Strausz-Clement, John
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| - | John, thank you so much for agreeing to be interviewed. | 0:01 |
| If you can just say and spell your name. | 0:04 | |
| - | My name, my full name is John, J-O-H-N | 0:09 |
| Edward, E-D-W-A-R-D | 0:14 | |
| Strausz, S-T-R-A-U-S-Z | 0:17 | |
| Clement, C-L-E-M-E-N-T. | 0:21 | |
| - | Thank you very much. | 0:24 |
| And, are you lay or clergy? | 0:26 | |
| - | I am clergy. | 0:30 |
| - | And, your denomination is? | 0:32 |
| - | Presbyterian. | 0:35 |
| - | Thank you. | 0:36 |
| John, when and where were you born? | 0:37 | |
| - | I was born in Enid, Oklahoma. | 0:41 |
| - | Great. And, when were you born? | 0:46 |
| - | January 9, 1934. | 0:49 |
| - | Thank you very much. | 0:53 |
| Where did you go to school? | 0:54 | |
| Graduate, Divinity school ... | 0:56 | |
| - | I graduated from Oberlin College and went to | 0:59 |
| Union Theological Seminary. | 1:02 | |
| - | Oh, great. Thank you. | 1:04 |
| And John, what work or ministry were you doing | 1:06 | |
| at the time of Re-Imagining, in 1993? | 1:09 | |
| - | I was the executive of the Presbytery of Pittsburgh. | 1:13 |
| - | Okay. Thank you very much. | 1:19 |
| And, what work or ministry did you do after Re-Imagining? | 1:22 | |
| - | I did an interim ministry in Carlisle, Pennsylvania | 1:29 |
| in the Presbytery of Carlisle in Pennsylvania, | 1:33 | |
| for an interim after I left Pittsburgh. | 1:36 | |
| Then I went to a permanent position in | 1:38 | |
| Blackhawk Presbytery in Illinois. | 1:42 | |
| Oregon, Illinois. | 1:48 | |
| - | Okay, thank you. | 1:50 |
| John, how and when did you first become aware | 1:52 | |
| of feminist theology? | 1:55 | |
| - | With my former wife, | 2:02 |
| Jan Simpson Clement, | 2:04 | |
| who died before the conference began, | 2:08 | |
| but she was a strong feminist | 2:12 | |
| and did read feminist theology. | 2:14 | |
| She was an elder in the Presbyterian Church. | 2:16 | |
| - | Oh, okay. That's great. Okay. | 2:20 |
| So, you attended- you're wife at the time, Judy, | 2:23 | |
| was involved in planning the 1993 gathering, correct? | 2:28 | |
| - | Yes, I knew- it was after my wife had died. | 2:34 |
| Judy and I began conversations and | 2:40 | |
| she ended up- before we got married, she was working | 2:44 | |
| on the conference. | 2:47 | |
| And, she suggested that I might want to attend. | 2:49 | |
| I had never heard of it. | 2:52 | |
| And, so I did. | 2:54 | |
| I did go to my committee, my personnel committee | 2:57 | |
| and ask if I could use | 3:02 | |
| my Sunday leave time | 3:06 | |
| to go to the conference, and Sunday leave money, | 3:08 | |
| and they approved it. | 3:11 | |
| - | John, what do you recall about your experience | 3:12 |
| at the Re-Imagining conference? | 3:16 | |
| - | I found it very exciting. | 3:22 |
| Of course, I was only one of the 83 men, | 3:24 | |
| out of the several thousand women who were there. | 3:27 | |
| I was welcomed, and I sat at a table | 3:32 | |
| with all women, except myself, | 3:35 | |
| and I had a very positive experience with that table | 3:39 | |
| and with the conversations that went on there, | 3:44 | |
| and with the whole conference. | 3:47 | |
| - | Oh, that's good to hear. | 3:49 |
| Are there particular memories that you have | 3:51 | |
| from that conference | 3:54 | |
| that were very meaningful to you? | 3:55 | |
| - | Well, yes, I had not been familiar | 4:00 |
| with the theology of Sophia, | 4:04 | |
| and wisdom. | 4:07 | |
| So, that was a new experience for me, | 4:10 | |
| and new knowledge, | 4:12 | |
| so that was one of the very positive | 4:13 | |
| that I got. | 4:15 | |
| - | That's great. | 4:16 |
| I know that you were directly affected by the backlash. | 4:17 | |
| Could you talk about how you were affected by it? | 4:23 | |
| - | Well, let's see, how do I go about that? | 4:28 |
| After my wife died, I went- | 4:33 | |
| I had- | 4:38 | |
| My ability as an Executive was focused on | 4:42 | |
| being with her and with her death | 4:46 | |
| and sometime thereafter, | 4:48 | |
| in the- after that death. | 4:50 | |
| So, I don't think- I just- | 4:54 | |
| My own impression was that I was not being | 4:56 | |
| as effective as a Presbyter Executive | 4:59 | |
| that I should be. | 5:02 | |
| Anyway, after, | 5:03 | |
| after my wife died, | 5:06 | |
| and Judy and I- | 5:08 | |
| Judy had mentioned the conference | 5:10 | |
| and she- about five months before our marriage. | 5:14 | |
| Then when we got married in November, | 5:20 | |
| I mean, we got married in May 30th, | 5:23 | |
| let's see what was the date? | 5:28 | |
| It was in May 30th, 1993. | 5:34 | |
| And the conference took place in November. | 5:39 | |
| - | Right. | 5:42 |
| - | And so, well I had already heard about the conference | 5:44 |
| before we got married and I had already | 5:48 | |
| made plans to attend it. | 5:50 | |
| Now, did I answer the question, | 5:53 | |
| or is there still more that I need to say? | 5:54 | |
| - | Oh, well that's helpful, | 5:57 |
| that explains how you went to the conference. | 5:58 | |
| Now, just to be clear, were you already- | 6:01 | |
| you were already Executive Presbyter | 6:04 | |
| in Pittsburgh at the time of the conference. | 6:07 | |
| - | That is correct. | 6:10 |
| - | Okay. | 6:10 |
| - | I was Executive with my wife Jan there with me in '92, | 6:11 |
| so, yes, I was there. | 6:18 | |
| - | Okay, good. So, then you and Judy got married in May. | 6:19 |
| You attended the conference. | 6:24 | |
| You were in Pittsburgh Presbytery. | 6:26 | |
| - | Correct. | 6:30 |
| - | And then you were- | |
| How were you affected by the backlash against Re-Imagining? | 6:32 | |
| - | Well, I think, you know, there was, what happened | 6:38 |
| was that on the- in January, the conference | 6:42 | |
| was in November, | 6:46 | |
| the first Presbyterian meeting in January. | 6:48 | |
| I was attacked verbally on the floor | 6:52 | |
| of the Presbytery for attending the conference. | 6:54 | |
| And, the next meeting of the Presbytery in February | 6:57 | |
| I gave that statement, which you have, | 7:02 | |
| - | Yes. | 7:06 |
| - | Defending the Presbyterian understanding | 7:07 |
| of reformation and reform, | 7:13 | |
| reform and constantly reforming. | 7:17 | |
| And that Presbyterians are open to hearing new ideas | 7:20 | |
| and new ways of thinking about the scripture and faith. | 7:24 | |
| And, that statement clarifies | 7:30 | |
| what I was trying to say. | 7:33 | |
| That's how it affected me. | 7:36 | |
| Following that, | 7:38 | |
| through the year following that, | 7:42 | |
| that was in 1995, | 7:46 | |
| was it? | 7:50 | |
| Or, 1994. | 7:51 | |
| - | Right. | 7:52 |
| - | Following that year there were some | 7:53 |
| I guess people who felt that I was not, | 8:00 | |
| was not | 8:04 | |
| the executive I should be, | 8:06 | |
| and Pittsburgh Presbytery is a very, very | 8:09 | |
| conservative Presbytery. | 8:14 | |
| And I am not a very, very conservative person. | 8:16 | |
| Or, theologically I am not. | 8:20 | |
| So, there might have been some minor conflict there. | 8:23 | |
| But, there was a group that I suspect, | 8:27 | |
| I cannot say for sure, but I suspect | 8:31 | |
| formed a cabal to get rid of me. | 8:33 | |
| And, I do remember saying to my staff, | 8:39 | |
| I'm not planning to leave, | 8:41 | |
| I'm planning to retire from here. | 8:43 | |
| So, I knew there was something going on | 8:44 | |
| in the background. | 8:46 | |
| But, I didn't know exactly what it was. | 8:48 | |
| They, or this group, or persons | 8:50 | |
| who didn't want me around | 8:53 | |
| finally got our general council in January | 8:56 | |
| to set up a special committee to review my work. | 9:02 | |
| And, I had already been reviewed | 9:09 | |
| by the personnel committee, so why did they | 9:10 | |
| need to do that? | 9:12 | |
| But, they did it anyway, and the committee was set up | 9:14 | |
| to review my work. | 9:16 | |
| And that committee interviewed me several times, | 9:18 | |
| had several meetings with me, | 9:23 | |
| and I realized at the time | 9:25 | |
| that I was in trouble. | 9:27 | |
| So, I asked some Executives in nearby Presbyteries, | 9:29 | |
| whom I knew, to go to the meetings with me, | 9:34 | |
| well none of them were able to make | 9:37 | |
| those committee meetings, and so, | 9:39 | |
| one did, and one came one time. | 9:41 | |
| So, I asked the Synod Executive, | 9:45 | |
| which is- do you know the Presbyterian system? | 9:47 | |
| - | Not all the details of it, honestly. | 9:51 |
| - | Well, the Presbyteries belong to a geographic area | 9:54 |
| called a synod, and the Synod Executive | 9:59 | |
| is kind of the coordinator for the Executives | 10:01 | |
| and the Presbyteries within that geographic area. | 10:06 | |
| I asked the Synod Executive to come to the meetings with me, | 10:10 | |
| and he | 10:14 | |
| was also unable to come, | 10:17 | |
| or decided not to come. | 10:19 | |
| And, I believe he might have made a phone call, | 10:21 | |
| but that was all, and then he gave Tom | 10:23 | |
| the equivocal support. | 10:26 | |
| So, I felt very much alone. | 10:29 | |
| So, I went, I got | 10:31 | |
| a retired attorney | 10:33 | |
| who was known to be very feisty | 10:36 | |
| and very supportive of his clients, | 10:38 | |
| and he went with me pro-bono | 10:41 | |
| to some of the meetings, | 10:44 | |
| and let the committee know that I | 10:46 | |
| was not going re-routed. | 10:49 | |
| So, that's how it went. | 10:53 | |
| The committee, the personal, special committee | 10:57 | |
| that was established came to me in May of that year. | 11:00 | |
| I believe it was May of that year. | 11:06 | |
| They had a special meeting with me first, I guess. | 11:12 | |
| They came to me with the- | 11:17 | |
| They invited me to come to lunch | 11:20 | |
| with two of the members, three of the members | 11:24 | |
| of the committee. | 11:27 | |
| So, I didn't know what they wanted. | 11:29 | |
| I didn't know why they were inviting me to lunch. | 11:31 | |
| They didn't give me any agenda for the lunch. | 11:34 | |
| So, I went to lunch, and at the lunch | 11:36 | |
| they said that they were going to ask me to resign, | 11:40 | |
| they had a report and they were gonna bring that report | 11:43 | |
| to the Presbytery meeting | 11:48 | |
| on May the 25th. | 11:51 | |
| And, they said they were gonna- | 11:54 | |
| They would offer me a three month's severance. | 11:57 | |
| If I would resign. | 12:03 | |
| I was totally surprised. | 12:06 | |
| Totally surprised. | 12:08 | |
| I wasn't expecting this. | 12:09 | |
| I refused to give them- | 12:13 | |
| they pressed me for an answer, | 12:15 | |
| and I refused to give them an answer. | 12:17 | |
| Left half my lunch on the table and walked out. | 12:19 | |
| And then Judy and I spent a lot of time thinking about this, | 12:27 | |
| talking about it, in fact we had been thinking | 12:32 | |
| and talking about it even before that meeting took place. | 12:35 | |
| And praying about it. And so, on May the 10th, | 12:38 | |
| I announced at the Presbytery Council meeting, | 12:43 | |
| I decided I wanted to take | 12:48 | |
| responsibility for my own life | 12:53 | |
| and not have somebody push me out. | 12:55 | |
| So, I chose to announce my retirement. | 12:57 | |
| I would take charge and announce my retirement, | 13:01 | |
| effective May the 31st. | 13:04 | |
| That then got published in the Presbyterian. | 13:09 | |
| Quite a few members of the Presbyter, | 13:12 | |
| they called me and asked me to think about | 13:15 | |
| rescinding my resignation, because they felt like | 13:18 | |
| I was well enough liked and supported | 13:22 | |
| that I had enough support that I could | 13:26 | |
| win this challenge. | 13:30 | |
| And, on the 25th of May, when the Presbytery meeting met, | 13:35 | |
| the Presbytery voted to accept my resignation, | 13:45 | |
| although they had to send somebody to. | 13:48 | |
| I sat in a separate room, I didn't even go inside | 13:50 | |
| where the Presbytery meeting was meeting. | 13:53 | |
| I sat in a separate room, | 13:55 | |
| they sent a person to that room | 13:57 | |
| and said, "Would you be willing to | 14:00 | |
| take your resignation off the table?" | 14:02 | |
| And, I said, "No, I've made the decision, | 14:07 | |
| I'm gonna stick with it." | 14:10 | |
| So, we went back, and the Presbytery voted | 14:12 | |
| to accept my resignation, but they gave me | 14:14 | |
| a year | 14:18 | |
| severance pay. | 14:22 | |
| Or, as much as- up until I got a new job. | 14:25 | |
| So, if I could find in six months, | 14:30 | |
| I would get six months severance, | 14:33 | |
| if I got three months, I'd get three months, | 14:35 | |
| if I got ten months, I'd get ten months, and so forth. | 14:37 | |
| So, that night, after I had resigned, | 14:44 | |
| they voted that, for the full year. | 14:47 | |
| Then my friends came to me and said, look, | 14:51 | |
| you've got a year's vacation, take it. | 14:54 | |
| I didn't. | 14:58 | |
| It was tempting, of course. | 14:59 | |
| But, I didn't take it. | 15:01 | |
| And, within two months, I was the Interim Executive | 15:03 | |
| in Carlisle Presbyterian. | 15:07 | |
| - | Wow, John, that's quite an experience you went through. | 15:12 |
| - | Judy- | 15:17 |
| - | Yes? | 15:18 |
| - | Judy later on said that, if I hadn't- | 15:19 |
| let me say a little bit more about the Presbytery. | 15:28 | |
| - | Yes. | 15:31 |
| - | Let's see, Judy and I spent many hours talking about this, | 15:38 |
| resignation is effective. | 15:42 | |
| Friends urged me to take a vacation, yes. | 15:45 | |
| Okay. | 15:49 | |
| Oh, letter to the editor, Pittsburgh Post-Gazette. | 15:50 | |
| On June the 6th, after that Presbyterian meeting | 15:54 | |
| where I resigned, the reverend Robert R. Kopp, | 15:57 | |
| the conservative pastor of Logan's Ferry | 16:03 | |
| Presbyterian Church wrote in the letter to the paper: | 16:05 | |
| "While being an Executive in Pittsburgh Presbytery | 16:10 | |
| is like putting on a deer skin and walking | 16:13 | |
| through the woods on the first day | 16:17 | |
| of hunting season, | 16:19 | |
| it must be said loud and clear | 16:21 | |
| that most members of Pittsburgh Presbytery | 16:23 | |
| liked and affirmed our recently resigned | 16:26 | |
| Executive Presbytery. | 16:29 | |
| His ministry was liked and affirmed | 16:31 | |
| by liberals, conservatives and moderates. | 16:33 | |
| He was undermined and eventually encouraged to resign | 16:36 | |
| by folks with dubious motives." | 16:40 | |
| - | Wow. | 16:44 |
| - | Then Judy said later, reflecting on our experience noted | 16:45 |
| that the tensions, the stress, and the pressures | 16:51 | |
| of the job, with the conflicts that went with it said, | 16:54 | |
| "If we had stayed you probably would be dead by now." | 16:59 | |
| - | Oh, John. Wow. | 17:05 |
| - | So, how did it affect me? | 17:10 |
| - | Yeah. Wow. I just- this all happened in 1994? | 17:15 |
| Is that correct? | 17:19 | |
| - | '94 and '95. | 17:21 |
| I was attacked on the Presbytery floor | 17:25 | |
| in January of '94, and my resignation took place | 17:28 | |
| in May of '95. | 17:33 | |
| - | Oh. And, so that was a long time. | 17:36 |
| - | That period in '94, that period is what I was | 17:40 |
| talking about when I knew there was rumblings | 17:44 | |
| going on in the Presbytery, | 17:47 | |
| and then the Presbytery general council | 17:49 | |
| formed a special committee in January of '95, | 17:55 | |
| and then my resignation took place in May of '95. | 18:00 | |
| - | Thank you for clarifying that. | 18:05 |
| Now, who were the members of the committee? | 18:06 | |
| I don't necessarily need names, but who | 18:08 | |
| would be on the committee? Elders? | 18:10 | |
| - | Some pastors and some laypeople. | 18:15 |
| - | Okay. | 18:17 |
| - | And there was a judge on there | 18:18 |
| that I will not name, | 18:19 | |
| who was on the search committee when they called me | 18:21 | |
| and they put him on the committee as well. | 18:25 | |
| But there were members of the Presbytery, | 18:28 | |
| some pastors and some laypeople, | 18:31 | |
| I do not now know how many. | 18:34 | |
| It was probably six or seven. | 18:38 | |
| - | And you had mentioned they asked you questions, John. | 18:42 |
| What kind of questions were they asking you? | 18:45 | |
| - | Well, I think they asked me- | 18:51 |
| they asked me questions like, | 18:56 | |
| do you return your phone calls? | 18:59 | |
| Do you answer your letters? | 19:02 | |
| Of course I did all of that, stupid questions. | 19:05 | |
| The- | 19:09 | |
| The committee wanted to know- I think | 19:14 | |
| I remember now, I read the committee report | 19:17 | |
| that's been destroyed, and I don't have it. | 19:20 | |
| Because the committee report never got on | 19:23 | |
| the floor of the Presbyterian. | 19:26 | |
| Because of my resignation, | 19:29 | |
| that was never read, never brought | 19:31 | |
| to the floor of the Presbytery. | 19:34 | |
| So, that report is dead and gone. | 19:36 | |
| And, so, I'm just doing this from memory, | 19:39 | |
| but they- one of the accusations that I felt | 19:41 | |
| was very wrong was that I hadn't raised money | 19:44 | |
| for the Presbytery. | 19:47 | |
| And, of course, I had, but- | 19:50 | |
| And, there were other questions in that report | 19:54 | |
| that I could have fought, | 19:58 | |
| and my attorney could have helped me with that, | 20:00 | |
| but I chose not to do it. | 20:03 | |
| - | What do you actually think was behind this committee? | 20:07 |
| - | I think probably the fact that I | 20:14 |
| was too liberal | 20:21 | |
| for the Presbytery and I admit that. | 20:22 | |
| I was really surprised that I became | 20:25 | |
| the Executive of the Presbytery, I had been warned | 20:27 | |
| by the Synod Executive where I was Presbytery Executive | 20:30 | |
| in Syracuse, New York. | 20:35 | |
| The Synod Executive Eugene Turner was counseling me, | 20:39 | |
| said, that's a very conservative Presbytery, | 20:44 | |
| I wouldn't go there. | 20:46 | |
| Well, I didn't listen to him. | 20:47 | |
| And, I went, and so, I think the fact that | 20:49 | |
| I was not a good fit, | 20:51 | |
| theologically, | 20:56 | |
| for the Presbytery was behind it, | 20:58 | |
| as well as the fact that I went to the- | 21:00 | |
| publicly went to the Re-Imagining conference. | 21:03 | |
| - | How big a role do you think your attendance | 21:08 |
| at the Re-Imagining conference played? | 21:11 | |
| - | Well, it was certainly a start. | 21:16 |
| I think the fact that my wife had died, | 21:20 | |
| I didn't function very well for a while, | 21:22 | |
| even though, as I look back on it, | 21:27 | |
| and I look back at my reports, | 21:29 | |
| I had work objectives which I had accomplished, | 21:32 | |
| even while all of that was going on. | 21:37 | |
| But, I think that the fact that- | 21:41 | |
| that probably helped, plus the fact that | 21:45 | |
| I was theologically liberal, | 21:48 | |
| and that I attended the conference. | 21:50 | |
| All three probably contributed to the fact | 21:53 | |
| that I was asked to resign. | 21:56 | |
| - | John, how do you account for the backlash | 22:00 |
| against Re-Imagining in general? | 22:03 | |
| - | Oh, well, the late committee was very- | 22:07 |
| and you've probably heard this from a lot of people, | 22:14 | |
| the late committee had a published paper called, | 22:18 | |
| "The Layman," and it's a conservative element | 22:22 | |
| of the whole Presbyterian Church. | 22:27 | |
| It's constantly attacking social justice | 22:31 | |
| and liberal issues of the church. | 22:35 | |
| And, they just lambasted the conference, | 22:38 | |
| calling it heretical. | 22:40 | |
| And, I had called the conference - not publicly, | 22:43 | |
| but to Judy and to friends - it was a watershed | 22:47 | |
| for the Presbyterian Church. | 22:50 | |
| - | In what sense would you say it was a watershed, John? | 22:54 |
| - | Well, it totally opened up new avenues of thinking | 22:59 |
| about the scripture. | 23:06 | |
| The feminist theology saw things in scripture | 23:08 | |
| that the men had never seen. | 23:12 | |
| And that new knowledge, | 23:16 | |
| new insight into the scriptures, | 23:20 | |
| from a woman's womanist point of view, | 23:24 | |
| was very significant. | 23:29 | |
| And, it was a new turn in the whole understanding | 23:30 | |
| of the theology. | 23:36 | |
| And, that's why I call it a watershed, | 23:39 | |
| because it was a turn, | 23:40 | |
| a switch, a movement in a new direction. | 23:44 | |
| A lot more women coming into the Presbyterian church, | 23:50 | |
| through seminaries and through being called in the church. | 23:54 | |
| That had already begun, and it was becoming | 23:57 | |
| more and more so. | 24:00 | |
| And, I think now, | 24:02 | |
| seminaries now probably have more women, | 24:05 | |
| or at least have women in the seminary, | 24:09 | |
| as there are men. | 24:11 | |
| And, I think that that whole element gave women | 24:14 | |
| a new enthusiasm for their theology, | 24:18 | |
| and their faith as well. | 24:23 | |
| As well as men. | 24:26 | |
| - | Yes. Yes. Before I forget, I wanted to ask | 24:27 |
| if you attended the 1994 General Assembly, | 24:32 | |
| where the report was issued about Re-Imaging, | 24:37 | |
| and if you have any memories of that? | 24:40 | |
| - | Yes, well I think John Buchanan was the chair | 24:44 |
| of the committee, I believe he was. | 24:48 | |
| - | He was, and I've interviewed him, yes. | 24:50 |
| - | So, I do remember that, and they gave | 24:53 |
| a very balanced report back to the whole church | 24:56 | |
| that was adopted by the General Assembly. | 25:02 | |
| It wasn't a condemnation of the Re-Imagining conference, | 25:05 | |
| they did not do that. | 25:08 | |
| They supported the women in the Re-Imagining conference, | 25:10 | |
| but they gave a balanced report. | 25:14 | |
| Now, I can't remember how the balanced- | 25:16 | |
| what the details of that report was, | 25:20 | |
| but I was watching that meeting and sitting in that meeting, | 25:23 | |
| both Judy and I were sitting in that meeting while John | 25:26 | |
| and the committee worked on their response | 25:30 | |
| to the Re-Imagining conference. | 25:33 | |
| And, I think they gave a very balanced report. | 25:35 | |
| - | Oh, great. Thank you, I appreciate that. | 25:38 |
| In the end, John, what aspects of Re-Imagining | 25:41 | |
| were more significant to you, and why? | 25:44 | |
| - | Well, I think I've already spoken to that, | 25:51 |
| the fact that there was new insight in scripture, | 25:57 | |
| and new insight into our faith, | 26:00 | |
| from the womanist point of view, | 26:02 | |
| was the most significant thing that had happened, | 26:04 | |
| and it was the most significant thing for me. | 26:06 | |
| - | Yes, good. Did your involvement in | 26:09 |
| the Re-Imagining conference and the backlash | 26:12 | |
| change your perspective on feminist theology | 26:15 | |
| or the church? | 26:18 | |
| - | No, it just confirmed it. | 26:22 |
| - | What did it confirm? | 26:25 |
| - | Well, I was subliminal feminist before | 26:28 |
| the conference ever took place. | 26:31 | |
| So, it simply affirmed, | 26:37 | |
| as I said I got new knowledge and new understanding, | 26:40 | |
| but it was, I thought it was great, | 26:43 | |
| and it affirmed, for me it just affirmed | 26:47 | |
| what Jan and then Judy had, | 26:51 | |
| and I had talked about, | 26:54 | |
| and studied. | 26:58 | |
| - | Yes. Yeah. | 26:59 |
| In the end, what do you think is the greatest legacy | 27:01 | |
| of Re-Imagining? | 27:05 | |
| - | Well, I guess I just have to repeat myself, | 27:11 |
| the new understanding of the scripture, | 27:14 | |
| it was not cold, but looking at Sophia, | 27:16 | |
| looking at the Orthodox Church, | 27:24 | |
| there's a church named Sophia. | 27:27 | |
| - | Yes. | 27:30 |
| - | That's not new, but it was new for Presbyterians | 27:31 |
| and it was new for me. | 27:36 | |
| I think the most significant thing was that | 27:40 | |
| they opened up the eyes of women, | 27:44 | |
| and ears of women to theology that | 27:48 | |
| they can affirm and be part of. | 27:53 | |
| - | Yeah. That's really helpful. | 27:58 |
| And, it sounded like the word Sophia | 27:59 | |
| resonated with you as well. | 28:03 | |
| - | It did. | 28:06 |
| - | In what way, John? | 28:07 |
| - | Well- | 28:09 |
| It did for me, because you think, | 28:15 | |
| as Presbyterians, we think of God | 28:18 | |
| as God the father or mother, | 28:21 | |
| and that also is important, | 28:25 | |
| to think of God as mother as well as father. | 28:27 | |
| And, there are other images in scripture, | 28:32 | |
| we think God is mocking other things | 28:36 | |
| there are in scripture, | 28:39 | |
| and the God as the son, Jesus, | 28:41 | |
| and God as spirit, | 28:45 | |
| but spirit could be translated: wisdom. | 28:47 | |
| And, God could be female as well as male. | 28:51 | |
| - | Yeah. | 28:56 |
| - | Because wisdom in the scripture is female. | 28:57 |
| - | Right. Yeah. | 29:00 |
| Two of the goals of Re-Imagining were | 29:03 | |
| to bring inclusive language and feminist theology | 29:06 | |
| to Christian churches. | 29:10 | |
| How would you evaluate where we are today in that? | 29:12 | |
| - | Well, I think that's what the watershed is all about. | 29:16 |
| A lot of our churches now are inclusive in the language, | 29:23 | |
| the new pastors that are coming in, | 29:27 | |
| more inclusive. | 29:30 | |
| The women pastors had been there for a long time, | 29:31 | |
| but the new male pastors coming in | 29:33 | |
| are using inclusive language too. | 29:35 | |
| It's only the perhaps very conservative | 29:38 | |
| who simply will not accept anything but God the father | 29:41 | |
| and male theology | 29:46 | |
| may still be resistant, | 29:49 | |
| but I think as a total church, | 29:50 | |
| I think the church has moved to inclusive language. | 29:54 | |
| - | Mm-hmm. Great. And, I have two final questions. | 29:59 |
| John, what do you think Re-Imagining means today? | 30:03 | |
| In other words, what is or should be Re-Imagined | 30:07 | |
| in the church today? | 30:10 | |
| - | Huh. Good question. | 30:15 |
| I haven't been thinking about that. | 30:18 | |
| What should the church be doing today? | 30:23 | |
| - | Yeah. | 30:26 |
| - | Well, I don't know, | 30:31 |
| I would assume that maybe the church, | 30:35 | |
| maybe the more conservative element of the church | 30:39 | |
| may come along and join | 30:42 | |
| in the inclusive language | 30:45 | |
| and the understanding of scripture, not only | 30:48 | |
| from their point of view, but also | 30:52 | |
| from the point of view of feminists. | 30:54 | |
| - | Yeah, yeah. Good, thank you. | 30:57 |
| And my final question is, | 31:00 | |
| we are working on a Re-Imagining website, | 31:02 | |
| it will be both historical, we're digitizing | 31:06 | |
| all the conferences, but also including resources, | 31:09 | |
| current resources, and I'm wondering if you- | 31:14 | |
| - | Current what? Resources? | 31:17 |
| - | Resources, yes, links to other organizations, or- | 31:20 |
| - | Oh, okay. | 31:26 |
| - | And, I'm wondering if you have ideas | 31:27 |
| about what could be included in the website. | 31:29 | |
| That would be helpful. | 31:33 | |
| - | Huh. | 31:35 |
| Huh. | 31:38 | |
| You've probably got more ideas than I do | 31:39 | |
| about this. | 31:42 | |
| I'm on the computer every day, but I don't know, | 31:45 | |
| I suppose an interactive | 31:51 | |
| website that people could | 31:57 | |
| put information in and receive information back, | 31:59 | |
| and get in discussions, but I'm sure | 32:02 | |
| you already do that now, or are planning to do that, | 32:04 | |
| but that, I think, would be a good website. | 32:08 | |
| - | Yes, well, that's good to hear. | 32:11 |
| That's encouraging. | 32:13 | |
| I have so appreciated your thoughts and time, | 32:15 | |
| is there anything that we have not discussed | 32:19 | |
| that you would like to add? | 32:21 | |
| - | Um, not that I know of, | 32:25 |
| Judy and I are very appreciative | 32:31 | |
| of the fact that you're doing this | 32:32 | |
| and, oh, is this going to end up | 32:35 | |
| in the book, as well? | 32:37 | |
| - | Yeah, hold on one second, I'm gonna turn off the recording | 32:38 |
| so hold on one second. | 32:40 | |
| - | Okay. | 32:42 |