Kersting, Betty
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| - | Betty, thank you so much | 0:00 |
| for your willingness to be interviewed. | 0:02 | |
| I really appreciate it. | 0:04 | |
| If you could start by saying your full name. | 0:05 | |
| - | Betty Kersting. | 0:08 |
| - | Thank you. And could you just spell that for us? | 0:10 |
| - | K-E-R-S-T-I-N-G | 0:14 |
| - | Oh, thank you. | 0:18 |
| And Betty, are you lay or clergy? | 0:19 | |
| - | I'm a lay person. | 0:22 |
| - | And your denomination? | 0:23 |
| - | Presbytarian. | 0:25 |
| - | Thank you. | 0:27 |
| And Betty, when and where were you born? | 0:28 | |
| - | I was born in Twin Falls, Idaho | 0:31 |
| on May, the 18th, 1936. | 0:35 | |
| - | Oh, well thank you. | 0:38 |
| And where did you go to school? | 0:40 | |
| - | You mean to graduate school? | 0:44 |
| - | Yes, sure. | 0:46 |
| - | Well, I can talk about college. | 0:48 |
| I went to two years at Church of the Brethren. | 0:50 | |
| I grew up in the Church of the Brethren. | 0:53 | |
| And then my parents had moved to a new town | 0:56 | |
| in Washington State, so I transferred to Whitworth College. | 1:00 | |
| And then, from there, | 1:04 | |
| I went to San Francisco Theological Seminary. | 1:06 | |
| - | San Francisco Theological Seminary, interesting. | 1:10 |
| It sounds like something's | 1:13 | |
| clicking on the phone or something. | 1:14 | |
| Is that yours or mine? Can you tell? | 1:16 | |
| - | I don't hear any clicking here. | 1:20 |
| - | Oh, okay. | 1:22 |
| - | Should we try something else? | 1:24 |
| - | Let's go a little bit further and see how it goes. | 1:27 |
| I'm curious, if you don't mind my asking, | 1:31 | |
| what led you to go to the theological school? | 1:34 | |
| To the seminary? | 1:37 | |
| - | I have always been torn between social work | 1:40 |
| and working in the church. | 1:43 | |
| - | Okay. | 1:44 |
| - | And I decided to go to seminary | 1:45 |
| and I was trying to decide whether I was going to | 1:49 | |
| go to the Church of the Brethren | 1:52 | |
| or the Presbytarian. | 1:53 | |
| - | Okay. Betty, I'm sorry. | 1:55 |
| I'm going to interrupt for one second. | 1:57 |
| - | Betty Kersting, we had to change. | 0:02 |
| They were having problems with the phone line, | 0:05 | |
| so if you could pick up with | 0:06 | |
| where you went to school again. | 0:08 | |
| - | I spent my first two years of college | 0:11 |
| in McPherson, Kansas at Church of the Brethren school. | 0:14 | |
| 'Cause grew up, my family was involved | 0:18 | |
| in the Church of the Brethren. | 0:21 | |
| And then Mom and Dad moved to Washington State | 0:22 | |
| and so I transferred Woodburn College | 0:25 | |
| which was a private training school. | 0:27 | |
| Then Washington State and in trying to decide | 0:29 | |
| where I wanted to go to graduate school. | 0:33 | |
| It was really difficult because at Woodburn | 0:35 | |
| I experienced a very conservative Presbyterian | 0:38 | |
| and I didn't really want to go somewhere | 0:44 | |
| where they would be conservative Presbyterian. | 0:48 | |
| They all actually taught. | 0:51 | |
| (both laughing) | 0:52 | |
| So I finally decided to go to San Francisco Theological | 0:54 | |
| seminary which very mind stretching and wonderful. | 0:58 | |
| - | Oh wonderful, well what work or ministry were you doing | 1:02 |
| then at the time of Re-Imagining? | 1:08 | |
| - | What was I doing? | 1:12 |
| - | Yes. | |
| - | My husband and I had retired | 1:15 |
| and we returned to San Jose. | 1:16 | |
| This is his hometown. | 1:19 | |
| This is where he's a third generation in Santa Fe. | 1:20 | |
| So we had here for a year in retirement. | 1:24 | |
| - | Okay, in 1993 at the time of Re-Imagining. | 1:28 |
| You were both retired at that point. | 1:33 | |
| - | We were retired. | 1:36 |
| - | Oh okay, what kind of work | 1:37 |
| - | We had just been here maybe a year, two years. | 1:38 |
| Okay so what kind of work or ministry had you done | 1:42 | |
| before that Betty? | 1:46 | |
| - | Well as I said my time was divided between social work | 1:47 |
| and the church and I in time was able to go back | 1:51 | |
| and get my degrees in clinical social work. | 1:55 | |
| And I started a family ministry in our church | 1:59 | |
| with counseling and groups for young mothers. | 2:05 | |
| And then politically since my husband was pastor | 2:09 | |
| and people didn't think I should be paid for my work. | 2:13 | |
| I moved to the local mental health center | 2:18 | |
| and became the manager of the mental health center | 2:22 | |
| and a therapist at that time. | 2:24 | |
| - | Wow, okay, very interesting. | 2:26 |
| So Betty do you recall how or when you first became | 2:30 | |
| aware of feminist theology? | 2:33 | |
| - | Really, Re-Imagining. | 2:36 |
| - | Really? | |
| - | I had gotten so much into the social work | 2:38 |
| and into my private practice then | 2:44 | |
| that I just hadn't thought about. | 2:48 | |
| I didn't know about feminist theology really. | 2:51 | |
| I knew that some of the study groups that I had just started | 2:54 | |
| with personal friends in Colorado that we quite. | 2:58 | |
| One time we ended with the study we were reading. | 3:02 | |
| I can't remember we're studying words or whatever. | 3:06 | |
| We all looked at one another and threw our books | 3:09 | |
| in the middle of the room and said it's enough of that. | 3:10 | |
| - | Oh really? | 3:13 |
| What provoke that? | 3:15 | |
| Do you remember? | 3:16 | |
| - | Pardon? | 3:18 |
| - | What provoke that reaction? | 3:18 |
| Do you remember? | 3:20 | |
| - | I'm sure it's just what didn't go along | 3:22 |
| with our views of who and what women are (laughing). | 3:25 | |
| It just wasn't acceptable to us | 3:30 | |
| and I can't remember whether | 3:34 | |
| that was a Presbyterian women's study. | 3:35 | |
| 'Cause they kept wonderful studies I think. | 3:37 | |
| Later at that time, that would have been | 3:40 | |
| like in late 70s and 80s. | 3:42 | |
| I can just remember that one happening | 3:51 | |
| of throwing them in the middle of the room | 3:53 | |
| and that's enough. | 3:55 | |
| We're not doing that anymore. | 3:58 | |
| (both laughing) | 3:59 | |
| - | Well it sounds like even | 4:00 |
| if you didn't know feminist theology. | 4:01 | |
| Had you already encountered feminist ideas or? | 4:04 | |
| - | Oh yes, pretty much so. | 4:07 |
| We met in Taos, New Mexico in the 60s | 4:09 | |
| and we spend a lot of time at Ghost ranch. | 4:12 | |
| And Jennifer Dan was there I think. | 4:17 | |
| It was just the beginning of an era. | 4:24 | |
| When did they start the NOW organization. | 4:26 | |
| - | Oh I don't remember the exact date. | 4:29 |
| That's a good question. | 4:31 | |
| - | I think it was that summer | 4:32 |
| she began to think about starting. | 4:35 | |
| I just remembered that being a summer | 4:41 | |
| that it really struck me. | 4:43 | |
| And that would have been in the 60s. | 4:46 | |
| - | Exactly, wow, oh interesting. | 4:49 |
| So I am really eager to hear. | 4:52 | |
| What led to you going to the Re-Imagining conference then? | 4:54 | |
| - | I really didn't know about the Re-Imagining conference | 4:58 |
| but my husband saw it advertised | 5:01 | |
| and a friend in Colorado saw it advertised. | 5:04 | |
| My husband suggest that I go. | 5:09 | |
| My friend in Colorado said, | 5:12 | |
| "Go, I'm sending you with my money." | 5:14 | |
| - | Oh really, wow. | 5:16 |
| - | He paid for my way to go. | 5:20 |
| - | How nice. | 5:22 |
| - | Now your husband was a Presbyterian minister, right? | 5:24 |
| - | Yes. | 5:27 |
| - | Yes, I'm just curious. | 5:28 |
| Do you know what about the conference intrigued him | 5:30 | |
| and your friend to make them want you to go? | 5:34 | |
| - | Penny had been a member of the Presbyterian church | 5:39 |
| that her family had in Minneapolis. | 5:43 | |
| - | Oh I see. | 5:46 |
| - | I think that's how Penny probably heard about it. | 5:46 |
| - | Okay, sure, okay. | 5:49 |
| - | And Raymond would have heard about it through | 5:51 |
| some national Presbyterian PCUSA material. | 5:54 | |
| He'd be going very much aware of what's being published | 6:00 | |
| and what's going on and all the conferences, | 6:03 | |
| and he knew I was a feminist so. | 6:06 | |
| - | Yes, oh that's great. | 6:08 |
| So obviously you went to the '93 conference. | 6:11 | |
| I would love to hear what your experience was there. | 6:14 | |
| - | I was just thinking, the words that came to me | 6:18 |
| when I was thinking about this. | 6:23 | |
| I thought the image and were Miriam dancing. | 6:25 | |
| - | Say some more about that. | 6:33 |
| - | Just the joy, the utter joy and the strength, | 6:35 |
| the boldness, the celebration. | 6:42 | |
| - | Yes, yeah that's a great image. | 6:44 |
| Were there certain memories in particular | 6:49 | |
| that you have of that conference? | 6:52 | |
| Things that particularly struck you? | 6:53 | |
| - | Certainly the speakers and the music | 6:57 |
| and the freedom to explore, freedom to interpret. | 7:02 | |
| There was no rigidity there. | 7:11 | |
| The openness. | 7:14 | |
| - | And you said that this was really your first exposure | 7:17 |
| to feminist theology. | 7:19 | |
| - | Yes from the Christian perspective, yeah. | 7:21 |
| Otherwise it had just been feminist. | 7:26 | |
| - | Yes but it sounds like you immediately resonated with it? | 7:30 |
| - | Pretty much so. | 7:34 |
| I had just come back. | 7:36 | |
| I can't remember but Raymond and I | 7:37 | |
| had just gotten back from a trip to Peru or where we. | 7:38 | |
| I was exhausted when I arrived there, | 7:42 | |
| and I talked one friend from Santa Fe in going with me. | 7:46 | |
| And Jackie was not a feminist | 7:50 | |
| and she had never read any theology | 7:54 | |
| and it was so much better to see Jackie | 8:00 | |
| just explode, it was wonderful. | 8:03 | |
| - | Oh when you say to explode. | 8:08 |
| - | Just loved it. | 8:09 |
| - | Oh that's wonderful. | 8:10 |
| Is she the one who wrote the essay with you? | 8:11 | |
| In Remembering and Re-Imagining? | 8:14 | |
| - | Yes, uh-huh. | 8:16 |
| - | Okay, you mentioned that you attended | 8:18 |
| some of the other conferences as well. | 8:21 | |
| I know it's been awhile, are there any moments | 8:24 | |
| that you particularly recall? | 8:26 | |
| - | Let me think. | 8:30 |
| The one where I just remember there were several | 8:32 | |
| but one was the images of the house. | 8:39 | |
| There were images of people around the room | 8:43 | |
| weren't there? | 8:45 | |
| Cut out of people. | 8:46 | |
| - | Yes, was this the women who had been the result | 8:48 |
| of domestic violence was that what you're thinking of? | 8:52 | |
| - | I just remembered being surrounded by those | 8:56 |
| and by then some of us had been | 8:59 | |
| to the Fourth World Women's Conference together in Beijing. | 9:04 | |
| And we were able to meet again there. | 9:09 | |
| The friendships that begin to form | 9:14 | |
| across the country was so exciting. | 9:16 | |
| - | You mean because of Re-Imagining? | 9:23 |
| - | Yeah because it gave us an opportunity to be together | 9:25 |
| and just celebrate and learn together. | 9:28 | |
| - | Yes, wow and so you went to the Beijing meeting? | 9:32 |
| - | Yes, uh-huh. | 9:38 |
| - | And I know it's not directly Re-Imagining | 9:40 |
| but I'd love to hear about any memories you have of that. | 9:41 | |
| - | It was a fantastic experience. | 9:49 |
| I met with United Church women | 9:52 | |
| and in a way it was lonely, | 9:55 | |
| 'cause I really didn't go with someone that I knew. | 9:59 | |
| But it was through that that I met a lot of women. | 10:04 | |
| But it was an unbelievable experience | 10:07 | |
| being with all of those wonderful women. | 10:15 | |
| - | Yeah, yeah Betty you were aware of the backlash | 10:18 |
| after the '93 Conference? | 10:23 | |
| Well I know you were so did any of it affect you directly? | 10:25 | |
| - | It affected me because of General Assembly | 10:31 |
| and I did go to General Assembly and was just furious | 10:35 | |
| with the questions being asked of us. | 10:43 | |
| And I did testify at General Assembly | 10:47 | |
| because we had to get up and testify | 10:50 | |
| about what happened and what I experience was | 10:54 | |
| because we were accused of much. | 10:57 | |
| - | I wanna hear more about this. | 11:01 |
| This is fascinating. | 11:02 | |
| First of all, did you volunteer to testify? | 11:03 | |
| Is that how that worked? | 11:08 | |
| - | Yeah, uh-huh. | 11:09 |
| - | And how long did you have to testify? | 11:10 |
| - | Not very long. | 11:14 |
| I have a complex. | 11:18 | |
| You change computers and you gradually | 11:19 | |
| tend to lose stuff written down. | 11:22 | |
| - | I know. | 11:24 |
| - | But at least I do and I must have it somewhere. | 11:25 |
| I guess I was just so angry to be questioned | 11:30 | |
| about my faith and my belief | 11:35 | |
| and as an elder in the church. | 11:40 | |
| As one who had a theological education as a woman, | 11:43 | |
| as a teacher. | 11:47 | |
| - | Yes. | |
| - | I was just furious and we all were just furious about that | 11:51 |
| and I know that we had sent around a petition, | 11:58 | |
| and I sent a petition to my mother in Washington State. | 12:07 | |
| And at that time, mother was 80. | 12:11 | |
| The same age I'm going to be and mother got in her car | 12:13 | |
| and she drove around to all the church members | 12:17 | |
| and had them sign that petition. | 12:19 | |
| And I don't know if you had a copy of that petition | 12:22 | |
| but I don't even know what it says | 12:24 | |
| but I know my mother was really upset. | 12:27 | |
| - | Oh my goodness. | 12:29 |
| I don't have a copy. | 12:31 | |
| I just know from your essay, you described it as a petition | 12:32 | |
| supporting the right of women to search out | 12:35 | |
| their own spirituality. | 12:37 | |
| It was along those lines? | 12:40 | |
| - | It must have been. | 12:42 |
| Just when I wrote that, | 12:43 | |
| I was in Close Ridge at that time. | 12:44 | |
| - | It's been a long time, I know. | 12:47 |
| You said that you were referred to as the Santa Fe Six? | 12:49 | |
| - | Yeah, the Santa Fe Six, | 12:55 |
| that's when we sort of pulled together | 12:56 | |
| and we went to General Assembly. | 12:59 | |
| And also the other place we went | 13:02 | |
| was the Christian Women Conference in, | 13:03 | |
| I think it was in Maine, Iowa that year | 13:08 | |
| that we went there. | 13:11 | |
| We specifically went to National Conference. | 13:12 | |
| so we could speak positively about our experience. | 13:16 | |
| - | Really? | 13:20 |
| I wanna hear about both of those. | 13:22 | |
| Before we more onto that I wanted to hear | 13:23 | |
| about General Assembly. | 13:25 | |
| What was the reaction to your petition? | 13:26 | |
| - | There were a lot of people that were very opposed | 13:30 |
| to what we did and there were also a lot people | 13:34 | |
| that gave support and certainly the Presbyterian women. | 13:38 | |
| And I remember we put in things | 13:41 | |
| so there's always this big vendor area, | 13:43 | |
| and then the different organizations | 13:47 | |
| have their booth and all that. | 13:49 | |
| And I just remember working real hard, | 13:50 | |
| handing out information to people. | 13:52 | |
| Trying to educate them about it | 13:54 | |
| and putting up posters and signs. | 13:56 | |
| - | You were busy. | 14:04 |
| - | All of that. | |
| - | I know it's been awhile, as you know a report | 14:08 |
| was finally voted on about Re-Imagining | 14:11 | |
| at the General Assembly. | 14:14 | |
| - | You know I can't even remember what was said. | 14:15 |
| - | It's been a long time, that's fine. | 14:18 |
| But do you have any memory of how you felt when you left | 14:20 | |
| General Assembly after doing all that? | 14:23 | |
| - | I came away not satisfied. | 14:30 |
| More emboldened I'm sure. | 14:32 | |
| - | And you said you were angry and upset. | 14:36 |
| I think you said some really good things there | 14:41 | |
| but what was the particular things that were said | 14:43 | |
| that made you upset or that seemed really wrong to you? | 14:48 | |
| - | You know i just kept going through my mind | 14:55 |
| was how dare they question us. | 14:58 | |
| How dare they judge us? | 15:03 | |
| - | Yeah, yeah and what was it like | 15:05 |
| when you went to Presbyterian Women | 15:09 | |
| or these other meetings to explain? | 15:11 | |
| - | There was some very supportive people | 15:14 |
| and there were people that were not supportive. | 15:15 | |
| Again that we did the presentations | 15:19 | |
| and just tried to spread the word, | 15:22 | |
| talk to people when we had meals together. | 15:25 | |
| And those of us who went really reinforced one another. | 15:28 | |
| I think there must have been at least three of us | 15:34 | |
| from Santa Fe that went. | 15:39 | |
| That have been to, there were three of us | 15:42 | |
| I think that went. | 15:46 | |
| - | That went to Presbyterian Women | 15:48 |
| that had been to Re-Imagining? | 15:49 | |
| - | Yeah, I'm just trying, yeah I think. | 15:51 |
| I'm really confused about one person | 15:53 | |
| and when she went to Re-Imagining. | 15:55 | |
| I'm having a hard time. | 15:57 | |
| I just need to write down dates and try to figure things out | 15:59 | |
| and I haven't done that. | 16:03 | |
| - | Don't worry that's fine. | 16:04 |
| This is really helpful. | 16:07 | |
| I wondered as you look back at it. | 16:10 | |
| How do you account for the reaction against Re-Imagining? | 16:13 | |
| What caused it? | 16:18 | |
| - | I think men, orthodoxy, lack of openness. | 16:22 |
| I don't know whether some people might think | 16:41 | |
| that there was fear. | 16:43 | |
| I probably say more stupidity. | 16:47 | |
| (both laughing) | 16:49 | |
| You know, Raymond had left what we call | 16:52 | |
| contemporary worship services for many years. | 16:58 | |
| Since the early 70s and so I was so attuned | 17:01 | |
| to a different, for a more open worship service. | 17:06 | |
| And being allowed to use a screen and worship | 17:10 | |
| with imagery that went along with all the scripture | 17:13 | |
| and all of that. | 17:17 | |
| That I probably was more open to receiving this | 17:19 | |
| than some because in Santa Fe. | 17:23 | |
| If anyone says have a scream in the sanctuary, | 17:28 | |
| everybody throws up their arms in dismay. | 17:31 | |
| I mean it's like, oh you gotta be kidding. | 17:35 | |
| - | Are you saying now this is true? | 17:38 |
| - | We should be using iPads by now. | 17:41 |
| (laughing) | 17:43 | |
| - | Well I wanna hear about, there are several things | 17:49 |
| that you were involved in and one of them was | 17:52 | |
| a Women's Theological book group | 17:54 | |
| that apparently is still meeting. | 17:56 | |
| I would love to hear about that. | 17:58 | |
| - | We should pull together all the books that we read | 18:03 |
| 'cause we read some real topics. | 18:06 | |
| But once we started out with, | 18:09 | |
| we were talking the other day | 18:10 | |
| and one of our first books was by Isler. | 18:12 | |
| Do you know her? | 18:17 | |
| - | Yes, yes. | 18:18 |
| - | It's something about God. | 18:21 |
| We read goddess books. | 18:22 | |
| We read since we were accused of worshiping goddesses. | 18:24 | |
| We though we should read about it. | 18:27 | |
| (both laughing) | 18:28 | |
| - | And what did you, go ahead. | 18:31 |
| - | Since we're in Tennessee and it's in our community. | 18:36 |
| The church sponsoring art show for the church | 18:39 | |
| and I made an image of Sophia. | 18:42 | |
| A little image of her and put her in the art show. | 18:46 | |
| - | What did Sophia look like? | 18:49 |
| - | I can send you a photo. | 18:50 |
| - | I would love to see it, yes. | 18:51 |
| - | She just need olive cloth. | 18:53 |
| She looks like a little doll and she has curly hair | 18:55 | |
| and I embroidered Sophia across it. | 18:59 | |
| She's just tiny. | 19:01 | |
| About 6 inches tall. | 19:02 | |
| - | Wow. | 19:05 |
| - | And then I use, I came across a quote the other day. | 19:06 |
| One of Elizabeth Johnson's. | 19:11 | |
| A quote from her book that I put along with Sophia | 19:13 | |
| but I still have her. | 19:19 | |
| - | Oh I would love to, if you don't mind sending a picture. | 19:21 |
| I would love to have that. | 19:24 | |
| That is great. | 19:25 | |
| Well I'm curious when you read these books about goddess, | 19:26 | |
| did you conclude that you were worshiping a goddess? | 19:27 | |
| What did you decide? | 19:31 | |
| - | No, not really no. | 19:31 |
| - | What did you understand about Sophia? | 19:36 |
| Who was Sophia for you? | 19:38 | |
| - | Wisdom. | 19:41 |
| The feminine of the divine. | 19:42 | |
| - | Yes, yeah, yep. | 19:47 |
| - | It was fun to think that man thinking that it was image | 19:51 |
| that we were worshiping. | 19:54 | |
| We really enjoyed that. | 19:56 | |
| - | Did you? | 19:57 |
| Why did you enjoy that? | 19:58 | |
| What did you enjoy? | 20:01 | |
| - | It was so wrong. | 20:02 |
| (both laughing) | 20:03 | |
| And in the Presbyterian church we started Voices of Sophia. | 20:05 | |
| - | I wanted to ask you about that. | 20:10 |
| Were you involved in starting Voices of Sophia? | 20:11 | |
| - | Yes, uh-huh. | 20:15 |
| - | Oh please tell me about that. | 20:16 |
| I've interviewed Sylvia Thorson-Smith. | 20:18 | |
| - | I went to the first meeting. | 20:19 |
| It was very quiet but there must have been, | 20:21 | |
| I know there were three of us | 20:31 | |
| that went to the very first gathering. | 20:34 | |
| There might have been four, six. | 20:38 | |
| We'd all have to talk and write it down. | 20:40 | |
| But did go to the first and I just remember | 20:43 | |
| how painful it was choosing our name. | 20:47 | |
| There's pairs that were schedule. | 20:52 | |
| Because some people said well you're confronting | 20:54 | |
| the church more and more. | 20:57 | |
| Then people have already said we're worshiping Sophia | 20:59 | |
| and now you wanna name us Voices of Sophia. | 21:02 | |
| And we all thought we had earned the right for that name. | 21:05 | |
| - | That's interesting say some more. | 21:10 |
| What do you mean you had earned the right to that name? | 21:11 | |
| - | We had been accused of Sophia worshiping. | 21:14 |
| We justified at General Assembly. | 21:17 | |
| The men just couldn't get it and we were Voices of Sophia. | 21:19 | |
| Voices of Wisdom, Voices of a feminine divine | 21:24 | |
| and we'd earned that right. | 21:27 | |
| - | And tell me about I mean this is | 21:32 |
| a very interesting movement. | 21:34 | |
| What are some of your memories of Voices of Sophia? | 21:37 | |
| - | One of the first memories I remember | 21:48 |
| that our first gathering of trying to decide our name | 21:49 | |
| and how painful that was to come to a consensus. | 21:53 | |
| Another piece was a beautiful night with the moon, | 21:58 | |
| full moon and someone was playing a flute | 22:04 | |
| and we were outside. | 22:09 | |
| Just walking, following the flute in a big parade. | 22:12 | |
| It was a wonderful feeling. | 22:17 | |
| - | Oh yes. | 22:20 |
| - | The freedom and the celebration of women. | 22:22 |
| - | Yeah, oh that is wonderful. | 22:25 |
| So you were involved in Voices of Sophia. | 22:30 | |
| This women's theological book group | 22:33 | |
| that you said is still meeting? | 22:35 | |
| - | Uh-huh. | 22:37 |
| - | How many women are in it? | 22:38 |
| - | Of the original group, one person has died. | 22:42 |
| Well we have nine people now | 22:50 | |
| and I think just one person has died in the group. | 22:52 | |
| - | And all of these nine women have been part of it | 23:00 |
| for years now? | 23:04 | |
| - | Yeah and one person moved away for a year | 23:05 |
| but when she came back she was immediately in the group. | 23:08 | |
| I had to not be part of the group for awhile | 23:11 | |
| 'cause I had to care for my mother for some years, | 23:13 | |
| and I just couldn't go. | 23:18 | |
| But we're all back together right now. | 23:20 | |
| - | Wow, you know there just aren't that many groups | 23:23 |
| that stay together that long. | 23:26 | |
| What is it about this group that keeps you together? | 23:28 | |
| - | Well I think the support, | 23:32 |
| our reading together. | 23:35 | |
| The commonality that we've come to. | 23:36 | |
| Let me see, we all go to the same church now | 23:42 | |
| except two that don't now | 23:46 | |
| 'cause they live in Albuquerque. | 23:50 | |
| - | Is it all Presbyterian women? | 23:54 |
| - | Yes, well the one person in Albuquerque. | 23:56 |
| Her caregiver drives her over | 24:00 | |
| - | Oh wow. | |
| - | From Albuquerque to the group. | 24:04 |
| And Sarah whose caregiver is not Presbyterian | 24:06 | |
| but is really a delight to have her | 24:10 | |
| because she's probably in her late 30s. | 24:11 | |
| And we're all approaching | 24:16 | |
| I think we're probably all 80 or over | 24:20 | |
| and it's quite a delight to have Sarah in our group. | 24:23 | |
| - | That's wonderful. | 24:28 |
| And she comes because she's the caregiver | 24:29 | |
| but obviously she's part of your group now | 24:33 | |
| and contributes. | 24:35 | |
| - | She reads the book and shares in the conversations. | 24:36 |
| - | That is great. | 24:41 |
| You also mentioned you formed a group | 24:43 | |
| called The Women Who Came. | 24:46 | |
| An ongoing women's worship group. | 24:48 | |
| I would love to hear more about that. | 24:51 | |
| - | We were able to plan our own liturgy for that | 24:55 |
| and this was not just Presbyterian. | 24:59 | |
| It was United Church of Christ women and Presbyterian. | 25:02 | |
| Probably those two churches were the most represented | 25:11 | |
| and we would have at times up to 15 or 20 women. | 25:15 | |
| And we planned our liturgy, our conversation. | 25:20 | |
| Some women had never put together a worship experience | 25:25 | |
| or did something different like a worship center | 25:31 | |
| or they just had never down any of that. | 25:35 | |
| That some of the women in our group | 25:38 | |
| were very head women. | 25:40 | |
| They're in their heads, not in their hearts | 25:43 | |
| as much as they would like to be. | 25:45 | |
| So it was a very good experience. | 25:47 | |
| - | And this was related to Re-Imagining? | 25:51 |
| - | Yes, I think it was a total outcome of that. | 25:56 |
| Trying to recreate the experience for ourselves | 25:58 | |
| because we loved the experience. | 26:03 | |
| And did you use Re-Imagining materials | 26:05 | |
| or was it the materials you created or what? | 26:08 | |
| - | Materials that we created. | 26:11 |
| We very often used the music. | 26:13 | |
| The music from Re-Imagining was such a joy | 26:16 | |
| and it really spoke to our souls and we used that music. | 26:22 | |
| And that was one of the hardest things to recreate so | 26:27 | |
| because you need to have a musician that also feels it. | 26:31 | |
| When we first came back from Re-Imagining. | 26:36 | |
| We were forced in, I think sadly churches. | 26:39 | |
| Pretty progressive but for years since the 70s. | 26:44 | |
| There had been what they called their contemporary worship, | 26:49 | |
| and people had planned the liturgy in that worship service | 26:54 | |
| by themselves for years. | 26:58 | |
| And have their own music group and they worked. | 27:01 | |
| It was just an excellent place to come back | 27:04 | |
| and we brought in the drum. | 27:07 | |
| We used the music from Re-Imagining | 27:09 | |
| and then Jackie 'cause it was such a new experience | 27:12 | |
| for her, spoke that day. | 27:15 | |
| So we immediately shared with our congregation | 27:16 | |
| what we had experienced at Re-Imagining. | 27:20 | |
| So the church wasn't taken off guard | 27:23 | |
| by what they were hearing from elsewhere. | 27:25 | |
| - | Oh so the Re-Imagining music and other materials | 27:28 |
| were used in the contemporary worship | 27:31 | |
| at the Presbyterian church in Santa Fe? | 27:34 | |
| - | Yes, uh-huh. | 27:36 |
| - | Okay. | |
| - | We brought in a very large Indian drum. | 27:38 |
| My big drum. | 27:41 | |
| - | Oh wow and was this like a one time thing | 27:43 |
| or was this a continuing? | 27:46 | |
| - | I think that we did one presentation at that time | 27:48 |
| and had a great response. | 27:53 | |
| Such a positive response. | 27:54 | |
| - | But then do you recall about how long the women's | 27:58 |
| worship group lasted that you're talking about? | 28:02 | |
| - | I would say a couple years. | 28:05 |
| And one time, we had one of the women who attended. | 28:09 | |
| Her husband I think decided, | 28:14 | |
| he's a professor of theology somewhere. | 28:15 | |
| I think he decided that he needed to come | 28:18 | |
| and check us out and (laughing). | 28:20 | |
| So he came with Marilyn and it really stood out to me | 28:24 | |
| what happens to a Women's group when a man comes in. | 28:30 | |
| - | Oh tell me, what happened? | 28:34 |
| - | Just all of a sudden everybody just closes up. | 28:36 |
| All of a sudden it's like we were on guard. | 28:44 | |
| What's going on here? | 28:47 | |
| That is the very firm memory | 28:51 | |
| and (laughing) I see that happen at times. | 28:54 | |
| Well I see that often. | 28:58 | |
| Whether it be on the session or | 29:01 | |
| in a study group or whatever. | 29:02 | |
| - | That when a man is involved or men are involved. | 29:06 |
| It kind of shuts it down a little bit or a lot? | 29:10 | |
| - | Yeah. | 29:13 |
| - | Now if I understood you correctly. | 29:14 |
| Did you see that he was coming to check you out. | 29:16 | |
| So you assumed he was kind of coming | 29:19 | |
| to judge or critique you is that the way. | 29:20 | |
| - | Oh I think so, he had to find out | 29:23 |
| what Marilyn was attending and what we were doing. | 29:24 | |
| Sort of that same old dealing | 29:28 | |
| that we had at General Assembly. | 29:31 | |
| They didn't trust what we were up to. | 29:33 | |
| - | Yeah and I'm curious was there any fall out from that? | 29:36 |
| Any response from him or? | 29:40 | |
| - | No. | 29:43 |
| - | And the group continued I assumed. | 29:44 |
| - | He only came once. | 29:46 |
| - | And then you mentioned that you had a Re-Imagining | 29:52 |
| gathering in Santa Fe. | 29:54 | |
| What do you remember about that? | 29:56 | |
| - | It was wonderful. | 30:01 |
| Again I was so heavily involved in habitat | 30:05 | |
| and in the families of Tibet and then I was chair | 30:07 | |
| of this group that decided to put on this Re-Imagining. | 30:11 | |
| But Ghost Ranch Santa Fe which is the conference ground | 30:14 | |
| was in existence at that time and we got a space there. | 30:17 | |
| And it was really just a small room | 30:23 | |
| and we had to limit it to 81 people. | 30:25 | |
| And then we had a waiting list and when anyone dropped out. | 30:32 | |
| I remember the night before it happened. | 30:36 | |
| Someone dropped out and so we called the next person | 30:39 | |
| on the waiting list and they were there the next morning. | 30:42 | |
| - | Oh wow. | 30:45 |
| - | And people came from all over New Mexico. | 30:47 |
| - | Really? | 30:50 |
| - | And how we settled it was a small room for 81 people | 30:51 |
| but we wanted people to experience getting to know | 30:55 | |
| a small group so we put TV trays | 30:59 | |
| and decorate the little TV trays. | 31:03 | |
| And then we put four or five people | 31:06 | |
| in chairs around the TV trays. | 31:07 | |
| So you had a group with whom you could respond | 31:11 | |
| to what was going on in the presentation. | 31:14 | |
| - | Oh, that's great like the round tables at Re-Imagining. | 31:18 |
| - | Yes, we could really, at Re-Imagining sometimes. | 31:20 |
| I couldn't hear. | 31:23 | |
| - | Yes, yes, yes. | 31:24 |
| - | And I really considered this tiny room | 31:26 |
| when I was sitting there. | 31:28 | |
| We could put our heads together. | 31:29 | |
| We could (laughing) one another. | 31:30 | |
| - | And I'm curious did you mostly use resources | 31:33 |
| from Re-Imagining? | 31:35 | |
| Did you create new ones? | 31:36 | |
| What did you do there? | 31:38 | |
| - | We used the music from Re-Imagining | 31:39 |
| and so that was good but we didn't have the music leadership | 31:43 | |
| that would have been good. | 31:49 | |
| And Chris from United Seminary. | 31:52 | |
| We asked Chris, I can't remember. | 31:56 | |
| - | Chris Smith perhaps? | 31:57 |
| - | Chris what? | 31:59 |
| - | Chris Smith, Christie Smith from United. | 32:00 |
| - | Yes, Chris Smith came and she did the presentation. | 32:03 |
| - | Oh great. | 32:08 |
| - | But you know, women can do this to one another. | 32:11 |
| We do it to one another which makes me so sad. | 32:17 | |
| This group of women that been | 32:21 | |
| through Re-Imagining together. | 32:22 | |
| We're the ones that planned this and put it on | 32:25 | |
| and we ask Chris from the seminary, United Seminary | 32:29 | |
| and there were people from the United Church in Santa Fe. | 32:34 | |
| It wasn't just Presbyterian that planned it | 32:40 | |
| but I got a call from our minister at the time. | 32:42 | |
| Who was a woman and was very upset with me | 32:48 | |
| because I didn't tell her. | 32:52 | |
| Chris was coming to town that I didn't. | 32:55 | |
| I don't know permission. | 32:59 | |
| We upset her terribly with this whole conference | 33:02 | |
| - | Because you hadn't gotten her permission | 33:07 |
| is what you understood? | 33:10 | |
| - | Her permission and her input that we had just done it | 33:13 |
| as a group of women and all of a sudden I felt weak to this, | 33:19 | |
| to one another because there's a woman judging us | 33:25 | |
| for doing what we're doing. | 33:28 | |
| - | Yes, yeah. | 33:30 |
| Was that the only the reaction you got to the Re-Imagining | 33:34 | |
| gathering you had? | 33:38 | |
| - | Oh no, we had Catholic people that came. | 33:40 |
| I know the little people I was at. | 33:46 | |
| There was a Catholic couple there. | 33:47 | |
| We had from all different churches. | 33:50 | |
| We had people come from southern New Mexico, | 33:52 | |
| from northern New Mexico. | 33:55 | |
| It was a wonderful response. | 33:59 | |
| - | And I assume not all of them could have gone | 34:02 |
| to the Re-Imagining in the twin cities right? | 34:04 | |
| - | That's why we wanted to do it here. | 34:07 |
| - | I see to give them that experience. | 34:11 |
| - | Yeah, now if I haven't been so tired. | 34:14 |
| We would have continued doing that | 34:16 | |
| but my life became more complicated | 34:19 | |
| with caring for my mother. | 34:21 | |
| And I just simply couldn't do everything I'd been doing. | 34:23 | |
| - | Sure and I know the exact date doesn't really matter. | 34:27 |
| I'm just wondering was this shortly | 34:31 | |
| after the original '93 conference, do you think | 34:33 | |
| or was it several years down the line? | 34:36 | |
| - | It probably was several years down the line. | 34:39 |
| I was just talking to Raymond about that before you called | 34:41 | |
| and I simply can not hold back | 34:44 | |
| but I have looked and see. | 34:47 | |
| - | If it's not too much trouble that would be great | 34:50 |
| but that's okay too. | 34:52 | |
| But what's important is that it happened. | 34:53 | |
| That you remember what it was like. | 34:55 | |
| - | It was a delightful experience. | 34:59 |
| We used colors and fabrics and ribbons | 35:01 | |
| and Chris spoke and we had response groups. | 35:06 | |
| And it was wonderful and the other thing. | 35:10 | |
| The other response from the church was that actually | 35:15 | |
| the day before, the program director at the Ghost Ranch. | 35:20 | |
| They called me and said, so and so was told | 35:27 | |
| from first pres that you have more people | 35:32 | |
| than what the room that you've planned on. | 35:35 | |
| So they said that they have moved your conference | 35:39 | |
| over to the church. | 35:43 | |
| - | Oh really? | 35:44 |
| - | And I said absolutely not (laughing). | 35:45 |
| - | Yes, wow. | 35:49 |
| - | We are having conference where we have planned it. | 35:52 |
| It is prepared, it will be fine. | 35:55 | |
| - | Wow, so just so I understand. | 35:59 |
| Did Ghost Ranch call the church and tell them? | 36:01 | |
| How did the church ever get involved in that? | 36:04 | |
| - | We just have a very close relationship | 36:08 |
| between the church and Ghost Ranch Santa Fe. | 36:10 | |
| - | I see. | 36:13 |
| - | And the program director knew the woman very well | 36:13 |
| that we're planning the conference. | 36:18 | |
| So he received this call from the church | 36:19 | |
| saying that and so Jim called me and I said. | 36:23 | |
| We're meeting at Ghost Ranch Santa Fe. | 36:27 | |
| We didn't want it to be in the church. | 36:30 | |
| Specifically didn't want it to be in the church. | 36:34 | |
| - | And why is that? | 36:37 |
| - | Well we want people to have the freedom. | 36:39 |
| - | The freedom to? | 36:44 |
| - | The freedom to experience. | 36:47 |
| - | Yeah and you've feel as if the church wouldn't have. | 36:48 |
| - | It would have been limited and the structure | 36:51 |
| and the physical structure as well as these structure. | 36:55 | |
| The governing structure. | 37:00 | |
| That wasn't our intent to have it there. | 37:01 | |
| - | Yeah, yeah that makes sense. | 37:04 |
| Okay that's good. | 37:08 | |
| Betty how would you having all these experiences, | 37:11 | |
| how would you define Re-Imagining? | 37:13 | |
| - | I still go back to it's Miriam dancing. | 37:18 |
| I still go back to that image of women | 37:25 | |
| with strong leadership. | 37:29 | |
| With music and dance, open ness. | 37:33 | |
| I'm not sure I have the real understanding of Midrash | 37:39 | |
| but I always feel like that they in Midrash. | 37:43 | |
| They allow people to re-enter earth | 37:47 | |
| and reinvent to understand the depth of meaning | 37:51 | |
| and I think so often orthodox | 37:57 | |
| in our churches just cut that all off. | 38:00 | |
| If anyone can re-invent it, the women can. | 38:04 | |
| - | That is really interesting. | 38:09 |
| That's an interesting image of Midrash. | 38:10 | |
| So what do you see Re-Imagining reinterpreting? | 38:12 | |
| - | How you worship. | 38:21 |
| How you sing. | 38:23 | |
| How you express your faith. | 38:29 | |
| - | That's great. | 38:40 |
| - | Once you come to understand your faith to be. | 38:41 |
| - | Yeah, yeah and Betty what aspects of Re-Imagining | 38:43 |
| were most significant to you and why? | 38:48 | |
| - | Well I think that Ghost Ranch had two conference | 38:52 |
| and there's one in Santa Fe which is closed now. | 38:58 | |
| But one that's in Evoque, northern New Mexico | 39:01 | |
| and I was thinking at comparing a conference | 39:05 | |
| I went to there which had excellent leaders. | 39:09 | |
| But you know what I missed the most. | 39:14 | |
| There wasn't the music. | 39:17 | |
| There was no music and somehow in our Christian tradition | 39:20 | |
| and then I'm assuming the Jewish tradition. | 39:26 | |
| There is music. | 39:30 | |
| Where our soul can express. | 39:34 | |
| - | Oh that's beautiful. | 39:38 |
| Did your involvement in Re-Imagining change your perspective | 39:42 | |
| on feminist theology? | 39:46 | |
| Well I guess from what you said, | 39:47 | |
| it kind of introduce you to it. | 39:48 | |
| - | It introduce me to it. | 39:49 |
| It reminded me of feminism | 39:55 | |
| and it brought me back to that place. | 39:57 | |
| But also then of the readings | 39:59 | |
| that we've done over the years. | 40:02 | |
| In fact, theology, it directed us into that area | 40:05 | |
| of really looking at it. | 40:12 | |
| We were talking the other day. | 40:15 | |
| We think we need to go back now | 40:16 | |
| because we need to start reading all of that over again. | 40:18 | |
| (both laughing) | 40:22 | |
| - | And just to make sure I'm clear. | 40:24 |
| What are you thinking of? | 40:25 | |
| What needs to be read again? | 40:27 | |
| - | We should go back and read the first book | 40:31 |
| and see how we feel about that. | 40:33 | |
| I would like to go back and read Elizabeth Johnson's, | 40:35 | |
| I forgot the name of her book. | 40:39 | |
| - | She who is? | 40:41 |
| - | Yes, I just felt like I danced through that book. | 40:43 |
| I loved that book. | 40:47 | |
| - | This is your book club that's talking about this? | 40:49 |
| - | Uh-huh. | 40:53 |
| - | Yeah, I love it. | 40:54 |
| I mean you danced through that book. | 40:57 | |
| Tell me more about that. | 41:00 | |
| - | I have to read it again. | 41:02 |
| (both laughing) | 41:03 | |
| It was glorious. | 41:07 | |
| - | Yeah, yeah oh that's wonderful. | 41:09 |
| Did your involvement in Re-Imagining | 41:13 | |
| change your perspective on the church? | 41:14 | |
| - | Well it certainly did. | 41:25 |
| Women are able but also feel like | 41:27 | |
| it continues to be very difficult | 41:29 | |
| for women to be able speak out and to be heard. | 41:34 | |
| Sometimes, I was trying to think when was I on session? | 41:41 | |
| I was on session several years after that. | 41:48 | |
| I'm probably the first woman to sign, | 41:51 | |
| given the privilege of signing checks. | 41:55 | |
| - | Really? | 41:58 |
| - | Be a signer of checks at the church | 41:58 |
| and that was quite a discussion. | 42:00 | |
| (Betty laughing) | 42:04 | |
| - | Really? | 42:05 |
| Tell me about this. | 42:05 | |
| What was the discussion about? | 42:06 | |
| - | Well they've just never had a woman do that before. | 42:08 |
| - | Really? | 42:12 |
| - | And they hadn't had a woman clerk before. | 42:13 |
| - | And I'm just curious. | 42:18 |
| What kinds of things did they say? | 42:19 | |
| - | Well they didn't say anything to me but I saw it. | 42:22 |
| I felt the conversations going on around me (laughing). | 42:29 | |
| - | Really? | 42:32 |
| - | And also noticed that on a session, | 42:34 |
| I organize the women because it seemed like the power | 42:44 | |
| and I sit at one end of the table. | 42:47 | |
| So I talked to the women and I said, | 42:50 | |
| we are not sitting together, let's spread ourselves out | 42:54 | |
| and I will take this one man that always talk so much. | 42:57 | |
| I am taking him on. | 43:04 | |
| I'm gonna sit next to him | 43:05 | |
| and we just sprinkle ourselves around | 43:07 | |
| and felt like we began to have a little bit more voice. | 43:10 | |
| - | You were strategic. | 43:14 |
| - | You have to be. | 43:16 |
| - | Now just to clarify, was this the church in Santa Fe? | 43:18 |
| - | Yes. | 43:22 |
| - | Oh it was 'cause I got the impression from what you said | 43:23 |
| it was a pretty progressive church. | 43:25 | |
| - | It is but yeah. | 43:27 |
| (both laughing) | 43:31 | |
| Santa Fe has the CEOs come and retire here. | 43:34 | |
| - | Oh I see. | 43:39 |
| - | So it's a very changing church. | 43:41 |
| It has continued to be progressive, not totally. | 43:44 | |
| But it's continued to be. | 43:50 | |
| There's always another CEO that's moved in | 43:54 | |
| that has a secretary. | 43:56 | |
| - | I see, yep. | 44:01 |
| And you'll sit next to him. | 44:05 | |
| - | That's what I would do. | 44:07 |
| I would sit next to him. | 44:08 | |
| He never could remember my name so I started, | 44:09 | |
| I can't even remember his real name now. | 44:12 | |
| I started calling him Chucky boy. | 44:14 | |
| - | To his face? | 44:18 |
| - | Uh-huh. | 44:19 |
| - | Oh really? | 44:20 |
| - | Because he could never remember my name | 44:21 |
| and so I said, "Chucky boy, my name's Betty." | 44:24 | |
| It was really a fun name for him so he really liked it. | 44:27 | |
| - | Really? | 44:32 |
| Oh my goodness so you two established | 44:35 | |
| a kind of relationship? | 44:36 | |
| - | Yes, uh-huh. | 44:38 |
| - | A positive one? | 44:39 |
| - | We had a working relationship. | 44:41 |
| Yeah, a good one. | 44:43 | |
| - | Good, wow. | 44:44 |
| That's pretty impressive. | 44:46 | |
| (both laughing) | 44:48 | |
| Well Betty looking back what do you think | 44:50 | |
| is the greatest legacy of the Re-Imagining community? | 44:52 | |
| - | I'd start to say joy. | 45:04 |
| I think the feeling that women supporting one another | 45:06 | |
| across this country. | 45:12 | |
| We've lost that 'cause voice quit | 45:15 | |
| and Re-Imagining quit and so that joy | 45:18 | |
| that we use to experience of being together | 45:27 | |
| and celebrating disappeared. | 45:29 | |
| And then it just gradually in a way disappeared locally. | 45:33 | |
| The energy begin to drain out which was, | 45:38 | |
| and as I said my life became | 45:42 | |
| very much involved in something else | 45:44 | |
| and I just couldn't take it on anymore. | 45:45 | |
| But I just feel there's a real need for that. | 45:48 | |
| I know at times I go on internet search. | 45:53 | |
| Are there any good women's conferences going on. | 45:57 | |
| Any good conference there's gonna be music | 46:01 | |
| and good stimulating theology and I haven't found it. | 46:04 | |
| - | Yeah, yeah so I guess it kind of brings me to | 46:14 |
| what do you think Re-Imagining means today? | 46:20 | |
| I mean you're already starting to say this | 46:23 | |
| but what needs to be Re-Imagined? | 46:25 | |
| What still needs to be done? | 46:26 | |
| - | Women coming together | 46:31 |
| and remembering who they're called to be. | 46:34 | |
| - | You said other than that group | 46:40 |
| that you're still part of, | 46:41 | |
| you feel like that's not really happening now. | 46:42 | |
| - | Correct. | 46:45 |
| - | Yeah, yeah. | |
| - | And I know people's life change and I'm trying to think | 46:49 |
| is it because I had other responsibilities. | 46:52 | |
| Life did change and then change would go open a door again | 46:57 | |
| that seemed closed. | 47:03 | |
| I don't know. | 47:06 | |
| And there use to be this information coming from | 47:10 | |
| the year of the woman with international. | 47:16 | |
| You have to help me 'cause you're in this now | 47:24 | |
| and I've forgotten all about it. | 47:26 | |
| - | Oh the ecumenical decade in solidarity of women? | 47:28 |
| Yes, got ya, yes. | 47:30 | |
| - | And the resources that came out that could be used | 47:32 |
| for some of those resources. | 47:35 | |
| That's not anymore. | 47:39 | |
| Where are the resources? | 47:41 | |
| - | Right well actually that kind of brings me | 47:43 |
| to me last question which is, | 47:46 | |
| as you know the Re-Imagining group has reincorporated | 47:49 | |
| and we are working on a website. | 47:53 | |
| Which will partly have archives material | 47:56 | |
| but also resources. | 47:59 | |
| And I'm wondering if you had any ideas | 48:00 | |
| about what to include in there | 48:03 | |
| and who would benefit from it. | 48:06 | |
| Any ideas you have. | 48:08 | |
| What are you looking for? | 48:11 | |
| You mentioned conferences maybe? | 48:12 | |
| - | Conferences because if you can't, | 48:15 |
| right now we feel think you call it spiritual growth | 48:18 | |
| and excitement in our own Santa Fe church. | 48:27 | |
| And so to find some place to go to share music of the soul | 48:32 | |
| and to sing and to share some very deep, provocative | 48:40 | |
| speaking would be wonderful. | 48:48 | |
| - | Yeah, yes, yes. | 48:51 |
| - | It sort of refresh the soul. | 48:55 |
| - | Refresh the soul. | 48:57 |
| Yes that's a good way to put it. | 48:58 | |
| Betty, this has been wonderful, delightful. | 49:00 | |
| I'm wondering if there's anything that you wanna add | 49:03 | |
| before we end? | 49:06 | |
| - | I don't think so, I've talked about the book group, | 49:09 |
| party gathering and the Re-Imagining | 49:14 | |
| and Voices of Sophia and I think not. | 49:17 | |
| - | Oh well thank you. | 49:25 |
| I'm gonna turn off the recording now | 49:26 | |
| so just give me one second to do that. | 49:29 |