Bass, Diana Butler / Re-Imagining Collection / Duke Digital Repository

-

Okay.

0:00

Well Diana thank you so much for being interviewed.

0:04

I just need some background information

0:06

if you could say your name.

0:09

-

Diana Butler Bass.

0:10

-

Thank you and are you lay or clergy?

0:11

-

I'm a lay person.

0:13

-

And what denomination do you associate with?

0:15

-

Probably Episcopalian

0:17

-

Thank you, where and when were you born Diana?

0:18

-

Baltimore, Maryland 1959.

0:21

-

Hey.

0:23

-

Too long ago.

0:24

(both laugh)

0:25

-

Same year as me okay.

0:27

-

And my daughter always says you were born

0:28

in the 50s?

0:31

And I say just barely, just barely.

0:32

-

Just barely exactly. (laughs)

0:34

So where did you go to school?

0:35

-

College and beyond?

0:41

-

Yes.

0:42

-

Okay so college I went to Westmont College

0:43

which is an Evangelical college

0:45

in Santa Barbara of California.

0:47

Then I went to Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary

0:48

in South Hamilton, Massachusetts

0:51

and got my PhD at Duke University.

0:53

-

Wonderful and what work or ministry

0:55

were you doing at the time of Re-Imagining 93

0:58

you were there at the 96.

1:01

-

I was a college professor.

1:03

And I was working on the sideline doing a weekly column

1:04

for the New York Times Syndicate

1:09

on religion and American culture.

1:11

So, when I was actually at Re-Imagining in Minneapolis,

1:13

I was teaching as a visiting professor for a year

1:18

at Macalester College in St. Paul.

1:22

-

Wonderful.

1:24

-

Yeah it was a great year.

-

So what were you teaching there?

1:25

-

I was teaching religious studies.

1:26

I was doing American religion.

1:28

I think I was actually doing a class on women in religion

1:31

if I remember correctly and church history

1:34

and a class in reformation.

1:37

So it was a sort of a large scale church history

1:38

with a specialization in American religion.

1:42

-

Great and what

1:45

-

And I also did a class on Evangelicalism

1:47

while at Macalester.

1:49

-

Did you?

1:49

-

Yeah.

1:50

-

That's great.

1:51

-

Which was fascinating cause the kids were so liberal

1:52

and nobody had ever taught a class

1:55

on American Evangelicalism and they

1:58

really were engaged in it as a religious phenomenon.

1:59

And they always wanted to argue about it

2:05

so it was a great year.

2:06

-

What an interesting experience for you too

2:09

to get that reaction.

2:10

-

It was.

2:12

(both laugh)

2:12

Especially after I taught at Westmont.

2:13

-

Exactly yeah.

2:14

Wow kind of opposite poles.

2:16

-

It was very much so.

2:18

-

And what work or ministry did you do after Re-Imagining?

2:19

-

I was still a college professor

2:22

and I got a full-time tenure track job at Rhodes College

2:25

where I was for three years.

2:30

And then after that I basically left

2:32

formal academia and have become a full-time author.

2:34

-

Wonderful.

2:38

Now you have a very interesting religious background.

2:39

I would like to know when and where

2:42

you first became aware of feminist theology.

2:44

-

Oh my.

2:47

-

Well I was born and raised in the United Methodist Church

2:48

and became enamored over part of however you want to say it

2:52

the Evangelical community.

2:56

When I was 15 years old living in Scottsdale, Arizona

2:58

and it was just,

3:02

it was the 70s.

3:05

(interviewer laughs)

3:06

What can I say?

3:07

That's always my excuse it was the 70s

3:08

and mainline churches were kind of boring.

3:09

And if you had an active interest in faith

3:13

in the 1970s, chances were pretty good

3:17

if you were a teenager you'd wind up in Evangelicalism.

3:19

And so that's what I wound up doing religiously

3:22

is that I understood myself to have been born again.

3:26

And I went to a very conservative Evangelical church.

3:30

And so it was not there that I learned

3:34

(both laugh)

3:36

it was not there that I learned about Evangelical feminism

3:38

or Christian feminism at all.

3:40

I went on from the high school experience

3:43

of the feminist church to Westmont College as a student.

3:46

And so I was there between 1977 and 1981.

3:51

And it's interesting because that's

3:56

when I learned about Christian feminism

3:58

was at Westmont

4:00

-

Tell me how did that happen?

4:01

-

Well it actually happened because Christian feminism

4:03

was sort of in the news as it were

4:07

even though it hadn't gotten in the news

4:10

to my Evangelical church in Scottsdale, Arizona.

4:12

I don't remember what year it was that Letty Russell

4:15

or that Letha Scanzoni and Nancy Hardesty

4:20

wrote All We're Meant To Be

4:23

which was kind of the shot across the bow

4:24

for Evangelicals introducing them to the idea

4:29

of feminist theology.

4:32

And Nancy and Letha were arguing that

4:35

both the Bible and church history pointed

4:37

toward Evangelical women being feminists.

4:40

And there were people at Westmont in the 1970s

4:45

who were brave enough to point that out.

4:49

And

4:51

-

These are faculty members?

4:52

-

I think that,

4:54

I'm trying to remember now

4:58

whether I first heard of that book from a faculty member

4:59

or in chapel.

5:02

Because we had a very open even what you might

5:05

want to call progressive chaplain.

5:09

He was very Evangelical but he loved Jim Wallace.

5:12

He loved what was then called The Other Side magazine

5:16

which was this very radical Evangelical magazine.

5:19

He was being influenced by folks who would later become

5:23

incredibly famous Theologians in their own right.

5:27

Then the young Theologian by the name of Ched Myers

5:30

who has become a major sort of environmental

5:33

activist justice person who was very involved

5:36

in liberation movements in the 1970s.

5:42

So mostly it was the chaplain's office

5:45

that was putting these sorts of alternative

5:50

very edgy ideas in front of us

5:52

about liberation theologies

5:56

of all sorts about environmentalism.

5:58

And I think it was probably there

6:01

that we somehow got introduced to Christian feminism.

6:04

And then there was one professor who was a pretty young guy.

6:07

His name was Kirk Whiteman and he had just

6:11

gotten out of graduate school.

6:14

So he was the one who was like cutting his teeth

6:16

and was certainly willing to engage all these issues

6:20

that were talking about in chapel.

6:23

The other professors were not very excited.

6:25

(Both laugh)

6:27

If I remember correctly they were like what.

6:28

We didn't really want to talk about these issues

6:30

but the students were pushing.

6:32

-

Yes, do you remember how did you react Diana?

6:35

-

Oh I was excited.

6:37

-

Yeah.

6:39

-

I was

6:40

because it made sense and I was really thrilled

6:41

that there was a history of Evangelical women

6:46

and it wasn't just all about men.

6:50

And I think it also resonated in some interesting way

6:53

with my Methodist childhood.

6:56

-

Can you say in what way do you think?

6:58

-

Well the thing was true about the Methodism

7:00

that I grew up with.

7:03

Even though it was somewhat spiritually cold

7:05

or maybe a little nominal even by the time

7:08

I was a Methodist kid what we had retained

7:12

was the interest in social justice that Wesley

7:17

certainly had.

7:18

And we knew that somehow,

7:20

at least I got the message somehow

7:22

that piety and social justice should be connected.

7:24

Even though I never really saw that connection.

7:27

But I heard the social justice messages

7:31

and when I was a little kid living in Baltimore

7:34

we had pastors who got in trouble

7:39

about preaching against the Vietnam War.

7:40

And we also had pastors who got in trouble

7:44

for saying nice things about Civil Rights Movement

7:46

about Martin Luther King.

7:48

And so I remember how those things

7:50

made the grown-ups in the Methodist Church really upset.

7:53

And so I thought they were particularly interesting.

7:55

-

Of course.

7:58

(both laugh)

7:59

So when I got to college and there was all of a sudden

7:59

this sort of heritage that I had not been taught

8:04

in the Evangelical Church or my teenage years

8:07

about justice and the Bible

8:10

and God being on the side of the poor.

8:14

And I was in college when Oscar Romero was shot

8:16

and that was a big, big freaking deal.

8:19

The denominations were just at the point

8:25

where they, I think like the Episcopal church

8:28

had just ordained women as clergy.

8:31

And the Presbyterians had women clergy

8:33

but they were coming into a more prominent position

8:36

and the Methodist hadn't had women clergy

8:38

for very long.

8:40

So all these things were sort of pressing

8:44

at the Christian community

8:45

and we had somehow we weren't isolated from that

8:47

as Evangelicals.

8:51

And there was a group of people that I went to college with

8:53

who really embraced it.

8:54

As a matter of fact, we had when I was in college,

8:58

an alternative dorm where people who were interested

9:03

in things like being vegetarians

9:07

and doing social justice projects in Mexico

9:10

and who wanted to think about what it meant

9:15

to be global Christians.

9:19

Where we lived together and we actually

9:20

had a rule of life where we followed

9:22

a little Benedictine rule of life.

9:24

-

Really?

9:25

-

Yeah I mean it was kind of remarkable.

9:26

It's a sort of a,

9:28

that period of the 70s, there was this very edgy,

9:30

very excited

9:34

social justice form of Evangelicalism

9:40

that was being like I said sort of manifested

9:42

by some of our elders.

9:45

I think Jim Wallace is probably the most

9:47

well known name of a person who had been leading.

9:50

But he was 10 years older than we were.

9:53

And so he felt like an old guy.

9:56

(both laugh)

9:58

But yeah we were reading everything he ever wrote.

10:01

And we read Sojourners and we were reading,

10:03

I remember reading the first newsletters

10:06

of like the Evangelical Women's Caucus.

10:09

And the articles in Christianity Today that were reporting

10:12

on the controversies over All We're Meant To Be.

10:16

-

Yeah.

10:19

-

And so all that stuff was part of my universe

10:21

as a sophomore, junior and senior in college

10:24

at this Evangelical college.

10:27

And there was probably a group of maybe

10:28

oh I don't know probably 40 of us

10:33

that were really in leadership around these issues.

10:35

And most of those people, one of the guys

10:40

who was sort of in that coterie of people,

10:43

a guy named David Batstone who later on founded

10:46

a human trafficking organization.

10:49

And is a very well known liberation theologian.

10:51

There was myself, there was an amazing women

10:56

by the name of Kathleen Corley

10:59

who is world class.

11:01

A New Testament scholar who's written mostly on women

11:03

in the New Testament.

11:07

Just it was a fascinating group of people.

11:09

Phil Clayton who is a process theologian and justice guy

11:14

in environmentalism and teaches at Clermont now.

11:19

And so we were all Westmont students together.

11:20

And we all cared about these issues.

11:24

And we were encouraging one another to go deeper

11:27

and try to figure out what faith

11:31

was really going to mean to people in the late 20th

11:35

and the early 21st Century.

11:39

If being a Christian mattered to the kind

11:41

of change to make the universe a more loving place.

11:45

-

That is fascinating and boy I can see the seeds

11:51

and the trajectory you have followed from there.

11:53

-

Yeah really I've written about it just a little bit.

11:55

It comes up in Christianity After Religion.

11:57

I tell a couple of stories about that community

12:02

but it's also a lot more strongly written about

12:05

in Strength For The Journey which was the first

12:07

trade book that I ever wrote.

12:10

And you know I think since I wrote

12:12

Strength For The Journey that was almost that was like

12:14

15 years ago, 17 years ago now.

12:17

I've realized the real germination of my adulthood

12:22

in that community of people back at Westmont.

12:29

And also very appreciative of the way

12:31

that it wasn't just me.

12:34

It was really these other people.

12:35

And over the years many of us have reconnected.

12:38

And to see where people have gone

12:42

and

12:44

one of the women, well she was a little bit

12:47

older than us.

12:49

I thinK she graduated when I,

12:50

she was like a senior when I was a freshman.

12:51

Her name is Bear Ride and her sister

12:54

was Sally Ride.

12:56

-

Oh my goodness.

12:58

-

And Bear wound up being one of the first ever

12:59

out lesbian pastors of a PCUSA church

13:01

in southern California.

13:06

And she went on to Clermont.

13:08

And so these are Westmont people.

13:11

And so all of us felt really kind of funny.

13:13

In years since, very few of us have

13:17

ever gone to a Westmont reunion.

13:18

(both laugh)

13:20

Cause they don't really want to talk to us.

13:22

I mean I think that they've never published anything

13:25

about any of these people's work.

13:27

-

Seriously?

13:31

-

Yeah we've been kind of banished

13:32

from the institutional memory.

13:33

But the memory of the place and those people

13:36

and those really interesting days

13:39

and how heavy and passionate and powerful they were

13:41

has shaped a surprising sort of undertow

13:45

in contemporary liberal Protestantism. (laughs)

13:50

Who would have thought it?

13:55

(both laugh)

13:56

I know really.

13:57

-

Boy the spirit does amazing things.

13:59

-

No I don't know how good they did

14:01

on creating Evangelical megachurch pastors

14:02

(interviewer laughs)

14:05

but Westmont did a fair, handsome job

14:06

creating feminists, Liberationists and Panantheists

14:08

and process Theologians.

14:12

(both laugh)

14:13

-

I love it.

14:14

-

So they're good at it.

14:16

(interviewer laughs)

14:17

But they don't let anybody know.

14:18

(interviewer laughs)

14:19

-

You're telling the story though.

14:20

So to move to Re-Imagining you were at the 1996

14:22

-

I was.

14:24

-

Re-Imagining which was about power and Letty Russell.

14:25

First of all, what brought you there?

14:28

You were at Macalester.

14:30

-

Right I was at Macalester as a,

14:31

you know like I said my side job was writing

14:33

for the New York Times Syndicate at that moment.

14:35

And so every week I had to get a column out

14:39

about religion and culture.

14:41

And I'd always been sort of fascinated

14:43

about what was going on with Re-Imagining.

14:45

I mean that was my job, paying attention

14:46

to what was going on in American Christianity.

14:48

-

Exactly.

14:51

-

And so I knew that they were in trouble

14:52

and I knew that they were very controversial.

14:54

And I, by that point in time,

14:59

I was pretty out and committed about feminism.

15:02

But I think I still had some of this sort

15:08

of Evangelical stuff kind of pulling me back.

15:11

And I was sort of wondering well maybe these

15:16

women really have gone too far.

15:19

I mean there was part of me that really

15:21

wondered did they really deserve it.

15:23

Maybe they're really obnoxious.

15:24

And so I wanted to see it for myself.

15:26

I wanted to witness history.

15:32

I was curious about what my own response would be.

15:34

So there was a personal piece to it.

15:38

But then I just knew it would be a good column.

15:39

-

Yeah.

15:42

-

You know it was news worthy,

15:43

people cared about it and I told my editor

15:44

I was going to go and he said oh that's great.

15:47

And in 1996, I'd written about Promise Keepers.

15:49

I had written about the Republican National Convention.

15:53

So I was really kind of looking

15:57

at those big ticket, public controversy issues.

16:00

And a lot of them were related to gender.

16:05

So this just seemed like it was in a continued flow

16:07

from those columns that I had already written that year.

16:11

And they were in town, perfect, so I went.

16:14

-

And I know it's been a long time

16:20

but what do you remember.

16:21

-

20 years.

16:23

-

I know, we're coming up on the yup 25th anniversary.

16:24

-

1993.

16:26

-

What were the actual dates?

16:27

-

1993 was the first one, you were at the 96,

16:28

the community lasted until 2003.

16:31

-

Okay.

16:34

-

So 2018 will be the 25th anniversary

16:35

of the first one.

16:36

-

So this was in Fall of 96.

16:37

-

It was, it was exactly.

16:38

So what do you remember about that conference

16:40

and your reaction?

16:44

I'd love to hear that.

16:45

-

The two things that stand out in most of my memory

16:45

were one Heather Elkins Murray

16:51

who got up and did a academic, sort of presentation.

16:54

But it was more than that, it was almost like a sermon too

17:00

on milk and honey being the original, sort of

17:04

how Christians use milk and honey

17:09

as eucharistic elements in the early church.

17:12

And I can actually remember, I was sitting

17:15

in the back of the room with the media.

17:16

See this is one of the parts of my life

17:19

at that moment, so I was always

17:20

in the back of the room.

17:22

And I was with other people who were media people

17:24

and so they were supposed to be skeptics.

17:26

I have some very funny Promise Keeper stories about that.

17:29

(Both laugh)

17:32

-

I bet you do.

17:34

-

I really do actually.

17:35

But so here I was in the back of the room

17:37

and I was with the rest of the media people.

17:38

And I was kind of the big rank media person

17:41

cause I was working for the New York Times.

17:43

And there was somebody from the Startrib

17:47

and there was I think a Christian Century person.

17:50

And the person from IRD

17:53

Institute of Religion Democracy was there.

17:55

And there were some denominational press people as well.

17:58

So I was in the back and I was watching

18:04

Heather give this speech/sermon.

18:06

And it was brilliant.

18:11

I, she was just,

18:18

I mean as an academic what I knew is she was right.

18:19

And I had never really heard anybody

18:23

approach early church liturgy in quite the way that she did.

18:26

But she was approaching it through

18:31

the lands of the Bible.

18:33

She was very faithful to the textual evidence

18:35

and I can just sort of remember feeling this kind of

18:39

oh my gosh what is so controversial about this.

18:43

That was my inner territory

18:49

was I knew it was academic, I knew it was correct.

18:54

I knew she had done her homework.

18:58

It was beautifully presented.

19:00

And it was presented not in the kind of in your face

19:03

sort of stereotype angry feminist sort of thing.

19:07

It was a really smart woman telling the truth

19:13

about her research.

19:16

And doing it in a way that had a sense of passion

19:19

and meaning about it.

19:23

And I just sat there and I thought

19:26

this is nothing like I have heard

19:28

from the rest of the media.

19:30

And I thought, I kept thinking

19:34

over and over again I kept thinking what in the world

19:36

could possibly be controversial

19:38

about talking about early church history.

19:40

-

Exactly, yeah.

19:42

-

And that was my big response.

19:44

And she was, for whatever reason,

19:47

the speaker I remember the best.

19:49

And there were some pretty big name speakers,

19:52

like I had forgotten Letty Russell was there.

19:53

(interviewer laughs)

19:55

Sorry Letty.

19:56

I think I went to hear Letty Russel

19:58

but then the big surprise was this speech by Heather.

20:00

And I think it was because I was just so personally

20:04

impacted by it because here was another person

20:06

who was a church historian.

20:09

And I knew we were speaking such the same language.

20:11

And I also knew that she was so deeply committed

20:16

to the church.

20:18

And so anyway I listened

20:21

and I was impressed

20:24

and I talked to her afterwards and I thought

20:27

it was pretty amazing.

20:31

So that was the piece of the conference

20:33

in terms of the presentations

20:36

that I remember the best.

20:38

The other piece of the conference

20:41

that I remember really well was again

20:42

here I was sitting in the back.

20:45

And they did a liturgy of milk and honey

20:46

that was kind of a follow-up, I believe

20:49

to her speech.

20:52

And so it was this kind of eucharistic celebration.

20:53

And

20:58

people were dancing in the room.

21:01

And

21:03

it was cool.

21:05

(both laugh)

21:08

And I remember feeling like I wanted to dance too

21:09

but I wasn't allowed to dance

21:12

cause you know when you're in the media

21:13

and so you're not allowed to dance.

21:15

And so I didn't dance.

21:17

But on every table they had a centerpiece

21:19

and part of the centerpiece were these apples.

21:24

And when people were dancing around the room,

21:29

they had picked up these little apples

21:32

and they were like dancing around

21:34

and it's just way kind of like in your face Eve

21:35

kind of thing.

21:38

-

Yes.

21:39

-

And I just, I was laughing so hard,

21:39

I thought it was beautiful, it was energizing.

21:42

It was kind of just this glorious kind of

21:44

spiritual and emotive revolt against

21:47

the traditional reading of Eve

21:52

and it was so happy that while they were dancing

21:55

around the room I snuck up to a table

21:58

and I took the apple.

22:00

And that apple has hung on my Christmas tree

22:02

as a Christmas tree ornament every single year.

22:05

And after my daughter was born

22:09

and she got to be old enough

22:11

and I pull out the apple.

22:12

And I tell her the story

22:14

-

Oh Diana.

22:16

-

of stealing the apple.

22:17

(interviewer laughs)

22:19

-

I'm so glad you did.

22:20

-

I'm stealing this apple from the table

22:21

at Re-Imagining after I realized that Eve

22:23

a hero of the story.

22:26

And that women should never feel out of place

22:29

in Christian community because we've always

22:32

had a place at the table.

22:36

And so that has become a kind of a family ritual.

22:38

And I do that still every year.

22:42

Every time I take those ornaments out

22:45

and I see that I get this

22:48

tender, amazing feeling

22:52

about that day and Heather's speech

22:55

and the milk and the honey

22:58

and the reclaiming of Eve.

22:59

And seeing all those women dancing around the room

23:00

and not being able to join them

23:03

but joining them in my heart by stealing the apple. (laughs)

23:04

-

Oh that is so fantastic.

23:07

-

And it's best but those are my sort of two

23:10

big memories.

23:13

-

Yes.

23:15

-

So it was very personal

23:17

and there was a kind of a freeing that went on

23:18

for me there

23:21

that I didn't know that I really needed.

23:23

But that did occur.

23:25

Even though I was not really supposed

23:27

to express that because of the role that I had that day.

23:28

But then there was also this just sort of puzzlement.

23:33

I mean really just deep puzzlement

23:35

as a professional

23:38

-

Yes.

23:39

-

that I didn't understand why these women

23:41

were upsetting other people so much.

23:45

Because it just seemed to me like it was good scholarship.

23:46

-

So what is your theory?

23:50

Do you have an idea about what accounts for that backlash?

23:51

Do you have any ideas about what it came from?

23:55

-

The strangest moment I think of the whole,

23:58

the whole episode for me,

24:03

after I'd felt so personally moved

24:06

and I thought that Heather's speech

24:09

was so completely convincing.

24:11

That I went out to lunch with another person

24:14

who was in the media.

24:17

And I had forgotten her name

24:19

until you just reminded me of it, Kirsten I guess.

24:21

-

Right.

24:24

Katherine Kirsten.

24:25

-

Katherine Kirsten

24:26

who I never met her before

24:28

and she seemed like she really wanted to talk.

24:30

And I believe she was an Episcopalian.

24:33

-

Oh okay.

24:34

-

So I think that we shared that

24:35

I mean if my memory serves me correctly

24:37

which it might not after all these years.

24:39

But she was nice and she seemed like

24:42

she was taking good notes.

24:43

And she was really interested in what was going on.

24:45

And so we went out for lunch and we talked about it

24:47

and I shared with her how basically

24:50

what I was going to write and how impressed

24:53

I was with the scholarship.

24:55

And you know that I was really worried a bit

24:58

at that point still about the Episcopal church

25:02

was not dealing with gay and lesbian stuff.

25:06

But there were a lot of people really angry

25:09

in the Episcopal church about the recent consecration

25:10

of Barbara Harris as the first woman bishop.

25:14

And so the Episcopal church was sort of reeling from this

25:18

because even the people who

25:22

might have been somewhat resistant to women's' ordination

25:25

had put up with it as long as there

25:27

were no women bishops.

25:29

Because the idea that the bishop holds authority

25:31

and that Barbara Harris as bishop

25:34

would hold authority over men,

25:36

was very worrisome to the conservatives

25:39

in the Episcopal church.

25:41

And so what was happening,

25:43

at least for Episcopalians is that Re-Imagining

25:44

was playing into this great achievement

25:47

of Barbara Harris being elected

25:52

as a woman bishop.

25:55

And the whole of the Anglican Communion,

25:57

I believe Barbara was the first elected

26:00

but the second consecrated

26:03

because New Zealand snuck in there.

26:05

(interviewer laughs)

26:07

And after Barbara I think was elected

26:08

they elected somebody and then consecrated

26:10

her before Barbara was consecrated.

26:12

Or something like that.

26:14

But within a year, the Anglican Communion

26:14

globally had two female bishops.

26:18

And this had conservatives going crazy.

26:20

And so here was Re-Imagining for Episcopalians

26:26

sneaking along side of this shift in pastoral authority.

26:30

And they're thinking oh my god is this,

26:36

are we going to be doing eucharis with milk and honey next.

26:38

And are people going to be dancing in our aisles

26:42

which would be horror for Episcopalians.

26:44

(both laugh)

26:46

People dancing oh my god in church.

26:48

(interviewer laughs)

26:48

And I think a lot of people were really horrified

26:50

by the reinterpretation of the Bible,

26:56

what they saw as reinterpretation of the Bible.

26:57

Instead of I mean what's been going in scholarship

27:01

of course is a deep re-engagement with the text

27:04

as we find better text,

27:07

as we have more historical evidence

27:09

about what the early church was like.

27:10

As we understand more about ancient Greece and Rome

27:12

and gender issues and sexuality

27:15

and all this sort of stuff.

27:18

And so the idea with conservatives is that

27:19

truth is truth once delivered.

27:22

And all of this scholarship was upsetting

27:25

what they understood to be the truth.

27:29

So that was upsetting.

27:32

And they thought Re-Imagining was part of that

27:33

what they call revisionism.

27:35

And then in their churches

27:39

there was a lot of fear about the authority

27:42

of a female bishop or even worse I suppose,

27:44

from their point-of-view getting a female clergy person

27:47

in their own parish.

27:51

And there were plenty of parishes that would

27:53

never, I mean there still are parishes now 20 years later

27:56

that still have not had women.

27:59

So all of that was coming to bare on this.

28:01

And so anyway,

28:04

Katherine and I had lunch together.

28:06

And we talked about all this stuff

28:08

about the conference and about what

28:11

was going on with global Anglicanism.

28:12

And I thought we had a good conversation.

28:15

And then whatever it was two weeks later,

28:17

my piece had been published

28:21

through the New York Times Syndicate.

28:22

And her piece had been published wherever

28:24

it had been published in the

28:26

Institute of Religion Democracy's letter or whatever it was.

28:26

And they were exactly the opposite.

28:30

It was literally like we had been in two different rooms

28:32

and had never had any conversation at all.

28:35

-

So she never gave you a clue

28:39

of what her reaction was when you had

28:40

-

No.

28:42

-

Wow.

28:43

-

She was like a cipher.

28:43

-

Ahh.

28:44

-

And not only was she like a cipher

28:45

but she was asking me questions, she kept saying

28:46

well is this what is going on in academia.

28:48

And I was like saying, in this very sort

28:52

of enthusiastic way that I have,

28:54

(interviewer laughs)

28:56

which is always how I am.

28:57

-

Yes.

28:58

-

I was like well yeah you know there was this amazing

28:59

sort of set of discoveries

29:02

about women's roles in the early church.

29:05

And there's this new archeological evidence

29:07

and there's this kind of, we're re-thinking

29:09

about there's textual evidence

29:12

and there's all this stuff that's going on

29:14

with coptic studies.

29:16

And so that's not my area of expertise

29:18

but I have great friends.

29:20

I was telling you Kathleen Corley's name

29:23

for example.

29:24

Kathleen was one of my best friends

29:26

while we were all in this period of time together

29:28

from college and seminary and graduate school onward.

29:32

I lost track with her a little bit in recent years.

29:35

But she and I would talk about this stuff

29:37

and that's her area.

29:40

-

Yeah.

29:42

-

And it was just amazing to me

29:42

what was going on in New Testament studies around gender.

29:45

Since my PhD is in Theology and church history,

29:49

I'm smart enough to know what that's all about.

29:52

And so I was telling this in this wonderful way,

29:56

you know exciting biography and showing how

29:59

Heather's point-of-view was right in line

30:02

with the way that we are moving and understanding

30:05

the deep history of the Bible.

30:09

And I thought she understood me.

30:13

-

Wow.

30:15

-

I mean I thought, what I thought it was

30:16

was having a conversation with a reporter

30:18

who didn't have the same background that I had

30:21

and that she wanted to be educated about a subject.

30:24

And then when I got to the other side of it,

30:27

actually it appears, when you lay the articles

30:29

side by side, it appears that she was actually

30:33

sort of fishing around to try to find out

30:35

how I was a heretic.

30:37

-

Yes.

30:39

-

And I don't believe she mentioned me by name.

30:40

-

She did not.

30:43

-

Cause that would have been really unprofessional.

30:43

-

Yeah.

30:45

-

Because you're not supposed to do that

30:46

to another journalist.

30:49

-

And I even mentioned her in my article.

30:51

-

Right.

30:53

-

But that conversation between us did happen.

30:54

And like I said I was really shocked afterwards

30:57

to see that it was literally like two people

30:59

had not even been in the same room together.

31:03

She saw something so entirely different than I saw.

31:05

-

That's amazing.

31:08

-

It was amazing.

31:09

-

Yeah

31:10

-

It was kind of a lesson in post modernism.

31:11

-

Exactly, exactly.

31:13

(Diana laughs)

31:14

-

It was a perspective and what you bring into

31:16

a room really does account for

31:19

an amazing amount of journalistic interpretation.

31:23

-

Yeah exactly.

31:26

I loved your article in the New York Times.

31:29

You said so many good things.

31:31

And there's a quote.

31:32

And I know it's been a long time

31:33

but I wondered if you could react to this.

31:34

You wrote for the first time,

31:36

I could imagine the power of Christianity

31:37

fully inclusive of women.

31:39

Does that spark any memories or any reactions?

31:41

-

Yeah I think that was the dancing.

31:44

(both laugh)

31:45

-

Was it?

31:46

I love it.

31:47

-

I really do I think it was that liturgy

31:48

because I had never seen a liturgy

31:50

that was all women before.

31:51

-

Yeah.

31:54

-

I had been in Episcopal church

31:55

where there had been women presiding over the table.

31:57

And I had even I think by that time

32:01

probably been in a church when it had been all

32:03

women presiding, like a priest, maybe a deacon.

32:06

And the readers that day were all women,

32:09

you know for some quirky reason.

32:12

But in those settings,

32:15

there were still a lot of men around.

32:16

-

Yes.

32:18

-

And even if there was no man up front

32:19

there were the men in the congregation,

32:21

the ushers and the Sunday school teachers.

32:22

So I'd never been in a liturgy

32:25

that was written by, presided over by

32:27

and participated in all by women.

32:31

And that was the piece that was so powerful

32:33

that I stole the apple off the table.

32:36

(interviewer laughs)

32:38

And wrote that really nice line. (laughs)

32:39

-

You did, oh my goodness.

32:41

-

But I didn't talk about stealing the apple in the article.

32:42

-

No, so I'm so glad that I know that.

32:44

-

Well now it's in the background.

32:47

-

Yes it's public, it's great and it's so important.

32:48

-

And if anybody every finds it amongst my remains

32:51

(interviewer laughs)

32:53

bury me with the apple.

32:54

(both laugh)

32:55

-

Oh I love it.

32:57

There were so many great lines.

32:59

There's another quote you gave

33:01

that I wanted to know how you would reflect on now.

33:02

Feminist theology and liturgical reform

33:04

was officially banished in the margins

33:06

of American main line Protestantism.

33:08

What would you say now about that?

33:11

-

Yeah that's a great, that's really interesting

33:13

because back then that's how it felt

33:15

because those women for everything they were doing

33:19

that was so smart and so powerful and so beautiful

33:22

they were losing their jobs.

33:25

-

Exactly.

33:26

-

And the other thing that was horrifying to me

33:27

is that people were not paying attention to my article,

33:30

they were paying attention to Katherine's article.

33:37

And Heather got into real trouble after that conference.

33:40

And I don't believe she lost her job.

33:46

-

She did not.

33:48

-

But that she was under great pressure.

33:50

-

She was.

33:52

-

And nobody ever asked me what I saw there.

33:52

But instead they used Katherine's article

33:59

as evidence against her.

34:03

And that really hurt me.

34:05

And I remember I believe,

34:06

it'd be interesting to see if Heather remembers this or not.

34:09

I met Heather again on the other side

34:13

on a couple of different occasions.

34:17

But I do believe I called her up

34:18

when I heard that she was in trouble

34:22

and I just commiserated with her.

34:24

And I said I can't believe that this is going on.

34:26

Because from what I saw everything you

34:30

said and did was perfectly

34:33

within the parameters of orthodoxy.

34:34

And that's really what was shocking to me at the time

34:37

is that I couldn't see how anything she did

34:39

deviated from orthodoxy.

34:45

Now there was some other stuff

34:47

that was a little bit more challenging

34:48

including the dance and the apples and stuff.

34:51

But that was just done in fun.

34:53

That wasn't really anybody standing up there

34:55

saying we're going to now violate the whole

34:57

purpose of Christianity by committing

35:02

some sort of burning crosses or whatever.

35:05

There was certainly a pushing at the edge.

35:08

But it wasn't Heather.

35:12

-

Yes.

35:14

-

And a lot of the intellectual stuff

35:15

really wasn't very much pushing the edge.

35:17

But yet everything was being interpreted

35:21

as being heretical or dangerous

35:24

or outside of the boundaries of orthodoxy.

35:25

And that's what the part was that really puzzled me.

35:29

And that's why I called, I'm sure I called Heather up

35:31

and talked to her about that.

35:34

And that was the choice it seemed

35:39

that the denominations were making at that time.

35:40

Is that they were going to believe

35:44

the Institute of Religion and Democracy

35:45

and not believe people like me.

35:47

And I should have been a credible voice

35:51

as credible as the other person sitting there in the room.

35:53

But no.

35:56

-

Where do you think mainline Protestantism is today

36:00

on inclusive language, feminist theology?

36:03

-

Well, that's the interesting thing in 20 years retrospect

36:07

I think a lot of people who might have participated

36:10

in some of the, let's use the language,

36:13

I mean that was an intellectual and sort of Ecclesiastical

36:16

witch hunt that went on against those women.

36:19

-

Yes.

36:22

-

And a lot of their lives were almost ruined

36:23

because of what happened.

36:25

I do think that there would be people

36:30

who participated in that then that might regret that now.

36:30

Because now we've had 20 more years

36:35

of women in ministry.

36:38

And I think one of the things that we can fairly say

36:39

is that yeah the churches are all smaller than they were

36:42

20 years ago.

36:46

But that was not the women's fault. (laughs)

36:48

What happened was the women were the inheritors

36:51

of an institution that was already in a state of disarray.

36:54

And I think you can equally make the case that whatever

36:58

is left of mainline Protestantism

37:01

that women have saved it.

37:04

-

And how have women saved it would you say?

37:08

-

Well I think women saved it by being

37:10

willing to go in and take parishes

37:12

that no man would have ever taken.

37:13

You know that where they got half the pay

37:16

and still loved the people there

37:18

and cared for them and marry their grandchildren

37:21

and baptize their family members and buried them.

37:23

Women took a lot of really crappy jobs.

37:28

-

Yeah.

37:30

-

That no guy would ever take graduating from seminary.

37:32

And then, and I would I think be more like the first

37:33

maybe decade, first 15 years of women's ordination,

37:37

the Episcopal church certainly.

37:42

But then people began saying hey this isn't so scary.

37:44

She was actually a really good priest.

37:47

She was there for me when I was sick.

37:49

And so then those women started getting into somewhat

37:52

better jobs and then they begin to move

37:54

into more and more places of influence.

37:56

And started becoming professors at seminaries.

37:58

And I think there was just this kind of slow acceptance

38:03

of women that became almost a real enthusiasm

38:07

in many quarters for the ministry of women

38:10

and saying hey she was actually really a lot nicer

38:13

than any of the guys we ever had in this place

38:16

before then.

38:19

Or wasn't it fun when our priest was pregnant

38:21

and it was Christmas time.

38:24

And so that people began to really

38:26

see these amazing kinds of things

38:28

that women did because one sometimes they just had to

38:31

if they were going to exercise their ministry.

38:37

Or that they did because they loved.

38:40

Or that happened just because they happened to be women.

38:43

You know being pregnant at Christmas

38:45

gives a whole different spin to the Mary story.

38:46

-

It does.

38:48

-

You wind up being a character in the Christmas pageants.

38:49

(both laugh)

38:51

-

That's a good way to put it.

38:54

-

Rather than just a king.

38:56

(interviewer laughs)

38:58

-

You get to be Mary

38:59

and so I think that was really very powerful.

39:01

And then those women started sort of saying

39:09

they would just more naturally kind of read

39:13

the liturgy in different ways.

39:15

Or you know some were simply introducing

39:18

bits of liturgy.

39:21

And then overtly introducing liturgy.

39:25

And that changed things.

39:27

And I know Presbyterian and UCC and Episcopal

39:30

and Lutheran churches that use very much

39:34

things that happened at Re-Imagining 25 years ago

39:38

they use now in Sunday services.

39:41

-

Really?

39:42

-

Yeah.

39:43

-

Yeah.

39:45

-

Now they might not use it in every Sunday service

39:45

-

Rignt.

39:47

-

but I would say that there's a significant number

39:48

of I'd probably put it 30 to 40% of mainline congregations

39:52

on a somewhat regular basis use bits and pieces

39:58

of liturgy that were, would have been

40:02

comfortable at Re-Imagining in the 90s.

40:05

And some, there's probably about 20% of mainline churches

40:08

that I suspect that use that liturgy a lot.

40:12

And if not, some of them even as regular liturgies.

40:14

-

You mean actual liturgy from Re-Imagining

40:18

-

Oh yeah.

40:19

-

Yeah.

40:20

-

Well I don't know if it's the actual liturgy

40:21

from Re-Imagining but like there's a wonderful

40:22

Episcopal church that I was a member

40:25

of in Santa Barbara, California.

40:27

And I visit that church every year at least once.

40:29

And I've watched them over the last two decades

40:34

go on this long journey.

40:37

And in the 1990s, they were using fairly standard

40:38

Episcopal liturgy that now I think of as sexist.

40:42

But now they use liturgy

40:49

that there's snippets of it that are still

40:53

the traditional liturgy

40:55

but they use the inclusive language liturgy

40:57

of the Episcopal church.

40:59

They use the New Zealand liturgy

41:01

which was very much rewritten

41:03

in a non-sexist, non white privilege way.

41:06

They use that liturgy.

41:11

They use Janet Morley's Catholic liturgies

41:13

that are now, the Episcopal church

41:16

just this past year has officially permitted

41:18

Janet Morley's Catholic feminist liturgies

41:23

to be used in main Episcopal services.

41:26

-

Wow.

41:31

-

Yeah and those were

41:32

certainly influenced by Re-Imagining

41:33

all those years ago.

41:36

And so some bits and pieces of all of that work

41:38

that was done that was so controversial

41:42

and got people fired and caused such a stank

41:45

and fill the coffers of the Institute of Religion Democracy

41:49

with donation money that's become fairly

41:54

standard practice in a significant portion

41:59

of mainline Protestantism.

42:03

And that's a portion of mainline Protestantism

42:05

that is growing.

42:07

That's not the part that's in decline.

42:09

-

Yeah.

42:11

-

You go into those churches and like

42:12

All Saints Pasadena or Trinity Church Wall Street

42:14

in New York City.

42:17

Or Trinity Church in Santa Barbara

42:19

those are congregations that are big and stable

42:22

and even growing congregations.

42:26

And if not necessarily growing by leaps and bounds.

42:30

There are certainly congregations

42:33

that are not going anywhere cause they have

42:34

very dynamic memberships

42:37

that are Evangelistic and justice-oriented.

42:42

And they're some of our best congregations

42:47

that have made this term.

42:50

And I think that's true for the Lutherans

42:54

and the Presbyterians as well.

42:56

-

Yeah, you know in you're recent work Grounded

42:58

you do a great job of talking about spirituality

43:01

and the importance of nature and community.

43:03

And I wonder if you see any connections to Re-Imaging

43:06

in any of that.

43:09

-

Well you know I don't personally know,

43:10

Re-imagining was that moment

43:15

that sort of I think for me crystallized

43:17

where I had been going and sort of just said

43:20

hey don't be afraid of this.

43:23

You know all this stuff from graduate school,

43:25

you've already been a part of a congregation

43:28

that's starting to experiment with this.

43:30

And I was friends with a lot of people

43:34

in the mid 90s at Clermont School Of Theology.

43:36

And so they were, they had a lot of bugs in my ear.

43:39

And plus I had all this experience about Evangelical

43:43

feminism which was still very much a conversation

43:45

that was going on and the connections that I retained

43:51

in Evangelicalism which was mostly through fuller

43:55

seminary I think at that point

43:58

-

Yeah.

43:59

-

and some of the more liberal Evangelical organizations.

44:00

So all of that was already in play

44:06

-

Yes.

44:07

-

sort of in my own life and Re-Imagining

44:08

just sort of was a moment of underlining that.

44:10

And saying you know hey this is just part

44:13

of the tradition.

44:17

This is just part of reading the Bible.

44:18

This is who you are.

44:20

And this is the future.

44:23

And it's okay.

44:25

-

Yeah.

44:27

-

And I think that for me

44:28

that was the moment where I just sort of said

44:29

name it and claim it.

44:33

(both laugh)

44:37

It's an old adage I would say.

44:38

So I think that the trajectory in terms of my work

44:43

is a cumulative trajectory

44:48

in which Re-Imagining was sort of one pause

44:50

or one moment on that path.

44:54

That was important certainly

44:57

but not maybe formative.

44:59

-

Yes.

45:02

-

The other things were already in place

45:03

that were formative.

45:05

But Re-Imagining underscored it.

45:07

-

Yeah, that's great.

45:09

-

And I do meet Heather later.

45:11

-

Oh you did.

45:12

-

Yeah she actually

45:13

when I was looking for a job,

45:15

she brought me to Drew and I interviewed

45:17

for a position there and we had a great time.

45:19

And it was really wonderful

45:21

to think that at some point I might have worked undner her

45:23

as her being my dean.

45:25

But I guess I came in second for that job.

45:29

(interviewer laughs)

45:31

-

They probably always regretted that. (laughs)

45:32

-

No it went to a really cool guy,

45:34

out gay, really amazing American religion scholar

45:36

and hey I

45:39

-

YOu've done pretty well for yourself.

45:40

-

I'm fine and he's fine

45:42

and he's done great work.

45:45

-

Good.

45:47

-

So all is good.

45:47

-

Well I have just two more questions for you.

45:48

I really appreciate your time.

45:50

What do you think Re-Imagining means today

45:51

and I don't just mean the Re-Imagining community?

45:54

Think what needs to be re-imagined today

45:55

in church, in society.

45:58

-

One way I think Re-Imagining probably it's most

46:01

long term impact on me was to think

46:04

about theological imagination

46:07

and the importance of theological imagination.

46:11

And that it's a never ending task

46:14

is that we are always bring the sacred imagination

46:16

to play in our texts and our practices

46:20

and the ways that we gather as community

46:23

and the ways we worship.

46:25

And to understand how beautiful and precious

46:27

and what a creative process that is.

46:30

And so I think that

46:32

Re-Imagining just sort of reminded,

46:35

it taught me first of all that imagination

46:39

was necessary

46:42

in the life of the church.

46:44

And it's also for me, it's really pushed me

46:48

to the edges as a writer.

46:51

I really take that seriously as part of my call.

46:54

And so for me in a sense Re-Imagining never ends

46:58

which I'm reminded of with that apple.

47:00

-

Yes, yes.

47:02

-

When I pick that up every Christmas time

47:03

and hang it on my tree,

47:05

it's like okay well there was the Re-Imagining conference

47:06

back when and a lot of people got in trouble

47:09

but the task of re-imagining is continuous.

47:12

And it's beautiful.

47:16

And it is really the life of any faith community,

47:18

that constant call to enter into creativity.

47:22

Now I would talk about it as co-creation.

47:27

The co-creation of both the beloved community

47:31

of the church, the co-creation of just the beloved community

47:34

of humanity, the priesthood of all of us

47:38

of the whole human family.

47:42

In living in a keen sense of awareness of God's presence,

47:44

with and in and through us.

47:48

And that we are not only called to just re-imagine

47:51

theology but we're called always to re-imagine what

47:53

it means to live with justice.

47:56

And to live in such a way

48:01

that every human being has dignity.

48:04

And I think that for me that that's what re-imagining

48:08

has really come to mean.

48:10

It's a life commitment of the dream of God

48:12

and us participating with and in and through that.

48:17

And God with us doing it.

48:20

And so I'm really kind of grateful for the language

48:21

to re-imagine.

48:27

Cause it's a never ending task.

48:29

It's just a never ending task.

48:32

-

That was beautiful.

48:33

-

I have one last question for you.

48:35

-

Okay.

48:36

-

The Re-Imagining community has reincorporated and

48:37

-

I did not know that.

48:39

-

Yes, yes.

48:40

-

Oh wow it's a never ending task.

48:41

-

it is, it is.

48:43

(Diana laughs)

48:44

and we jump back in again.

48:45

And one of our works is developing a website.

48:46

And part of it is historical,

48:49

we're digitizing the conferences,

48:50

we're collecting history so it's not lost

48:52

but we also want to collect resources

48:57

and make connections for people.

48:59

And I'm just wondering if you had any thoughts

49:01

about resources we should include,

49:03

who would benefit from it.

49:05

Any ideas about what to do with the website.

49:07

-

Oh gosh, oh, I'm terrible with technology.

49:11

(interviewer laughs)

49:14

Although I love social media which is kind of weird.

49:15

I think of a lot of websites now

49:20

as libraries.

49:24

One of the websites that I'm really impressed with

49:26

that I think is doing great work about continuing

49:29

a legacy of someone that we love

49:32

is the Frederick Buechner community and website.

49:37

And they've done kind of some astonishing work

49:41

in keeping, you know Buechner is 90 now.

49:44

-

Yeah.

49:47

-

I guess they're just getting ready to celebrate

49:48

his 90th birthday.

49:49

And what they're trying to do through both

49:51

a website and conferences through social media

49:54

is making sure that the legacy of his words live.

49:57

-

Wonderful.

50:00

-

And so I can easily see Re-Imagining

50:01

trying to figure out how to do that.

50:05

How do you make this legacy sing.

50:08

And I could certainly think of a lot of people who need it.

50:12

Increasingly, I'm struck as I know so many millennial adults

50:16

now which is so funny cause they were the millennial kids

50:22

(interviewer laughs)

50:25

for a long time but now they're the millennial adults

50:26

and I'm really glad that we're all together

50:28

on this journey right now.

50:30

Cause I feel like as a baby boomer,

50:31

I feel like my life is so enriched

50:33

by my millennial kids and I have a step son

50:35

who's a millennial and my daughter's 18.

50:38

And my incredible number of friends

50:41

who are in their 20s and 30s.

50:43

And one of the really precious things

50:46

about so many of those journeys

50:49

is that those young adults grew up

50:52

in Evangelicalism in the 1980s when it was not like

50:54

the Evangelicalism that I describe that I knew in my 20s

50:56

in the 1970s.

51:01

For them Evangelicalism that they were born

51:04

to in the 1980s was the religious right

51:06

it was Jerry Falwell, it was narrow patriarchy.

51:09

It was anti-feminist.

51:14

It was against gay people.

51:14

That kind of Evangelicalism was horrifying.

51:16

And they were raised with it.

51:22

And so what's happening now is there's so many

51:24

people from the Evangelical tradition

51:26

who are having to leave.

51:29

And they don't know any of this history.

51:31

As a matter of fact, they were taught

51:34

that people like me

51:37

I know I've had friends

51:39

who are now in their 20s

51:40

or 30s who said that their parents

51:42

actually warned them not to read books

51:45

that I had written because I was dangerous.

51:47

And hey I went to college with those people.

51:51

(both laugh)

51:53

Or seminary and their parents or their pastors

51:57

think I'm dangerous.

52:01

-

Wow.

52:02

-

And so then they find their way to something

52:03

that I've written and it's like they've gone oh my gosh

52:06

this is beautiful.

52:07

This is what I think Christianity is.

52:08

And so I think what we have now is we have

52:10

this whole beautiful, amazing generation

52:12

of young adults who are on a journey

52:15

who have been so shaped by a really negative

52:19

form of Christianity

52:24

that they don't even know if they're Christian anymore.

52:26

And so the more I think we can put

52:28

the stories about a different sort of Christianity

52:31

out there, especially in places where they make

52:34

community like the internet.

52:37

That hopefully people will find their way there.

52:40

And realize that they have friends and that

52:43

there's different ways of seeing these things.

52:46

And that a lot of the work has been done.

52:48

That they can just pick up and if some of the younger

52:51

leaders that I know understood that that

52:55

and power of this work, I do think that it could

52:57

make their jobs easier.

53:01

-

Yes.

53:03

-

Cause they can build on it.

53:04

And they can just go further.

53:04

I don't want our work to colonize them.

53:06

-

Yes.

53:08

-

What I dream of, is having the work that we've done

53:09

and that we've left behind as simply

53:12

one more layer of a foundation.

53:15

That they can build something on that

53:19

would be beyond my wildest imagining.

53:22

That they can pick up the process

53:26

of this creative re-imagining, this co-creation.

53:29

And build just something that's so beautiful.

53:32

And that's more truly Christian

53:37

than what even I can imagine.

53:41

And that's why we need each other.

53:43

And so I think that having places

53:46

where these resources and these stories are preserved

53:49

are just a way of laying that foundation.

53:52

So that people can take it and build more.

53:55

-

You express beautifully what the Re-Imagining community

53:59

is hoping.

54:03

Thank you.

54:04

-

Oh that's wonderful.

54:04

-

It's beautifully expressed, that's exactly what

54:06

-

Well I always just watching

54:07

or on edge and I did steal your apple.

54:08

I suppose I owe you.

54:12

(both laugh)

54:13

-

Oh no we owe you, we owe you please.

54:14

And I love that, people will be thrilled to know

54:17

that at Christmas, we'll be thinking of you at Christmas

54:19

when you put that apple on the tree.

54:21

-

Aw well thank you.

54:22

-

With gratitude, enjoy.

54:23

-

It's always there.

54:26

-

I love it.

54:27

-

Is there anything we haven't discussed

54:28

that you would like to add Diana.

54:29

-

Oh, no.

54:31

-

This was great.

54:34

-

Yeah thank you so much.

54:35

-

Thank you so much.

54:36

Bass, Diana Butler

Transcript

Item Info

Sallie Bingham Center for Women's History & Culture