Barry Norris interviewed by Alex Harris, 2015

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-	What I'm thinking, Barry, is maybe we get started	0:00
	just in a conversation with, okay, we'll, making sure	0:06
	the date today is November 19th, is that right, 2015?	0:09
	I'm Alex Harris,	0:16
	and I'm here with Barry Norris,	0:17
	who printed an exhibition that	0:20
	is now in the Rubenstein Library for the book,	0:24
	"Gertrude Blom: Bearing Witness".	0:27
	I was thinking about these prints this morning	0:32
	and seeing them again now,	0:36
	recognizing that Barry was	0:40
	and is one of the great master printers in this country	0:43
	and maybe in the world, and this is a unique collection.	0:48
	So Barry, where do we start in terms of	0:52
	this group of prints?	0:57
	How was it made, where was it made?	1:00
	What type of prints are these,	1:06
	just kind of basic information?	1:07
-	We we want to talk about	1:10
	how the selection was made also	1:11
	and where this all came from.	1:13
-	Sure.
	What, see, I realize that a lot of	1:17
	that information is in this book.	1:19
-	Right.	1:20
-	But let's start there
	at least to orient ourselves.	1:22
-	Sure.	1:24
	And so you had first seen the work	1:25
	of Gertrude Blom at ICP prior to a show of your own work,	1:27
	I'd left a portfolio with one of the people	1:32
	that worked there, I can't remember his name now,	1:35
	but I think maybe Bill Ewing or something like that.	1:37
	And he had shown it to you as you were looking for	1:39
	other photographers to perhaps do a book,	1:43
	unknown photographers who you might use for	1:48
	publication-	1:51
-	We had just formed
	the Center for Documentary Photography,	1:53
	and we had a book publishing program,	1:55
	which meant we were looking	1:58
	for unique bodies of work to print	1:59
	that said something about photography, documentary-	2:01
-	Right.	2:06
	Yeah.	2:07
	And the, so that's where it all began, I think.	2:08
	And you, very shortly	2:09
	after that came down to Mexico, you visited Na Bolom	2:10
	and looked at, looked at the archive,	2:14
	and then later came back with Margaret to do the selection,	2:16
	which was a pretty long	2:20
	and arduous process going through all of the negatives,	2:22
	making you actually, you actually had	2:25
	contact prints made of all of the negatives,	2:30
	which hadn't been done up to that time, which was also	2:33
	a unique part of this process of documenting Trudi's work	2:38
	and gave you the ability to make this selection.	2:40
	So yeah, and I was only partially involved	2:43
	in that part of it, I think.	2:48
-	As I remember, there was a volcanic eruption in the middle	2:51
	of this thing that we sent down,	2:54
	a photographer, Tim Burns,	2:58
	to do all the contact printing.	3:01
-	Right.	3:02
	And then you had inches of dust on everywhere-	3:04
-	Right.	3:06
	Yeah.	3:07
	That was a major pyroclastic eruption in the state	3:08
	of Chiapas and whatever that year was.	3:10
	It must have been 1982,-	3:12
-	Yeah.	3:14
-	I believe.
-	But yeah we set the scene for Na Bolom.	3:15
	What, you know, why would you have an archive at Na Bolom,	3:19
	but have thousands of negatives	3:22
	that had never been contacted.	3:25
	What was the archive like? What was the darkroom like?	3:26
	Why was it there? Why was the archive there?	3:29
-	Well, it's, it was the home of Gertrude Blom,	3:32
	and so all of her work was naturally stored in her home.	3:35
	But being a provincial city in southern Mexico,	3:40
	quite difficult to get the materials to	3:44
	make photographic prints or to even to develop film.	3:51
	And I think earlier in Trudi's work,	3:55
	she had sent off her film	3:57
	to Mexico City to have it developed.	3:59
	And there were people in Mexico City	4:01
	who helped with printing.	4:03
	And I'm not sure if anyone was making actual	4:08
	contact sheets at that time.	4:10
	Eventually, Na Bolom, which was the name of Trudi's home,	4:12
	they put in a small dark room, were able to buy	4:16
	some equipment, a small	4:20
	and larger that was capable of printing medium format,	4:21
	black and white negatives.	4:25
	And they began to do some of that work.	4:27
	But by that time, there had been a large body of black	4:30
	and white film that had been exposed and developed	4:34
	and was being stored there at Na Bolom	4:38
	that didn't really have contact prints,	4:40
	but they began to keep up with the newer film	4:43
	that was being shot by Trudi.	4:45
	So when I arrived, the archive was, you know,	4:48
	there were, it had been organized to some degree	4:51
	and there were some contact prints,	4:58
	but many of the negatives were just sitting in sleeves.	5:00
	They might have been assigned a number,	5:03
	they might have had some information connected	5:05
	to them or maybe not.	5:08
	And so I began working on that process, so trying to keep up	5:09
	with the process of contact printing the film	5:15
	and organizing it and putting it away.	5:19
-	So take us back to your, not a lot of the history,	5:20
	but your arrival with Joan to Na Bolom	5:25
	and what your jobs were,	5:29
	and then how you got into this job as, as what were,	5:31
	what was your job title there, if you had one?	5:34
-	Well, I think the reason for us going was to work in the,	5:37
	for me to work in the dark room.	5:41
	And the year prior to our arrival there,	5:43
	which was 1977, in 1976, we had come down	5:46
	and visited Na Bolom, had a tour, realized	5:51
	that there was a dark room,	5:56
	that there was this amazing archive of photographic material	5:57
	and that Trudi might need a printer,	6:00
	someone to work in her archive.	6:03
	So thinking about it later, we wrote to Na Bolom, and then,	6:05
	and I proposed myself as a,	6:10
	as somebody who could do that work for her.	6:15
	And they accepted us, and Joan came along.	6:18
	She, we were worried at first that	6:21
	she wouldn't have a place,	6:24
	but there, as it turns out,	6:26
	that there was a volunteer program	6:27
	where people came from all over the world	6:29
	and did all kinds of different work.	6:30
	So Joan immediately fell into work in the library.	6:32
	And then within a year we were both doing administrative	6:36
	work and, and each in our own separate areas	6:39
	of specialty within the house.	6:42
	But we were just young people looking for a place, wanting	6:44
	to learn to speak Spanish	6:49
	and find some opportunity to get outta the United States.	6:50
	That's how we made it there.	6:56
-	So you were already a photographer, already a printer?	6:59
-	Yes. Yeah.	7:03
	I had gotten interested in photo, well,	7:04
	actually been interested in photography from a	7:06
	pretty early age.	7:08
	Had a small camera, learned to process black	7:11
	and white film as a teenager.	7:14
	And when I went to college, I took a couple	7:16
	of courses in photography	7:18
	that were available at Trinity University	7:19
	and got more involved in the whole printmaking process.	7:21
	And after leaving college, I got a job as a custom black	7:25
	and white printer in San Antonio	7:30
	for a commercial photographic company.	7:31
	So it was a mostly portraiture.	7:37
-	But you know, getting back	7:41
	to this collection of photographs.	7:44
	So we had thousands of contact images made.	7:44
	Margaret and I came down, I think there were two visits	7:48
	where one, where I was on my own, one where we were together	7:52
	to look at a hundred,	7:56
	I mean, you helped us sort of find the core images,	7:58
	but I think we uncovered a lot of other things.	8:03
	And we came up with a selection both for the book	8:06
	and for the exhibit that was gonna be at ICP.	8:08
	So just take us back to	8:11
	after that, once we decided on the images, these are two	8:13
	and a quarter negatives.	8:17
-	Yes.	8:19
	Mostly they're two and a quarter square negatives shot	8:20
	with a Rolleiflex twin lens, reflex camera.	8:25
	Prior to her getting that camera, which I think was	8:28
	around 1950, she had been using another camera,	8:32
	an Agfa Camera that, I don't even know the name	8:37
	of the model, but it shot two and a quarter by three	8:41
	and a quarter, I think.	8:45
	And there are some images in this collection	8:46
	that were shot with that camera.	8:49
	So that was during the 1940's probably,	8:50
	that camera was purchased in maybe 1941	8:52
	or something like that, right after Trudi arrived in Mexico.	8:56
	But she had been with the media, that medium format	8:59
	since the beginning, never used a 35 millimeter camera.	9:02
	And in later years, she actually shot everything	9:06
	with two cameras, two twin lens reflex cameras, one loaded	9:08
	with black and white film,	9:12
	and one loaded with color transparency film, so.	9:13
-	Something that I,	9:17
	and I know I'm interrupting you	9:19
	to answer the question I asked,	9:20
	but I'm just, I think it would be interesting to,	9:21
	for people who are looking at this print, these prints	9:25
	to know about her mastery of knowledge	9:27
	of photography itself, the technical side, the cameras.	9:31
	Where was she as a photographer in that regard?	9:36
-	Well, I think she just had a very basic	9:42
	knowledge about photography.	9:43
	She knew how to pair shutter speeds	9:46
	and F stops and was able to read light.	9:51
	But she largely relied on assistants over the years	9:55
	to come up with an exposure for her,	9:57
	and then set the exposure.	10:00
	She did the focusing and framing of the image,	10:02
	but very little interest in the technical	10:05
	side of photography.	10:07
	Never processed film herself, never did any printing,	10:08
	but was just an avid photographer in	10:12
	that she did it everywhere that she went.	10:15
	She always had her cameras with her.	10:17
	She did it pretty consistently for many, many years	10:19
	and developed this enormous archive of work.	10:25
	But she was also someone who didn't really,	10:30
	I think, seek perfection in her work.	10:35
	She just did it.	10:39
	She just walked up to her subjects,	10:40
	aimed the camera, and took a picture.	10:44
	And one of the things you'll notice in a lot	10:47
	of these photographs, especially when she's photographing	10:48
	people, is the angle of view,	10:51
	because it's a waist level finder.	10:53
	And she was a very short person, about five feet	10:56
	or five feet one, all, a lot of the pictures are kind	10:59
	of looking up at the people that she's photographing.	11:03
	I don't know if I answered that question.	11:11
-	No, you did.	11:13
	And I, but I,	11:14
	I interrupted you about the earlier question I asked,	11:14
	which was essentially	11:17
	how were these prints made?	11:22
	Just sort of take us through the people	11:23
	looking at these prints.	11:25
	It'd be interesting to know something about your process.	11:26
	And these are silver prints-	11:29
-	Right.	11:32
	Well, you mean my particular technique of printing black	11:33
	and white, how I approach black and white photography?	11:37
-	Well, I think photographic, I think some people looking at	11:40
	these won't really have had any experience in the dark room.	11:41
	But what I remember about you,	11:45
	and you can correct me if I'm wrong,	11:49
	but I was one of those people who would	11:50
	probably take sometimes 10 to 20 minutes	11:53
	with an image under the enlarger	11:57
	where I would burn and dodge.	11:59
	And these were negatives	12:01
	that were sometimes badly exposed, unevenly exposed.	12:04
	And what I remember about you is that you had this theory	12:08
	that you carried out, which was,	12:11
	if you could find the right exposure, the right paper,	12:12
	the right sequence of developers	12:15
	and timing, that you would not need	12:18
	to do any burning and dodging.	12:20
-	Well, yes.	12:22
	And it is true that I tried to avoid using that technique	12:23
	for the most part.	12:26
	Whenever there were areas of	12:28
	a negative that had problems that might require like	12:29
	dodging or burning, like uneven development	12:34
	of the negative, I would do it.	12:37
	But I didn't feel that I needed to	12:40
	work on individual areas of the image, that I would try to	12:45
	interpret the density of the negative,	12:49
	the relative densities of a negative into the	12:53
	range of dark to light in the print,	12:58
	so that the very thinnest areas of the negative	13:02
	would be allowed to print as near too black	13:05
	as possible, but without losing some,	13:11
	any of the detail in there as,	13:15
	as much as it was possible.	13:18
	And it is true that oftentimes Trudi's negatives were	13:20
	underexposed, so they would be very thin, difficult	13:24
	to draw an image out that had any kind of	13:28
	contrast to it.	13:31
	So I try to find the perfect balance of exposure	13:34
	and development, the right developer,	13:40
	the right amount of time in the developer so that	13:44
	the tones would fall into place as much	13:48
	as I could make them do, so that when the blacks	13:52
	fell into place, also the highlights would be	13:58
	just coming in.	14:01
-	See, I remember you using often two developers,	14:04
	and I believe the first developer was the faster,	14:07
	harder developer, the more contrasty one,	14:12
	and then when the blacks came in,	14:15
	you would put it in the second, softer developer	14:17
	that would allow the grays and the other tones to come in.	14:19
-	Yeah, something like that.	14:22
	And I'm, it's been so long actually, right,	14:23
	since I've been in the dark room	14:25
	and that I've used that kind of technique.	14:27
	But yes, one developer,	14:29
	which was a lower contrast developer,	14:32
	and I'm not sure if it was the way you	14:34
	said or-	14:36
-	The other way around-
-	Opposite, so that we, I started out mm,	14:37
	That could have been doing the lower contrast developer	14:41
	so that we, I would know that I was going to get	14:42
	the highlights brought in without having	14:48
	burned out highlights.	14:51
	And then from there, drop it into	14:52
	a more high contrast developer that would,	14:56
	because what happens in a higher contrast developer,	14:58
	of course, is it works on the darkest areas first.	15:00
	And the longer you leave it in, the more,	15:04
	the more they drop down the,	15:07
	and then the higher, the lighter tones come in later.	15:10
	So I tried to find some balance there between the exposure,	15:14
	the kinds of developers,	15:19
	and the amount of time that the paper	15:20
	was left in the developer.	15:24
-	I guess I'm smiling now	15:25
	because I'm thinking about the level	15:27
	of artifice in any book or exhibition.	15:29
	And here you have a woman who, I don't know, made 80,000,	15:33
	I can't remember the number,	15:36
	but she made a lot of photographs in her lifetime.	15:38
	We went in and chose a hundred extraordinary images.	15:40
	You went in and made these prints that look,	15:45
	they are master prints,	15:48
	and in a way we, she realized her vision through our	15:51
	interpretation, yours as a printer,	15:56
	mine and Margaret's as editors.	15:59
	And I bring that up, I think	16:02
	because one sees a book like this	16:04
	and one imagines in a body of work,	16:06
	one imagines a photographer with a particular vision.	16:08
	And I see this as more like a film	16:12
	that she shot over a lifetime.	16:16
	And then we came in as editors	16:20
	and really helped her realize that vision.	16:22
-	Yeah.	16:25
	To show the work in a beautiful way so	16:27
	that it wouldn't just be	16:28
	lost in some file cabinet somewhere.	16:33
	It is interesting though that there, you know, there's a,	16:36
	there was another, there fine art photographer in,	16:38
	in San Cristobal de las Casas.	16:42
	Well, actually there was a couple,	16:46
	but the one I'm thinking of is Marcy Jacobson,	16:47
	an older Jewish woman from New York who had moved	16:48
	to San Cristobal in the '50's	16:50
	and was also very involved in shooting what amounts	16:52
	to documentary photography at the time.	16:55
	She had maybe a little bit more bent towards an artistic	16:59
	vision of her work, but,	17:02
	and she worked very hard to achieve	17:05
	beautiful prints in her own dark room.	17:09
	She was very interested in the technical process herself.	17:11
	But when it came to making her book finally in the end,	17:15
	it fell apart in a way	17:20
	because whoever was responsible for the publication	17:22
	and the overseeing, the printing	17:27
	of the book failed in the end.	17:29
	And so somehow the work was kind of lost in a way.	17:32
	It wasn't represented in a way that would	17:36
	over, you know, live over time.	17:40
	And she was very disappointed by that.	17:43
-	Right.	17:45
-	Which was, you know, really-
-	Oh, I can imagine.	17:47
-	I don't know if you ever saw that book.	17:48
-	No.	17:50
-	But they, Trudi
	and Marcy were kind of competitors in a way	17:52
	over the years there.	17:54
	But I feel like we also, we managed to do something	17:56
	really beautiful with her work, make a wonderful selection,	17:59
	and then take it all the way through to	18:04
	making the exhibition prints	18:08
	and finally publishing a book, which is	18:09
	what really is gonna live on and be seen by more people.	18:12
-	You know, sitting here with you, I'm thinking	18:16
	that we could spend the next 30 minutes talking about prints	18:18
	and printing, and I do wanna get back to that	18:21
	because that's what's sitting in front of us	18:24
	and your achievement in making these prints.	18:27
	I'm just thrilled that this body of work	18:30
	is not in some humid environment somewhere in Mexico	18:34
	or wherever in the world, or being dispersed	18:38
	and sold that it's here, it's intact.	18:41
	And as a photographer myself, the ultimate	18:43
	realization of my work	18:47
	and of any work has, from my point of view,	18:50
	is the photographic print.	18:52
	And so this is, this is an amazing collection,	18:54
	but that's a preface to saying that I, I find myself wanting	18:58
	to talk about Trudi, Gertrude Blom as a woman, as a person.	19:01
	And I'm thinking about the way in which	19:04
	certain people I've known over a lifetime	19:06
	have personalities, have a private life that's quite	19:13
	distinct from their voice and their work.	19:19
	And there was something that drew you	19:24
	and Joan to Trudi from the beginning	19:27
	and something that drew me to her.	19:29
	Maybe you could talk about that a little bit	19:32
	and then maybe we can talk about the other side.	19:33
-	Trudi was a difficult person.	19:37
	I mean, people were attracted to her, who just initially,	19:39
	because she presented such a dramatic public presence,	19:44
	she was an unusual looking person.	19:51
	She was an eccentric in many ways.	19:55
	She lived her whole life as an eccentric.	19:58
	So that came out immediately as soon as you met her.	20:01
	But she had a hard time with people, I think,	20:07
	was difficult for many of us.	20:14
	The young people who came to work with her, to put up with	20:17
	this kind of character that she had,	20:22
	which was extremely demanding, very judgmental.	20:23
	I mean, I can use a lot of adjectives to describe her	20:28
	in her way that she related to all of us.	20:33
	And then she had her public persona too, which was also very	20:36
	forceful and dynamic.	20:40
	And that's where people oftentimes who didn't know her	20:42
	initially became attracted to her was through her activism.	20:48
	Because in her later life, especially in the years	20:51
	after we arrived, what she was really interested	20:54
	in was environmentalism.	20:57
	She had become a real advocate for	21:01
	saving the tropical rainforest, one of the very,	21:04
	very strong voices.	21:07
	And so a lot of us, as young people, a lot	21:09
	of people were attracted to her for that reason.	21:12
	That's not why Joan and I showed up in Na Bolom.	21:14
	We came because of the wanting to be in Mexico	21:17
	and wanting to find a place where we could live and work	21:21
	and learn to speak Spanish,	21:25
	but also for me to be involved in photography,	21:27
	to continue my printmaking work	21:30
	and to continue my work as a photographer	21:32
	and have some space to do that.	21:34
	But Trudi became just a very important part of our lives.	21:37
	She was our family for many years.	21:41
	But as with a lot of family members, you struggle.	21:44
	You love them and you, and you hate them sometimes	21:48
	and vice versa.	21:53
	But you always seem to be able to come back to that place	21:54
	where you, you find what it is	22:00
	that you care about.	22:02
	So, I mean, what, what do you remember?	22:06
	I mean, you must remember also her difficult nature.	22:09
-	Well, you know, in some ways I hesitate to talk about this	22:15
	because I think the point I really wanna make is that	22:19
	I feel like there is an essential intuitive	22:23
	side to her work that connects with the best part of her.	22:29
	And that that's what we were able to bring out.	22:33
	It's like she said in one of our interviews,	22:36
	Orchan Keen said about her, her heart is good.	22:41
	There's a, at some level, at which she was really trying	22:45
	to do something important and good.	22:48
	And I think-	22:51
-	Well always.	22:52
-	Yeah.
-	I mean, she was always working for some greater good.	22:53
	In Europe, it was the anti-fascist movement,	22:57
	you know, as a young leader	23:00
	of the women's socialist movement in Europe when	23:03
	she was still a teenager.	23:06
	I mean, she spent her time	23:07
	since the very earliest years struggling against	23:10
	what she saw as wrong in the world.	23:14
	So however that actually happened, there are many stories	23:18
	that have been told, that was the thrust of her life.	23:21
	So wherever she went, she was trying	23:24
	to do something like that.	23:26
-	So I-	23:29
-	And I think it
	comes out in the photographs and in the book,	23:32
	because you, you know, you do have the essays	23:33
	that were written about who she is	23:36
	and what she was trying to do.	23:38
-	Yes.	23:39
	But I guess I'm just struck by	23:41
	her very difficult personality.	23:45
	She treated me and Margaret well,	23:50
	she treated me maybe better than Margaret,	23:53
	but she was, she was very happy to have the attention.	23:55
	She was very happy to tell her story	23:59
	and have us focused on her work.	24:03
	And I think that, you know, there's a way in which,	24:06
	where I was in my life, where you were in yours and Margaret	24:10
	and Joan, we were prepared to deal	24:13
	with someone like that because we really believed	24:18
	in the project and in the work.	24:20
-	Oh yeah.	24:22
	Well, it, it became clear to me after just a year	24:24
	or so in Na Bolom that my work was gonna be about trying	24:27
	to bring her work more to a broader public.	24:30
	So, and we were lucky enough to be able to do that	24:36
	through contacts with all kinds of people.	24:40
	And you know, to this day, actually, I still am involved	24:44
	with this in one way or another.	24:48
	We just got back from New York where there's a show	24:49
	of Trudi's photographs at the Girls' Club on the lower	24:53
	east side of Manhattan.	24:56
	So we had a, you know, we had a panel discussing Trudi	24:58
	and her work, and there must have been, I don't know,	25:03
	maybe 40 prints, digital prints	25:08
	that have been made in recent years, which were in the show.	25:11
	So it continues.	25:17
	I mean, there's this, Na Bolom still continues to try to,	25:18
	you know, put her work out there and have it be seen.	25:22
	So again, in New York at this stage, which is interesting.	25:26
-	I want to talk with you about	25:30
	that digital versus scanning negatives	25:32
	and printing them versus the way you worked	25:35
	in the dark room.	25:38
	But I guess I just want to go on record for	25:39
	the fact that you flew up from Mexico	25:42
	with all the negatives.	25:47
	You stayed at our house for a couple of months.	25:48
	We had a dark room upstairs,	25:51
	and I remember you toiling away up there during the day.	25:53
	But what was great was at the end of the day,	25:58
	you had these prints in the washer	26:00
	and we'd put them on the drying rack,	26:03
	and the next morning we'd see what the dry down factor was.	26:06
-	Right.	26:10
-	'Cause they looked great
	in the water.	26:12
	They would dry down. You had to, you had to compensate.	26:13
	But we were all part of this process, I think, in the sense	26:14
	that we were responding to what you were doing.	26:18
	You were here to do this particular job.	26:20
	And we talked earlier off mic about the tonality	26:23
	of these prints, which is really unique.	26:28
	It looks like what people used	26:30
	to call gold toning,	26:33
	but in fact, it's,	26:35
	these are silver prints on Portriga Rapid Paper	26:37
	with selenium toning	26:40
	and the very hard water we had at our house.	26:43
	There was iron in the water somehow	26:47
	that all combined to give it-	26:48
-	To give it a special tonality.	26:50
-	Yeah.	26:52
-	A kind of a warmness to it.	26:54
	Right.	26:56
	Which is what you had used also in your exhibition.	26:57
	Yeah, and I loved it.	27:00
	I mean, I had been using a more cold tone paper	27:02
	for Trudi's prints in Mexico,	27:05
	which was kind of the standard.	27:07
	I mean, I think for a lot of people	27:08
	that were doing exhibition prints, that kind of cold tone	27:11
	Ilford Galerie you know, sort of with selenium toner,	27:16
	which made it even a little colder still.	27:21
	But this was a, a new twist to	27:25
	printing her work, which I love.	27:30
-	Well, there's a, there's a generation now,	27:33
	and it'll probably go on for a long time	27:36
	because of places like the Rubenstein	27:38
	that's gonna have these negatives that's taking these	27:40
	silver negatives and scanning them,	27:45
	and which is what you do for a living in your,	27:48
	with your own work.	27:51
-	Yeah.
-	And I wondered if you've ever printed any	27:53
	of these images digitally in that way, where you scan	27:53
	with a high resolution scanner	27:57
	and use Photoshop to adjust it and then print digitally.	27:59
-	Very little of Trudi's work.	28:03
	I haven't really had the opportunity	28:05
	to do any scanning myself.	28:07
	And I think the, the art today	28:09
	is in the scan to begin with.	28:12
	So I mean, if you're gonna do a digital reproduction from	28:15
	black and white negative	28:19
	or color negative, you want that original scan to be,	28:20
	to hold as much information as you possibly can and to,	28:25
	and make some adjustments in the scanning	28:30
	that will improve your ability to make the print.	28:34
	So, you know, for my own work, for my own black	28:38
	and white photography, yes, I've been able to go back	28:42
	and scan negatives that I've printed in the dark room	28:46
	as silver prints and do them again as digital prints.	28:50
	And it's pretty amazing what you can do	28:55
	in digitizing film.	28:59
-	This is like using this opportunity of to	29:03
	proselytize a little bit for digital printing.	29:07
	But I, I have to say that I've reprinted images of mine	29:09
	that I printed in this same manner	29:13
	that were in an ICP show-	29:15
-	Right.
-	Digitally now.	29:17
	And I think the digital print is actually	29:18
	better because I've been able to just bring out	29:20
	so many qualities in the negative	29:23
	that were hidden there in Photoshop.	29:25
	And then the papers and inks are wonderful now.	29:29
	So I'm not saying it's always,	29:32
	I think it can be as good or better.	29:34
-	Well, it gives you tools that you just	29:35
	didn't have in the dark room.	29:37
	I mean, we tried to develop tools in the dark room	29:39
	that allowed us to achieve as much as we could.	29:41
	Some people use dodging	29:47
	and burning, some people use the kinds of techniques	29:48
	that I used with different developers and time and exposure	29:51
	and all of that to achieve the range of tones	29:55
	that we were looking for, the relationship of tones.	29:59
	But Photoshop and digital manipulation	30:02
	of images just gives you many more tools.	30:07
	And then speaking about dodging	30:10
	and burning, of course, when you're dodging under an	30:12
	enlarger, all the light that you allow to fall	30:15
	through your hands or through a cut in a piece of paper	30:20
	hit or if you're burning, they're all	30:23
	burning light and dark.	30:30
	But in Photoshop you can select a range of tones	30:33
	that you burn and it won't burn anything else,	30:37
	even though you touch those other tones with your burn.	30:40
	So that's something	30:43
	that just couldn't be done at all in the dark room	30:44
	with the process of dodging and burning.	30:48
	So you can select shadows, mid tones or highlights	30:50
	and only burn or dodge those areas.	30:53
-	I'm thinking we should take a break and look at the prints	30:57
	and then come back.	31:00
-	I have a question.	31:04
-	Yes.
-	Can you, do you mind?	31:05
	Not at all, please.	31:06
-	No.
-	Can you unpack, like you just said,	31:07
	the art today is in the scan.	31:11
	Can you unpack what you mean?	31:13
	Like what are you doing in the scanning process that is	31:16
	giving you a scan that's like,	31:19
	that you want to work with in the first place?	31:24
-	Well, you can, you know,	31:27
	you can do just a straight scan.	31:28
	And so you, you know, you do a pre-scan and you pull it up	31:30
	and you have a histogram that you, you're looking at	31:34
	that shows that you're not clipping anything on the,	31:37
	on the top end or the bottom end.	31:40
	And you've got basically all the information there.	31:42
	Today there's a lot, I mean, there,	31:45
	scanning technology is changing all the time.	31:46
	And the software that control scanning is changing.	31:49
	And there's different ways, there's different software	31:51
	that allows you to do different things.	31:54
	You can do HDR scanning, you can do all kinds of stuff.	31:56
	But in looking at a negative that let's say has some,	31:59
	is has a, is very contrasty, some very dense highlights	32:02
	and some very thin shadows.	32:07
	There is detail in both areas,	32:09
	but you're trying to, you're trying	32:12
	to bring out the detail in both areas.	32:16
	And so in the scan you can do a lot of that	32:19
	before you actually then go from there to work with that	32:22
	and turn it into a print.	32:26
	So you can open up the shadows in a way that you wouldn't-	32:28
-	This is color and black and white	32:32
	you're talking about.	32:34
-	Color and black and white.
	But I'm particularly thinking of black and white-	32:35
-	Right.	32:37
-	Because in black and white,
	everything is about the range of tones	32:39
	from dark to light.	32:43
	So that's what the whole image is about.	32:44
	Color is different in that you can see	32:47
	detail based on the juxtaposition of different colors,	32:49
	but in black and white, it's all about the relationship	32:53
	of tones and how well you can see things happening,	32:56
	how long of a tonal range you have.	33:01
	And so you can, beginning with the scan,	33:04
	you can do a lot of the work there.	33:07
	The better job of scanning you do,	33:09
	the better final result you'll get in the print.	33:13
	So, and there's a lot that you can do.	33:16
	I, and I'm no great expert on all of this,	33:20
	but you know, I found it, I found that I'm able to do things	33:24
	that I was not able to do in the dark room.	33:29
-	The thing that that strikes me	33:32
	as you're talking is this idea	33:34
	of the Ansel Adams zone system	33:35
	and the fact that certain information in the world in terms	33:38
	of the amount of light reflecting on it, is beyond the range	33:43
	of that particular piece of film to capture	33:48
	unless you do certain things in the exposure	33:51
	and the processing so that you bring all	33:54
	that information into a certain number of zones.	33:56
	And that's really, I think, what's happening in scanning,	33:59
	what you're attempting in scanning.	34:04
	And then it's similar to what happens in camera RAW,	34:05
	where you see there's information in the highlights	34:08
	and information in the shadows that's lost	34:11
	unless you bring those in.	34:13
	And when you open it up in Photoshop,	34:15
	you've essentially done what Adams was trying	34:17
	to tell you to do with a negative.	34:19
-	Sure, and I was very much inspired	34:21
	by the whole zone system-	34:22
-	As bizarre-
-	Mostly people thought of the zone system	34:24
	as a technique that that had to do with the exposure	34:27
	and development of film.	34:30
-	Right.
-	And that's kind of what I'm talking about here in	34:32
	that you're trying to do that with the negative.	34:34
	So I'm trying to apply the zone system in a way	34:37
	to the negatives in getting the scan.	34:39
	Like that's the first step.	34:42
	It's getting the digital negative is the scan.	34:43
	And then from there, but when I was,	34:46
	but when I was working as a printer, I was trying	34:49
	to apply those same ideas to the printmaking process	34:51
	in terms of finding the right exposure	34:55
	and the right development-	35:00
-	In the dark room.	35:02
-	In the dark room
	for the paper print.	35:03
	So it might be that you needed a longer	35:05
	exposure under the enlarger to be able	35:10
	to get those highlights to contain detail,	35:16
	but then that might require a much shorter development time.	35:21
	So it's kind of like what you would do in a,	35:25
-	With a, with a	35:29
-	Negative, with a negative
	when you're shooting it,	35:32
	you might you know, overexpose and under develop	35:33
	or underexpose and overdevelop,	35:35
	which did two kind of opposite things.	35:38
	One of them compresses the range of tones	35:41
	and the other pulls it apart.	35:43
	But there's limitations there, of course.	35:46
	And even Ansel Adams in his life as a printer, you'll see,	35:48
	if you look at his history of printing certain images,	35:52
	the one that I always bring	35:57
	to mind is "Moonrise over Hernandez New Mexico",	35:58
	Hernandez's, New Mexico, that the early prints of	36:00
	that are very light by comparison to the much later prints.	36:04
	So whatever he thought he was doing with the zone system,	36:07
	he just did what pleased him aesthetically in the end.	36:14
-	And I think this really is a lot of the answer	36:16
	to Kathy's question, which is that there is a,	36:19
	there's a technical, there's a capability now	36:22
	of the equipment and the software	36:25
	that allows you to do certain things.	36:28
	But it's really no different than years ago	36:30
	before those tools existed	36:34
	of using your experience, your intuition.	36:36
	I laugh at the idea that	36:40
	digital prints are always the same.	36:44
	And so, you know, you can just push a button.	36:46
	Every time I make a digital print of an image I've printed	36:48
	before I'm looking at it, I'm thinking, well,	36:51
	I think I made a little bit of a mistake-	36:54
-	Totally.	36:56
-	I think I'll change
	it this way.	36:56
-	Sure.
-	All my, all those prints are different.	36:57
-	Exactly.	36:59
	You might come up with something	37:00
	that is very satisfying and save it in that form,	37:02
	but you might come back to it later	37:05
	like Ansel Adams did and say, you know what?	37:06
	I really want this to be a little bit different.	37:08
	I really want to change the relationship of these values.	37:11
	And, and that's what we do as	37:15
	artist, photographers.	37:18
-	What I noticed is I
	see young people now, students,	37:23
	who are very facile in Photoshop.	37:26
	They, I'll go in and I'll be teaching certain tools	37:29
	and they'll say, well, you can do it this way or that way.	37:33
	And they'll have other ways to do it that I'll never,	37:35
	I'm not, I'm probably not gonna go there,	37:37
	but I think we are of a generation that spans light	37:40
	falling on film, film in the, processing that film,	37:44
	film in the enlarger, thinking about photography in	37:48
	that way, and then translating those sensibilities to	37:50
	now to digital printing.	37:54
	But I bring it up mostly	37:58
	because the sensibilities that you used	37:59
	to do this weren't purely looking at some book	38:02
	and following Ansel Adams' zone system.	38:05
	This is really an aesthetic personal achievement.	38:07
	And I think the same way that a, a writer has	38:11
	a particular consistent voice,	38:14
	a consistent way of seeing things.	38:16
	So you believe in that voice and you can kind of relax	38:19
	and listen to it.	38:24
	That's what, that's the way I feel about these prints.	38:25
	Let's take a little break	38:31
	and then we'll look at some prints and come back.	38:32
-	Okay. Sip of coffee,	38:35
-	Sip of coffee.
-	Being in the rivers and sitting on the ground	38:50
	or sitting on a box.	38:53
-	Yeah.	38:56
-	It was a tough lady.
	Yeah, she was really, she was really tough. She did it.	38:58
	And then after that, very soon	39:01
	after that, by 86, 87, she was already beginning to decline.	39:03
	And I don't think that she did any other horseback	39:07
	expeditions after 1986.	39:11
-	Let's sit back down just for a few more minutes	39:14
	with these other mics.	39:16
	Let's see what time we've got here.	39:17
	We're sort of about out of time already, huh?	39:18
-	No, but I want you to finish what, what you want to say.	39:21
	So.	39:23
-	Maybe just five more minutes or so I'm gonna switch back.	39:24
-	Yeah. Okay.	39:28
-	Barry, can you think of
	work or anything that you would want people to	39:32
	know about Trudi as a photographer?	39:36
	I mean, I think maybe one question I'll ask	39:38
	and then I'll, I'll let you think about that.	39:43
	Is the kind	39:46
	of photographer Trudi imagined herself to be, the purpose	39:49
	of her photography, how that may be changed over the years?	39:53
	Because my understanding is that she went in the jungle	39:58
	with her husband, Franz, who was an anthropologist, that she	40:02
	thought of this early on.	40:06
	Well, you, why don't you pick up from this first expedition?	40:10
	Like how did she evolve in terms	40:13
	of thinking about herself as a photographer?	40:15
-	You know, I, Trudi always said	40:19
	that she wasn't a photographer.	40:21
	That she didn't consider herself to be a really a,	40:24
	a technician of photography.	40:29
	She considered herself, I think,	40:32
	to be a photojournalist largely.	40:33
	She considered herself to be a journalist, a documentarian.	40:39
	She was somebody who used photography as a tool	40:41
	to show something to the world.	40:46
	And I'm not sure that that changed much when she became more	40:51
	recognized in a way as	40:55
	what might be considered a fine art photographer,	40:57
	where people were buying her original prints.	40:59
	She just spoke about her love	41:02
	of light, really.	41:07
	That was something that she brought up.	41:11
	It kind of mystified me	41:13
	because I never saw her in that way of like	41:16
	being someone who really considered the lighting	41:21
	of a photograph in deciding what to do.	41:26
	But she always said that.	41:31
	She said, oh, she, she loved to play with light,	41:32
	but I think she was just trying, grasping at a way	41:35
	to say something about her photography when people were	41:38
	demanding that she do that somehow.	41:43
	Do you know what I mean?	41:46
-	I do.	41:47
	And Margaret and I spent, you know, a couple	41:48
	of weeks asking her questions	41:50
	and trying to pull out what it meant	41:52
	for her to be a photographer.	41:55
	And she had a tough time talking about it.	41:57
	And often she would say, if she'd look at a picture,	41:59
	she'd say, I think about the person.	42:01
	I don't think about the print,	42:04
	or I don't think about the photograph.	42:06
	I think about the person.	42:07
	And then she said, I'm always	42:09
	frustrated by my photographs	42:11
	because it never comes out the way I want,	42:13
	or it never says everything I feel.	42:15
-	Right.	42:18
	And I think that's common for all of us	42:19
	as photographers or artists.	42:23
	There's always kind of a, there can be a sense	42:26
	of disappointment in the end that	42:28
	what we did didn't really achieve what we had hoped	42:30
	or what we envisioned somehow.	42:34
-	But you and I, and I think so many other people	42:36
	who are different kind of photographer	42:38
	will look at a picture and will think, okay,	42:41
	this isn't maybe what I saw or felt,	42:42
	but this is something in	42:45
	and of itself that's,	42:46
	that's telling me something I didn't already know or see.	42:48
	And that there's value in that.	42:51
	I don't think Trudi went there.	42:52
-	No, I don't think she really did either.	42:54
	She didn't really consider any of it very much.	42:57
	She just did it.	43:00
	She just was a person that was always	43:01
	being impulsed to do the work that she did.	43:05
	She got up every day with a determination to do,	43:10
	and that went on until the end of her life pretty much.	43:18
	So, you know, we never really got the answers	43:22
	to these questions from Trudi.	43:26
-	I guess I want to end this by just remembering	43:30
	what she said to me, and I put it at the end of my text,	43:34
	but I think it's really, it's the reason	43:38
	that people like us put up with people like Trudi is	43:41
	that it has to do with what you're saying right now.	43:44
	That she had a kind of belief in what she was doing	43:47
	and despite and the cause that she was fighting for,	43:51
	despite her narcissism, despite her difficult personality,	43:55
	she basically said, I fought some of the great battles	44:00
	of the 20th century.	44:04
	I fought against the Nazis and we lost that.	44:06
	I mean, she lost that her part of that battle.	44:10
	I fought to save the rainforest,	44:12
	and I think we're losing that,	44:15
	but you've got to keep fighting.	44:18
-	Yeah.	44:20
-	And there was a way
	in which I think it's so easy now	44:21
	to think there's so many problems	44:24
	and how can I possibly, she was really a fighter.	44:27
-	She was, but I don't really see her as a failure.	44:31
	I see that actually in the end,	44:34
	those fights will be successful, at least on some level.	44:38
	I think more and more people are realizing today in terms	44:43
	of the loss of the tropical rainforest,	44:46
	which was her last great fight, that it's something that	44:49
	we need to address, that everyone	44:54
	in the world needs to address.	44:55
	And more and more, it's becoming something	44:56
	that people are aware of throughout the world, the danger	44:58
	that we face if we allow the remaining rainforest	45:01
	of the world to just be torn down.	45:05
	So, you know, she was successful in her fights.	45:08
	She was, she'd not personally successful in her fight	45:12
	against Nazis, but the Nazis lost, they lost in the end.	45:15
	And it's universally considered the greatest evil	45:22
	of our times, don't you think?	45:25
-	Yes.	45:29
-	Pretty important.
-	And yeah, she was, she was disappointed in many ways	45:31
	with her life, but she also had a lot of successes.	45:35
	She really did.	45:41
	And she was a loving person.	45:42
	As difficult as she was, we loved her and she loved us.	45:44
	And and she was able to communicate that.	45:48
-	Yes.	45:51
-	As difficult as she was,
	as hard as, you know,	45:53
	as mean-spirited as she could be on many occasions,	45:55
	she was always, she was a person who was always able to	45:59
	apologize and seek forgiveness.	46:02
	So, and there's a lot of people who can't do that,	46:07
	but Trudi could.	46:09
-	Yeah.
-	So we loved her.	46:12
-	I think that's a really appropriate place to end.	46:14
	And we really appreciate you being here today	46:19
	and just giving us your perspective on Trudi	46:23
	and the prints in this collection.	46:25
	Thank you, Barry.	46:29
-	Okay. Thanks for inviting me.	46:29

Item Info

Title:

Barry Norris interviewed by Alex Harris, 2015

Date:

2015

Creator:

Harris, Alex

Contributor:

Norris, Barry

Description:

Oral history recording Alex Harris in conversation with Barry Norris, Gertrude Blom's printer, November 18, 2015. Norris and Harris discuss creating the book, Gertrude Blom: Bearing Witness, Blom's temperament and approach to photography, and Norris's thoughts on digital scanning.
0:00 - Background of book, Gertrude Blom: Bearing Witness.
5:22 - How Barry Norris and Joan Norris became associated with Blom and Na Bolom.
7:00 - Interest in photography and printmaking, early experiences in the profession.
7:40 - Alex Harris's and Margaret Sartor's trips to Na Bolom, for selecting works for book and exhibit at ICP.
8:11 - Blom's photographic equipment.
9:18 - Blom's knowledge of photographic technique, and her methodology.
11:24 - Norris's printmaking technique and approach with Blom's photographs.
15:31 - The "artifice" of representing Blom's work in the book, through the collaboration.
18:48 - Blom's life and personality, her place in the Norris's lives.
22:11 - Blom's personality and ambitions, how she affected Norris's and Harris's lives.
24:25 - Realization by Norris that much of his work has been about bringing Blom's work to the public.
25:48 - Making prints for book, their tonality, the paper and chemistry behind them.
27:44 - Discussion of digital scanning of negatives; Ansel Adams's zone system as it applies to digital scanning; importance of intuition and aesthetic regardless of technology.
39:36 - How Blom's photography changed over the years, how she evolved, her self-perception as a photographer.
43:42 - Discussion of Blom as an impassioned fighter, what she thought of as failures and successes.

Subject:

Blom, Gertrude Duby

Format:

Language:

English

Digital Collection:

Gertrude Duby Blom exhibit photographs

Catalog Record:

https://find.library.duke.edu/catalog/DUKE005969708

Source Collection:

Gertrude Duby Blom exhibit photographs and project records, 1941-2004, 2015

Rights:

No Re-Use

In Copyright

Rights Note:

This material is made available for research, scholarship, and private study. Copyright in this material has not been transferred to Duke University. For reuses of this material beyond those permitted by fair use or otherwise allowed under the Copyright Act, please see our page on copyright and citations https://library.duke.edu/rubenstein/research/citations-and-permissions.

Identifier:

5e9369b2c7607dd17e70255c1611cdd0
005969708
blomgertrude
duke:658595
RL10084-WAV-0001
ark:/87924/r4542pn6f
07b397d7-a078-401a-9d46-e0ade795a385

Permalink:

https://idn.duke.edu/ark:/87924/r4542pn6f

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Barry Norris interviewed by Alex Harris, 2015

Transcript

Item Info

Archive of Documentary Arts

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