Sauter, Mary Kay / Re-Imagining Collection / Duke Digital Repository

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Okay, well thank you so much Mary Kay.

0:02

I'm gonna start with some background information.

0:05

So could you say your name?

0:07

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Mary Kay Sauter.

0:09

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Great, and are you lay or clergy?

0:10

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Now I'm clergy.

0:13

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Okay, and what denomination?

0:14

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United Church of Christ.

0:16

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Okay, great.

0:18

Where and when were you born Mary Kay?

0:20

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I was born in Minneapolis.

0:22

April 23, 1945.

0:24

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Okay.

0:26

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The bill came to $84.00.

0:27

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(laughing) No, really?

0:29

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I found it going through my parent's things.

0:32

10 days in the hospital.

0:34

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That is incredible.

0:36

Both the cost and the number of days in the hospital.

0:38

That's amazing.

0:41

(both women laugh)

0:42

I love that little tidbit.

0:43

Where did you go to school?

0:45

Graduate or divinity school?

0:46

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I have a B.A. from Bethel.

0:48

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Yes.

0:51

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And an M.B.A.

0:52

from the University of North Dakota.

0:53

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Oh!

0:55

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And an MDiv from here

0:56

at United Theological Seminary.

0:58

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Oh, very interesting!

1:00

Okay, you said now you're ordained.

1:02

So, this was at a later point in your life

1:04

you went to seminary?

1:07

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I was in seminary

1:08

while the Re-Imagining happened.

1:10

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Oh, okay.

1:13

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I started in 1991,

1:14

and graduated in 1995.

1:16

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Okay, okay.

1:18

Very interesting. Alright.

1:20

So, well I think you're starting to answer this.

1:22

So this is what you were doing during,

1:24

you were at school.

1:26

Were you doing any other kind of work?

1:27

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No, I was just going to school.

1:28

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Yeah, that was probably enough (laughs).

1:30

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It was, yes.

1:32

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And what work or ministry did you do

1:33

after Re-Imagining?

1:35

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I went into interim ministry.

1:36

I'd had one semester of school left,

1:40

and in one week,

1:43

had a sense of call to do interims.

1:45

And first week in seminary,

1:48

I learned about process theology.

1:51

So people would ask me, "What are you going to do

1:53

"when you graduate?"

1:55

And I'd say, "I don't know.

1:56

"I'm becoming who I will be when I need to decide."

1:57

And like I said, in that one week,

2:01

it became very clear that I was called to do interim.

2:03

So I had never even heard of 'em

2:06

before I came to seminary.

2:08

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If you don't mind my asking,

2:10

that's so fascinating,

2:11

what about interim ministry,

2:12

what about it called you?

2:14

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I grew up a minister's kid, slash army brat.

2:18

And was very used to going into new situations,

2:23

and loved going into new situations and meeting people.

2:27

I felt the M.B.A would be a big help in the analysis

2:31

and looking at finances,

2:36

looking at how things are done.

2:39

I am a five on the enneagram, and we analyze.

2:41

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Is that right?

2:46

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Yeah.

2:47

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Yes, yes.

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We are the analyzers,

2:48

and a big difference is that I'm an extrovert analyzer,

2:50

and most aren't.

2:53

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Oh, interesting.

2:54

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So, not only did I analyze,

2:55

but I had to share it.

2:58

(both women laugh)

3:00

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That sounds like a good interim minister!

3:03

So did you do this at a number of churches?

3:06

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Eight different churches,

3:08

and on the conference staff

3:10

for the Minnesota Conference of the UCC.

3:12

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Oh, okay.

3:15

Very interesting. Wow.

3:16

So how and when did you first become aware

3:18

of feminist theology?

3:21

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Oh, at seminary I think.

3:25

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That's it.

3:27

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Yeah.

3:28

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Yeah.

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I think I had always figured

3:29

there was more to the whole thing

3:32

than what we'd been taught.

3:33

But I think to put a name to it

3:37

and have it be something, it was probably seminary.

3:38

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Mhmm.

3:41

And did you resonate with it immediately?

3:42

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Oh yeah.

3:44

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Mhmm.

3:45

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Yup.

3:45

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Yeah.

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Yeah, very clearly.

3:46

It was, well of course.

3:48

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Yes.

3:50

(both women laugh)

3:51

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Of course.

3:53

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Yes, yes.

3:54

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And I think that,

3:55

doing feminist theology,

3:58

then it was like, well of course.

4:00

Then there's all these other people

4:03

who can do theology as well

4:05

out of their lives and their experience just like women.

4:08

So it broadened it even more.

4:13

It wasn't just men and women.

4:15

It was various races, various economic groups,

4:17

everybody, gays and lesbians.

4:23

Everybody can do theology out of their experience.

4:26

So, it expanded it even more.

4:28

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Yes, wow.

4:30

Well should we talk about your relationship

4:34

to the Re-Imagining community?

4:36

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Sure, sure (laughing).

4:37

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And could you tell me about,

4:38

what was your relationship?

4:39

What kind of roles did you play?

4:40

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I don't remember how I first got into it.

4:43

I'm sure it was through the UCC.

4:46

But they wanted somebody to be there from the UCC,

4:48

and so I was very interested in being a part of it.

4:52

I remember going to meetings

4:58

and then they were looking for co-chairs.

4:59

And they had asked Kathy Austin Molly to be a co-chair.

5:03

And I didn't wait to be asked.

5:07

I volunteered (laughs).

5:11

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Oh, wow.

5:13

What led you to volunteer?

5:14

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I like organizing.

5:19

I like the process of meetings.

5:20

I like going to meetings.

5:25

I suppose a call to do it.

5:27

So, I just went up to Sally Hill

5:33

and said, "I'd like to be the other co-chair."

5:35

I don't know if she would ever have asked me.

5:39

I don't know if it was a good decision (laughs).

5:41

But I was glad to be a part of it

5:44

and to be leading the group.

5:47

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So what was that experience like?

5:50

Being a co-chair for that '93 conference?

5:52

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Well, it was quite amazing.

5:57

Sally of course carried the bulk

6:02

of the responsibility in contacting people.

6:05

We'd shared the meetings,

6:09

we met and talked ourselves with Sally

6:11

about things that needed to be done.

6:15

I think even more so at the conference itself.

6:18

We were at a very different conference than anybody else.

6:25

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Say some more about that.

6:30

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When spur of the moment decisions

6:36

needed to be made,

6:39

we were often the ones contacted to make them.

6:41

When negotiations needed to take place,

6:45

we were the ones doing the negotiating.

6:50

Now other people might have been as well,

6:52

but as co-chairs we found ourselves often in that role.

6:55

So, when, and we mentioned this before,

7:00

but when a couple of the speakers couldn't be understood

7:06

that were doing the liturgy.

7:12

We eventually negotiated,

7:16

what they came up with the idea as to how to fix it,

7:19

which was then fixed.

7:22

But we were the ones going between people often.

7:23

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Yes.

7:28

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Between those who wanted it one way,

7:29

and those who wanted it another way (laughs).

7:31

The other ones,

7:34

when the lesbian women decided that they wanted to come out

7:35

to celebrate being lesbians.

7:42

It was Kathy and I that were going back and forth

7:44

negotiating between them and with the rest of the board.

7:46

Because everybody wasn't necessarily

7:52

ready for that.

7:56

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Yeah.

7:57

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Even the board members weren't, so we--

7:58

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So during the conference,

8:00

while this is going on,

8:01

you're trying to talk to individual board members

8:02

and work this out?

8:05

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Yup.

8:06

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Wow (laughs).

8:07

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Yeah.

8:08

Yeah, because Kris Smith,

8:08

I don't know if you're going to interview her, but--

8:12

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I could, I haven't.

8:14

Yeah, I could.

8:15

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Because she was a speaker at the event.

8:16

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Yes, right.

8:18

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And she had been Methodist,

8:19

was now I think becoming UCC someplace in there.

8:22

But she was speaking,

8:26

and while she was speaking,

8:27

she was going to come out to everybody.

8:29

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Oh, yes.

8:31

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To the whole world.

8:32

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Yes.

8:33

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But before that happened,

8:35

a day before that happened,

8:36

if my memory is right,

8:38

a group of lesbian women decided they wanted to--

8:40

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All come.

8:44

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Either, like I said,

8:45

affirm who they were, or some of them to come out.

8:47

And it was a break in the flow of the event.

8:52

So there were different arguments about it.

8:58

Some were saying, "Well, if we let them, then who else?"

9:01

Some were saying, "But we've mapped this all out.

9:04

"We have a flow to this.

9:07

"It's gonna break the flow."

9:08

Some were saying, "But we as a board didn't vote on this.

9:10

"We didn't decide about this."

9:13

And so we just kept all morning long negotiating it out

9:15

with various people,

9:20

until everybody agreed that it would be okay to do.

9:21

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And do you recall what were the reasons

9:24

for why to do it?

9:26

What was the persuasive?

9:27

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Well I think it was mainly, how can we not?

9:29

They're our sisters.

9:33

We believe in letting people have control

9:36

over their own lives.

9:41

We believe in affirming who people are, our differences.

9:43

And it would be interesting to me,

9:49

and I thought about this before,

9:51

if we hadn't been in that moment,

9:53

in that time,

9:58

in that intensity,

9:59

needing to make a decision one way or the other.

10:01

If we had had months and months and months to ponder it

10:04

and to figure it out,

10:08

what would we have done?

10:09

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Oh, interesting.

10:10

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Would we have come to the same conclusion?

10:12

Or would we have been had enough voices from denominations

10:14

where it wasn't okay at that time,

10:20

that we would've said no.

10:23

I don't know.

10:24

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Interesting, yeah.

10:25

Very interesting.

10:26

Do you have some other strong memories?

10:28

Those are really good memories.

10:30

They're really important memories.

10:31

Are there other things that you,

10:32

were really important to you?

10:34

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I think it was the round tables,

10:39

was a big deal.

10:43

I think moving people around from one place to another.

10:44

And I couldn't tell you,

10:48

maybe they know whose idea some of these were.

10:50

The round tables to me is just a no-brainer

10:52

for any kind of meeting.

10:55

You're in closer proximity,

10:57

and eyeball to eyeball with people.

10:59

But it grew out of our meetings

11:02

that we would do these things.

11:06

And having the speakers in the middle,

11:08

then moving people around became important

11:12

because otherwise people would always be in the back.

11:15

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Right.

11:19

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So now they were also in the front.

11:20

And so we took the time

11:22

to move everything from a table to the next one,

11:24

or people carried it from one spot to another.

11:27

But it was all organized.

11:31

And it has to do with people like Jo Ringgenberg

11:33

and Mary Gates who are just incredible organizers.

11:36

Oh, detail people that you would not believe with energy,

11:41

and they were just amazing in what they did.

11:46

So on the committee there were people

11:50

who were doing all these creative,

11:52

well everybody had creative thoughts.

11:54

Everybody had input.

11:56

That was what we felt was important,

11:57

was everybody to have input into things.

11:59

Then there were big picture people.

12:03

And then there were detail people.

12:05

(both women laugh)

12:07

And we desperately needed each other

12:08

to get through that whole thing.

12:10

I think the worship services were,

12:13

Madeleine Sue Martin is absolutely

12:18

an incredible liturgist and ritualist,

12:20

and just amazing.

12:24

And I felt fortunate after the event

12:27

to have a class from her.

12:30

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Did you?

12:32

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Yeah, and it was very fortunate to do that.

12:33

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Yeah, yes.

12:36

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But she, and the group that she had,

12:36

just wove together these beautiful services.

12:38

And I think I told you before that at one point,

12:43

that first evening Kris Smith came up to me

12:48

and she said, "You have people from all over the world here

12:50

"and they are exhausted.

12:53

"You can't keep going."

12:56

So I took it on myself to just,

12:58

I felt graciously, and--

13:04

(both women laugh)

13:05

and with ritual at a natural kind of breaking point

13:07

to end it

13:11

for the evening.

13:13

It was a tough call,

13:15

and I think if I had been involved in creating

13:17

that service it would've been even tougher call to do.

13:22

I knew they felt a need to do it

13:29

at some later point themselves.

13:31

Those who had created it.

13:33

And I felt bad about it,

13:35

but I trusted Kris.

13:37

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Right. Yeah, yeah.

13:41

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But it was all,

13:44

it was just absolutely amazing.

13:45

I think another was being able

13:47

to introduce Chung Hyun Kyung.

13:50

In her book, Inheriting Our Mothers' Gardens.

13:57

There's a place where she talks about

14:01

eating apples under Eve's tree.

14:03

And I read that before the event,

14:06

and there was something within me that was freed.

14:12

From reading that.

14:19

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Say, say--

14:20

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I just felt a freeing of my spirit,

14:21

from reading that one paragraph.

14:28

That maybe the Eve story

14:33

had been so indoctrinated in my head,

14:36

but suddenly it was, "wow."

14:40

That was, we don't have to get all serious

14:43

about that particular story.

14:47

We can let it go.

14:50

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Yeah.

14:51

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We can let it go.

It's garbage.

14:53

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Uh-huh.

14:54

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So then, how many other stories

14:56

can we let go (laughs)?

14:57

And they're also just garbage,

15:00

and oppression of women.

15:02

And I mean I wasn't thinking that as I read it.

15:04

It was just this, "Oh."

15:07

So, she was the one person

15:12

I wanted to introduce.

15:14

We had took turns, and various people had introduced,

15:15

but she was the one I wanted to introduce.

15:18

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That is great.

15:21

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So I told people that story.

15:22

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Yes.

15:25

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About, what that's meant to me.

15:26

The next day, she took a bite out of an apple.

15:30

And I think she had planned that all along.

15:34

I don't think what I said made a difference.

15:36

But she had a basket of apples.

15:37

I think Manly brought 'em up or something.

15:40

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Yes.

15:42

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He talks about that.

15:43

She took a big bite out of it.

15:44

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And that became important

15:46

in the community after that.

15:46

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Yes.

15:48

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Important symbol.

15:49

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Mhmm.

15:50

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Yeah, yeah.

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Yeah.

15:51

So I think those are probably

15:52

the high points of doing it all.

15:55

It was just a very spiritual event,

15:59

I don't think I went to any of the groups.

16:04

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The workshops or anything?

16:09

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The workshops.

16:10

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Yeah, yeah.

16:11

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But the people I heard were in the big plenary.

16:12

But I didn't make it to any others.

16:15

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You were busy doing all this other stuff.

16:16

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Right, right.

16:18

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Yeah, yes.

Well I'm curious if we could talk

16:20

about the backlash for a moment.

16:22

When that happened, were you surprised,

16:24

and were you effected by it directly?

16:26

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We knew it was coming out.

16:30

Before the event took place,

16:34

within the Presbyterian Church.

16:37

There was enough noise being made.

16:39

I think if they could've,

16:42

they would like to have stopped it from happening

16:44

in the first place.

16:46

I think we were surprised at how quickly

16:48

everything happened,

16:51

like immediately.

16:52

I think,

16:55

the day that conference took place

16:56

they mailed the letters out.

16:58

And they went not just to each church,

17:00

but to every single person in the denomination

17:02

got a letter about this abomination,

17:06

and what we had done.

17:10

It took things out of context.

17:12

I don't have a copy of the letter

17:13

and I don't remember what it said.

17:15

But, must be one around someplace.

17:16

But just talked about how awful we were,

17:18

and how awful the whole thing was.

17:23

And we also knew that

17:25

the Institute for Religion and Democracy

17:26

was involved with it.

17:28

I met the reporter.

17:31

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Oh you did?

17:32

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A woman from there.

17:33

Yes, who was there.

17:34

The one who later wrote that we locked the doors,

17:36

kept everybody in,

17:40

and made people go through various rituals

17:42

and that the implication

17:46

was the rituals were bad and something.

17:47

Some woman among,

17:50

that was their reporting for the IRD.

17:53

That then-network, the Good News from your denomination,

17:57

went after people.

18:03

So we were ready to some degree.

18:06

We knew something was going to happen.

18:08

I think we were, the surprise was how vicious it was.

18:11

How untruthful parts of it were.

18:18

How there was no conversation, no dialogue.

18:22

This is it.

18:27

We've made the decision that what they did was bad.

18:27

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Right. Yeah, yeah.

18:31

So when you think back about the forming of the community,

18:33

what do you remember about the decision?

18:38

Well first of all,

18:41

what kind of response you were gonna make?

18:42

The group was gonna make?

18:44

And then how that led to the community being formed.

18:46

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Well, again having,

18:49

I think the analyzing mind.

18:53

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Yes (laughs).

18:55

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For me it was pretty clear

18:57

that we had two choices to make.

18:59

Either we would take on the IRD,

19:02

and the layman and everybody,

19:06

and try and duke it out with them.

19:08

Or we would do nothing,

19:11

I guess there were three choices.

19:14

Do nothing, just quit.

19:15

Or we could continue on with what we had been doing.

19:17

And do it well.

19:22

And in my thinking we didn't have the resources

19:27

to go after the IRD.

19:29

We didn't have the money.

19:31

We didn't have the support.

19:33

We didn't have anything.

19:35

That all we had was who we were.

19:37

And to do what we had done the best we could

19:40

into the future, for me,

19:44

it was kind of a no-brainer.

19:46

I think for some others it was a harder decision

19:48

to make to do that instead.

19:51

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Instead of what would they have wanted?

19:54

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To duke it out with them--

19:57

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To duke it out. Yeah, yeah.

19:58

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To take 'em on.

20:00

Particularly those who are Presbyterian.

20:02

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Yes.

20:04

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And I understand that.

20:05

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Right.

20:06

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I totally understand that.

20:06

So we had many conversations for awhile about it.

20:09

In the meantime hearing more stuff that was coming out.

20:13

Like I mentioned the other day

20:17

the group of them,

20:20

Presbyterians were getting together

20:24

for a national meeting.

20:26

Not their big summer thing that they have,

20:27

but another meeting to talk about things.

20:30

At which point, all the people received letters saying,

20:32

"If you're told to sit around tables,

20:35

"insist that you line up in rows.

20:36

"Because you lose power if you sit around a round table."

20:39

And we laughed about that.

20:42

We just said, "Well that's just crazy."

20:44

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Yeah.

20:46

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That's just crazy.

20:47

What are they talking about?

20:48

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Yeah.

20:49

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So to me, I was (laughs),

20:50

it didn't make sense some of what they were saying.

20:54

They were seeking power.

21:00

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Yeah.

21:02

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They were all seeking power.

21:03

And I think for the IRD it was to shut down

21:04

the mainline denominations from their social justice,

21:09

kind of agendas.

21:12

The more progressive politics that went along

21:16

with many in the mainline.

21:20

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Mhmm.

21:21

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Social justice.

21:22

I mean I'm not speaking for all the mainline churches

21:24

because they're very conservative people,

21:26

and some of our mainline churches also.

21:29

But I think generally they were seen

21:31

as being more progressive.

21:34

Needed to be shut down some.

21:37

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Mhmm, mhmm.

21:38

Yeah, yeah.

21:40

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Yeah.

21:41

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Yeah.

-

So, again,

21:42

we didn't have the resources to take 'em on.

21:44

But I also felt like it was just kind of a woman's way

21:46

of doing things to just keep on doing what we do well.

21:51

And be strong in it and clear,

21:55

and be who we are.

21:57

Rather than go get into a boxing match with somebody

21:59

and use up our resources in that way.

22:04

It just, to me it didn't make any sense.

22:07

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Yeah, yeah.

22:10

So, you stayed involved then in Re-Imagining,

22:12

what else did you do after that '93 conference?

22:14

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Well, I continued on as chair,

22:18

and I can't remember,

22:22

I continued on longer than Kathy did.

22:24

By then I was ordained,

22:28

and I was ordained in '95,

22:31

and was doing an intermountain mount video.

22:33

And so I would drive in for things

22:37

with meetings, and I kept the books.

22:39

-

Did you? (laughs)

22:44

-

Yeah, we didn't have computers to do it.

22:44

While we were there we did get a computer to do it.

22:46

We incorporated ourselves so we were no longer a part

22:50

of the Counsels of Churches.

22:54

We were our own entity.

22:56

We had an office space in the church center.

22:58

We had a a part-time office person.

23:03

And we decided then to keep doing the conferences.

23:07

The book that Nancy and Pam came out with

23:12

was signed up at that time,

23:16

and so they started working on that.

23:19

Sally was still involved, but not as a staff person.

23:22

-

Not as a staff person for the Counsel of Churches?

23:26

-

No, she was still staff

23:28

for the Counsel of Churches,

23:29

but not for Re-Imagining.

23:30

-

I see, okay.

23:32

-

In particular.

-

I see. Yeah, yeah.

23:33

So were you involved the whole 10 years of Re-Imagining?

23:35

-

No, no I didn't stay involved.

23:39

Doing interims out of state,

23:45

they were mainly out state where I was doing them.

23:47

So I think I was around maybe for a couple years,

23:50

and then turned it over.

23:53

There were many others

23:55

that wanted to be involved.

23:57

-

Well, now, you're a really important person

23:59

in terms of bringing Re-Imagining back

24:01

and reincorporating it.

24:03

Getting it going again.

24:06

-

You know I was thinking

24:07

about that the other day.

24:08

That as far as contributions,

24:10

that's probably a bigger contribution

24:15

than what I did before (laughs).

24:17

-

How interesting.

24:18

Say more about that.

24:19

That's interesting.

24:20

-

Well.

I think we were all sad when it ended.

24:26

Understood, and it was okay.

24:29

But it was just Nadine and I at Plymouth Church.

24:33

We're both members at Plymouth

24:36

who realized it had been 20 years,

24:38

why not have a reunion?

24:42

It wasn't with the idea of

24:44

reincorporating and to keep going.

24:47

It was just,

24:51

let's get together.

24:52

And so, it was fun to see people again.

24:54

And get to know what people have been doing.

24:58

And somehow then we realized that it wasn't over.

25:03

So this smaller group then decided to keep going.

25:08

And, we didn't know what we would do.

25:14

It was just, "Well, let's see."

25:17

I think I've said this before,

25:20

it was Kathy Austin Molly who said,

25:21

"Well the last thing it needs

25:22

"is a bunch of 70, 80 and 90 year olds."

25:23

So then it became a matter of, I thought,

25:26

"Well, social media, nobody knows how old we are."

25:32

And let's figure out how to turn it over.

25:36

Then we all started talking about those things.

25:39

How do we turn it over?

25:43

And we would not be doing what we're doing

25:45

if you hadn't gotten us sabbatical.

25:49

We would not be, I can't imagine where we would be.

25:52

But the contacts that you're making

25:55

and the things that you're doing.

25:57

So all I can imagine,

25:59

is that God is in the mix somehow.

26:02

Again, process theology, we could all say "no."

26:09

-

Yeah.

26:12

-

Or it wouldn't be condemned to hell,

26:13

but I'll be fine.

26:17

But I think if we're open to what God,

26:18

what She wants.

26:25

-

Yeah.

26:26

-

And that's what's happening.

26:28

-

Mhmm, mhmm.

26:30

-

There's such a great group

26:31

that's stuck with it and stayed there,

26:32

and everybody can't make it all the time.

26:34

But for the most part,

26:37

there's such a commitment there.

26:39

And it's kinda nice knowing there's these other people

26:42

who are out there that when ya see 'em

26:45

are encouraging and supportive.

26:48

And then it's expanding out into other organizations

26:51

like you've found.

26:54

-

Yes.

26:56

-

The seminaries,

26:57

and the organizations,

26:59

and we have to do it.

27:03

It's like now we cannot not do it.

27:04

-

Right, yeah.

27:07

-

We have to do it.

27:08

-

Yes, yeah.

27:09

-

Whatever it is.

27:10

(both women laugh)

27:11

-

It's in process, right?

27:12

-

It's a process.

27:13

And it will unfold.

27:14

It will get there.

27:16

-

Yeah.

27:17

You know you've been an important person

27:20

with the beginning, and now at this moment.

27:20

How would you define Re-Imagining?

27:23

-

Re-Imagining is,

27:35

in and of itself,

27:40

is a safe place.

27:42

-

Hmm.

27:44

-

It is a safe place.

27:46

For women of all walks of life,

27:50

and men as well,

27:53

to think about what it means to be in a relationship

27:56

with something that's bigger than we are.

28:06

Whatever you want to call it.

28:12

God is the word that works for me,

28:15

just because it's short and covers so many things.

28:17

It's a safe place for people to explore what it means

28:24

to be a person of faith.

28:34

-

Yeah.

28:35

-

What it means to be a woman person of faith.

28:37

What it means to be a gay woman person of faith,

28:41

a black gay woman person of faith.

28:44

Every possibility you can imagine, we don't have to agree.

28:47

We don't have to come to a doctrine.

28:53

We don't have to promise that we're going to adhere

28:56

to this belief for the rest of our lives even.

29:00

I could change my mind tomorrow about something.

29:04

It freed me to come to my own conclusions

29:09

about what Jesus' life meant,

29:14

and about atonement.

29:18

Which I don't believe in.

29:20

Jesus didn't have to die on the cross for us

29:23

to have a relationship with God.

29:26

Sacrifices don't have to be made.

29:30

They might be made because of choices people make.

29:34

But they don't have to be made.

29:38

There's no glory in a sacrifice.

29:41

It might happen right?

29:44

So I think it freed me up to find,

29:48

and I think that's what it's about,

29:52

is finding a life-giving theology,

29:54

a love-giving theology,

29:59

a justice-seeking theology,

30:03

an understanding of a God who wants that

30:06

for all of creation, whatever that may be.

30:09

So, sermon.

30:13

(both women laugh)

30:15

-

Preach it!

30:17

-

Yeah!

30:18

-

How would you say that feminist theology

30:22

effected the way the community was structured

30:23

and functioned?

30:26

-

Well we,

30:31

were very intentional about things being relational.

30:36

Whether it was our meetings

30:42

where we checked in ahead of time,

30:44

and learned about each other,

30:46

and commiserated with each other.

30:48

Oh, those kind of things.

30:53

Yeah it was mainly about relationships

31:00

and making those happen.

31:02

Again, the round tables,

31:06

that was about relationships.

31:08

Moving people around, scribbling.

31:10

It was about the flow of your spirit

31:12

in some way coming out.

31:16

The worship services,

31:18

that we blessed each of the speakers when they came forward.

31:21

That was about the relationship piece again.

31:25

And a relationship with God,

31:30

and with the people who were there,

31:32

and the people who were speaking.

31:35

So, I think feminism to me is many different things,

31:36

a wide variety of things.

31:42

But when you say feminist theology,

31:44

then that's about relationships.

31:46

And I think that's what we put forward as a priority.

31:51

And I think that when we were negotiating

31:57

about the lesbians,

31:59

that too, it was about relationships.

32:02

And we developed relationships.

32:05

I remember Kathy and I standing,

32:06

leaning back against a wall as they did their thing.

32:10

We weren't a part of what happened.

32:13

They had the power and the control to do

32:15

what they wanted to do.

32:18

We just stood there smiling.

32:20

(both women laugh)

32:23

And we look at each other,

32:25

and we smile some more.

32:26

And it just felt, it felt so right.

32:29

And again, it's the relationships.

32:31

That's what it's about.

32:33

-

Exactly. Yeah, yeah.

32:35

I love that image.

32:38

What challenges would you say were faced by the community

32:41

during it's existence?

32:44

And how were they addressed?

32:45

-

Hmm.

32:49

Well, as with every organization,

32:53

just to get this off the table.

32:56

There was always money issues.

32:57

-

Yes.

32:59

-

And so we just kept asking people for money,

33:01

and there were some who were generous and kind.

33:06

Many, many who gave of course what they could.

33:10

But there were some who could give more.

33:13

So that, and then the Presbyterians

33:15

gave quite a bit of money for the first event.

33:21

But see again, it was all part of this much bigger thing.

33:24

The Decade for Women, Churches in Solidarity with Women,

33:27

that was a big deal internationally.

33:33

So this was just a piece of it.

33:38

Probably the biggest piece that happened

33:40

in the United States I would venture a guess.

33:42

And so they put money into it,

33:46

more so than others did.

33:51

So then that was also used against them.

33:52

So, the money piece is an issue.

33:57

It was hard to hear people who were hurt

34:13

by their denominations because of the event.

34:18

-

Yeah.

34:21

-

So I think that was a difficult piece for us.

34:23

Even moving forward it was, "How many more people

34:28

"are gonna get hurt if we do this?"

34:31

-

Right.

34:34

-

But that's been the story from the beginning.

34:36

So we still kept going.

34:44

I think it was shifting gears then.

34:48

That was probably the next big,

34:52

shifting gears to going long term.

34:54

What does that mean?

34:56

It means incorporating it.

34:58

It means having our own staff.

34:59

It means having our own office space.

35:01

It means phone number.

35:03

It means--

35:05

(both women laugh)

35:06

All these different things that had to be done.

35:08

So it was just the nuts and bolts of being an organization.

35:13

And wanting at the same time to keep the big picture.

35:18

And there were those who

35:22

were really good at putting events together,

35:25

and knowing who to invite and where to find people.

35:30

So they did that really well.

35:33

But again, it was getting the space,

35:35

getting the people,

35:38

putting everything together for each of them.

35:39

Probably a sense of a need to live up to expectations.

35:44

-

Say some more about that.

35:51

-

Well, that had been

35:52

a big blowout event in 1993.

35:53

-

Right.

35:56

-

How do we match that?

35:57

How can we live up to that

35:58

when it's not going to be like that?

36:00

-

Right.

36:02

-

And so it was coming to terms

36:03

with what it could be,

36:04

and what we could have it be,

36:06

and hope that people still wanted to be a part of it.

36:08

-

Yeah, and when you said

36:12

"keeping the big picture in mind",

36:13

what was the big picture?

36:15

-

Oh I think to continue to have this safe place

36:18

for women, all kinds of women,

36:22

to do their explorations, their questioning,

36:26

their wondering,

36:30

their processing.

36:30

-

Yeah. Mhmm, mhmm.

36:35

-

Yeah.

36:37

-

Yeah.

36:38

-

Just one other little piece.

36:40

-

Of course.

36:41

-

We were challenged by what people said

36:43

at any of the events.

36:46

So the challenge is a piece

36:48

of that questioning and all.

36:49

But, I mentioned something to Kris Smith once

36:51

about how great they all did,

36:54

and how wonderful it was,

36:57

and they challenged us all.

36:59

And her comment was, "No, you challenged us first.

37:00

"You challenged us to do something more."

37:07

-

Wow. Wow.

37:11

-

That's I think pretty significant.

37:15

-

Absolutely.

37:17

-

And we didn't realize that.

37:19

-

Yes. Yeah.

37:20

Wow, that was an important thing to say.

37:23

-

Yeah.

37:25

-

Yeah, yeah.

Wow.

37:27

Mary Kay, you think about this.

37:29

What was most significant to you

37:31

about Re-Imagining and why?

37:35

-

Oh my.

37:37

Well as I'm pondering different words,

37:48

the one that grips me is faithfulness.

37:51

-

Hmm.

37:57

Say some more about that, that's a powerful word.

38:00

-

I think it had to do with

38:06

God being in the mix.

38:11

Wanting us to do what we did,

38:14

wanting me to do what I did.

38:15

And that's the piece that continues on now,

38:19

is to keep at it.

38:23

I think faithfulness,

38:30

in doing it, in being a part of it.

38:34

But then faithfulness in continuing on

38:36

in sermons that I preach

38:40

or classes I held to lift up those same things

38:42

that have been lifted up

38:47

and were being lifted up.

38:48

So, I don't know why,

38:51

but that's the word that comes to my mind is--

38:54

-

Yeah.

38:57

-

And not just my faithfulness,

38:59

but everybody who is involved and was there.

39:01

Everybody's faithfulness.

39:05

-

That's a great word.

39:07

-

Yeah.

39:08

-

Yeah.

39:09

Yeah, yeah.

39:10

Did your involvement in Re-Imaging change your perspective

39:14

on feminist theology or the church?

39:17

-

Another reason I went into interims,

39:29

was that I'm rather cynical about the church

39:33

to start out with.

39:35

Having a dad as a minister,

39:38

I knew churches at their best and their worst.

39:43

And didn't know,

39:48

I figured short times in churches,

39:51

I would be gone before--

39:54

(both women laugh)

39:56

Like I'd learn about the nastiness,

39:59

and I'd learn about what their issues were.

40:01

But I could help them deal with it

40:02

rather than have have to live with 'em for 10 years or so.

40:04

So, I'd always probably,

40:09

as an adult anyway been rather cynical about the church.

40:13

So all this did was--

40:16

(both women laugh)

40:18

Affirm my cynicism,

40:21

and again the disconnect that creates my cynicism,

40:23

is how can we believe in a loving God

40:26

and treat each other so un-lovingly?

40:31

-

Yeah.

40:34

How can we do that?

40:35

-

Yeah.

40:36

-

And we keep doing that all the time.

40:37

And as far as feminist theology,

40:39

I think it took

40:48

anybody who's not a straight white male

40:53

to break open

40:59

the theologies into more

41:03

than what they have become.

41:08

Because,

41:12

straight white males just don't question what's there.

41:16

It's just part of who they are,

41:21

and it's always been that way.

41:23

So when other people start to break away and say,

41:25

"Have you thought about it this way?"

41:29

Or, "Why don't you consider this?"

41:30

It's revolutionary,

41:38

and it needs to happen 'cause the scriptures,

41:41

the teachings of Jesus,

41:45

the love of God,

41:48

the wisdom of Sophia is also revolutionary.

41:49

Unless you just stand still.

41:55

In one spot.

41:58

We can't do that.

42:01

-

You're preachin' a good message there.

42:07

(both women laugh)

42:08

Do you have ideas about contributions

42:12

that Re-Imagining made to feminist theology

42:14

and or liturgy?

42:17

Specific contributions.

42:20

-

I think we all wish it had made more,

42:27

that there was more inclusive language used,

42:31

that men preachers would be using more

42:36

of the women's stories from the Bible to preach

42:43

about justice, about God's love.

42:47

So I think it wasn't as big as we'd hoped it would be.

42:53

And part of that was a backlash,

43:00

it's so tragic that people then began to live in fear.

43:02

Now I'm in a denomination where I felt nothing.

43:09

I was just fine.

43:14

There might've been some people in churches,

43:16

but it would be up to a local church

43:18

to make a decision about a minister.

43:21

-

Right.

43:23

-

Nobody else can decide that.

43:24

-

Yes.

43:26

-

So, I didn't feel anything.

43:27

And we're a pretty progressive denomination anyway.

43:30

-

Right.

43:34

-

Ordaining the first woman

43:34

in the United States in 1852.

43:36

-

Mhmm.

43:39

-

So, yeah...

43:40

-

Yup, well let's end

43:52

by looking toward the future.

43:55

And you're really involved in that future,

43:56

which is wonderful.

43:58

What do you think is the greatest legacy

44:00

of the Re-Imagining community?

44:02

-

I think someday in the future,

44:16

people are going to be listening to

44:24

some of the tapes and all that we're archiving.

44:30

-

Yes.

44:34

-

And, I hope they're saying,

44:35

"Well of course.

44:40

"What's so big about that?"

44:45

-

Right.

44:47

-

"It's just what we do."

44:48

Rather than, "How dare they

44:50

"have said those things back then."

44:53

(both women laugh)

44:55

And I'm not certain where it's going.

44:56

-

Yeah, yeah.

44:59

-

So I think we need to

45:03

do what we're gonna be doing

45:06

to ensure that that one possibility is that we stay here.

45:08

(both women laugh)

45:12

-

At least can go that direction, right?

45:14

-

Right, right, right.

45:15

Now what was your question about?

45:16

-

About the greatest legacy.

45:17

-

So I think it's that we did it.

45:20

-

Yeah.

45:21

-

And I almost wonder as people look back on it,

45:24

that group in the future that says, "Well of course.

45:29

"So what was the big deal?

45:33

"Why did anybody react that way to it?"

45:35

But if they hadn't reacted the way they did,

45:40

we might've had the one event and then nothing else.

45:45

-

Yeah, mhmm.

45:48

That's right.

45:51

-

So, I think the legacy is

45:52

that we did something at that point in time

45:55

that was freeing enough and shocking enough,

45:57

that the oppressors didn't want it out of the bag.

46:02

And because of that,

46:08

something more happened

46:10

as far as wanting to get rid of that oppression.

46:11

-

Right, mhmm.

46:16

-

And now we're back at it again.

46:18

-

Right.

46:21

-

Does that?

46:21

-

Oh yes, yes.

46:22

That's really good, that's really good.

46:23

And I know you're really involved in this.

46:26

Thinking about Re-Imagining today,

46:28

what are your thoughts about,

46:31

what does it mean to Re-Imagine today?

46:33

As we're passing it on, what does it mean?

46:35

-

I don't know.

46:38

And in some ways that's the exciting piece about it,

46:40

is not knowing.

46:45

And part of it is that I've been,

46:48

I meant the president of our denomination

46:54

is very much into the whole millennial thing,

46:56

and the church 3.0.

46:59

We've talked about, again,

47:04

being more diverse and younger.

47:09

And the millennialists, and Black Lives Matter,

47:13

and all these pieces that are out there somehow.

47:18

How do we fit into that?

47:26

How do we...

47:29

How do we let happen what needs to happen?

47:33

How do we encourage what needs to happen, to happen?

47:37

When we don't know what it looks like.

47:41

We don't know what it means.

47:45

I don't, and I've read books.

47:48

I'm doing a variety of things

47:51

but I don't know what church 3.0 is going to look like.

47:54

-

So what can we do?

48:01

What are we doing to try to make it happen?

48:03

-

Well I think part of it is

48:05

hoping to get some younger people on board.

48:08

-

Right.

48:11

-

The webpage is going to make a big difference.

48:11

The work we're doing with seminaries,

48:15

where there are hopefully some of these millennialists

48:17

who are going to seminary and graduating.

48:20

Who will be part of whatever is going to be taking place

48:23

20 or 30 years ago,

48:26

and again what we need to do

48:27

is build relationships with 'em.

48:28

We have to build the relationships with them

48:32

and we have to be able to say to them,

48:33

"We're not trying to get you to create what we did.

48:37

"We don't want you to recreate what we did.

48:40

"We want to be midwives to whatever may be next,

48:44

"and we're here for you.

48:54

"But not to tell you what it needs to be."

48:58

But we have to get those relationships built first.

49:02

-

Right.

49:05

-

And just as we built relationships

49:06

among ourselves when we put together the 1993 event,

49:08

and each of the ones that followed.

49:12

I thing the 2018, 25th anniversary piece

49:15

will make a difference.

49:20

And it's set here where we are.

49:22

-

Yes.

49:25

-

So, there can be a tangible handing off.

49:26

Psychological, emotional, tangible handing off.

49:33

And see what happens going into the future.

49:38

They will be more diverse than we are,

49:43

they will have altogether different thoughts than we have.

49:46

They won't necessarily trust institutions.

49:54

I know they don't believe in universal truth,

49:57

which I think is exciting, personally.

50:01

So that's what I see that needs to happen.

50:05

But again it's the relationships,

50:12

and we have to figure out how to do that.

50:14

-

Mhmm, mhmm.

50:18

I have one last practical question.

50:21

You mentioned the website.

50:22

Do you have ideas about what to include in it?

50:24

Who would benefit from it?

50:27

How to get it out there?

50:31

Any ideas about the website and how to do it?

50:32

-

Well, (laughs),

50:37

I think it has to have links to our partners in all of this,

50:40

including the new one that you just identified.

50:46

-

Christian Feminism Today.

50:50

-

Yup, yup.

50:51

-

Mhmm.

50:53

-

I think it needs to have documents,

50:53

or at least where they are.

50:58

I think if people can,

50:59

is it possible for people to actually hear

51:01

what Dolores Williams said?

51:05

-

Yeah, yeah.

51:06

-

I think those need to be there

51:08

from the beginning.

51:10

-

Right.

51:11

-

I think ways to make connections,

51:14

ways to be involved,

51:17

ways to contact us, ways...

51:20

I'm limited (laughs).

51:25

(both women laugh)

51:26

-

This all sounds good Mary Kay (laughs).

51:27

-

I use websites,

51:31

and I've had people in churches create one for a church,

51:34

but I've not...

51:37

-

Yeah.

51:38

-

Yeah.

51:39

It's one of those things,

51:40

you know a good one when you see it.

51:41

-

Yes, yup.

51:43

Mhmm.

51:45

-

So, I'm so glad you're doing it.

51:46

It just will make all the difference in the world.

51:49

You can't be anything in this world anymore

51:52

without a website.

51:54

-

Yeah, it's true.

51:55

-

Yeah.

51:56

-

Yeah.

51:57

Is there anything we haven't discussed

51:59

that you would like to say?

52:01

Anything that's on your heart,

52:03

or anything that we've missed that's important to you?

52:04

-

No, I think you've pulled out more

52:13

than I even thought.

52:15

(both women laugh)

52:15

-

Well, it was a wonderful conversation.

52:18

Thank you so much Mary Kay,

52:21

and thank you for all the work you're doing

52:22

to keep this goin'.

52:24

-

Well thank you for all you're doin'

52:25

to keep it goin'.

52:27

-

Thank you.

52:28

-

We're all in this together!

52:28

-

We are, we are.

52:29

Relationships right?

52:30

-

That's right.

52:31

-

Exactly, still important.

52:32

Sauter, Mary Kay

Transcript

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Sallie Bingham Center for Women's History & Culture

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