William Crumpton interview recording, 1993 May 26

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Chris Stewart	Good afternoon, Bill.	0:05
Bill Crumpton	Good afternoon.	0:07
Chris Stewart	This is Bill Crumpton and I'm going to be interviewing him for the Behind the Veil project. Bill, can you tell me when you first came here to Durham?	0:08
Bill Crumpton	I originally came to Durham in 1965. And I attended, what was then North Carolina College for four years. And I left after 1969. And I spent about nine years in the United States Air Force, not completely by choice, but that's what I had to do. And I returned to Durham again in 1992 to attend graduate school at what is now North Carolina Central University.	0:23
Chris Stewart	Where did you come from when you came to Durham?	0:57
Bill Crumpton	Okay, my original hometown is Sanford, North Carolina, which is approximately forty-one miles southeast of here, which is no great shakes, brick capital of the world.	0:59
Chris Stewart	And why did you come to Carolina?	1:12
Bill Crumpton	Well, I've always loved history and North Carolina College or North Carolina Central University as it is now, had the best history department for what I could afford to go to.	1:18
Chris Stewart	So you came here to go to school?	1:31
Bill Crumpton	Yes, I came here to go to school.	1:34
Chris Stewart	With whom did you come to Durham?	1:35
Bill Crumpton	There were originally six people in my high school class from 1965 that came to college here. And out of the six, only two of us graduated.	1:39
Chris Stewart	So how long did you stay here in Durham than the first time?	1:49
Bill Crumpton	The first time I was here for four years.	1:49
Chris Stewart	So you graduated from—	1:49
Bill Crumpton	Yes, I graduated from North Carolina Central.	1:58
Chris Stewart	You say you were in Sanford, is that where you were born?	2:04
Bill Crumpton	Yeah, Sanford is where I was born, in 1948. And I do remember some of the Jim Crow era by experience. I've seen the signs, I couldn't drink out of water fountains when we went to the movies, had to sit in the balcony. There's one theater in town I couldn't go to. And that's where all the good movies played.	2:08
Chris Stewart	How did that make you feel as a child?	2:36
Bill Crumpton	It was rather humiliating. You got the feeling, "Well, what's wrong with me? Why am I different from the other group, when they can go here, there, or wherever they please, and that there are only certain places open to me." It really made you feel that you weren't completely human.	2:39
Chris Stewart	Did your parents talk to you about that? Or, did you talk to your parents about that?	3:03
Bill Crumpton	Yes, we talked about it. My parents were, I guess you'd say, militant, especially my mother. There was one particular incident. Since we weren't well to do, we couldn't go anywhere for a vacation for a week. So what my parents called them were mini vacations, where we'd drive somewhere on either a Saturday or a Sunday. And one particular Sunday, we had gone down near Wilmington, maybe to the beach or maybe to some historical site because I was always talking to parents and to go into a historical site. And we came back through Fayetteville and we stopped at a drive—in, and we sat there and we waited and waited and no one came out to see what we wanted.	3:07
Bill Crumpton	So finally after—I'd say, fifteen minutes of sitting there and we were all starving because we hadn't eaten, this waitress comes out and she looks at us like something smelled. And she said, "We don't serve Colored people here." And my mother said, "We don't want any Colored people, we want some food." And she turned beat red and just ran back to the drive-in. But that was one of the incidents I remember. I guess I was about maybe ten or eleven, somewhere between ten and thirteen years old at the time.	3:57
Chris Stewart	Did you admire your mother for doing that?	4:33
Bill Crumpton	Yes, I always did admire my mother. She's always a lot more outspoken than my father was. But then it's pretty much the role that a Black man had to play in those days. You couldn't really be threatening. You couldn't really be militant or anything like that because you could have ended up on end of a rope.	4:36
Chris Stewart	Did your father talk to you in private about any of this stuff? Did you have any private conversation?	4:59
Bill Crumpton	Well, I used to go to work with him sometimes. And sometimes he would say things. And really, the only time I ever heard my father use a profane word when I was growing up was when George Wallace was running for president. And there were these three White people trying to get people to sign the petition to put him on the ballot. And they asked my father if he would like to sign that petition. And he said, "You know good and damn well I don't want to be on that petition." Most of the time his strongest word was "Goodness." And when he said, "Goodness," you knew you were in trouble."	5:06
Chris Stewart	Wow.	5:43
Bill Crumpton	It was, "Goodness, you shouldn't have done that." Then, you could look for a spanking.	5:46
Chris Stewart	So did you grow up in the same house for the entire time that you were in Sanford?	5:53
Bill Crumpton	No, in fact, we moved to Brooklyn when I was two or three years old and we came back when I was five.	6:02
Chris Stewart	Brooklyn?	6:07
Bill Crumpton	Brooklyn, New York.	6:09
Chris Stewart	Got it.	6:09
Bill Crumpton	And when we came back, we lived in the same house with my grandmother, which was a big two story house. And I used to love to run up and down the stairs. And then we got a house for our own. We rented the house over near the school and that was—I think, it was three or four room house. I believe there were two bedrooms in it. And it was probably four rooms, probably living room, kitchen, two bedrooms. And me and my sisters shared the bedrooms and my parents of course had their own room.	6:10
Bill Crumpton	Then in 1957 we moved into the house that me and my mom live in now. And it was originally four rooms. And my dad and I built the den and what was my bedroom until I went away to college, and I came back one weekend and my parents had taken my room because my sisters recording. And my room was back in the back of the house near the den. So when my parents wanted to go to bed, they could just walk into the other room instead of going through and letting the guys know that they had gone to bed.	6:49
Chris Stewart	So when you say four rooms, you mean four bedroom?	7:25
Bill Crumpton	No, just four room house.	7:28
Chris Stewart	Okay.	7:30
Bill Crumpton	Four rooms. It was two bedrooms, living room and the kitchen.	7:30
Chris Stewart	And then you and your dad built the den?	7:36
Bill Crumpton	Right. The den and another bedroom. So it turned out to be a three bedroom house with the living room and the den.	7:38
Chris Stewart	That's nice house. So you mentioned that you lived with your grandmother for a while. Did she come and live with you at any time or did you live with anybody else? Anybody?	7:45
Bill Crumpton	No, my grandmother was a very fiercely independent woman. And up until the last years of her life, she stayed in her house by herself. And then when her health got so bad that she had to be put in rest home, she had Alzheimer's. And she would wander to meetings that they hadn't had in fifteen or twenty years, and this was in the heat of the day. And she didn't remember my father. In fact, she thought that I was my father. I was maybe fourteen, fifteen years old at the time. So every time she'd wander off, my Dad would have to take me with him because she thought that I was my Dad.	7:59
Chris Stewart	Oh wow.	8:38
Bill Crumpton	She didn't know who he was and she refused to have anything to do with him. So I would have to convince her to, "Come on, Grandma lets go home," or mother, or whatever it took to persuade her to go home. I would usually talk her into doing it.	8:39
Chris Stewart	Did any people live in your house besides your immediate family at any time?	8:58
Bill Crumpton	One time, one of my cousins lived with us for a while until he got himself on his feet. And then he got his own place and moved in. But he hadn't been out of high school very long then. And he kind of taught me how to box and take care of myself.	9:05
Chris Stewart	You mentioned that your family moved up to Brooklyn and then came back. Do you know that you were very young when they moved? Do you know why?	9:24
Bill Crumpton	I think what may have really caused the move was, for one thing, there weren't too many jobs for my father. And my cousin had gotten him a job in Brooklyn that he took. And then at that particular time, my grandfather had died, whom I don't remember, because I was about two. And from losing my own dad, we were pretty close. I think that, that was easier for him to adjust to the loss of his father, it was to move away. And after three years we moved back. I think the biggest reason we moved back was because I had my own little gang at five, I could beat everyone up in the neighborhood. Plus I was the only African-American child for, at least, four or five blocks around.	9:33
Chris Stewart	Really? I mean you lived in a White neighborhood in Brooklyn?	10:26
Bill Crumpton	Yes. It was a pretty well middle class neighborhood. My dad was what you call the super of the building. He pretty much kept it clean, kept things in working order. So part of the deal was you had an apartment down in the basement that you lived in. We lived down in the basement. And it was strange, I never really saw any other Black children. And people would try to—they would touch your skin to see if it would rub off and all sorts of strange things.	10:30
Chris Stewart	Were you frightened by that? Or, how did you react to it?	11:04
Bill Crumpton	Well, at first I was frightened by it. And the other kids would jump on me and beat me up and I'd run home crying. And my mom said, "Don't you come back here crying. You take care of yourself. You defend yourself." And she said, "Don't fight them fair, if they're bigger than you are, pick up a stick or a rock or throw dirt in the face, do whatever." And that's what I did, so I could beat all other kids up, so they made me the leader.	11:08
Chris Stewart	How many children are in your family?	11:35
Bill Crumpton	There are three children.	11:37
Chris Stewart	Are you the eldest?	11:38
Bill Crumpton	I'm the eldest family. I have two sisters. One sister is four years younger than I am. And the other one is six years younger than I am. I did have a brother who died two years before I was born. So there were originally four children in the family.	11:40
Chris Stewart	Did you ever feel a responsibility for taking care of your sisters?	11:58
Bill Crumpton	Oh, I didn't feel a responsibility for taking care of them. I usually had the responsibility of taking care of them because I was four years older than they were. And in some cases I resented it because I'd rather be on the other side of town playing with my friends because the neighborhood we lived in, there weren't really any other boys for me to play with. So if I wanted to play with my friends, I had to go to other neighborhoods.	12:02
Chris Stewart	Okay. You mentioned your neighborhood, what do you remember about it? Can you define it in any way for me?	12:30
Bill Crumpton	Well, the neighborhood that we lived in, it was a new development. And everybody else in town referred to it as the woods, because it was basically a forested area that they cut a road into and cut a few trees down and built houses in. And everyone said, "I wouldn't want to live in those woods." And, of course, the kids in the neighborhood and some of the kids were my cousins who lived—I'd say, about maybe four blocks away, we loved playing in the woods.	12:37
Bill Crumpton	And next thing we knew there weren't more woods because all the people that wouldn't live in the woods were moving in the woods, so they were cutting the woods down for more houses. But it was—I guess, you could say, working class neighborhood. Or in the times of the '50s when this happened, in the Black community it was probably pretty much considered a middle class neighborhood, because if you basically had a job and you were buying your own house, you were considered middle class, unlike mainstream America. But if you're on welfare, then you were poor. And if professional people such as doctors, they were your upper class in the Black community. But we never were rich, like people thought we were.	13:12
Chris Stewart	Do you go back to Sanford?	14:05
Bill Crumpton	Yeah, I commute from Sanford to here, pretty much every day.	14:13
Chris Stewart	Oh this is the house that you're living in now?	14:20
Bill Crumpton	Yes.	14:21
Chris Stewart	Oh, that's right. So we were talking about that. So how do you think that it's changed?	14:22
Bill Crumpton	Well, most of the people that lived in the neighborhood when I was growing up have moved away. Some of them have moved into more prestigious neighborhoods. Some of the people have died. All the kids, of course, have grown up. And most of them moved away. I moved away too when I grew up. And I spent about seventeen years away from Sanford. Nine of those years in the Air Force. And then, the other eight years I was bumping around trying to find me another career after I got out of the Air Force, which I really wasn't successful in doing. So I decided I would go back to graduate school, like I wanted to before the Vietnam War intruded in my life, and get my master's degree. And then, eventually get my PhD so I can teach on the college level. That was always my dream, which I never did lose. And with the concentration in African American history, this project is a dream come true.	14:27
Chris Stewart	So you see yourself as completing your masters here at Central and then looking for a PhD program?	15:34
Bill Crumpton	Yes.	15:42
Chris Stewart	You want to stay in this area?	15:43
Bill Crumpton	Well, I'll be rather mercenary about it. Whoever has the best scholarship deals where I'll take.	15:44
Chris Stewart	Whoever has it?	15:50
Bill Crumpton	I'll even go to Minnesota and I hate snow.	15:51
Chris Stewart	I don't know if Minnesota has an African American history as far as I know, so that would be very surprising. You talked a lot about the Air Force. Can you tell me something about different kinds of jobs that you've had, since, maybe you graduated from college?	15:54
Bill Crumpton	Okay. Pretty much right after I got out of college, I did join the Air Force, basically, because there was a draft going on then and every third person, or third man I guess I should go on and say, because they never have drafted women. Every third man was selected for the Marine Corps. And your life expectancy in the Marine Corps in Vietnam was not very long. And I just could not see investing money and time into getting a bachelor's degree, going to Vietnam to be killed for a war that I did not believe in, to begin with. I was one of the anti-war activists on campus.	16:16
Bill Crumpton	And when I came back in my uniform about a year and a half later, people were shocked to see me in it. And they made me a medic or dental technician, which I did for four and a half years. Then I let my ex talk me into staying in and accepting the commission. First I was a air weapons controller, I ran jets at each other.	17:02
Bill Crumpton	Then I got out of that due to the fact I was having nervous problems like, waking up in the morning and walking around like a chimpanzee because I was so tense I just couldn't straighten up. Plus, I ran two aircraft out into the Miami to New York Air Corridor and I was terribly afraid that I was going to cause someone to be killed. And I lost my voice, my mouth would move, but no sound came out, so I managed to get out of that. Of course, not completely without having some cost to my career.	17:31
Bill Crumpton	I became recreation director, kind of like your father. It was similar because I was the recreation director for base of three thousand military personnel plus the dependent. So I was planning a recreation program for probably seven to ten thousand people. And it was a pretty tedious job. I can probably identify with your father not being around because it is very time consuming and you're on call all the time.	18:11
Bill Crumpton	Sometimes you do have to go take care of things in the evening. So I can see why he wasn't home a lot. But after I got out of the Air Force, then I got out in the middle of the recession in '78 and there weren't any jobs. So for a year I didn't work, we just lived off the what they call, readjustment bonus. They give you fifteen thousand dollars. After taxes, I didn't have a lot left, but we survived from that until I found a job at Busch Gardens in security. And from there I went to managing a movie theater.	18:43
Chris Stewart	So Busch Gardens in—	19:23
Bill Crumpton	Williamsburg, Virginia.	19:25
Chris Stewart	Okay.	19:27
Bill Crumpton	Because I was stationed at Hampton, Virginia for the first four and a half years. And then the last half of my Air Force career, I was at Myrtle Beach, South Carolina.	19:27
Chris Stewart	So you never went to Vietnam?	19:37
Bill Crumpton	Never. Not even temporary.	19:39
Chris Stewart	Okay. I'm sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt you.	19:45
Bill Crumpton	Well, Vietnam ended in '75. So by the time I got the commission it was pretty much over. I got my commission in '74. And then I forget which month it was. I think it was about May of '75, they withdrew and it was over with.	19:45
Chris Stewart	So then you said you were a security guard in Busch Gardens. And then what was the next thing that you did?	20:02
Bill Crumpton	Okay, then the next thing I managed the movie theater in Charlotte. And from there I went back to Sanford in '82. And I've pretty much been, I guess you could call a pioneer. I was the first Black Pepsi route salesman in Sanford. I was the first Black movie theater manager for Plitt Southern Theatres. And then, I was the first Black supervisor at Federal Molding. And I guess I came along at that time when, "Okay, let's get a token put in here."	20:09
Chris Stewart	Did you feel like a token?	20:45
Bill Crumpton	Oh yes, most of the time.	20:48
Chris Stewart	Can you describe what you mean when you say that?	20:50
Bill Crumpton	Okay. Well they have the affirmative action plan where companies are supposed to have minority members in all positions. So with me having a degree and management experience, I was usually hired and most companies wasn't too bad. I didn't get a lot of pressure. But the last company I had a supervisory position with, there was a year and a half battle just for me to not excel at it. But even just to break even with it, I wasn't given information that I needed like, how many parts are we supposed to make.	20:54
Bill Crumpton	A lot of times with me being third shift supervisor, a lot of times there wasn't enough plastic left out, it was locked up in the warehouse. And finally they trumped up a charge that I left the door open and I was fired for it. And I took them to equal opportunity loss, but I made them spend a lot of money defending themselves.	21:45
Bill Crumpton	But I got that stigma that I was a troublemaker, so I couldn't get any more supervisory positions in Sanford. So I ended up cleaning up the hospital with a degree. And that's probably a good thing because the money wasn't that good and the work was physical. And getting in your forties, you can't do that for the rest of your life. And it kind of prompted me to go back to school. So it ended up putting me back in school at the right time to get on this project. So everything works out, I guess.	22:06
Chris Stewart	A struggle.	22:45
Bill Crumpton	Yes, a struggle.	22:46
Chris Stewart	A struggle. Yeah. Well I didn't know if I want to ask you what your wages were with all these jobs. Can you remember? Some of the struggle to maintain in not a very great time.	22:48
Bill Crumpton	Well, when I was in Air Force, I pretty much had it made, I think I made about maybe seventeen, eighteen thousand dollars a year. Plus I didn't have to pay for housing, I got money for food, money for uniforms. So I guess if you put all the benefits together, I was probably in the twenty-five to thirty-thousand dollar range. Started off making nothing when I was having basic a hundred dollars a month, it's no money. But then they gave you a place to stay and clothes to wear. You never had to decide what color you were going to wear. You always knew it was going to be blue, or sometimes green, occasional tan thrown in. But you pretty much knew what you were going to wear. And last civilian jobs, for a while, I averaged about seventeen thousand dollars a year, so I really didn't lose until the '80s. Then, Reagan era came in and everybody started getting poorer. So that was one motivator to go back and follow the dream that I always had.	23:07
Chris Stewart	Out of these jobs that you've been talking about, which did you like the most?	24:26
Bill Crumpton	I probably liked the recreation director job in the Air Force, because pretty much I worked for the base commander. But most of the time he wasn't looking over my shoulder, as long as I kept everything going according to regulation. And I guess I did a fairly good job of that because we were always the top of the tactical air command. And I guess my second favorite was a Pepsi salesman, because every day I was somewhere different, meeting different people. And once again there was no one leaning over my shoulder.	24:32
Chris Stewart	You like that autonomy?	25:08
Bill Crumpton	Yes, I enjoyed that. I've always been an independent type person, I guess, because I grew up on a dead end street and really had no one else to play with, so I've been alone by myself most of my life. So it doesn't bother me to be out by myself and making my own decisions, which I like that. I really resent for someone to be, "Do it this way and do it that way."	25:10
Bill Crumpton	I guess my least favorite was the job at Federal Molding, it's the third shift supervisor, because I'm pretty much a workaholic. And it's kind hard to have someone make things as difficult for you as they were then. And this was in '87, I'm not talking twenty years ago.	25:31
Chris Stewart	Sounds like they made it really hard for you to succeed.	25:58
Bill Crumpton	They did. They didn't want me to succeed. I think they pretty much hired me because someone said, "Fill that square with a Black person." And then they could always come back and say, "Well we had one, but he didn't work out."	26:00
Chris Stewart	Yeah, that's frustrating. That's a big burden, it seems to me.	26:15
Bill Crumpton	It's a tremendous burden because it's hard enough to go on and do your job then when you have to go digging through files and things, to find out orders, to see if you've overrun this order, or you need so many more parts, or maybe you need to step up the production. But I think the biggest thing that bothered the plant manager was that I had fewer people than any other shift, and we always outproduced the other shifts, because we worked as a team. I didn't have the people work for me, I had them work with me, which makes a big difference. It makes a big difference if you say, "Will you run this for me? And I need this many." Ask, instead of, "I need this many. Do that. Do this." People respond a lot better if you treat them as adults, they appreciate it better.	26:21
Chris Stewart	Sounds like you've developed a management technique with that—	27:22
Bill Crumpton	Yeah, a combination of Air Force and I guess myself reading different styles of management and just adapting them to whatever you need.	27:26
Chris Stewart	Did both your mother and father work outside the home?	27:41
Bill Crumpton	Yes, they both worked. In fact, I never remembered my mother staying home with us. That's why earlier I said that I had the responsibility for my sisters. Up and I guess until I got about maybe ten, twelve, my grandmother would come stay with us during the day or we would stay over at her house. And then after I got a little older, my parents said, "We don't need a babysitter, we've got a built in babysitter."	27:44
Chris Stewart	What kind of work did your mom do?	28:15
Bill Crumpton	At first my mom did domestic work and then she worked in a restaurant, short order cook type. And she became the first Black woman to work in a factory at home called Zocalo. She ran a drill press. And she took courses. And known how to use micrometers. And measure the opening and everything. And she had a very low scrap break. They were really pleased with her work.	28:18
Chris Stewart	You sound like you're really proud of her in that job.	28:52
Bill Crumpton	Yeah, I am, always have been. Well she recently finished high school about maybe five years ago. And she always said she was too dumb to go. And I always said, "Mom, you're not dumb. You used to help me with my homework and all that." And she went on and did it. And she graduated and I was really proud of her. I guess we have this reciprocal pride in each other. And then since my father died five years ago, I guess I'm—by default, the man of the family now. And mom and my sisters lean on me for different things. And I never really try to fill my Dad's shoes because I know I can't. But whatever I can do for them, I'd do. But with me being in school and going away from Sanford so much, I guess I'm not too much help to them. But then the whole family's pretty self-reliant anyway.	28:54
Chris Stewart	But also just knowing that you're there. And that you feel this way has got to be comfort to the rest of the people in your family.	29:52
Bill Crumpton	Like, the song, Lean on Me.	30:00
Chris Stewart	Right. What kind of work did your father do?	30:02
Bill Crumpton	My father, well for years he was the delivery man for a local drugstore. He would take prescriptions to people's houses. I guess, like Dominoes before Dominoes, only it was prescription drugs. And whatever else, people called in and ordered, he'd take it in, collect the money for it, if they didn't have a charge card. And he was making about twenty-nine dollars a week. And I think maybe Mom was making twenty to twenty-two dollars a week. And how they took care of three kids and paid for a house, I don't know. But then everything's relative. Prices have changed a great deal since then. But then he got a job with the city, and he started the sewage plant, and he took courses on how to test the sewage, and keep things running. And then he went to the water plant and that's where he retired from. But it was quite a struggle for him to—	30:06
Chris Stewart	To get the job? To keep them?	31:17
Bill Crumpton	Well, he never had any trouble keeping the job. In fact, he was very well known, very well liked person in Sanford. In fact, the night that he was missing and he had fallen into a lake or what we call clay hole at homes. They make brick there and they dig up this clay and it makes these deep holes and they usually hit underground streams and the holes fill up and he fell in one, in February. He could swim, but hypothermia, I think, is what killed him.	31:19
Bill Crumpton	But when it was reported that he was missing, the reaction of the sheriff's department originally was, "You got to wait twenty-four hours." But the sheriff himself was there and when he heard my sister say who it was, he told them, "Hey, get out there and look for this man." And then, it went out on the radio and people picked it up on the scanners and ended up with, at least, 350 people out there helping us look for him. And then eleven thirty that night his cap floated up and we knew that's where he was. And you could see his hand prints as far down in the water as you could see, where he tried to get out. But he was a very well liked person.	31:53
Chris Stewart	Sounds like it's a hard memory too.	32:41
Bill Crumpton	Yeah, it still hurts sometimes though. I guess it will for the rest of my life. But we were real close after all. In fact, he was the one that really let me know. I was considered an adult when he brought me up to North Carolina College and we took all my bags and things up to the room on fourth floor. And got the last load up and he shook my hand and he said, "Son, you're on your own."	32:47
Chris Stewart	Oh, what a wonderful thing for your father to do.	33:15
Bill Crumpton	Then, you really knew that, "Hey, I'm a man."	33:21
Chris Stewart	Yeah, yeah. Did either your mom and dad tell you any stories about their lives from when they were younger?	33:23
Bill Crumpton	Yeah. Well my Mom was pretty much an orphan. Her mother died when she was, I think, maybe, four years old. And her dad was like the man in the old Temptations song, "Papa Was A Rolling Stone." He just did not want to have any responsibility for my mom and her brother. There were just two of them. So they got farmed out from one branch of the family to the other until she was about maybe sixteen. Then she went to work as a domestic worker for a woman.	33:38
Bill Crumpton	And then, somehow she and my dad met each other after he came from the Army in World War II. But they have told me quite a few stories of how they grew up. And my Dad and my Grandmother used to tell a lot of stories about that side of the family. What I never could figure out was, well my grandfather was from Alamance county, there's a branch of the family there that spells their name with an O. But there was a Ralph Crumpton at UNC playing basketball. The way I really uncovered this other part of the family, when I was in the Air Force, the guys asked me if I had a brother going to UNC and I said, "I don't have a brother." He said, "Well you need to watch one of their basketball games." And I did. And sure enough, there's a 6'3" version of me playing basketball. I don't think he ever finished UNC, but they're from Alamance County around Burlington.	34:21
Bill Crumpton	And my grandfather, he evidently never talked about his family or anything because my grandmother used to tell me all these stories about him after they got together, but nothing before. And my grandmother was from Union County down by Charlotte. And that's where the Cherokee comes into the family because her grandmother was a full-blooded Cherokee. And they both moved to Lee County, and met, fell in love, whatever. And then, my Mom and Dad were both from Lee County. And they met after he got out of the army in 1946 and got married that year. And he was seven years older than my Mom.	35:19
Chris Stewart	Oh, Wow.	36:06
Bill Crumpton	But they were together for forty-two years until he died. And I won't say they always got along. But what two human beings don't have some disagreement about something. But usually his way of handling it was, he would leave. She would be in the other end of the house fussing and he'd just slip out the door and drive off. I guess it kept him from losing his temper. And I'm sitting back there watching TV. And she'd come back and she'd see that he was gone and she got on my case about something.	36:08
Chris Stewart	Oh no. Take it out on you.	36:40
Bill Crumpton	Yeah, but nothing really abusive. But I guess, she just had to vent that temper somewhere. And I guess I was the safest one to do it, because my sisters were never around then.	36:41
Chris Stewart	Well, Bill, I'm going to just stop the interview.	37:00
Bill Crumpton	Yeah, you just stop.	37:00
Bill Crumpton	Testing one, two, three. Testing one, two, three. And that was the problem.	37:04
Chris Stewart	We're continuing an interview. My name is Kris Stewart and I'm interviewing Bill Crumpton for the Behind the Bail project. Bill, I'd like to ask you about family gatherings. Were there times when your whole family would come together to celebrate?	37:10
Bill Crumpton	We occasionally all got together at Christmas time. Some of the family lived in New York and some of the family lived in North Carolina and a few other locations. But unfortunately about the only time everybody got together was when there was a funeral. I guess most families are that way, but we kept saying that we would have a reunion, but we never got around to it. And now there's just so few of us left that it's easy to have a reunion.	37:29
Chris Stewart	Yeah. So unfortunately the occasions that you generally all got together were not happy occasions, but sad occasion.	38:01
Bill Crumpton	No, except for when everyone got home for Christmas and that wasn't really the rule, that was more of an exception.	38:10
Chris Stewart	Can you remember any specific time?	38:18
Bill Crumpton	When my aunt died in 1961 and when my grandmother died in 1962 or '63, that was about the last time that everybody got together.	38:22
Chris Stewart	Everybody from where?	38:43
Bill Crumpton	Everybody from New York and everybody from Sanford.	38:43
Chris Stewart	And where did they stay when they came?	38:49
Bill Crumpton	Well, my grandmother's house was still standing in, so somehow an uncle stayed over there, and some stayed at our house, slept on couches, on the floors, wherever. I don't remember anybody staying in a motel room at all. And then, there were friends of the family that would had extra rooms that some of them slept in. We also had some from Philadelphia whom I haven't seen since my grandmother died. And I think that most of them have passed now too.	38:53
Chris Stewart	You mentioned when you were talking about your grandmother, that she had Cherokee blood. She was part Cherokee?	39:31
Bill Crumpton	Yes she was.	39:39
Chris Stewart	Did she tell you about her Cherokee relatives at all?	39:40
Bill Crumpton	Yeah, she used to tell me stories about her great-grandmother. And stories about how things that had happened when she was in Union County growing up. One story I remember was, she told about the Catamount, which was a name for a wild cat or a cougar, is what we know it now. Supposedly, it was in the woods and that was so all the kids wouldn't go play in the woods. And it turned out someone had a steel in the woods that they didn't want the kids to find. But she used to tell me a lot of stories. I spent more time with her than probably any of the other—well, my baby sister spent a lot of time with her also, because she was the last one to start school. And she and my grandmother would go to everyone's funeral in town. And she'd go to the library with my grandmother where she worked. And so, when she passed, I guess, me and my baby sister missed her more than my middle sister did, because she wasn't as close to her.	39:44
Chris Stewart	Was she proud of her Native American heritage?	40:52
Bill Crumpton	Oh yeah. She was very proud of it. Well, of course, that was back before the days of Black pride, when everybody used to try to emphasize their either White heritage, Native American heritage, or whatever they had in them. And she used to also tell me that my grandfather's great, great grandfather or great-grandfather—I never can remember straight, was a White man who married a Black woman. And that was where the name Crumpton came from, which I guess is. Well, it's a rare name. And it's even rarer for African Americans to have that name. It's something like 250 families in United States.	40:55
Chris Stewart	With the name Crumpton?	41:50
Bill Crumpton	Yes. Especially spelled with the U, which is the uncommon spelling. The common spelling is with an O.	41:50
Chris Stewart	Crompton.	41:57
Bill Crumpton	Yes.	41:57
Chris Stewart	When you were growing up, were there things that your parents drilled into you to learn?	42:03
Bill Crumpton	Well, I guess the biggest thing that they drilled into us was that we should be proud of ourselves and we should always try to do the best we could do. And we should never let anyone run over us, Black, White, whatever. Just stand up for your rights. Especially, my mother used to really drill that in. My father, I guess, because he was an African American man, had to play a slightly different role. No, I don't remember anyone called him uncle, but everybody called him Perry. All the White people in town knew him by Perry. It was never Mr. Crumpton or anything like that. It was just plain Perry. And like I said earlier, he was very well respected in the community by Blacks and Whites.	42:13
Chris Stewart	When you say that, especially your mother throughout this sense of being proud of who you are, can you think of any examples for when an incident, when she did something like that?	43:07
Bill Crumpton	Well, one time I had gotten into a fight at school and I had to stay after school and they never told us what time we were supposed to leave, so me and the other guy were just kind of passively sitting there. And of course at that time I had a paper route and of course I couldn't run the paper route from the schoolyard. And my Mom ran the paper route and then came over and told me to come home regardless of what the teachers said. And she called the teacher up and really blessed her out for keeping us. And I guess she was getting on me because I didn't ask what time we were supposed to leave. But during those days you didn't really question what your teacher said. They should have said, "You stay an hour or whatever," but they just forgot to. It's probably just a mix up. But she was furious.	43:21
Chris Stewart	Yeah. I guess, we can continue on. Now, we talked a little bit about school earlier, mainly about Central, North Carolina College, when you came home. Can you tell me a little bit about the elementary school that you went to in Sanford?	44:22
Bill Crumpton	Okay. I started school in Warren County, or actually I started school in Brooklyn. I started in kindergarten.	44:39
Chris Stewart	That's right.	44:47
Bill Crumpton	Then when we moved back from Brooklyn, I was, of course, promoted to the first grade. But the principal of the elementary school in Sanford wouldn't admit me to school because I was only five years old and I wouldn't be six until January. So my parents and my aunt cooked up another birthday for me, and I started Warren County. And came back to Sanford, second grade. And I went to—well, same school, Wicker, it went from one through twelve. And I remember making pretty good grades except for the ninth grade. I guess it was when puberty set in or something. But anyway, I just didn't care about my studies. And I was making Death Valley grades, below C level, mostly Ds.	44:49
Bill Crumpton	And my parents were constantly getting on me. But I guess being that age, it just didn't phase me too much, rolled off like a water on a duck's back. But my aunt died that year in 1961, and I had promised her we are going up to New York to see her because she had cancer. And I had promised her that my grades would be better when she came back. And you know how kids do. "Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'll tell you anything. So you leave me alone."	45:36
Bill Crumpton	And she died within a month after I made that promise. And it just really stuck with me. And from that time on, I started making better grades, which I could do anyway. I was just going through that little period in my life where I just didn't really care about schoolwork. And in high school I did better. And then when I went to college, I did even better than I did in high school. And then, when I came to grad school, I did even better than I did undergrad. I guess, as you get older and you know more of what you want to do than you do when you are young.	46:07
Chris Stewart	You went to the same school that your father went to, did you?	46:40
Bill Crumpton	Yes.	46:45
Chris Stewart	It was named?	46:45
Bill Crumpton	My mother and father, when they went, it was called Lee County Training School.	46:46

Chris Stewart	Okay.	0:01
Bill Crumpton	Well I did better in grad school than I did in undergrad school. I think that's where I was before we stopped. But I guess being older, really knowing what you want to do.	0:03
Chris Stewart	Then I asked you about the school that you went to and it was the same one.	0:17
Bill Crumpton	Oh yes. It was Lee County Training School when my mom and dad went, but they changed the name because when people moved away, Northern states thought of training schools as being reform schools, and they were skeptical of hiring someone that they thought had been to reform school. So, they changed it to W.B. Wicker after the principal who was also the founder of the school back in, he founded the school I think 1927. And the building's still sitting there, doing nothing but rotting in the way, which is a shame. But it closed. The last class graduated from there in 1969, and my sisters actually graduated from the White high school. They started at Wicker, but they finished, I think it was Sanford Central High then, and it's now Lee Senior High.	0:22
Chris Stewart	Were you around when your sisters had to go to the White school?	1:24
Bill Crumpton	No. Let's see, actually I believe I was. Let's see, yes, I was in the Air Force when they went to school. By me being four years older than my older sister and seven grades ahead of her, I was long gone by the time she finished high school. Well, I was five grades ahead of her. No. Yeah, five grades ahead of her, because I started when I was five.	1:30
Chris Stewart	Did they tell you anything about? Did you talk to them at all about what was like to go there?	2:03
Bill Crumpton	Yes. They had riots, and fights broke out all the time. It was a pretty rough integration. Lee County's kind of racist in nature for some reason.	2:08
Chris Stewart	What did they say about it? I mean, how did they feel about having to go to this school?	2:24
Bill Crumpton	Well, my sisters account on the militant side, and I don't believe that they really wanted to go to the integrated high school. They were both in the band at Wicker, and I don't believe they even joined the band once they changed schools. But it was a lot of community pride with them being in the band. And then this school organized a sense of community, which has since been lost. Everyone's gone on their own separate ways, it's not really a unified Black community anymore. Plus they had urban renewal about 1970, which scattered the Black population in several different parts of town. But the Black community is basically no more. There's a house here and there, areas where hundreds of people living is now maybe a hundred at the most.	2:33
Chris Stewart	What would you say is the difference between when you went to school at Wicker and when your mom and dad went to school at Lee County Training? How was your schooling different from your mom's and dad's?	3:28
Bill Crumpton	It's probably basically the same. I don't think they did as much changing of the curriculum over that time period as they do now. Where now is all these different programs that somebody thinks will really work, and before they ever really know that it works, they change it again. You pretty much had the basics: mathematics, English, civics, history, the basic courses. Where now it's kind of a scatter gun effect. Once six weeks the students take one thing and then the next six weeks they take another subject. It's it to me, from my substituting days was very confusing, and I can imagine that the students are confused.	3:40
Chris Stewart	Before, earlier, when we were talking, you said that your mom and your dad used to take you on little mini vacations.	4:32
Bill Crumpton	Yes.	4:40
Chris Stewart	Would you travel by car?	4:41
Bill Crumpton	Yes. We went in the family car, I think. Let's see, first we had a 1950 Buick, which was huge. And mom and dad since there weren't any motels that we could sleep in if we made a long trip. I remember one time we went to Norfolk, which back in the '50s, before interstates and everything, took about eight hours to drive to Norfolk. And we were all fairly young, I mean my sisters and I were all fairly young. So, my mom took some Coca-Cola crates and stacked them on the floor in the back seat, and put some quilts and blankets over them and that's where we slept. It was like having a double bed, that car was so huge. And all three of us slept for the first part of the trip, and then the sun came up and of course we wanted to see everything. So then we were awake.	4:43
Chris Stewart	In an eight hour trip, where would you eat? What would you eat?	5:43
Bill Crumpton	We packed lunch. Like I said, there were very few places we could stop to eat along the road. And even places that would service you, we would have to go in the back, and get the food, and leave. If we could even get service at all. Most of the time we couldn't get service.	5:46
Chris Stewart	Do you remember where you stayed at Norfolk? Did you stay with relatives?	6:03
Bill Crumpton	We stayed with my grand uncle, who's my grandmother's brother. His name was Walter Perry, and he's dead now of course. But I really enjoyed that trip to Norfolk, because I vaguely remembered being on the coast from the Brooklyn days, but it was a different type of coastal area than New York. So I was really excited, "Oh boy. We're going to the coast. We're going to the coast." And I think we went to probably Buck Row Beach over in Hampton, or some beach area we went to for a little while. Not long. I get sick of the beach quick.	6:06
Chris Stewart	Can you remember taking any other trips? Not in a car, maybe in a bus or in a train or?	6:48
Bill Crumpton	Before we got the car we would take the train to New York, and of course until we got to Pennsylvania, it was segregated. There were certain cars that we had to sit in, or maybe there was a train car that had half White and half Black. But I do remember the facilities being segregated. The waiting room was segregated. And then when the train stopped, the White passengers went up toward the front of the train, and the Black passengers went toward the back of the train. But I do remember that. I don't remember riding any buses, although we did have a city bus.	6:56
Chris Stewart	When was this?	7:34
Bill Crumpton	This was in the 1950s. Early to probably middle '50s.	7:35
Chris Stewart	We were talking a little bit about school. Wicker was one through twelve, right?	7:46
Bill Crumpton	Yes.	7:51
Chris Stewart	What did you do for fun when you were in high school?	7:51
Bill Crumpton	Well, I was on the football team. I never got a chance to go in the game, but I was on the football team. Our coach believed in the one platoon system that they used back probably '30s and '40s. So we used to lose a lot of games because the other teams would change teams when the ball would change hands. And there were the same eleven guys out on the field all the time. And about second half, despite conditioning, they were pretty tired because they were going up against guys that had gotten rest, either way.	7:55
Chris Stewart	So you played football?	8:29
Bill Crumpton	Yes, I played football. I don't think we really had, we didn't really have too many clubs or anything, and I never was one that could sing, so I didn't join the Glee club.	8:31
Chris Stewart	What about outside of extracurricular activities from school? Were there, I mean, what would you do on a Friday night if you didn't have a football game?	8:42
Bill Crumpton	Usually worked. I started working when I was nine. I had a paper route at first, and then I later got a job as a grocery clerk. So usually on Friday evenings until the store closed. I think it was nine o'clock or eight o'clock I would work. And then of course if I did go out somewhere to visit a girl or something, I had to be back in at nine o'clock, or else get grounded forever.	8:54
Chris Stewart	So, there were strict rules in your house about that?	9:22
Bill Crumpton	Very strict rules.	9:22
Chris Stewart	Until how old?	9:24
Bill Crumpton	I got to stay out until midnight when I went to the prom. Other than that, it was in at nine o'clock. I didn't really get wild until I went to college. And then I kind of put a restriction on myself twelve o'clock, because when I was in college, I was used to coming and going as I pleased. Except for the weekends, I went home. And during the summers when I was there working, I would go out on Friday night and I might come in three or four o'clock Saturday morning.	9:24
Bill Crumpton	And one particular time I came in at six and my mom was sitting up waiting for me. She thought that I'd had a wreck or something. So then I started putting a curfew on myself. I would come in at twelve, so my mom wouldn't sit up worrying about me all night. Because, well, incidentally, she had to go to work that next morning. So I really felt like a heel because I'd been out. I wasn't having as much fun as she accused me of having. But I felt like a heel because she'd set up worrying about me and then had to work for eight hours the next day, or ten hours, or twelve hours, or whatever it was.	9:56
Chris Stewart	Would you consider yourself a religious person?	10:30
Bill Crumpton	Well, I don't particularly go to church like I should, but I am Presbyterian, and I really kind of believe that I can worship without going to church. I believe in prayer, and I do believe that there's a higher being. But as far as going to church every Sunday, I pretty much gotten away from that when I left my parents home.	10:37
Chris Stewart	Did your parents go to church?	11:03
Bill Crumpton	Yes. My parents are both, well, my parents were both very devout. And I say were because my father's deceased, my mother still is a very religious woman. And although she doesn't go to our home church all the time, she'll usually go visit other churches on Sunday.	11:05
Chris Stewart	That's nice. Good to meet other people, yeah. What church did you belong to when you were in? Or what church did you belong to when you were growing up?	11:26
Bill Crumpton	Well, I belonged to Blandonia Presbyterian Church and well, I still keep my membership there. I pay my per capita fees, which is a fee that active Presbyterians pay. I keep that paid every year. And when I can afford it, when I go and can afford it, I'll send some money. Or if they're selling tickets to raise money, I always buy them. I contribute to the church as much as I can.	11:42
Chris Stewart	You mentioned that the integration of those schools in Sanford was pretty tough situation.	12:16
Bill Crumpton	Yes, it was.	12:25
Chris Stewart	Were any of the churches in your town involved with that? Do you remember if your church was involved with it?	12:25
Bill Crumpton	Well, my church was involved with the sit-in demonstrations that we had in Sanford. Although those weren't particularly geared toward integrating schools, that was pretty much done through the courts. But our church provided a place for the NAACP youth meetings. So did the Methodist Church, the Holiness Church, and the Baptist Church. They were all right within one little area of each other. I remember one incident, we were having a meeting at my church.	12:31
Chris Stewart	When was this about? Excuse me for interrupting.	13:06
Bill Crumpton	This is 1963.	13:07
Chris Stewart	Okay.	13:09
Bill Crumpton	We were having a meeting at my church, and there was a mix up. There was another meeting scheduled for the church and we really didn't have facilities for everybody to be meeting at the same time. So the Minister of the Holiness Church offered the use of his church because there was nothing going on that evening. So he left two by two and marched down the street, and someone saw it and called the police. And they thought that we were going to demonstrate in the Jonesborough Heights area of Sanford, which was actually a separate little town at one time. So the police went down to Jonesborough to arrest us for demonstrating, and we just went one block to another church.	13:12
Chris Stewart	Wow. Wow. So you mentioned two churches, your church and a Methodist church that were active in civic affairs.	13:50
Bill Crumpton	Right. All of the Black churches in town were active in some fashion or another. They provided a place for meetings. The ministers kind of spoke out against segregation, and spoke for people to vote. And the ministers kind of organized things in a way.	14:01
Chris Stewart	When did your mom and dad first vote? Do you remember?	14:24
Bill Crumpton	As long as I can remember, Mom and Dad have been voting.	14:29
Chris Stewart	Really?	14:32
Bill Crumpton	As long as I've been cognizant of the fact that once every four years or once every year people go to vote. And my grandmother voted too. But I guess we were an exceptional family in that they cared enough to take part in the civic activities of town.	14:33
Chris Stewart	Or take the risk.	14:52
Bill Crumpton	Well, I don't think that, as far as I can remember, there was never any threats against anyone in Lee County for voting, but there weren't a whole lot of people registered to vote up until the '60s. It was kind of this apathy that they just didn't care, didn't make any difference who was in. It was going to be the same.	14:53
Chris Stewart	Oh. You mentioned your ex-wife, and you haven't mentioned women companions or whatever. And I was wondering if you could talk a little bit about women. Girlfriends in high school we can start with, and maybe in the context of courtship.	15:22
Bill Crumpton	Well, in high school I really didn't have any steady girlfriend per se. There were always girls that I liked. I did take girls to the prom who were more like friends rather than a romantic interest. I didn't really get involved seriously with girls until college days. And it might have been because I was a year younger than everybody else in my class, and they kind of thought I was a little kid. So, no one ever took me seriously. They always thought I was, not the class clown, but one of the class clowns. So I guess I always thought that my education was paramount, and I was kind of afraid to fall in love and get married like everybody else did. And then college, I guess it's probably the ratio on our campus, seven to one. That kind of made me a playboy. One time I had three girlfriends at one time.	15:44
Bill Crumpton	But I never really got serious about anyone until my junior year. And then it was the girl not next door, but the house next to that, was the first person I fell in love with. And I'd go down to her house and we'd sit there on the living room couch and kiss and hug, and I'd take her to the movies. And I guess general courtship things. Which by the way, we had to sit in the balcony, because the theaters were segregated up until '64 when they passed the Civil Rights Act. There was no voluntary desegregation in Sanford. But then when I went in the Air Force, I didn't really get attached to any one person until I met my ex-wife. And I got pretty serious about her, I guess. I guess I was pretty serious. I married her.	16:46
Bill Crumpton	So that lasted for twelve years. And I have two children, a boy and a girl. The boys the older of the two. And in a lot of ways he's a lot like me. He's pretty intellectual. He's into computers, and he wants to be a computer animator. And he says he's going to Japan next year when he gets out of high school. But my daughter's probably more like me, and she favors me a lot more than my son does. And she's pretty quiet, shy, and soft spoken, or at least she was the last time I saw her. But now I pretty regularly date the same person who's a school teacher from, well, we grew up in the same neighborhood. And she's got a master's degree in third grade education and she teaches in Montgomery County. So I only see her on weekends. Which is pretty good, that gives me my freedom. That gives her freedom.	17:38
Chris Stewart	Do your children live in Sanford?	18:44
Bill Crumpton	No, my children live in Maryland, Summer Springs?	18:46
Chris Stewart	In Maryland, oh. So, do you get to see them very often?	18:51
Bill Crumpton	Not very often. There's not any effort on that end for them to come see me. And in fact, they don't send me Father's Day cards, and Christmas cards, and birthday cards, and things of that nature. But I always, always remember sending them a Christmas present. Since they're teenagers now and I don't know what to buy, I just send them money. It's easier, and I write on the card.	18:51
Chris Stewart	That's got to be a hard relationship as well, that you continue to reach out.	19:22
Bill Crumpton	Yeah, they say, "Well dad, we're going to write. We're going to call." And they never do.	19:22
Chris Stewart	How old are they?	19:24
Bill Crumpton	16 and 15.	19:24
Chris Stewart	Partly an age period, I'm sure.	19:30
Bill Crumpton	Let's see, they've been gone probably about eight to ten years, since we broke up. So they were their younger years, they were pretty much under their mother's influence, and she didn't care too much to communicate with me. And I didn't care too much to communicate with her. It wasn't a friendly breakup, it was kind of hostile.	19:34
Chris Stewart	Yeah, that happened sometimes, I think. Can you think of anything that I haven't asked you that you would like to have on this record?	19:59
Bill Crumpton	Well, I guess about the last thing I could say is I'm proud to be on this team, and I plan to contribute a lot more than I probably have this first week. And still, I guess in the process of sorting out what we're supposed to really be doing. So I probably will have different thoughts about that by August.	20:17
Chris Stewart	When we do another interview, which is what we're going to do. Thank you.	20:40
Bill Crumpton	You're welcome.	20:45

Item Info

Title:

William Crumpton interview recording, 1993 May 26

Date:

May 26, 1993

Creator:

Crumpton, William Russell

Contributor:

Stewart, Chris M.

Description:

Name: William Russell Crumpton; Date of birth: 1948-01-03; Place of birth: Sanford, NC; Occupation(s): student; Residence: Durham, NC
Informant ID: 346; Interviewed by: Chris Stewart.

Occupation:

Student

Format:

Language:

English

Digital Collection:

Behind the Veil

Source Collection:

Behind the Veil: Documenting African American Life in the Jim Crow South interviews, photographs, and project records, circa 1864-2011, bulk 1990-2004

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The David M. Rubenstein Rare Book and Manuscript Library acquired the Records of the Behind the Veil Oral History Project from the Duke University Center for Documentary Studies in 1997, 1998, 2000, and 2002.

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CC BY-NC 4.0

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Copyright for content created by the Behind the Veil project is held by Duke University and made available to the public using a Creative Commons Attribution / Non-commercial (CC-BY-NC) license.

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William Crumpton interview recording, 1993 May 26

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1. William Crumpton administrative file, 1993

2. William Crumpton slides: Albert Perry, grand uncle of William Crumpton, full length studio portrait, circa early 1910s

3. William Crumpton slides: Crumpton family Christmas: John and Mary Crumpton, Nancy L. Crumpton, Leroy and Eileen Brunson, Christine Crumpton Davis (Mom and Dad, Grandmother, two Aunts and Uncle), 1957

John Hope Franklin Research Center

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