismissed, fired?

1:12:58

"You're terminating a contract we have?"

1:13:01

She said, "yeah."

1:13:07

I said "Well, do the clergywomen who've been planning

1:13:08

"with us know about this?"

1:13:11

"Well, they will shortly."

1:13:12

-

Oh my goodness.

1:13:15

-

Uh-huh.

And I said, "Could I ask you please what this is about?"

1:13:17

Now Sherry, I had a hunch but I wasn't going to

1:13:23

do her work for her.

1:13:27

I said, (laughs)

1:13:28

"Can I ask what is this abrupt announcement?

1:13:30

"We're very surprised, we're very excited to them.

1:13:34

"We're honored to have been asked.

1:13:37

"We've done some great, laid some great groundwork,

1:13:39

"got this thing designed with these clergywomen

1:13:42

"and why are you calling with this news?"

1:13:46

"Well, we just,"

1:13:50

I don't know, she kind of tried

1:13:55

to walk around the edges and not name it.

1:13:57

I said, "I would like you to be, please, direct with me now.

1:13:59

"What's going on?"

1:14:04

And, she said, "Well, we are aware

1:14:06

"that you work with Clout."

1:14:10

I thought, "How in the world did she know this?"

1:14:14

And then, I was like, oh my goodness.

1:14:16

I'll bet there's some women from the Commission for Women

1:14:19

sitting at Re-Imagining when I began speaking.

1:14:24

This is my imagination, she didn't say all that.

1:14:30

This is my imagination that they thought to themselves

1:14:31

and sitting there, "We know that name Melanie Morrison,

1:14:34

"Oh we know that name, how do we know?

1:14:36

"Oh, my goodness

1:14:38

"she's one of the leaders of this retreat."

1:14:44

She finally said, I asked her, "Well, how do you

1:14:49

"know about Clout?"

1:14:52

And she goes, "Well, we know that you spoke

1:14:54

"at Re-Imagining and we know,"

1:14:57

and then she said things like,

1:14:58

I have to be a little careful here.

1:15:05

But, this was 25 years ago.

1:15:05

She had actually, she said,

1:15:08

"We have to be really careful about

1:15:11

"we're going to have seminarians there.

1:15:15

"We need to protect our seminarians and so forth."

1:15:18

I said, "you don't even know what we're going to be

1:15:21

"presenting at this."

1:15:25

Anyway, so as soon as I got off the phone with her

1:15:27

I called the clergywoman who had been working

1:15:32

most closely with us, who had initially contacted us.

1:15:35

Then, she was enraged to hear, from me,

1:15:38

that wasn't the commission

1:15:43

and lodged a protest and took, I don't know

1:15:45

whether that retreat ever took place.

1:15:50

There was talk for a while among the clergywomen

1:15:52

about they had asked us, "Would you consider

1:15:56

"leading a retreat in exile in the same town

1:16:00

"that we'll just leave the commission there

1:16:05

"at the Seminary, we'll find a little location.

1:16:07

"And, we will exit that and leave them holding

1:16:11

"the bag financially.

1:16:15

"Would you lead a retreat?"

1:16:17

We said, "Sure, we'd do that with you."

1:16:19

And, that never came to pass.

1:16:20

And, I don't know what finally happened with that retreat.

1:16:23

That was one small piece of fall out.

1:16:28

But, I certainly

1:16:33

heard from all kinds of people throughout the country

1:16:38

in different denominations

1:16:42

about the backlash that was going on

1:16:46

and how my name was being invoked or Clout's was

1:16:48

and so forth.

1:16:51

And I'll just say it's kind of insignificant but

1:16:52

strange that what got attributed to me

1:16:56

in different places was actually sometimes

1:17:01

what I really said there fell out of

1:17:05

like what was said in the Christian Sentry

1:17:10

about what took place and the protests that

1:17:13

were being lodged add it that Melanie Morrison

1:17:16

prayed to Mauna,

1:17:19

M-a-u-n-a, our creator.

1:17:21

Now, I think that that was indeed a prayer

1:17:24

that was issued, but was not by me.

1:17:26

But, that kind of got attached to me and showed up

1:17:29

in lots of different publications

1:17:32

that I had said that prayer.

1:17:34

I in no way wanted to be dismissive of that

1:17:36

Earth centered prayer, as I remember it.

1:17:40

But, I did let it be known some places that

1:17:45

no that's not what I did, but here's the speech

1:17:48

I did give.

1:17:51

(laughs)

1:17:52

In the full text of wanting to carry our witness forth.

1:17:54

-

Wonderful, oh Melanie this is great.

1:18:00

I was wondering, what do you think, I know it's

1:18:04

25 years later, almost, what do you think

1:18:06

is the greatest legacy of Re-Imagining

1:18:08

as we look back on it?

1:18:11

-

Well, I think that

1:18:21

I know that I was so thrilled at the time

1:18:28

that different communities that were doing important

1:18:34

Re-Imagining work were brought together

1:18:41

in that one place.

1:18:46

So, women from the Philippians and from the continent

1:18:51

of Africa and from different geographical locations

1:18:56

also women of color, different communities of color

1:19:01

and white women doing feminist theology and such,

1:19:05

that we were in the same place sharing

1:19:09

more deeply, in some cases from each other

1:19:14

and the challenges that were being posed to each other.

1:19:17

I mean, that was a wonderful gift of Re-Imagining.

1:19:23

And, I think that

1:19:31

I know that I would hear in years afterwards

1:19:36

that the movement was continuing

1:19:43

because people, such as yourself, who would,

1:19:45

you were carrying on these Re-Imagining communities

1:19:48

so that new generations of women who were hungry

1:19:54

for Re-Imagining church

1:20:00

and Re-Imagining God,

1:20:05

Re-Imagining Jesus, Re-Imagining spirit

1:20:07

and so on and so forth, that there was a place

1:20:10

and a memory of a place

1:20:13

that they could feel some anchoring in.

1:20:17

So, I think that's been a tremendous contribution.

1:20:20

-

Thank you, a couple of final questions here.

1:20:26

What do you think Re-Imagining means today?

1:20:30

And, I don't mean specifically the Re-Imagining community,

1:20:32

but what needs to be re-imagined today?

1:20:35

-

Oh my.

1:20:46

(laughs)

-

It's a tough question, I know.

1:20:47

-

Yeah.

1:20:50

-

Well, you're doing

in your Allies for Change it seems like you're working

1:20:51

to do those kind of changes.

1:20:54

-

Some of the work, I mean most of the work

1:21:05

that I do with Allies for Change that is work

1:21:08

it's anti-racism education and consulting and so forth.

1:21:13

Most of it is done with colleagues of color

1:21:18

in multi-racial spaces.

1:21:22

I have also, for 23 years, been co-facilitating

1:21:25

something called Doing Our Own Work.

1:21:32

Fixed day, intensive, anti-racism seminar

1:21:36

for white people.

1:21:42

Because, it was our experience actually,

1:21:46

actually in 1994 we launched Doing Our Own Work.

1:21:53

So, about the same historical epoch,

1:21:56

and era as Re-Imagining.

1:21:59

We launched Doing Our Own Work at the encouragement

1:22:02

of colleagues and friends of color who said,

1:22:06

"I am just weary of educating white people.

1:22:10

"It's really time for you all to do your own work.

1:22:14

"But, also do your own work in helping each other

1:22:18

"move through the places where you so frequently

1:22:22

"get stuck, in places of denial, fear,

1:22:24

"greed, guilt, shame.

1:22:28

"That work is yours not ours.

1:22:32

"And yes, it's really important that you show up

1:22:36

"along side us, in solidarity with us, but how you

1:22:40

"show up is also very important.

1:22:44

"So, you all need to do some of that work

1:22:48

"to come up to speed, to dive deep.

1:22:51

"Ask, how do you feel about being white.

1:22:54

"What does it mean to be white?"

1:22:58

So, I feel like some of that

1:23:00

re-imagining, re-inventing what it means to be anti-racist,

1:23:05

white people to understand that racism is our history,

1:23:11

the history that our ancestors gave to birth

1:23:16

to white supremacy.

1:23:19

And that we do some really deep work

1:23:21

around re-imagining and this is

1:23:25

I am embodied and here I have many identities

1:23:36

in this body and one of them is that I am a white woman.

1:23:40

So, I re-present that

1:23:48

in every space I move into, and how I

1:23:52

re-present that matters profoundly.

1:23:55

So that's, I don't know if I have said it in the way

1:24:01

adequately, but that's some of the work

1:24:05

that's most important to me right now is to

1:24:08

first and foremost to dismantle structural racism

1:24:15

and the devastating toll it still has on communities

1:24:22

of color and people of color.

1:24:26

That's the most important work.

1:24:28

But also then, to be asking

1:24:30

how can we as white people show up in this struggle

1:24:35

in better ways

1:24:41

so that we might really be

1:24:46

co-conspirators and accomplices in this

1:24:52

work that is unfortunately, it is a lot,

1:24:58

it's so, so, so much work yet to be done.

1:25:04

-

Thank you, thank you.

1:25:09

One last question, we have a Re-Imagining website

1:25:11

that is set up and it includes, you mentioned

1:25:15

listening to the cassettes.

1:25:18

We are in the process of digitizing all the conferences,

1:25:20

the first few are on there including 1993.

1:25:24

And, it includes the presenters and the rituals

1:25:27

so people can now listen to them.

1:25:30

We also have resources on there.

1:25:33

We have events, we're planning several celebrations

1:25:35

for 2018, which is the 25th anniversary.

1:25:39

And, I'm just wondering if you have thoughts about

1:25:42

what would be helpful to include in a website like this

1:25:45

resources or other things that might be useful to people?

1:25:49

-

Is this something I can get back to you?

1:25:56

-

You sure can, yes, I kind of sprang that, absolutely yes.

1:25:58

You don't need to answer right now.

1:26:01

-

I'd like to ponder that question.

1:26:02

-

Sure, of course.

1:26:04

-

And, I'd like to see what is there now and what

1:26:05

you're fashioning and then maybe make suggestions, yes.

1:26:08

-

That would be wonderful I will email you the URL

1:26:12

so you can kind of look at it and let me know

1:26:16

what you would suggest to include.

1:26:18

That would be wonderful.

1:26:21

And finally Melanie, is there anything we haven't discussed

1:26:22

that you would like to add?

1:26:26

-

I don't know of anything, no, I really have

1:26:33

deeply appreciated this conversation

1:26:37

and the opportunity to search

1:26:40

for some of my files and to go into

1:26:46

the remembering the experience of being there.

1:26:49

So, it' been really good to remember what it meant

1:26:54

to me then and what it continues to mean.

1:27:00

So thank you, thanks for this invitation, Sherry.

1:27:02

-

Thank you, Melanie.

1:27:06

-

Thank you for the work you're doing.

1:27:07

I have just

1:27:09

completed a book that I spent

1:27:13

nearly 10 years writing, researching and writing.

1:27:19

It's going to be published by Duke University

1:27:23

Press next year.

1:27:24

It's historical narrative mostly, so I have spent

1:27:28

a lot of time in archives and my appreciation

1:27:32

for the people who archive materials

1:27:37

and for the fact that archives exist

1:27:41

and for archivists is enormous, and for historians.

1:27:43

In doing that work I'm just so grateful

1:27:49

and so I'm very grateful to you and others

1:27:52

for putting this together for our collective remembrance.

1:27:55

-

Yes thank you, and I have come to appreciate

1:28:00

archivists and archivists as well.

1:28:03

What is the title of your book?

1:28:04

Does it have a title yet, Melanie?

1:28:06

-

Yes, it's called Murder on Shades Mountain:

1:28:10

the Legal Lynching of Willie Peterson

1:28:18

and the Struggle for Justice in Jim Crow Birmingham.

1:28:22

-

Oh, I did see that on the website.

1:28:26

That sounds fascinating, Melanie,

1:28:28

I'll have to look for that.

1:28:30

-

Okay.

1:28:32

-

Great.

I'm gonna turn off the recording now and so

1:28:34

just give me a second.

1:28:37

Morrison, Melanie S.

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