Elkins, Heather Murray / Re-Imagining Collection / Duke Digital Repository

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Well Heather thank you so much

0:04

for agreeing to be interviewed.

0:05

If I could get some background first.

0:06

And if you could please say

0:08

and maybe spell your full name.

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Yes, Heather Murray Elkins.

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Great and how do you spell that?

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It's H-e-a-t-h-e-r

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M-u-r-r-a-y E-l-k-i-n-s.

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Great, thank you very much.

0:29

And, are you lay or clergy?

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Clergy.

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Great, and your denominational affiliation?

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United Methodist and it's the West

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Virginia Annual Conference.

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Okay, thank you.

0:42

And, Heather when and where you born?

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In West Virginia, nearest town,

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I guess you'd go with the town, is Parkersburg and 1948.

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Wonderful, thank you.

0:56

And, where did you go to graduate and or divinity school?

0:58

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Two stages, I got my first masters

1:04

at the University of Arizona in fine arts and play writing.

1:08

And then, I graduated from Duke with an M Duke

1:12

and then from Drew with a PhD.

1:16

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Okay, wonderful.

1:20

And, what work or ministry were you doing

1:22

at the time of Re-Imagining?

1:24

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At the time of Re-Imagining I was a new

1:28

faculty member at Drew.

1:31

I had been a graduate student here.

1:34

And then, a chaplain here at the university.

1:38

And then, I joined the faculty in 1990.

1:41

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Um-hm, and that's where you still are now.

1:45

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Yes.

1:48

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Great, wonderful.

1:49

Heather, do you recall how and when

1:52

you first became aware of feminist theology?

1:53

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The use of the term came much later

2:00

than the experience of it.

2:04

And, I've thought over the years how to explain it.

2:09

I would say primarily raised

2:12

in an Appalachian environment

2:18

that was basically matriarchal.

2:22

The way in which we constituted ourselves

2:25

as an extended family.

2:28

So, the difficulty

2:31

of moving from a matriarchal

2:37

mindset to an alternative,

2:42

it must have happened very early, very young.

2:47

Again, we an Appalachian extended family

2:51

growing up between, we spent part of the year

2:58

in the deserts outside of Tucson

3:03

and the other summers back in West Virginia.

3:07

So, we were dislocated in some ways

3:11

from the sort of

3:14

the exposure of, I would call

3:18

a understoodness about how God is Father,

3:24

even though that was certainly the language,

3:29

the experience wasn't that.

3:33

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Oh, interesting.

3:35

That's amaz--

3:37

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The other pieces

of, and I've learned over the years to think about this

3:39

as to why.

3:41

In West Virginia we were in small, very small

3:43

country churches where women's leadership

3:49

per force is very strong because

3:52

they can't afford educated, i.e. men clergy.

3:55

So, that role was very evident.

4:00

And then, in the Arizona setting

4:03

we were literally, the church began

4:07

in our living room.

4:11

My mother just rounded up a bunch of people.

4:14

And, it's now a congregation of about 1800.

4:17

(gasps)

4:23

So, to see church, it was just sort of,

4:24

I think so new churching and dying churches

4:30

have a great strange, wonderful opportunity

4:35

for both children, girl children as well as

4:40

boys, but that certainly women because they're

4:47

being born when they're dying, one or the other.

4:50

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Well, I'm curious, this is interesting,

4:53

so what kind of roles did women play in those churches?

4:55

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Well, for example in West Virginia as United Methodist

5:00

1956 there was finally the vote to allow women

5:06

to become fully ordained.

5:11

But, in the mountains area when that vote came in '56

5:15

there were already probably 12 to 17 women

5:21

who's names we had who were traveling elders.

5:27

They didn't have full ordination,

5:32

but they were preaching and leading congregations.

5:35

And, so maybe that's an Appalachian thing.

5:41

I'm not sure, but there were women already

5:43

in full administrative, not acknowledged

5:46

and that, in Appalachia.

5:49

My hunch is that might be very common, if somebody

5:53

looked at records in rural church areas.

5:57

So, that's one explanation,

6:03

just the they were needed and so they were there.

6:08

And, there was always a sense that

6:13

women could do the teaching

6:18

and the preaching, particularly as it came through

6:23

in terms of testimony was very present.

6:26

And, I think if you are dealing with a church

6:33

that is deeply missional the history of women

6:36

and mission is so deep and wide.

6:40

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Yes.

6:43

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That again, removes barriers.

6:44

It's when the church got established main stream,

6:46

the hierarchalable places being entity set,

6:50

I think.

6:54

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Mm-hm.

That is wonderful, that is wonderful.

6:56

And, when you first, I assume was it in,

6:59

well when was it in your schooling

7:02

that you encounter more formal feminist theology?

7:03

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It would have been at Duke.

7:07

Now again, prior to Duke I taught on a Navajo reservation

7:11

for almost three years.

7:17

And, not to, again, miss the point, they are

7:20

so matrilineal and the identity

7:24

of a woman's role in Navajo society is still

7:30

very different than what we would assume.

7:34

So, when it came to Duke, at Duke there was

7:38

a woman named Jill Ray who was the first

7:43

identifiable feminist who used that language.

7:47

She's a Roman Catholic.

7:53

A wonderful Reformation scholar,

7:55

I assume you may know her.

7:58

Anyway, she went on to head

8:00

oh gosh I forget what university she went to from Duke.

8:06

She was the first and she caused quite a stir

8:10

because I believe she's been a nun and then

8:16

left the order and openly

8:20

taught classes about women in religion.

8:25

That would have been in '74.

8:30

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Wow.

8:35

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So, at one point,

8:37

there's a great story.

8:40

I'll tell you the story because I want to,

8:43

there's another woman whose work I assume

8:45

you may about, Jeanette Stokes.

8:48

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Uh-huh.

8:50

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Who has the organization about south of the garden.

8:51

It's a women's center down still in Durham.

8:54

She was in the same class I was in.

8:57

And, so there was group of those of us

9:00

who identified with women's studies, women's center

9:05

because there was a lot that,

9:09

one there was still not very many women,

9:13

and there was a very strong need to identify that way.

9:16

And, I can remember when the people that had came out

9:22

about the natural resemblements to Christ.

9:27

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Yes.

9:32

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At that, that was the reason why women would

9:34

never be able to be priests.

9:36

And, we read, Jeanette and I read about it

9:42

in the hallway, we were just kind of going over this

9:46

and Jill Ray, class with meetings, so we couldn't talk

9:49

with her about it.

9:54

So, we went on to the class we could.

9:55

And, it was Father Roland Mercy who worked on it,

9:57

the Jerusalem Bible, anyway it was his class.

10:03

He was a wonderful teacher.

10:05

But, Jeanette in the kind of time when you can ask questions

10:08

raised her hand.

10:14

She was a very slight woman with a wonderful

10:16

southern accent, which I don't do well in imitating.

10:20

But anyway, she raises her hand and says,

10:25

"Father Mercy, can you explain to us why

10:30

"the Pope thinks women can't be priests?"

10:32

And, of course, I think there were maybe four

10:35

of us in the class that were women.

10:38

And, it caught him by surprise.

10:41

We were supposed to be studying the Psalms,

10:44

but he tried answering, explaining natural resemblance.

10:45

And then, made the mistake and said to Jeannette,

10:52

"Did that help?"

10:54

And she said, "Father Mercy, would you mind showing us

10:57

"your natural resemblance to God?"

11:00

(laughs)

11:02

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Oh my goodness.

11:05

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So, and anyway.

11:07

(laughs)

That was better the way it was.

11:11

When Jill Ray came up for tenure at the same time,

11:15

it was discovered she had breast cancer.

11:21

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Oh.

11:24

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And, the committee

11:26

recommended that they delay any decision.

11:31

One male professor who's not in the theological school

11:39

but was good friends with her rival

11:43

made this mistake of bragging that they were

11:49

waiting to see if she'd live long enough

11:51

to make it worth their while.

11:54

So, that was the kind of conversation.

12:01

So, they had a tradition of having faculty lunches

12:05

where people would present, of course,

12:10

she was the only woman.

12:13

And, after they had made that presentation,

12:15

that decision to wait, now she eventually

12:18

did get tenure, and then left Duke.

12:20

She was up for giving a presentation,

12:28

lunch time conversation.

12:31

And, we all waited outside in the stairwell

12:32

to see them when they came out from lunch

12:36

because she had presented part of the paper

12:39

in this grand studies class, that she was doing

12:42

on the myth of vagina dentata throughout the world.

12:47

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Really?

12:53

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And, that's the paper she read--

12:53

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Wow.

12:56

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While the men ate.

12:57

So, it was great.

13:01

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Wow.

Well, those are amazing stories, Heather, thank you.

13:05

(laughs)

13:08

Oh goodness.

13:10

Well, I have read your essay in remembering

13:11

and Re-Imagining where you talk about that painful decision

13:14

you had to make about whether to go to the '93 conference

13:17

or write that footnote.

13:20

And, I wondered if you could talk, I know you've

13:23

written some about it, but I would love

13:25

to hear a little more about what that

13:27

whole experience was like at Drew that you lived through.

13:29

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Well, in through around about I assume

13:36

that in your conversations with Alex and...

13:43

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Susan Morrison, yep.

13:49

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You realize that that basically started

13:51

long before it got to Drew.

13:55

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Mm-hmm, yes.

13:56

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That two things, I think, were triggered.

13:58

One,

14:03

my experience is that where there's

14:07

that kind of heat it's usually because

14:12

some kind of power base is shifting.

14:16

Susan Morrison's election as the first woman

14:20

in the northeast set off

14:23

deep triggers and packs of resistance.

14:27

And, her appointing Susan to one of the first

14:34

major, mainline churches did, too.

14:39

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Yes.

14:43

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So, those two things should always be bred

14:46

alongside whatever is going on with how you pray.

14:49

But, my first encounter with the controversy

14:55

face forward, would have been when I got called by Hal,

15:01

I think Hal was the first one to call me

15:07

to say could I come over, they were gonna have

15:09

a day long kind of consultation,

15:12

conversation, dialogue about the use of

15:18

Sophia wisdom in worship by the eastern PA.

15:23

And, Chuck Eragin, I think helped arrange that

15:29

as a way of what they hoped was going to

15:33

head off a major explosion at Annual Conference.

15:36

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I'm sorry, and who was Chuck, who was that again?

15:41

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He was at that point general secretary

15:43

of archives and history, but a major

15:46

clergy leader in that conference.

15:51

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Okay.

15:54

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But, he worked at Drew, the center for our

15:55

denomination, the center for our archives

15:58

was here at Drew.

16:01

So, he was here but he had leadership in that conference.

16:02

And, I think he helped set that up, or at least

16:05

worked with other leaders in eastern PA to say,

16:11

"Okay, let's study this."

16:13

And, I was invited.

16:16

They had wanted Katherine Keller to come

16:18

and she declined.

16:21

Would I come and talk about the use of

16:23

Sophia wisdom in worship for United Methodist to this.

16:27

And, I said, "Well, first of all just to let you know

16:33

"I have not used those prayers.

16:38

"I'm aware of them but if you want someone

16:41

"who's used them in local congregations I'm not that.

16:45

"I could, certainly, come and address it from

16:48

"the perspective of given what

16:54

"John Wesley used as guiding principles

16:57

"for how worship should be crafted, evaluated,

17:00

"I could do a general principle piece

17:05

"to see how that specific local tradition

17:08

"would match with what

17:12

"our sort of rule setter,

17:15

"in terms of what was and wasn't good worship would say."

17:21

So, I said I would be willing to do that.

17:25

And, as I remember Hal said, "Don't."

17:28

I said, "How many are we talking about?"

17:34

He said, "Maybe 40."

17:35

So anyway, I prepared a variety of things

17:38

that had to do with is it biblical?

17:41

Yes.

17:44

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Mm-hmm.

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Is it scripture, does it honor

17:45

the experience of women in terms of God

17:50

and saw themselves as being created in God's image?

17:57

Absolutely, you know.

18:02

He paid to have women's sermon's published

18:04

like this I've done.

18:08

And, he got charged with heresy for allowing

18:09

laypeople to preach.

18:12

So anyway, I'd gone through this thing.

18:13

In general, there is a very strong argument

18:16

that could be made it's biblical.

18:19

It was what I thought was a fairly

18:25

a good piece of scholarship but it would not be exciting.

18:32

But, the point wasn't to excite anybody

18:38

it was to say if you looked at what Wesley would have said

18:41

this stuff really measures very well.

18:45

So, without specific, I didn't wanna go fight over

18:49

different minds in a prayer.

18:53

But then, two things happened.

18:58

We went to war, Desert Storm broke out.

19:03

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Oh.

19:06

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And, someone in the Good News decided,

19:08

coalition which was of course national

19:14

and hierarchy all linked,

19:16

decided this was the opportunity to trigger it all

19:18

to put it all together.

19:21

And, the next call I got was that there

19:23

might be as many as 400 people.

19:25

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Oh, my goodness.

19:30

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Because pastors were hiring buses to bring

19:32

their folk in.

19:35

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Because Good News had advertised this

19:38

or sent out the word?

19:40

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I think in the turn around time between

19:42

when I was invited when I was told by Hal

19:45

it was like 40 it was not going to be,

19:47

people who already felt what they felt

19:51

probably weren't going to come.

19:53

It was going to be a civilized conversation between

19:55

folks at Asbury, Good News folk, and whoever

19:59

would stand up for this liturgy.

20:03

But then, it just exploded.

20:06

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Wow.

20:08

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Linked to Desert Storm and the thing that

20:09

they were told, and that's why I think it had to be

20:12

to generate that kind of defence in probably

20:16

10 days or less was that the enemy we were fighting

20:21

across the world we had to fight in our

20:27

own pulpits and our own seminaries,

20:30

infidels kind of thing.

20:32

So, and he said,

20:37

"They are coming decorated with yellow ribbons."

20:42

So, I thought about touching for the whole

20:50

nature of what we were going to be about.

20:53

But then,--

20:56

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I'm sorry,

could you clarify why yellow ribbons?

20:58

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Well, that's what you wore if you were

21:01

a patriot, you remember?

21:03

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I guess I'd forgotten it.

21:06

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There were yellow

ribbons everywhere.

21:07

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Okay that's right, yep.

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When we went to war there in Desert Storm.

21:09

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Right, yep, I'd forgotten that, you're right, yep.

21:13

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Okay, so we thought about that and I thought,

21:17

"Okay, this means every word has to be

21:20

"very carefully done because my experience is

21:22

"when people are at that level there would be

21:25

"a lot of recording going on

21:28

"and not hearing, but a lot of high drama."

21:33

So, I rethought it and

21:37

this is what I decided to do.

21:43

One of my long time ago ancestors was Daniel Webster

21:46

and he used to give speeches

21:52

about abolition that upset people.

21:57

And, he would do three things before he gave

22:01

a speech, before he was gonna talk to people.

22:04

'Cause I'm thinking I'm talking to a couple

22:07

hundred people that are wearing the yellow ribbons,

22:09

I better think about this.

22:11

So, here's what he would do.

22:14

He would when he got up to give a talk

22:15

about abolition federally he would,

22:18

first thing he would do is open a Bible,

22:21

and lay it down and say "this is for those of you

22:23

"who believe and honor the word of God."

22:26

And then, he'd put down a copy of The Constitution

22:31

and say, "and this is for those of you who

22:36

"honor the laws of this land."

22:38

And then, the last thing he would do is to unsheathe

22:41

a very big Bowie knife and say, "And this is

22:45

"for those of you who neither honor God nor country."

22:49

And then, he'd give his speech and upset people.

22:56

So, and right, that's what I did.

23:01

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Did you, oh my goodness?

23:04

(laughs)

23:05

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Yeah, I said, "This is the Bible and give you a little

23:07

"story about my ancestor and when he talked to people."

23:10

And, I mean, I think it was close to 500 people.

23:13

It was packed, there were cameras, videos,

23:17

a sea of yellow ribbons.

23:21

So, I said, "I'm gonna tell you the story.

23:24

"I thought my ancestor had some good ideas

23:28

"about trying to get heard when people were

23:31

"maybe not wanting to listen."

23:34

So, I put the Bible down and then I put down

23:36

a copy of the Bill of Rights tied in a yellow ribbon

23:41

and remind people "this is what we were fighting for."

23:44

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Wow.

23:47

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And, freedom of religion is one of those things.

23:48

And then, I reminded them,

23:52

I didn't put the knife down.

23:57

I told them about the knife, but I put down

23:59

the Book of Discipline.

24:01

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Oh.

-

And then I gave what I thought was a pretty

24:07

standard argument about scripture and women's experience

24:12

based on Wesleyan.

24:17

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Amazing.

24:20

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It didn't make either side happy

24:22

because I wasn't feminist enough.

24:27

But, I had agreed to do what I thought was

24:33

an important argument if you're dealing with

24:36

United Methodists, say let's look at what two says

24:38

who we identify with as setting some guidelines.

24:41

Said, here is the text on guideline

24:47

and this is why this works, but anyway.

24:49

But, see it was not, and for the other side

24:53

I pissed off really.

24:56

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The Good News side?

25:00

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Yeah, they didn't like the yellow ribbon thing at all

25:01

and the Bill of Rights.

25:05

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Did they write about this in their magazine?

25:08

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I don't think so.

25:11

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Yeah, 'cause I haven't seen that.

25:13

I'll look, but I don't think I've seen it.

25:15

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I just think it, like I said, I was just one

25:17

of about five people.

25:21

But, when I came back to Drew what I knew was

25:25

that this was

25:29

deep, this struggle and it was volatile.

25:34

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Yes.

25:38

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And so, when we invited

25:40

Sue and Katy to give a now Morton lecture

25:45

I was in charge of the chapel.

25:49

I said to Katherine, and the interesting thing was

25:53

for Katherine Keller this was the reason

25:58

she became a United Methodist.

26:01

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What was the reason?

26:04

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The Sophia controversy, she wasn't.

26:06

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Really.

26:09

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She thought we;d finally started

26:11

doing something interesting.

26:13

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Oh, my goodness.

26:14

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And she said, "Good, Roman Catholics have been

26:16

"doing this for years.

26:18

"There's nothing very exciting here.

26:18

"This is old feminism, this is no big deal."

26:20

And then, whoomp, and it got interesting.

26:23

And, I know this because she joined my husband's church

26:28

and was confirmed as a United Methodist

26:31

so she could get into the fight.

26:33

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Wow, that's an amazing story.

26:35

-

So, at any rate--

26:40

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Heather, can I interrupt just for one second?

26:43

I apologize, I'm trying to get a sense of the,

26:44

I didn't hear this story from Hal and Susan

26:47

about this meeting.

26:50

Was this, I assume, after Wisdom's Feast was published?

26:52

I mean, was sort of prompted them to hold that meeting?

26:55

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Yes, because now timing of this

26:59

it would have been before Re-Imagining.

27:03

So, some versions of this were circling,

27:06

but they were also using them in Bible studies,

27:09

but don't forget she had just been given

27:13

a high steeple church.

27:17

-

Right, yes.

27:18

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So, lots of stuff going on.

27:21

Like I said, I don't imagine on their screen

27:23

given the level of struggle they were dealing with,

27:26

maybe it didn't even register.

27:30

I don't know.

27:31

For me, going and seeing the difference between

27:35

having a handful of people and having the church full

27:37

with yellow ribbons and buses but there were

27:43

a lot video.

27:46

I mean, people took videos.

27:47

-

Wow.

27:49

-

So, my understanding was

27:51

I was going to be putting the service together

27:55

for our communion service on Thursday.

28:01

The lecturer preaches and then usually

28:04

I mean does a lecture and then does a preach.

28:09

Because of what I had seen and because

28:12

I know something about church,

28:16

I didn't come out of West Virginia not knowing

28:19

about church after pastoring there for eight years

28:21

I basically said I am going to select the most

28:25

biblical of all the services, the most biblical.

28:30

And, no students will assist me.

28:36

I will do the service with Susan by myself.

28:41

-

So, the student wouldn't be put at risk, was that it?

28:45

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Yeah.

28:48

-

Yep, yes.

-

And, again, I would say that it was seen as,

28:51

I know Katherine said, "Why are you being so cautious?"

28:56

And I said, "Katherine, I just saw something

29:00

"that I'm taking seriously."

29:04

-

Yes.

29:06

-

And sanctuary is not the word for seminaries.

29:07

We think it is, but it isn't.

29:14

Depends on who's looking.

29:16

-

Right.

-

So, I made all those so it's the most biblical text

29:18

and I presided and I made sure students

29:23

didn't do reading, there was nothing that they could

29:28

be critiqued for, but

29:30

the good thing was I, of course,

29:37

had everything written out, service, every piece of it.

29:40

And, used the wonderful liturgy that is

29:44

very biblical, we used a hymn by a typical priest.

29:47

And, then Susan preached.

29:53

Now, what happened was I

29:58

didn't know and I couldn't have guessed

30:04

and they why you might read his new

30:07

book on it, Tom was looking

30:10

for the occurrence for the occasion to

30:15

have the text that he always likes these little vignettes

30:21

of how seminaries have really betrayed the true faith.

30:27

And, me being his seminary he had love lost

30:31

for viewing us that way.

30:35

So, he came to chapel that day

30:37

and left before communion, sure I watched him leave.

30:42

And then, about two weeks later he gave me a copy

30:49

of what he was going to write, was going to

30:54

send to Christianity Today.

30:57

When I read it and I asked

31:02

we went up and had lunch 'cause he's fairly famous

31:07

and I'm up for being considered for tenure.

31:12

And I said I needed to ask him if he knew his essay,

31:18

long before he sent it in had been photocopied

31:23

and had been mailed to all the bishops

31:29

and general agency boards.

31:35

That heresy, this bishop,

31:40

this goddess Worship service was gonna happen at Drew,

31:44

or had happened at Drew and I said to him,

31:50

"Do you know that this is being anonymously mailed?"

31:53

I mean, every bishop got it and every board.

31:57

And, I began getting the calls because the way

32:00

it was written it was not clear who

32:03

the liturgist presider preacher was.

32:07

So, I'm getting the calls.

32:10

It's not about me, I'm just the in between

32:12

so I crafted the service.

32:15

I mean, it's all, they're trying to get to them.

32:16

And I said, didn't he care that this

32:20

was being used and I had to say, "Tom, I was there.

32:25

"I did that service.

32:31

"We weren't in the same service.

32:34

"What you wrote is not true."

32:35

And, I said I don't you care that this is being used

32:39

to harm a bishop of our church?

32:44

And he said, "She is not worthy."

32:48

(gasps)

32:50

-

Wow.

-

And I said, "Okay, I understand what you just said."

32:53

He said, "I know what they say when we're ordained.

32:56

"You are worthy," that was the language.

32:58

So, I said, "I have no idea what it is I'm going

33:01

"to be able to do, but I will do everything

33:06

"in my power to stop this from being believed.

33:09

"It's not true."

33:15

And I said, "I know bishops who've received this.

33:17

"So, I am going to send them the service so they know."

33:21

I picked five bishops sent them the service,

33:27

sent in the account.

33:30

I did not have, those days we weren't recording the sermon,

33:31

wish we had but couldn't prove what he had said

33:37

was still a lie.

33:40

And, the other thing I said, "Tom," I said,

33:42

"I've been in charge of this chapel for three years.

33:44

"It's my job to know who comes."

33:47

I said, "The other thing I'm going to send

33:49

"the bishops is your attendance record.

33:50

"You have been in this chapel once this year,

33:53

"twice the year before, and once the year before that.

33:59

"And, you write as if you are a faithful

34:03

"worshiping member of this community."

34:05

So, I said, "I'm going to send your attendance records."

34:08

Well, he just flipped out and

34:11

I'm not going to bend your arm, it was just--

34:17

-

Wow, and you weren't tenured, wow.

34:19

-

No, I wasn't tenured.

34:21

But I said, "What you wrote isn't true."

34:24

So, I tried doing that and I got five bishops

34:28

and all that eventually and we had a hearing

34:32

here a Drew where people who were here said this.

34:37

Well, then in the midst I get

34:42

then a lawsuit against me

34:48

from a eastern PA clergy

34:52

who's trying to make his name by being the one

34:58

who takes down the

35:01

heretical woman bishop.

35:06

And I'm just sort of in the way,

35:09

it's not about me at all but the irritating thing is

35:11

fortunately, I'm pretty compulsive about documents.

35:14

But, he took a very long time

35:20

and the other piece was when I got the legal documents I did

35:25

have to get a lawyer.

35:29

The Board of Trustees got letters

35:35

saying that I shouldn't be tenured.

35:39

And, that's where my son's,

35:41

he read one of those letters.

35:47

That's where his, he attempted then suicide

35:51

because he thought, he was just so unhappy,

35:55

been moved too many times as United Methodist.

35:59

And, when you're about a teenager and you don't

36:03

have friends in the new school anyway.

36:06

But, the other piece that finally worked itself out

36:10

I decided not to file a grievance against Tom Oden

36:15

through the university.

36:20

I decided to fight it through the church.

36:21

And, Tom Kean who had been governor of New Jersey

36:27

was our president.

36:30

-

Oh, okay.

And, I told the dean who was trying to get

36:33

Tom and I to reconcile, and I said, "You know what

36:38

"he's lying, and he knows he's lying."

36:41

"And, I'm like, "You don't reconcile when someone

36:44

"won't admit that they're not right

36:49

"with God and their community."

36:56

So at any rate I said, "but, I'm not going to file

37:03

"a grievance there I'm just gonna fight

37:05

"it out through the church."

37:06

And, I did get summoned to my own conference

37:07

where there were, it was just a repeat of eastern PA.

37:11

There were, I don't know 3, 400 pastors

37:17

who brought their people in to

37:22

basically denounce what that was about.

37:28

But again, my bishop did it to try to head

37:32

off a grievance being filed against me.

37:35

So, it was a pretty nasty morning, but I survived.

37:39

And, there's always very funny,

37:44

very weird things in the midst of all this.

37:50

So, the Re-Imagining piece I kept seeing

37:52

when it's falling by the wayside.

37:56

And again, my understanding was the targeting

37:58

of this was not for heretical women

38:02

but for women who had major leadership roles

38:04

in the church, both clergy and lay.

38:08

It was not about heretical women, though

38:10

that is always a good market.

38:12

You raise good money on heretical women,

38:15

particularly if communism isn't available

38:17

to fight with.

38:20

But, it was to, in fact, to pull in

38:23

the power of women's leadership.

38:28

Because in many ways the most radical feminists

38:32

have gone from the church long ago.

38:34

So, this for the women that were exercising authority.

38:39

Not necessarily radical feminists at all.

38:47

-

Heather, if you don't mind I just wanted

38:52

to clear up a couple things.

38:53

Was the legal charge against you slander,

38:55

is that what they were claiming?

38:57

-

Yes.

38:59

-

And, what happened with those charges?

39:00

-

Ah, well I decided

39:03

I need a lawyer and so I checked with the Women

39:07

provide one full guidance over the years.

39:13

They gave me the name of a lawyer

39:16

that had worked with them.

39:17

I contacted him, said, "It looks like

39:21

"I will need legal defense."

39:24

He said, "Well first, send me everything you have."

39:28

So, I sent him the piles of documents

39:31

and arguments and what happened, what didn't happen

39:34

and here's service and yada, yada, yada.

39:38

He said, "Let me look at this.

39:42

"And then, call me in two weeks."

39:44

And so, I called him and he said,

39:46

"First, you have to answer a question for me

39:53

"before we have any other conversation."

39:57

I said, "Okay," and I said, "What is it?"

39:59

And he said, "Will legally representing you

40:01

"in any way endanger my immortal soul?"

40:05

I said, "How in the hell would I know?"

40:10

(laughs)

40:13

And he just laughed and said, "Oh good, an honest woman."

40:16

(laughs)

40:18

So, in fact, he offered because we were so broke

40:24

he offered, asked me to bring Daniel with me

40:28

when I went to see him for the first time

40:34

and explained to Daniel, 'cause he knew--

40:36

-

This was your son?

40:40

-

Yes, and explained to him how he was going

40:42

to defend me.

40:47

-

Wow.

-

So I wouldn't lose my job.

40:49

-

Wow.

40:50

-

And he said, "This session's for free."

40:52

So,

40:59

-

What a good man.

-

What he did legally was what you do is

41:02

you basically put all the arguments together

41:05

saying this is what I'm going to present

41:07

in court against you and you have a frivolous

41:08

lawsuit for the following reasons.

41:12

And, we are going to counter-sue

41:15

and take you to court.

41:17

It's just like you say here are all the arguments,

41:22

this is what the judge should say,

41:25

this is harassment and award damages

41:27

to the person that you are trying to sue.

41:30

That's where it went away.

41:33

I did have a big bill.

41:36

And, I only found out years late, I mean probably

41:40

a year later

41:46

the president invited me to lunch.

41:52

Well, he doesn't do that.

41:54

I mean, that was not a normal practice.

41:56

So, I go to lunch, I'm thinking, "What is this about?"

41:58

Things are still sort of swirling around

42:03

as to whether or not I'm going to be sued

42:06

or not sued, what's this about?

42:11

And he doesn't mention it through the whole dinner.

42:13

And then, at the very end,

42:16

oh fiddle, I'm just losing the guy's name.

42:19

He was just a nasty radio announcer.

42:22

-

Rush Limbaugh?

42:26

-

Yeah, thank you.

42:27

What I learned at the very end why he took me

42:30

to lunch was it was to thank me for not

42:33

putting the grievance through the university

42:36

because he had already been notified

42:38

that Rush Limbaugh was ready to do a piece

42:41

about how this liberal

42:45

far-left university

42:52

was harassing this faithful evangelical senior professor.

42:57

-

Really?

43:03

-

Mm-hmm.

-

Wow.

43:05

So, Rush, he couldn't do that then

43:06

because you hadn't done it through the university.

43:08

-

Exactly, because I chose not to go through the university.

43:11

He said to thank you for not putting us through that.

43:14

-

And, the grievance that you filed, I'm sorry.

43:18

-

I didn't know this, but I met with years later,

43:24

took me four or five years to learn

43:27

that he paid, anonymously, probably half

43:29

of my legal bill.

43:34

-

The president of Drew did.

43:36

-

Yeah.

43:38

-

Wow.

-

With no, found out about it long after he left.

43:40

-

Oh, that's wonderful.

43:43

-

Yeah, it was.

43:46

-

Yeah.

And, just to clarify, tie up that end

43:50

what happened with the grievance?

43:52

-

The grievance against Susan Morrison went

43:56

all the way up through the jurisdiction.

43:58

It was heard and then where I have a whole

44:01

bunch of papers it says in the paragraph

44:04

that it was dismissed because when they looked at it

44:07

there were no supporting witnesses

44:12

for what Tom had written.

44:17

So, when you read his book, the new one,

44:22

he's still trying to

44:25

justify the account.

44:30

-

Wow, okay, yeah.

44:36

That's amazing, thank you.

44:40

-

Yeah, pretty weird.

44:43

-

Yeah, yeah.

44:44

And, I just can't resist asking, I mean,

44:47

what a terrible thing for you to go through

44:49

you're not tenured.

44:52

I assume that you were worried that you

44:55

weren't going to be tenured at this point.

44:57

-

I thought it might be a possibility.

45:01

Again, because if you charge someone with

45:06

not only unorthodox but unauthorized

45:16

use of sacraments and you're hiring them to teach worship.

45:23

-

Yes.

45:29

-

And, I have the same sort of very strange

45:30

response after the presentation I did at Re-Imagining.

45:34

Then, when I did do the presentation

45:38

and there was supposed to be no photographs

45:41

and somebody took a picture, someone posing

45:45

as a support woman took a picture of

45:49

Lynny Russel and I and it ends up on

45:53

the cover fold in the centerfold

45:56

of Presbyterian Layman.

45:59

-

Really?

46:01

-

And, of course, at that point I was tenured

46:04

and in fact at that point I had just been asked to

46:06

come into the associate dean's office.

46:13

But, two things happened when that came out.

46:15

I'd been invited to preach at Ocean Grove,

46:17

which is a big deal.

46:20

And, I got a letter based on what they had read

46:23

from the Good News and the Presbyterian Layman

46:26

telling me that they were not going to invite me anymore.

46:31

-

Really?

46:37

-

I had learned a little bit more

46:43

so I went to the Bishop and the cabinet

46:45

here in New Jersey and said, "Here's the speech

46:48

"I gave at Re-Imagining.

46:52

"Please examine it if you have questions.

46:55

"We believe in a free pulpit.

47:01

"I believe I have done nothing to violate

47:06

"any of the principals of what leading

47:08

"preaching worship or preaching Gospel is.

47:10

"I am going to send through you

47:15

"to the board of Ocean Grove that

47:19

"if they confirm that I am debarred from the pulpit

47:24

"based on this then I will file a grievance

47:29

"against the board for damage to my ministry.

47:33

"If, however, they put on me on the longest line

47:39

"of possible people to invite,

47:42

"they can invite me long after I'm dead, then I won't.

47:47

"'Cause I have no interest in fighting

47:51

"to go down and preach there.

47:53

"But, what I will fight about is barring a pulpit

47:55

"before I even have a chance to open my mouth."

47:58

-

Yes, and did they do that?

48:01

-

Yes.

48:04

-

They put you on the long wait list?

48:05

-

Yes, I suddenly, said well they would

48:07

get back to me about when they could so.

48:10

So, it just even, past even community college

48:12

it hadn't quite calmed yet.

48:18

It still didn't come and update.

48:20

-

No.

48:22

-

But certainly, some of it is moved on to

48:23

other targets and others battles.

48:24

And again, I think I was a very

48:27

incidental figure in this because

48:32

I think the major targets were

48:35

the bishop and women who were exploring

48:41

far more radical forms of feminist worship

48:45

than I was.

48:50

-

And, what do you think, what is it about

48:54

feminist worship that makes it such a target?

48:57

Heather?

49:11

-

That's a huge question, yes I'm still here.

49:12

-

Oh sorry, that was a huge question, sorry 'bout that.

49:13

(laughs)

49:15

-

I think it's very complicated now in that

49:19

right now I would say if we go out in the hallway here

49:23

our younger women students they would say,

49:26

"That's old stuff, we don't need to take classes

49:31

"in feminist liturgy, that's all been done.

49:34

"I mean that's our mother's generation.

49:39

"That's been taken care of."

49:41

-

And how 'bout the use of inclusive language?

49:46

-

Because I believe the secular use of it

49:50

is so pronounced people

49:53

are willing not to fight about it in church.

49:59

Church is going to be allowed.

50:02

There's far more silence about that language.

50:04

And, the counter movement back, in fact,

50:08

one of our graduates Carol Cookmore wrote

50:11

her dissertation on United Methodist the sign up thing.

50:15

The rise in inclusive language and then it's demise.

50:20

Because of the perceived numbers of women in church

50:26

growing up in leadership positions

50:31

it then becomes kind of passe, we don't need to do this.

50:35

We need to encourage men to participate.

50:40

So, they see the struggle as having quote been won

50:44

and that then makes it even more ferocious

50:50

in the back room.

50:54

-

Mm-hmm.

Well, I'm curious you talked about this

50:57

as seminary students.

50:59

After they've been in the pastorate a few years?

51:01

-

Then, they come back and say, "Can we talk

51:04

"about feminist principles?"

51:05

-

Uh-huh, yeah.

51:07

-

Anc, of course, Drew that's a great strength.

51:09

That's some of what we are known for

51:12

and our students chafe under this imposition

51:16

of having to use inclusive, hospitable language

51:21

about both God and the human community.

51:27

And, they see that as being forced and there are

51:29

issues about race and ethnicity--

51:32

-

Issues about race and I missed the next word.

51:38

-

And ethnicity--

51:41

-

Ethnicity, yes, uh-huh yes.

-

Basically, give it basically attempt to silence,

51:45

which is I'm teaching a class on creative writing

51:49

in the women's prison, maximum security this Spring.

51:56

Half Drew student and the half Drew students

52:00

are, in fact, behind bars.

52:03

-

Wow.

-

And the women in prison do not wanna have

52:06

anything to do with feminist language, however, about God.

52:09

We have this wonderful textbook called Ain't I a Woman

52:16

and using those prayers and poems and what they write

52:18

the surfacing of women's experience of the holy

52:24

and themselves as holy is very strong.

52:28

But, they do not, God is Father, that's the way it is.

52:31

And so, the issues of, again,

52:36

what is seen as potentially white women

52:42

who have power saying, "You cannot use this language,"

52:47

is not particularly helpful.

52:53

-

Um-hmm, um-hmm.

52:56

-

So, I usually work at say this, and then add

52:59

you say, "Almighty Father, king of kings"

53:03

and then put something like kind Creator,

53:08

or like a mother bird feeds her young.

53:12

So, it's just trying to allow some of their own

53:17

owning of the language of their experience

53:22

to come back into God language.

53:25

But, it's pretty...

53:28

It's not something that if looked at their prayers

53:35

you could see from the outset that they were even aware of.

53:38

-

Oh, interesting.

53:43

I wanted to, if you don't mind, move onto the

53:45

"A time of hope, a time of threat", would that

53:48

be appropriate now?

53:50

Except, I just wanna be sure I thought you might

53:51

have said there were two things that happened

53:53

as a result of the '96 Re-Imagining.

53:55

Did you talk about both things, or did I misunderstand?

53:57

-

Oh, the one

54:02

that first broke and the resistance was mounting.

54:07

This was following in '94 when the

54:13

"time of hope, time of threat" was done

54:18

was because seminaries and key women

54:21

were being threatened and harassed

54:25

and some of the Roman Catholics lost their jobs.

54:29

So, that's when that kind of gathering of Jean Underpower's

54:35

really gathered everybody together in her apartment.

54:41

And, I was invited to come along because

54:44

of the time of the Drew service.

54:48

I mean, people know that I was having that struggle

54:50

which was, obviously, about the same thing.

54:54

So that's when we needed to say something

54:57

and there were

55:01

resolutions denouncing Drew and denouncing

55:05

different women who had leadership positions

55:11

all through the United States.

55:12

So, that was done as a way of providing

55:17

an alternative teaching piece.

55:21

And, it was done as a newscast because it was making news.

55:26

And, then again, a professor here at Drew

55:32

did a great deal of what we needed to get it

55:36

out to annual conferences.

55:38

-

Heather, I just have to say after, given what you were

55:41

going through at the time it seems like

55:44

an act of bravery to then do that.

55:46

There were nine of you who did that.

55:49

Can I ask what your decision making process was there?

55:51

-

It was,

55:58

Well, I'll tell you what just came in mind when you asked.

56:02

Do you remember that terrible shooting in Canada

56:05

of a young man comes in and basically shoots,

56:13

I think it's maybe 11 women.

56:19

-

Yes.

-

Okay.

56:22

-

Yes.

-

Right and

56:24

-

Uhm-hmm.

-

One of the women is killed shouting

56:29

"I'm not a feminist."

56:34

-

Oh gosh.

56:36

-

And, I cannot remember

56:38

who said it, but whoever said it

56:45

it had to have been out of the circle

56:48

of women that I knew and it could had been through.

56:51

Anyway, I have no idea who.

56:54

If you're gonna get shot you might as well

56:57

shout who you are.

56:59

You might as well say, "yeah"

57:04

'cause they're gonna shoot anyway.

57:08

-

Yes, wow.

57:09

-

And, it was stories, plenty, plenty of stories

57:14

and we told all the strange, funny, weird,

57:22

sad things that were going on and in the apartment.

57:26

I can't remember someone's name now,

57:36

the Women's Division just being harassed

57:39

and harassed and harassed with calls for somebody.

57:42

The funniest one I remember from that somebody standing,

57:44

somebody calling and saying, "I wanna talk to somebody.

57:49

"They gotta stop this, they gotta stop this obsession.

57:52

Saying, "What is it, what is it they have to stop.

57:56

"What is the problem, why are you so upset?"

57:57

And, the punchline was, "Tell them to stop

58:02

"calling God Sophie."

58:05

-

Oh, my goodness.

58:07

(laughs)

58:09

-

And, of course, some of this is because

58:12

women's names, and nobody gets upset about

58:14

men who name their kids Logos.

58:21

-

Yes, yes.

58:23

-

So, some of it was being able, but it was

58:25

very well orchestrated.

58:28

The chief counsel whose name is on

58:30

the documents I got, was the lawyer for Good News.

58:35

So, I know it was with I.O.D. organized.

58:40

-

Wow.

58:45

To be clear which was it the lawsuit against you?

58:47

-

Yes, the lawsuit, right.

58:51

-

Yes, um-hmm, got it.

-

Because it was so,

58:53

it was such good business if you don't,

58:58

if communism seems to have collapsed

59:00

who can the enemy be?

59:05

Well, look heretical women.

59:06

-

Um-hmm, um-hmm.

59:10

-

And, now it's gay people.

59:12

-

Yes.

59:18

-

You've got to have the enemy to be able

59:18

to mobilize an identity against.

59:20

So, or Muslims, I think our political landscape's

59:25

playing all of this out through time.

59:30

And, it wasn't in some ways personal.

59:34

I think they were just looking for the right

59:39

means who could be used to generate

59:44

a convincing threat to the church.

59:49

So, again, in in that room, that house

59:55

was to hear the piece and then to say

59:57

"all right, this is that this one moment

1:00:00

"we can make moves because the other thing

1:00:03

"that is very clear on this once you make

1:00:05

"the accusation it really doesn't matter

1:00:08

"what the truth is."

1:00:10

And, that's how the machinery works.

1:00:13

So, it was very smart to make a news broadcast.

1:00:18

-

I'm curious, what memories do you have of

1:00:25

writing, I've read a description from

1:00:27

Burl Ward Ingram about the multiple authorship,

1:00:29

I mean the editing and everything,

1:00:33

but what are your memories about writing that document

1:00:35

and about the press conference that you held?

1:00:36

-

Oh, I just was amazed

1:00:40

by the strength and the creativity in the room

1:00:45

because it certainly wasn't, I would say

1:00:51

it wasn't easy, I mean it was hard work.

1:00:55

It was hard work, I mean, what to say, what not to say.

1:00:57

And, who to say it and how would the analysis

1:01:01

of this play out.

1:01:07

What is causing the fervor?

1:01:09

Is it a matter of not knowing?

1:01:11

How do you answer an argument when it isn't

1:01:14

really a rational argument at all?

1:01:16

And, the other piece that I don't think,

1:01:20

it might show up.

1:01:22

I would say my major contribution

1:01:24

was I brought a wonderful

1:01:28

eye of God, huge eye of God, that a woman

1:01:33

had made for a conference.

1:01:37

She was a feminist.

1:01:41

And we were, it was Lake Junalaska and how to do an image

1:01:43

of God that does not end up

1:01:49

by binary or a dual visibility.

1:01:54

And so she made this fabulous, I'm mean,

1:01:57

it's a big eye of God.

1:01:58

And, Bishop Morrison processed carrying this.

1:02:00

And, I brought it into the news conference.

1:02:05

And, I think if you look at it it's in the back.

1:02:09

And, that sense of the seeing God,

1:02:13

the God who sees comes straight out of Genesis.

1:02:18

And, here God was a really important

1:02:21

trust that we had, there is the God who sees.

1:02:30

-

Yes.

1:02:33

What was the response?

1:02:35

I mean, you got an amazing response

1:02:36

in terms of signatures, 800 at first

1:02:38

and then like 1200 later.

1:02:40

What was the response to the press conference?

1:02:42

-

Initially, of course, it was fairly, I mean it was,

1:02:49

I mean there weren't lots of people there.

1:02:53

There were some questions but that wasn't the piece.

1:02:55

It was that it was going to circulate

1:02:58

in places we couldn't get to.

1:03:03

And, it broke the silence.

1:03:07

Like, I think it was important to break through

1:03:13

the paralysis of all the pain that people were in.

1:03:15

-

Yeah, did it actually appear on newscasts?

1:03:18

-

It was in the New York area, but that is, again, why

1:03:22

here at Drew it's very important that we

1:03:29

ship out video tapes to other conferences

1:03:32

that had resolutions denouncing this

1:03:35

feminist goddess stuff

1:03:42

without any information just resolutions.

1:03:47

And, so it was very helpful the teaching piece,

1:03:52

I think, for conferences that chose to use it.

1:03:57

-

I'm curious, and it's been a long time, I know,

1:04:01

but I know the bishops, the United Methodist bishops

1:04:04

finally wrote a study on Sophia.

1:04:06

-

Right.

1:04:09

-

And, I wonder if you had any reactions to that.

1:04:10

-

Oh, they took the safe ground.

1:04:14

They said it's biblical, but you cannot

1:04:16

allow it to pass into personification

1:04:21

of a goddess.

1:04:27

And so they basically, and I basically thought,

1:04:30

"Okay, I wasn't off with making the argument

1:04:35

"years earlier that it is that sense of

1:04:40

"the attribute of God.

1:04:44

"It is not a separate identity."

1:04:46

It's where they came at it.

1:04:50

But I think by the time they got to that work

1:04:52

nobody was paying attention.

1:04:57

-

Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

1:04:58

-

The storm had moved on.

1:05:02

-

Mm-hmm.

And, could you remind me

1:05:06

all the resolutions they went to,

1:05:11

they would have gone to annual conferences.

1:05:15

What was the final resolution?

1:05:19

Did it go to general conference?

1:05:22

-

There were eventually,

1:05:24

I think, well I can remember

1:05:28

preaching at Susan Morrison's conference

1:05:31

gosh maybe five years later.

1:05:38

And, there was still resolutions that she

1:05:42

had to preside over, denounce.

1:05:45

I mean, I think there were more than 12

1:05:49

at that one conference.

1:05:53

-

Wow, yeah.

-

And, I remember we had continuous union and it probably

1:05:55

wasn't a good idea to invite me to preach.

1:05:59

But, I said to her, "Why are you still here?"

1:06:02

'Cause I watched her preside through all this

1:06:08

denouncing her, denouncing women.

1:06:10

And she said, "So, we can sit

1:06:13

"and have a cup of coffee and say, why are we still here."

1:06:17

(laughs)

1:06:21

And, I took that as an answer for why women

1:06:23

who are feminists, which I am, are still in the church.

1:06:27

-

Could you say a little bit more about that, Heather,

1:06:32

'cause I think that's an important piece.

1:06:34

Why are you still in the church?

1:06:36

-

Because, it's intentions are correct.

1:06:41

And, as I hear Jesus

1:06:49

and experience the spirit this is the work

1:06:55

we're supposed to be about.

1:07:00

So, where else would we go to do the work?

1:07:04

-

And, how would you describe the work?

1:07:09

-

Well, I would just be very particular right now,

1:07:15

obviously thinking about the class last night.

1:07:18

And, I'm sitting with this woman who

1:07:20

will be in prison for probably most of her life.

1:07:25

And, we are working on a poem, right,

1:07:32

a five line poem.

1:07:37

I'm just trying to think whether I can

1:07:48

recite it or whether that violates,

1:07:49

at any rate it's a poem that ends up

1:07:53

whether it's, just one poem,

1:07:56

"whether it's God love or agape love

1:07:59

"the important thing is to have loved."

1:08:02

And, that's pretty good.

1:08:08

-

Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

-

So, where else would I be?

1:08:11

-

Yeah, wow that's a great answer.

1:08:16

-

Yeah.

1:08:22

(laughs)

-

I did wanna ask a quick question

1:08:24

about you presented at the '96.

1:08:25

You talked about Hipplytus and you also had

1:08:29

a conversation with Letty Russell.

1:08:31

And, I'm just wondering if you had any particular

1:08:33

memories of that gathering or what it was like

1:08:36

to be at Re-Imagining when you finally got there.

1:08:38

-

I finally got there and was,

1:08:42

I guess even my sense was gratitude

1:08:45

that it had been more than a moment.

1:08:50

That there was some kind of incredible continuity.

1:08:54

And, that I could give my speeches.

1:09:01

Talking about, I came to Drew to study that prayer.

1:09:04

-

Yes.

1:09:10

-

About this type of milk and honey.

1:09:11

So, they were just weird.

1:09:14

(laughs)

So, here we are doing this and nothing but

1:09:18

fabulous sudden grasp on the wall

1:09:20

of women who's had mastectomies.

1:09:24

Do you remember?

1:09:28

-

I didn't remember that, no.

1:09:28

-

Oh, I did.

1:09:30

That's was the work on the wall so you have

1:09:32

women's bodies that are damaged

1:09:34

but definitely alive, just vibrant with life.

1:09:40

And so, that whole sense of holding

1:09:44

those conversations surrounded by bodies

1:09:49

that yeah, they'd been damaged but lived their lives.

1:09:53

And, the point of the artist was to say

1:09:57

"Look how beautiful these are."

1:09:59

-

Yes, yes.

1:10:01

-

And I thought

that was wonderful pedagogy.

1:10:04

-

Yes, and having studied it what was it like

1:10:08

to experience the milk and honey ritual?

1:10:12

I mean it wasn't exactly Hipplytus, but.

1:10:15

(laughs)

1:10:17

-

Right, right.

The theme that I am convinced about give us

1:10:22

a question is, was Hipplytus ever really

1:10:25

done as a liturgy, and yet here it's survived.

1:10:29

The last line still hooks me.

1:10:34

"This cup of milk and honey is given

1:10:37

"for the healing of the bitterness of the human heart

1:10:41

"by the sweetness of Christ's words."

1:10:46

-

Yeah.

1:10:48

-

So, we have to keep working to get it back on the table.

1:10:51

And, I also believe it's so deeply female

1:11:02

that that cup is the resistance.

1:11:07

-

Well, it reminds me of that story you told

1:11:14

about the lay preacher came to visit you

1:11:16

to save your soul.

1:11:19

He certainly thought it was female.

1:11:21

Yes, (mumbles).

1:11:24

Yes.

1:11:28

-

And, what was that,

I missed that Heather.

1:11:30

-

Well, it is so deeply yes that we're in

1:11:31

a period right now where we seem to be allergic

1:11:37

to those deep female symbols.

1:11:44

-

What are you thinking of when you say that?

1:11:49

-

The reactions of,

1:11:56

I'm just thinking poetically

1:12:00

I don't know who you're gonna vote for

1:12:03

or why you're gonna vote for,

1:12:05

but this notion of

1:12:07

we cannot have a woman in a White House.

1:12:13

What's that about? Why?

1:12:18

And, it's not rational, but it's pretty deep

1:12:21

and pretty wide, doesn't really matter who

1:12:25

it would be, I think.

1:12:29

So, that's the political piece that never disappears.

1:12:32

I wanna, as we come to a close, I want to also

1:12:36

share a wonderful quote that is not in our book

1:12:40

it's just comes oral tradition.

1:12:43

You know Morton who taught here?

1:12:45

-

Yes.

1:12:46

-

Was gone the year just literally the year

1:12:48

before I got here we have a hallway dedicated to her

1:12:52

thanks to Katherine Keller's wonderful art contributions.

1:12:56

And so, she as far as we know, is the first woman

1:13:01

who taught a class called Women in Religion

1:13:05

in 1967.

1:13:08

-

Wow.

-

In a seminary.

1:13:12

-

Wow.

-

And one of the things, like I said, I

1:13:14

think about and written about is what she

1:13:19

reportedly said once which is, "If you don't

1:13:23

"think God is a male word try saying Goddess

1:13:27

"out loud and see what comes out of the woodwork."

1:13:33

-

Wow, boy she knew what she was talking about.

1:13:36

(laughs)

1:13:39

Oh well, and I do wanna respect for your time,

1:13:43

I just had two quick questions to end with.

1:13:46

And one is in the end what do you think

1:13:49

is the greatest legacy of Re-Imagining?

1:13:51

-

That it claimed

1:13:58

a theological process

1:14:04

and owned the connection between of theology

1:14:11

that is case of Re-Imagining, I'm thinking now

1:14:17

of Marjorie Porchersmith's work,

1:14:20

which is we always do this work.

1:14:24

She's the soap line in the fields.

1:14:26

She said, "We always do this work

1:14:28

"with memory and imagination."

1:14:30

So, it was that, it was

1:14:34

and of course the politics that went into it

1:14:40

and the reactions that came out of it

1:14:43

just means we keep on the piece.

1:14:46

So, like she just received a major award

1:14:50

from again the North American Academy of Liturgy.

1:14:53

She's retired now.

1:14:58

And, she spoke at that time and she said

1:15:00

the thing that she believed again was that

1:15:04

being able to name it right, say it right,

1:15:09

tell the truth about women's experiences

1:15:12

would make a difference.

1:15:15

-

Wow, so true.

1:15:19

-

Yeah, the question is has it, does it, will it?

1:15:22

-

Yes, actually that is kind of my last question.

1:15:27

What do you think, what does Re-Imagining mean today?

1:15:30

And, I don't mean just the Re-Imagining conference,

1:15:34

but I mean what needs to be re-imagined today?

1:15:36

-

I would

1:15:46

Oikos, household, economics, ecumenical,

1:15:54

the poor, whether or not

1:16:04

we are capable of being a friend to each other

1:16:10

across our differences.

1:16:16

And the household, that literally the necessity

1:16:18

of identifying whether or not we are capable of

1:16:23

generating a sustaining life in household,

1:16:25

in whatever we call family as a culture.

1:16:29

I do not know the answer to that, but that's the work.

1:16:33

So oikos, all of it.

1:16:38

-

Yes, oh well thank you unless there's anything

1:16:40

else you wanna add, this has been wonderful, Heather.

1:16:44

-

You're a great listener.

1:16:48

-

Oh, well it's great to listen to you.

1:16:49

I'm gonna turn the recording off now.

1:16:52

-

Sure.

1:16:54

Elkins, Heather Murray

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Sallie Bingham Center for Women's History & Culture

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