Ortega, Ofelia / Re-Imagining Collection / Duke Digital Repository

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Thank you so much, Ofelia, for being interviewed,

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and I have some background questions for you.

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If you could first say your name.

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Yes, my name is Ofelia Ortega, yes.

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Thank you, and are you lay or clergy?

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I am a clergy.

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I was the first woman to be ordained in Cuba,

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in 1967, long time ago.

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Yes, and that was in the Presbyterian church?

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Presbyterian church, yes.

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I have been Presbyterian since I was four years old.

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Really?

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I have been

in the Presbyterian Church all of my life,

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and then in 1967, I was ordained.

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It was the same year that the Presbyterian church in Cuba

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become autonomous from the Synod of New Jersey.

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Of New Jersey?

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Until 1967, we belonged to the Synod of New Jersey,

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then we become autonomous.

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And then, it was a very incredible service there,

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to become autonomous, by ourself now, after 1967,

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and be ordained at that time.

1:04

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Oh, amazing, and I am so interested in this.

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How did you decide to become ordained?

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What led you to that?

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I want to tell you that when I finish in our seminary

1:13

in Cuba, my first degree in Christian education,

1:18

it was a time that the missionaries left.

1:22

I finished my first degree in 1959,

1:25

the same year of the revolution in Cuba.

1:28

Then many of the missionaries left in the '60s.

1:31

Then in 1960, then I began to teach already,

1:34

at the seminary there in Cuba,

1:38

and then I worked for eight years in the Presbyterian church

1:43

since 1959, more or less, until 1967,

1:48

as what they call a commissioner for Christian education.

1:52

Then when I was ordained it was more or less

1:59

already eight years of work in Christian education.

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In the first decade of the revolution in Cuba,

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the '60s, that was the most hard time of that moment.

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And then I never struggle for ordination,

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it was the general secretary of the church,

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because after that, I took then my degree in theology.

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And then, the general secretary of the church said

2:27

you are one of our best theologians, he asked me,

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Ofelia, I think it's time for you to be ordained now.

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And then I told him, what, then I need

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to pass exams, one evening.

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No, no, buy a nice dress for the ordination.

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You need to buy a nice dress for the ordination.

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I was the only Cuban that never pass exams of ordination.

2:49

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Is that right?

2:55

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But I have already eight years of work, you see?

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They realize that, that I don't need to be proved

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that I was good, because I had been working

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for eight years in Christian education, doing workshops,

3:05

doing a lot of things in the Presbyterian church,

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and then he says I only need to go

3:12

and buy a nice dress for the ordination.

3:15

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That's a great story.

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So you hadn't thought about being ordained,

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he was the one who thought that?

3:21

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It was the general secretary who asked me,

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I think we could ordain you now,

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because now you have the second degree in theology.

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I was the first woman to have this degree,

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of theology in our theological seminary in Matanzas,

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because I realized I cannot be a good Christian educator,

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a professor, without a good degree in theology.

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Then I passed the degree in theology

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and then the general secretary of the Presbyterian Church

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asked me to be ordained.

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It was more or less a mandate.

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And that was the same place you returned later

3:58

to be rector, is that the same seminary?

4:00

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Yes, yes, yes, but I work in different churches,

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especially in the rural areas.

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When I was ordained I was assigned

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to at least four different churches,

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during more or less some years, more than 15 years,

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and then I returned to be the principal

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of our theological seminary.

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Really, when I finished my task

4:26

in the World Council of Churches.

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I was called to work

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in the World Council of Churches in 1985.

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I never applied to work in the World Council of Churches,

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they called me to work there in 1985.

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Really?

4:41

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Then I worked in the World Council of Churches

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from 1985 until 1997.

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Then I returned to Cuba to be the principal of the seminary

4:49

in Matanzas, the place that I was teaching for some years.

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Yes, it has been good time in life.

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Teaching, and my time at the World Council of Churches

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was wonderful, especially working with women

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and struggling for the rights of women all over,

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inside the building and outside the building.

5:12

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Now that's what you were doing

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during Re-Imagining, correct?

5:16

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Exactly, in '93, because I was in

5:18

the World Council of Churches in '93.

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I arrived 1985, then in 1993 I was

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in the Council of Churches, because I returned from Geneva,

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in Switzerland in 1997 to Cuba.

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I remember the first of April, that it was a foolish day!

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That's right.

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Then some people

were thinking, are you going back to Cuba,

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in the foolish day, yes.

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Many were very interested, and they noticed

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that we returned in the foolish day, to Cuba.

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What brought you back to Cuba?

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The position at the seminary?

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The call of the church, yes, yes, yes.

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I went to Geneva with the support of my church.

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They told me okay, now is the moment

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that maybe you will be good that you go to the work

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of other churches to work,

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to respond to this call.

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And then I returned when the church called me back

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to work in Cuba, and I was happy.

6:11

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I was happy to return to Cuba,

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to work at the seminary there.

6:15

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And what was your title at the World Council of Churches?

6:19

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I was, the first three years, I work as professor,

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in the Ecumenical Institute of Bossey, for three years.

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And after three years, they moved me

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to the program of theological education

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for Latin America and the Caribbean.

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Then I was more or less the executive secretary

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in the program of theological education

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of the World Council of Churches,

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but especially for my region, Latin America and Caribbean.

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And I want to tell you that it was a wonderful time.

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Was it?

6:58

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Because it was a time

that could really raise a lot of funds to support women

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to get their degree in theology,

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in Latin America and the Caribbean.

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Many women that today are working,

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it was during that time that they received

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really a lot of support from the World Council of Churches,

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on this theological educational program, to help.

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I remember that my boss was John Kwofie, an African,

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wonderful man, that he is now actually a bishop in Ghana.

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He was my boss, he was excellent.

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And then, John Kwofie decided one woman in our program,

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that we need to support women 100%.

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This means there are men good

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in different part of the world.

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And this African, he's a bishop now in Ghana.

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I hope that he will see the web and say,

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oh, Ofelia's mentioning me.

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John Kwofie, wonderful man, and 1% of our funds

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were given to women.

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And then there was the time, that it was organized

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by our support, of this circle of women in Africa,

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with Mercy Amba Oduyoye as the boss of this circle.

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It was the time that we said, now women in Africa

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need to be organized very well, to be writers.

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And then Mercy Amba Oduyoye said, yes.

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And the Institute is still working there in Africa.

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Is it?

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It is still working

under the leader of Mercy Amba Oduyoye,

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my dear friend and sister.

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And we did a lot, for example, during that time,

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it was Elsa Tamez, we really find the funds,

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to bring Elsa Tamez to Geneva, to Switzerland,

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to Lucerne, to have her degree.

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And she has been one of the best biblical scholar

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in the whole Latin America.

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Then the funds were provide by the workers of our church,

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for her and for some men too in the area,

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but we support women all over

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to see that they will get a degree

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in theological education during that time.

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That is exciting.

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You mentioned, how else did you support women?

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Both in that role,

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that sounds so important.

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How what?

9:38

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Oh, how else did you support women,

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you mentioned other ways?

9:42

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Well, yes,

during the decade of this church is

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in solidarity with women,

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we have what we call the living letters.

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We were visiting the churches in Latin America.

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I remember that I visit Peru and Chile

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with a French man,

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a lovely French man,

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and that he died already.

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We worked together visiting, we called the living letter.

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People go in there to visit,

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to see what happened to churches.

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We have all kind of stories.

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For example, I remember,

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we went to one church.

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One of the women said,

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my pastor said that I cannot even go to the pulpit

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or read The Bible or whatever if I have menstruation.

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This man's Leviticus.

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Taking Leviticus, The Bible in a way

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that you cannot imagine that.

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And another woman said, my pastor said that I cannot go

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to read The Bible, or whatever,

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if I have a sexual relationship with my husband

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the night before.

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All kind of stories we heard.

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This is incredible stories that we said,

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how this could be?

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How this could happen in this century?

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That we are taking The Bible in such a way

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that limited the expression of women,

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and even limited the, I would say, the sexuality of women.

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Women's menstruation is a gift from God.

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Then you say you cannot read The Bible

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if you are menstruating,

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you don't know God at all.

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And we found that during this visit in Peru and Chile,

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and there is a booklet.

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Maybe you could look to that.

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There is a booklet of these times.

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The WCC published in Spanish, English, German,

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and some other language.

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Try to to look at that.

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Do you know that the title of it is?

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It must be in the World Council of Churches.

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Yes, I will do that.

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Some of the stories are there.

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The living letters of the visitors

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of the work comes from our church.

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All kind of a stories.

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Then we realized that how people

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could take The Bible like that.

12:11

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Yes, that's fascinating.

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It's not God desire it.

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To limit the life of people, it's not God desires.

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And Ofelia, how did you first become aware

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of feminist theology?

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Oh my goodness, this is a good question.

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You see, you know that theology of liberation

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was going in Latin America in the '70s.

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Oh yes.

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But the theologians of liberation,

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the men, men theologians,

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you know the names,

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they really were more or less focused in economic.

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And they forgot women culture, the indigenous people,

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black women too, black people, not only women

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but black people, indigenous people, these things,

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and it was only in 1979 that we met.

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And it was a group of religious sisters

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from the Catholic Church, that still they are in Mexico.

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We met in Mexico.

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It's a group of religious sisters, Catholics,

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that they call Women for Dialogue.

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Women for Dialogue.

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They call us to meet.

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Who's us, I'm sorry, who met with them?

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Well, we met for the first time, I met there in 1979,

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in St. Thomas, I met there Ada Maria Isasi-Diaz.

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She had been working here in the States with Hispanic women.

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She left Cuba when she was 18 years old.

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And many other people from Latin America,

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there were people too from different countries.

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We have a kind of interdisciplinary meeting,

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because we have women doing,

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we have anthropologists, economic people,

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but we have also then had people from the popular movement,

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people that were cleaning ladies,

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trade union cleaning ladies.

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Then Women for Dialogue,

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these religious sisters met us there.

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It was the first meeting of women theologians

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in Latin America.

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1979, first time that we met.

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First time.

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It was a very particular meeting that,

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tirst time, that we met for the first time.

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Oh, you are, I'm part of a tribe from Colombia.

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Oh, you are Elsa Tamez from Costa Rica.

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Oh, you are Ada Maria from the United States.

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Oh my goodness, what good combination.

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And at the end of the meeting,

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I was the only woman ordained in the whole group,

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because I was ordained in 1967, and it was at 1979.

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The religious sisters said we want to have

15:10

an eucharistic service, Ofelia.

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I said, well, I do not have a proper dress.

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They went out and they bought, I remember,

15:25

a kind of Mexican dress.

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I was yellow, a lovely yellow.

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It was a yellow dress.

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And then I have this gown, yellow gown.

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And then they said, we want that you have the communion

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with a Catholic priest.

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And it was a Catholic priest in Mexico that said,

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yes, I will do the communion with you.

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And it was the same day that the Pope said in New York

15:50

women never will be ordained.

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Same day!

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The same day, the Pope say in New York

15:59

women will not be ordained.

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And then this same day we have a Catholic priest

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together with a Protestant woman from Cuba

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doing eucharistic service in the meeting there.

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We met in Tepeyac that it was a very special place

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because it was the place

16:20

of the Virgin, Guadalupe there.

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It was very special there.

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And then we had the eucharistic service,

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a Catholic priest together with a Protestant woman.

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Amazing.

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No woman ordination in New York!

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In Mexico, woman ordained, presenting eucharistic service.

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This is the light, and I like to do it.

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Breaking barriers, all the things that could really

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stop the participation of women in everything,

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even in eucharistic services, yes, the sacrament.

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That is wonderful.

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It was 1979.

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Since then, of course, we continue working.

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We have several meetings in Buenos Aires

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and different places.

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Then we went together now, after 1979.

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And then we began to write.

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I don't know if you know the booklet

17:12

that we published in Latin America, Ribla, R-I-B-L-A.

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This is going to the Web.

17:21

I asked people, look for the magazine Ribla,

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R-I-B-L-A, Ribla.

17:28

There you have more than, yes, probably more

17:32

than 500 writers, women writers there,

17:39

writing, doing Exodus of The Bible.

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They have a lot of publications,

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and now it's in the Web now.

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Ribla is in Web.

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Wonderful.

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Go there and read that, what the women are writing

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in Ribla, in Latin America, yes.

17:55

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Did that come out of the meeting of the women theologians.

17:57

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No, no, no, no, no, this was really two men

18:00

that decided to organize that in Latin America

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together with women.

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Especially we have Carlos Mesters

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from the Catholic Church, Roman Catholic Church,

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and Milton Schwantes.

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Milton Schwantes die already.

18:19

Milton Schwantes, Lutheran.

18:20

One of the best biblical scholar

18:23

in the whole Latin America.

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Carlos Mesters and Milton Schwantes

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began at the beginning the whole process

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of the base communities

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and then they decided to organize all these meetings

18:34

of people doing research and writing as biblical scholars

18:38

in the whole Latin America.

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And the magazine is Ribla.

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Today, we are going to have in Cuba in July,

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July this year, will be a meeting

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of some of the biblical scholars, women and men,

18:53

that will come to have a meeting to continue

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the work of Ribla.

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This is wonderful, might I say.

19:02

And the person that is leader now of Ribla

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is Nestor Miguez, that he's from Argentina,

19:06

one of our best biblical scholars in Latin America.

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But we will have many women there to participate in there.

19:15

Yes, the movement is going on.

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Yes, that is wonderful.

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For sure.

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Oh, that's wonderful.

19:24

So, to move to Re-Imagining, you were one of the presenters

19:26

at the Re-Imagining, the 1993 gathering,

19:30

and you didn't participate in other ones,

19:33

but do you remember anything about the invitation

19:37

and how you were invited, or what that process was?

19:39

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I received an invitation maybe because I was working

19:43

and the work concerns churches and the problem

19:46

of theological education for Latin America

19:49

and the Caribbean.

19:52

And they assigned me to do Re-Imagining worship.

19:53

And I enjoyed to do that.

19:56

Because being a pastor, I say liturgy

19:58

is one of the ways that we can work

20:02

for the transformation of people, liturgy.

20:04

Then I say, okay, then I like that.

20:07

But surprisingly, it was what happened

20:11

after Re-Imagining.

20:14

You see, I said, I need to read on my papers again, I said.

20:16

What do I say?

20:21

Let me look at the paper to see what do I say.

20:24

Is this against the theology that we need to propose?

20:26

No, it's alright,

20:32

what I was telling you was alright.

20:33

And then what happened?

20:35

And then it was very interesting for me to see

20:36

the happiness after the Re-Imagining committee,

20:40

because it was such a good time.

20:43

Especially, we enjoyed the liturgy.

20:46

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Yes, say some more about that.

20:48

What do you remember about it?

20:49

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I remember the liturgy.

20:51

For the first time, I began to hear about wisdom

20:53

in The Bible.

21:00

Never before I have so many insights

21:02

of what wisdom means in The Bible.

21:06

And I said, okay, wisdom, my goodness, sophia.

21:10

And then we had the whole celebration,

21:16

call in Sofia to bless us.

21:19

And they said it was good.

21:22

We enjoyed, we laughed, we danced.

21:24

It was wonderful to see the inspiration,

21:27

to see, well, now we are relating

21:30

with this wisdom, with sophia.

21:33

And then I think this was a problem, one of the problems,

21:37

that the people, they didn't understand that.

21:41

But it was the first time that The Bible was opened to us,

21:44

to tell us, look, wisdom was there.

21:48

Old Testament and New Testament, wisdom was there.

21:51

And then to look at all the biblical passages

21:56

that speak our wisdom in the Old Testament, New Testament,

21:59

to say, my goodness, this is wonderful.

22:02

And at the same time to appreciate how Jesus Christ

22:06

take wisdom even with him in his ministry.

22:12

I think we have that in Re-Imagining.

22:17

Jesus taking this in his spirit.

22:20

You see, and afterwards, I was looking

22:22

at the ministry of Jesus in a different way.

22:25

For example, I said, afterwards I said,

22:28

oh my goodness, Jesus even could change words.

22:30

And I'm looking at the passage

22:36

when a woman give unction.

22:38

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Yes, yes, yes, yes, oil, anoint.

22:44

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Oil, and then the Pharisees said,

22:46

you don't look at this woman in the proper way.

22:50

And then they used the word, in Greek, (Greek word).

22:54

And then Jesus changed the word, and said,

22:59

well, you didn't see her in the proper way,

23:02

and he used the word, (foreign word).

23:07

How Jesus could change words.

23:10

And I think, this is what I want to do.

23:12

To have wisdom inside in a way that I could

23:15

even change words of the people,

23:18

and said, you cannot tell this women

23:21

that she cannot inspirational.

23:22

This means to be present in Re-Imagining

23:25

really orientate my life very much into biblical exegesis*

23:31

that will be really good for our people,

23:39

especially our poor people.

23:44

That sometimes we are so heretical

23:46

that they can't understand what The Bible says.

23:49

But telling these stories of wisdom to them,

23:52

they say, oh my goodness, this is wonderful.

23:56

We support by that.

23:58

Then Re-Imagining gave to me orientation for the future.

23:59

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Say some more about that.

24:04

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Orientation for the future to read The Bible

24:06

in a different way,

24:09

to enjoy liturgy in a way that we enjoy worship and liturgy,

24:12

and to know that we could work

24:17

for transformation and changes,

24:20

and this is what maybe the people didn't accept

24:24

at that time.

24:27

Some of the people that contested Re-Imagining,

24:28

they don't understand that to work as Christians

24:32

we always need to work for transformation and changes.

24:37

We cannot be paralyzed in the past, or in tradition,

24:43

or in codex, whatever, that all below.

24:48

I see we need really to be supported by grace,

24:55

by the grace of God, and by changing.

24:59

After Re-Imagining, I discovered one biblical passage

25:05

that it was for me the motor of my life.

25:09

Second of Corinthians eight and nine.

25:14

It was the passage that for the first time,

25:17

Paul speaks about economy.

25:22

I think people need to read these two passages,

25:25

because, you see, the Church of Macedonia,

25:28

a very poor church, is put an example by Paul

25:33

to the whole people in Corinthians.

25:38

And I said, oh my goodness, this is exactly

25:41

what we are doing in Cuba.

25:43

Being a poor country, like we are,

25:45

we are sharing what we have with all the people

25:48

all over the world.

25:51

Our medical service, to help people to read, to write,

25:53

and to read, this, we have been very poor country,

25:59

like the church of Macedonia,

26:03

but when we are moving to share what we have

26:05

with other countries all over the world.

26:09

And it was shown how, by the prize that our medical doctor

26:11

received from the United Nations,

26:19

because they went to Africa with the Ebola epidemic.

26:23

We were the first doctors that were there

26:29

with the Ebola epidemic.

26:30

I said, well, this is what Paul is saying

26:33

in second of Corinthians eight and nine.

26:38

And I seen people in the consume society

26:41

needs to read these two biblical passages,

26:43

because there Paul said that those that has many,

26:45

don't have too much, and those that have less,

26:50

don't have too less.

26:54

Those that have many don't have too much,

26:56

and those who have less don't have too less.

26:57

Them opened The Bible to me,

27:00

and I seen this was part of the Re-Imagining understanding.

27:02

-

Did you hear it, was that interpreted at Re-Imagining?

27:07

-

No, I discovered this afterwards.

27:13

-

You did, yes.

27:15

-

But it was because of the tools that I received

27:16

in Re-Imagining.

27:18

Because Re-Imagining was giving us tools,

27:20

tools to understand better the worship,

27:23

tools to understand better The Bible,

27:25

tools to understand better the relationship with people.

27:27

Very much indeed.

27:32

I feel I was inspired by reading that I received there,

27:33

for Letty Russell, readings from her,

27:39

speaking of the theology of relationships.

27:43

And since Re-Imagining, my theology

27:46

is theology of relationships.

27:48

No more than that.

27:50

Connecting and having relationships with all over.

27:52

-

How would you describe the tools that you received?

27:56

-

The tools, I describe the tools from The Bible studies

27:59

I would receive there, the worship that it was wonderful,

28:04

that I received there, conversations,

28:08

people that encouraged us to continue working.

28:13

It was a kind of momentum in life.

28:17

Re-Imagining was a particular momentum in life.

28:21

Then I'm glad that they speak today

28:26

about continuing of Re-Imagining,

28:28

because you would could continue Re-Imagining now,

28:31

at the different levels, north, south, east, west.

28:35

Then if we could have networks of Re-Imagining all over,

28:40

we could do a lot of transformation and changes

28:46

in our churches.

28:48

That our churches need these changes,

28:51

and in our societies too.

28:53

This means some of the tools were received

28:55

by biblical scholars there, excellent biblical scholars,

28:59

by the people that organized the program

29:04

and lead the worship,

29:06

and always I have been grateful, very grateful,

29:08

to Anna Maria Lundy,

29:12

because she was really a powerful source of sustaining us,

29:14

not even during Re-Imagining, and after Re-Imagining,

29:22

I feel, she continued working a lot

29:26

through the workings of our churches

29:28

to support women all over.

29:30

Then I see this as being, yes, a particular moment in life,

29:32

that really encouraged us that we could do more.

29:39

You could do more, I could do more.

29:44

-

I wonder if you could say a little bit more about,

29:48

the worship was amazing,

29:50

do you remember what about the worship

29:52

you found particularly inspiring?

29:54

-

The joy.

29:56

-

Joy, yes.

29:57

-

Joy!

29:58

Well, you see, some of our worships in our churches

29:59

our the funerals.

30:02

You go in there thinking, oh, I'm going to die.

30:04

Oh, I'm going to die.

30:08

But then the worship in Re-Imagining was joyful.

30:10

Even we dance, that now we know

30:16

that in African churches they dance.

30:21

But it's so difficult for the north to dance and worship.

30:24

But we were dancing.

30:28

-

We were.

30:29

-

Round dancing, dancing, oh, it was wonderful.

30:30

Laughing, dancing, joyful worship.

30:34

And I think the joy was the best.

30:36

The joy of finding a smiling God.

30:39

-

I like that.

30:46

-

Finding a smiling God.

30:47

And not only a God in the cross suffering,

30:49

but a resurrected God,

30:54

like the women find the resurrection at the end,

30:56

all the women that find him,

31:05

we found a resurrected God,

31:06

that could laugh, dance, and do a lot of things together,

31:09

and not this God that sometimes is so sad

31:14

that we cannot even imagine him.

31:18

Then imagining God with this joyful expression

31:20

gave some kind of tranquility.

31:26

I feel so nice inside.

31:31

After Re-Imagining, I said to myself,

31:37

okay, I could really be in front of any problem

31:39

that I know that I could resolve that.

31:45

-

It gave you strength and courage.

31:48

-

Strength and courage, exactly, exactly.

31:50

And still I want to confess to you

31:54

I am a little troublemaker, doesn't matter

31:56

Doesn't matter because being a troublemaker

31:59

you could do a lot of things.

32:01

And I am.

32:03

I would confess to you, I am.

32:04

I am because I was encouraged in Re-Imagining

32:06

to say, don't be paralyzed,

32:09

don't stop yourself.

32:12

You march, you go, you do.

32:15

And then this was Re-Imagining, the Re-Imagining conference.

32:19

I hope that all the women feel like that during that.

32:22

But I like the continuity, we could continue.

32:26

-

Absolutely, yes.

32:30

Do you wanna talk some about the backlash?

32:32

-

Yes, yes.

32:35

-

Did it affect you directly, first of all?

32:36

-

No.

32:39

-

Okay.

-

No, no, because, in the workings at our churches,

32:40

of course, I was with the women task force,

32:45

and I was the moderator of the women task force.

32:50

We were very strong.

32:53

And the women task force, we include not only executive.

32:55

We have secretaries, we have people

32:59

that are not at the upper level,

33:01

but are at the middle or lower level,

33:03

and always we do this with our theology.

33:06

To be with people not only at the upper level,

33:09

and then to have to have to sit together,

33:12

and then at the same time to have people

33:14

from different religions, too.

33:17

One of the things that really encouraged me was to meet,

33:19

and it was the impetus to maintain,

33:23

Orthodox women, or Roman Catholic women, or Jewish women,

33:25

women from different religions, Muslims, Hindus,

33:30

women that, you sit down with them and then

33:34

you could talk with them about what is in your faith

33:39

that encourages you to go on.

33:44

And they will say, oh, this and this and this.

33:46

And there are many common things that united us.

33:49

-

What were some of those things, would you say?

33:53

-

Well, prayer.

33:54

Prayer united us.

33:57

Caring for others united us.

34:00

I like very much in Africa ubuntu, because ubuntu said,

34:04

you are because I am, and I am because you are.

34:10

This means community developed, community.

34:15

-

Relationships.

34:18

-

Relationships.

34:19

Theology of relationship that I learned from Letty Russell.

34:20

Theology of relationships.

34:23

And, yes, I think that in Re-Imagining, at the same time,

34:25

I bought many books.

34:31

This was another thing.

34:33

I could buy books.

34:34

It was a good library display,

34:36

and it was when I found Phyllis Trible

34:39

with the books that she has,

34:43

texts of terrors in the Old Testament.

34:46

And now I could teach my students in Matanzas.

34:48

Look, there are texts of terrors in the Old Testament,

34:52

Phyllis Trible is telling us.

34:54

And I bought books too.

34:56

At the same time I could return to the WCC

34:58

and then afterwards to Cuba with all these books

35:02

that I could buy in Re-Imagining conference

35:05

because there was a good exposition of good books there.

35:10

And it was not only the literature

35:13

but books, libraries, books that women wrote,

35:14

and it has been an inspiration for us.

35:20

There have been many things together,

35:23

and with Re-Imagining, it was a kind of,

35:24

we always said that it was like different,

35:28

we are telling in Latin America, different, how do you say,

35:33

when you do one of these things like that,

35:36

that have many, many patches?

35:40

-

Pieces.

35:44

-

Pieces, many pieces.

35:44

Then I said Re-Imagining broke towards many pieces.

35:46

And then you could have a big tablecloth

35:50

or a big mat or a big piece of material

35:53

with all these little pieces

36:01

that women brought to this meeting.

36:04

-

Like a quilt?

36:05

-

Like a quilt, exactly.

36:06

Re-Imagining was like a quilt.

36:09

(crosstalk)

36:10

With little pieces put together.

36:12

And I think this is the image that I have of Re-Imagining,

36:15

but at the same time, pieces of color.

36:18

-

Yes, exactly!

36:21

-

A lot of color pieces!

36:23

Black, white, yellow, red, whatever, all kind of pieces.

36:25

Because we have black people there,

36:30

we have yellow people there,

36:32

we have white people there,

36:34

we have people from different countries to there,

36:35

yes it was a kind of quilt full of colors,

36:39

colors of women from different part of the world too, yes.

36:44

-

Given how wonderful it was, and it was,

36:47

how did you react to the backlash against it?

36:51

Did it surprise you?

36:54

What did you think of that?

36:55

-

Well, I will say at the beginning, it surprised me.

36:57

I said, what happened to these men?

37:01

what happened to them,

37:04

that they react so strongly to that?

37:06

And finally I said, well,

37:10

I even didn't remember the name of the institution.

37:16

It was Lay, Layman something.

37:19

-

Presbyterian Layman.

37:21

-

Presbyterian Layman, there is, yes

37:22

and it was a question

37:24

why Mary Ann Lundy lost her job.

37:25

Presbyterian Layman, and then I said,

37:29

what happened to them?

37:32

Do they literally diminish of Jesus in a good way or not,

37:34

what happened to them?

37:41

And then at the same time, what do attack

37:42

a group of women so violent there,

37:47

was some arguments that really were not the right arguments.

37:52

Because at the same time, I believe in dialogue.

37:57

You could have dialogue, you could talk.

38:01

We could explain to them, we could have a meeting

38:04

of the minds and to explain to them

38:08

what is the meaning of wisdom,

38:10

what is the meaning of not to,

38:12

when we attack, when we try to destroy all the lives,

38:14

we are not doing what Jesus wants us to do.

38:21

We could sit down and talk.

38:24

And at the same time, I learn in life

38:26

that we cannot think the same, we are different.

38:30

We could have different opinions,

38:35

different feelings about things.

38:38

Some people like the funeral worship, I don't like them,

38:41

but maybe they like it.

38:44

I need to respect them.

38:46

Then it was in some way, I seemed,

38:48

we need to go more and more in dialogue.

38:52

And then they said, pity that they didn't want

38:55

to have a dialogue, to sit down with the organizers

38:57

of Re-Imagining and talk.

39:00

Let us see what you feel about wisdom,

39:03

it was not heretic, as they said, it was really

39:07

a different way of seeing wisdom in The Bible

39:10

and sophia and all this.

39:14

I mean, we could talk, and then it's not that

39:15

we could change them, but at least they could feel

39:20

that in life there are people

39:24

that think differently like you.

39:26

And when we said that,

39:29

we cannot sit down in the church,

39:31

because in the church we are totally different, all of us,

39:33

and thank God for that, that we are not similar,

39:37

we are different, but all of us, we have God's image.

39:40

When we have reminded him, we have God image in us,

39:45

and we have the holy spirit, too, in us.

39:50

Because it was clear the holy spirit was working there,

39:53

Re-Imagining things for the future.

39:58

I think that we believe in a subversive holy spirit,

40:04

subversive holy spirit.

40:07

A holy spirit that is working when you not imagine even

40:09

that it was working.

40:13

For example, when I've been in Cuba,

40:15

I said, we never could think that the churches in Cuba

40:16

could grow so much,

40:21

being in a Socialist country,

40:24

being with the Communist party,

40:26

but the churches are growing.

40:29

We have 3,000 to 5,000 house churches now,

40:31

it's thanks to all the missionary work,

40:34

and this is the subversive work of the holy spirit.

40:36

You don't believe that,

40:39

you don't believe in the holy spirit.

40:42

And I like when you mostly, I like Paul,

40:45

because Paul is using, I am professor of ethics,

40:48

and Paul is using ethical views in his ethics

40:58

that for me they are very valuable.

41:04

He use the indicative and the imperative,

41:07

the indicative is that you have the holy spirit,

41:11

but the imperative said, but you need to live

41:15

the holy spirit.

41:20

It's not only to have the holy spirit,

41:21

you need to live the holy spirit.

41:23

And then we have all the fruits of the holy spirit,

41:25

and we have the fruits.

41:28

And I think that it's a pity that we couldn't have

41:30

at that time a dialogue with them

41:32

to convince them that we were not heretic,

41:35

that we were doing the will of God

41:39

during the Re-Imagining conference, that's it.

41:41

Simple like that.

41:44

But it was hard for me to hear the Baptists side,

41:46

oh my goodness.

41:50

But you see today, we're not out of that

41:52

either in the world.

41:55

The backlash is going to women again.

41:58

For example, many of these women that we prepare

42:01

very well in Latin America, now many churches

42:04

they don't like the theology that they are teaching.

42:07

They said, nuh uh, we don't like very much,

42:11

but it's a good theology, you say,

42:14

what of the theology?

42:15

-

What don't they like about the theology?

42:17

-

It's feminist theology.

42:19

Of course it's feminist theology.

42:21

They are looking at The Bible with women eyes,

42:22

it's feminist theology, yes.

42:26

We are not, we always said in Latin America,

42:27

we are feminIst theologians of liberation,

42:30

feminist theologians of liberation.

42:34

Everything that free women is good.

42:36

Everything that really enslave people,

42:39

women, or men, or children, is bad.

42:42

It means we want to see in The Bible that liberation

42:46

is stronger there, all over from God,

42:49

from the beginning to the end.

42:52

I think we need to look at that.

42:56

-

What do you think is causing that backlash

42:58

against Re-Imagining, even today?

43:00

-

We are becoming more conservative and traditional

43:04

in many of the world churches now,

43:07

more conservative, more traditional.

43:10

I don't know if they want to respond to the people

43:12

that have power, that sometimes the people

43:16

that have power and rich, they are more conservative

43:19

than people that are more poor and have less.

43:23

They are more conservative, they want to keep the tradition.

43:27

They low, and they are not for the grace of God.

43:30

I think the people in United States need to read

43:36

the book of Elsa Tamez, it's in English,

43:39

The Amnesty of God.

43:45

That it's trying to insist there is

43:48

no condemnation of God.

43:50

In the Spanish, no hay condemnacion, the amnesty of God.

43:52

And this was her dissertation, and it was

43:56

on the book of Romans, too.

43:59

The Amnesty of God.

44:02

Then I think people, we today

44:04

believe that many people are living

44:11

what we call in English greed,

44:14

greed, avaricia, greed.

44:21

-

Yes, greed, avarice, yes.

44:23

-

Avarice, to have more, and more, and more.

44:25

It's not to be, but is to have.

44:28

And then we need to, I think what Re-Imagining

44:31

wants to tell us is to be less,

44:36

to be, and not just to have.

44:40

And then today greed is growing fast, very fast,

44:43

to have more, and more, and more, and more.

44:51

And then if you want to have more,

44:53

you need to be more conservative,

44:55

then you have to have less, then you would be more open

44:57

to the things, you need to lose things,

45:01

you need to lose things, and then people don't want

45:04

to lose, they want to only go up, and up, and up,

45:07

and this is the problem.

45:11

This is a problem.

45:12

That is the reason why I say today there is

45:14

a movement, and maybe we could contact Re-Imagining

45:17

with this movement.

45:20

The movement is called oikostri, oikostri.

45:21

Oikos means the house of God,

45:28

and tri means three, then the whole question

45:31

of theology of creation.

45:34

Because we emphasize very much theology of redemption,

45:36

and not theology of creation.

45:41

And I think in Re-Imagining,

45:43

we emphasize theology of creation.

45:44

Theology of creation, not theology of redemption.

45:47

Not only to save souls, but to save lives.

45:50

And one of the best documents that we have today,

45:56

we have two wonderful documents today,

45:58

one is the mission document of the workings of the churches.

46:01

That is called together for life, juntas por la vida,

46:06

together for life, if you are not for life,

46:13

you are anti-life and this is the question.

46:17

Together for life, how we could be together for life.

46:21

And I think this was Re-Imagining,

46:24

together for life, to have life for women,

46:26

for the people, theology of creation, for the environment,

46:29

this was Re-Imagining, theology for life,

46:31

not for redemption, not only to save souls.

46:37

And you go to the minister magicians,

46:42

it was not only to save souls,

46:44

it was really theology of creation to save humanity.

46:46

And creation, and life for everybody.

46:50

Anyway, I think that this was Re-Imagining,

46:55

and I hope that we could have it continue to remind,

46:58

and I don't know how we are going to do that.

47:00

-

And let's work on it, yes, yes.

47:02

-

And no, I want to tell you about this movement,

47:04

oikostri, and this women, oikostri have three elements

47:07

that are fundamental.

47:10

Ubuntu, that I mentioned to you in Africa.

47:12

But in Asia, it's (foreign term), another movement

47:16

very strong now in Asia.

47:20

Very similar to ubuntu.

47:21

And in Latin America, it's (foreign term)

47:23

(foreign term) means exactly that, life for everybody.

47:27

And then (foreign term) is coming

47:32

form the Quechua Indian language.

47:33

But the good thing is that the three elements,

47:37

one for Africa, one overin Asia, and one for Latin America

47:41

are feeling the same.

47:44

This means God is acting, God is acting.

47:47

That is the reason why I tell the people

47:51

when they are concerned about governments and so on,

47:53

I say, God is acting in history,

47:56

don't be down, always God is acting in history.

47:59

-

That subversive holy spirit.

48:06

-

The subversive holy spirit, and we believe that.

48:08

We the women, we believe that.

48:11

If we don't believe that, it's difficult.

48:13

That is the reason that next year, 2018,

48:16

will be a wonderful year for the celebration

48:21

of the 20 years that we have dedicated

48:24

the churches in solidarity with women.

48:31

But we have how many years of Re-Imagining?

48:35

-

It's the 25th anniversary of Re-Imagining

48:38

-

25th anniversary of Re-Imagining,

48:41

then let us be together.

48:43

-

Absolutely.

48:45

-

To celebrate in Mexico,

first week of October, 20 years of the church

48:48

in solidarity with women, and 23 years of Re-Imagining.

48:52

-

That is wonderful, yes.

48:57

-

And we have Mary Ann Lundy there,

48:58

who will take her free like that to be there.

49:00

So many people that participate in Re-Imagining

49:05

need to be there.

49:07

-

You brought up Mary Ann Lundy,

49:09

could you, I want to hear more about how

49:10

the World Council of Churches, the women

49:12

of the World Council of Churches supported her

49:14

after she was fired.

49:17

-

We supported her very much.

49:18

-

Tell me about that.

-

Well we really supported her, and I would say

49:20

not only women, but men, too,

49:24

because the general secretary said no, she couldn't come.

49:26

Then we were happy that she could be named,

49:30

and she could name deputy and she could return,

49:33

and she could have a place of work.

49:36

And she was wonderful, working with women there,

49:39

and working in the programs

49:42

of the World Council of Churches.

49:43

Yes, I think we pushed the matter.

49:44

This means that we could do many things together

49:48

when we want.

49:54

I remember so many things that we did

49:57

in the World Council of Churches in the women task force

49:59

that it was wonderful, the women together,

50:02

and we have men supporting us, too, there.

50:04

From the very beginning, in the early process

50:08

it's not only women, it's to form

50:10

the community of women and men together.

50:13

This is the idea in our churches, together.

50:15

Not women in this side, and men on the other side,

50:19

women and men together, and maybe this is

50:22

what the Laymen, they did was through the door.

50:24

Women and men together, working for a community,

50:27

for theology for life, and so on.

50:31

Yeah, we support Mary Ann Lundy,

50:33

and she did wonderful work.

50:36

And you need to have some support to go through the work,

50:37

'cause if you're choosing to work

50:40

after you have this black--

50:41

-

Abso-, yes.

50:43

How would you evaluate the ecumenical decade

50:46

of churches in solidarity with women?

50:49

-

It was good, but at the end of the decade,

50:52

we notice that there's a backlash, and there's still--

50:56

-

Against the whole work?

51:00

-

It still is not really what we would like to have.

51:01

It still we have a lot of, yes,

51:05

a lot of things that we need to still get done

51:08

for mind change, even now.

51:10

-

I want to hear that.

51:14

What still needs to be re-imagined,

51:15

what needs to be transformed now?

51:17

-

The Re-Imagining needs to be that the churches

51:19

will accept the theology that women agree.

51:25

Simple as that.

51:30

They are wonderful women theologians all over

51:32

in United States, in Canada, in Germany,

51:35

in Africa, in Cuba, in Latin American and the Caribbean,

51:38

that the church will say, look, this is a gift from God.

51:43

God has given us all these wonderful biblical scholars,

51:48

women, but they are look in The Bible in a different way.

51:53

You see, reading about that, I realized,

51:57

and this will be my sermon, next sermon that I'm going

52:01

to preach over there, you see,

52:03

you go to Exodus one and two.

52:05

At the beginning of Exodus one,

52:10

you have 12 men there, named there, 12.

52:12

But look how wonderful is God, you look to the rest

52:16

of Exodus one and two, there are 12 women.

52:21

Look at God, what God is doing.

52:26

Put 12 men in Exodus one first, and put 12 women there.

52:31

And the 12 women were the women that liberate Moses.

52:37

It means the culture could not be liberated

52:41

if these 12 women were not there.

52:43

-

The midwives.

52:45

-

Shipharh and Puah,

the midwives, then the three that were near Moses,

52:48

the daughter of Pharaoh, the mother, the daughter,

52:54

the sister of Moses.

52:56

Three, we are five.

53:00

And then seven at the end in Exodus two,

53:02

when Moses killed the Egypt, and then he found

53:05

the seven women around the well,

53:08

and then he helped them, and then they took him

53:11

to his father there, seven women taking him

53:15

to save his life over there.

53:20

And then he married Zipporah there,

53:22

one of the seven sisters.

53:25

12 women.

53:32

-

I never realized

it was 12.

53:34

-

12, how God

could do that, only because women are reading

53:38

The Bible in this way,

53:42

and said, okay, 12 men there, they are nice people,

53:44

good people, they did a good job,

53:47

but who saved the life of Moses?

53:50

12 women.

53:52

Then women mostly want a liberator of the country

53:54

of the whole people.

53:59

Then what happened is these 12 women would be not there,

54:02

but God knew, and put the 12 men at the beginning

54:07

of Exodus one, they didn't do too much

54:11

to liberate Moses, and they put the 12 women,

54:15

one after the other, one after the, until the end.

54:19

This is the reading that women, of The Bible,

54:24

that women are doing today.

54:26

This is a threshold, it's a threshold,

54:29

not only to see what happened so many years ago,

54:33

but how to read The Bible in a way that we understand.

54:38

And then of course, we are very grateful

54:42

to Rosemary Radford Fuether,

54:47

to Phillys Trible, to Fiorenza, Elisabeth Fiorenza,

54:50

so many here, and there is De Sola in Germany,

54:55

and many others all over,

54:59

and many Latin American women like Elsa Tamez,

55:01

Ada Maria, to Padilla, the Tanimarez,

55:05

Maria Pilar Aquino from Mexico,

55:09

there's been many women reading The Bible

55:14

in a different way

55:16

Then why not accept that as a gift from God?

55:18

Why should they just say no?

55:22

No, we need to read The Bible with our own eyes.

55:24

Not only that, why not to change liturgy?

55:28

You see in Chile, there is a group of women

55:32

that they are the liberals of the group called Conspirando,

55:34

Conspiration, Conspiration.

55:40

And they renew the liturgy totally.

55:43

There is a house there, the liturgy that they are doing

55:46

is so beautiful, it's like a beautiful Re-Imagining.

55:50

Then you have a group in Brazil that is Mandragora.

55:54

Oh my, the liturgies in this group of Mandragora in Brazil.

55:58

Women are doing a lot of efforts in liturgy,

56:03

bible reading, preaching.

56:06

Preaching, too, liturgy, preaching, that is incredible.

56:08

Then we need to look at all this.

56:13

-

Oh, that is wonderful.

56:18

(background talking off mic)

56:20

In the end, what would you say is the greatest legacy

56:29

of Re-Imagining, the greatest legacy?

56:31

-

The greatest legacy I think that,

56:34

that we continue, that we have dreams of continuing.

56:39

And I think this is a great legacy.

56:49

Dreams to continue.

56:51

If you don't have dreams to continue,

56:53

the transformation and change, you are lost.

56:56

Those are the great legacies that we need to continue.

56:59

Then the best thing that we receive now

57:03

from Re-Imagining is what is the continuation.

57:05

This on me is a blessing.

57:10

And I think this is the legacy.

57:12

This is the great legacy, that they say,

57:14

we did something, that it was good,

57:17

and now we will continue doing,

57:20

and assume that all these women that participate

57:21

in Re-Imagining, they continue going good things.

57:25

Because I did, I did, I did, I did.

57:28

I was a principal of the seminary in Matanzas.

57:32

I changed to the model of leadership in Matanzas

57:36

when I arrived there in 1997,

57:39

after Re-Imagining, all this.

57:41

And then, it was a different model of liturgy.-

57:43

-

How did you change iT?

57:47

-

Non-hierarchical,

not all in Italian.

57:49

A liturgy for consensus of being together

57:51

with the workers, with the professor.

57:55

The model of liturgy was changed totally.

57:58

And then at the same time, I bring to the seminary

58:01

ecological concerns.

58:05

-

You did.

-

We reforested the seminary with many trees.

58:08

We organized an organic vegetable garden

58:12

that is serving the seminary, is serving the whole,

58:16

some hospitals and health care centers, too.

58:20

And we changed to the, not only,

58:23

well, tried to change the ecological concern,

58:29

but we would relate the theological education

58:31

with the civil society.

58:34

To put really theological education in the middle

58:38

of the civil society, that was the reason

58:41

that we built the seminary when I was the owner,

58:43

the chief of the process.

58:50

Then we built a theater, a cultural theater

58:53

one block from the seminary

58:59

that is called Abraham Lincoln Theater

59:02

and we gave this to the community.

59:05

And we have more than 200 children now doing worship,

59:07

no worship, what do you say?

59:11

-

Plays?

59:13

-

Plays, choir,

all this kind of things there,

59:16

and we gave to the community.

59:18

It related theological education with the civil society.

59:21

-

This has been wonderful, is there anything else

59:26

you would like to add before we end?

59:29

-

No, because what I want to tell is if you have

59:31

any more questions, we could communicate,

59:34

I will give you my card.

59:37

-

Thank you.

-

And then maybe I could add more to your presentation.

59:39

I don't know how much I could add, but anyway.

59:44

-

This was absolutely wonderful.

59:46

Thank you so much.

59:48

-

You need to tell

that I am 81 years old.

59:50

-

Are you really?

59:52

-

Yes, I will be 82 next year.

59:53

-

That is hard to imagine.

59:58

-

This means age is not a boundary not to do anything.

1:00:00

I have 81 years old, I organize in 2004

1:00:04

a christening to do for gender studies.

1:00:09

-

Did you?

1:00:12

-

In Cuba.

And this a part of Re-Imagining.

1:00:13

Christening to do gender studies,

1:00:16

then we are doing worships all over the island.

1:00:18

In worship, ask people

1:00:20

how to preach, how to do Bible studies.

1:00:27

At the same time to work with women and men,

1:00:30

because we're working with men now

1:00:33

how to change masculinity concerns.

1:00:36

-

And where exactly is the Institute?

1:00:39

-

The Institute is in Matanzas, where I am.

1:00:41

But we have an office in Havana in the Council of Churches,

1:00:46

and we do worships along the island.

1:00:49

-

That is wonderful.

1:00:52

-

And we have a lot of job people facilitators,

1:00:52

speaking about power and leadership,

1:00:56

self esteem, liturgy, how to change liturgy

1:01:01

in the best way, liturgy, Bible studies,

1:01:07

how to read The Bible with our own eyes.

1:01:11

It's what we call popular reading of The Bible

1:01:14

that we learn from Pablo Fredi, a long time ago,

1:01:18

when he developed the popular reading of The Bible.

1:01:21

And all this, we are doing that to the Christening

1:01:24

to do those gender studies.

1:01:28

I'm still teaching in the seminary, ethics

1:01:31

and theology and gender.

1:01:37

And of course, I had the chance when I was

1:01:40

a principal of the seminary to include

1:01:43

theology and gender in the curriculum.

1:01:45

It's obliged in the curriculum,

1:01:48

it's not something that is option, it's obliged,

1:01:50

everybody needs to take theology and gender.

1:01:52

You would say this is a project of Re-Imagining,

1:01:56

things that I'm doing.

1:01:59

And I suppose that all the women that participated

1:02:00

in Re-Imagining, they are doing things like that.

1:02:02

That is, you have 65 interviews,

1:02:04

you got 65 lives telling you, why I'm doing that,

1:02:07

and I will continue doing that.

1:02:11

-

That is right.

1:02:14

-

Thank you.

-

Thank you.

1:02:15

-

But you could--

Ortega, Ofelia

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Sallie Bingham Center for Women's History & Culture

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