Kim, Judith / Re-Imagining Collection / Duke Digital Repository

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Well, Judy, thank you so much

0:01

for agreeing to be interviewed.

0:03

If we can just get some background information.

0:04

Could you say your full name?

0:07

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My name is Judith Allen Kim,

0:09

the Reverend Judith Allen Kim.

0:13

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Wonderful.

0:15

How is Allen spelled?

0:16

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A-L-L-E-N

0:17

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Great. Good.

0:19

And are you lay or clergy?

0:20

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Clergy.

0:22

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And your denomination?

0:22

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Presbyterian Church U.S.A

0:24

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Thank you so much.

0:25

And Judy when and where were you born?

0:27

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I was born in 1946

0:29

in Minneapolis, Minnesota.

0:31

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Oh, great.

0:33

And where did you go to school?

0:34

Graduate or divinity school?

0:36

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I went to,

0:37

after Macalester College I was a teacher for a while

0:38

and then I went to

0:41

United Theological Seminary of the Twin Cities.

0:43

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Wonderful.

0:46

And what worker ministry were you doing

0:47

at the time of Re-Imagining?

0:49

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(chuckles) I was trying to think about that

0:51

on the way here.

0:53

(Interviewer chuckles)

I was ordained as an interim pastor

0:54

at West Minister in 1989

0:56

and I went on to do several interim pastorates.

1:00

And I don't actually remember where I was in 1993.

1:03

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I don't blame you.

1:06

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But I was an interim pastor

1:07

at a Presbyterian church in the Twin Cities area.

1:08

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Okay.

1:10

That's good enough, yes. (laughs)

1:11

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I could find out the exact answer

1:13

if you needed to know.

1:14

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That's fine.

1:15

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Okay.

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And what worker ministry did you do after Re-Imagining?

1:17

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Well, I did a lot of other ecumenical work.

1:23

I was on the board of the Minnesota Council of Churches,

1:28

as a Presbyterian representative.

1:29

I worked with other ecumenical bodies

1:33

but mostly, I stayed as an interim pastor

1:37

at various Presbyterian churches.

1:40

Except five years at Wayzata Community Church,

1:43

which is UCC.

1:46

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Okay.

1:47

And did you say you're

1:48

at West Minister Presbyterian now?

1:49

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I am, as a parish associate,

1:51

which is a volunteer clergy position

1:54

for retired pastors.

1:56

But I do about 10 hours a week

1:58

of pastoral calling,

2:00

usually hospital and nursing home visitation.

2:01

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Oh, wonderful.

2:03

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Yeah, it is a wonderful position to be able to do.

2:05

I'm also a volunteer bible study leader during the year.

2:07

We just finished our bible study year.

2:10

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I love it.

2:13

And that's at West Minister, as well?

2:14

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At West Minister.

2:15

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Oh.

2:16

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So after I retired, I went back

2:17

to where I was ordained and where I first was a pastor.

2:18

And then these other things evolved out of that,

2:22

the fact that I was worshiping there.

2:26

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Oh, I love it.

2:28

That's great.

2:28

Now do you recall how or when you first

2:30

became aware of feminist theology?

2:33

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Well, that would be at,

2:36

even before I went to United Seminary

2:37

because I think we had,

2:40

I was a member of Oak Grove Presbyterian Church

2:43

in Bloomington

2:46

and we would occasionally have pastors

2:47

or teachers from United Seminary

2:49

teach adult education classes.

2:52

And I think that's where I first became aware of it.

2:54

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Um-hmm.

2:56

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But it has,

3:01

has bubbled up in me for a long, long time.

3:03

I think it says in the book,

3:06

I was surprised that it said,

3:07

had the little story about when I was in seminary.

3:09

And my son, who was in the third grade at the time,

3:12

had to write a paper about God

3:14

and wrote, "God is a good dude or dudette."

3:16

So I knew I'd had some influence on this child.

3:19

(both laughing)

3:22

I'm not sure about the older ones.

3:23

He got that idea,

3:24

God is good and God is neither male nor female.

3:25

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Yes.

3:28

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I love that he,

3:29

he got that.

3:30

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Yes.

3:30

And at a young age, already!

3:31

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At a young age, third or fourth grade.

3:33

I'm not sure which.

3:34

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That is wonderful.

Yeah.

3:36

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Yeah.

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Do you recall,

3:37

kinda your reaction to feminist theology?

3:38

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It was like,

3:40

bring it on!

3:41

(Interviewer laughs)

It's what I've been waiting for.

3:42

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Yes.

3:44

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This is,

3:44

and I knew Sally Hill

3:46

before I went to seminary.

3:49

So I was exposed to these wonderful women

3:51

who were doing feminist theology in a quieter way.

3:54

Sally Hill, Sheila Gustafson,

3:57

Marianne Lundy.

4:00

I mean, I grew up in St. Luke Church

4:02

where Mar,

4:03

My parents were charter members of that church

4:06

where Marianne Lundy's was the,

4:08

husband was the pastor.

4:09

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Oh, right.

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Her ex-husband.

4:11

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Yes, yes.

Dick Lundy.

4:13

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Who was one of the participants in the conference.

4:14

Did she tell you he was asked to change tables?

4:16

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Yes, she did tell me that story.

4:19

Yes, she did, yes.

4:21

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Some woman complained

4:22

about having a man at her table.

4:23

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That's right.

4:25

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And it was Dick Lundy.

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It was Dick Lundy, yes.

4:26

That's right.

4:27

I'm actually going to be interviewing him too.

4:28

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Oh, good!

4:30

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So I want

to hear his perspective, as well.

4:31

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Good, good, good.

4:32

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That's wonderful.

4:33

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Yeah.

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Good.

4:34

If we could move

4:36

to Re-Imagining.

4:37

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Okay.

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I would love to hear

4:38

about you relationship to Re-Imagining.

4:39

How you first got involved,

4:41

we can start with that.

4:43

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I don't even know how I first got involved.

4:44

(both laugh)

4:45

I just know that I was rec,

4:46

probably by Sally Hill,

4:48

was recruited

4:50

to be on the Program Committee,

4:51

starting in 1990.

4:53

And it was already underway,

4:55

this whole idea of the Ecumenical Decade,

4:56

the churches in solidarity with women,

4:58

and Marianne Lundy had some money.

5:03

She had some money

5:07

and she earmarked it for this conference

5:09

that we were going to plan that was har,

5:11

you know, in the very beginning stages.

5:12

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Yes.

5:14

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But she saved that money

just for this conference.

5:16

And so, Marianne and Sally

5:21

really were the beginning,

5:24

the very beginning.

5:27

And then they recruited all these women they knew locally

5:28

and then,

5:31

it grew and grew and grew.

5:34

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You know you have an important story to tell,

5:36

as being involved really early on.

5:38

I would love to hear what you remember

5:40

about how this whole thing evolved,

5:42

what you remember about that process,

5:44

or what it was like.

5:46

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It evolved

5:47

slowly and I would say,

5:50

I guess the current buzzword is organically.

5:51

But I think that's how it grew.

5:55

I mean, first we were looking at,

5:56

as the Program Committee,

5:59

looking at people we knew to be teachers and preachers

6:00

and people who we knew were already into feminist theology.

6:04

But because we talked,

6:07

we, some people talked in denominational heads

6:09

and other people around the country

6:13

we got the names of so many other people

6:16

we'd never heard of

6:17

who ended up being these fabulous speakers.

6:19

And it was probably, probably pivotal for them

6:22

to have been invited to be in this conference

6:27

from around the world.

6:29

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Yeah.

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And so I loved the way it grew,

6:32

just grew in ways we hadn't foreseen

6:35

when we first started out

6:38

saying we're going to have this conference.

6:39

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Yeah.

6:40

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This one-time deal.

6:41

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Yeah.

6:43

And I wonder, you wrote a little bit about this

6:43

in your great essay in "Re-membering and Re-Imagining,"

6:45

about how,

6:48

could you say a little bit more

6:49

about how the speakers developed

6:51

to include women of color, women around the world,

6:52

what that...

6:55

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You know, I didn't do that part of it myself.

6:57

I think Sally Hill did a lot of that,

7:00

and Marianne did.

7:02

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Did they? Yeah.

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Because I didn't know these women from around the world.

7:05

This was all new to me.

7:07

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Yeah.

7:09

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You know, I knew the Letty Russell

7:10

and Beverly Harrison and these people

7:12

that were kind of in our world.

7:14

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Right.

7:17

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And I actually also went to a conference

7:19

at Ghost Ranch in New Mexico,

7:24

the year before the conference

7:27

and Marianne was there

7:29

and Letty Russell was there.

7:31

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Hmm.

7:33

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And it was sort of preparing for this.

7:34

So all these other great thinkers just kept

7:36

making the list of speakers grow and grow and grow

7:39

so that we were exposed to things

7:44

we'd never, ever dreamed we be hearing about.

7:45

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Yeah.

7:48

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Yeah.

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From, would you talk a little bit about,

7:50

it's the impression I have,

7:52

and you can tell me if this is right or not,

7:53

is it started out fairly small

7:54

but then it just kept growing and getting,

7:56

Is that right?

7:58

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Right.

I think that's true.

7:59

I think probably it was originally

8:00

going to be a one or two day conference

8:02

and then all of a sudden it's a four day conference.

8:04

And because we had so many wonderful speaker ideas

8:07

sent to us and workshop ideas

8:11

and all these various ideas for presenters,

8:13

and we wanted to include as many.

8:16

There was a lot of fundraising that went on

8:18

so that women from around the world,

8:20

lay and clergy, could come on scholarships,

8:22

which was a really important part of deal.

8:25

I didn't have to do any fundraising

8:27

but somebody did.

8:28

And it was partly the money that Marianne Lundy

8:30

had squirreled away.

8:33

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Yes.

8:34

(both laugh)

8:34

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Paying for that.

8:35

But there were denominational contributions.

8:37

I mean, denominations weren't expecting something

8:39

that was going to be earth-shaking.

8:43

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Yes, exactly.

8:44

Yeah.

8:46

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Well, some people in the Presbyterian denomination,

8:47

I'm sure, had figured that out in advance

8:49

but most people didn't.

8:52

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Yeah, yeah.

8:54

I mean, you say "some people."

8:55

Do you mean --

8:56

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Some leaders in the Presbyterian church

8:57

surely knew where,

9:00

that this was going in a very feminist direction.

9:00

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Right, right.

9:04

Yeah, yeah.

9:05

So you ruf--

9:06

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And didn't seem

to be worried about that.

9:08

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Oh, interesting.

9:09

Yes, yeah.

9:11

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That's interesting too.

9:12

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We'll have to talk more

9:13

about the backlash in a minute.

9:14

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Okay.

9:15

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So you were on the Program Committee.

9:15

You were at the '93 conference.

9:16

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Um-hmm.

9:19

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Do you remember what that was like,

9:20

what that experience was for you?

9:21

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It was fabulous.

9:23

I wished that I had gotten a room downtown

9:26

so I didn't miss anything in the evening

9:29

after the main programs were over.

9:30

Every speaker had more to say

9:33

that was new and fascinating to me.

9:36

And the workshops,

9:39

I mean, there were so many workshops.

9:40

You couldn't attend half of them.

9:41

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(chuckles) Right.

9:43

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They were all wonderful.

9:43

I mean, I thought,

9:46

"How did we ever get this accumulation

9:48

"of people in one room?

9:51

"How did we, the big we, make this happen?"

9:52

But it did.

9:56

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Yeah.

-

It did.

9:57

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Are there certain moments that stand out to you

9:59

from that conference?

10:01

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Well, certainly the worship,

10:02

and the rituals that we did,

10:04

the ones that made us look like goddess worshipers

10:06

to some more conservative folks.

10:10

The language was so beautiful,

10:15

all-inclusive language.

10:17

Rituals that included women.

10:19

Remembering and being told out loud,

10:22

"Remember you're created in the Divine Image

10:26

"with a uterus."

10:29

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Mm-hmm, yes.

10:30

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I mean, very earthy.

10:33

This is it.

10:34

Milk and Honey Ritual,

10:35

very biblical.

10:37

Oh how that was interpreted

10:39

was crazy.

10:41

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Exactly.

Yes.

10:43

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I mean, I really did not expect,

10:45

because I hadn't thought forward from the event,

10:47

I had not expected backlash.

10:50

But when it hit,

10:53

I was like "Oh yeah, of course we're going to get hit."

10:54

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Mmm.

10:57

Why did you think that,

10:58

"Of course we're going to get hit"?

10:59

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Well, just because,

11:01

especially because of the worship

11:03

that folks of a more conservative ilk

11:04

would realize that this kind of worship

11:09

was created by women for women

11:12

and that men didn't have a damn thing

11:15

to do with it.

11:18

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Yeah.

And so, how do you interpret why that was,

11:19

Why they reacted the way they did?

11:23

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I think so many men

11:25

were really threatened by the idea of women doing theology.

11:28

Because it had always been done by men before.

11:33

It just never occurred to them

11:37

that you could talk about being created

11:38

in the Divine Image with a uterus.

11:40

It just, it threatened so many people.

11:42

I mean, it threatened women too

11:45

but I, it was the men in leadership

11:46

who caused the real problems, of course.

11:48

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Yeah, yeah.

11:49

Now were you directly affected by the backlash at all?

11:51

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I was not.

11:54

Because I was,

11:55

First of all, everyone knew I was part of it

11:56

so I, you know, I read Judy Strauss's essay

11:58

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Yes.

12:01

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About, and I knew that Judy and I were good friends.

12:02

We were at the conference at Ghost Ranch as roommates

12:05

the year before Re-Imagining,

12:07

so we were all over this.

12:09

And I know that she was very worried

12:11

and she would never put that in her resume

12:13

because she was moving.

12:16

I mean, she remarried

12:17

a former denominational executive.

12:19

She moved to Pittsburgh,

12:21

where there'd been a lot of backlash.

12:23

So just because I was local

12:26

and even if I'd wanted to hide it,

12:29

I couldn't have.

12:31

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Yes.

12:32

I'll just add, I'm going to interview her too.

12:33

I'm looking forward to it.

12:34

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Oh, good.

Oh good.

12:36

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Yes, yes, yes.

So let's, that's good to know.

12:37

That's great.

12:38

So it didn't affect you personally

12:39

but obviously people you knew

12:40

were really affected.

12:42

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Oh yes.

Certainly Marianne, being fired.

12:44

I mean, it was just appauling.

12:46

We were all,

12:48

we couldn't believe.

12:49

And we knew that she

12:50

had support of a lot of people quietly.

12:51

She talks about her colleagues quietly supporting her

12:54

but in public, being examined

12:56

by a General Assembly committee

12:59

and not being allowed to speak,

13:00

not being,

13:02

not allowing people to thank her

13:03

for her contribution.

13:06

I mean, that was just appauling.

13:08

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This was a General Assembly,

13:11

people wanted to publicly thank her?

13:12

Could you say whi --

13:14

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I just read her piece.

13:15

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Yes, sure.

-

So it's in there.

13:18

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Yes.

-

It was at a General Assembly meeting

13:19

where they were interviewing her,

13:21

or they were dealing with the backlash.

13:23

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Right.

13:24

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And she said something to the effect of,

13:26

"My colleagues were individually supportive of me

13:28

"but I was not allowed to speak."

13:31

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Mm-hmm, yes.

13:34

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"And when people got up at the end to thank me,

13:35

"they were ruled out of order."

13:37

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Mm-hmm.

13:40

Were you at General Assembly

13:42

where they talked about Re-Imagining?

13:43

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I was.

13:45

I went to testify.

13:46

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You did?

13:48

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That's not in the book.

13:49

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I want to hear about this.

13:50

This is really important.

13:51

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So there was committee dealing with Re-Imagining backlash.

13:52

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Mm-hmm.

13:56

-

And the General Assembly was in Kansas City.

13:57

I was not a commissioner

14:01

but I went just to testify to this committee

14:01

about Re-Imagining.

14:04

And I was given a very short time limit,

14:07

maybe three minutes,

14:10

so I had actually written it out.

14:11

I didn't read it

14:14

but I had it in front of me.

14:14

And the basis of my testimony was,

14:17

the church has always re-imagined itself.

14:21

And if it hadn't, it would have died out

14:24

as a group of Jewish fishermen.

14:26

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Um-hmm.

14:29

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This was the bottom line of my testimony. (chuckles)

14:30

-

Oh.

14:33

So you, first of all, you volunteered to do this,

14:34

right?

14:36

-

I volunteered to do that

because I wanted to be supportive.

14:37

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Yes.

14:38

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And I wanted to say this was a wonderful thing.

14:39

One of the interesting things about that General Assembly

14:41

is sitting and talking with a man

14:45

who was obviously very conservative

14:47

but had listened to every single one of those tapes

14:49

on his drive to Kansas City

14:51

from wherever he was from.

14:53

He had listened to all those conversations

14:54

and I thought,

14:57

even if he's a conservative man,

14:58

he's gotta be in some positive way influenced

15:00

by what happened in all those conversations,

15:03

all those lectures,

15:07

and worship.

15:08

-

Yeah.

-

It's got to have affected,

15:09

and he seemed pretty gentle when he talked to me.

15:10

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Did he?

15:12

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It wasn't an attack.

He was clearly conservative

15:13

but he was not attacking me.

15:14

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Yes, yes.

-

It was just,

15:16

we're having a conversation over lunch

15:17

and I said, "I just am so ecstatic

15:19

"that you listened to every one of those tapes."

15:23

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Yes, yeah.

15:25

And there was a conversation.

15:26

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Yeah, there was a conversation.

15:27

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Yeah.

15:29

-

So I go to have that.

15:29

-

Now did you get any reaction to your testimony.

15:30

-

"Thank you."

15:33

That was it, nothing else.

15:34

-

And what was your reaction

15:37

to the report that came out of General Assembly?

15:38

(Judy sighs)

15:41

And I know it's been a while. (laughs)

15:42

-

Well, the report that came out,

15:43

and it's funny

15:45

because they've used this now in other instances,

15:47

was called "Theology Matters."

15:51

-

Um-hmm.

15:53

-

And "Theology Matters" was a way of saying

15:54

what we did, was theology but it wasn't their theo,

15:56

It wasn't the theology of a lot of the people in power.

16:00

-

Yeah.

16:04

-

Though it was the theology of some

16:05

of the people in power.

16:06

-

Yeah.

16:07

-

And every once in a while,

16:09

I see something up coming up

16:11

where they use that "Something Matters,"

16:13

"Black Lives Matter."

16:15

-

Right, right.

16:16

-

But there have been several others since then,

16:18

that have come up, using that phrase

16:20

but that was what they came up with.

16:22

And I thought, "Well, that part is true.

16:23

"Theology does matter."

16:26

It's like, it is true.

16:28

God is good and God is neither male nor female

16:30

and theology matters.

16:33

And the denomination has to deal

16:34

with it's right wing conservatives.

16:37

And this is how they did it.

16:39

And it ended up with Marianne being fired

16:41

and people being afraid

16:45

to say they were a part of this movement.

16:47

-

Yeah.

16:49

-

And yet, they were.

-

Yes.

16:50

-

They were.

16:51

So yes,

16:54

and theology done by women matters.

16:56

-

Yeah.

16:59

-

Why would it all be done by men?

17:00

Really, why?

17:03

-

Yeah.

So what do you think the net result was

17:05

of the backlash and the report that came out,

17:07

the testimonies?

17:11

-

It made some people stronger

17:14

in their convictions as feminist theologians.

17:16

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Yes.

17:19

-

Feminist thinkers.

17:19

And it made other, it made some people,

17:21

especially in more conservative areas

17:24

afraid to voice what they believed.

17:26

-

Yes.

17:29

-

But it also made the organization

17:31

continue as an organization

17:32

instead of a one-time conference.

17:34

-

Right, right.

17:36

There was one part of that report

17:37

I wanted to get your reaction to,

17:38

if you remember.

17:40

-

Yeah.

-

One of the comments was,

17:41

it talked about how,

17:41

you know, theological work by women is important

17:43

and everything.

17:44

I believe one of the phrases in it is

17:46

something about,

17:48

this went beyond the boundaries

17:49

of Reformed Theology.

17:50

So how would you respond to that?

17:52

-

Well, a lot of that was driven

17:53

by those conservative reporters

17:57

who came to our meetings

17:59

from especially the Presbyterian Layman was the worst.

18:00

-

Mm-hmm.

18:03

-

The group that accused us of

18:05

worshiping a goddess

18:07

because we sang to Sophia, Wisdom.

18:09

Not a woman but wisdom, sophia wisdom.

18:12

(Judy sighs)

18:18

It was so depressing

18:22

that the ideas came out in those conservative,

18:25

in the conservative press.

18:29

And then that Presbyterian conservative press

18:32

affected other denominations.

18:34

-

Mm-hmm.

18:37

-

They got the Methodists,

18:39

little bit the Lutherans.

18:40

They got to other groups

18:41

but it was primarily lead

18:43

by the conservative Presbyterians.

18:44

So the money originally came from the Presbyterians,

18:45

the backlash of,

18:48

the biggest part of the backlash

18:49

started with the Presbyterians.

18:51

-

It did.

18:52

-

So I've already forgotten what you actually asked me.

18:53

-

Oh about the beyond the

18:57

beyond the boundary.

18:58

-

Oh beyond the boundaries.

It was considered beyond the boundaries

18:59

because, especially because of our worship.

19:01

And because we had a Milk and Honey Ritual

19:03

that was considered,

19:06

that was clearly beyond the boundaries,

19:10

that we should create something

19:12

taken right out of the Bible

19:13

and make it into a ritual.

19:15

-

Yes.

19:17

-

That and the Sophia,

19:19

those were the things

19:20

that really got people up in arms.

19:21

And then Nancy Chin's artwork

19:23

that happened during our discussions of the female body.

19:23

-

Mm-hmm.

19:29

-

That were so lovely.

19:30

So lovely

19:33

and yet,

19:34

pretty offensive to men

19:36

who couldn't understand what we were doing.

19:38

The Presbyterian Layman was so ready to attack us.

19:43

I mean, we knew they were coming,

19:48

we knew they were ready to attack us

19:50

but we never expected,

19:52

I never expected that it would be as bad as it was.

19:54

Maybe Marianne did.

19:56

-

And they had been involved before

19:58

in, Presbyterian Layman.

20:01

-

Yeah, and they have attacked everything more progressive.

20:04

-

Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

20:07

That's really helpful.

20:10

Now were you part of the committee

20:12

that helped to establish the community?

20:14

-

I was, I was.

20:16

-

I really want

to hear about that.

20:18

What was that like?

20:19

What was people's reactions afterward?

20:20

How did that happen?

20:21

-

Well, it was again one of those things

20:23

that we hadn't planned

20:27

and it just had to happen.

20:28

I mean, there was no question.

20:30

We had to continue.

20:33

We had to fight this backlash.

20:34

We had to keep educating people.

20:35

We had to keep teaching and preaching.

20:36

It was as if we didn't have a choice.

20:40

We had to do it.

20:43

And so this lovely group of women

20:46

was meeting in the basement

20:47

of a Minnesota Church center

20:49

for a long,

20:53

for years.

20:54

I mean, I stayed on the committee for many years

20:55

until we finally

20:58

outlasted a kind of budget.

21:01

I mean, we created those, more and more conferences.

21:04

I went to every one of them.

21:06

I have the tapes from every one of them,

21:08

if you need any extra tapes.

21:10

-

Thank you.

21:11

-

And we just had to keep going.

21:13

We just had to.

21:18

-

So it really wasn't even a debate, so much?

21:20

-

It really wasn't.

21:22

It's like, it's obvious.

21:23

-

Right.

21:25

-

Obvious we had to keep going.

21:26

-

Yes, yeah.

21:27

And then, do you remember

21:29

how it evolved into the more conferences,

21:31

faith labs, small groups,

21:36

I mean, the publications.

21:38

It was so much.

21:40

-

Yeah, there was so much.

21:41

Oh that's right, our publications.

21:42

I'd forgotten about those.

21:43

-

Yeah.

21:44

-

Yeah.

21:45

It just kept growing

21:46

as we saw the need

21:47

to keep educating and teaching and preaching

21:49

and opening people's minds.

21:53

And there were so many people with these great ideas.

21:56

I mean, people who knew how to do publications.

21:59

People who knew.

22:01

Pam Joern was such an amazing part

22:02

of the whole conference.

22:05

The play she wrote for the conference

22:06

and then the things she did afterwards

22:07

continue to make the organization stronger

22:10

and more creative and imaginitive,

22:14

bringing in the arts

22:19

that we did from the very beginning.

22:20

I didn't mention that earlier,

22:22

the drawing on the table,

22:23

on the paper table cloths.

22:24

-

Yes.

22:26

-

It was the first time I was ever exposed Cray-Pas.

22:27

Now I love Cray-Pas.

22:29

I have ever since.

22:30

-

Ah!

22:31

-

So I have them

for my grandchildren to play with.

22:32

To be able to sit and do that

22:35

while you're listening to a lecture

22:36

was very freeing.

22:38

So these creative people

22:40

kept bringing more and more of these things in

22:41

so that we could keep teaching.

22:43

-

Yes, yes.

22:45

-

Keep reaching people.

-

Yeah.

22:47

You know, you mentioned you went to

22:49

all of the conferences,

22:50

which is fantastic.

22:52

And I'm sure you don't remember every detail

22:53

of every one of them. (chuckles)

22:55

-

I certainly don't.

22:56

-

I'm just won, yeah,

Are there any moments that stand out for you?

22:57

It's been a while, I know.

23:00

-

Yeah.

23:01

-

But any moments

in particular?

23:02

-

Well,

it was always the worship.

23:03

-

Yes.

23:04

-

It was always the worship and the rituals

23:05

that bless Sophia.

23:07

-

Yes.

-

The things that we did

23:10

that we continue doing

23:11

to raise up

23:13

this divine female image

23:14

and this divine female image in each of us.

23:17

-

Yes, yeah, yeah.

23:21

Did you belong to a small group at some point?

23:24

-

I didn't belong to a small group

23:26

but I was on these committees for many years.

23:27

(both laugh)

23:29

I don't remember how many years.

23:31

-

That is wonderful.

23:32

So, how would you define Re-Imagining?

23:35

What is it or was it?

23:39

-

Did I write,

23:44

Did I write anything down here?

23:45

Let's see.

23:46

I wrote down,

23:50

"It was always open to the Holy Spirit

23:51

"with an emphasis on women doing theology

23:54

"from a woman's point of view."

23:57

But it's the re-imagining,

24:00

it's the imagining part that was so important.

24:02

Re-Member,

24:05

Re-Imagine,

24:06

Re-Put Together,

24:07

Re-Create,

24:09

all these things that we did was part of that,

24:10

being open to the Holy Spirit

24:13

and realizing that women could do theology.

24:16

-

Mm-hmm.

24:19

Exactly, yes.

24:20

How did feminist theology affect the structure

24:21

and functioning of the community,

24:24

as you look at it?

24:26

-

Well, I think it stayed very inclusive,

24:28

very open.

24:31

When you go back to the idea of the round tables

24:32

that we had at the first conference,

24:35

we carried that idea through.

24:36

When I have gone to a meeting over at Plymouth,

24:38

we've been in a circle.

24:41

So we continue that

24:43

inclusive image of the,

24:46

we're all equal contributors to the story.

24:49

-

What was it like,

24:52

you mentioned you were involved in the planning

24:53

and committees and everything.

24:55

What was it like

24:56

being on those Re-Imagining-type committees?

24:57

-

It was amazing the things that came up

25:01

and the ideas that came up

25:03

were just all over the place.

25:05

And I do remember there was a man on our committee

25:07

who,

25:12

I think was a man and wife

25:15

and they were both

25:17

maybe Episcopalians

25:19

and they both eventually dropped off.

25:22

And it was,

25:25

I was always curious about that.

25:26

What happened that made them drop off?

25:27

Did they know there was going to be a backlash?

25:30

Were they afraid

25:34

or were they just not interested?

25:35

I mean, I don't know.

25:37

-

Yeah.

This was the first.

25:38

-

The first.

-

Before the '93 conference.

25:39

-

Yeah.

-

Yeah, yes, yes.

25:41

-

Yeah, the, yeah.

The Program Committee that I joined in 1990

25:43

had these interesting people

25:47

but some of them disappeared

25:48

and you never quite knew why

25:49

they had dropped off.

25:51

-

Right.

25:52

Yeah, yeah.

25:53

-

And some of them were just always there,

25:54

no matter what.

25:56

-

There were people who were involved

25:59

pretty much the whole time,

26:00

weren't there?

26:01

-

Yeah.

Sally Hill, Pam Joern,

26:02

Marianne but she wasn't in the Twin Cities

26:04

but yeah.

26:06

Nancy Berneking, who put this together.

26:08

-

Yes.

26:11

-

And who died a long time ago, already.

26:12

-

I know.

26:15

-

Yeah.

26:15

-

Yeah.

-

Yeah.

26:16

Well, what kind of challenges did the community face

26:18

while it was in existence?

26:22

-

Well, certainly fundraising.

26:24

-

Mm-hmm.

26:27

-

To have a publication,

26:28

to pay rent on an office and a copy machine

26:30

and all those things that we had never planned on.

26:32

-

Right.

26:34

-

It was hard,

26:35

hard to raise money.

26:36

We all had to pay some money

26:38

to be members of the community.

26:40

I don't remember how much.

26:41

And some people, not me,

26:43

but some people had to do some fundraising beyond that.

26:45

And got money from,

26:48

like St. Luke Church gave some money every year

26:50

towards the ongoing community.

26:52

I don't know what other places did but,

26:54

and we had enough tie-in there

26:57

that we could do that.

26:59

I suppose the other challenge

27:05

was the women who felt frightened

27:07

and afraid to admit that they were part of this.

27:10

-

Right.

27:12

-

And they were not so likely

27:14

to be on and on-going committee.

27:15

-

Mm-hmm.

27:17

-

And some of them should have been.

27:19

Would have been,

27:20

could have been.

27:21

Would have been better if we'd had more

27:22

of these voices of people who

27:24

were afraid to be named a heretic.

27:27

-

Right.

27:31

-

A witch.

27:32

-

Yeah.

27:33

(Judy chuckles)

27:34

Yeah.

Talking about this,

27:35

I just have to ask you,

27:36

what did it feel like

27:37

to be labeled a heretic and a goddess worshiper and,

27:38

(both laugh)

27:39

-

I thought, "You've got to be kidding!

27:41

(both laugh)

27:44

"You can't really mean this, you crazy people!"

27:45

-

And why did you react that way?

27:49

(both laugh)

27:50

-

Well, it had never occurred to me

27:52

that I would be labeled as such a thing.

27:53

I mean, this sort of ordinary, run-of-the-mill Presbyterian.

27:55

(both laugh)

27:59

Never occurred to me, I'd be called a witch.

28:00

-

Yes.

28:03

-

And I mean, I,

28:04

It was hard for me to take it seriously

28:06

because I knew it was so absurd.

28:07

I knew we didn't worship a goddess.

28:10

-

Mm-hmmm, mm-hmm, yeah.

28:14

-

So as you look at it,

28:18

what aspects of Re-Imagining

28:20

were most significant to you and why?

28:21

-

Well, I would say the connections

28:27

with the women I worked with

28:29

were most significant.

28:30

The ritual and worship were most significant.

28:32

And those are the parts that continue

28:35

in my daily life

28:39

and when I create a liturgy

28:42

for something that I might be doing,

28:43

there's that feminist aspect

28:46

that always is in there,

28:48

whether anyone notices or not.

28:50

-

So would you say that Re-Imagining

28:52

really influenced the way you do liturgy?

28:53

-

Absolutely.

28:56

-

Wow.

28:57

-

Absolutely.

-

Could you say a little more about that?

28:58

What makes it feminist?

28:59

(Judy chuckles)

29:01

-

Hmm.

29:03

Well, of course, we never use the word God,

29:05

the pronoun "he" for God.

29:10

And it's amazing how people have adapted

29:14

to that, pretty well.

29:16

I remember an argument with a woman

29:18

at a church who didn't like my not using God "he".

29:23

It wasn't an argument, it was a discussion.

29:29

And she said she was really upset by this.

29:31

And I said, "Well, do you think God is really a man?"

29:33

And she said, "Well, no."

29:38

"Do you think God is a woman?"

29:42

"No."

29:45

"Well, if God is beyond male or female

29:46

"then why do we always use the pronoun he?"

29:49

And she sorta took it in

29:54

but she was troubled by it.

29:58

-

Yeah.

29:59

-

I see, well certainly in the context

30:00

where I am now at West Minister,

30:02

I don't see many people troubled

30:03

by inclusive language.

30:05

But that's certainly in everything that I do.

30:06

-

Yeah.

30:09

-

Everything.

30:10

-

And is it mostly using the term "God"

30:11

instead of he or using feminine?

30:13

Or how's it usually work out?

30:16

-

It's interesting.

30:20

I've taught my grandchildren,

30:21

when I pray with them at night,

30:23

to say the Lord's Prayer,

30:25

"Our God who art in heaven."

30:27

At St. Luke they say,

30:28

"Our Mother and Father who art in heaven"

30:29

in their worship.

30:32

We say, most of us in most context,

30:36

say, "Our Father who art in heaven"

30:39

but in my mind it's always

30:41

either "Mother and Father" or "Our God"

30:43

even if I say "Father".

30:45

-

Yes.

30:47

-

That language is always with me.

30:48

But it's also all the images of women in the Bible, though.

30:51

The mother hen protecting her chicks under her wings.

30:54

The one who brings water.

30:58

All those feminine images that people

31:00

had ignored for a long time,

31:02

hadn't even noticed were there.

31:03

-

Exactly.

31:05

Yeah.

31:06

-

There all there.

-

Yeah, they are.

31:08

-

Even in that patriarchal language and culture.

31:10

Those images are there.

31:13

I don't ever forget those.

31:17

-

And I think you're already talking about this

31:19

but I wonder if you want

31:21

to say a little bit more

31:22

about how Re-Imagining affected your view

31:23

on theology or liturgy,

31:25

the church?

31:28

-

Well the church is slow to change

31:31

but I'm happy to be in a community

31:34

that is very open to feminist theology.

31:37

I had a wonderful experience

31:43

as an interim pastor

31:45

where I was an interim associate pastor

31:49

with a woman head of staff.

31:51

And I love to put this in the record,

31:54

-

Please.

31:56

-

We used to joke

about the fact that there wasn't

31:57

even a steeple on the church,

31:59

there wasn't a phallic symbol anywhere

32:00

and we were doing just fine.

32:01

(both laugh)

32:03

-

And so that really,

32:07

the church was responsive and welcoming.

32:08

-

But it was this same church

32:12

where I had this conversation with this woman who didn't

32:13

like inclusive language.

32:15

-

Ah, yes, yeah.

-

So they adapted.

32:19

They adapted.

32:22

Now when I'm a bible study leader at West Minister,

32:23

there are still some women

32:26

who only use the male pronoun

32:27

and I don't correct them.

32:29

Somebody did once,

32:32

and I was stunned rudely.

32:34

I didn't like it.

32:36

But --

32:39

-

I think I know why, but say, why?

32:40

Why don't you correct them?

32:41

-

I think if your image of God

32:45

has always been "God he"

32:47

and you haven't figured out a way

32:49

to open up that image, then why take away

32:51

that sense of security you have for "God he"?

32:54

You're talking about an 85 year old woman

32:56

who says "God he."

32:59

Why would I change that?

33:00

I don't use that myself

33:03

but why would I correct her?

33:05

And it really was rude when this other woman

33:08

did correct her.

33:09

-

Sounds like a pastoral concern.

33:11

-

Yeah, it was.

33:12

-

Yes, yeah.

What specific contributions

33:16

do you think Re-Imagining made

33:19

to theology and liturgy?

33:20

-

I think it changed the whole world.

33:23

I really do.

33:26

You know, I can really only speak to how it changed things

33:29

in the Progressive Presbyterian Churches.

33:32

But I know that the ripples were much wider than that.

33:35

I don't know what really, ultimately happened

33:39

with the Methodists.

33:41

I think it made it easier

33:42

for gay and lesbian people to be,

33:46

to feel part of the church.

33:48

I think that was one of the things

33:50

that was nudged open by Re-Imagining.

33:52

Now, probably trans-gender people,

33:57

that same kind of opening

34:00

I think is there for trans-gender people.

34:01

We have a seminary student at West Minister

34:03

who considers herself "Z"

34:04

which I hadn't heard before.

34:06

-

Yeah, yeah.

34:08

And so despite the backlash.

34:10

-

Despite the backlash.

34:12

-

It still moved things forward.

34:14

-

It did.

34:15

Absolutely, moved things forward.

34:16

-

Yeah, yeah.

34:17

So looking back on it,

34:21

what do you think is the greatest legacy of Re-Imagining?

34:22

-

The greatest legacy is

34:30

that a lot of people had figured out

34:32

that women can do theology.

34:34

From a female point of view.

34:37

From a point of view of a person with a uterus.

34:38

-

Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

34:41

Yes, yeah.

34:42

-

I think that's it.

34:44

I think that's the bottom line.

34:45

-

Right.

34:47

-

And not only can do theology,

34:48

but need to do theology

34:49

cause so much has been done

34:52

just from a male point of view

34:54

in our Christian history.

34:56

And all of our theology

35:01

until rather recently was all done by men

35:03

who never thought about what it was like

35:05

to be created in the Divine Image with a uterus.

35:07

-

Mm-hmm, exactly.

35:10

Yeah.

35:13

So what does Re-Imagining mean today?

35:14

And I don't just mean the Re-Imagining Community

35:17

but what do you see needs to be re-imagined

35:18

in the church, in society?

35:21

-

Well, there's still a lot

35:23

that needs re-imaging.

35:25

-

Yes, yeah.

-

There's still a lot.

35:26

I wish the words of institution

35:31

for our communion service were.

35:35

I wish we could take out the blood of Christ part of that,

35:39

that could be re-imaged in a much better way.

35:43

I tend to fudge when I do communion.

35:48

I don't like to use those words,

35:51

even to say "the cup of the new covenant

35:54

"in Christ's blood."

35:59

I don't think that's really very helpful.

36:02

-

Yeah,

36:04

say some more about that.

36:05

-

to saved people.

Those images of Christ's blood,

36:08

I understand were very important

36:11

in the beginning of the Church

36:15

and then there's the weird part

36:18

about the Catholics thinking that that was,

36:19

becomes literally Christ's blood.

36:22

I mean, that's creepy to me.

36:24

And I know other cultures

36:27

that have been involved in blood

36:28

and

36:31

drinking the blood of the whatever,

36:34

and it's creepy.

36:36

And I think it's hard for my children's generation

36:38

to get their head around that at all.

36:44

And so, thinking, "Well, this sounds like canibalism to me."

36:46

So I wish we could,

36:51

I really wish we could change that part of it.

36:52

-

Could I ask then,

36:55

this sounds really interesting.

36:56

So re-imagining that the,

36:57

for example the Eucharist,

36:59

what does a re-imagined Eucharist look like?

37:00

-

I don't know.

37:02

I haven't tried to create that,

37:04

but I think it could be done.

37:06

I think it could be done.

37:09

I'll think about that some more.

37:12

-

Good, good.

37:13

I have a really specific question

37:14

for you.

37:16

-

Okay.

-

And you already know about this,

37:17

that we're working on the website.

37:18

-

Right.

37:19

-

And I'm just trying to get ideas from people

37:20

about what would be helpful to have in it,

37:22

and how we could spread the word,

37:24

who would benefit from it.

37:26

Any suggestions, ideas you have,

37:27

we're eager to hear them.

37:29

-

It would be lovely if Pam Carter Joern's play

37:32

were on the website.

37:37

-

Great idea.

37:40

-

And

37:41

now I've forgotten,

37:44

which one.

37:45

There was one called,

37:46

"I've prayed 'Our Father' for too long."

37:47

-

Yes, it was "Simple,"

37:49

was it "Simple Gifts,"

37:51

The 1993 one?

37:52

-

Yeah.

-

About the Shakers?

37:54

-

Yeah.

37:55

-

Yeah, yeah, yes.

The one you're thinking of?

37:56

-

Yeah.

-

Yes.

37:58

-

But also the one before that,

37:59

I though she wrote.

38:01

Maybe someone else wrote it,

38:01

called "I prayed 'Our Father' for too long"

38:02

but I went to it with my husband,

38:05

my ex-husband, and another couple.

38:06

We two women were both crying at the end of it

38:10

and both of our husbands were looking at us like,

38:15

"What's the deal?"

38:17

They didn't get it at all, either one of them.

38:19

They both became ex-husbands.

38:22

-

Yes.

38:26

-

So, yes.

38:27

The things that Pam has written

38:28

have been so pivotal, I think, to the whole movement.

38:30

And I think as much of that

38:33

as we can on the website as possible,

38:34

would be wonderful.

38:36

-

That's a great idea.

People haven't mentioned that before

38:38

but I think you're right, absolutely.

38:39

Good.

38:43

-

And I think it would be fine to put on the website

38:43

about my testimony

38:45

about if the church hadn't re-imagined itself,

38:46

it would have died out as a group of Jewish fishermen.

38:48

-

Mm-hmm. Good, good.

38:51

Yes!

38:52

(both laugh)

38:53

-

That's my favorite line ever.

38:54

-

It is.

38:54

That is great.

38:55

-

Absolutely.

38:56

-

Well, Judy, is there anything we

38:59

haven't talked about that you would like to add?

39:00

-

I would like to add

39:20

that I'm grateful for the backlash.

39:23

-

Oh, say some more about that.

39:25

-

Because it allowed us to continue

39:26

and to keep growing and learning

39:30

and expanding our vision of what was,

39:32

what's in this created world for us.

39:35

-

Mm-hmm.

39:37

-

So I look back and I think,

39:39

"Thank God there are all those people who were upset

39:41

and made us continue."

39:46

Cause we really had to.

39:49

-

Yes.

39:50

That's great.

39:52

And a great place to end,

39:54

I think.

39:55

-

Okay.

-

Thank you, so much.

39:56

Kim, Judith

Transcript

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Sallie Bingham Center for Women's History & Culture