Ellen Matheus interview recording, 1994 August 05
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| Stacey Scales | You was here for three years under Lee? | 0:02 |
| Ellen Turner Matheus | Yes, under President Lee. And one day I was going to town and I walked up to Lee Hall. I mean, I was on the bus, I got on at my house, walked up to Lee Hall. The bus stopped to let a White gentleman on, and the driver said, "Will you please get up and go to the rear and let this man have your seat?" And I got up, but I got off and I went back home. Within that year, also I went to try on a garment that I liked at Annette's in town, and the clerk put me in the broom, bucket, dust mop room to try the garment on. And of course I didn't buy— I tried it on, but I didn't buy the garment. And on another occasion, I'm trying to think what happened. Oh, yes, fountains in Wilson's on the Main Street downtown, one was painted black and one was painted white. | 0:03 |
| Stacey Scales | One what? | 1:22 |
| Ellen Turner Matheus | The fountain, to drink. | 1:23 |
| Stacey Scales | Oh, really? | 1:25 |
| Ellen Turner Matheus | Inside the store. And anybody Negro going in the store had to go to the Black fountain and Whites would drink at the White fountain that was painted from the floor, up, white. | 1:25 |
| Stacey Scales | Oh really? | 1:37 |
| Ellen Turner Matheus | And Black. Yeah. And mom always told us, "When you go into Wilson's, never go to the Black fountain, drink out of the other fountain." | 1:38 |
| Stacey Scales | Where was your mother from? | 1:47 |
| Ellen Turner Matheus | Kentucky. | 1:49 |
| Stacey Scales | And she was— | 1:50 |
| Ellen Turner Matheus | She was born and bred in Kentucky. | 1:50 |
| Stacey Scales | What made her believe that— | 1:53 |
| Ellen Turner Matheus | Well, oh, back in those days, I mean, we were treated terribly. I mean, Negroes, even on trains and buses. Mom was very light, she could pass for White, but she wasn't. She would have to be very careful. Daddy finally got a car and drove us to town, and around and about. And during the time when I was around eight years old, maybe I was about nine, FAMU began burning down some buildings, and because of the teaching of students to be maids, and butlers, and yard people, and farmers, and they wanted a higher education as other colleges had. And we lived in the area where some of the buildings were burned, so we slept during the day and stayed up all night to protect our house so it wouldn't be burned. | 1:54 |
| Stacey Scales | Why were they burning them? | 2:59 |
| Ellen Turner Matheus | They were burning them down, getting rid of FAMU as much as possible, due to the fact that we're the students. They said these were students who were burning them down, they didn't want to be maids, and butlers, and yard people. You follow? | 3:01 |
| Stacey Scales | Right. | 3:17 |
| Ellen Turner Matheus | Uh-huh. So finally getting into high school age, we decided to pack up and leave. We did, we went to Detroit, Michigan and lived. Finished Cass Tech and then from there on we went our various ways. | 3:17 |
| Stacey Scales | Was the north much different than the south? | 3:33 |
| Ellen Turner Matheus | Oh yes. Oh definitely, yes. Yes. Yes, yes, yes. During our high school days in Detroit, Michigan we went to Cass Tech. We did some night work in sewing. Uh-huh, my sister and I were the only Negroes in the class of White women because of our knowledge of sewing and the neatness of making garments. And we learned an awful lot like that. Although we were in the school in the daytime, we also had a class at night, a special class. | 3:36 |
| Stacey Scales | Right. | 4:17 |
| Ellen Turner Matheus | Uh-huh. | 4:18 |
| Stacey Scales | Back here, when you were coming up, what was the relationship between the university, or the institution here and the African-American community? | 4:18 |
| Ellen Turner Matheus | Well, we were kept pretty much close to home. We didn't get out, we didn't mingle too much with people. We were afraid really. Yes, uh-huh. | 4:31 |
| Stacey Scales | Okay. | 4:41 |
| Ellen Turner Matheus | And mom and dad kept us pretty much at home. I could cite some more instances, but I'm going to have to make a run. I have an appointment. That's about all I would have to tell you anyway. | 4:41 |
| Stacey Scales | Okay. | 4:59 |
| Ellen Turner Matheus | Those are the incidents that I recall. | 4:59 |
| Stacey Scales | Okay. | 5:04 |
| Ellen Turner Matheus | Might help. I don't know. | 5:09 |
| Stacey Scales | That's all you want to share? | 5:10 |
| Ellen Turner Matheus | Yeah. | 5:11 |
| Stacey Scales | Okay. | 5:11 |
| Ellen Turner Matheus | [indistinct 00:05:17] and he started a conversation while I was at the machine [indistinct 00:05:24]. And the main lady came in and heard the conversation and the lady [indistinct 00:05:33]. It was Friday, and she asked me, she said, "Thelma, is your mother White?" And I said, "No." And she said, "Is your father White?" I said, "No." And then she said, "Well, you know, we have caught up, we don't need anybody else anymore, and so we're going to give you your paycheck. We don't have anymore work for you." | 5:28 |
| Stacey Scales | So they fired you because you were— | 6:04 |
| Ellen Turner Matheus | Yeah, because they found out I was a Negro. And I went back to the agency down the street from Macy's department store. And Arnold, the boss, I told him of the incident and he immediately found another place about two blocks up from this place on Park Avenue. And he sent me there. They were Jewish. And during the summer I'd leave school and go there to work, do all the decorations. | 6:05 |
| Stacey Scales | Mm-hmm. | 6:39 |
| Ellen Turner Matheus | Uh-huh. So they were that way everywhere, I guess. | 6:43 |
| Stacey Scales | Right. | 6:45 |
| Ellen Turner Matheus | Uh-huh. That was the only incident that I recall. Up in age, you get sunburn— See, I'm 84. | 6:45 |
| Stacey Scales | Right. | 6:53 |
| Ellen Turner Matheus | I'm forgetting everything except a few incidents I told you about. | 6:57 |
| Stacey Scales | Yeah. | 7:01 |
| Ellen Turner Matheus | Okay. All right. | 7:04 |
| Stacey Scales | Mm-hmm. | 7:04 |
| Ellen Turner Matheus | I'm sorry I'm going to have to run. | 7:05 |
| Stacey Scales | Okay, it's all right. Well- | 7:05 |
| Ellen Turner Matheus | I'm on business for my brother who's [indistinct 00:07:11] still. | 7:07 |
| Stacey Scales | I think I may have called your brother. | 7:10 |
| Ellen Turner Matheus | Yeah, yeah. He wouldn't have anything. His memory, he's 86, and he has Alzheimer's. | 7:16 |
| Stacey Scales | Oh, okay. | 7:21 |
| Ellen Turner Matheus | And he's diabetic. | 7:21 |
| Stacey Scales | Right. | 7:22 |
| Ellen Turner Matheus | So I have some business to attend to for him. | 7:23 |
| Stacey Scales | Okay, thank you. | 7:25 |
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