| - |
So you, |
0:03
|
| - |
So I came here and eventually finished. |
0:04
|
|
And immediately really became soul friends with the only |
0:06
|
|
African-American person as well who had come. |
0:11
|
|
And he decided to establish his black ministries |
0:15
|
|
program way back then to give biblical |
0:18
|
|
and theological education to those who had had no access. |
0:21
|
|
A certificate program. |
0:24
|
| - |
Who was this MT? |
0:26
|
| - |
Thomas White, marvelous, marvelous, |
0:27
|
|
and we became soul friends, the only woman, |
0:30
|
|
the only black and here we were. |
0:32
|
|
And he did that and I early on then said, |
0:37
|
|
we gotta to do something for women. |
0:39
|
|
So we started with bringing in Fierenza, |
0:41
|
|
and Elizabeth Bettenhousen, two wild women. |
0:47
|
| - |
Yes |
0:50
|
|
to just give us sessions. |
0:51
|
|
You know, I think it was a weekend of talks. |
0:53
|
|
And they packed the house. |
0:55
|
|
And at the same time I started a women church component |
0:58
|
|
that anybody who wants to be a part of that, |
1:02
|
|
you know, so that lasted for about five years. |
1:04
|
|
But then I began to say it shouldn't be |
1:06
|
|
a one shot thing with Fierenza in all. |
1:09
|
|
Let me start this Women Were in the Church |
1:12
|
|
and that's where we had ten years of incredible, |
1:13
|
|
the best theologians, scholars, artists, theater, |
1:17
|
|
whatever you can do that's, you know. |
1:22
|
|
And when it turned out, |
1:25
|
|
that the year that we celebrated, |
1:26
|
|
was it the 500th anniversary of the country, |
1:30
|
|
was it 500, I forget. |
1:33
|
| - |
It's 200, 1976, no? |
1:35
|
| - |
500 years, we're not? |
1:37
|
|
76, yeah, 1996. |
1:39
|
| - |
Right right. |
1:42
|
| - |
Was it 500th? |
1:43
|
|
I said the year that, |
1:44
|
|
we came to the Native Americans America, something. |
1:47
|
| - |
Yes |
1:51
|
| - |
And I'd invited |
|
| - |
I'd already been doing for two or three years |
1:53
|
|
work with a number of different Native American women. |
1:55
|
|
And doing rituals and we were doing all sorts. |
1:58
|
|
So I invited, I think a total of about 15 |
2:01
|
|
from around the country. |
2:03
|
|
I said could you come a day early. |
2:04
|
|
And they came a day early, Thursday. |
2:06
|
|
This would be Friday, Saturday. |
2:08
|
|
And we met and I said okay, the weekend is yours. |
2:10
|
| - |
Oh. |
2:14
|
| - |
Well what do you want us to do? |
2:15
|
|
I said I don't know you tell me. |
2:17
|
|
It's your weekend, this is celebrating |
2:19
|
|
your country that we came to, it's yours. |
2:22
|
|
They said, they were stunned, |
2:25
|
|
and some of these were public, |
2:27
|
|
they were published people, performers, you know. |
2:28
|
|
They said, we've never done this. |
2:31
|
|
And also in our own tribes, the women aren't, |
2:34
|
|
you know, they're important to the rituals, |
2:38
|
|
but they're not, and they got into it. |
2:39
|
|
Let me tell you, this was a weekend. |
2:41
|
|
It was awesome. |
2:45
|
|
And we made the front page of the Hartford Courant |
2:48
|
|
with a big, you know, it was dances and stuff. |
2:51
|
|
It was truly wonderful. |
2:53
|
| - |
Oh it sounds phenomenal. |
|
|
And so after that, and about that time, |
2:56
|
|
it was, I said we need, people were asking for more. |
3:00
|
|
One weekend a month you know, we need some continuity. |
3:04
|
|
And I said, and there's a lot we're learning |
3:07
|
|
from all that we're doing, and here I am |
3:10
|
|
in an educational institution and I would like |
3:12
|
|
to start something that would be like a program. |
3:15
|
|
And that's where women's, women were to the church, |
3:18
|
|
This is the women's leadership institute. |
3:22
|
|
And it's subtitle is equally important. |
3:25
|
|
A program in applied spirituality. |
3:27
|
|
So that as you go through whatever you learn, |
3:30
|
|
as you're coming out, it needs, |
3:33
|
|
you need to have a project or something you do |
3:35
|
|
and share and show what you've learned. |
3:38
|
|
What are the underlying feminist principles and why. |
3:40
|
|
What kind of systemic shift, you know. |
3:44
|
|
And so that's now into it's 20th year in the fall. |
3:47
|
|
We have over 530 incredible more than, graduates. |
3:52
|
|
Some have done some huge things. |
3:57
|
|
I don't know, the very first year, |
3:59
|
|
the prayer shawl ministry has gone |
4:03
|
|
around the world you know. |
4:05
|
| - |
Yes. |
4:07
|
| - |
It started here. |
4:07
|
|
That was the first year |
4:08
|
| - |
Did it really? |
|
|
Well two women said, let's just, |
4:10
|
|
you know, that followed after. |
4:12
|
|
The Ray of Light farm in East Haddam |
4:15
|
|
which is a rescue farm for, |
4:18
|
|
it began for Premarin mares and their fowls |
4:22
|
|
that are just cast off once they get the urine |
4:25
|
|
to make the medicine that the women need. |
4:27
|
|
They took, so they have, she has this wonderful |
4:32
|
|
rescue farm, that was another. |
4:35
|
|
We have some just wonder, drumming circles |
4:37
|
|
around the state were started by one gal |
4:39
|
|
who used this as her masters project. |
4:42
|
|
So we had, you know, it was wonderful. |
4:47
|
|
They could take WI, the Women's Leadership Institute |
4:49
|
|
it was, it was an audit program. |
4:52
|
|
But you could take it for graduate credit. |
4:56
|
|
And you can get six graduate credit. |
4:58
|
|
But from the get go, I negotiated with the systems |
5:00
|
|
here to make sure that we could find a way |
5:03
|
|
to get undergraduate credit for those women. |
5:06
|
|
Who need our, discovering they wanna go back to school. |
5:08
|
|
And so through Charter Oak, which is the state thing, |
5:13
|
|
they can get six upper level undergraduate credits |
5:16
|
|
at no extra cost to transfer over. |
5:20
|
|
That's a big incentive and not only that |
5:24
|
|
everyone who graduates the program, |
5:26
|
|
we got a bonus and they never took this away. |
5:28
|
|
Which I think is amazing. |
5:30
|
|
If you finish the program, |
5:32
|
|
now within a year afterwards you can audit |
5:33
|
|
any course in the catalog if the professor lets you in. |
5:35
|
|
So, but for those who are going for baccalaureate credit |
5:39
|
|
we got that accredited, that if you audit a course |
5:43
|
|
in that graduate level you'll get another |
5:46
|
|
three upper level, that's nine upper level |
5:48
|
|
baccalaureate credits, so I fought for that. |
5:51
|
|
And came close to almost losing it. |
5:54
|
|
But I said I'm putting my stake in the ground |
5:56
|
|
for that one because so many women gave of themselves, |
5:58
|
|
and now that they're ready to do something. |
6:02
|
|
It's a long way to the baccalaureate and you know, |
6:04
|
|
not like a masters so |
6:06
|
| - |
yes. |
|
|
So that's going along wonderfully. |
6:08
|
|
And then as we went along, there were women |
6:11
|
|
saying, gosh we learned all of this, |
6:14
|
|
what more can we do with this, don't you have? |
6:16
|
|
So I tried for quite a while to get another |
6:18
|
|
masters degree in that wasn't oriented toward |
6:22
|
|
ministry, ordained ministry, although we don't give that. |
6:28
|
|
We do do it cooperative with other schools. |
6:33
|
|
But nevertheless the courses are oriented |
6:36
|
|
to fit into that framework. |
6:38
|
| - |
Right. |
6:39
|
| - |
And then we also have, you know, |
6:40
|
|
to be theologians or whatever, it's all wonderful. |
6:42
|
|
But there was something missing for the women. |
6:46
|
|
And we had a spirituality track. |
6:48
|
|
But the way it's evaluated it's more academically |
6:52
|
|
oriented and it's 48 credits which is a lot you know. |
6:55
|
| - |
Yeah. |
6:59
|
| - |
And as the costs went up and up and up |
7:00
|
|
it became I felt, more and more difficult. |
7:02
|
|
And also it just felt, we have something here |
7:05
|
|
this big broiling mass of humanity, you know, |
7:08
|
|
that's leading us into, and then what |
7:14
|
|
turned the corner, what was the tipping point for, |
7:18
|
|
in my favor, was that sociologists, |
7:21
|
|
and we have a very significant sociology center. |
7:24
|
|
You know, we've contributed to many |
7:28
|
|
of the things out there that, you know, |
7:29
|
|
studies and all, and actually facilitated a number of them. |
7:32
|
|
But one of the studies done by others was |
7:36
|
|
how do you define yourself religiously. |
7:39
|
|
Any form that you have to fill out, |
7:43
|
|
the census form, or voting form, whatever. |
7:45
|
|
What is, if they asked it, what is your |
7:48
|
|
religious affiliation, and the greater number |
7:49
|
|
today now, it's come to that point, is none, N O N E. |
7:52
|
| - |
Yes. |
7:56
|
| - |
And I say, what an irony that the nun |
7:57
|
|
needs to do a degree for the nones. |
7:59
|
|
(laughing) |
8:01
|
|
How will I sell this one? |
8:03
|
|
(laughing) |
8:04
|
|
Bar none, so anyway, I designed this, |
8:06
|
|
and sort of, it didn't go anywhere. |
8:10
|
|
In fact it got turned down a couple of times. |
8:12
|
|
But you don't give up at the first. |
8:15
|
|
And then all of a sudden, |
8:17
|
|
this became, that you could begin to hear |
8:20
|
|
the words out there, the nuns, |
8:23
|
|
this seminary's closing, this seminary's closing. |
8:26
|
|
They're no longer hiring this many people. |
8:28
|
|
It became, actually with the speed of light, you know. |
8:32
|
|
It shifted, and then this whole category of seekers. |
8:36
|
|
And you know, and people out there, |
8:40
|
|
the persons who are retiring, even, |
8:42
|
|
and they wanna learn more, they wanna be something. |
8:44
|
|
And so I shifted. |
8:47
|
|
I say I wanna call it exactly what it is. |
8:50
|
|
And it's gonna be evaluated on exactly what it is. |
8:52
|
|
So most of the evaluative mechanisms |
8:55
|
|
are what are you gonna do with this degree? |
8:59
|
|
Like they're trying to, they're job oriented. |
9:01
|
|
People are trying to sell their degrees |
9:03
|
|
to the institutions that if you get this you can be hired. |
9:05
|
|
I said this ain't no job oriented degree. |
9:08
|
|
(laughing) |
9:10
|
|
And I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna evaluate it that way. |
9:12
|
|
And I'm not gonna sell it that way. |
9:14
|
|
It's not what you're gonna do with it. |
9:15
|
|
Who will you be with this degree? |
9:16
|
|
So whatever you do, you will do not only |
9:19
|
|
more authentically, and more informed, |
9:22
|
|
but in a sense you will be able to make a difference |
9:25
|
|
not only in your own life, but in the lives of others. |
9:28
|
|
So there's two components of how to |
9:31
|
|
just respond to what spirit is saying, |
9:34
|
|
or try to even identify if spirit's saying something to me |
9:37
|
|
what might it be and then what might it lead to, you know. |
9:40
|
|
And so, we had our ten year evaluation, |
9:44
|
|
and I said I want to talk to |
9:48
|
|
the accrediting team, if I might. |
9:50
|
|
And God bless them. |
9:52
|
|
I wanted one person, the whole team showed up. |
9:54
|
|
And I just made this pitch, you know, |
9:56
|
|
and we followed up after this, |
9:58
|
|
and the Dean was in my corner at this point. |
10:01
|
|
Because they said this is really seriously |
10:02
|
|
an important thing, we need to do this. |
10:05
|
| - |
Yeah. |
10:06
|
|
And we got approval from the Association |
10:07
|
|
of Theological Schools, which is huge. |
10:10
|
| - |
It is wonderful. |
10:12
|
| - |
It's the only, it's a second 36 credit masters degree. |
10:14
|
|
Second one okay. |
10:18
|
|
Started, we started it, but it just got, |
10:21
|
|
it was formally approved I think a year ago or something. |
10:24
|
|
And the second NEASC, New England's |
10:27
|
|
Association of Theologicals, they approved it, fully. |
10:29
|
|
And my assessment, I said I worked a year |
10:34
|
|
on how to assess this so we can do it with integrity. |
10:38
|
|
But also show you can't look at it |
10:41
|
|
the same way as you look at something else. |
10:43
|
|
And so the big thing, stumbling block, |
10:45
|
|
is when you say spirituality, and that's the subject, |
10:48
|
|
people are trying to, how do we evaluate |
10:51
|
|
one's growth in spirituality, you can't. |
10:54
|
|
And it's not right to start with, and it's impossible. |
10:58
|
|
So I said it's not about that. |
11:01
|
|
This is a two fold thing. |
11:02
|
|
It's an applied spirituality. |
11:05
|
|
Your personal spirituality is your personal thing. |
11:08
|
|
But what you do with it, becomes public. |
11:11
|
| - |
Yes. |
11:14
|
| - |
And so we're gonna assess the outcomes. |
11:15
|
|
You can assess outcomes by what did it lead to. |
11:19
|
|
So in order to graduate, you have to do a project |
11:21
|
|
you have to do a project |
11:25
|
|
in applied spirituality, so it's very simple. |
11:27
|
|
You know, you lead them to say, |
11:30
|
|
what in you has changed? |
11:33
|
|
And why has it changed? |
11:36
|
|
There's a shifting consciousness. |
11:38
|
|
Say you learned, and you can do it very small. |
11:39
|
|
What's different about you, your thinking, |
11:41
|
|
your perception, whatever. |
11:44
|
|
The shifting consciousness. |
11:46
|
|
And what are you gonna about that. |
11:48
|
|
What is one thing you could do to apply that shift. |
11:49
|
|
And if you apply it in a way that might actually |
11:53
|
|
instigate a shift in someone else, or a group. |
11:56
|
|
That's the core of it. |
11:59
|
|
And how easily these students come in and get it. |
12:03
|
|
They get, I thought I'd have to teach the whole, |
12:07
|
|
orienting course, ten sessions. |
12:10
|
|
They got it in session one. |
12:11
|
|
So we can go deeper, oh yeah, we get this. |
12:13
|
|
Because that's where we are, you know. |
12:16
|
|
We're constantly dancing, we were always thinking |
12:18
|
|
differently than the status quo, |
12:21
|
|
now it's being honored, what are you |
12:23
|
|
thinking that's different, the status quo. |
12:26
|
|
Name it. |
12:28
|
|
Identify it. |
12:29
|
|
And then what can you do about it |
12:31
|
|
within the situation you are in. |
12:32
|
|
So it's not always we gotta tear down |
12:35
|
|
this thing to do that. |
12:37
|
|
It's like the quantum, the pain in the butt, |
12:38
|
|
or the disturbance within the system |
12:41
|
|
is heralding the future. |
12:44
|
|
You start there and you work wherever you're at. |
12:46
|
|
And so it has just been wonderful. |
12:49
|
|
It's been so easy to assess really. |
12:53
|
|
And then one thing, one of the required things, |
12:56
|
|
I love this, |
12:59
|
|
that the Association of Theological Schools, |
13:00
|
|
cause every degree they have has this field work thing. |
13:02
|
|
You know field, it's like a kind of an apprenticeship |
13:05
|
|
or however you wanna work it. |
13:10
|
|
But there's a lot of leeway. |
13:11
|
|
So I had to have a course like that. |
13:12
|
|
And then, my gosh, if we're gonna charge them money |
13:14
|
|
for a course it better be meaningful, you know, |
13:16
|
| - |
Yeah. |
13:18
|
| - |
And we don't have a field, where are you, |
13:19
|
|
how are we apprentice with, and how? |
13:20
|
|
And then I said, and the Dean was wonderful, |
13:23
|
|
I said could I just sit with this for a semester, |
13:26
|
|
yeah think about it, I said cause this is big. |
13:28
|
|
I'm in the middle of teaching this course on, |
13:32
|
|
transformative spirituality, and we have two |
13:36
|
|
theologians, one who was a quantum theologian, |
13:40
|
|
the other one was theoretically is. |
13:42
|
|
But one is forward thinkin' and the other's |
13:44
|
|
more like, you know, Agutaynen. |
13:47
|
|
And I was saying something about, |
13:49
|
|
now with these two individuals, |
13:51
|
|
this individual's field of energy is, |
13:54
|
|
and then I said, Oh, my God, it hit me, afterwards. |
13:57
|
|
We're gonna, the field course is |
14:02
|
|
identify your own field of energy. |
14:04
|
|
What energizes you? |
14:08
|
| - |
Oh, wow. |
14:10
|
| - |
What really, it could be a bunch of things, |
14:10
|
|
but what's at the core of that? |
14:13
|
|
That becomes, and then we do some readings |
14:15
|
|
to deepen our understanding to say, stay faithful |
14:19
|
|
within that and be able to apply it. |
14:23
|
|
And then the evaluative things come out of that. |
14:25
|
|
They ran with this. |
14:29
|
|
The things that we're doing. |
14:30
|
|
It builds on who you are. |
14:31
|
|
That's when say stay with individual. |
14:33
|
|
Don't dump things in that don't fit. |
14:35
|
|
Then what do you need to know. |
14:38
|
|
And I'm telling you, it is, it's a wonderful degree idea. |
14:40
|
|
And this is what |
14:45
|
| - |
oh, yeah. |
|
|
Where we are doing now. |
14:46
|
|
And then not only did they get approved, okay, |
14:48
|
|
they're establishing a chair, |
14:52
|
|
in transformative leadership and spirituality, you know. |
14:56
|
|
So that will not disappear when I leave. |
15:01
|
| - |
Yes |
15:03
|
| - |
And that's why I'm still here. |
15:04
|
|
Theoretically I'm retired, but not. |
15:05
|
|
I'm rehired. |
15:07
|
|
You know, as a faculty associate. |
15:09
|
| - |
And that's gonna be the MT winter chair. |
15:11
|
| - |
Their, said that they're going to name it after me. |
15:12
|
|
And they'll probably announce it in the fall. |
15:16
|
|
But they're looking for sources of funding for this. |
15:18
|
|
It's not an easy thing you know. |
15:21
|
|
But we're gonna stick with it. |
15:24
|
|
But the implications of something like this |
15:27
|
|
I think are profound, because you know, |
15:31
|
|
you know as a woman, |
15:33
|
|
somehow, you train a woman, |
15:37
|
|
it's sort of like the mother of a family you know, |
15:40
|
|
and all the generations afterward come back |
15:43
|
|
to the great grand, I mean you're there, you're connected. |
15:46
|
|
You're a source of whatever you are, |
15:49
|
|
energy, support, love, stability. |
15:51
|
|
It's like this kind of degree, |
15:55
|
|
the individual that goes through it, |
15:58
|
|
affects a lot of people, you know. |
16:00
|
|
Just and especially, women if they take, |
16:05
|
|
and they will take the WLI, |
16:07
|
|
they've already got their start. |
16:09
|
|
And they've got networks, and then |
16:11
|
|
the networks can get networks. |
16:13
|
|
If you want to have a model for systemic |
16:14
|
|
shift and change it's something like this |
16:19
|
|
that gives responsibility and possibility |
16:22
|
|
and opportunity to individual women |
16:27
|
|
who are passionate already, you know. |
16:30
|
|
And say how can, so my whole thing is who are you, |
16:32
|
|
what do you wanna do, what turns you on? |
16:35
|
|
What excites you? |
16:38
|
|
Well let's see how that could work out. |
16:39
|
|
I can't imagine anything that couldn't work out. |
16:41
|
|
Do you know what I'm sayin' |
16:44
|
| - |
yes. |
|
|
Like I may not know how to do it. |
16:45
|
|
But I'm not doin' it, I'm just here |
16:47
|
|
giving you permission, validating, |
16:50
|
|
making sure that it has certain, |
16:52
|
|
meets certain, you know criteria that when you get done |
16:55
|
|
you're gonna feel good about this, and so are other people. |
16:57
|
|
So I think in many ways, it's a pioneering venture |
17:00
|
|
into the field of academia just like |
17:05
|
|
women are trying to get into certain roles, |
17:07
|
|
And you know in the institutional churches. |
17:10
|
|
Also in academia, we got in but we |
17:13
|
|
kept teaching the men's way. |
17:15
|
| - |
Yes. |
17:16
|
| - |
And their own thing. |
17:17
|
|
This is something significantly different. |
17:18
|
|
It's not limited to women, cause some of my guy friends |
17:21
|
|
are deeply, you know, into dreams and the Kabbala, |
17:24
|
|
and mysticism, so they can get it. |
17:28
|
|
But to us it just comes naturally, you know. |
17:30
|
|
And so this is what, where we're at with that. |
17:33
|
|
So the reimagining which is actually why you're sitting here |
17:36
|
|
talking to me |
17:40
|
|
(laughing) |
|
|
was part of this whole evolution of myself. |
17:42
|
|
And the word reimagining that you had as a conference, |
17:47
|
|
and I can't remember when I started using it. |
17:50
|
|
I know I did, and I don't know, |
17:55
|
|
remember when it was, probably, |
17:57
|
|
I don't know if it was after that conference. |
17:59
|
|
Because that became, not a happy, |
18:01
|
|
not a happy phrase afterwards which I was very sad about. |
18:06
|
| - |
Yes |
18:09
|
| - |
So maybe it was before then, I'm not sure, |
18:10
|
|
but I did a, you know, a program in Duke. |
18:12
|
|
And the biblical students and different people, |
18:18
|
|
and I was, I forget the details, |
18:20
|
|
but I was speaking on reimagining the word. |
18:22
|
|
Reimagining God and reimagining the word. |
18:25
|
|
But I did it using the canonical sources. |
18:28
|
| - |
Yes |
18:31
|
| - |
I said before we go out here |
18:32
|
|
you think reimagining is a wifty word |
18:34
|
|
outside the framework, I showed them, |
18:36
|
|
which was revelatory apparently. |
18:39
|
|
Which blew my mind to them that they |
18:41
|
|
hadn't seen within their own sources |
18:43
|
|
these possibilities, you know, within the Genesis text, |
18:45
|
|
and the Exodus text, and also in the Gospels. |
18:49
|
|
Where you could see these feminist |
18:52
|
|
female images, you know, I say female images |
18:55
|
|
of the divine and so I was, reimagining |
18:58
|
|
was an important word to me, it still is you know. |
19:02
|
|
And I love, |
19:08
|
| - |
What is it about that word that's important to you? |
19:09
|
| - |
Well because, I think the two pieces re and imagined, |
19:12
|
|
I mean imagine is wonderful. |
19:15
|
|
But, let me just put it bluntly. |
19:18
|
|
We talk about images of God, |
19:22
|
|
and I was reimagining God, okay images of God, |
19:23
|
|
but there isn't a single image of God |
19:27
|
|
that hasn't been imagined. |
19:30
|
|
Those are all imagined images. |
19:32
|
|
Where do you think they came from? |
19:34
|
| - |
Right. |
19:35
|
| - |
Hello. |
|
| - |
See but we don't follow that back |
19:36
|
|
because imagined has become, had become, |
19:38
|
|
it's changed, but then it goes back and forth. |
19:41
|
|
Something in the surreal that you've made up, |
19:44
|
|
or it's your own, you're not in the system. |
19:46
|
|
Excuse me the whole system is based on something imagined. |
19:48
|
|
You know, even the Genesis, all the Genesis text. |
19:52
|
|
You know, in the beginning God, |
19:56
|
|
well who was there, but who was there to record that, |
19:59
|
|
and say, and validate that when no one was there, |
20:01
|
|
when nobody was there. |
20:03
|
|
That's what I said, no one was there when nobody was there. |
20:05
|
|
So who's the evidence for that? |
20:07
|
|
Where's the evidence for that? |
20:08
|
| - |
Yeah. |
20:09
|
| - |
Well, God, well who's this God, you know. |
20:09
|
|
It's imagine in your image. |
20:11
|
|
So we're reimagining it, and then when we get done |
20:14
|
|
it's not what it is anyway, it's reimagined. |
20:17
|
|
The imaginations we can't hang onto. |
20:20
|
|
When actually feminists quickly learned |
20:23
|
|
and left all the images and went on to other things |
20:24
|
|
more out of the universe and cosmic mystery |
20:28
|
|
and wonderful things like that. |
20:30
|
|
You know, rhythm and sound. |
20:32
|
|
So, it's so, it's such an important breakthrough |
20:35
|
|
to get out of thinking. |
20:39
|
|
This is the legitimate and actual, |
20:41
|
|
the actual, but actual is not factual. |
20:43
|
|
It's factual on those who stated the facts |
20:48
|
|
and actualized it, but it's through |
20:51
|
|
human agency, all of this, anything we've known |
20:53
|
|
has come through human agency if it |
20:57
|
|
was revealed to and through a human, you know, |
20:59
|
|
then it's a humanoid construct. |
21:02
|
| - |
Yeah. |
21:04
|
| - |
And if you were taking this course in psychology |
21:05
|
|
or philosophy you would learn that. |
21:08
|
|
But if you take it in theology, |
21:10
|
|
you forget what you don't apply. |
21:11
|
|
Hello, when does that stop applying, you know? |
21:13
|
|
And I think that was what was underlying |
21:16
|
|
the whole horror of the reimagining conference. |
21:18
|
|
Because actually what was there, |
21:23
|
|
if you look back that was so horrible? |
21:25
|
|
But people who are clueless, were almost like |
21:27
|
|
is this what they're doing, |
21:32
|
|
(laughs) |
21:33
|
| - |
uh, huh. |
|
| - |
in their free time and we're paying their salaries. |
21:34
|
|
(laughing) |
21:36
|
|
Oh, my gosh. |
21:38
|
| - |
So is that how you, how do you account for the backlash? |
21:39
|
|
What did? |
21:42
|
| - |
I just feel that we were so marginalized. |
21:43
|
|
So as long as your marginalized you can do what you want. |
21:48
|
| - |
Mm hum, mm hum. |
21:52
|
| - |
It's sort of like the African-American |
21:52
|
|
whole movement here, if you are in the ghettos, |
21:54
|
|
you're doin' your thing, everything as well, |
21:56
|
|
yeah, sure you entertain us, and you make it into that, |
21:58
|
|
but you're in your place, you know, |
22:01
|
|
you're at the stage, you're in the sun, |
22:03
|
|
you're behind the microphone. |
22:05
|
|
But wait a minute, you want equity and parody. |
22:07
|
|
This is, this is, because then what you think |
22:09
|
|
and feel and say is gonna affect and shift and change. |
22:13
|
|
Not only my perception, but my reality, |
22:17
|
|
my comfort zone, that's what's happening everywhere. |
22:19
|
|
And that happened then, and that was just one, |
22:23
|
|
because one group that sponsored it |
22:26
|
|
was so horrified, and there was nothing |
22:28
|
|
to be horrified about, you know. |
22:31
|
| - |
Yes. |
22:33
|
| - |
Now you weren't at the |
22:34
|
|
'93 conference, but you |
22:35
|
| - |
I was not. |
|
|
But you learnt about it, or |
22:37
|
| - |
Oh incidentally, because I mean, |
22:39
|
|
because you stay, you're up to date on things like that. |
22:41
|
| - |
Yes. |
22:44
|
| - |
Yeah, and |
22:45
|
|
absolutely, |
22:47
|
|
and then immediately Barbara Brown Zikmund, |
22:48
|
|
who was president of the seminary, you know, |
22:50
|
|
the first female to become a president of a seminary, |
22:53
|
|
protestant seminary, well any seminary. |
22:56
|
|
(laughs) |
22:58
|
| - |
Yeah. |
|
| - |
She reached out and she offered her, |
23:00
|
|
she said look, she was fired, |
23:02
|
|
you know, Maryann Lundy |
23:03
|
| - |
Maryann Lundy. |
|
|
And she said listen, you have a place here. |
23:05
|
|
I'll make you, give you an office. |
23:06
|
|
And so she was two doors down from me. |
23:08
|
|
So and she was able to get her footing, |
23:10
|
|
and her balance and to figure out what to do next. |
23:13
|
|
And no one like disclaimed, |
23:17
|
|
none of those courageous women |
23:21
|
|
disassociated from the reality. |
23:23
|
|
They just accepted what they had to as a result of it. |
23:25
|
| - |
Yes |
23:29
|
| - |
And that to me is an amazing thing. |
23:30
|
| - |
Yeah. |
23:32
|
| - |
And then like anything when they really blow it, |
23:33
|
|
it just quietly disappears. |
23:36
|
|
There should be like, you know, |
23:38
|
|
a sense of revisiting, and a sense of redemption |
23:41
|
|
or you know, we're not ready for that, |
23:46
|
|
but there's so many things with Native Americans, |
23:48
|
|
and African-Americans, and women, |
23:50
|
|
and God knows what else, you know, |
23:52
|
|
that you look back, and even on our |
23:53
|
|
propensity to go to war, and blast people |
23:56
|
|
we don't understand, and just annihilate them. |
23:58
|
|
To ask forgiveness and to say, |
24:00
|
|
you know, we were in a mode of ignorance then. |
24:03
|
|
You know, |
24:07
|
| - |
Yeah. |
|
|
How hard is that to say? |
24:08
|
|
We can do this so easily. |
24:09
|
| - |
Yeah. |
24:10
|
| - |
Because we crow and we learn |
24:11
|
|
and we know this is what I thought then. |
24:12
|
|
You know, I wish I hadn't, but I did and I accept it. |
24:15
|
|
But I don't think that way now. |
24:17
|
|
But it's part of me anyway. |
24:19
|
| - |
Yes. |
24:21
|
| - |
You know, |
|
|
Now did you know Maryann Lundy before that? |
24:23
|
| - |
I did not know her before that |
24:26
|
|
No |
24:27
|
| - |
Yeah. |
|
|
Because she was more institutional thing |
24:28
|
|
and I had a, I was kind of, out there in the trenches. |
24:31
|
| - |
Yeah. |
24:35
|
| - |
The prison ministry, and you know, |
24:35
|
|
things that were in, and going to retreat centers, |
24:37
|
|
and other schools giving talks and stuff like that |
24:40
|
|
so that was my external things. |
24:44
|
| - |
But you got to know her |
24:46
|
|
while she was here. |
24:47
|
| - |
I did. |
|
| - |
Get to know her, a very incredible, you know, |
24:48
|
|
very incredible woman. |
24:50
|
|
Yeah, |
24:52
|
| - |
Yeah. |
|
|
I liked her a lot. |
24:53
|
| - |
Yeah. |
24:53
|
| - |
Yeah. |
24:55
|
| - |
And you ended up being a major presenter |
24:56
|
|
at the 95 reimagining, could you tell me |
24:59
|
|
what you remember about being asked for that. |
25:00
|
|
I know you don't say no, but, |
25:03
|
|
(laughs) |
25:04
|
| - |
I really thought about that. |
25:05
|
| - |
Did ya. |
25:07
|
| - |
Oh, yeah. |
25:08
|
| - |
Yeah. |
|
| - |
After what happened sure. |
25:09
|
| - |
Then I thought, what do I have to lose, |
25:10
|
|
I have nothing, I mean I have nothing to lose. |
25:13
|
|
You know. |
25:16
|
| - |
Yes, yes. |
|
|
This is an institution that doesn't, |
25:18
|
|
is not beholdin' to any denominational entity, you know. |
25:19
|
| - |
Right. |
25:25
|
| - |
And if this is what I do, and in what we believe, |
25:25
|
|
and now we have Barbara Brown Zikmund |
25:27
|
|
saying that there wasn't an issue. |
25:29
|
|
But my concern was, why me, and what am I going to do? |
25:31
|
|
You know, like, but they were asking me, |
25:36
|
|
and I again I have to, |
25:40
|
|
so much water has gone under the bridge |
25:43
|
|
since those years that so many things I've done, |
25:45
|
|
that my memory is just not, |
25:48
|
|
if I saw things I would, it would click back in. |
25:50
|
|
And I did manage to find a file that I was, |
25:53
|
|
from the flyer from it, that at least |
25:56
|
|
I remembered I was there. |
25:59
|
|
(laughter) |
26:00
|
|
Okay that's a start. |
26:02
|
|
And there's one unforgettable thing that happened |
26:03
|
|
that I will never forget from that that just, |
26:07
|
|
and that was the end point. |
26:10
|
|
But in between, I think, okay I'm saying |
26:12
|
|
what I think might, but this may not be true, |
26:19
|
|
but in my perception, probably why I was asked |
26:22
|
|
not only just to pick up the pieces, |
26:27
|
|
but I had a safe space and a valid space |
26:31
|
|
in academia in this institution, you know, |
26:35
|
|
so in a sense I wasn't on the fringe, |
26:38
|
|
I didn't come from nowhere, I came from somewhere. |
26:41
|
| - |
Yes. |
26:43
|
| - |
I had expertise so to speak in the subject matter, okay. |
26:43
|
|
I had done all the women of the Bible, |
26:49
|
|
those books and these other books. |
26:51
|
|
And I had these women's programs so I was in it. |
26:53
|
|
But also, I was not one that went |
27:00
|
|
to certain extremes, and I don't wanna |
27:03
|
|
call them extremists, but, I was, I let women do things, |
27:05
|
|
but for myself, I'm more, you know, |
27:09
|
|
I'm changing, I don't now, I didn't have to do anything. |
27:13
|
|
I was, I just, I'm, you know, |
27:15
|
|
I can't put it into words, but it's a safer bet |
27:18
|
|
if you wanna bring someone in, and then you've got |
27:21
|
|
a Catholic nun, I mean, |
27:23
|
|
(laughing) |
27:24
|
|
for our connect, I mean that already a challenge. |
27:25
|
|
But I said well what can I do, |
27:29
|
|
and then you pointed out what the theme was, |
27:31
|
|
that already I had reimagined all these things. |
27:36
|
| - |
Yes. |
27:40
|
| - |
And I had reimagined them on the sources. |
27:41
|
|
Now it's coming back to me. |
27:44
|
| - |
Yes. |
27:45
|
| - |
That I had gone to the Bible |
27:45
|
|
and was surprised at what I found. |
27:47
|
|
So I could share that saying, |
27:50
|
|
okay I was at the stage where people |
27:51
|
|
who don't even know what this is were at. |
27:53
|
|
And take it from step one through |
27:55
|
|
so that in both testaments you know, |
27:58
|
|
and but particularly as you get back |
28:01
|
|
into the Genesis thing and you know, |
28:03
|
|
and to show that those that we hold up as core |
28:04
|
|
figures in our tradition as the groomers and all. |
28:09
|
|
They weren't even part of the tradition. |
28:13
|
| - |
Who were you thinking of? |
28:16
|
|
(grinding noises) |
28:17
|
| - |
Sara for example. |
28:19
|
| - |
Right, yes. |
|
|
I mean Sara was a high, there's a lot of evidence |
28:20
|
|
of her being a high priestess. |
28:23
|
|
And also Abraham had more than one wife. |
28:26
|
|
And I mean you lift this up and you say these things, |
28:28
|
|
and she wanted to be, and you reinterpret |
28:32
|
|
the garden story of the sacred grove, |
28:36
|
|
and the serpent and all of those images. |
28:38
|
|
And Yahushua, the Branch, you know, |
28:40
|
|
the flowering tree, which is a goddess. |
28:42
|
|
And you put that all together, |
28:44
|
|
and then you say, that's where Eve, |
28:45
|
|
and so the core to this, all our traditions, |
28:49
|
|
is this Eve was a woman of those traditions. |
28:51
|
| - |
Yes. |
28:54
|
| - |
But Adam all of a sudden, |
28:55
|
|
so there's more to this story. |
28:57
|
|
He's the proponent from the other side, |
28:59
|
|
his legitimacy coming in, you know, |
29:02
|
|
and it's interesting how the tree of good and evil, |
29:06
|
|
there's another tree, the tree of life, you know. |
29:11
|
|
And in the whole question of ish, |
29:14
|
|
ish and isharah, ish and ishah, |
29:17
|
|
you can not be male and female, you can be humans, |
29:21
|
|
but you really him and her, male and female, |
29:24
|
|
and generative once you are identified as that |
29:26
|
|
so you took that symbolic apple, |
29:31
|
|
you took it and you acted, so that you could be fully human. |
29:35
|
|
And to be fully human, meant a whole lot of other things. |
29:40
|
|
Okay, and so to follow through with all |
29:44
|
|
of this what's going on, and then the symbolic there |
29:47
|
|
of the serpent being the symbol |
29:50
|
|
of the goddess worship and all. |
29:52
|
|
You know you don't have to accept that interpretation, |
29:54
|
|
but that's your Bible, this is our Bible, |
29:57
|
|
it's the same Bible and it's two |
29:59
|
|
different story lines and we both claim it. |
30:00
|
|
Now isn't that interesting? |
30:02
|
| - |
Yeah. |
30:03
|
| - |
Isn't that that could not have been |
30:04
|
|
the cannon of the scripture |
30:06
|
|
that we say is mandatory, there's room for all of us. |
30:07
|
|
There was room for all of us. |
30:12
|
|
And doesn't end there, it follows through, okay. |
30:14
|
|
And so, that's kind of I guess what I danced around |
30:17
|
|
and then brought in some music and rituals. |
30:23
|
|
But the closing thing was the thing that almost, |
30:25
|
|
I literally almost lost my bearings. |
30:28
|
| - |
Really. |
30:31
|
| - |
it's the final thing right. |
30:33
|
|
I had designed a ritual, |
30:34
|
|
and to this day I can't even remember what it is. |
30:35
|
|
I'm on the stage to do something, |
30:39
|
|
I had I think something a call and response |
30:41
|
|
to something, was gonna do very simple, |
30:43
|
|
so I didn't really have too much there. |
30:45
|
| - |
Yeah. |
30:48
|
| - |
And I think there was that one, |
30:49
|
|
something in the program maybe, |
30:51
|
|
and all of a sudden my mouth is open to start, |
30:52
|
|
I'm standing there, attention please comes the microphone. |
30:56
|
|
Breaks in just like an emergency thing. |
31:01
|
| - |
Oh |
31:03
|
| - |
There's an announcement. |
31:04
|
|
What's his name? |
31:07
|
|
The Prime Minister of Israel has been assassinated. |
31:08
|
| - |
Yes. |
31:12
|
|
(knocking sound drowns out speaker) |
31:15
|
|
and it's, he was assassinated. |
31:19
|
| - |
Yes, that's right. |
31:20
|
| - |
And that's the end of that announcement. |
31:21
|
|
Now why did they have to announce that |
31:24
|
|
to the whole group at that moment? |
31:26
|
|
My mouth open on stage. |
31:29
|
| - |
Yes, oh my goodness. |
|
|
What do you do? |
31:32
|
| - |
Right. |
31:33
|
| - |
Okay so now, I may be a wild eyed feminist, |
31:34
|
|
I may be there for that, I may be there |
31:37
|
|
for my biblical background scholarship. |
31:38
|
| - |
Yes. |
31:40
|
| - |
But I'm also a liturgist. |
31:41
|
| - |
Yes. |
31:42
|
| - |
And you can't ignore the present moment. |
31:44
|
| - |
No. |
31:45
|
| - |
You can't pretend that didn't happen. |
31:46
|
| - |
Right. |
31:48
|
| - |
But what in God's holy name am I gonna do with that? |
31:48
|
|
You know, |
31:51
|
| - |
Yes. |
|
|
And something flashed, you know, the Holy Spirit, |
31:53
|
|
when you give yourself over, |
31:57
|
|
and I just say spirit take me, all these things. |
31:59
|
|
It flashed in my mind what my wonderful Perry Astrid, |
32:04
|
|
who used to do with women who were at the church. |
32:08
|
|
She'd come and most of the weekends, |
32:10
|
|
do a one woman act play, she's from England, brilliant. |
32:13
|
|
And she did, I remember her doing this. |
32:16
|
|
(double rapping sound, repeated twice) |
32:20
|
|
And so I just, I just started doin' that. |
32:22
|
|
I didn't know what was gonna follow. |
32:24
|
| - |
Yes. |
32:25
|
| - |
And then people started doin' that. |
32:27
|
|
And then I started to howl. |
32:30
|
|
And then we (drowned out by rapping sound) |
32:33
|
|
and then just rock, and the whole thing |
32:34
|
|
just rocked and did this, and ew, and moaned, |
32:38
|
|
and groaned, and then I just brought it to, |
32:42
|
|
and I just sort of, the holy one of blessing, |
32:45
|
|
we lift up to you with this, and then all the, |
32:48
|
|
and the people, and so it's just this culminating prayer. |
32:51
|
|
I think that's what it is, it's what's leading |
32:56
|
|
me to do it now, must have been what led me to do it then. |
32:58
|
|
And then just sort of, I think just ended it. |
33:01
|
|
Because what else could you do? |
33:03
|
|
It was, |
33:05
|
| - |
Yes. |
|
|
And it was a lesson to face the moment. |
33:06
|
| - |
Yes. |
33:09
|
| - |
and whatever you do, it's gonna have to be good enough |
33:10
|
|
because anything different would not have been acceptable. |
33:13
|
| - |
Right. |
33:16
|
| - |
And because we're saying, we don't feel included |
33:18
|
|
with those rituals going on that do not even |
33:22
|
|
recognize our presence, here is this horrible thing, |
33:24
|
|
and I'm sure there were also Jewish women, |
33:27
|
|
you know, among that group, |
33:29
|
|
so that was probably why spirit led me to be there, |
33:31
|
|
in the end. |
33:37
|
| - |
Yes. |
|
|
You know, |
33:39
|
| - |
Wow. |
|
|
Because and they gave me that insight. |
33:39
|
|
And there once again, I promptly over the years |
33:43
|
|
wiped all of that out of my mind. |
33:45
|
|
And moved on you know. |
33:48
|
| - |
It's been a long time. |
|
| - |
Well it started, the conference started |
33:50
|
|
rather dramatically for you, because you were so ill. |
33:52
|
| - |
Now that, was that the same one? |
33:56
|
| - |
It was, yes. |
33:58
|
|
You talked about that at the beginning of your, |
34:00
|
|
in your first comments to the group. |
34:02
|
|
You talked about how you, |
34:04
|
| - |
What year was this? |
34:05
|
| - |
95, and you had arrived, and I don't know what |
34:06
|
|
you were ill with |
34:09
|
| - |
You're absolutely right. |
|
|
Yeah, and then Jill Jeffrien, and Beth |
34:11
|
| - |
What time was, when was this conference? |
34:12
|
| - |
November, beginning of November 1995. |
34:15
|
|
And you said that you were, they came at four o'clock |
34:19
|
|
and you were so, so sick, and you asked |
34:22
|
|
them to pray over you. |
34:24
|
| - |
Boy I don't remember that. |
34:27
|
|
I remember, I remember the call |
34:29
|
|
to action one, which was 1996. |
34:31
|
| - |
Yeah |
34:34
|
| - |
When Hans Kung opened, |
34:35
|
| - |
Yeah |
34:39
|
| - |
And I was to close. |
34:40
|
| - |
Yes. |
34:41
|
| - |
And three weeks before that, I had a mastectomy. |
34:42
|
| - |
Oh, my goodness. |
34:48
|
| - |
And I couldn't not go because, |
34:49
|
|
I couldn't just, there were 4,000 plus people, |
34:52
|
|
stiff them |
34:56
|
| - |
Wow. |
|
|
So I said I would still come. |
34:58
|
|
I just told only two of their leaders, |
34:59
|
|
that I put me in a hotel room near where I'm gonna be, |
35:01
|
|
and I will do this, and again, I just stood up |
35:05
|
|
on that stage and said Holy Spirit, |
35:08
|
|
and just I guess for an hour just shared spirit. |
35:11
|
|
And then I decided, you know, |
35:14
|
|
if I'm gonna be authentic, so toward the end of it |
35:17
|
|
I just told the story of, |
35:20
|
|
and I linked it to imaging, reimagining, |
35:23
|
|
so maybe some of this, something, |
35:25
|
|
like I don't know, I don't know if I |
35:28
|
|
can think backwards to that but I said, |
35:29
|
| - |
Yeah |
35:31
|
| - |
Here it is, I talked about liturgy of life |
35:33
|
|
in the camps and how, I've been redeemed, |
35:36
|
|
and I believe this to the core of my being. |
35:40
|
|
But I said it publicly that I am ordained |
35:42
|
|
by the spirit of the living God |
35:45
|
|
to celebrate the liturgy life and so I found |
35:46
|
|
the most authentic rituals and the refugee camps |
35:49
|
|
among the hungry and the children, |
35:51
|
|
the dispossessed, and the homeless, |
35:53
|
|
and I said, and discovering images of God. |
35:55
|
|
God the breasted one, you know, Shaddai. |
35:59
|
|
And I gave those images and I said it was so. |
36:03
|
|
And then I has this wonderful event this weekend. |
36:05
|
|
One of these weekends women were in the church. |
36:08
|
|
This woman had been doing pottery, you know, |
36:09
|
|
She had discovered pottery because |
36:14
|
|
she always wanted to do art but she couldn't |
36:17
|
|
and when her father died, because he wanted her |
36:19
|
|
to do business, so she did business. |
36:20
|
|
He died and her husband said why don't you follow your heart |
36:22
|
|
and she became a famous artist after that. |
36:24
|
|
But anyway, but first I said, |
36:27
|
|
why don't you do it, your first pieces, |
36:29
|
|
and sell it at my Women Were the Church. |
36:31
|
|
So that was her inaugural thing. |
36:33
|
|
Okay I'm setting that up because |
36:34
|
|
in telling the story I said, |
36:38
|
|
I came back from India, |
36:40
|
|
I had to go to Latin America to do a big thing, |
36:43
|
|
came back, and I had my annual mammogram. |
36:46
|
|
I said it was always fine but all of a sudden, |
36:48
|
|
this was aggressive, and anyway, |
36:50
|
|
long story short, I'm facing surgery for breast, |
36:52
|
|
and they said, would you believe, |
36:57
|
|
I finally get images of the divine that work for me, |
37:00
|
|
in God the breasted one. |
37:04
|
|
And then I lose one of those breasts. |
37:06
|
|
I said, that ain't gonna work for me any more. |
37:08
|
|
And I said I began to like, |
37:10
|
|
the day before I was in the mail room, |
37:12
|
|
with, you know, my black female colleague was with me, |
37:14
|
|
and we were just crying, I said, |
37:19
|
|
you know this really is this terrible. |
37:20
|
|
I said, you know, not only is this happening, |
37:23
|
|
I'm losing my whole spiritual basis, |
37:25
|
|
and you know, and she, I said but, |
37:27
|
|
God will be with me I know, |
37:30
|
|
so I'm saying, there was a box in my mailbox. |
37:31
|
|
And the return address was Sacred Spaces |
37:33
|
|
and it was this woman's address you know. |
37:37
|
|
I said I wonder what this is, I opened it, |
37:39
|
|
and she says, the card says, |
37:40
|
|
here is my first attempt at a bowl of God Shaddai. |
37:44
|
|
I was at your conference, I heard you speak, |
37:52
|
|
and this so spoke to me and I lifted it up. |
37:54
|
|
And God Shaddai had wings. |
37:58
|
|
I had forgotten I also teach that God Shaddai |
38:00
|
|
is the breasted one, and the winged one. |
38:03
|
|
The mother hen and the you know, |
38:06
|
|
(knocking drowns out speaker) |
38:09
|
|
and I had in my misery, self inflicted misery, |
38:11
|
|
of feeling sorry for myself forgot that part. |
38:17
|
|
And God the winged one, |
38:20
|
|
came from an address that said Sacred Spaces. |
38:23
|
|
And said to me and I will be with you |
38:28
|
|
as who I will be, I will be with. |
38:30
|
|
I told that story, I say, so I knew that this, |
38:32
|
|
I said what are the chances that |
38:35
|
|
that was not orchestrated by the Holy Spirit. |
38:38
|
|
So I said, I went to surgery, |
38:41
|
|
and I said it's not even three weeks, |
38:42
|
|
so forgive me I'm feeling a little dizzy, |
38:44
|
|
if I have not been coherent, |
38:45
|
|
and I literally was at one hour, |
38:46
|
|
cause I could hardly, I had to sit. |
38:48
|
|
And I think, the place went crazy. |
38:50
|
| - |
Oh. |
38:54
|
| - |
It was like, it was like I can't even imagine |
38:55
|
|
going up the aisle and women were jumping |
38:57
|
|
over people to say, I too had a mastectomy, |
38:59
|
|
thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, |
39:02
|
|
for saying it out loud. |
39:04
|
|
Holy, you know. |
39:05
|
|
It was like, and so that became like a defining moment. |
39:07
|
|
Now what was before, I'm not quite sure. |
39:11
|
|
It might have been some flu or something like that. |
39:13
|
| - |
Yeah, I think it was something like that. |
39:16
|
|
Yes, yes. |
39:17
|
| - |
But I think it was something |
|
| - |
Less dramatic you know. |
39:19
|
| - |
I'm glad you told that story, |
39:23
|
|
that is a powerful story. |
39:24
|
| - |
It's so powerful, you couldn't even make this up. |
39:26
|
| - |
No. |
39:30
|
| - |
And I wanna tell you though, |
39:31
|
|
and this is just, so many, I could, |
39:33
|
|
if I put my, someday I need to just |
39:36
|
|
tell these stories again. |
39:38
|
|
There's so many, and they're still |
39:39
|
|
happening all the time now. |
39:41
|
|
Moments like this. |
39:43
|
|
But that is what this new degree is founded in. |
39:44
|
|
Be open to that because they're happening, |
39:49
|
|
but we're too busy, and too conditioned |
39:52
|
|
in other way to recognize, accept and affirm that, you know, |
39:55
|
|
and if you open the space it will be there. |
40:00
|
|
What you need will be given to you. |
40:02
|
|
It's told us, you know. |
40:05
|
|
And we need to trust that. |
40:07
|
|
You need to trust that. |
40:09
|
|
You know, I thought I stood on that sample, |
40:10
|
|
what dear God can I do this, you know. |
40:13
|
| - |
Yes. |
40:15
|
| - |
It was, TV screens, it was full, |
40:16
|
|
Cobo Hall in Detroit is huge. |
40:20
|
|
You know, 4,000 plus people, and I just, |
40:23
|
|
then I just tuned it out, I just was there. |
40:25
|
|
So sometimes you know, you have more guts than sense. |
40:30
|
|
(laughing) |
40:33
|
|
I didn't want guts in this space |
40:35
|
|
it's just I can't tell them that I'm not gonna come. |
40:36
|
|
You know |
40:39
|
| - |
yeah. |
|
|
There's a sense of responsibility |
40:40
|
|
for the planners and everything, you know. |
40:41
|
|
And I know how it is because I planned, |
40:44
|
|
and then you pull a key thing out, |
40:46
|
|
and I said, this is meant to be. |
40:49
|
|
If this is what it is, there's some reason why I'm going. |
40:51
|
| - |
Yes, and it ended up being such a blessing |
40:55
|
|
to other people. |
40:56
|
| - |
It really did. |
|
| - |
In the end it really did. |
40:57
|
| - |
Yes. |
40:58
|
| - |
And a blessing to me as well. |
40:59
|
|
Because from then on it was absolute exposure. |
41:01
|
|
I am not gonna hide this, |
41:05
|
|
I am not gonna have reconstruction. |
41:07
|
|
I'm not gonna buy a bra with a something in |
41:08
|
|
to have two breasts, I'm a one breasted woman. |
41:11
|
|
You know, |
41:13
|
| - |
Yes. |
|
|
And it's not changed me, |
41:15
|
|
and so when I was in the prison, |
41:17
|
|
I can't tell you how many different women came up, |
41:18
|
|
you only have one breast, |
41:21
|
|
I said yes. |
41:22
|
|
Oh, really. |
41:24
|
|
Yes, I've had cancer and I'm a survivor and I'm thrilled. |
41:26
|
|
You're a survivor too of other things, remember that. |
41:30
|
|
We can go on, you know, this doesn't define me. |
41:32
|
|
You know, |
41:36
|
| - |
Yes. |
|
|
It's a piece of me and so it became like a nice |
41:37
|
|
really transitional symbol. |
41:40
|
| - |
Yeah, connection. |
41:43
|
| - |
Connection, yeah. |
41:44
|
| - |
Yeah, yeah, you know, so much of this |
41:45
|
|
is about feminist theology, |
41:47
|
|
when and how did you get interested |
41:49
|
|
in feminist theology MT. |
41:51
|
| - |
I really didn't to tell you the truth. |
41:53
|
|
(laughing) |
41:54
|
| - |
I didn't get interested in anything, |
41:56
|
|
I just backed into it, and then it hooked me. |
41:57
|
|
Do you know what I'm saying. |
42:00
|
| - |
Tell me, tell me how you backed into it. |
42:02
|
|
That's fascinating. |
42:03
|
| - |
Well I'm syncing somewhere when I said |
42:04
|
|
about inviting people coming here to speak. |
42:09
|
|
And then women church, and then saying gee, |
42:12
|
|
I don't have any song, my songs, where are my songs, |
42:14
|
|
I've been using all this male language, |
42:17
|
|
and so I had to disassociate, |
42:19
|
|
so I said I'm gonna lock up here for the whole summer. |
42:22
|
|
And I said to the faculty, |
42:24
|
|
I said to one, I'm saying, |
42:26
|
|
why don't we just use for one month |
42:27
|
|
all the all female images, so I went to a Muslim, |
42:29
|
|
one of my Muslim, a very small 12, |
42:32
|
|
I said he's a nice guy, and he really open, you know, |
42:34
|
|
actually he wasn't Muslim, so sorry, |
42:37
|
|
he was Christian, Episcopal, |
42:39
|
|
but he taught in the Islamic area. |
42:43
|
|
I said could I |
42:46
|
| - |
Yes |
|
|
ask you, I'm wanting to do this now, |
42:47
|
|
will you support me, I'm gonna ask the faculty |
42:48
|
|
just for one, that every time it's a he you put she. |
42:50
|
|
And he was this dead silence. |
42:53
|
|
And you could see the blood just drained out of his face. |
42:55
|
|
And he stood there, and he said, |
42:57
|
|
why couldn't we just call Him it. |
43:03
|
|
And I said because, if you call Him it, |
43:08
|
|
for you and everybody else, it will always be Him. |
43:13
|
| - |
Yeah. |
43:16
|
| - |
And for me, while it'll always be Her, |
43:17
|
|
it ain't gonna go anywhere. |
43:19
|
| - |
Right. |
43:21
|
| - |
So we gotta get rid of the Him, and Her, |
43:22
|
|
and everything so it isn't gonna do it at first. |
43:24
|
|
But we've got to demythologize the other. |
43:27
|
|
So I never was able to pull that one off, |
43:30
|
|
but I went into seclusion, the songs |
43:32
|
|
of women song battled somewhere. |
43:35
|
|
And I said, and it wasn't easy for me either, |
43:36
|
|
because conditioned the other way, you know. |
43:39
|
|
Not using pronouns is alright. |
43:41
|
|
And theologically, and spiritually |
43:44
|
|
understanding the openesses. |
43:46
|
|
But singing the words was, |
43:47
|
|
but after a while I get so into it, you know, |
43:49
|
|
and then people, when that ghost, |
43:52
|
|
my feminist, or female things started coming out |
43:54
|
|
then people began responding, |
43:58
|
|
and then you get more into it, to legitimize. |
43:59
|
|
So I was led, okay, we did these rituals, |
44:02
|
|
woman prayer, woman song, with that, |
44:05
|
|
and then all of a sudden the women of the Bible. |
44:07
|
|
And I was so, always so, impressed with Theorenza. |
44:10
|
|
And when she said, you know, |
44:14
|
|
at one point in her first classical breakthrough book, |
44:16
|
|
she said, if wherever we, if we don't have any, |
44:21
|
|
specific things we can use, then we need to imagine. |
44:27
|
|
And that's what got me early on into imagining, |
44:31
|
|
and then to reimagining okay. |
44:34
|
|
So I'm saying, gee, imagining, |
44:36
|
|
well let me go and first of all |
44:38
|
|
let's see what's in the scriptures before I start imagining. |
44:40
|
| - |
Yeah |
44:42
|
| - |
So I went through all the Bible, |
44:43
|
|
first testament, I mean New Testament, |
44:45
|
|
and I said I think I'm gonna do rituals |
44:48
|
|
that women word, on every woman in the Bible |
44:51
|
|
even those who are implied, and you know. |
44:54
|
|
And so I did something for all of them. |
44:57
|
|
And then that was done. |
45:00
|
|
And then I saw no, I'm talkin' to the demons here. |
45:02
|
|
Not the demons, the other women, I said, |
45:06
|
|
don't you dare, don't you dare |
45:08
|
|
ask me to do this, the first testament, |
45:11
|
|
the Old Testament, I said it's too big, |
45:13
|
|
too long, too many, I'm too tired, too newmist, |
45:15
|
|
da, da, da, da, da, go away. |
45:17
|
|
(laughs) |
45:19
|
| - |
And they didn't. |
45:21
|
| - |
I couldn't take a no, you know, |
45:23
|
|
right, they didn't know |
45:24
|
| - |
(laughing) Yes. |
|
|
I couldn't take a no. |
45:25
|
| - |
Yes. |
|
|
And I started. |
45:27
|
|
And like, like a wild, when I did it |
45:29
|
|
in a relatively short time. |
45:31
|
|
Fortunately cause there's so little |
45:32
|
|
that's ever written anywhere so, |
45:33
|
|
I used up all the jury sources Christian |
45:35
|
|
I could find academically. |
45:37
|
|
And then I decided to do it in a way |
45:39
|
|
that would be prayer in ritual. |
45:41
|
|
And so Psalms and also I finished that collection. |
45:43
|
|
And then I got into, okay now that's what's there, |
45:46
|
|
pretty much there. |
45:49
|
|
But now I can start imagining. |
45:50
|
|
So that went to the Gospel according to Mary. |
45:52
|
|
What if, and you know, women had their own stories. |
45:55
|
|
You know they had their own traditions. |
45:58
|
| - |
Yes. |
46:00
|
| - |
You know they didn't make it into writings, |
46:01
|
|
so what if I imagine that. |
46:02
|
|
Okay, and then what about the Exodus, Genesis |
46:04
|
|
and Exodus, cause those two books are filled with women, |
46:07
|
|
and they're always, and so I did |
46:11
|
|
the Chronicles of Noah and Her Sisters. |
46:13
|
|
And when I looked up Noah, |
46:15
|
|
which was brilliant first move. |
46:17
|
|
There are two references to Noah in the Scriptures, |
46:19
|
|
and one of them is female. |
46:23
|
|
And everybody forgets that. |
46:24
|
|
With those five feisty daughters, you know. |
46:26
|
|
That's how I got so established in the scriptural thing. |
46:29
|
|
And the theological, which of course |
46:34
|
|
has taken me away from my metaphorical |
46:37
|
|
which is my first love, but that's always my secret life. |
46:40
|
|
But the secret life went into Psalms which are public. |
46:43
|
|
So it's not so secret any more. |
46:45
|
|
But the good news is, and this is what saved everything, |
46:48
|
|
and where I'm working on it now with much more strength. |
46:51
|
|
I'm a gemini. |
46:53
|
| - |
Ah. |
46:54
|
| - |
So one side is really happy with all of that stuff, |
46:55
|
|
the other side is really happy with this stuff. |
46:59
|
|
And in my latter years now, in my dotage, |
47:01
|
|
I am now have the twins, not only working together, |
47:04
|
|
very clear this is your turn. |
47:09
|
|
I call on the right, the correct side for the right thing, |
47:11
|
|
you know, |
47:14
|
| - |
Yes. |
|
|
And don't mix it up, if I do that's when you get distressed. |
47:15
|
|
You know if my metaphorical side |
47:18
|
|
is trying to get rid of all of this detail. |
47:20
|
|
No, you come out later on, |
47:22
|
|
when you're falling asleep, when I'm waking up, |
47:24
|
|
and when you're in your zone, and you're in the park, |
47:27
|
|
you let this person do the homework, |
47:29
|
|
and then you got something to work with. |
47:31
|
|
So it's kind of a really neat |
47:32
|
|
learning for myself psychologically and all. |
47:34
|
|
And to help others to do that, you know. |
47:38
|
|
Take the experience, don't mess up the experience, |
47:41
|
|
with you're, you know, theory. |
47:43
|
|
Keep it separate. |
47:48
|
|
Then look at your theory, |
47:49
|
|
and say which has the more authenticity for you? |
47:50
|
|
Which is the power of the impact? |
47:53
|
|
What is it saying? |
47:55
|
|
Which is conditioning the other, you know, |
47:56
|
|
where can you unite a piece of each one? |
47:59
|
|
So that's part of this teaching thing. |
48:01
|
|
You know, to honor all these different elements |
48:04
|
|
and take them seriously. |
48:07
|
| - |
You know, I'm fascinated when you |
48:09
|
|
talk about going into seclusion, |
48:11
|
|
and singing the songs using feminine images. |
48:12
|
|
And you're the perfect person to ask this. |
48:15
|
|
I think a lot of the power and the backlash |
48:17
|
|
of reimagining was the fact that it was liturgy. |
48:19
|
|
And the fact that it was song |
48:22
|
| - |
Yes. |
|
|
And so it was worship. |
48:24
|
| - |
Absolutely. |
|
|
So could you say a little bit more about |
48:25
|
|
why that was powerful for you. |
48:27
|
|
What is it about this that makes it so powerful, |
48:30
|
|
and even dangerous to some people. |
48:33
|
| - |
Well for me for example, |
48:34
|
|
I was a very little girl, six, seven. |
48:37
|
|
Almost before school gave its influence, I was ready, pause. |
48:40
|
|
And I was sitting, and I grew up over my grandfather's |
48:44
|
|
saloon in Passaic, New Jersey, |
48:49
|
|
in a very small cold water flat you know. |
48:50
|
|
But, in the summers, that was my mother's family. |
48:53
|
|
My father's family had a farm in the Catskills mountains. |
48:57
|
|
A little bitsy thing. |
49:01
|
|
And so summer time I would be there |
49:02
|
|
and I would just be sitting out at night |
49:05
|
|
listening, you know, and sitting on the stone fence |
49:07
|
|
and looking at the stars and imagining. |
49:10
|
|
So I had, and so when I was home |
49:12
|
|
in the Passaic, New Jersey part. |
49:15
|
|
My grandmother's next to the bar, |
49:18
|
|
was a little, their house, and the only |
49:20
|
|
little garden in the whole area. |
49:24
|
|
It was all tenement flats, but they had saved |
49:26
|
|
this little, very posted sand garden |
49:28
|
|
with a tree in the middle, and little plants |
49:31
|
|
and I would sit on the porch and write poems. |
49:32
|
|
So I could write there, and I could revel in it in Catskill. |
49:34
|
|
But that was a real world for me, |
49:40
|
|
even though, and I would, I don't know, |
49:42
|
|
when I discovered, read the birds and the trees. |
49:44
|
|
I don't know, I loved that peace of it, |
49:46
|
|
and at night I would lay in bed |
49:50
|
|
and I would be writing a poem, and I'd never finish. |
49:51
|
|
If I had one word that didn't fit right, |
49:54
|
|
it would stay until it, you know, came together. |
49:56
|
|
So it was, I had a parallel universe, literally. |
50:01
|
|
And went in and out, back and forth. |
50:04
|
|
That's, and I didn't share, those with anybody. |
50:10
|
|
They were my secret things. |
50:14
|
|
And even entering the community. |
50:16
|
|
Well when I entered the community, |
50:18
|
|
the one, and she just passed on, |
50:22
|
|
bless her heart, Jane Byrnes, Sister Gerard. |
50:23
|
|
She was one of the rare ones, |
50:26
|
|
who was an English major and loved Gerard madly, |
50:27
|
|
Hopkins, and all the poets, so she stoked that in me. |
50:31
|
|
And plus the biblical stories, |
50:35
|
|
and all the lyricism in the Scriptures. |
50:37
|
|
I learned to see that there's another stream there, |
50:39
|
|
not just what you get when you go to mass on Sunday. |
50:42
|
|
And the little bit that's carved out of context. |
50:45
|
|
And so, I fell in love with that kind of thing. |
50:48
|
|
And so I would integrate then some of those images |
50:52
|
|
into my poems and it was before I was writing, |
50:54
|
|
you know, folk songs. |
50:56
|
|
That I knew the power of ritual, |
51:00
|
|
and then because they taught it to me. |
51:02
|
|
We were into the Gregorian chant. |
51:04
|
|
We followed the ritual at the hours and everything else, |
51:06
|
|
as missionaries, not as monastics. |
51:10
|
|
So there was only Prime in the morning, |
51:12
|
|
and Compline at night, and Vespers on big feasts, |
51:14
|
|
and mass, but, we had a sense of the sacredness |
51:17
|
|
of the day, of the seasons, and Easter, |
51:20
|
|
and you know, it was outdoors and indoors. |
51:23
|
|
So that ritual, liturgy, was important, very important. |
51:26
|
|
And then when the changes came, |
51:32
|
|
and we were working toward these changes before they came, |
51:34
|
|
we were part of those movements, you know. |
51:36
|
|
They needed to fit the people, |
51:38
|
|
they needed to be accessible, |
51:40
|
|
they couldn't just be an ancient, |
51:42
|
|
not that you'd ever wanna lose those, |
51:44
|
|
but they belong in museums or certain occasions, |
51:46
|
|
or you know, how do we make it. |
51:48
|
|
So that's how I got into, all of a sudden. |
51:51
|
|
That's why I said when I found that that degree |
51:56
|
|
thing wasn't working, I started singing songs. |
51:58
|
|
Has somebody read my star chart it's really great. |
52:02
|
|
All my very private gifts, |
52:05
|
|
every one is in all the public houses. |
52:09
|
|
It's in all this (drowned out by sigh) |
52:13
|
|
wrong houses. |
52:15
|
|
In other words, so theoretically, |
52:16
|
|
I extrovert, and I got extroverted. |
52:20
|
|
But I'm right on the line so these |
52:23
|
|
things are introverted, you know. |
52:25
|
|
I have a world inside, and that was more dominant |
52:28
|
|
when I was younger for me, because I would recede into that. |
52:31
|
|
Now that I'm doing all this teaching, |
52:35
|
|
my world is really out there, |
52:37
|
|
wanting you and your world to open up, you know. |
52:39
|
|
So, and in a sense, maybe I can do this, |
52:44
|
|
with such conviction because that's happened to me. |
52:46
|
|
I opened up. |
52:50
|
|
But then I'm opening you up, |
52:52
|
|
so you can open others up. |
52:53
|
|
Not only, if you have to open to yourself first, |
52:55
|
|
but then the point is not to stay, |
52:57
|
|
but to go out, this is how you can help others. |
52:59
|
|
And so it becomes like, you know, |
53:01
|
|
almost something that is contagious really. |
53:05
|
| - |
Yes. |
53:08
|
| - |
So I haven't been writing in psalms in a long time now |
53:10
|
|
because I got so into getting this degree going |
53:13
|
|
and finishing all this going around. |
53:16
|
|
And somebody writes me from Albuquerque, |
53:19
|
|
when, 2011, 12, 13, 14, 15, maybe six years now. |
53:23
|
|
He wants to put out a collection of my songs |
53:29
|
|
sung by other people of note, could I do it. |
53:32
|
|
So I thought he was crazy. |
53:34
|
|
And actually had letters from him in the past. |
53:35
|
|
He wasn't, I thought, huh. |
53:39
|
|
So I didn't even answer him. |
53:40
|
|
So six months go by, seven months. |
53:42
|
|
And he was a sweet guy so he didn't follow up, you know. |
53:45
|
|
And so I find this letter in the pile |
53:51
|
|
of unanswered letters and I said, |
53:52
|
|
gee, I really at least should say somthin'. |
53:54
|
|
And so I say, well what do you mean or something, |
53:57
|
|
why would you do this or, |
54:00
|
|
well that's all he needed, he leaped on it. |
54:01
|
|
(laughing) |
54:04
|
|
This was a man who had sung my songs |
54:05
|
|
as a church musician and all. |
54:09
|
|
He had been in a religious community. |
54:10
|
|
He'd left. |
54:12
|
|
He was in Albuquerque, New Mexico. |
54:13
|
|
He was, had a sacred art guild |
54:15
|
|
then he had formed out there at the Shrine. |
54:19
|
|
At the National Shrine for Saint Bernadette. |
54:21
|
|
Super rue, he was an artist. |
54:25
|
|
He'd gotten lots of things published |
54:26
|
|
and stuff, you know. |
54:29
|
|
And he wanted to do this. |
54:30
|
|
He loved my music. |
54:32
|
|
He said I can do it, and he told me what it was, |
54:33
|
|
the Sacred Books on Prayer, |
54:36
|
|
and I said I think you're crazy. |
54:38
|
|
Nobody's gonna do this. |
54:39
|
|
I said, but I'm not gonna stop you. |
54:40
|
|
That's all I said. |
54:44
|
|
I don't, I'm not gonna stop, that's all I said. |
54:45
|
|
Well let me tell you. |
54:48
|
|
Okay we're working on the third one. |
54:50
|
|
And not working so much, |
54:51
|
|
as it's apart from my spirit to play on, |
54:53
|
|
cause we have, now Lamour's gonna do |
54:56
|
|
another one in New York, she's, |
54:58
|
|
there's a studio in New York, and I'm |
55:00
|
|
gonna meet with her next month and she's gonna, |
55:01
|
|
she's gonna go back to One by One |
55:04
|
|
from the Women's song, One by One, you know. |
55:07
|
|
I said we need a little bit of feminist energy in here. |
55:10
|
|
And she could toss that one. |
55:12
|
|
But he got people and that's what he did. |
55:15
|
|
And he had contacted Janis Ian, |
55:18
|
| - |
Yes. |
55:20
|
| - |
And she says to him, I'd rather talk |
55:21
|
|
directly with the, the nun. |
55:23
|
|
(laughing) |
55:25
|
| - |
So that's how your connection with Janis Ian started? |
55:27
|
| - |
Through that. |
55:29
|
| - |
Really. |
|
|
And she says, he sends her, |
55:31
|
|
I said if you're gonna do something with her, |
55:35
|
|
send her Woman's Songs, and so she writes back, |
55:36
|
|
and she said, what's this phrase? |
55:39
|
|
And she said, I am the rays of the rising sun. |
55:46
|
|
Well you know, and, it opens the album or something. |
55:48
|
|
It's a poem I've written, or it was something |
55:53
|
|
I've tucked into Women Prayer, Women's Song ritual. |
55:55
|
|
It wasn't a song, it was a text. |
55:58
|
| - |
Yeah. |
56:00
|
| - |
The poem prayer. |
56:01
|
|
It was God speaking, she says, |
56:02
|
|
this ain't in my, this isn't in my Bible. |
56:03
|
|
And I wrote back and says it's not in my Bible either. |
56:06
|
|
I said, it's a text, you know. |
56:09
|
|
And so I thought if you're gonna be that snippy |
56:14
|
|
I'm not gonna, I just, and you know I just wrote. |
56:16
|
|
She writes back, I can't get it out of my mind. |
56:18
|
|
And she said, I had this melody, |
56:22
|
|
can I have permission to set it to music |
56:24
|
|
for your thing, or whatever, you know. |
56:27
|
|
Set it to music, she was separate from. |
56:30
|
|
And I wrote back, I said, I don't let people do this |
56:31
|
|
because, I said, well let me think about it. |
56:34
|
|
I don't know. |
56:40
|
|
And she wrote back, she said. |
56:41
|
|
I'd like to share with you whatever I have |
56:43
|
|
and if you don't like it, it's over, we tear it up. |
56:45
|
|
And it goes out, and so I wrote back, okay. |
56:48
|
|
And it began, (mumbles) and then I have, |
56:52
|
|
a gazillion emails from her, we're just soul friends. |
56:57
|
|
We are literally soul friends. |
57:00
|
| - |
Yes. |
57:02
|
| - |
I've been to her house, five days, in Nashville, |
57:03
|
|
love her, she is crazy, and wonderful, |
57:07
|
|
and generous, and spiritual, |
57:12
|
|
and totally at times inappropriate, |
57:15
|
|
on the other times, just so, I just love her. |
57:19
|
|
She is a friend, she is supportive of me. |
57:24
|
|
She, I know she's just terrific. |
57:28
|
|
We did a program together. |
57:31
|
|
We also did a thing, |
57:33
|
| - |
Is this |
|
| - |
the New Jersey Broads? |
57:35
|
| - |
Yes |
57:36
|
|
(laughing) |
57:37
|
| - |
That's her title. |
57:39
|
| - |
Yeah |
57:40
|
|
(laughing) |
57:41
|
|
(drowned out by laughter) |
57:42
|
| - |
Two broads, Two Jersey Broads, and the Holy Spirit |
57:43
|
|
or something |
57:44
|
| - |
Yes. |
|
| - |
Yeah she did that for the NPR, |
57:45
|
|
was it the NPR, the rest or something. |
57:46
|
|
Nashville, something out there, I don't know. |
57:50
|
| - |
I think it was Scarlett Bennett. |
57:52
|
| - |
Yes it was at Scarlett Bennett, |
57:53
|
|
but it was, we did that, but it was televised |
57:54
|
|
for NPR thing out, down there in Tennessee. |
57:57
|
| - |
Oh, okay, yes. |
58:01
|
| - |
So that was separate from, |
58:02
|
|
but we held it at that, and then I had an event there. |
58:03
|
|
And so I said, |
58:06
|
|
you're talkin' theology, and I'm talking music. |
58:07
|
|
(laughing) |
58:10
|
| - |
But that's like she was very, |
58:11
|
|
she came to my house, when she was passing through, |
58:13
|
|
she said, do you have a washing machine? |
58:16
|
|
I said, yeah. |
58:19
|
|
She said I have some dirty, can I come and see you, |
58:21
|
|
I have a concert, big concert. |
58:23
|
|
So she comes over, with this tons of wash, |
58:25
|
|
and I here she's got her wash in my washing machine. |
58:27
|
|
And we're talkin' theology, |
58:30
|
|
and she says, what's the, where'd you get this, |
58:32
|
|
oh let me just get this, she goes online, |
58:33
|
|
you know, unbelievable, we're just flippin' |
58:35
|
|
back and forth, you know. |
58:38
|
| - |
Yeah. |
58:39
|
|
So I just love her, |
58:40
|
|
and then she finally, long story short, |
58:43
|
|
she said, |
58:46
|
| - |
yeah, this is great. |
|
|
She says, |
58:47
|
|
can I, I'm gonna, I'd like to pose to my publishers, |
58:51
|
|
I do audio books, can I do your autobiography? |
58:55
|
|
And so I don't know if you've seen that? |
58:59
|
| - |
I have yes. |
59:00
|
| - |
Okay, |
|
| - |
can you imagine, she sings all 26 songs. |
59:02
|
| - |
Oh yes. |
59:04
|
| - |
And she says, calls up, I don't know about this one, |
59:06
|
|
about Christ, this Jesus one, Christ one. |
59:08
|
|
She said what are my Jewish friends gonna say? |
59:11
|
|
I said well don't do it. |
59:13
|
|
She says, I don't care what my Jewish friends say. |
59:14
|
|
(laughing) |
59:16
|
|
You know you're a singer of songs, |
59:19
|
|
you know, Jewish people sing Christmas carols, right. |
59:20
|
|
But she had so closely identified |
59:23
|
|
with all of it, she had to like, you know, |
59:25
|
|
I gotta check out is this okay. |
59:28
|
|
So she took me to the Audies, you know, |
59:30
|
|
because we got an Audie nomination for |
59:34
|
|
Yes, I saw that. |
59:36
|
| - |
Did you? |
|
| - |
And so here I am with her for three days |
59:38
|
|
in the village you know, wondering around |
59:40
|
|
having the best time, you know. |
59:42
|
|
Oh gosh, |
59:44
|
| - |
what was that like MT? |
|
| - |
Well the event itself is ridiculous. |
59:45
|
|
I mean it's just not my thing, you know. |
59:48
|
|
I mean, well there were nice people there, |
59:50
|
|
and they're all lovely, and I love |
59:51
|
|
everybody's happy, and all this glitz. |
59:52
|
|
But I loved, you know, walkin' around the village |
59:55
|
|
and in the park, and you know with her |
59:56
|
|
and just, you know. |
59:58
|
|
And then we, there was this second hand store |
1:00:01
|
|
that they have in Manhattan, |
1:00:03
|
|
you know, the nuns, and everything's cheap. |
1:00:05
|
|
And I could see little trinkets. |
1:00:06
|
|
I liked that part, you know, |
1:00:08
|
|
(laughing) |
1:00:09
|
|
and just having nice meals together, |
1:00:10
|
|
and just, but she put me up in a beautiful place. |
1:00:13
|
|
In fact the place got comped by the owners, |
1:00:16
|
|
you know, this hotel, they said look Janice |
1:00:18
|
|
we're gonna do this for you, |
1:00:21
|
|
will give you free, give her free room. |
1:00:22
|
|
And beautiful suite, I said this is ridiculous. |
1:00:25
|
|
But is was so nice, cause they were Catholic, |
1:00:27
|
|
I'm a nun, you know. |
1:00:29
|
| - |
Yes. |
1:00:30
|
|
And Janice is Jewish so, |
1:00:31
|
| - |
To the bone. |
1:00:33
|
| - |
Yes, yeah. |
1:00:34
|
| - |
Jewish lesbian. |
1:00:35
|
| - |
Yes, yes. |
1:00:36
|
| - |
And had married to this wonderful gal, |
1:00:38
|
|
and they're just so, and then she's so good to me. |
1:00:39
|
|
When she was here, she drove over to my house. |
1:00:44
|
|
Your case need changing, so she threw |
1:00:46
|
|
the guitar into her van and drove it back to Nashville |
1:00:49
|
|
and restrung the whole thing, and fixed it. |
1:00:51
|
|
My Mark nun had it shipped back. |
1:00:53
|
| - |
Seriously. |
1:00:55
|
| - |
I mean stuff like this. |
|
| - |
She does it all the time, you know. |
1:00:57
|
|
You're shoes were terrible so she sends |
1:01:00
|
|
me a credit card for Fleet Feet. |
1:01:02
|
|
Buy yourself some shoes. |
1:01:03
|
|
Throw 'em out, I said we don't throw out shoes. |
1:01:05
|
|
I said it's got another ten years to go. |
1:01:07
|
|
You shouldn't wear more that these. |
1:01:09
|
|
But yeah, I mean she, I love her, she's like. |
1:01:11
|
|
She's just |
1:01:12
|
| - |
I'd love to see |
|
| - |
the two of you together. |
1:01:14
|
|
It must be a hoot. |
1:01:15
|
| - |
it is so funny. |
1:01:16
|
|
It truly is, we gotta do more things. |
1:01:17
|
| - |
Yes. |
1:01:19
|
| - |
And she agreed to so something here for and with me. |
1:01:19
|
|
I'm hopin' to do something related to this chair |
1:01:22
|
|
you know. |
1:01:25
|
| - |
Yes. |
|
|
And so we'll see what we can do. |
1:01:26
|
|
She's kinda tryin' to zone down a little bit, you know. |
1:01:28
|
|
So I'd love, if I had more, I've had more lives. |
1:01:33
|
|
And I'd love to go back to Nashville. |
1:01:36
|
|
She'd have me there in a heartbeat, you know. |
1:01:39
|
| - |
Yeah. |
1:01:40
|
| - |
There's so many things that I do wanna do. |
1:01:41
|
| - |
Yes. |
1:01:44
|
| - |
And so to awaken this part of the music again, |
1:01:45
|
|
for Dan Polis, who's name should be |
1:01:48
|
|
put in lights forever in history. |
1:01:51
|
|
What he has done, not only with Loving You, |
1:01:54
|
|
I don't know if you've seen that CD, |
1:01:58
|
|
you cannot leave it out. |
1:01:59
|
| - |
I have it now. |
|
|
That and Breath of the Spirit |
1:02:01
|
|
that just came out with people singin' the songs |
1:02:02
|
|
in ways that I could have never imagined |
1:02:05
|
|
them to be interpreted. |
1:02:07
|
|
Elizabeth Von Trapp, you know |
1:02:09
|
| - |
Oh |
|
|
has gotten one of each of the albums. |
1:02:14
|
|
She's done three. |
1:02:16
|
| - |
Wow. |
1:02:18
|
| - |
Malcolm Moore has done three already. |
1:02:18
|
|
She's gonna do another. |
1:02:22
|
|
There's just other people to, |
1:02:24
|
|
and then in like Cynthia Clawson, |
1:02:26
|
|
if you're into the movement with, |
1:02:27
|
|
more, what is this, the Gospel kind of, |
1:02:33
|
|
Southern Gospel, there's people from there. |
1:02:35
|
|
And it's just so, it's like people |
1:02:39
|
|
have different faith traditions. |
1:02:41
|
|
Choosing a song that fits so that, |
1:02:43
|
|
it is called The Sacred Folk Song project. |
1:02:46
|
|
People of different faith traditions singing these. |
1:02:49
|
| - |
What is it like to have, to hear them singing |
1:02:53
|
| - |
Well it was startling at first. |
1:02:55
|
| - |
Yeah |
1:02:57
|
| - |
you know. |
|
| - |
Oh, gosh, I know I've had it. |
1:02:59
|
|
He sends me, and it just tears me up, |
1:03:03
|
|
he's just working on this now, |
1:03:05
|
|
he sends me like the first mix of this, they've got 'em. |
1:03:06
|
|
It's so different, you know, |
1:03:09
|
|
it startled members of my community, |
1:03:12
|
|
the first one, some of the interpretations. |
1:03:13
|
|
And I'm sayin' look, this song is out there. |
1:03:15
|
|
It's on these CD's for the nuns singing. |
1:03:20
|
|
Get over it. |
1:03:24
|
|
(laughing) |
1:03:24
|
| - |
You know, I have to get over it, |
1:03:27
|
|
at first it was, it was now I'm just so excited |
1:03:28
|
|
to hear what someone's gonna do, you know. |
1:03:31
|
|
Or sometimes it's very different. |
1:03:34
|
|
Sometimes it isn't, but you know. |
1:03:36
|
|
It really is different. |
1:03:38
|
|
It's exciting, it's wonderful, you know. |
1:03:40
|
|
And the thing is, because we're a community |
1:03:44
|
|
of missionaries, and we're not large, |
1:03:48
|
|
and we don't have a lot of people, |
1:03:51
|
|
and so all the music is in my basement. |
1:03:53
|
|
And all the orders are filled, |
1:03:56
|
|
and everybody orders with me, |
1:03:58
|
|
and I'm the only person living there. |
1:03:59
|
|
And you can have a, an assistant. |
1:04:01
|
|
You know, I have someone who helps me with WLI |
1:04:03
|
|
eleven hours a week, on two different days, |
1:04:07
|
|
who's at my house now, so there goes Wednesday. |
1:04:09
|
|
(laughing) |
1:04:12
|
|
But, you know, it just all works out. |
1:04:13
|
| - |
Yeah. |
1:04:16
|
| - |
It just, you do, you know, that's how |
1:04:17
|
|
my recreation is, I think I'll go to my music. |
1:04:19
|
|
I think I'll go do this. |
1:04:20
|
|
I think I'd better finish this book |
1:04:21
|
|
which they're waiting in London as we speak, |
1:04:23
|
|
that I ship it. |
1:04:25
|
| - |
It sounds like they reimagined your songs. |
1:04:27
|
| - |
They did. |
1:04:29
|
|
They absolutely did. |
1:04:30
|
| - |
Yeah. |
1:04:32
|
| - |
They really did. |
1:04:32
|
|
And bout the stories, and what they did |
1:04:34
|
|
with the ones they brought to the studio in Albuquerque. |
1:04:36
|
|
This one guy who's won a lot of Grammys for his video. |
1:04:39
|
|
He filmed an interview with them |
1:04:43
|
|
with three basic questions. |
1:04:46
|
|
Why did you choose this song? |
1:04:48
|
|
Cause they choose the song they identify with. |
1:04:50
|
| - |
Oh is that right? |
1:04:52
|
| - |
They're sent several samples |
|
|
Yeah. |
1:04:54
|
| - |
And they tell about how this really spoke to me. |
1:04:56
|
|
This just transformed me. |
1:05:00
|
|
Or this meant so much, at least |
1:05:02
|
|
that's what he's telling me, you know. |
1:05:04
|
|
And so the plan had been, |
1:05:07
|
|
except back in the day when he started this |
1:05:09
|
|
there were more funds available. |
1:05:11
|
|
There's not much funding around the two. |
1:05:13
|
|
And it's like dirt cheap, |
1:05:17
|
|
he's just simply the studio and so, |
1:05:18
|
|
he's now, like he's donating and selling off |
1:05:20
|
|
some of his stuff, and the studio guy, |
1:05:24
|
|
and if money comes in we, they send it. |
1:05:26
|
|
He gives it to him. |
1:05:28
|
|
So it's just bit by bit, you know. |
1:05:30
|
| - |
Yeah. |
1:05:32
|
| - |
But he's determined to do this because he loves the songs. |
1:05:33
|
|
They never made it into the Catholic tradition. |
1:05:36
|
|
And I think that's what just stoked him. |
1:05:39
|
|
To just get out there. |
1:05:42
|
|
I never went Catholic, I went New York, you know. |
1:05:44
|
|
I went through the New York studio |
1:05:48
|
|
and Ten Pan Alley thing. |
1:05:50
|
|
And so, but even so, it just was never, |
1:05:53
|
|
everything is real churchy in the church. |
1:05:56
|
|
And he, just says, these should be out there. |
1:06:00
|
|
And what's so lovely is, it's true, |
1:06:04
|
|
they're not in the confines of that. |
1:06:06
|
|
I mean my best supporters were the Mennonites |
1:06:08
|
|
and the Amish and just different peoples of, |
1:06:11
|
|
you know, the Moravian's, and the Presbyterians, |
1:06:13
|
|
and the whatever, you name it. |
1:06:16
|
|
And the Africans, and the other cultures, |
1:06:19
|
|
and so that's actually who I am, you know. |
1:06:21
|
|
So it's so perfect. |
1:06:23
|
|
It just settled itself. |
1:06:26
|
|
So these now are just a different way to listen to them. |
1:06:27
|
|
And you know, there's these three teenage girls |
1:06:32
|
|
from the Midwest, from some Iowa, |
1:06:37
|
|
somewhere in the middle of nowhere. |
1:06:40
|
|
And their father's a musician. |
1:06:42
|
|
And he trained them to sing in a madrigal style, |
1:06:44
|
|
acapella, and they've done two songs, |
1:06:49
|
|
that oh my gosh, with their intertwining |
1:06:52
|
|
pure girl voices, you know, so lovely. |
1:06:55
|
|
So you have the young and you have the old, |
1:06:58
|
|
and you have, you know, soloists, |
1:07:01
|
|
and choirs and it's kind of fun. |
1:07:03
|
| - |
This is remarkable. |
1:07:05
|
|
Oh I so look forward to hearing this. |
1:07:07
|
| - |
Yeah, you're gonna walk over with me to my house. |
1:07:09
|
|
And we're gonna go in and get those and give it to ya. |
1:07:11
|
| - |
Yeah, let me end by, just, |
1:07:15
|
|
we talked about your reimagining songs. |
1:07:18
|
|
In the end what do you think if we think |
1:07:20
|
|
about the reimagining movement, the conference. |
1:07:22
|
|
Do you have a sense about what you think |
1:07:24
|
|
the legacy of it was? |
1:07:25
|
| - |
That's interesting. |
1:07:30
|
|
Legacy is an interesting word. |
1:07:32
|
|
So I'm not sure if I can answer that. |
1:07:36
|
|
I could say impact, |
1:07:39
|
| - |
Say that, yes. |
1:07:40
|
| - |
Impact, |
1:07:41
|
|
and even that, is somehow, |
1:07:44
|
|
what we need to do, okay here's what we need to do |
1:07:46
|
|
in order to do, and what you're doing, |
1:07:49
|
|
God bless you this is wonderful. |
1:07:51
|
|
We need, we feminists need not just to leave |
1:07:55
|
|
it to the historians out there, |
1:07:59
|
|
but we need to look, |
1:08:01
|
|
and my talks now go between, |
1:08:04
|
|
okay two men and a bird. |
1:08:07
|
|
Which Rosemary Ruether's, |
1:08:09
|
| - |
Yes. |
1:08:11
|
| - |
Okay and I give her credit every time. |
1:08:11
|
|
I gotta pinpoint these comments |
1:08:13
|
|
between two men and a bird. |
1:08:15
|
|
I changed the middle, but it's John the 23rd, |
1:08:17
|
|
and now Francis, okay. |
1:08:20
|
| - |
Oh yes. |
|
|
And how Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, |
1:08:22
|
|
the two men and a bird, |
1:08:24
|
| - |
Yes. |
1:08:26
|
| - |
And then, so for me, if we need to look at that period, |
1:08:27
|
|
a team of, whatever, and highlight |
1:08:33
|
|
what the women's contribution has been, |
1:08:37
|
|
and identify the different components. |
1:08:40
|
|
Cause we're all over the place. |
1:08:44
|
|
That's because, it's emerging. |
1:08:45
|
| - |
Yes. |
1:08:47
|
| - |
But if we wait to history to look back |
1:08:48
|
|
and put the pieces together, they may put |
1:08:49
|
|
them together in ways, they wouldn't be sort of wrong, |
1:08:53
|
|
but they're not, we see things differently. |
1:08:56
|
|
And so you can see, we can see the impact |
1:08:59
|
|
if reimagining, that would be just one event. |
1:09:02
|
|
But there are other events, that history |
1:09:04
|
|
will miss that maybe, in the big picture, |
1:09:07
|
|
and settle others, but you can say, |
1:09:09
|
|
okay at this period of time, there was, |
1:09:11
|
|
A, B, da, da, da, there was da, da, da, da. |
1:09:14
|
|
It was among the Mennonites, it was among the Methodists, |
1:09:15
|
|
it was among the, and the Lutherans. |
1:09:18
|
|
Even when you get down to all the Lutheran traditions, |
1:09:20
|
|
even the most conservative shifting. |
1:09:25
|
|
So we need to sort of do that. |
1:09:28
|
|
Like, and like rubbers, like Defecting in Place, |
1:09:30
|
|
that got that, that was a big one, |
1:09:33
|
|
that got a grant, |
1:09:34
|
| - |
That was a great book. |
|
|
And got people in there, but it doesn't fit |
1:09:37
|
|
any framework, it doesn't fit ritual, |
1:09:40
|
|
it doesn't fit these theologies. |
1:09:43
|
|
So you can't do it, so we've ran |
1:09:46
|
|
with the Bible theology and ritual and spirituality. |
1:09:48
|
|
Cause those are the ones, you know, |
1:09:51
|
|
and then also certainly application, injustice, |
1:09:54
|
|
works of mercy, et cetera |
1:09:56
|
|
But, I think we need to look at this whole thing. |
1:09:58
|
|
So like people are coming up to me, |
1:10:00
|
|
do you have like the thing with Ludmillas stuff, |
1:10:02
|
|
and do you have, and I've said Geez, you know, |
1:10:05
|
|
all these movements, I've had a finger in a lot of them. |
1:10:08
|
| - |
You have. |
1:10:10
|
| - |
And I don't even think that way. |
1:10:11
|
|
But when people are coming up to you, |
1:10:13
|
|
do you have this, do you have this. |
1:10:14
|
|
I said somewhere in my basement is Ludmilla. |
1:10:16
|
|
Somewhere in the second floor, is somebody, |
1:10:18
|
|
I just found some and said what is this doing here? |
1:10:21
|
|
So I'm trying to like have, |
1:10:23
|
|
I'm trying to put the piles, that relate to each other |
1:10:25
|
|
in the places, and then put them in where they need to go. |
1:10:28
|
|
So they're safe |
1:10:32
|
| - |
Yes, yes. |
|
|
Because they're not safe with me, you know. |
1:10:33
|
|
And it's so important. |
1:10:35
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And so what you're doing is you're getting |
1:10:37
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a perspective, and you're taking the time |
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to do this, you're getting the backing to do this. |
1:10:42
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And I would recommend to you that |
1:10:45
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this is vitally important, you get that in place. |
1:10:47
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But then you look for maybe some grant money |
1:10:50
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to do the bigger picture, you know, |
1:10:53
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of which I would love to be a part of. |
1:10:55
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Not that I wanna get involved, |
1:10:57
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because I don't have time |
1:10:59
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I get it. |
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I can actually hand you stuff, |
1:11:01
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that are, we have like, even a conference so to speak, |
1:11:03
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of some of, if we're still, those who are still alive. |
1:11:07
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Like we asked, |
1:11:12
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what is my name? |
1:11:16
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| - |
Letty Russell. |
1:11:17
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Thank you so much. |
1:11:18
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That, yes, yes. |
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Letty was so who was key |
1:11:20
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yes |
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and so close to us |
1:11:22
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yes. |
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And here to us, you know. |
1:11:23
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We don't have a lot of time left. |
1:11:25
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Are you talking about getting together |
1:11:29
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people from reimagining? |
1:11:30
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No, no not reimagining |
1:11:32
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Bigger than that. |
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Finish your reimagining |
1:11:33
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yes, yes. |
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I'm talking about, because the role ready. |
1:11:35
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Russell played the role that, |
1:11:39
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the role that, shoosh-la-fear, |
1:11:40
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Rensa played, even though she's got, you know, |
1:11:43
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we've got to, while they're still living, breathing, |
1:11:45
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at least look at, maybe if we get them then that's okay. |
1:11:50
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But then we look at people who |
1:11:53
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objectively could look at those people. |
1:11:55
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You know |
1:11:57
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Yes |
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and say, this is an important one to make sure |
1:11:58
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that you get into this stream of whatever, |
1:12:00
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while we have a chance to put these, |
1:12:03
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resources, make these available, you know. |
1:12:05
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Because now a days so much is available. |
1:12:09
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And what makes it into a conversation, or whatever, |
1:12:11
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are those who initiate the search. |
1:12:16
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Yes. |
1:12:19
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They can go anywhere, for anything, |
1:12:19
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which is good and also terrifying. |
1:12:22
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Because you're not evaluating what is really substantive, |
1:12:24
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and what is commentary around the substantive, you know, |
1:12:28
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and I think that's really, that's really something. |
1:12:33
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You know, |
1:12:36
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yes. |
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There's a lot of this, |
1:12:38
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this is a good time because the clock is ticking. |
1:12:41
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Excellent. |
1:12:45
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And we don't have |
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too much more left. |
1:12:46
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Right. |
1:12:47
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I wanna ask one final question |
1:12:48
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sure. |
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And the way you've been doing this all along |
1:12:49
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but i wanna ask this directly, |
1:12:50
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what does reimagining mean today? |
1:12:52
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What needs to be reimagined or is being reimagined? |
1:12:56
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Just about everything. |
1:13:00
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(laughter) |
1:13:01
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Just about everything. |
1:13:05
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First of all we need to take seriously, |
1:13:09
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we need to reimagine, |
1:13:12
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we need to reimagine, so if you start too big |
1:13:17
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you've lost people, so you gotta start here. |
1:13:20
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But we're also, we need to take seriously |
1:13:22
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not just looking at imaginary programs |
1:13:25
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about outer space, about other things happening, |
1:13:30
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we need to reimagine our reality |
1:13:35
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that it validates these outer space, |
1:13:39
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endless space, |
1:13:46
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what might be out there. |
1:13:48
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The puniness, the puniness and limitations of humanity. |
1:13:50
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The short timeline we have, |
1:13:57
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that have in fact defined and determined everything. |
1:13:59
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So you know the theory of everything of what's his name, |
1:14:05
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(drowned out by laughing) |
1:14:08
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we need to reimagine everything. |
1:14:09
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And if you reimagine it, it's safe |
1:14:13
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well because you can say it's imagination. |
1:14:15
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But at the heart when women reimagine |
1:14:18
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is deep truth, because the imagination |
1:14:21
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is the stuff you use to express and hold |
1:14:23
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something that is the kernel. |
1:14:27
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It's like Paul recorded, |
1:14:29
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the disposable believable. |
1:14:32
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| - |
Believable. |
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Good your reading, |
1:14:35
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I love that one. |
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`I say it all the time that there's something, |
1:14:37
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that's wrapped, you wrap, there's something believable. |
1:14:41
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And I don't know anymore what that is. |
1:14:44
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Because I say faith and belief are very different you know, |
1:14:47
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there's the beliefs you hear, person of faith, |
1:14:51
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even if you don't know what you believe. |
1:14:53
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It's not about believing. |
1:14:55
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It's about a deep conviction where faith resides. |
1:14:57
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So we need to get back to what is the disposable, |
1:15:00
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what might be believable, and what can we let go of |
1:15:03
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in all of this, so you apply that principle |
1:15:07
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it would be to reimagine is to safely visit everything. |
1:15:10
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If we could imagine, if we can use the imagination |
1:15:15
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now in a looser way like we would, |
1:15:20
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like a child imagines, an imaginary world. |
1:15:23
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We need to reimagine an imaginary world |
1:15:26
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based on actually, real facts. |
1:15:29
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| - |
Yeah. |
1:15:32
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To say, imagine if this might really be true. |
1:15:33
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Let's imagine this might be true. |
1:15:36
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And then what if it were. |
1:15:38
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What would be the world we want to reimagine. |
1:15:39
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Okay what would be the kind of world would we wanna live in. |
1:15:41
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Then it safely allows us to do that. |
1:15:44
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So in a sense I'm playing with that in my |
1:15:46
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courses and in my programs. |
1:15:49
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That's what we're doing, it's not specifically saying it. |
1:15:51
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But you're opening my mind to saying |
1:15:53
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maybe we're onto something, you know, bigger. |
1:15:55
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| - |
Oh yes. |
1:15:57
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Plus, |
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Because now we want to, it's a safe word. |
1:15:59
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And I love, you know, Einstein's, |
1:16:02
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what is it, it's not facts, |
1:16:07
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it's theory or facts will get you |
1:16:09
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from here to here to here to there, |
1:16:12
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but imagination will take you anywhere. |
1:16:13
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| - |
Yes |
1:16:16
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And to me, |
1:16:17
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Yeah, |
1:16:18
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It's sort of the anywhere reality of yeah, |
1:16:19
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Yeah |
1:16:25
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So. |
1:16:26
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| - |
That's a great place to stop I think. |
1:16:27
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That's wonderful, wonderful. |
1:16:29
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