Sauter, Mary Kay
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- | Okay, well thank you so much Mary Kay. | 0:02 |
I'm gonna start with some background information. | 0:05 | |
So could you say your name? | 0:07 | |
- | Mary Kay Sauter. | 0:09 |
- | Great, and are you lay or clergy? | 0:10 |
- | Now I'm clergy. | 0:13 |
- | Okay, and what denomination? | 0:14 |
- | United Church of Christ. | 0:16 |
- | Okay, great. | 0:18 |
Where and when were you born Mary Kay? | 0:20 | |
- | I was born in Minneapolis. | 0:22 |
April 23, 1945. | 0:24 | |
- | Okay. | 0:26 |
- | The bill came to $84.00. | 0:27 |
- | (laughing) No, really? | 0:29 |
- | I found it going through my parent's things. | 0:32 |
10 days in the hospital. | 0:34 | |
- | That is incredible. | 0:36 |
Both the cost and the number of days in the hospital. | 0:38 | |
That's amazing. | 0:41 | |
(both women laugh) | 0:42 | |
I love that little tidbit. | 0:43 | |
Where did you go to school? | 0:45 | |
Graduate or divinity school? | 0:46 | |
- | I have a B.A. from Bethel. | 0:48 |
- | Yes. | 0:51 |
- | And an M.B.A. | 0:52 |
from the University of North Dakota. | 0:53 | |
- | Oh! | 0:55 |
- | And an MDiv from here | 0:56 |
at United Theological Seminary. | 0:58 | |
- | Oh, very interesting! | 1:00 |
Okay, you said now you're ordained. | 1:02 | |
So, this was at a later point in your life | 1:04 | |
you went to seminary? | 1:07 | |
- | I was in seminary | 1:08 |
while the Re-Imagining happened. | 1:10 | |
- | Oh, okay. | 1:13 |
- | I started in 1991, | 1:14 |
and graduated in 1995. | 1:16 | |
- | Okay, okay. | 1:18 |
Very interesting. Alright. | 1:20 | |
So, well I think you're starting to answer this. | 1:22 | |
So this is what you were doing during, | 1:24 | |
you were at school. | 1:26 | |
Were you doing any other kind of work? | 1:27 | |
- | No, I was just going to school. | 1:28 |
- | Yeah, that was probably enough (laughs). | 1:30 |
- | It was, yes. | 1:32 |
- | And what work or ministry did you do | 1:33 |
after Re-Imagining? | 1:35 | |
- | I went into interim ministry. | 1:36 |
I'd had one semester of school left, | 1:40 | |
and in one week, | 1:43 | |
had a sense of call to do interims. | 1:45 | |
And first week in seminary, | 1:48 | |
I learned about process theology. | 1:51 | |
So people would ask me, "What are you going to do | 1:53 | |
"when you graduate?" | 1:55 | |
And I'd say, "I don't know. | 1:56 | |
"I'm becoming who I will be when I need to decide." | 1:57 | |
And like I said, in that one week, | 2:01 | |
it became very clear that I was called to do interim. | 2:03 | |
So I had never even heard of 'em | 2:06 | |
before I came to seminary. | 2:08 | |
- | If you don't mind my asking, | 2:10 |
that's so fascinating, | 2:11 | |
what about interim ministry, | 2:12 | |
what about it called you? | 2:14 | |
- | I grew up a minister's kid, slash army brat. | 2:18 |
And was very used to going into new situations, | 2:23 | |
and loved going into new situations and meeting people. | 2:27 | |
I felt the M.B.A would be a big help in the analysis | 2:31 | |
and looking at finances, | 2:36 | |
looking at how things are done. | 2:39 | |
I am a five on the enneagram, and we analyze. | 2:41 | |
- | Is that right? | 2:46 |
- | Yeah. | 2:47 |
- | Yes, yes. | |
- | We are the analyzers, | 2:48 |
and a big difference is that I'm an extrovert analyzer, | 2:50 | |
and most aren't. | 2:53 | |
- | Oh, interesting. | 2:54 |
- | So, not only did I analyze, | 2:55 |
but I had to share it. | 2:58 | |
(both women laugh) | 3:00 | |
- | That sounds like a good interim minister! | 3:03 |
So did you do this at a number of churches? | 3:06 | |
- | Eight different churches, | 3:08 |
and on the conference staff | 3:10 | |
for the Minnesota Conference of the UCC. | 3:12 | |
- | Oh, okay. | 3:15 |
Very interesting. Wow. | 3:16 | |
So how and when did you first become aware | 3:18 | |
of feminist theology? | 3:21 | |
- | Oh, at seminary I think. | 3:25 |
- | That's it. | 3:27 |
- | Yeah. | 3:28 |
- | Yeah. | |
- | I think I had always figured | 3:29 |
there was more to the whole thing | 3:32 | |
than what we'd been taught. | 3:33 | |
But I think to put a name to it | 3:37 | |
and have it be something, it was probably seminary. | 3:38 | |
- | Mhmm. | 3:41 |
And did you resonate with it immediately? | 3:42 | |
- | Oh yeah. | 3:44 |
- | Mhmm. | 3:45 |
- | Yup. | 3:45 |
- | Yeah. | |
- | Yeah, very clearly. | 3:46 |
It was, well of course. | 3:48 | |
- | Yes. | 3:50 |
(both women laugh) | 3:51 | |
- | Of course. | 3:53 |
- | Yes, yes. | 3:54 |
- | And I think that, | 3:55 |
doing feminist theology, | 3:58 | |
then it was like, well of course. | 4:00 | |
Then there's all these other people | 4:03 | |
who can do theology as well | 4:05 | |
out of their lives and their experience just like women. | 4:08 | |
So it broadened it even more. | 4:13 | |
It wasn't just men and women. | 4:15 | |
It was various races, various economic groups, | 4:17 | |
everybody, gays and lesbians. | 4:23 | |
Everybody can do theology out of their experience. | 4:26 | |
So, it expanded it even more. | 4:28 | |
- | Yes, wow. | 4:30 |
Well should we talk about your relationship | 4:34 | |
to the Re-Imagining community? | 4:36 | |
- | Sure, sure (laughing). | 4:37 |
- | And could you tell me about, | 4:38 |
what was your relationship? | 4:39 | |
What kind of roles did you play? | 4:40 | |
- | I don't remember how I first got into it. | 4:43 |
I'm sure it was through the UCC. | 4:46 | |
But they wanted somebody to be there from the UCC, | 4:48 | |
and so I was very interested in being a part of it. | 4:52 | |
I remember going to meetings | 4:58 | |
and then they were looking for co-chairs. | 4:59 | |
And they had asked Kathy Austin Molly to be a co-chair. | 5:03 | |
And I didn't wait to be asked. | 5:07 | |
I volunteered (laughs). | 5:11 | |
- | Oh, wow. | 5:13 |
What led you to volunteer? | 5:14 | |
- | I like organizing. | 5:19 |
I like the process of meetings. | 5:20 | |
I like going to meetings. | 5:25 | |
I suppose a call to do it. | 5:27 | |
So, I just went up to Sally Hill | 5:33 | |
and said, "I'd like to be the other co-chair." | 5:35 | |
I don't know if she would ever have asked me. | 5:39 | |
I don't know if it was a good decision (laughs). | 5:41 | |
But I was glad to be a part of it | 5:44 | |
and to be leading the group. | 5:47 | |
- | So what was that experience like? | 5:50 |
Being a co-chair for that '93 conference? | 5:52 | |
- | Well, it was quite amazing. | 5:57 |
Sally of course carried the bulk | 6:02 | |
of the responsibility in contacting people. | 6:05 | |
We'd shared the meetings, | 6:09 | |
we met and talked ourselves with Sally | 6:11 | |
about things that needed to be done. | 6:15 | |
I think even more so at the conference itself. | 6:18 | |
We were at a very different conference than anybody else. | 6:25 | |
- | Say some more about that. | 6:30 |
- | When spur of the moment decisions | 6:36 |
needed to be made, | 6:39 | |
we were often the ones contacted to make them. | 6:41 | |
When negotiations needed to take place, | 6:45 | |
we were the ones doing the negotiating. | 6:50 | |
Now other people might have been as well, | 6:52 | |
but as co-chairs we found ourselves often in that role. | 6:55 | |
So, when, and we mentioned this before, | 7:00 | |
but when a couple of the speakers couldn't be understood | 7:06 | |
that were doing the liturgy. | 7:12 | |
We eventually negotiated, | 7:16 | |
what they came up with the idea as to how to fix it, | 7:19 | |
which was then fixed. | 7:22 | |
But we were the ones going between people often. | 7:23 | |
- | Yes. | 7:28 |
- | Between those who wanted it one way, | 7:29 |
and those who wanted it another way (laughs). | 7:31 | |
The other ones, | 7:34 | |
when the lesbian women decided that they wanted to come out | 7:35 | |
to celebrate being lesbians. | 7:42 | |
It was Kathy and I that were going back and forth | 7:44 | |
negotiating between them and with the rest of the board. | 7:46 | |
Because everybody wasn't necessarily | 7:52 | |
ready for that. | 7:56 | |
- | Yeah. | 7:57 |
- | Even the board members weren't, so we-- | 7:58 |
- | So during the conference, | 8:00 |
while this is going on, | 8:01 | |
you're trying to talk to individual board members | 8:02 | |
and work this out? | 8:05 | |
- | Yup. | 8:06 |
- | Wow (laughs). | 8:07 |
- | Yeah. | 8:08 |
Yeah, because Kris Smith, | 8:08 | |
I don't know if you're going to interview her, but-- | 8:12 | |
- | I could, I haven't. | 8:14 |
Yeah, I could. | 8:15 | |
- | Because she was a speaker at the event. | 8:16 |
- | Yes, right. | 8:18 |
- | And she had been Methodist, | 8:19 |
was now I think becoming UCC someplace in there. | 8:22 | |
But she was speaking, | 8:26 | |
and while she was speaking, | 8:27 | |
she was going to come out to everybody. | 8:29 | |
- | Oh, yes. | 8:31 |
- | To the whole world. | 8:32 |
- | Yes. | 8:33 |
- | But before that happened, | 8:35 |
a day before that happened, | 8:36 | |
if my memory is right, | 8:38 | |
a group of lesbian women decided they wanted to-- | 8:40 | |
- | All come. | 8:44 |
- | Either, like I said, | 8:45 |
affirm who they were, or some of them to come out. | 8:47 | |
And it was a break in the flow of the event. | 8:52 | |
So there were different arguments about it. | 8:58 | |
Some were saying, "Well, if we let them, then who else?" | 9:01 | |
Some were saying, "But we've mapped this all out. | 9:04 | |
"We have a flow to this. | 9:07 | |
"It's gonna break the flow." | 9:08 | |
Some were saying, "But we as a board didn't vote on this. | 9:10 | |
"We didn't decide about this." | 9:13 | |
And so we just kept all morning long negotiating it out | 9:15 | |
with various people, | 9:20 | |
until everybody agreed that it would be okay to do. | 9:21 | |
- | And do you recall what were the reasons | 9:24 |
for why to do it? | 9:26 | |
What was the persuasive? | 9:27 | |
- | Well I think it was mainly, how can we not? | 9:29 |
They're our sisters. | 9:33 | |
We believe in letting people have control | 9:36 | |
over their own lives. | 9:41 | |
We believe in affirming who people are, our differences. | 9:43 | |
And it would be interesting to me, | 9:49 | |
and I thought about this before, | 9:51 | |
if we hadn't been in that moment, | 9:53 | |
in that time, | 9:58 | |
in that intensity, | 9:59 | |
needing to make a decision one way or the other. | 10:01 | |
If we had had months and months and months to ponder it | 10:04 | |
and to figure it out, | 10:08 | |
what would we have done? | 10:09 | |
- | Oh, interesting. | 10:10 |
- | Would we have come to the same conclusion? | 10:12 |
Or would we have been had enough voices from denominations | 10:14 | |
where it wasn't okay at that time, | 10:20 | |
that we would've said no. | 10:23 | |
I don't know. | 10:24 | |
- | Interesting, yeah. | 10:25 |
Very interesting. | 10:26 | |
Do you have some other strong memories? | 10:28 | |
Those are really good memories. | 10:30 | |
They're really important memories. | 10:31 | |
Are there other things that you, | 10:32 | |
were really important to you? | 10:34 | |
- | I think it was the round tables, | 10:39 |
was a big deal. | 10:43 | |
I think moving people around from one place to another. | 10:44 | |
And I couldn't tell you, | 10:48 | |
maybe they know whose idea some of these were. | 10:50 | |
The round tables to me is just a no-brainer | 10:52 | |
for any kind of meeting. | 10:55 | |
You're in closer proximity, | 10:57 | |
and eyeball to eyeball with people. | 10:59 | |
But it grew out of our meetings | 11:02 | |
that we would do these things. | 11:06 | |
And having the speakers in the middle, | 11:08 | |
then moving people around became important | 11:12 | |
because otherwise people would always be in the back. | 11:15 | |
- | Right. | 11:19 |
- | So now they were also in the front. | 11:20 |
And so we took the time | 11:22 | |
to move everything from a table to the next one, | 11:24 | |
or people carried it from one spot to another. | 11:27 | |
But it was all organized. | 11:31 | |
And it has to do with people like Jo Ringgenberg | 11:33 | |
and Mary Gates who are just incredible organizers. | 11:36 | |
Oh, detail people that you would not believe with energy, | 11:41 | |
and they were just amazing in what they did. | 11:46 | |
So on the committee there were people | 11:50 | |
who were doing all these creative, | 11:52 | |
well everybody had creative thoughts. | 11:54 | |
Everybody had input. | 11:56 | |
That was what we felt was important, | 11:57 | |
was everybody to have input into things. | 11:59 | |
Then there were big picture people. | 12:03 | |
And then there were detail people. | 12:05 | |
(both women laugh) | 12:07 | |
And we desperately needed each other | 12:08 | |
to get through that whole thing. | 12:10 | |
I think the worship services were, | 12:13 | |
Madeleine Sue Martin is absolutely | 12:18 | |
an incredible liturgist and ritualist, | 12:20 | |
and just amazing. | 12:24 | |
And I felt fortunate after the event | 12:27 | |
to have a class from her. | 12:30 | |
- | Did you? | 12:32 |
- | Yeah, and it was very fortunate to do that. | 12:33 |
- | Yeah, yes. | 12:36 |
- | But she, and the group that she had, | 12:36 |
just wove together these beautiful services. | 12:38 | |
And I think I told you before that at one point, | 12:43 | |
that first evening Kris Smith came up to me | 12:48 | |
and she said, "You have people from all over the world here | 12:50 | |
"and they are exhausted. | 12:53 | |
"You can't keep going." | 12:56 | |
So I took it on myself to just, | 12:58 | |
I felt graciously, and-- | 13:04 | |
(both women laugh) | 13:05 | |
and with ritual at a natural kind of breaking point | 13:07 | |
to end it | 13:11 | |
for the evening. | 13:13 | |
It was a tough call, | 13:15 | |
and I think if I had been involved in creating | 13:17 | |
that service it would've been even tougher call to do. | 13:22 | |
I knew they felt a need to do it | 13:29 | |
at some later point themselves. | 13:31 | |
Those who had created it. | 13:33 | |
And I felt bad about it, | 13:35 | |
but I trusted Kris. | 13:37 | |
- | Right. Yeah, yeah. | 13:41 |
- | But it was all, | 13:44 |
it was just absolutely amazing. | 13:45 | |
I think another was being able | 13:47 | |
to introduce Chung Hyun Kyung. | 13:50 | |
In her book, Inheriting Our Mothers' Gardens. | 13:57 | |
There's a place where she talks about | 14:01 | |
eating apples under Eve's tree. | 14:03 | |
And I read that before the event, | 14:06 | |
and there was something within me that was freed. | 14:12 | |
From reading that. | 14:19 | |
- | Say, say-- | 14:20 |
- | I just felt a freeing of my spirit, | 14:21 |
from reading that one paragraph. | 14:28 | |
That maybe the Eve story | 14:33 | |
had been so indoctrinated in my head, | 14:36 | |
but suddenly it was, "wow." | 14:40 | |
That was, we don't have to get all serious | 14:43 | |
about that particular story. | 14:47 | |
We can let it go. | 14:50 | |
- | Yeah. | 14:51 |
- | We can let it go. | |
It's garbage. | 14:53 | |
- | Uh-huh. | 14:54 |
- | So then, how many other stories | 14:56 |
can we let go (laughs)? | 14:57 | |
And they're also just garbage, | 15:00 | |
and oppression of women. | 15:02 | |
And I mean I wasn't thinking that as I read it. | 15:04 | |
It was just this, "Oh." | 15:07 | |
So, she was the one person | 15:12 | |
I wanted to introduce. | 15:14 | |
We had took turns, and various people had introduced, | 15:15 | |
but she was the one I wanted to introduce. | 15:18 | |
- | That is great. | 15:21 |
- | So I told people that story. | 15:22 |
- | Yes. | 15:25 |
- | About, what that's meant to me. | 15:26 |
The next day, she took a bite out of an apple. | 15:30 | |
And I think she had planned that all along. | 15:34 | |
I don't think what I said made a difference. | 15:36 | |
But she had a basket of apples. | 15:37 | |
I think Manly brought 'em up or something. | 15:40 | |
- | Yes. | 15:42 |
- | He talks about that. | 15:43 |
She took a big bite out of it. | 15:44 | |
- | And that became important | 15:46 |
in the community after that. | 15:46 | |
- | Yes. | 15:48 |
- | Important symbol. | 15:49 |
- | Mhmm. | 15:50 |
- | Yeah, yeah. | |
- | Yeah. | 15:51 |
So I think those are probably | 15:52 | |
the high points of doing it all. | 15:55 | |
It was just a very spiritual event, | 15:59 | |
I don't think I went to any of the groups. | 16:04 | |
- | The workshops or anything? | 16:09 |
- | The workshops. | 16:10 |
- | Yeah, yeah. | 16:11 |
- | But the people I heard were in the big plenary. | 16:12 |
But I didn't make it to any others. | 16:15 | |
- | You were busy doing all this other stuff. | 16:16 |
- | Right, right. | 16:18 |
- | Yeah, yes. | |
Well I'm curious if we could talk | 16:20 | |
about the backlash for a moment. | 16:22 | |
When that happened, were you surprised, | 16:24 | |
and were you effected by it directly? | 16:26 | |
- | We knew it was coming out. | 16:30 |
Before the event took place, | 16:34 | |
within the Presbyterian Church. | 16:37 | |
There was enough noise being made. | 16:39 | |
I think if they could've, | 16:42 | |
they would like to have stopped it from happening | 16:44 | |
in the first place. | 16:46 | |
I think we were surprised at how quickly | 16:48 | |
everything happened, | 16:51 | |
like immediately. | 16:52 | |
I think, | 16:55 | |
the day that conference took place | 16:56 | |
they mailed the letters out. | 16:58 | |
And they went not just to each church, | 17:00 | |
but to every single person in the denomination | 17:02 | |
got a letter about this abomination, | 17:06 | |
and what we had done. | 17:10 | |
It took things out of context. | 17:12 | |
I don't have a copy of the letter | 17:13 | |
and I don't remember what it said. | 17:15 | |
But, must be one around someplace. | 17:16 | |
But just talked about how awful we were, | 17:18 | |
and how awful the whole thing was. | 17:23 | |
And we also knew that | 17:25 | |
the Institute for Religion and Democracy | 17:26 | |
was involved with it. | 17:28 | |
I met the reporter. | 17:31 | |
- | Oh you did? | 17:32 |
- | A woman from there. | 17:33 |
Yes, who was there. | 17:34 | |
The one who later wrote that we locked the doors, | 17:36 | |
kept everybody in, | 17:40 | |
and made people go through various rituals | 17:42 | |
and that the implication | 17:46 | |
was the rituals were bad and something. | 17:47 | |
Some woman among, | 17:50 | |
that was their reporting for the IRD. | 17:53 | |
That then-network, the Good News from your denomination, | 17:57 | |
went after people. | 18:03 | |
So we were ready to some degree. | 18:06 | |
We knew something was going to happen. | 18:08 | |
I think we were, the surprise was how vicious it was. | 18:11 | |
How untruthful parts of it were. | 18:18 | |
How there was no conversation, no dialogue. | 18:22 | |
This is it. | 18:27 | |
We've made the decision that what they did was bad. | 18:27 | |
- | Right. Yeah, yeah. | 18:31 |
So when you think back about the forming of the community, | 18:33 | |
what do you remember about the decision? | 18:38 | |
Well first of all, | 18:41 | |
what kind of response you were gonna make? | 18:42 | |
The group was gonna make? | 18:44 | |
And then how that led to the community being formed. | 18:46 | |
- | Well, again having, | 18:49 |
I think the analyzing mind. | 18:53 | |
- | Yes (laughs). | 18:55 |
- | For me it was pretty clear | 18:57 |
that we had two choices to make. | 18:59 | |
Either we would take on the IRD, | 19:02 | |
and the layman and everybody, | 19:06 | |
and try and duke it out with them. | 19:08 | |
Or we would do nothing, | 19:11 | |
I guess there were three choices. | 19:14 | |
Do nothing, just quit. | 19:15 | |
Or we could continue on with what we had been doing. | 19:17 | |
And do it well. | 19:22 | |
And in my thinking we didn't have the resources | 19:27 | |
to go after the IRD. | 19:29 | |
We didn't have the money. | 19:31 | |
We didn't have the support. | 19:33 | |
We didn't have anything. | 19:35 | |
That all we had was who we were. | 19:37 | |
And to do what we had done the best we could | 19:40 | |
into the future, for me, | 19:44 | |
it was kind of a no-brainer. | 19:46 | |
I think for some others it was a harder decision | 19:48 | |
to make to do that instead. | 19:51 | |
- | Instead of what would they have wanted? | 19:54 |
- | To duke it out with them-- | 19:57 |
- | To duke it out. Yeah, yeah. | 19:58 |
- | To take 'em on. | 20:00 |
Particularly those who are Presbyterian. | 20:02 | |
- | Yes. | 20:04 |
- | And I understand that. | 20:05 |
- | Right. | 20:06 |
- | I totally understand that. | 20:06 |
So we had many conversations for awhile about it. | 20:09 | |
In the meantime hearing more stuff that was coming out. | 20:13 | |
Like I mentioned the other day | 20:17 | |
the group of them, | 20:20 | |
Presbyterians were getting together | 20:24 | |
for a national meeting. | 20:26 | |
Not their big summer thing that they have, | 20:27 | |
but another meeting to talk about things. | 20:30 | |
At which point, all the people received letters saying, | 20:32 | |
"If you're told to sit around tables, | 20:35 | |
"insist that you line up in rows. | 20:36 | |
"Because you lose power if you sit around a round table." | 20:39 | |
And we laughed about that. | 20:42 | |
We just said, "Well that's just crazy." | 20:44 | |
- | Yeah. | 20:46 |
- | That's just crazy. | 20:47 |
What are they talking about? | 20:48 | |
- | Yeah. | 20:49 |
- | So to me, I was (laughs), | 20:50 |
it didn't make sense some of what they were saying. | 20:54 | |
They were seeking power. | 21:00 | |
- | Yeah. | 21:02 |
- | They were all seeking power. | 21:03 |
And I think for the IRD it was to shut down | 21:04 | |
the mainline denominations from their social justice, | 21:09 | |
kind of agendas. | 21:12 | |
The more progressive politics that went along | 21:16 | |
with many in the mainline. | 21:20 | |
- | Mhmm. | 21:21 |
- | Social justice. | 21:22 |
I mean I'm not speaking for all the mainline churches | 21:24 | |
because they're very conservative people, | 21:26 | |
and some of our mainline churches also. | 21:29 | |
But I think generally they were seen | 21:31 | |
as being more progressive. | 21:34 | |
Needed to be shut down some. | 21:37 | |
- | Mhmm, mhmm. | 21:38 |
Yeah, yeah. | 21:40 | |
- | Yeah. | 21:41 |
- | Yeah. | |
- | So, again, | 21:42 |
we didn't have the resources to take 'em on. | 21:44 | |
But I also felt like it was just kind of a woman's way | 21:46 | |
of doing things to just keep on doing what we do well. | 21:51 | |
And be strong in it and clear, | 21:55 | |
and be who we are. | 21:57 | |
Rather than go get into a boxing match with somebody | 21:59 | |
and use up our resources in that way. | 22:04 | |
It just, to me it didn't make any sense. | 22:07 | |
- | Yeah, yeah. | 22:10 |
So, you stayed involved then in Re-Imagining, | 22:12 | |
what else did you do after that '93 conference? | 22:14 | |
- | Well, I continued on as chair, | 22:18 |
and I can't remember, | 22:22 | |
I continued on longer than Kathy did. | 22:24 | |
By then I was ordained, | 22:28 | |
and I was ordained in '95, | 22:31 | |
and was doing an intermountain mount video. | 22:33 | |
And so I would drive in for things | 22:37 | |
with meetings, and I kept the books. | 22:39 | |
- | Did you? (laughs) | 22:44 |
- | Yeah, we didn't have computers to do it. | 22:44 |
While we were there we did get a computer to do it. | 22:46 | |
We incorporated ourselves so we were no longer a part | 22:50 | |
of the Counsels of Churches. | 22:54 | |
We were our own entity. | 22:56 | |
We had an office space in the church center. | 22:58 | |
We had a a part-time office person. | 23:03 | |
And we decided then to keep doing the conferences. | 23:07 | |
The book that Nancy and Pam came out with | 23:12 | |
was signed up at that time, | 23:16 | |
and so they started working on that. | 23:19 | |
Sally was still involved, but not as a staff person. | 23:22 | |
- | Not as a staff person for the Counsel of Churches? | 23:26 |
- | No, she was still staff | 23:28 |
for the Counsel of Churches, | 23:29 | |
but not for Re-Imagining. | 23:30 | |
- | I see, okay. | 23:32 |
- | In particular. | |
- | I see. Yeah, yeah. | 23:33 |
So were you involved the whole 10 years of Re-Imagining? | 23:35 | |
- | No, no I didn't stay involved. | 23:39 |
Doing interims out of state, | 23:45 | |
they were mainly out state where I was doing them. | 23:47 | |
So I think I was around maybe for a couple years, | 23:50 | |
and then turned it over. | 23:53 | |
There were many others | 23:55 | |
that wanted to be involved. | 23:57 | |
- | Well, now, you're a really important person | 23:59 |
in terms of bringing Re-Imagining back | 24:01 | |
and reincorporating it. | 24:03 | |
Getting it going again. | 24:06 | |
- | You know I was thinking | 24:07 |
about that the other day. | 24:08 | |
That as far as contributions, | 24:10 | |
that's probably a bigger contribution | 24:15 | |
than what I did before (laughs). | 24:17 | |
- | How interesting. | 24:18 |
Say more about that. | 24:19 | |
That's interesting. | 24:20 | |
- | Well. | |
I think we were all sad when it ended. | 24:26 | |
Understood, and it was okay. | 24:29 | |
But it was just Nadine and I at Plymouth Church. | 24:33 | |
We're both members at Plymouth | 24:36 | |
who realized it had been 20 years, | 24:38 | |
why not have a reunion? | 24:42 | |
It wasn't with the idea of | 24:44 | |
reincorporating and to keep going. | 24:47 | |
It was just, | 24:51 | |
let's get together. | 24:52 | |
And so, it was fun to see people again. | 24:54 | |
And get to know what people have been doing. | 24:58 | |
And somehow then we realized that it wasn't over. | 25:03 | |
So this smaller group then decided to keep going. | 25:08 | |
And, we didn't know what we would do. | 25:14 | |
It was just, "Well, let's see." | 25:17 | |
I think I've said this before, | 25:20 | |
it was Kathy Austin Molly who said, | 25:21 | |
"Well the last thing it needs | 25:22 | |
"is a bunch of 70, 80 and 90 year olds." | 25:23 | |
So then it became a matter of, I thought, | 25:26 | |
"Well, social media, nobody knows how old we are." | 25:32 | |
And let's figure out how to turn it over. | 25:36 | |
Then we all started talking about those things. | 25:39 | |
How do we turn it over? | 25:43 | |
And we would not be doing what we're doing | 25:45 | |
if you hadn't gotten us sabbatical. | 25:49 | |
We would not be, I can't imagine where we would be. | 25:52 | |
But the contacts that you're making | 25:55 | |
and the things that you're doing. | 25:57 | |
So all I can imagine, | 25:59 | |
is that God is in the mix somehow. | 26:02 | |
Again, process theology, we could all say "no." | 26:09 | |
- | Yeah. | 26:12 |
- | Or it wouldn't be condemned to hell, | 26:13 |
but I'll be fine. | 26:17 | |
But I think if we're open to what God, | 26:18 | |
what She wants. | 26:25 | |
- | Yeah. | 26:26 |
- | And that's what's happening. | 26:28 |
- | Mhmm, mhmm. | 26:30 |
- | There's such a great group | 26:31 |
that's stuck with it and stayed there, | 26:32 | |
and everybody can't make it all the time. | 26:34 | |
But for the most part, | 26:37 | |
there's such a commitment there. | 26:39 | |
And it's kinda nice knowing there's these other people | 26:42 | |
who are out there that when ya see 'em | 26:45 | |
are encouraging and supportive. | 26:48 | |
And then it's expanding out into other organizations | 26:51 | |
like you've found. | 26:54 | |
- | Yes. | 26:56 |
- | The seminaries, | 26:57 |
and the organizations, | 26:59 | |
and we have to do it. | 27:03 | |
It's like now we cannot not do it. | 27:04 | |
- | Right, yeah. | 27:07 |
- | We have to do it. | 27:08 |
- | Yes, yeah. | 27:09 |
- | Whatever it is. | 27:10 |
(both women laugh) | 27:11 | |
- | It's in process, right? | 27:12 |
- | It's a process. | 27:13 |
And it will unfold. | 27:14 | |
It will get there. | 27:16 | |
- | Yeah. | 27:17 |
You know you've been an important person | 27:20 | |
with the beginning, and now at this moment. | 27:20 | |
How would you define Re-Imagining? | 27:23 | |
- | Re-Imagining is, | 27:35 |
in and of itself, | 27:40 | |
is a safe place. | 27:42 | |
- | Hmm. | 27:44 |
- | It is a safe place. | 27:46 |
For women of all walks of life, | 27:50 | |
and men as well, | 27:53 | |
to think about what it means to be in a relationship | 27:56 | |
with something that's bigger than we are. | 28:06 | |
Whatever you want to call it. | 28:12 | |
God is the word that works for me, | 28:15 | |
just because it's short and covers so many things. | 28:17 | |
It's a safe place for people to explore what it means | 28:24 | |
to be a person of faith. | 28:34 | |
- | Yeah. | 28:35 |
- | What it means to be a woman person of faith. | 28:37 |
What it means to be a gay woman person of faith, | 28:41 | |
a black gay woman person of faith. | 28:44 | |
Every possibility you can imagine, we don't have to agree. | 28:47 | |
We don't have to come to a doctrine. | 28:53 | |
We don't have to promise that we're going to adhere | 28:56 | |
to this belief for the rest of our lives even. | 29:00 | |
I could change my mind tomorrow about something. | 29:04 | |
It freed me to come to my own conclusions | 29:09 | |
about what Jesus' life meant, | 29:14 | |
and about atonement. | 29:18 | |
Which I don't believe in. | 29:20 | |
Jesus didn't have to die on the cross for us | 29:23 | |
to have a relationship with God. | 29:26 | |
Sacrifices don't have to be made. | 29:30 | |
They might be made because of choices people make. | 29:34 | |
But they don't have to be made. | 29:38 | |
There's no glory in a sacrifice. | 29:41 | |
It might happen right? | 29:44 | |
So I think it freed me up to find, | 29:48 | |
and I think that's what it's about, | 29:52 | |
is finding a life-giving theology, | 29:54 | |
a love-giving theology, | 29:59 | |
a justice-seeking theology, | 30:03 | |
an understanding of a God who wants that | 30:06 | |
for all of creation, whatever that may be. | 30:09 | |
So, sermon. | 30:13 | |
(both women laugh) | 30:15 | |
- | Preach it! | 30:17 |
- | Yeah! | 30:18 |
- | How would you say that feminist theology | 30:22 |
effected the way the community was structured | 30:23 | |
and functioned? | 30:26 | |
- | Well we, | 30:31 |
were very intentional about things being relational. | 30:36 | |
Whether it was our meetings | 30:42 | |
where we checked in ahead of time, | 30:44 | |
and learned about each other, | 30:46 | |
and commiserated with each other. | 30:48 | |
Oh, those kind of things. | 30:53 | |
Yeah it was mainly about relationships | 31:00 | |
and making those happen. | 31:02 | |
Again, the round tables, | 31:06 | |
that was about relationships. | 31:08 | |
Moving people around, scribbling. | 31:10 | |
It was about the flow of your spirit | 31:12 | |
in some way coming out. | 31:16 | |
The worship services, | 31:18 | |
that we blessed each of the speakers when they came forward. | 31:21 | |
That was about the relationship piece again. | 31:25 | |
And a relationship with God, | 31:30 | |
and with the people who were there, | 31:32 | |
and the people who were speaking. | 31:35 | |
So, I think feminism to me is many different things, | 31:36 | |
a wide variety of things. | 31:42 | |
But when you say feminist theology, | 31:44 | |
then that's about relationships. | 31:46 | |
And I think that's what we put forward as a priority. | 31:51 | |
And I think that when we were negotiating | 31:57 | |
about the lesbians, | 31:59 | |
that too, it was about relationships. | 32:02 | |
And we developed relationships. | 32:05 | |
I remember Kathy and I standing, | 32:06 | |
leaning back against a wall as they did their thing. | 32:10 | |
We weren't a part of what happened. | 32:13 | |
They had the power and the control to do | 32:15 | |
what they wanted to do. | 32:18 | |
We just stood there smiling. | 32:20 | |
(both women laugh) | 32:23 | |
And we look at each other, | 32:25 | |
and we smile some more. | 32:26 | |
And it just felt, it felt so right. | 32:29 | |
And again, it's the relationships. | 32:31 | |
That's what it's about. | 32:33 | |
- | Exactly. Yeah, yeah. | 32:35 |
I love that image. | 32:38 | |
What challenges would you say were faced by the community | 32:41 | |
during it's existence? | 32:44 | |
And how were they addressed? | 32:45 | |
- | Hmm. | 32:49 |
Well, as with every organization, | 32:53 | |
just to get this off the table. | 32:56 | |
There was always money issues. | 32:57 | |
- | Yes. | 32:59 |
- | And so we just kept asking people for money, | 33:01 |
and there were some who were generous and kind. | 33:06 | |
Many, many who gave of course what they could. | 33:10 | |
But there were some who could give more. | 33:13 | |
So that, and then the Presbyterians | 33:15 | |
gave quite a bit of money for the first event. | 33:21 | |
But see again, it was all part of this much bigger thing. | 33:24 | |
The Decade for Women, Churches in Solidarity with Women, | 33:27 | |
that was a big deal internationally. | 33:33 | |
So this was just a piece of it. | 33:38 | |
Probably the biggest piece that happened | 33:40 | |
in the United States I would venture a guess. | 33:42 | |
And so they put money into it, | 33:46 | |
more so than others did. | 33:51 | |
So then that was also used against them. | 33:52 | |
So, the money piece is an issue. | 33:57 | |
It was hard to hear people who were hurt | 34:13 | |
by their denominations because of the event. | 34:18 | |
- | Yeah. | 34:21 |
- | So I think that was a difficult piece for us. | 34:23 |
Even moving forward it was, "How many more people | 34:28 | |
"are gonna get hurt if we do this?" | 34:31 | |
- | Right. | 34:34 |
- | But that's been the story from the beginning. | 34:36 |
So we still kept going. | 34:44 | |
I think it was shifting gears then. | 34:48 | |
That was probably the next big, | 34:52 | |
shifting gears to going long term. | 34:54 | |
What does that mean? | 34:56 | |
It means incorporating it. | 34:58 | |
It means having our own staff. | 34:59 | |
It means having our own office space. | 35:01 | |
It means phone number. | 35:03 | |
It means-- | 35:05 | |
(both women laugh) | 35:06 | |
All these different things that had to be done. | 35:08 | |
So it was just the nuts and bolts of being an organization. | 35:13 | |
And wanting at the same time to keep the big picture. | 35:18 | |
And there were those who | 35:22 | |
were really good at putting events together, | 35:25 | |
and knowing who to invite and where to find people. | 35:30 | |
So they did that really well. | 35:33 | |
But again, it was getting the space, | 35:35 | |
getting the people, | 35:38 | |
putting everything together for each of them. | 35:39 | |
Probably a sense of a need to live up to expectations. | 35:44 | |
- | Say some more about that. | 35:51 |
- | Well, that had been | 35:52 |
a big blowout event in 1993. | 35:53 | |
- | Right. | 35:56 |
- | How do we match that? | 35:57 |
How can we live up to that | 35:58 | |
when it's not going to be like that? | 36:00 | |
- | Right. | 36:02 |
- | And so it was coming to terms | 36:03 |
with what it could be, | 36:04 | |
and what we could have it be, | 36:06 | |
and hope that people still wanted to be a part of it. | 36:08 | |
- | Yeah, and when you said | 36:12 |
"keeping the big picture in mind", | 36:13 | |
what was the big picture? | 36:15 | |
- | Oh I think to continue to have this safe place | 36:18 |
for women, all kinds of women, | 36:22 | |
to do their explorations, their questioning, | 36:26 | |
their wondering, | 36:30 | |
their processing. | 36:30 | |
- | Yeah. Mhmm, mhmm. | 36:35 |
- | Yeah. | 36:37 |
- | Yeah. | 36:38 |
- | Just one other little piece. | 36:40 |
- | Of course. | 36:41 |
- | We were challenged by what people said | 36:43 |
at any of the events. | 36:46 | |
So the challenge is a piece | 36:48 | |
of that questioning and all. | 36:49 | |
But, I mentioned something to Kris Smith once | 36:51 | |
about how great they all did, | 36:54 | |
and how wonderful it was, | 36:57 | |
and they challenged us all. | 36:59 | |
And her comment was, "No, you challenged us first. | 37:00 | |
"You challenged us to do something more." | 37:07 | |
- | Wow. Wow. | 37:11 |
- | That's I think pretty significant. | 37:15 |
- | Absolutely. | 37:17 |
- | And we didn't realize that. | 37:19 |
- | Yes. Yeah. | 37:20 |
Wow, that was an important thing to say. | 37:23 | |
- | Yeah. | 37:25 |
- | Yeah, yeah. | |
Wow. | 37:27 | |
Mary Kay, you think about this. | 37:29 | |
What was most significant to you | 37:31 | |
about Re-Imagining and why? | 37:35 | |
- | Oh my. | 37:37 |
Well as I'm pondering different words, | 37:48 | |
the one that grips me is faithfulness. | 37:51 | |
- | Hmm. | 37:57 |
Say some more about that, that's a powerful word. | 38:00 | |
- | I think it had to do with | 38:06 |
God being in the mix. | 38:11 | |
Wanting us to do what we did, | 38:14 | |
wanting me to do what I did. | 38:15 | |
And that's the piece that continues on now, | 38:19 | |
is to keep at it. | 38:23 | |
I think faithfulness, | 38:30 | |
in doing it, in being a part of it. | 38:34 | |
But then faithfulness in continuing on | 38:36 | |
in sermons that I preach | 38:40 | |
or classes I held to lift up those same things | 38:42 | |
that have been lifted up | 38:47 | |
and were being lifted up. | 38:48 | |
So, I don't know why, | 38:51 | |
but that's the word that comes to my mind is-- | 38:54 | |
- | Yeah. | 38:57 |
- | And not just my faithfulness, | 38:59 |
but everybody who is involved and was there. | 39:01 | |
Everybody's faithfulness. | 39:05 | |
- | That's a great word. | 39:07 |
- | Yeah. | 39:08 |
- | Yeah. | 39:09 |
Yeah, yeah. | 39:10 | |
Did your involvement in Re-Imaging change your perspective | 39:14 | |
on feminist theology or the church? | 39:17 | |
- | Another reason I went into interims, | 39:29 |
was that I'm rather cynical about the church | 39:33 | |
to start out with. | 39:35 | |
Having a dad as a minister, | 39:38 | |
I knew churches at their best and their worst. | 39:43 | |
And didn't know, | 39:48 | |
I figured short times in churches, | 39:51 | |
I would be gone before-- | 39:54 | |
(both women laugh) | 39:56 | |
Like I'd learn about the nastiness, | 39:59 | |
and I'd learn about what their issues were. | 40:01 | |
But I could help them deal with it | 40:02 | |
rather than have have to live with 'em for 10 years or so. | 40:04 | |
So, I'd always probably, | 40:09 | |
as an adult anyway been rather cynical about the church. | 40:13 | |
So all this did was-- | 40:16 | |
(both women laugh) | 40:18 | |
Affirm my cynicism, | 40:21 | |
and again the disconnect that creates my cynicism, | 40:23 | |
is how can we believe in a loving God | 40:26 | |
and treat each other so un-lovingly? | 40:31 | |
- | Yeah. | 40:34 |
How can we do that? | 40:35 | |
- | Yeah. | 40:36 |
- | And we keep doing that all the time. | 40:37 |
And as far as feminist theology, | 40:39 | |
I think it took | 40:48 | |
anybody who's not a straight white male | 40:53 | |
to break open | 40:59 | |
the theologies into more | 41:03 | |
than what they have become. | 41:08 | |
Because, | 41:12 | |
straight white males just don't question what's there. | 41:16 | |
It's just part of who they are, | 41:21 | |
and it's always been that way. | 41:23 | |
So when other people start to break away and say, | 41:25 | |
"Have you thought about it this way?" | 41:29 | |
Or, "Why don't you consider this?" | 41:30 | |
It's revolutionary, | 41:38 | |
and it needs to happen 'cause the scriptures, | 41:41 | |
the teachings of Jesus, | 41:45 | |
the love of God, | 41:48 | |
the wisdom of Sophia is also revolutionary. | 41:49 | |
Unless you just stand still. | 41:55 | |
In one spot. | 41:58 | |
We can't do that. | 42:01 | |
- | You're preachin' a good message there. | 42:07 |
(both women laugh) | 42:08 | |
Do you have ideas about contributions | 42:12 | |
that Re-Imagining made to feminist theology | 42:14 | |
and or liturgy? | 42:17 | |
Specific contributions. | 42:20 | |
- | I think we all wish it had made more, | 42:27 |
that there was more inclusive language used, | 42:31 | |
that men preachers would be using more | 42:36 | |
of the women's stories from the Bible to preach | 42:43 | |
about justice, about God's love. | 42:47 | |
So I think it wasn't as big as we'd hoped it would be. | 42:53 | |
And part of that was a backlash, | 43:00 | |
it's so tragic that people then began to live in fear. | 43:02 | |
Now I'm in a denomination where I felt nothing. | 43:09 | |
I was just fine. | 43:14 | |
There might've been some people in churches, | 43:16 | |
but it would be up to a local church | 43:18 | |
to make a decision about a minister. | 43:21 | |
- | Right. | 43:23 |
- | Nobody else can decide that. | 43:24 |
- | Yes. | 43:26 |
- | So, I didn't feel anything. | 43:27 |
And we're a pretty progressive denomination anyway. | 43:30 | |
- | Right. | 43:34 |
- | Ordaining the first woman | 43:34 |
in the United States in 1852. | 43:36 | |
- | Mhmm. | 43:39 |
- | So, yeah... | 43:40 |
- | Yup, well let's end | 43:52 |
by looking toward the future. | 43:55 | |
And you're really involved in that future, | 43:56 | |
which is wonderful. | 43:58 | |
What do you think is the greatest legacy | 44:00 | |
of the Re-Imagining community? | 44:02 | |
- | I think someday in the future, | 44:16 |
people are going to be listening to | 44:24 | |
some of the tapes and all that we're archiving. | 44:30 | |
- | Yes. | 44:34 |
- | And, I hope they're saying, | 44:35 |
"Well of course. | 44:40 | |
"What's so big about that?" | 44:45 | |
- | Right. | 44:47 |
- | "It's just what we do." | 44:48 |
Rather than, "How dare they | 44:50 | |
"have said those things back then." | 44:53 | |
(both women laugh) | 44:55 | |
And I'm not certain where it's going. | 44:56 | |
- | Yeah, yeah. | 44:59 |
- | So I think we need to | 45:03 |
do what we're gonna be doing | 45:06 | |
to ensure that that one possibility is that we stay here. | 45:08 | |
(both women laugh) | 45:12 | |
- | At least can go that direction, right? | 45:14 |
- | Right, right, right. | 45:15 |
Now what was your question about? | 45:16 | |
- | About the greatest legacy. | 45:17 |
- | So I think it's that we did it. | 45:20 |
- | Yeah. | 45:21 |
- | And I almost wonder as people look back on it, | 45:24 |
that group in the future that says, "Well of course. | 45:29 | |
"So what was the big deal? | 45:33 | |
"Why did anybody react that way to it?" | 45:35 | |
But if they hadn't reacted the way they did, | 45:40 | |
we might've had the one event and then nothing else. | 45:45 | |
- | Yeah, mhmm. | 45:48 |
That's right. | 45:51 | |
- | So, I think the legacy is | 45:52 |
that we did something at that point in time | 45:55 | |
that was freeing enough and shocking enough, | 45:57 | |
that the oppressors didn't want it out of the bag. | 46:02 | |
And because of that, | 46:08 | |
something more happened | 46:10 | |
as far as wanting to get rid of that oppression. | 46:11 | |
- | Right, mhmm. | 46:16 |
- | And now we're back at it again. | 46:18 |
- | Right. | 46:21 |
- | Does that? | 46:21 |
- | Oh yes, yes. | 46:22 |
That's really good, that's really good. | 46:23 | |
And I know you're really involved in this. | 46:26 | |
Thinking about Re-Imagining today, | 46:28 | |
what are your thoughts about, | 46:31 | |
what does it mean to Re-Imagine today? | 46:33 | |
As we're passing it on, what does it mean? | 46:35 | |
- | I don't know. | 46:38 |
And in some ways that's the exciting piece about it, | 46:40 | |
is not knowing. | 46:45 | |
And part of it is that I've been, | 46:48 | |
I meant the president of our denomination | 46:54 | |
is very much into the whole millennial thing, | 46:56 | |
and the church 3.0. | 46:59 | |
We've talked about, again, | 47:04 | |
being more diverse and younger. | 47:09 | |
And the millennialists, and Black Lives Matter, | 47:13 | |
and all these pieces that are out there somehow. | 47:18 | |
How do we fit into that? | 47:26 | |
How do we... | 47:29 | |
How do we let happen what needs to happen? | 47:33 | |
How do we encourage what needs to happen, to happen? | 47:37 | |
When we don't know what it looks like. | 47:41 | |
We don't know what it means. | 47:45 | |
I don't, and I've read books. | 47:48 | |
I'm doing a variety of things | 47:51 | |
but I don't know what church 3.0 is going to look like. | 47:54 | |
- | So what can we do? | 48:01 |
What are we doing to try to make it happen? | 48:03 | |
- | Well I think part of it is | 48:05 |
hoping to get some younger people on board. | 48:08 | |
- | Right. | 48:11 |
- | The webpage is going to make a big difference. | 48:11 |
The work we're doing with seminaries, | 48:15 | |
where there are hopefully some of these millennialists | 48:17 | |
who are going to seminary and graduating. | 48:20 | |
Who will be part of whatever is going to be taking place | 48:23 | |
20 or 30 years ago, | 48:26 | |
and again what we need to do | 48:27 | |
is build relationships with 'em. | 48:28 | |
We have to build the relationships with them | 48:32 | |
and we have to be able to say to them, | 48:33 | |
"We're not trying to get you to create what we did. | 48:37 | |
"We don't want you to recreate what we did. | 48:40 | |
"We want to be midwives to whatever may be next, | 48:44 | |
"and we're here for you. | 48:54 | |
"But not to tell you what it needs to be." | 48:58 | |
But we have to get those relationships built first. | 49:02 | |
- | Right. | 49:05 |
- | And just as we built relationships | 49:06 |
among ourselves when we put together the 1993 event, | 49:08 | |
and each of the ones that followed. | 49:12 | |
I thing the 2018, 25th anniversary piece | 49:15 | |
will make a difference. | 49:20 | |
And it's set here where we are. | 49:22 | |
- | Yes. | 49:25 |
- | So, there can be a tangible handing off. | 49:26 |
Psychological, emotional, tangible handing off. | 49:33 | |
And see what happens going into the future. | 49:38 | |
They will be more diverse than we are, | 49:43 | |
they will have altogether different thoughts than we have. | 49:46 | |
They won't necessarily trust institutions. | 49:54 | |
I know they don't believe in universal truth, | 49:57 | |
which I think is exciting, personally. | 50:01 | |
So that's what I see that needs to happen. | 50:05 | |
But again it's the relationships, | 50:12 | |
and we have to figure out how to do that. | 50:14 | |
- | Mhmm, mhmm. | 50:18 |
I have one last practical question. | 50:21 | |
You mentioned the website. | 50:22 | |
Do you have ideas about what to include in it? | 50:24 | |
Who would benefit from it? | 50:27 | |
How to get it out there? | 50:31 | |
Any ideas about the website and how to do it? | 50:32 | |
- | Well, (laughs), | 50:37 |
I think it has to have links to our partners in all of this, | 50:40 | |
including the new one that you just identified. | 50:46 | |
- | Christian Feminism Today. | 50:50 |
- | Yup, yup. | 50:51 |
- | Mhmm. | 50:53 |
- | I think it needs to have documents, | 50:53 |
or at least where they are. | 50:58 | |
I think if people can, | 50:59 | |
is it possible for people to actually hear | 51:01 | |
what Dolores Williams said? | 51:05 | |
- | Yeah, yeah. | 51:06 |
- | I think those need to be there | 51:08 |
from the beginning. | 51:10 | |
- | Right. | 51:11 |
- | I think ways to make connections, | 51:14 |
ways to be involved, | 51:17 | |
ways to contact us, ways... | 51:20 | |
I'm limited (laughs). | 51:25 | |
(both women laugh) | 51:26 | |
- | This all sounds good Mary Kay (laughs). | 51:27 |
- | I use websites, | 51:31 |
and I've had people in churches create one for a church, | 51:34 | |
but I've not... | 51:37 | |
- | Yeah. | 51:38 |
- | Yeah. | 51:39 |
It's one of those things, | 51:40 | |
you know a good one when you see it. | 51:41 | |
- | Yes, yup. | 51:43 |
Mhmm. | 51:45 | |
- | So, I'm so glad you're doing it. | 51:46 |
It just will make all the difference in the world. | 51:49 | |
You can't be anything in this world anymore | 51:52 | |
without a website. | 51:54 | |
- | Yeah, it's true. | 51:55 |
- | Yeah. | 51:56 |
- | Yeah. | 51:57 |
Is there anything we haven't discussed | 51:59 | |
that you would like to say? | 52:01 | |
Anything that's on your heart, | 52:03 | |
or anything that we've missed that's important to you? | 52:04 | |
- | No, I think you've pulled out more | 52:13 |
than I even thought. | 52:15 | |
(both women laugh) | 52:15 | |
- | Well, it was a wonderful conversation. | 52:18 |
Thank you so much Mary Kay, | 52:21 | |
and thank you for all the work you're doing | 52:22 | |
to keep this goin'. | 52:24 | |
- | Well thank you for all you're doin' | 52:25 |
to keep it goin'. | 52:27 | |
- | Thank you. | 52:28 |
- | We're all in this together! | 52:28 |
- | We are, we are. | 52:29 |
Relationships right? | 52:30 | |
- | That's right. | 52:31 |
- | Exactly, still important. | 52:32 |