Chinn, Nancy / Re-Imagining Collection / Duke Digital Repository

Interviewer

We are ready to go.

0:01

You were going to tell me about Wisdom Searches,

0:03

your wonderful book.

0:05

Tell me.

0:05

Nancy

First of all,

0:07

it came about because I was asked

0:09

to create a poster for a fundraiser

0:11

for Re-Imagining, for the first year anniversary.

0:16

And I gather,

0:20

I'm a gatherer and responder in my art forms

0:23

and I had this leaf in my studio that

0:28

which is very interesting, it was all curled up.

0:33

And I thought oh that's a good form to work with

0:36

and I started the first painting

0:42

and nine came out of it, the nine in the book

0:44

and it came one after the other,

0:48

just bang bang bang bang, in the middle of the night,

0:50

or at three in the afternoon or whatever

0:52

and then it was all done.

0:55

Interviewer

Wow.

0:57

I'm so glad you told that.

0:59

That is wonderful, so it came out of--

1:00

Nancy

Tell them, this team that I worked for

1:03

that publishes things, and they wrote that for

1:06

something for, I don't remember what, and I said

1:09

well I have these nine paintings

1:12

and I sent them to them

1:15

and then I told them I was interested in producing

1:17

them as meditation cards.

1:19

Would they have the ability to produce that

1:23

and they wrote back and commissioned the book.

1:26

Interviewer

Oh.

1:28

And then you wrote those wonderful poems

1:30

to go with the images.

1:32

Nancy

I did and Hariett,

1:33

my partner, wrote the text.

1:35

Interviewer

Yes, well I love how that was

1:36

and I know you always talk about how important

1:38

relationships are and that was certainly true with that

1:40

whole enterprise it seemed like.

1:42

Nancy

Yes, and the material actually came from

1:45

Elizabeth Johnson.

1:48

But I was reading her section, Holy Wisdom.

1:51

I'd read it and meditate on it and then I'd go paint.

1:54

Interviewer

Hm, well it obviously

1:59

was a great inspiration.

2:01

And it did start with Re-Imagining asking you to

2:02

Nancy

Yes.

2:05

make a poster for--

2:07

Nancy

Yeah.

2:08

Interviewer

Yeah.

2:08

Well, that was a wonderful product.

2:10

Actually, if we could just back up--

2:11

Nancy

(laughs) And I don't know

2:13

if any of those posters

2:14

are still around or not.

2:15

My daughter use to have one but it wasn't

2:16

printed with an archival ink.

2:18

Interviewer

Oh...

2:20

Nancy

And it does fade over time.

2:21

Interviewer

Okay, you know I will ask about that

2:22

at the next Re-Imagining meeting

2:25

'cause I would love to know if they are still around.

2:26

I know your paintings from The Gathering

2:30

are at United Theological Seminary

2:32

Nancy

Yes.

2:35

Interviewer

But I can find out about the posters.

2:36

Nancy

Uh huh.

2:37

Interviewer

Wonderful.

2:38

You know, you know could we just back up for a minute.

2:39

I'm glad you told that story, that was wonderful.

2:40

Could you, I just need some background information,

2:42

could you say your full name?

2:45

Nancy

Nancy Chinn.

2:47

Interviewer

Great.

2:49

-

And are you lay or clergy?

2:50

Nancy

Lay.

2:52

Interviewer

And what is your

2:53

denominational affiliation, if any?

2:54

Nancy

At the time of Re-Imagining, I was Episcopalian.

2:57

I had come from a Presbyterian background

3:01

and many years later, probably 10 years ago,

3:04

I joined the Catholic church, I went through catechetics,

3:09

and became Catholic.

3:13

So I could call myself Catholic but I do worship

3:16

in this community in a Episcopal church.

3:18

Interviewer

Oh okay, wonderful.

3:23

Nancy

So I would call myself Roman Episcopal.

3:26

(both laugh)

3:28

Interviewer

You're very ecumenical. (laughs)

3:29

Nancy

Well sort of yeah.

3:31

Interviewer

When and where were you born Nancy?

3:33

Nancy

Minneapolis, Minnesota. 1940.

3:36

Interviewer

Okay, and where did you go to school?

3:40

Nancy

I went to Louis and Clark in Portland for my BA

3:45

About, hm, let's see, 52, maybe 20 years later.

3:50

I went to San Francisco State and got a Masters in Art Ed

3:55

and that's when I began exploring the relationship

3:59

between art and spirituality.

4:02

And I did it specifically because of an anthropology class

4:05

which was called visual anthropology.

4:09

And I was fascinated with what artists did in

4:13

non-Christian communities to create the culture.

4:17

And I went back to my own local, very boring

4:23

visually boring church

4:26

and, which grouching about about something

4:29

and they said well

4:32

we haven't got a clue what you're talking about.

4:34

Would you like to show us?

4:36

And that began my whole career of art worship.

4:38

Interviewer

Wow, that's amazing.

4:42

It all started with an anthropology course.

4:44

Nancy

Uh huh.

4:46

Interviewer

What work were you doing

4:48

at the time of Re-Imagining?

4:49

Nancy

What work?

4:51

I was an artist.

4:53

I've always been an artist.

4:54

Interviewer

Yes.

4:56

Nancy

I was bringing money by creating art

4:58

for religious events, churches,

5:02

and I taught as an adjunct at PSR

5:07

in the field of the arts and I always taught

5:13

some aspect of art and religion

5:17

Interviewer

And I know you, oh so -- go ahead.

5:22

Nancy

And what else?

5:26

I ran around the country teaching things.

5:27

(Interviewer laughs)

5:31

The same thing I taught at seminary,

5:34

just how do you create art for worship?

5:36

Interviewer

Yes, yeah.

5:39

In your presentation at the '93 Gathering you talked about

5:41

some examples of your work and I see it

5:46

on your website, too.

5:49

For example, at Grace Cathedral.

5:50

Nancy

Yeah, that's a pretty old website, but yes,

5:53

you can see some things there.

5:55

And there is a very good book.

5:56

You probably can find it at United,

5:58

called Spaces For Spirit.

6:00

Interviewer

Yes.

6:05

Nancy

And you'll get a lot more of my writing in that.

6:07

Interviewer

Good, wonderful, thank you.

6:09

So, when and how did you first become aware

6:12

of feminist theology?

6:16

Nancy

That one's a very interesting question.

6:19

I have to start by saying I first became aware

6:22

of feminist thinking with a magazine put out

6:25

by the Methodist church.

6:29

And it's no longer-- the last two issues,

6:31

the first one was on feminist thinking,

6:35

and the second, last, one was one gay lesbian thinking.

6:39

And then the Methodist church shut it down.

6:43

Interviewer

Do you remember what it was called?

6:46

Nancy

And that was 1978.

6:49

Interviewer

Okay.

6:51

Nancy

No, I sure do not, must have been '72.

6:52

Interviewer

Okay.

6:55

Nancy

You know, I don't really remember exactly

6:57

when that was.

7:00

Ad then I just kept paying at 10 tion.

7:02

Well, what does this mean?

7:05

Feminist thinking.

7:06

And I started hearing the language of normal church.

7:09

It must have been '62.

7:13

Because-- or '64, or something, I don't--

7:16

because the next piece that I had was,

7:19

my former husband was a Presbyterian minister,

7:26

at that point a youth pastor,

7:28

in Riverside, California,

7:31

and a group of St. Louis Jesuits had set up

7:33

a residence and some sort of chapel.

7:38

They had a little monastery.

7:45

And we used to go over after worship and worship with them.

7:46

And it was that lovely energy of static and tune,

7:51

and everything is decked,

7:55

everything was so fresh.

7:57

And then we would have lunch together and talk.

7:59

And I'm sure that's when the seeds were planted for me,

8:02

and I remember, interestingly, just desiring so much

8:09

to make things like alter clothes,

8:13

and you know the visual stuff of worship.

8:15

But at that point I was pregnant with number two,

8:19

we were about to move to a new parish,

8:23

and I just buried in kids.

8:27

Interviewer

Oh, interesting.

8:29

Nancy

That emerged powerfully when it did come.

8:33

So the first thing I noticed, that I noticed,

8:38

was that the visual things that I put in the church,

8:42

really were a, what's the right word,

8:48

they're very demanding.

8:55

And they break them.

8:58

They weren't banners that were much closer

9:00

to propaganda, they were,

9:03

they were interrupters.

9:06

Interviewer

Say some more what you mean by that,

9:13

that's interesting, why interrupters?

9:14

Nancy

Well because they were very mysterious.

9:17

And they were very large.

9:20

And you couldn't not look at them.

9:21

And if they were,

9:24

if the service was not, if the ritual was not

9:28

strong enough, they overwhelmed things.

9:31

And if the ritual was well done, they became,

9:35

it was so integrated, and it became like an opera

9:41

that we were in the middle of.

9:45

And that was a very mysterious process.

9:48

And then I was also very conscious,

9:51

that I was doing everything out of temporary materials,

9:54

that they were gonna disappear.

9:59

I was not creating art that was

10:01

what I was being taught in school was art,

10:06

i.e. a commodity that can be invested in, purchased,

10:08

and so forth, and a personality that goes with that.

10:13

I was creating something, and after the first piece went up,

10:18

I began getting all kinds of volunteers to help me make it.

10:21

So I began doing things in community.

10:25

And that was an interrupter.

10:28

Interviewer

And I think I can imagine this,

10:30

but how would you relate it to feminist theology?

10:33

Nancy

Because it wasn't about--

10:37

whew, that's such a big question.

10:42

How would I relate it to feminist thinking?

10:48

Because it's about the community's response.

10:50

Interviewer

Yes.

10:53

Nancy

Because the focus of it is not in authority

10:54

but in response.

10:59

Because it was open-ended, there was no

11:02

specific meaning to it.

11:08

So it begged multiple points of view.

11:11

It's something people responded to emotionally,

11:17

as well as intellectually.

11:21

It's just so open-ended.

11:27

Interviewer

That's great, that is really good.

11:32

What was your, could you say more about your relationship

11:36

to the Re-Imagining community?

11:38

How that developed for the '93 conference?

11:39

Nancy

Yes, it's kind of a funny story.

11:43

As I said, I taught a lot about stuff

11:46

and made a lot of art for churches,

11:50

that's how I earned my living.

11:54

I was very busy.

11:55

And got this letter from Sally Hill

11:57

asking me if I would do something for Re-Imagining.

12:00

I didn't know who she was,

12:03

I didn't know who Re-Imagining was.

12:04

But in the middle of the letter

12:07

the computer somehow switched,

12:09

and they were talking to Sweet Honey in the Rock,

12:11

a vocal group, that they were also asking to do something.

12:15

So I wrote back and I said well, did you want me to do

12:19

the set design for you, the space?

12:23

Or do you want me to teach?

12:28

And they said, well, they wrote back

12:30

and asked what would I teach?

12:32

And at that point I was doing a second

12:34

master's degree, an MFA, which is a terminal degree

12:36

in arts, you can't get a PHD in art.

12:42

And the critique process was so painful for me.

12:49

I just hated it.

12:53

Because you had to bring in new work every week

12:55

and no matter what it was, it was torn apart.

12:58

Not a constructive process.

13:02

And I kept thinking, this is not the way I want to teach,

13:05

not the way I learn.

13:07

And at the same time I had a group

13:10

that emerged--this is a longer story.

13:14

Interviewer

This is great, I love it, go ahead. (laughs)

13:17

Nancy

I had a group that emerged out of the last

13:20

full time class I taught, from there on

13:23

I taught it only in 10 sive 'cause I didn't have time

13:27

to be present for every week in a class.

13:30

So I had a group from that last class

13:37

that wanted to keep going,

13:42

and that class was called Making Art From Your Face.

13:46

Interviewer

It was called Making Art, I'm sorry,

13:50

making art what was that?

13:51

Nancy

From your face.

13:53

Interviewer

From your face, okay.

13:54

Nancy

They were topics like birth and belonging,

13:56

death and leaving, and I don't remember the topics.

13:58

And they said but we don't want to make your topics,

14:06

we want to make our topics.

14:09

(both laugh)

14:10

So I said, okay if I can not teach you,

14:12

but be a part of it with you.

14:16

So I ritualized the opening and the closing,

14:19

and I, we made art together once a week,

14:23

in silence, we had an opening ritual where we

14:26

welcomed in what we wanted to welcome in,

14:30

and then banned what we wanted to ban,

14:33

and then we worked together in silence

14:35

for about two hours,

14:37

everybody doing their own work.

14:39

And then I got the idea if we

14:40

witnessed each other,

14:45

I think witnessing what we people do is very powerful.

14:47

So we had five minutes where everybody could just

14:53

but what they had done up

14:56

and nobody could crosstalk about it,

14:58

you couldn't say well this is what this means.

15:00

And I tried to get rid of all the things in critique

15:03

that I found distracted.

15:06

And if the person wished, they could talk about it,

15:09

or if they wanted to stand and look for five minutes,

15:12

we would do that.

15:15

And there were eight of us, so.

15:17

It was very powerful and what I learned was

15:21

that people learn by doing.

15:24

They don't learn by teaching.

15:26

And by the end of that semester,

15:30

we did a little art show of our work,

15:32

and it was breathtaking.

15:34

I was so amazed.

15:36

During that time I also did my own work

15:40

with that same process.

15:45

And worked hard at finding--

15:48

finding the truth in my body.

15:51

And trying to draw it or present it in some way, visually.

15:59

Interviewer

Could you say a little bit about more what--

16:04

that's so interesting, about finding the truth in your body,

16:06

what did that mean?

16:08

Nancy

How do I put that in words?

16:18

I still have those drawings.

16:22

And I have one where I tried to draw

16:24

what it feels like to be inside my throat.

16:27

I have drawings that talked about

16:32

some of the issues I was going on at--doing at the time

16:35

and how I felt about it.

16:38

So it's the feelings that you work with,

16:40

that you comfort-ize.

16:43

Interviewer

Yeah, fascinating.

16:46

That is great.

16:50

So when you--

16:51

Nancy

And that's what I was trying to do

16:52

with Re-Imagine, with those type,

16:54

with that presentation, with getting people to draw.

16:56

Nancy

And is that enough?

17:00

Interviewer

That's wonderful.

17:03

That is really helpful.

17:05

And you had, it was so interesting,

17:06

I believe, I'm not sure her name correctly,

17:08

Wyn Rea? And you --

17:10

Nancy

Rea.

17:12

Interviewer

Rea? Okay.

17:13

Nancy

R-E-A

17:14

Interviewer

R-E-A, yes.

17:15

Nancy

Now Wyn is the young women I met somewhere,

17:16

I don't remember where, and she was very interested

17:19

in the work that I was doing.

17:21

And when it got time to do this,

17:25

I think they had asked me if I had asked me if

17:28

I'd be comfortable painting as an example.

17:29

I said of course, and then I thought,

17:32

that's too simple I need to do it, something up,

17:35

-

[Nancy To Someone Else] Okay.

17:39

Wyn Rea.

17:41

Nancy

It's at this bumped up against somebody,

17:45

'cause that's what I'm asking people at their table to do,

17:48

not work on your own work but work as a community,

17:51

so I had no idea what her imagery was like,

17:56

I had no idea.

17:59

I just knew that she had the chutzpah to do it,

18:00

so she came and the first thing she said to me

18:04

when we got up on the stage was

18:07

"I've never painted with acrylic, how do you do that?"

18:09

Interviewer

Wow. Really?

18:12

(both laugh)

18:14

Oh my goodness.

18:16

Nancy

So that was a big of a surprise.

18:18

Interviewer

Yes!

18:20

(both laugh)

18:22

And how did it go, Nancy?

18:25

Nancy

How did it go?

18:27

How did what go?

18:29

Interviewer

Oh, sure, so she figured out

18:31

the acrylics, you would able to figure it out?

18:33

Nancy

I just taught her as we went, ya know.

18:36

Interviewer

Oh my goodness.

18:38

Nancy

But this is me, you fix it with your work.

18:39

We didn't have a mic on it, so we could just keep going.

18:42

And then we kept trading over each other's work.

18:45

So she didn't paint a panel and I painted a panel,

18:50

we'd move, we'd take turns between.

18:53

And nobody owned anything.

18:58

Interviewer

Do you remember what that felt like,

19:01

doing that?

19:03

Nancy

Fun!

19:04

Interviewer

Yeah?

19:05

Nancy

Art work is fun.

19:06

Interviewer

Had you ever done exactly that before?

19:07

Nancy

Not with another person, mm mm.

19:10

Interviewer

And what was it like being there

19:12

in this gathering of you know, 2000 people

19:16

while you're doing it?

19:18

Nancy

I was just conscious that we were all

19:22

working together.

19:24

And that what Wyn and I were doing was hopefully

19:27

giving people courage to keep going.

19:31

Interviewer

Could you say a little bit more

19:35

about what you told people to do at the tables,

19:39

if you remember?

19:42

I've seen some of the instructions but I'd love to hear

19:43

what you remember and what you were envisioning.

19:46

I have to tell you, many people have commented

19:47

on how powerful that was for them.

19:49

Nancy

Oh! That's great.

19:51

I don't--I'm glad it was.

19:54

My hope was that they would be a groups of 10,

19:57

this had been started by the committee before I entered,

20:03

that that group of 10s, that my job would be

20:06

to help them be attentive to the topic,

20:08

but comfort-ize it in some form.

20:14

So it was like I was doing with my own drawing.

20:17

Because I think that's a very useful way

20:21

to process information.

20:24

My hope was also that the drawing together,

20:27

I think my intention, and I think what happened was

20:31

they drew the first night and then I asked them

20:34

to cut out the parts they wanted to save,

20:37

and throw the rest away.

20:40

And then they had a new fresh paper

20:42

and they could place that new drawing on with glue,

20:45

or tape, or something, I think it was glue,

20:49

and then just keep going, keep drawing it.

20:51

Because of the medium, which was oil pastel,

20:54

you can go over the tops of things.

20:56

You can layer it, it's better when you layer it.

20:58

And my hope was by the end of the fourth day,

21:05

there would be a rich surface that would become

21:08

the alter cloth for the final ritual.

21:11

The sending forth of milk and honey,

21:15

with milk and honey.

21:17

The meal of milk and honey.

21:18

My desire was to interrupt the usual process of note taking

21:23

and have people immediately begin to get out of

21:29

that dualistic thinking of mind and body

21:33

and put the two together

21:37

that they would be able to just learn in a different way.

21:43

Interviewer

Well talking to people,

21:53

all of that happened, yes.

21:54

(both laugh)

21:56

Nancy

For some.

21:58

There were some tables that wouldn't do it.

21:59

Interviewer

Oh really? Is that right? Huh.

22:01

Interesting. What'd you feel about that?

22:04

What'd you think about that?

22:07

Nancy

And then--it's their choice.

22:08

Interviewer

Yeah, yeah.

22:10

Nancy

Sorry they wouldn't try but you know,

22:11

the invitation was certainly there,

22:15

the materials were there,

22:17

it was very alluring.

22:19

If they walked around and saw anybody else's work

22:21

I'm sure they would have been encouraged but

22:23

I don't know why they froze like that.

22:27

Interviewer

Yeah, mhm, but other people also wrote about

22:29

how powerful that was,

22:33

and people who didn't feel particularly artistic,

22:35

although you said in your presentation we're all artists,

22:38

and then just connecting up with each other.

22:41

I know at least one person actually

22:44

brought it home with them.

22:45

Nancy

Yes, several people have written to me

22:47

over the years to say they still have it,

22:49

or they have a portion of it.

22:51

Some groups divided theirs all up and

22:53

everybody took a piece.

22:56

It was important to people.

22:59

To most people.

23:01

Interviewer

Yes, absolutely.

23:02

Nancy

And then they bought the painting for United.

23:05

People just offered us some money and I gave it all to Wyn

23:10

because I had been paid to be there.

23:14

I thought that was a feminist act too.

23:17

Interviewer

Yes, absolutely.

23:20

Nancy

(laughs) She said "I'm just a volunteer."

23:21

Interviewer

(laughs) Yes.

23:24

Do you have any memories about your presentation

23:25

that you gave?

23:29

Or anything particular about that?

23:31

Nancy

You mean the large group?

23:32

Interviewer

Yeah, you talked about the symbol system

23:36

and the new way of being an artist and of art churches

23:40

in art and new images of old religious ideas,

23:43

those were some of the things I know you talked about.

23:45

Nancy

No, I have no memory of that.

23:48

Interviewer

That's fine.

23:50

Nancy

It's all mushed together,

23:51

it was the same old speech I always did.

23:52

Interviewer

Is that right?

23:54

(both laugh)

23:56

Nancy

Or it was a variation of.

23:57

Interviewer

Well it's important what you remember,

23:59

and it sounds like doing art was.

24:01

Nancy

The other piece that I don't know that

24:05

you know about is that I had in the meantime done

24:08

my MFA on 10 stories from the bible

24:11

that were comfort-izing the abuse of women.

24:21

Interviewer

I read something about that

24:26

but could you please tell me more about this?

24:29

I really wanna hear about this.

24:30

Nancy

Well I surrounded the alter,

24:33

I mean the baptismal fount at Grace Cathedral

24:36

with these pieces.

24:38

And then a friend gave me the money to get lights

24:40

that came down from the ceiling through gobos

24:46

that put the words around the work,

24:50

so that was part of it too,

24:54

on the stone floor.

24:55

And when the light came in through the east,

24:58

in the morning, all you could see was the colored light

25:01

on the floor, and then as the sun rose

25:04

each hour it became more shadowed and the lights

25:08

just rose up out of that light.

25:12

And they were words like:

25:16

murdered, framed, betrayed.

25:18

The stories themselves had the content.

25:26

And I chose 10 because 10 is a minyan,

25:31

in Jewish thinking, there have to be 10

25:35

for it to be, a community of 10 to make it--

25:37

make it okay to be together.

25:43

And so Phyllis Trible's book Texts of Terror

25:47

was a part of my research

25:52

I was good friends with a Jewish family of rabbis,

25:54

a man and a wife, I spent a long time talking with them

25:58

about the midrashic stories.

26:03

I just did the research and then I made the pieces.

26:08

Five were sculptures and five were paintings.

26:11

Interviewer

Do you remember who they were?

26:16

Or something.

26:20

Nancy

Sure.

26:21

Interviewer

Yeah.

26:22

Nancy

And then they traveled with me

26:24

to the first Re-Imagining

26:26

and they were set up in the chapel

26:28

a round room upstairs someplace

26:30

where they were visited by a number of people.

26:34

They also showed first at the Episcopal cathedral

26:38

in Minneapolis.

26:44

Interviewer

Do you remember which biblical women

26:48

you chose for this?

26:50

Nancy

Yes, I chose Lot's wife,

26:51

Zina,

26:58

Interviewer

I missed that word, I'm sorry?

27:01

Zina, Zina in English.

27:02

Interviewer

Oh yes, of course, yes.

27:05

Nancy

The syrophoenician woman,

27:09

the daughter of Zepta,

27:13

the woman bent over double,

27:17

the women Jesus heals on the sabbath,

27:22

who am I leaving out?

27:27

Interviewer

The Levites concubine, perhaps?

27:29

Nancy

No, I did not do her.

27:31

Interviewer

Oh, okay.

27:33

Nancy

Oh, Rizpah.

27:34

Rizpah was one of Saul's concubines,

27:37

and David had all of her children killed

27:40

when he ascended to the throne.

27:46

So there would be no heir.

27:48

No heir that could challenge him.

27:53

And then I chose, I made a tryptic.

27:59

I was very involved with goddess studies

28:02

and I wanted to find out

28:06

what was the parallel

28:10

in our Judea-Christian heritage of that

28:12

trinity of feminine power.

28:16

So I identified that I would do

28:20

Eve as a virgin,

28:23

Mary as a mother,

28:26

and Lois as the crone.

28:28

Interviewer

Oh, interesting.

28:31

Nancy

And so I did a tryptic of them

28:34

but for the 10.

28:37

Interviewer

I'm curious, what was this process

28:40

like for you?

28:42

Nancy

This process?

28:44

Interviewer

Of making those figures, yeah.

28:46

Nancy

Oh, well it pulled all of my passions

28:48

and of all of my mind,

28:53

and all of my skills,

28:55

and all of my research and my inquiry,

28:58

and my--

29:03

everything I had together.

29:07

And Grace was so kind to me,

29:10

to let me have that space.

29:15

I felt like I was--

29:18

I mean I had done a lot of work for them,

29:22

so they knew who I was,

29:24

I wasn't a stranger.

29:25

But I felt like I was had been not only accepted by

29:27

my graduate school process but also by

29:30

the religious community, to do that work.

29:36

And that was completed in 1990 or 91

29:41

I can't remember which.

29:47

Interviewer

You just mentioned -- oh go ahead.

29:51

Nancy

I didn't expect to talk about that.

29:52

Interviewer

Oh, well I'm glad you did!

29:55

That was very powerful.

29:57

And there is a mention of that in Re-Imagining

30:00

and it's good to hear about what that was.

30:03

That was huge.

30:05

And you mentioned something goddess,

30:06

becoming interested in the goddess,

30:08

would you mind saying a little bit

30:10

about how that developed?

30:11

Nancy

Well I was living in Berkeley at the time.

30:13

(both laugh)

30:16

I guess that's the bottom line right there.

30:18

(both laugh)

30:19

And there were just a number of very interesting,

30:20

mostly women, that I think in the center

30:24

of New College, certainly some of it in the GPU,

30:28

and then I belonged to a group of women who were just

30:34

involved in rituals and

30:42

trying to identify the goddess,

30:46

trying to reinterpret the old strictly Christian festivals,

30:49

what would that look like if they were goddess festivals?

30:57

What would they look like if they were discussed

31:00

through a different lens?

31:05

So it's pretty great work.

31:08

Interviewer

Yes!

31:10

And you were doing artistic representations of these?

31:13

Nancy

No, we were ritualizing.

31:15

Interviewer

Ritualizing, okay, got it, got it.

31:18

Interesting.

31:20

I was wondering, in reading to get back

31:21

to Re-Imagining, and was the '93 conference

31:26

the only one that you were involved in?

31:28

Nancy

As an official, yes.

31:31

Interviewer

Okay, did you attend--

31:33

Nancy

I went to--

31:34

Interviewer

Oh.

31:35

Nancy

I attended, oh, maybe five of them?

31:36

Interviewer

Oh you did, okay.

31:38

Nancy

But just as a participant.

31:41

Interviewer

Yeah.

31:43

And what was it like being a participant

31:44

at the other ones, Nancy?

31:45

Nancy

I loved being there.

31:48

It was my community at the time.

31:51

You know, my tribe.

31:55

My son is very connected to Burning Man.

31:57

Interviewer

Oh, yes.

32:01

Nancy

And he speaks about it as his tribe.

32:02

Interviewer

Yes, yeah.

32:05

I remember you wrote about feeling like you came home.

32:07

Like that you weren't alone.

32:10

Nancy

Yeah.

32:11

Interviewer

Yeah.

32:12

I know you experienced backlash after the conference,

32:13

you wrote about that some in your essay,

32:17

in Remembering and Re-Imagining,

32:19

and I wonder if you could talk about how

32:20

that happened and how that affected you.

32:22

Nancy

I've lost your question.

32:27

Interviewer

Oh, I'm sorry.

32:28

The backlash--

32:29

Nancy

What is the topic?

32:30

Interviewer

Oh, I'm sorry, the backlash--

32:31

Nancy

Oh, the backlash.

32:32

Interviewer

Yes.

32:33

Nancy

I was very saddened by it.

32:35

It felt like--

32:37

Mary-Ann Lundy, she lost her job.

32:43

And I grieved for her.

32:47

And I grieved for the narrowness of people's

32:51

points of view.

32:56

The Layman, you know about this?

33:01

The Layman magazine, do you know about that?

33:03

Interviewer

I do, yes.

33:07

Nancy

Well, when they asked permission

33:09

to use the painting

33:11

I didn't understand they were going to edit it down.

33:15

So it became something such a different story

33:19

than I thought I was making.

33:25

I felt so misquoted by them.

33:28

It was a violation.

33:31

I felt violated by them.

33:32

And in the end, instead of discouraging me,

33:37

it was kind of like Trump,

33:43

the more negative stuff that gets thrown at him,

33:45

the stronger he gets.

33:48

(both laugh)

33:49

Interviewer

That may be the only similarity you have

33:52

to Trump but okay!

33:53

(both laugh)

33:54

Interviewer

So you did get stronger from that?

34:01

Nancy

I did, in the end, yes.

34:05

Because what had happened for me

34:08

was so powerful, you can't just shame that away.

34:10

Interviewer

Yeah, and how do you account for it?

34:14

What do you think was the reason for that reaction?

34:19

Nancy

The backlash?

34:23

Interviewer

The backlash, yes.

34:26

Nancy

Oh, because power was being challenged.

34:27

Because a new kind of authority had arisen

34:36

and the powers that be were very threatened by it.

34:41

And there was so much joy.

34:49

And so much enthusiasm.

34:54

I've been thinking this morning

34:56

about the early church,

34:57

and how they met together.

34:59

And how they didn't know where they going,

35:02

and they didn't know what they were about,

35:04

but they couldn't not be together.

35:06

Interviewer

That's a wonderful analogy.

35:10

I didn't mean to interrupt you,

35:14

it's so hard on the phone because I can't see the,

35:16

you know, the nonverbal cues.

35:18

Nancy

Right, right.

35:20

Right.

35:22

Interviewer

So how would you--

35:25

Nancy

I think that's partly what was going on.

35:26

And you know, it's, I think the paradigm is still there.

35:28

If you look, why are people so attached to

35:31

some of the more conservative politics of the day?

35:37

I think it's because they're still reacting.

35:40

We're in the middle of a cultural earthquake.

35:42

That's the shift, the earthquake,

35:49

things have really,

35:51

really, really, really changed.

35:54

Interviewer

How would you describe the change?

36:00

Nancy

I loved the comments

36:06

of the tennis girl, and the person in charge

36:10

of the tennis tournament dissented

36:14

yesterday I think on the news.

36:16

He talked about how women should get down on their knees

36:19

and thank the men who make tennis so great.

36:21

(both laugh)

36:24

Interviewer

Yes, yes.

36:25

Nancy

I thought how weird that man sounds,

36:27

but that is where we were.

36:29

That kind of thinking,

36:34

that men were in charge.

36:35

And women's job was to support the men.

36:39

That's so the way I grew up,

36:42

and that's so the way the world was for so many centuries.

36:45

Interviewer

Absolutely.

36:53

So Nancy how--

36:56

Nancy

And it's not that way anymore,

36:57

now it's more, what can we do together?

36:59

And have you thought about this?

37:04

This is how it seems from my point of view.

37:06

And it's not the same as you're seeing it.

37:10

Interviewer

Yeah, but I think that makes a lot of sense.

37:13

Nancy

Sure it does.

37:17

Interviewer

Absolutely, yes.

37:18

So I think you might be getting towards this but how

37:21

would you define Re-Imagining?

37:24

Nancy

Do you mean how would I define that word

37:28

or the movement?

37:30

Interviewer

I guess the movement, I would say.

37:31

Nancy

I think it's a collective of people

37:37

who want to think about matters of spiritual consequence

37:43

through the lens of feminist critique.

37:53

And they want to,

38:01

and this is something we haven't talked about,

38:04

and I really wanted to get to it.

38:06

They want to do it in a formal academic way,

38:08

as in a formal, spiritual way.

38:12

So it's not just a head thing,

38:18

it's a heart thing too.

38:20

Can I go to a different topic?

38:23

'Cause I don't want it to get lost.

38:27

Interviewer

Absolutely, please do.

38:29

Nancy

Well, after I wrote to Sally Hill

38:30

and got involved in it,

38:36

they put me on the ritual committee.

38:38

And Sue Seid-Martin, who is no longer with us,

38:40

who taught at St. Thomas by the way,

38:43

was such a clear thinker about ritual.

38:49

But because I'd been doing all this work in the

38:52

community in where I live,

38:54

I understood something about the foundation of ritual,

38:56

in a way that she needed me.

39:01

Needed my voice to help her fullness come forth.

39:04

And we had wonderful conversations about

39:11

why we do the things we do and how we do them,

39:14

and how do we take this concept of the first meeting,

39:19

how do we do a gathering so we can climax it

39:24

with a ritual that helps people embody that,

39:28

helps people get out of their heads,

39:31

but not leave their heads behind but

39:35

bring it into their bodies, be more present.

39:37

So we had this wonderful ritual

39:42

designed to close the last night,

39:44

and the academics took all the time.

39:48

And Sally Hill said well, we're gonna cut this out.

39:52

So there was great sadness on those of us

40:00

who knew what could have happened.

40:06

One other thing that happened that was very

40:10

disturbing to me was, I was the first presenter,

40:12

and we had to use those tables as a drawing surface,

40:15

and at the very first they needed to be cleaned off

40:19

before we'd have the conference.

40:23

And nobody would do it.

40:27

So that's why when I got up, I didn't know what to do.

40:31

So I said, okay everybody, put all the dishes

40:35

underneath the table.

40:37

And put that white piece of paper down.

40:38

So there were glitches along the way.

40:49

Interviewer

You know, I am so glad you talked

40:51

about Sue-Seid Martin, she was so important,

40:56

and I would love to hear just a little bit more

40:59

about you collaboration and what you brought

41:02

to that conversation.

41:04

Nancy

I think she was in a very Catholic-centric

41:10

concept of ritual.

41:15

And what I think I brought to it was kind of

41:19

the folks way of doing it.

41:25

(both laugh)

41:27

Because of this collective of women

41:30

that I'd been practicing with,

41:32

for about a couple years before I met Sue,

41:34

I knew how to reinvent things.

41:39

I knew how to reinterpret in a way

41:42

that brought her--

41:45

and because she got it, because we were both speaking truth,

41:48

we got it, and we could carry each other through it,

41:53

through the process.

41:57

Now at the same time I was also working

41:59

with Presbyterians for their National Women's Convention.

42:02

And one of the things I really loved,

42:09

and which I took notes on to be sure to get to you,

42:12

that process of making decisions in Re-Imagining

42:17

was so different than the Presbyterians

42:20

that I have to comment on it.

42:22

What Sue taught me, as the way

42:26

that we worked in our committee,

42:28

the way that she said it worked within the whole,

42:30

was that image of a spiral.

42:34

So we did a great deal of consensus work.

42:37

And she said, and that's what we do

42:40

in the big planning group, we do consensus work.

42:42

That Presbyterian women did everything in committees,

42:46

that had to be approved.

42:49

Everything cleared by an authority.

42:51

And it was a linear process.

42:55

Let's call it parliamentarian.

42:57

Parliamentary process.

43:00

And I think that that, the image

43:03

of the vertical Presbyterians and the

43:06

spiral of the Re-Imagining people,

43:09

is critical to understanding the early beginnings.

43:12

Interviewer

Oh I agree, that is really important.

43:18

Nancy

The other piece is, you asked how did they begin?

43:22

I think it began with Sally Hill going to

43:26

The Decade For Women Conference in Beijing,

43:30

and coming home saying, we have to do something

43:34

with theology, in with it.

43:37

Is that what you've been hearing?

43:42

Interviewer

Yeah, it was the Ecumenical Decade

43:43

in Solidarity with Women that started it off, exactly, yes.

43:45

This is really helpful, Nancy, and I'm glad,

43:51

these are all important things that you're talking about.

43:55

When you look at it, what aspect of Re-Imagining

43:57

were most significant to you and why,

44:00

you talked about several things, so I don't want, you know,

44:02

you may have already said it, but I'd still be curious

44:05

to see what you might say to that.

44:07

Nancy

I felt valued as an artist and so,

44:10

I felt connected to a community

44:14

that wasn't my own community,

44:20

I mean it was my own emotionally

44:25

but it wasn't my own art community.

44:26

I felt that the way of thinking, this spiral way

44:30

of making decisions, was so important,

44:34

that it was relational and not authority being said to me.

44:39

And that's I think what troubles me

44:47

about where I saw it all going, because it

44:49

became about theology and not about practice,

44:53

it became more sterile, as that went on.

44:58

Interviewer

Really, do you saw that in the gatherings

45:05

as you went to the later gatherings, is that what you saw?

45:07

Nancy

Yeah, that was my experience.

45:10

Interviewer

Sure, yeah.

45:15

Did your involvement in Re-Imagining change your perspective

45:17

on feminist theology or the church at all?

45:20

Nancy

Change my perspective...

45:23

I think I see my own perspective as something that

45:30

is a continuum and it just keeps going

45:34

and Re-Imagining didn't bend it, it just made it stronger.

45:35

I just kept going where I was going anyway.

45:43

Interviewer

And even the backlash sounded like

45:48

it strengthened you.

45:49

Nancy

Yes.

45:51

Interviewer

And do you think of specific contributions

45:52

that Re-Imagining made to Christian theology or liturgy?

45:56

Nancy

It's too jumbled up with the rest of my life,

46:04

so integrated, I can't perse it out like that.

46:07

Interviewer

Yeah, sure.

46:10

Fair enough.

46:12

Nancy

That and I'm old.

46:15

(both laugh)

46:16

So my memories I do, the memory process

46:19

is different when you get older.

46:21

It's hard to remember specifics.

46:25

I know that it was an important time for me.

46:31

It was important enough with my limited resources

46:36

to get back there whenever I could.

46:39

Interviewer

Yes, well the details may not be there,

46:41

but certainly your reflections have been very powerful

46:44

and wise, so, that's definitely there.

46:47

Nancy

Oh, thanks.

46:50

Interviewer

And what do you think Re-Imagining,

46:53

and I don't just mean the Re-Imagining community,

46:55

but what does Re-Imagining mean today?

46:58

I mean what do you think needs to be re-imagined? Or--

47:00

Nancy

Well first of all I think it's been co-opt

47:03

by our culture, until we have re-imagining baking

47:05

Re-imagining cars, where you're at something

47:09

so I think the first thing it has to do

47:13

is that name needs to be somehow reclaimed or renamed.

47:16

It's been trivialized by it's cultural advertising.

47:28

Interviewer

And what needs to be, even if we don't

47:39

use that word, but what needs to be, what would you hope

47:41

would be re-imagined today?

47:45

In terms of spirituality or--

47:49

Nancy

I would hope that we would continue to evolve

47:50

a cosmic sense of who Christ is.

47:57

And that that-- I just finished a piece

48:03

that I'm really excited about,

48:05

it's a portrait of St. Francis,

48:07

I'm working in clay now because I can't see very well.

48:09

And it's a tryp--it's three parts of one monument.

48:13

And it's tall, you know, it's probably,

48:19

the tallest is probably 15 inches high.

48:22

When you look down on it, it's a tau cross,

48:25

which was his form of devotion,

48:28

he didn't like that black cross,

48:31

he liked the tau one.

48:33

When you see it's face,

48:35

why I wanted to do Francis was

48:38

that he was one of the early theologians

48:40

who saw God at work in all of creation

48:43

from the beginning of time.

48:48

So that Christ is that manifestation of God,

48:50

visible in nature, for instance.

48:56

But I chose the prayer of Canticle of the Sun,

49:00

and each of the three faces on each of the three towers

49:07

I adorned with different aspects of that prayer

49:11

and I'm really excited about that.

49:15

Because I think to re-imagine the Christ needing

49:18

that salvific aspect of God,

49:25

the mercy side of God, the side of God that calls us

49:27

toward wholeness, toward our potential,

49:31

toward our beauty as a species,

49:35

and as a part of creation.

49:40

I think the more we can bring that forth,

49:45

the more clearly that we can shine that out,

49:48

I think that's where we need to go into the world.

49:52

Interviewer

As your talking I'm thinking

49:58

I would love to see this sculpture, Nancy,

49:59

it sounds powerful,

50:01

Nancy

Two parts are still in the kiln,

50:04

so when I get it put together,

50:07

I'll send you a little photograph of it.

50:10

Interviewer

I would so appreciate that.

50:12

Thank you.

50:14

Nancy

But that's what I would re-imagine.

50:16

I think our world is in, I think it's a beautiful world,

50:20

but I think that our geopolitical situation

50:23

is terrifying.

50:27

And I see at the basis of that

50:30

so many things that need to be re-imagined.

50:33

Class, economics, distribution of wealth,

50:36

sexism, speciesism.

50:39

(both laugh)

50:47

I still swat mosquitoes but I stopped eating animals.

50:48

(both laugh)

50:50

All the -isms need to be examined so badly.

50:57

Interviewer

Absolutely.

51:01

I have one last specific question for you.

51:05

We are developing a re-imagining website

51:07

and a lot of it is about making the different resources

51:09

available, digitizing things,

51:13

and I was just wondering if you had thoughts

51:15

about what we should include or who would benefit from it,

51:17

or connections we should make.

51:21

Nancy

I'm glad to know it's not there,

51:23

because I've searched since I got your letter,

51:24

I've searched all over trying to look for it.

51:27

Interviewer

Oh sorry.

51:28

Nancy

I can't find it anywhere.

51:29

Interviewer

It won't be ready

51:30

until the end of the summer it looks like,

51:31

we're having a web designer do it.

51:32

And by the way, I will send you, when it's ready,

51:36

I will send you a link to it.

51:39

Nancy

Great.

51:41

Now your question was, what should be on it?

51:42

Interviewer

Yes.

51:44

Nancy

The world.

51:47

I will love reading and seeing everything.

51:51

But of course I would love to have a section

51:56

on Re-Imagining through visual information.

51:59

Interviewer

Yes.

52:02

Nancy

Like the St. Francis one.

52:03

Interviewer

Actually, if you would be willing,

52:12

you don't need to answer now,

52:15

but we were thinking of making all kinds of

52:16

links and resources and if you would be willing

52:19

to have us link to anything you're doing

52:21

I think that would add a lot.

52:24

But you don't have to answer that now,

52:25

you can think about that.

52:27

Nancy

Yeah, it would depend on

52:29

what's required of me to do.

52:30

Interviewer

Sure.

52:32

Nancy

And what kind of collection do I need

52:33

to pull together and how do I do that?

52:38

I'm not-- I live up in the middle of a forest,

52:40

and I don't have a lot of technology.

52:45

Like I couldn't open your communal open office

52:50

or whatever it was, Microsoft Office.

52:51

Interviewer

Well while I'm thinking of it,

52:55

and once again you don't have to say now,

52:57

but even a link, you said the website is outdated,

52:58

but it has a lot of beautiful images

53:01

and links to your books,

53:04

would that be-- you can think about whether that

53:06

would be something you would want to have linked.

53:08

Nancy

Yeah, yeah, I'll talk it over

53:10

with my, like, crew.

53:12

Interviewer

That sounds good, that sounds fair enough.

53:14

Nancy

May I look at my notes, just before we hang up?

53:17

Interviewer

Oh, please, I was gonna say

53:20

is there anything you'd like to add,

53:22

'cause I wanna hear it, you've said wonderful things.

53:23

Nancy

I wanna know what happened

53:25

to Rita Nakashima Brock.

53:26

Interviewer

She is at Brite Divinity School,

53:28

and I will be interviewing her in May.

53:31

Nancy

I love her presentations.

53:34

Interviewer

Yes. Say some more about that,

53:37

I'd love to hear--

53:40

Nancy

Well, because she told her stories,

53:41

because she used her stories to talk about theology

53:43

instead of talking about theology,

53:48

you know, it was grounded in her life.

53:52

It's the same old same old I've been trying to talk about,

53:56

and I found that her,

53:59

I found her fresh in the middle of a more academic

54:04

collection of people.

54:08

Interviewer

Yes.

54:12

May I have your permission to tell her that?

54:16

Nancy

Of course!

54:18

Interviewer

I'd love to, I'm sure she would

54:20

appreciate hearing that.

54:21

Nancy

You know, I'm sorry I haven't been reading

54:23

new work from her.

54:28

I read the book about-- it wasn't original blessing

54:29

but it was about, I can't see it on my bookshelf right now,

54:33

it was about how the cross has not been the center

54:38

of Christian art.

54:43

And I was so happy she'd written that book.

54:46

Interviewer

And she actually came after Re-Imagining

54:54

ended in 2003, she came, there was sort of like a reunion

54:56

and she came and talked about that book and showed images,

54:59

it was really interesting.

55:02

Nancy

Yeah.

55:03

You asked at some point where did I start

55:07

with feminist theology.

55:11

Interviewer

Yeah!

55:13

Nancy

And I wrote down these notes, that, you know,

55:14

early on.

55:17

I talked about the Vatican too.

55:19

And it was Jesuits who came out of that,

55:22

I think they were the beginning,

55:25

but then I remember Beverly Harrison,

55:27

and coming across her work and it having such

55:30

an echo in my own life.

55:35

And Elizabeth Johnson, especially She Who Is.

55:38

And Texts of Terror.

55:43

And I have gone through a terrible divorce,

55:48

and the transition in that was really were I found

55:52

that the power of men over women

55:59

was something that had to be identified and fought.

56:02

I found that in the end, women don't have a lot of

56:08

credence I guess, cultural credence.

56:15

And that's also when I became strongly women identified.

56:22

I now, my partner Harriet has been with me since 1991.

56:28

Interviewer

That's wonderful, and she's the one who

56:33

did the book Wisdom Searches with you?

56:38

Nancy

Yeah.

56:40

Interviewer

Oh, how wonderful.

56:41

Nancy

It's a lovely story.

56:44

We ended up in Berkeley at the same time,

56:48

and she came from Australia,

56:51

and actually was my student.

56:55

But we didn't do anything romantic until a year later.

56:58

And then we were in a good relationship

57:05

for 14 months, and then she went back to Australia,

57:12

to her life there,

57:16

and realized that she was being called to be my partner.

57:18

Which scared the shit out of me.

57:22

(both laugh)

57:23

For goodness sakes.

57:25

So that was going on while Re-Imagining was on also.

57:30

This huge shift in my life, personally.

57:34

Interviewer

I'm so happy for both of you.

57:39

Nancy

Thank you.

57:43

Yeah, we are very happy.

57:45

We spend our days trying to bring God's love into the world.

57:48

Interviewer

Well I can feel it talking to you, Nancy.

57:57

Nancy

Oh can you?

58:00

Thank you.

58:01

Interviewer

I sure can, yes.

58:02

Is there anything else?

58:06

You've said so many wonderful things.

58:07

Did you wanna check your notes again?

58:09

I just wanna make sure I give you

58:11

a chance to mention everything.

58:12

Nancy

Yes, I have one last thing.

58:23

Interviewer

Good.

58:26

Nancy

I think the challenges for Re-Imagining

58:28

have to be addressed.

58:31

And you might be in a place to carry this forth.

58:33

It's that ritual that we lost.

58:37

In that first day, and then further down the road,

58:41

because anything that seizes your heart and your mind

58:46

is unstoppable.

58:53

And the mind can't be seized by ideas alone.

58:55

We have to be comfort-ize it in some way.

58:59

In our body, in a sacred way.

59:03

I'm thinking of people who are out on the lines fighting

59:09

for Black Lives Matter,

59:13

that they get this.

59:15

Not the concepts,

59:17

it's putting your life on the line.

59:19

We don't need to put our lives on the line,

59:22

we need to put our hearts on the line.

59:24

And unless that happens, we're still doing

59:31

dualistic thinking.

59:38

So for unified thinking to happen, we need to ritualize

59:41

the work itself.

59:48

I taught a class on Sophia,

59:53

one of my last classes I taught,

59:55

and I actually made people spend five minutes

59:57

at the beginning and five minutes at the end

1:00:00

in prayer to Sophia, I used the Sophia blessing.

1:00:03

And I said you don't have to believe this,

1:00:08

you just have to do it.

1:00:10

And watch what happens, see what happens to you.

1:00:12

Maybe nothing, you may have a window,

1:00:16

you may have a point of conversion, I don't know.

1:00:19

But unless you do the work of prayer and action together,

1:00:24

along with these ideas, they remain sterile.

1:00:32

And what we were doing was making a book of ours,

1:00:37

of prayers to Holy wisdom, we were using collage

1:00:41

and writing poems with it, that was the work, of the class.

1:00:45

And they had to read a book about Sophia

1:00:50

that I wanted them to read.

1:00:54

Interviewer

This sounds wonderful, and I'm curious,

1:00:57

did you get any reactions from people?

1:00:59

About what that was like for them?

1:01:02

Nancy

I only had it for five days.

1:01:06

Interviewer

Oh.

1:01:08

Nancy

It was an intensive class.

1:01:10

I had it for six hours a day for five days.

1:01:13

At the end they had their books made.

1:01:18

I have no idea what happened from it.

1:01:20

Interviewer

It sounds like an amazing experience.

1:01:24

Nancy

You just put things out there

1:01:27

and where it goes, I don't know.

1:01:29

Interviewer

Right?

1:01:31

Teaching's always like that isn't it.

1:01:32

Nancy

It is.

1:01:34

The ideas are really cool, I'd be like,

1:01:37

what do you think of this?

1:01:38

Interviewer

Right.

1:01:40

Exactly.

1:01:42

Nancy

What do you teach?

1:01:43

Interviewer

I teach theology and women's studies,

1:01:44

so mostly reformation, that's what I'm hired for,

1:01:46

but I also teach a course

1:01:49

on women in the Christian tradition.

1:01:50

Nancy

Oh, that's exciting.

1:01:52

Listen, I have a wonderful paper cut out,

1:01:55

I'll send a copy to you,

1:01:57

a photograph of that if I can remember it,

1:01:59

it's Mary Magdalene.

1:02:01

Interviewer

Yes?

1:02:02

Nancy

And she's celebrating eucharist,

1:02:04

and with her parish.

1:02:06

Interviewer

I would love to see this.

1:02:09

I would love that.

1:02:11

Well I think I'm gonna end the recording now,

1:02:14

if that's okay with you?

1:02:16

Nancy

Sure.

1:02:18

Interviewer

Okay, I'm just turning it off now.

1:02:19

Chinn, Nancy

Transcript

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Sallie Bingham Center for Women's History & Culture

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