George Ferrell interview recording, 1994 July 01

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Stacey Scales	I guess there was a lot of work back then.	0:00
George Ferrell	—19—I was working with him, during 1920 or 1922, on up through—	0:08
Stacey Scales	Did he work—	0:20
George Ferrell	Hm?	0:20
Stacey Scales	—Did he work here?	0:20
George Ferrell	No, no, no. He was a highway construction contractor. He worked in Alabama, but it was in LaFayette, Alabama. That's where I lived. There that booger is.	0:22
Tywanna Whorley	Oh, wow.	0:33
Stacey Scales	Man.	0:33
George Ferrell	There he is. Now that's my grandparent on my father's side.	0:38
Stacey Scales	That's a nice picture.	0:44
George Ferrell	That's Wash Ferrell. Now he used to tell me a lot of this old farm [indistinct 00:00:48].	0:44
Stacey Scales	Did he talk about slavery times ever?	0:48
George Ferrell	Of course he did. He was sold in slavery when he was a boy. He belonged to the Gunn's at that time. The family of Gunn's.	0:50
Stacey Scales	Yes.	1:03
George Ferrell	And then he was sold to the Ferrell family, that's how I got my name.	1:03
Stacey Scales	To the Ferrell family?	1:04
George Ferrell	To the Ferrell. To the White Ferrell's.	1:05
Stacey Scales	To the Ferrell's. How do you spell that?	1:08
George Ferrell	Ferrell. F-E-R-R-E-L-L.	1:08
Stacey Scales	You might be my cousin. I have Ferrell's in my family.	1:12
George Ferrell	Which one? F-E-R-R-E-L-L?	1:14
Stacey Scales	Yeah.	1:15
George Ferrell	Well why I'm so ugly, boy, and you look so handsome then? (all laughs) I know that we ain't cousins.	1:17
George Ferrell	Huh? Baby, huh?	1:17
Daisy Ferrell	Did y'all want to use it?	1:17
George Ferrell	No, baby. Don't bother 'em too much now.	1:26
Daisy Ferrell	Okay. I thought if they wanted to use it.	1:27
Tywanna Whorley	Which one is your grandfather?	1:29
George Ferrell	This is him right here. This is my family.	1:31
Tywanna Whorley	Okay.	1:32
George Ferrell	This is my grandfather, and that's his third family. He was married. He had two more families before that. Uh-huh.	1:32
Stacey Scales	So you—	1:41
George Ferrell	This is the last and third family. Uh-huh.	1:41
Stacey Scales	And where was he from?	1:45
George Ferrell	He was from Rome, Georgia.	1:46
Stacey Scales	That's where he was sold?	1:48
George Ferrell	He was sold—Yes. I'm not too sure where. See, at that time, you had a lot of farming and everybody wasn't living in town like they are now. His name is Wash Ferrell.	1:50
Stacey Scales	When you said he had two families, you mean that—	2:06
George Ferrell	I mean he had three groups of wives. He had 10 children in two families, and 11 in one.	2:15
Stacey Scales	So as he got sold, he just acquired a new family, or?	2:16
George Ferrell	No. All of his families were after he got grown, after slavery. He was a slaver and a boy. He came out of slavery when he was a boy.	2:25
Stacey Scales	Okay. So when did your family come to this area? Tuskegee.	2:32
George Ferrell	I'm the only one came to this area. My family's from Georgia, that's where you'll find the Ferrell's at. White Ferrell's are out of LaGrange, Georgia.	2:38
Tywanna Whorley	What did your grandfather tell you about slavery, in terms of what he did, or being sold?	2:51
George Ferrell	Well, he was called a houseboy. That's what he was. He was very small. He wasn't grown like he is now. And he piddled around the house as a boy, when he was a little thing. He had no designated chores. But he was a Gunn before then, and he was sold to the White Ferrell's in LaGrange, Georgia. They're still in LaGrange, Georgia.	2:57
Tywanna Whorley	Still there now?	3:20
George Ferrell	Mm-hmm. The White Ferrell's are.	3:20
Tywanna Whorley	Yeah?	3:21
George Ferrell	Mm-hmm. Got the streets named after them.	3:23
Stacey Scales	Where was his wife from?	3:25
George Ferrell	I think she was from—This is his wife here. I think she was from Rome, Georgia too. I don't know anything about her.	3:28
Daisy Ferrell	Who was that, honey?	3:41
George Ferrell	Uncle Wash. My granddaddy Wash's wife.	3:42
Stacey Scales	Did he ever—What type of work did they do, farming?	3:47
George Ferrell	That's what—They were farmers, yeah. This time.	3:48
Stacey Scales	Did they ever talk about being treated unfairly?	3:56
George Ferrell	Well, no, because that depends, I think, mostly on the master. How fairly they were treated and—And a lot of it would be a lot of hearsay. I don't know. He never said anything about him being treated unfairly, because I guess at that time, he was of such a young age that he couldn't designate whether he was treated fairly or not, because he was a youngster. And another thing about slavery, it depends on the master, his living conditions, his attitude. And it was a lot of personal—I think it added to the [indistinct 00:04:44]. But he talked very highly of his master. He was sold to them when he was about eight or 10 years old. Between eight and 10 years old.	4:01
Tywanna Whorley	Did he remember how long he was a slave before he was sold?	5:07
George Ferrell	Before he was sold—I mean, he—Before slavery, are we saying that? No, I never did hear him say definitely how long slavery. Like we are now, sometimes we don't know what's going to be important tomorrow, or something like that. And then they had—Slaves kept no records at that time, for themselves. But he was still a teenager when he was—I don't know how long that was.	5:08
Daisy Ferrell	Where are you from?	5:32
Stacey Scales	I'm originally from Gary, Indiana.	5:49
Daisy Ferrell	Gary, Indiana.	5:49
George Ferrell	Gary, man.	5:49
Daisy Ferrell	You too?	5:49
Paul Ortiz	No, I'm from Burlington, Washington.	5:49
Tywanna Whorley	And I'm from Alexandria, Virginia.	6:00
George Ferrell	Oh.	6:00
Daisy Ferrell	You said, Virginia?	6:00
Tywanna Whorley	Yes, ma'am.	6:00
George Ferrell	Virginia. I've been there.	6:00
Daisy Ferrell	[indistinct 00:06:01].	6:00
George Ferrell	You spent quite a bit of time in Gary, didn't you? She has a sister in Gary, and I have some Ferrell's in Gary. First cousins. How far you live from Grant Street?	6:00
Stacey Scales	I don't even know.	6:18
George Ferrell	Fifth Avenue?	6:18
Stacey Scales	I live on 19th Avenue.	6:21
George Ferrell	19th, 19th Avenue.	6:21
Stacey Scales	Five blocks from Grant Street.	6:21
George Ferrell	Uh-huh.	6:33
Stacey Scales	I live on 19th and [indistinct 00:06:34].	6:33
George Ferrell	She lived on—She had a sister on Hagan Street. Hagan Street, that's—You said five blocks from Grant. Well, let's get back to what you—	6:35
Stacey Scales	What did your parents do? What were—	6:46
George Ferrell	My parents—My daddy was a highway construction contractor. He built bridges, laid pipe, built culverts and built highway markers. That's what he did for a living.	6:47
Daisy Ferrell	He was from [indistinct 00:07:04], if you know where he lived.	7:02
George Ferrell	No, baby. He wanted to know what he did for a living.	7:04
Stacey Scales	Who did he work for when he was a contractor?	7:06
George Ferrell	He had to contract his own stuff. Of course at that time, he couldn't do the contracting. He had another fellow, a White man, to do his bidding for him because he couldn't bid, because he was a Black man.	7:11
Stacey Scales	Right.	7:26
George Ferrell	And Black men couldn't do that. That was in Alabama here.	7:26
Stacey Scales	Did he ever—	7:27
George Ferrell	Cliff McCoy used to do his bidding for him. He got a certain percent of the bids, bidding for him. Uh-huh. Because I've been out on the road working with my daddy many day, and the White man come up and ask, "Where is the boys". My daddy right there listening, and I couldn't tell him he was the boys. Uh-huh.	7:30
Stacey Scales	Did he have a crew?	7:47
George Ferrell	Yes, he had a crew. He had a camp. I had a—We'd build roads in Abanda, Alabama, Troy, Alabama. When I first came in here, they were working in Huntsville, Alabama. Had a contract working between Cullman and Huntsville, Alabama, and building the roads from Cullman to Huntsville.	7:53
Stacey Scales	And that was in the '20s?	8:10
George Ferrell	No. That was in 19—Yes, it was in '20s. I came into school in 1927, and that was in the '20s. That's right, '24, '25. '22 is when I first started working for him, 1922.	8:17
Stacey Scales	What did your mother do?	8:42
George Ferrell	My mother is a housewife. Of course they were separated. They separated when I was about six years old.	8:43
Daisy Ferrell	I met him for the first time [indistinct 00:08:52]—	8:52
George Ferrell	Baby?	8:52
Daisy Ferrell	—[indistinct 00:08:52]. Huh?	8:52
George Ferrell	Baby? Let them talk. (Daisy laughs) We'll talk about that after we finish.	8:52
Daisy Ferrell	Oh, okay.	8:52
George Ferrell	Yeah.	8:52
Daisy Ferrell	I thought you had [indistinct 00:09:00]—	8:53
George Ferrell	Mother was just a housewife.	9:00
Tywanna Whorley	Did you have any sisters and brothers?	9:02
George Ferrell	Me?	9:02
Tywanna Whorley	Mm-hmm.	9:02
George Ferrell	I have two sisters and two brothers. There's five of us.	9:08
Tywanna Whorley	Where are you in the five?	9:11
George Ferrell	I was next to the baby. That's been a good while ago. I was born in 1909.	9:16
Stacey Scales	Do you remember any hard times, coming up?	9:28
George Ferrell	Yes. I remember one hard time I had, very hard time. I was hauling cement for my father, and at that time, sacks of cement weighed 98 pounds. Truck driver got sick, we had two full trucks. My daddy had. Truck driver got sick and my daddy put me to driving trucks. I was driving the truck. I was about 15 years old then, and—You ever been inside of a freight car?	9:31
Stacey Scales	Yeah.	9:58
George Ferrell	A real long thing, boy. And I took the cement from the back of the freight car and put on the truck up there, out of the door. So that night, I told my father—We were living in a tent then. I lived in a tent. I told my father, I said, "I can't. Daddy, I can't haul that cement. It's too heavy." And my father says, "Well son, you've got to do something. You're grown now, you've got to go to work." And so I hauled the cement. The next day, I came back, I couldn't hardly walk. I told my daddy, "I couldn't. I wasn't going to be able to do that much." And he said, "Well son, I done told you, you're grown. You've got to go to work."	9:59
George Ferrell	So that's why I'm here. I thought I could—Told him, I said, "Well you know, dad, I can't. I don't think I'm going to be able to haul that cement the rest of my life though." I was about dead. And so, the next day, I started thinking about what I was going to have to do. So I told my—He asked me that morning, he said, "What you going to do?" I said, "Well, I'm going to Tuskegee to school." And he said, "What you going to take?" I said, "I'm going to take plumbing." And he says, "Well, I'm a plumber." I said, "Well no, I don't want any plumbing. No."	10:34
Stacey Scales	Right.	11:16
George Ferrell	And so, he said, "Well what you going to take?" I said, "Well I'll take automobiles and mechanic." But the thing about it, I hadn't finished second grade then. See when I come along, you didn't have to go to school. And so, when I—He said, "I'll tell you what I'll do, I'll give you $2 and a half a day, until you get ready to go to school." So when I got 19, I had to save up enough money to come to school. When I got out here, I couldn't enter. I was—You had to be sixth grade.	11:16
Daisy Ferrell	I met him the first day I came to Tuskegee [indistinct 00:12:02]—	11:59
George Ferrell	So—Baby? I couldn't enter.	12:02
Daisy Ferrell	—[indistinct 00:12:06].	12:05
George Ferrell	So what happened, the school had two cars, a 1926 car and a 1927 car. And when I was in the Registrar's Office, the cars were in—They had a horse barn then, that's where the cars were. They called over there and told the registrar to send a student over there to go to Chehaw, to meet the principal. That's Dr. Moton. I was driving an old '25 Ford, so the registrar come to the window and said, "Is that your car?" I said, "Yeah." He says, "Wait a minute." Then he went back to talk to Mr. Woods, who was over at the hospital.	12:05
George Ferrell	So he comes back and says, "Mr. Woods is going to send a buggy over here for you, and wants you to go over there and talk to Mr. Woods." I went out to Mr. Woods, he told me he wanted me to take the school's car and go to Chehaw and get the principal, Dr. Moton. So that's what I did, I went to Chehaw and got the principal, another fellow showing me the way. And when I got back, Mr. Woods said—Asked me what dorm was I staying in. I told him I wasn't a student, I was just trying to get in school. So he said, "Well, you stay here tonight." He fixed me a bed in the horse barn. I stayed there.	12:48
George Ferrell	The next day, I went back up and they gave me an examination. It was a test to see if I could—would ever make sixth grade. I'll never forget that. I went on down—Now this was a difficult time too. I went over to the principal's school, took me over there in his office, and gave me a test. One half plus one half. I looked at. I had never seen a one on top of a two, so I told him, I said, "Man, I don't know. I ain't never seen anything like that before." He said, "What's wrong?" I said, "I've never seen a one on top of a two." He laughed.	13:26
George Ferrell	And so, that was two times. That cement and the time I got in school. So that one on top of the two, that was a problem, man. (laughs)	14:12
Stacey Scales	How was it different from—	14:20
George Ferrell	One half plus one half.	14:22
Stacey Scales	No, where you were coming from, to Tuskegee, how was two places different? Where were you working?	14:24
George Ferrell	Where I was working, I lived in a tent then. We worked out on the road and lived in tents, in big—You don't never see here, a road camp. We lived in camps. My father had 200 and some men working. You got your meals there and everything, done in all tents. It was about 100 mules and things. See, everything was done by mules then. You didn't have no Caterpillars and things like you're talking about. All the roads were made with mules.	14:33
Paul Ortiz	So it sounds like you had quite a relationship with your father.	15:00
George Ferrell	Oh, yes. I think so. I think that's because I stayed with him after my mother passed. The other children went with my mother, and I stayed with him. So figuring out what that one on top of the two was, was the other one. That cement was the other. I think that's about the worst problem I had. See, I didn't have too much trouble getting in school. That was my biggest problem that I had.	15:06
Stacey Scales	You drove up in your car?	15:33
George Ferrell	Yeah, I drove in the car. I came in my car. I had a '25 Ford.	15:36
Stacey Scales	So how was it traveling through the South, during that time?	15:41
George Ferrell	Awful slowly. Awful slowly.	15:44
Stacey Scales	And getting gas at the—	15:47
George Ferrell	Well you see, you didn't have filling stations like you have now. You could get gas—Like see, from here to Montgomery—I had gone to Montgomery in 1923. I left LaGrange, Georgia, that's about 60 miles from here, North. So it took us—Took me two days to go to Montgomery. We came here that night and spent the night, and then went to Montgomery the next day. And with that Ford, you could average about 10 miles an hour. Ten or 15 miles an hour, because you had to stop a lot of places and hold your mules while the wagons passed. See, you had very few cars.	15:49
Stacey Scales	So was it easy for Black folks to get gas at these—	16:33
George Ferrell	I never had any trouble getting gas. You didn't get gas so often, because you drove very slowly, and you didn't burn much gas. And your car had four cylinders. But no, we didn't have no trouble. Because see, gas wasn't but 10 cents a gallon.	16:37
Stacey Scales	I mean trouble with white folks. Some places didn't serve—	17:00
George Ferrell	Oh, no. No, no.	17:03
Stacey Scales	—Black people. Did that happen to you?	17:06
George Ferrell	I don't know. I can't say that, because my wife and I have traveled just about all over the United States, I've never had—Yes, I did. I had one trouble, in Birmingham. I didn't have any trouble then. I wanted to drink some water, and then guy told me I couldn't drink water. That's the only problem I had.	17:07
Stacey Scales	How did you feel about that?	17:22
George Ferrell	Well, I stopped his gas. I mean, I was running gas in the car. The fellow was. But for some reason—Well, no, not—Well, yeah, the main reason is that you don't expect anything and any better. You know that that's the custom. And so, if you know that there's no other way, so you more or less adjust to the custom. And if you know your mouth is going to get you in trouble, why don't you keep it closed? But that was difficult too, but I never did have no hard time. I knew my place.	17:28
Paul Ortiz	Did—	18:22
George Ferrell	That's what they say.	18:22
Paul Ortiz	—Did your father ever talk about that? Did you ever see him [indistinct 00:18:28]?	18:23
George Ferrell	Oh, yes. He had quite a bit of difficulty, because his was financial. Because he couldn't bid, because he was a Negro at that time. No, he couldn't bid, so he lost a lot of money behind that. See, he had to play Cliff McCoy about 5% of the money he made, to do the bidding for him because he couldn't bid. Because a Black man couldn't bid.	18:29
Tywanna Whorley	How was the relationship between Cliff McCoy and your father?	18:55
George Ferrell	Oh, it was good. I think they had a good relationship. I know they did, because I've never known them to have any financial disputes or any trouble.	18:58
Stacey Scales	Now how many people, I should say Black people that were like your father, that necessarily had their own business, as far as contracting or some other type, was it a lot of people like that?	19:13
George Ferrell	In my boyhood, it was a speck, within a small area. There could have been more, but in that area, in Alabama and Georgia, there wasn't another one. Because my father invited another Black man, named Blackman, two of them. They did the grading. My father just built the bridges and did the drainage, and built the right of way markers. So there was one other. Blackman was doing the grading. The Black brothers, that was their name. They did the grading. And I don't know of any other one like that, that was doing that type of work.	19:30
Tywanna Whorley	Do you know how much your father was paying the men that worked for him?	20:10
George Ferrell	They paid them from—They got the board and everything, because we had a cook and everything on the camp. And their living was all right. They furnished them and a place to sleep, and all that stuff. He paid them anywhere from a dollar to $2 and a half day, because he had to have carpenters to build these farms. To build bridges and things like that. And they made—Those carpenters made about $2 and a half a day, which was a good salary then.	20:18
Tywanna Whorley	For real?	20:50
George Ferrell	Yeah. Because I left when I was here in school, 1937. I went to—The school sent me up to—Got a job up at West Point, working at the wholesale house as a truck driver, and I didn't make but $2 a day, 12 hours. And I had worked for Tuskegee Institute. I came back here in '29. I had been out working, to make me some money, and I came back here in 1929 and I worked for Tuskegee Institute for a dollar a day. That's, furnished everything, for a dollar a day.	20:50
George Ferrell	So you see, my father was doing pretty good though. You had $2. Because that's what I was making when I came here, working for my father. He paid me $2 and a half a day.	21:18
Tywanna Whorley	Oh, so the guys that worked for your father, did they have families of their own?	21:34
George Ferrell	Yeah, they had families. Yeah. Some of them did and some didn't. Some of them were just ordinary—Or just drifters and things like that. And people in the community. Just some old people in the community. Most of the people had family, were people in the community. That he got out there in the community.	21:37
George Ferrell	That work consisted of digging ditches and clearing right of way. My job was loading and setting dynamite, when I got a pretty good salary. Because you see, you didn't have bulldozers to move rocks and stuff, so we'd set dynamite on it and blow them up. So the only skill about that, you know how much powder it takes to blow up a stump, how much it takes to move a rock as big as this house, things like that. That's what I did and do. Loaded truck two days, hauled cement. (laughs)	21:52
Paul Ortiz	I wanted to ask, what your experience was like at school.	22:37
George Ferrell	At the school here? In what way? I took mechanics and I went to night school too. When I came, I had to go to night school in the day, and drove the car. Oh, I—That was my job after I went to get the principal. Well, they assigned me to drive the car every day, carrying the faculty about, wherever they wanted to go, and then go to school at night. And so here, I drove the trash trucks some nights. The boys took up trash at night. It was—Most of the students here then, worked that way. You had very students here that's paying their way in school. We more worked.	22:44
George Ferrell	And they were men from 30, 40 years old. Some had children, but most of them took trade. Now in trade, you'd work one day and go to school, and worked on your trade more. You went to school one day.	23:27
Stacey Scales	Were there a lot of Black businesses in this area?	23:47
George Ferrell	Quite a few. You had quite a few. This was a pretty productive Black business area at that time. You had fellows here—Have you ever—How long you've been here on this campus? Are you staying on the campus?	23:51
Stacey Scales	Yes.	24:01
George Ferrell	Where are you staying?	24:02
Stacey Scales	We're staying for just three weeks.	24:04
George Ferrell	I said, where are you staying on the campus?	24:05
Stacey Scales	Oh. Banneker Hall, in the boys' dormitory.	24:07
George Ferrell	That's all been built since I was here. I stayed in the Emery Building, but what I'm saying—What was your question?	24:09
Stacey Scales	Black businesses do you remember any of them?	24:16
George Ferrell	Yeah. Yeah, I'm trying to say, yeah. Mr. Chandlers, he had that hotel. The bookstore over there, that building was given by a Black man. He was a Black businessman. Mr. Galman, he had a big store here. He had a cloth store. And Wilbur, downtown, he had a business downtown. We had quite a few Black businesses downtown. They had one man that owned a gin. A Black fellow owned a gin, and Mr. Callaway, he owned a lot of land. But there was a—These the most prosperous Black people at that time. They were good livers at that particular time. Very prosperous at that time.	24:18
Tywanna Whorley	Can you describe the campus back then? I mean, what did the campus look like?	24:58
George Ferrell	Oh, yes. Let's see. You're not staying over in these big new buildings. I don't know where you're staying.	25:07
Stacey Scales	No, not them.	25:15
George Ferrell	Not the Emery Building. Callaway, you're staying?	25:17
Stacey Scales	We're staying over there in the boys' dorm. It used to be Dorm C.	25:18
George Ferrell	I don't know where that's at. All that names, when I was young.	25:26
Stacey Scales	That was later.	25:26
George Ferrell	That was later?	25:26
Stacey Scales	[indistinct 00:25:29].	25:26
George Ferrell	They had a—You're not familiar with any buildings on the campus then?	25:29
Stacey Scales	Mm-hmm. Somewhat.	25:36
George Ferrell	What do you know of them? Band Cottage? You know where Band Cottage is?	25:36
Paul Ortiz	Band Cottage.	25:36
George Ferrell	That's the blacksmith shop. That's the old blacksmith shop. And right off—Just to the other side of the blacksmith shop, there was a Cassidy Hall. That was all the industrial building, years ago. That's where they had the trade and all that. Got back, a little bit before that, that was OD Hall. That's torn down now. That was also one of the industrial buildings.	25:38
George Ferrell	But the campus used to just—You know where Band Cottage is, it used to be a road. That's how you'd come on the campus. [indistinct 00:26:10], get off the highway and come in on Band Cottage, then go down this other street there. But you could go anywhere you wanted to on the campus at that time. Go down towards the monument. And then, do you know where the bookstore is at now?	26:03
Stacey Scales	Yes.	26:23
George Ferrell	The road came in there, at the bookstore. The other road used to come in right there at the bookstore. Yeah. And then all down there where that other gate at, that was closed down there. That wasn't opened down there. And let's see, what else? You know the laundry was down—Well you know it's—Let's see, Dr. Carver's office, you know—You never did know—You don't know where the ag building is now, huh?	26:24
Daisy Ferrell	Who you all is?	26:53
George Ferrell	Doctor—They're visiting me, baby.	27:01
Daisy Ferrell	Okay.	27:02
George Ferrell	They're students visiting Tuskegee, getting some information.	27:04
Daisy Ferrell	Yeah.	27:06
George Ferrell	Mm-hmm. Yeah. Been a long time since you came to get some information, huh? (George and Daisy laugh) Yeah. Yeah, I done—	27:11
Daisy Ferrell	[indistinct 00:27:19] was at the church, prepared [indistinct 00:27:21]—	27:16
George Ferrell	—That's my school. I transferred '34, a little before you were born.	27:20
Stacey Scales	Do you have a picture of your class?	27:26
George Ferrell	No. I have a picture of the choir. I don't know about my class. I had a picture of it. I don't know where it is, but I got a picture of the Tuskegee Choir, and I got a—So I don't have a picture of my class, no.	27:29
Stacey Scales	Do you keep up with other people that graduated in '34 with you?	27:44
George Ferrell	Yeah. At the last class reunion, I think—I know where one person is now. One or two people here now, in my class. Three, that was in my class. At the last class reunion, we had 12. But that's been a while ago, since 1934.	27:47
Stacey Scales	When you first started, how was it trying to make friends? Was it—	28:12
George Ferrell	It was good. Everybody was poor and hungry, and—You mean the students?	28:12
Paul Ortiz	Yes.	28:17
George Ferrell	Oh. Everybody was poor, hungry and old.	28:18
Daisy Ferrell	I remember him out there [indistinct 00:28:23]—	28:21
George Ferrell	See, I remember we were here and a little student came here, college. A little fellow who was 22 years old, and he was in college up in South Carolina. We thought that was something.	28:23
Paul Ortiz	Something.	28:34
George Ferrell	Oh, my. (laughs) And I saw the other day where some little fellow graduated, I think he was about nine years old.	28:35
Stacey Scales	Yeah.	28:44
George Ferrell	Masters or something like that.	28:45
Paul Ortiz	I saw that too.	28:46
George Ferrell	So we were all poor, hungry, and wanted to learn. And everybody was friendly. No one—I think one boy here had a—Well, it was two. I know about three boys here, the father was rich and ran a big farm out of Arkansas. And another boy from Nassau, Bahamas. And let's see, where was the other boy from? Where was he from? I think he was from Oklahoma, because he—Yeah, because he was—oil. Father had oil. That's right. Yeah. That was just about it.	28:50
Tywanna Whorley	Did you ever get a chance to meet Dr. Carver?	29:31
George Ferrell	He was my best friend. Yes, Lord. We used to go to his room and eat peanuts, man, used to ride him in the car. Shoot, yeah. Let's see, I think I have a picture of Dr. Carver. Oh, that was my good friend, Dr. Carver. Did I meet him? Man, yes. Baby, I saw you with Dr. Carver's picture in there the other day.	29:39
Daisy Ferrell	Who is that?	29:59
George Ferrell	Dr. Carver. Yeah.	30:03
Daisy Ferrell	Well it should be in there then.	30:04
George Ferrell	Yeah.	30:05
Daisy Ferrell	Because everything in there.	30:05
George Ferrell	Now that was a fine man. Friendly as a game rooster. He was a nice fellow. You ever wanted to meet him?	30:08
Tywanna Whorley	Mm-hmm.	30:19
George Ferrell	He's a nice person indeed. Uh-huh. His office was—Let's see, if you come down the street where the clock is, you got all the street blocked off. Past the monument to your left, you know on down is the office building. But the ag building, it's the last building on your right, down there. That two story building, that's where his office was. And he lived in Rockefeller Hall.	30:19
Daisy Ferrell	Who was that, honey?	30:47
George Ferrell	Dr. Carver. You knew him. You knew him quite well.	30:47
Stacey Scales	Milbank?	30:50
George Ferrell	Huh?	30:50
Stacey Scales	Milbank?	30:50
George Ferrell	Yeah. Yeah.	30:54
Daisy Ferrell	Yeah, Dr. Carver, [indistinct 00:30:55]. Come on now.	30:54
George Ferrell	That's—Uh-huh, Dr. Carver. Yes, and he lived in Rockefeller. There he is right there.	30:55
Tywanna Whorley	Oh, wow.	31:11
Stacey Scales	You took that picture?	31:11
George Ferrell	No. He gave it to me.	31:11
Stacey Scales	Okay.	31:12
George Ferrell	I don't know who took it of him. He had it official. Yeah, he gave that to me.	31:12
Tywanna Whorley	Did you ever take a class from him? How did you get to meet him?	31:13
George Ferrell	Well by me driving the faculty in the school's car, that's how I met him. And I used to drive him up to Auburn and things like that. He made quite a few speeches, you know? These schools around, like Snow Hill, down to—They had a Snow Hill Institute then. Then they would have—I used to drive him down to Alabama State, that's what it was then. See at that time, Tuskegee was Tuskegee Normal Industrial Institute	31:29
Tywanna Whorley	Okay.	31:57
George Ferrell	It got to be a college in 1927, first class.	31:59
Tywanna Whorley	Did he always have that high-pitched voice?	32:08
George Ferrell	Who?	32:08
Tywanna Whorley	Dr. Carver.	32:08
George Ferrell	Yes, he had an high-pitched voice. I guess I can tell you why now, since he's passed. He was—	32:10
Daisy Ferrell	Yes.	32:18
George Ferrell	—You know in slavery, they castrated most of the house people when he was young, and that's why he still—	32:19
Stacey Scales	[indistinct 00:32:29]?	32:27
George Ferrell	Mm-hmm.	32:29
Stacey Scales	I heard—	32:29
George Ferrell	Now you know something very few people know.	32:32
Tywanna Whorley	Yeah. Well I mean, I went to the museum today and I heard his voice, and I [indistinct 00:32:39]—	32:34
George Ferrell	Yes, his voice was very, very high. But it was pleasant.	32:39
Tywanna Whorley	Mm-hmm.	32:41
George Ferrell	Mm-hmm.	32:41
Stacey Scales	And that's when he was in Iowa or?	32:44
George Ferrell	Yeah, he was a boy.	32:46
Stacey Scales	All right.	32:46
George Ferrell	Mm-hmm.	32:46
Stacey Scales	I had heard that.	32:46
George Ferrell	Yeah. I have the history of his life here someplace, when he was a boy. You know he was born in slavery?	32:50
Stacey Scales	Right.	32:58
George Ferrell	And he was a houseboy.	32:58
Stacey Scales	Did he talk to you about any of those times or anything?	33:00
George Ferrell	Oh, yes. But you know, when people like this, you don't talk too much about it because you don't have the care very much to talk much about it. You know? So—But I knew quite a bit about it, so that's how.	33:03
Tywanna Whorley	Did you ever get a chance to take classes with him?	33:21
George Ferrell	Sunday School class. He taught me Sunday School, that's why I'm so religious.	33:27
Tywanna Whorley	Really?	33:30
George Ferrell	Yeah. And you detected that spirit there?	33:31
Stacey Scales	Because he was faculty when you were here?	33:38
George Ferrell	Oh, yeah. He was faculty. He came here as faculty. They sent for him. Dr. Booker Washington sent for him. He came here. He was supposed to be a honorary student. They needed him because this was very, very poor soil here. And he was needed to do what could be gotten out of the soil.	33:40
Paul Ortiz	Did you have other faculty that [indistinct 00:34:03] like and that stood out [indistinct 00:34:06]?	34:00
George Ferrell	You mean as far as—Like you mean [indistinct 00:34:12] or just good natured. To what extent? Easy to get along with, very considerate about people, loved people. Now that was another thing that—See when I came here back there then, there was nobody here. There were no children here. I mean, no faculty member here that was born in Tuskegee. See, when I came here, most of the people here were people who came in the school and who had caught hell like I did, and so that quite naturally put them in the right attitude. They were very friendly, and you didn't have—	34:09
George Ferrell	And when I came here, if you wanted to go to school and if you would work, you went to school. But it was a working—Everything here was done by the students. Very few jobs. They had a few jobs, like working out on the landscaping. They'll have—I think there was about two fellows, worked on the farm, who lived here that wasn't students. But students did most of the work on the farm. Just like I was working. They took up the trash, they did everything. I drove the ice truck around. I've driven the ice truck, I've driven the trash truck, I've driven the grocery truck and all these things.	34:53
Stacey Scales	How about the School on Wheels?	35:33
George Ferrell	It was very active when I came here.	35:34
Stacey Scales	Did you ever drive that?	35:36
George Ferrell	No, they had a special driver for that. They didn't want a guy driving that, that didn't know one and two [indistinct 00:35:43]. Because he had to keep up with his mileage on that. Yeah, but they had a—I'm trying to think of the man's name that drove that. But it was still working at that time. They went about the community. And at that time too, the school took quite an interest in the community. The school was an active part of the community at that particular time, and it was a part of the community.	35:37
Stacey Scales	When people looked at Tuskegee, they looked at the school and the community?	36:15
George Ferrell	That's right. That's right. And Dr. Moton, at that time, he followed Dr. Washington, he was a man of that nature too. They took a very interest in that soil. Anything else y'all want to tell me?	36:18
Stacey Scales	You got anything else you want to tell us?	36:41
George Ferrell	Well, if y'all ask. I don't know what I'm being—telling you anything or not, but—	36:44
Stacey Scales	What type—You stayed on the campus when you attended?	36:49
George Ferrell	I stayed in—First Emery. First Emery. I came in January the 11th, 1927, and—	36:50
Daisy Ferrell	I met him the first day I came to the school.	37:03
George Ferrell	—and I'll never forget it. I went to First Emery and had Ms. Golden. She was the matron down there, and they assigned me to Room 37. I got down there and Ms. Golden went into Room 37 and she came in there after I did, and gave me a big tick, and told me to go out there to the pine needle park and fill it full of pine needles. That was my bed. Yeah, just a big old tick. Wasn't anything in there. And I—huh?	37:07
Stacey Scales	What is a tick?	37:34
George Ferrell	Bed ticking. You know it's a big thing. Open, you put the pine straw in there and you make yourself a—that was your padding.	37:35
Stacey Scales	Okay.	37:41
George Ferrell	That was your mattress.	37:42
Stacey Scales	Mm-hmm.	37:45
George Ferrell	You could put any amount of straw in there you wanted. You like a little straw, you make your bed any way you wanted. These beds, that was the kind of ticking boys had at that time. Then about 19—round about 19—I remember this, because I hauled. About 1928 or '29, the girls' got solid mattress beds.	37:46
Stacey Scales	Oh, yeah?	38:14
George Ferrell	Mm-hmm. They were sleeping in pine straw too. Served them right. No, but they got mattress and we didn't get any until around the '30s. '30 is when we got a regular mattress, like a machine-made mattress and bed.	38:15
Tywanna Whorley	How much did it cost to go to Tuskegee back then?	38:34
George Ferrell	It cost $18.25 a month, and that's your board. It was three quarters, $43.48, I think it was, a quarter. That's what it cost you, and very few people had that.	38:38
Stacey Scales	What did you do when you finished at Tuskegee?	38:54
George Ferrell	I got a job in x-ray over at the VA Hospital. I worked there until I retired in 19—I retired in—	39:01
Daisy Ferrell	[indistinct 00:39:13].	39:12
George Ferrell	—in January the 20th, 1968.	39:12
Daisy Ferrell	[indistinct 00:39:20].	39:15
George Ferrell	That's when I retired.	39:21
Stacey Scales	What changes did you see the institute go through while you stay here?	39:22
George Ferrell	While I was there, or you mean while I was here?	39:29
Stacey Scales	From the time you came here until the time you retired, I guess.	39:31
George Ferrell	Oh, I had limited because some of that time I spent in the Army. I spent three years in the Army. But it's just like other things, as society changes and progresses, quite naturally, school is. Because it was strictly a trade school when I came here. You came here to take a trade, and you could take just about any trade. Auto trimming, you know cars at that time, didn't have glass in it. They had curtains. Then they'd show you how to make these curtains, auto repair. Auto shop, where you repair them. You name it, it was here. Cabinet making, carpentry, tinsmith, wheelwrighting. They could even fix wagons. [indistinct 00:40:20] fixing wagons, when I came here.	39:34
George Ferrell	So that's what—So you see, that's one change that's been made. They didn't have a—School had the first—had a big farm. They bought the first tractor, after I got here. So I think the changes up until now, of course you know now, they are more on the technological side now, and they are—They are handoff. You have to pay now, I think. Of course you had to pay then, because I was—There were times, after I got to doing my college work, I had to go off in the summer and get work. Like I worked up at West Point and get work. And I would come back and go to school.	40:25
Stacey Scales	Were there places that you weren't allowed to go in this community, that you can remember?	41:19
George Ferrell	Oh, down in No Man's Land. You couldn't go down there.	41:24
Stacey Scales	Where is that?	41:26
George Ferrell	You know, I wasn't going to go that route.	41:33
Stacey Scales	Exactly. You don't know about that.	41:33
George Ferrell	You couldn't do down to No Man's Land, but you could go out there—I've done a little courting out there on the lawn, on Sunday afternoon, about 4:00. And you could go to the library and talk to her, very lightly, so they wouldn't hear you. You could tell her a whole lot there. She'd be there at the table, studying— fumbling with her book.	41:33
Stacey Scales	Fumbling, not studying?	41:52
George Ferrell	And she'd be making love, and you'd be courting her, in the library. Yeah.	41:54
Daisy Ferrell	Yeah, I [indistinct 00:42:01].	41:58
George Ferrell	Yeah, so that's—Yeah, but you couldn't go—In other words, that road that comes down through the campus, was the dividing line.	42:03
Daisy Ferrell	[indistinct 00:42:12]—	42:11
Stacey Scales	Oh, yeah?	42:11
George Ferrell	Yeah.	42:11
Stacey Scales	What about, were there any Jim Crow places in the area that you couldn't go? Like the, no Black folks, that you couldn't go?	42:12
George Ferrell	No, because you didn't have the need to go, because you could find most anything you'd want without going to town. The town wasn't like it is now. And back then—These years I'm talking about back there then, you didn't need too much. You just—There wasn't much on the market, because you didn't need too much. Because they had ROTC on the—RC—	42:20
Stacey Scales	ROTC.	43:02
George Ferrell	—when I came here. And you had to drill every day. You had to get up and start a drilling around—You'd drill, eat breakfast around 6:00. Another place, you couldn't go in the dining hall to eat at any time. They had whistle blowing too. Big whistle down at the power plant. They'd blow this big whistle, and you'd know what was happening. When you'd get up, they'd blow it in the morning, blow at 6:00. Then they had breakfast at—Boy, I'm getting old. Talking about a long time ago though.	43:03
George Ferrell	But anyway, they had breakfast at a certain hour, and if you weren't in there by the time that little bell started ringing inside, they closed the door. And so you'd just—Wasn't anything you could—You couldn't get anything to eat. Everything was strictly time, discipline. Everything, at that particular time. And if you were late, you had to go to chapel, if you couldn't pay somebody to mark your name for somebody. Because the man sit up here that a name list for each bench, and the man at the head of the bench, he signed it. Now he could easily put you there or not, but usually times were hard. If you had 25 cents, you were present.	43:43
Stacey Scales	Yeah?	44:28
George Ferrell	You didn't pay for nothing.	44:35
Stacey Scales	Did you ever have to give up that 25 cents?	44:37
George Ferrell	I don't know. It's quite a few I done used. Quite a few quarters I done used. Yes, sir. Old Marshall Candler spent quite a few of my quarters.	44:55
Daisy Ferrell	I met him out there the first day I came down here. He took me on to the campus.	44:58
George Ferrell	Because we used to—back there then, we were—All around, out there by Bull's Place, that was woods all around there. And so, we would have us a cookout sometimes on Sunday, down in the woods. We'd get us an old bucket to catch these hogs. We'd have quite a picnic. But we got to where we'd get hungry enough.	44:59
Stacey Scales	That's right. Did your folks ever come visit you up here?	45:35
George Ferrell	Yeah, my brother did. I had a brother. My sisters were—They didn't really come to see me. They were married. And one sister is in St. Louis, one was in Syracuse, New York. But I stayed there about 14 years, in boarding school.	45:38
Stacey Scales	So what I'm getting from this lesson is that, you can probably go a little while without seeing no White people at all?	46:03
George Ferrell	Well, it wasn't necessary if you were a student here.	46:14
Stacey Scales	Right.	46:17
George Ferrell	It wasn't necessary for you to. They had their town, and we were on—We were students. Uh-huh. But I'll tell you how close the school—	46:17

Stacey Scales	Okay. Okay.	0:00
George Ferrell	Okay. Dr. Moton who was the principal at that time, and by me driving the school's car, I used to take him down to have conferences with the mayor downtown quite often.	0:08
Daisy Ferrell	[indistinct 00:00:21]	0:19
George Ferrell	Yeah. I knew the mayor, Mayor Carr. There's a hotel downtown there named after him now. I know a few mayors; Johnson, Carr, Edward, Kevar and Lifer. I don't need to name the other ones.	0:23
Stacey Scales	So when you took Moton to the conference, the meetings—	0:46
George Ferrell	Oh yes, Dr. Moton?	0:54
Stacey Scales	Mm-hmm.	0:57
George Ferrell	Well, a lot of times I drove his Cadillac. He had a Cadillac. When I was just taking him to the train, Dr. Moton traveled in a drawing car. Pullman was segregated and he had this drawing car. He'd be on the last end of the Pullman train all the train. He had anything in there a man wanted in this drawing car. That's where he was put.	0:57
George Ferrell	And the funny thing, we had another fella here named Mr. Hosey. He was real light but he belonged to our race. And Mr. Hosey, I guess they never did ask him what he was. So when I had to go to the school to meet Mr. Hosey, I'd find him up in the Pullman. I used to laugh about that quite a bit. He was [indistinct 00:01:56] see what I mean? He was on the Black business thing. He traveled a lot for that. But when I go to meet one of them, I go to the train to meet the Pullman, I knew when Dr. Moton was, because he was way back down the track. The Pullman was long then. But when I go to speak with Mr. Hosey, I didn't know where he was, but I knew he wasn't back there.	1:26
Stacey Scales	Did you know many people that could do that?	2:20
George Ferrell	Well no, but I thought he was the most interesting one, because I didn't have to walk so far to get him his luggage and things. He could get on the Pullman up there and get off there. Dr. Moton though, he was real dark. It wasn't any question about it. He couldn't pass.	2:22
Daisy Ferrell	[indistinct 00:02:43]	2:42
George Ferrell	No at that time, you'd have Pullman trains, oh I don't know how long. We would start and part would be here and the other part would be all up down the road, long Pullman. That's how people traveled.	2:43
Stacey Scales	[indistinct 00:03:00]	2:55
George Ferrell	[indistinct 00:03:02] at that time. They had these little old [indistinct 00:03:04] then. I didn't see how many [indistinct 00:03:12], about five or six. Dr. Moton, Mr. Mack, two taxis and [indistinct 00:03:26]	3:03
Stacey Scales	There was a taxi company?	3:30
George Ferrell	Yeah, they had two taxi drivers. And subtract that from five and you had the number of people. I could have worked that problem.	3:32
Paul Ortiz	[indistinct 00:03:45]	3:49
Paul Ortiz	What was the—You said that you worked at the VA hospital.	3:49
George Ferrell	Yeah.	3:57
Paul Ortiz	What was the VA hospital like then?	3:58
George Ferrell	The VA was completely segregated. You know the history of it. The VA was built, because at that time Black soldiers, men, didn't have anywhere to get medical treatment. See segregation, they couldn't go into the White hospital. So there was a great need to make some facility for the Black soldiers. Dr. Moton, who was the principal of Tuskegee at that time, offered to give them land to build such hospital if they staffed it with Black officials.	3:59
George Ferrell	That's what happened. Of course you know they built it and they didn't staff it with Black officials at that time. Their excuse was that there wasn't any Black officials qualified to take over the hospital. And so Dr. Moton had to renew his request again. But after—See under that system, White nurses couldn't wait on Black soldiers. Of course you know in a hospital, you have quite a bit of helpless people and nurses had to do quite a bit, personal things. And so they had to—After Dr. Moton complained, then they staffed it with Black officials, Black doctors.	4:44
Paul Ortiz	[indistinct 00:05:36]	5:35
George Ferrell	A fella named Tom Ward, he was the chief. He was the manager.	5:35
Paul Ortiz	What was his name?	5:40
George Ferrell	Tom Ward. Mm-hmm, he was the chief. Yeah, that's what happened. They had a little Ku Klux Klan trouble too. But see by this being ROTC, the boys had quite a bit of ammunition over at the school. So the Ku Klux Klan, they'd withdrew their threat.	5:41
Stacey Scales	[indistinct 00:06:10]	6:05
George Ferrell	Yeah. Mm-hmm.	6:10
Stacey Scales	What was the threat? What were they going to do?	6:10
George Ferrell	Well, they didn't like it because they changed the officials. You see? [indistinct 00:06:19] was supposed to be staffed with Black people, Negroes at the time. So after it was built, they didn't do that. They staffed it with Whites, when the agreement was they'd staff it with Blacks. So when they moved the Whites to restaff with Blacks as they should have done in the first place, then the Ku Klux Klan didn't like that. You see? But see when it was staffed with Whites, the White nurses, they couldn't change bedpans and things for the Black soldiers. See what I mean? [indistinct 00:06:53]. Then after they changed it with Blacks, they could perform their duties as nurses and do what they were supposed to do.	6:12
Paul Ortiz	Did the people still talk a lot about that experience with the Klan in ROTC?	7:08
George Ferrell	At that particular time or now?	7:13
Paul Ortiz	Yeah.	7:15
George Ferrell	Very few people know about it now.	7:16
Paul Ortiz	But I mean, when you started at the institute, when you started working at the hospital [indistinct 00:07:24] trouble with the Klan.	7:17
George Ferrell	Oh, you mean the general public? If they knew about it, if they know about, no. They don't know the history of things like that. Now see that generation is all gone, dead. That was in 1923.	7:31
Stacey Scales	How long after that happened did you guys talk about it?	7:48
George Ferrell	Well, we talk about it sometimes now. (laughs)	7:58
Paul Ortiz	[indistinct 00:08:05]	8:02
George Ferrell	Yeah, we talk about it sometimes now, because I wasn't here, but I was able to know about it see, because I was right up the road there. I knew about it. So now we talk about it because the fella who was in charge of the guard at that particular time, he's passed. His name is Read. But it was talked about quite a bit about the time I came up.	8:06
Stacey Scales	Was there any other trouble with the Klan?	8:30
George Ferrell	That's about the only trouble I know of in that range.	8:33
Tywanna Whorley	[indistinct 00:08:47] I guess the relationship between Whites [indistinct 00:08:50] and the Tuskegee Institute?	8:48
George Ferrell	What you mean, the neighbors?	8:53
Tywanna Whorley	The neighbors.	8:53
George Ferrell	Oh, it was good. It was good.	8:53
Tywanna Whorley	[indistinct 00:08:59]	8:53
George Ferrell	Well you see, one thing about it is you didn't know who was Klan, because they didn't wear their hood as they do now. See you didn't know who they were. Do under that circumstances, it was just normal. But see now you have a general idea who the Klans are now.	9:02
Tywanna Whorley	When did you join the service?	9:31
George Ferrell	I went in the service December 27, 1943. I served—	9:37
Tywanna Whorley	Volunteer?	9:45
George Ferrell	No. I was working at the hospital at that time and I wasn't married, staying on the station. And I was drawing $24.50 every two weeks. And so if I went in the Army, my mother would get, that's at that time [indistinct 00:10:08] I was put in Class A then, that was the circumstances when I was put in Class A. By time before I went in, my wife begged me to marry her and so I got married you see. And so that made it, she got $50 a month and my mother got $50 a month. See, I was making a hundred dollars and it was costing me only $22. They took out $22 from my pay and left me with the rest of it. That was very few. I couldn't get no [indistinct 00:10:43] off of that. So I lived a religious life. So that's when I went in. I stayed in about three years. I was in the 4th Air force. I was heavy bombardment, B-29, B-24s.	9:49
Tywanna Whorley	How was it being in there in terms of segregation?	10:58
George Ferrell	Well, I was out West and it so happened out there, they hadn't made preparation for segregation as out here. They didn't have separate things there. That was in—I finished my basic in 1923, in March. I went to two schools. And in 1923 I was attached to the Air Force. They had one everything for everybody. Theaters, all that was one.	11:06
Stacey Scales	Where were you at?	11:46
George Ferrell	I was in Blythe, California and in Walla Walla, Washington, up near Seattle, Washington. And Oregon, because these bombers, that's heavy bombardment, the bomb planes that carry bombs. And so they would do high altitude flying down in the desert. You know it doesn't rain down there, no clouds or nothing. They do high altitude flying down there and low altitude flying up in Washington. So that's what happened. They come down there. It was just one camp, but they just moved us from one place to the other when the pilots were doing high altitude flying like that.	11:48
Stacey Scales	Did a lot of people talk about the famous Tuskegee pilots?	12:30
George Ferrell	Yeah, they did then. I never did go out to the base. I'd come home on furlough and after being at the base like I was (laughs), I didn't go out there. (laughs)	12:33
Stacey Scales	On your own time?	12:42
George Ferrell	No. (laughs) Because where I was, that's big bases. You'd have thousands of people, thousands of them running 24 hours a day.	12:46
Paul Ortiz	What was your job then?	12:59
George Ferrell	I was what you call a mess—See the Air Force, they didn't use GI food so much. And my thing was, every morning I would take a truck and go down to the wholesale house and draw a truckload of food, whatever they were going to have that day. I would go down and get the food and bring it up. And the mess sergeant would take it up. I was called mess administration. That was my job. But I had to get enough for so many men. See that was the job at first, because they stay open 24 hours a day. They had crews coming in all the time. The first one or two I missed out. But see the officers paid for this food. They pay for your food. They didn't have GI food like you do in the regular Army. So I was really working for the Air Force. But anyway, after you stay there a long time, sometimes you'd draw food for five or six thousand men. That was back then. But—	12:59
Tywanna Whorley	[indistinct 00:14:18] overseas and—	14:19
George Ferrell	No.	14:19
Tywanna Whorley	—do anything like that?	14:19
George Ferrell	No, I never did put in my application for that. I thought I'd rather fight in the American war. I never did go. I was about 34 years old. Yeah, I was. I put in there I felt like I was 34 years old. I was—	14:24
Tywanna Whorley	So how long did you stay in?	14:42
George Ferrell	I stayed about three years.	14:48
Tywanna Whorley	And then you got out?	14:49
George Ferrell	I went on what you call professional administration leave. See I was just on leave. I got all my raises and things so I just come back to my job. [indistinct 00:15:20]	14:54
Paul Ortiz	When you were in the service, did you talk to people about national politics [indistinct 00:15:31]	15:21
George Ferrell	No, because during the war, there was not too much politicking going on at the extent it is now. That's another thing that has advanced, evolved along with other social conditions. Since you got TV, radio, TV has really revol—what you call it—	15:34
Paul Ortiz	Revolutionized?	16:01
George Ferrell	Revolutionized talk about politics and those things now. People didn't know about politics too much then. And I'll tell you another thing that brought about involvement in politics is this free information. Reporters can go and report things that they couldn't report then. That was just about a racket until you had this freedom of information. These reporters, they go after stuff now. So it wasn't talked about as much then. And I wasn't [indistinct 00:16:40] because my whole life before then had been a hustle and bustle, trying to make a living.	16:03
Paul Ortiz	Did you hear of any of your coworkers at the VA hospital who were [indistinct 00:16:55]	16:49
George Ferrell	Oh no, but I'll tell you something that's very interesting. When I came here, there was two people here, two Black people voting, Dr. Moton and Mr. Whitfield. They were the Black voting in Macon County, two Black people. I used to drive them down to vote. they had the paper ballots at that time. That was it. Now back to your question again.	16:59
Paul Ortiz	Oh, in the '30s, were your coworkers talking about registering to vote or trying to?	17:38
George Ferrell	Oh, in the '30s?	17:39
Paul Ortiz	Yeah.	17:39
George Ferrell	Of course. That had always been an urgent matter. But I wasn't able to register until I got back from the Army. My wife registered before I did, because the judge registered her. See she had tried to register and they had barred her. And [indistinct 00:18:04] that's how she registered. Then after that, they started trying to register. But up until then, no. But it has always been something to look forward in, or wish. But when I came in, that's who was voting, two people in Macon County, two Black people.	17:40
Stacey Scales	Do you remember the first time you voted?	18:33
George Ferrell	Yes. Yes, I remember the first time.	18:35
Paul Ortiz	Could you tell us about the experience?	18:36
George Ferrell	Well, you had a paper ballot. I had no trouble at that time. We had no trouble here after the judge volunteered to put [indistinct 00:18:55] on the ballot. Because another thing, being close to the school, they didn't know the people who were cultured enough or educated enough from the others. So rather than try and make that discretion, [indistinct 00:19:19]. But now this was different from a lot of other localities. Down there in Mississippi, a lot of people got killed. We didn't have any violence trouble here.	18:41
Paul Ortiz	What year did you start voting?	19:33
George Ferrell	[indistinct 00:19:49] in the '50s. I don't know what particular year now. I have a record of it, but I don't know. Yeah.	19:53
Tywanna Whorley	Do you remember a man named Charles McGee?	20:06
George Ferrell	That was my teacher?	20:07
Tywanna Whorley	Really?	20:08
George Ferrell	Yes Lord, I do remember Charles McGee. He taught me sociology all the way through school, from introduction to sociology to the end of sociology.	20:09
Tywanna Whorley	Do you remember any organizations at the time, the TCA?	20:17
George Ferrell	TCA, yeah. He was the TCA. (all laugh). He was a teacher that you'd love to go to. He was here a few weeks ago. Where you heard about McGee?	20:30
Tywanna Whorley	[indistinct 00:20:52]	20:48
George Ferrell	Yeah. I know what you read was true, because that man could stand very few lies. He was a man who you could touch and who would touch you. You know what I mean? He was a good teacher. Let's see, what did the [indistinct 00:21:25] said? He was telling something the other day about a little segregated thing he read. I'm starting to think about it. He said—I spent a lot of time trying to get it boy, it's out my reach.	20:54
Tywanna Whorley	Did he ever talk about voting or just being a responsible citizen?	21:51
George Ferrell	Yes, he was the voter around here, because that's why things went as well as they did around here, because of him. He was so solid. He was a very brave man.	21:53
Tywanna Whorley	[indistinct 00:22:11]	22:11
George Ferrell	I mean, to put it in the old folks way, he stood up for what he thought was right. And back in those times, you may not know it, you didn't have many brave people back then. Well let's not say brave. I'll change that to demanding. He was very demanding when it comes down to voting and his rights, teaching you what was right and what's wrong, and about things like that.	22:11
Paul Ortiz	But would you do that in the classroom?	22:51
George Ferrell	In the classroom, yes, he'd do it in the classroom. His classroom was mostly, in the upper classes it was mostly book review. He was assign you, to give you a broader knowledge of what was happening, he would assign you three or four books to read. You go to the library and read the books. [indistinct 00:23:14]. That gave you a broader view about what he was saying.	22:54
Stacey Scales	Do you remember the titles of any of the books you read?	23:17
George Ferrell	I remember one book by Wells. I forgot his name, but at that particular time it was very popular. [indistinct 00:23:29] used to talk about it. I can't name other books. But you see the thing about it, we got what you call dual hours when I was here.	23:20
Paul Ortiz	[indistinct 00:23:42]	23:42
George Ferrell	[indistinct 00:23:42]	23:42
Paul Ortiz	Maybe something like History of the World by H.G. Wells?	23:42
George Ferrell	Oh yeah, you know H.G. Wells, huh?	23:51
Paul Ortiz	Yeah.	23:51
George Ferrell	You ever read his books?	23:55
Paul Ortiz	A few of them, yeah.	23:56
George Ferrell	Yeah, they're good. That was one of the books we used to read a lot. You see I guess sociology has changed a bit. I guess the texts of sociology and the function, a lot has changed quite a bit since then, because you have another whole society now. A lot of people said that this is a reworked society. But that isn't true. I don't think so. I think we're just in—Having come out of the other one and into this one, things are so different fundamentally and basically that I would say we have a whole new society, rather than being an old society evolved.	23:57
Paul Ortiz	Mm-hmm.	24:50
George Ferrell	I don't know anything—Of course you know, the old one will always be a base footing, but I think the working part of this one with technological things and everything like that, you take back then, when I came along, you had to learn your multiplication tables. You see they don't know such thing exists now. It doesn't exist, does it?	24:50
Tywanna Whorley	No. I mean, they still teach you in school—	25:16
George Ferrell	What?	25:19
Tywanna Whorley	But there's a faster way.	25:19
George Ferrell	Isn't that a waste of time now? I'm going to come down there with my little computer and show y'all how—(all laugh)	25:22
Stacey Scales	[indistinct 00:25:31]	25:27
George Ferrell	—show you how unnecessary that is.	25:31
George Ferrell	Yes sir. Boy, that's what I mean. See even that, a lot of things has changed. I would say it's a whole new society.	25:32
Stacey Scales	Did you know a man named Frank Toland?	25:47
George Ferrell	Yeah, he's here now. He's the historian. I'm before him. he's after me. My history teacher was named Mr. Reid. Mm-hmm. He taught us about slavery and some of the social features of slavery, about the slave ships and things like that. Mr. Reid. I don't know him, I just know Toland by his—I met him at certain meetings and things. I don't know anything personal about Toland. I think he teaches history. He's a good fine fellow. I think he is, yeah. He's very cooperative. Did you find him like that? Have y'all talked to him yet?	25:49
Stacey Scales	[indistinct 00:26:45]	26:43
George Ferrell	Why you act like that? Why you segregate yourself from these fellas? (Whorley laughs)	26:46
Stacey Scales	I used to go to—I did my undergraduate—	26:52
George Ferrell	Here?	26:53
Stacey Scales	Yes sir.	26:54
George Ferrell	Oh, why didn't you tell me? Why you sit up here and let me lie about it, boy? (all laugh) You should have done it on a fair basis, shouldn't you have told me?	26:55
Stacey Scales	I'm learning new things still.	27:04
George Ferrell	Yeah.	27:05
Paul Ortiz	I have one more question Mr. Ferrell. You talked about Dr. McGee being one of the brave, standing out, who were some other brave people?	27:10
George Ferrell	Well let's see, another one who worked with him was named William P. Mitchel. And Johnson, I don't know Mr. Johnson's name but this was a group. They would work altogether now, William P. Mitchel. Johnson I know. I can't think of his first name.	27:22
Tywanna Whorley	Johnson?	27:43
George Ferrell	Huh?	27:43
Tywanna Whorley	Charles Johnson?	27:43
George Ferrell	I forgot whether it was Charles or not. But yeah, Charles Johnson [indistinct 00:27:53] he wasn't all alone, I mean, he had people that worked with him. But I remember William P. Mitchel was one, because something came up that he was the one that the case was based around, something Mitchel did. I think he was [indistinct 00:28:22]	27:47
Paul Ortiz	Did you go to some of those early meetings, the TCA meetings?	28:24
George Ferrell	Oh yes I did, while they was formulating strategy and stuff like that.	28:28
Paul Ortiz	How would they make decisions, strategy as you said?	28:34
George Ferrell	Some of them, you know things we so simple back then. It didn't require a lot of strategy to combat thing. You know what I mean? Because it was just this is the law. Because you see, things were the law. It had to be done just like it was done. It was just a matter of [indistinct 00:29:16] the law. So there wasn't any strategy where this is it. This is it, and the law is behind it. Or are you talking about strategy to reverse segregation? Or—	28:47
Paul Ortiz	Yeah.	29:27
George Ferrell	Yeah. It wasn't much strategy you could do, because if you went to [indistinct 00:29:37] if you wanted a sandwich, you go in a place and they wouldn't serve you. It wasn't any way to make them serve you, because that was the law.	29:29
Stacey Scales	No strategy.	29:55
George Ferrell	The strategy was just to stand around, go down to that little window. The strategy was living. That required some strategy, living, to keep the peace, living peacefully, staying in your place. You had a place and you had to stay in that place. And your strategy was, how to stay in that place without going over the border line.	29:55
Stacey Scales	What do you that about like you said, you knew your place and things like that, what do you think about what started to happen later in Tuskegee and around the South. People would start saying, "This is not our place anymore. We're not going to take this. We're going to sit here until you serve us or until you kick us out." And things like that, they started to protest in the '60s and things like that. And then they said, "This is not our place anymore. We're going to change so our place is just like everybody else." What do you think about when that started to happen?	30:16
George Ferrell	What you mean? How do you think it affected what? I mean—	30:53
Stacey Scales	Well, you said say if you went to a window for a sandwich, they told you no. It wasn't too much strategy, you just walked out.	31:00
George Ferrell	Either take it or leave it.	31:03
Stacey Scales	Right. And I'm saying, later people started to say—	31:12
George Ferrell	Oh, I see. When people got restless?	31:25
Stacey Scales	Right. People said, "Hey, are you going to give us a sandwich or not?"	31:25
George Ferrell	They wanted this thing changed. Yeah.	31:25
Stacey Scales	Right.	31:25
George Ferrell	I see.	31:25
Stacey Scales	So what do you think about when that started to take place? Were you involved in that? Did you look at that as positive?	31:25
George Ferrell	Oh, it was positive, very positive. I didn't actually participate, because, you know, hey, as well, but I supported it. Yeah, I would call that the awakening stage, when you realized that you really have a problem, that you should do something about, the awakening stage. What did I think about it?	31:31
Stacey Scales	I mean—	32:03
George Ferrell	There was such a time.	32:05
Stacey Scales	Yeah.	32:08
George Ferrell	There was such a time, but it didn't happen all of the sudden. See? In other words, there was many of us who thought we were doing all right and we shouldn't rock the other race and we shouldn't bother them.	32:10
Stacey Scales	[indistinct 00:32:28]	32:27
George Ferrell	Yeah, so that's what I would call the period of awakening to the fact that we have a problem and we should do something about it. I think all of that was involved in the freedom riding and things. But I think until—We were trying to awaken the rest of the world and everybody that we do have a problem. We had been all along, since slavery, telling that the Black people of America did have a problem. But until the TV came where they could see we had a problem, it didn't matter.	32:28
Stacey Scales	Right, it didn't matter.	33:04
George Ferrell	The TV I think did more than anything else along that time, because it showed the people that we did have a problem. In other words, this is the great America. This is the model. We go everywhere else and fight for freedom and get everybody else straightened out. But we was hiding ours under the bed. You see what I mean?	33:04
Stacey Scales	Yeah.	33:30
George Ferrell	For our own convenience, just like that. And so that was another thing coming about, what you was talking about, to awaken people too. I think that awakened a lot of us Black people, that TV did. When they showed the dogs in Birmingham and water hoses, these boys rioting and they getting beat up and sent to jail, I would call that the period of awakening, because that's what it did. See that's what really brought about this law against segregation. They sent these fire hoses and see these people beating them up in Birmingham. What if you hadn't had the TV? No doubt, the world—you see, in other words, not so much the people in America were disturbed about these things, but other countries.	33:33
Stacey Scales	Right.	34:25
George Ferrell	And they can't afford that. You see? Other countries.	34:25
Stacey Scales	Can't afford to look bad to the world.	34:29
George Ferrell	That's right—we're the model.	34:31
Stacey Scales	So the news got around. How would news get around before about things like that?	34:33
George Ferrell	Well you see, you didn't have TV. And it got around by showing someone a picture like you do there. It wasn't very impressive. But when you see people abused like those people, those innocents, people like yourselves, people like yourselves, see. Oh, you don't want to—you want to—you the people, the person tomorrow, you don't want to live tomorrow with these things, they're the one.	34:38
George Ferrell	So that's what happened. Yeah, so—Do you mean the general feeling, what was the general feeling? I would think though that the TV did it more than anything else. That's just my person thing. I don't know. Because I had been here, and I'd seen the time—	34:56
George Ferrell	I used to go to the store to get a jug of kerosene. And the White boy would break my kerosene, throw a rock and break my jug, sheer waste. That was the first problem I had. I had to do something about it.	35:26
Stacey Scales	What'd you do?	35:46
George Ferrell	What'd I do? Well, my brother and I, one day my brother was doing something and I hit him on the nose and he—White boys went crazy. So I solved my problem. My brother solved my problem. So now, everytime four, five, would get on me, start to beat me, I just let them throw me, fall down. You get on top of them and start hitting them. Pop them in the nose. (laughs) They can't stand that, boy. That's how I solved my problem there. I had a problem. They'd take my soda and tear it up.	35:48
Stacey Scales	What would you drink?	36:21
George Ferrell	It wasn't no such thing as soda water, soda cans. I'm talking about baking soda.	36:25
Stacey Scales	Oh.	36:29
George Ferrell	They made bread and stuff like that, then. You couldn't—Merita was the first I person I know, made Merita Bread. But everybody made biscuits in the morning, cornbread at noon. That was good living, boy. (Scales laughs) I'm sorry that changed. (laughs) So that's what—having that.	36:29
George Ferrell	In other words, they could do anything to you and you couldn't bother them, because they could go on up to the Ku Klux Klan. And that's where I first learned about staying, momma used to tell me about staying in my place, because they said they were not worth that, you see, not worth getting killed.	36:51
Tywanna Whorley	Did you understand that when she tried to explain to you—	37:12
George Ferrell	Oh yeah.	37:16
Tywanna Whorley	—that there were certain things that you could do?	37:16
George Ferrell	I'm sitting here ain't I? (all laugh)	37:30
Stacey Scales	Right, so you really understood.	37:30
George Ferrell	You know I understood it, because I'm here.	37:30
Tywanna Whorley	I mean as a kid though.	37:30
George Ferrell	Oh well, you know that came along with everything else that came into your life.	37:30
Stacey Scales	[indistinct 00:37:35]	37:33
George Ferrell	And that was one thing that they put emphasis on, because your mother didn't want you to bruise and things. They didn't want you hung up, shot, and they didn't want you hung for nothing. See, I've seen a hanging. You haven't seen one.	37:34
Tywanna Whorley	You've seen it?	37:47
George Ferrell	I've seen hangings.	37:47
Tywanna Whorley	Here in Tuskegee?	37:47
George Ferrell	No in LaFayette, Alabama when I was a boy.	37:47
Stacey Scales	Would that fearful, make you not want to do anything?	37:48
George Ferrell	Well you see at that age, I didn't know the full meaning. I knew it was cruel. I knew it was—Because I was taught not to kill. And I didn't know how negative it be, how innocent people could be hung. You know?	38:04
Tywanna Whorley	Did you see it after the fact, or how it took place, the hanging?	38:23
George Ferrell	You mean after—	38:28
Tywanna Whorley	Yeah, did you see it after?	38:29
George Ferrell	No, you fall down into these things. You didn't see it anymore. I didn't. After they fall in this trap. You see, they trip you, you hanging up here, and they tch—tch—move the thing from under you, and you fall and the rope around your neck, it breaks your neck.	38:31
Stacey Scales	You saw the process?	38:49
George Ferrell	You see what I'm saying?	38:49
Tywanna Whorley	Yeah, I'm saying, did you see the whole process of them doing this, a crowd of White people around?	38:49
George Ferrell	Oh yes, yes.	38:50
Stacey Scales	And why was this particular person hung?	38:53
George Ferrell	I don't know. I wasn't old enough to be inquisitive. Of course, it wouldn't have mattered anyway. (laughs)	39:01
Tywanna Whorley	How was it to watch it? Were there other Black people around?	39:05
George Ferrell	Yeah, yeah, yeah. It wasn't no law against Black people watching with White people. You could watch all you want.	39:10
Tywanna Whorley	Do you remember what happened after they hung him?	39:14
George Ferrell	I don't know.	39:14
Tywanna Whorley	This person.	39:14
George Ferrell	See I must have been between seven and eight years old at this time.	39:14
Stacey Scales	Someone went and got him?	39:14
George Ferrell	Yeah, someone went up.	39:14
Tywanna Whorley	Did you ever hear of any other ones that—	39:14
George Ferrell	Oh yeah. That was the way of killing when I came along. We didn't have any electric chairs. And so you hang all criminals then. That's how they did it. They hang you by the neck until you're dead. That's the way the judge would do it. That was the way that it was done.	39:38
Paul Ortiz	What about lynching?	39:54
George Ferrell	Oh, yeah.	39:59
Stacey Scales	Saw that?	40:00
George Ferrell	Lynching? Yeah. I've seen after effects of lynching. See that was common too. That was the Ku Klux Klan method, oh, they'd lynch you. The biggest lynchings that we had was in Georgia where these two men was in jail for something. And they turned them out. These other two men, these four men went and bailed them out as if they're going to take them out, bail them out. And they stopped on the way home and took them up in the woods and shot them. You might have heard about that one. I mean, this was a good while ago. But that was about the biggest lynching, other than Emmett Till. I know you heard about that. But lynching was quite common back then when I was a boy.	40:03
Paul Ortiz	You said you saw the after effects of some?	40:56
George Ferrell	Of a lynching?	40:56
Paul Ortiz	Yeah.	40:56
George Ferrell	Yeah, yeah. I seen them after they were lynched, bruised, beaten, bruised all over.	40:56
Tywanna Whorley	Do you remember anyone, in particular? Does one come to mind that you remember?	40:56
George Ferrell	A fella by the name of Claude Johnson, I remember him. In fact, he was really mentally retarded. He preached all the time. I remember him quite well.	41:18
Tywanna Whorley	Do you know why he was lynched?	41:32
George Ferrell	I think he was supposed to have said something to a White woman.	41:37
Tywanna Whorley	Do you remember the year that happened?	41:41
George Ferrell	No, I sure don't. Claude must have been lynched about right after World War I.	41:49
Tywanna Whorley	Speaking of lynchings, do you know that Tuskegee had a study on lynching?	42:02
George Ferrell	Oh yeah. They kept records of lynching. That's the [indistinct 00:42:07]. That's where the annex is now, downstairs, that's where they are. They kept that record a long time. I don't know. One lady that worked in that study, she's still living. But she's in a nursing home, Mrs. Guzman, over there. Yeah, they kept up with all the lynchings.	42:07
Stacey Scales	How did the families respond after people were lynched?	42:33
George Ferrell	That I don't know. It couldn't have been openly, I know that.	42:40
Tywanna Whorley	Were people scared, especially in Georgia or in Tuskegee when they heard about lynchings around them?	42:43
George Ferrell	Were they afraid? Well, I guess so. I guess fear is what would keep you from doing anything to avoid such things from happening to you. Because it was quite common. Look about who was doing the lynching. Lynching was quite common. They had quite a few lynchings every year. You know it must have been quite a few, because [indistinct 00:43:19], they kept an office set up to keep a record of it. But that was the way of life. That's the Southern way of life.	42:52
Paul Ortiz	Mm-hmm.	43:33
George Ferrell	Quite a bit happened before you got here. It's interesting too, very interesting.	43:34
Tywanna Whorley	You said you saw the after effects of those lynchings.	43:45
George Ferrell	Oh yeah.	43:48
Tywanna Whorley	What did you see?	43:48
George Ferrell	Well you know, you were bruised, your clothes torn, scarred up and things like that. Because they used to lynch them, and I didn't see this, but I know they even burn them. That's true. They used to burn them and they'd drag them behind cars, behind wagons. They didn't have cars as much as that time. That's true. Mm-hmm. They meant business. They wasn't playing. Them boys with them hoods on, they wasn't playing. I didn't want them to get ahold of me. They meant business.	43:50
Stacey Scales	I was going to ask you about an incident that happened here in Tuskegee. It was the later part of the 60s, guy by the name of Sammy Younge. He was killed.	44:34
George Ferrell	Oh yeah, I know all about Sammy. Oh that was one I was trying to think of, wasn't it. That's right. In particular—	44:47
Tywanna Whorley	Who was that?	44:51
George Ferrell	You know, now, he must have been. Samuel, yeah. That was one I couldn't think—Samuel, that was him. Yes, sir.	44:53
Tywanna Whorley	[indistinct 00:45:03]?	44:56
George Ferrell	Sammy went to get a drink or something?	45:03
Stacey Scales	Used the bathroom.	45:06
George Ferrell	Huh?	45:06
Stacey Scales	At the gas station.	45:06
George Ferrell	He went to the bathroom, that's right. He went to use the bathroom at the gas station. Yeah, that's right. His father worked out there.	45:06
Stacey Scales	How did they act [indistinct 00:45:28]?	45:25
George Ferrell	Oh, it reinforced people's efforts to do things. It done a lot to awaken them to the necessity of doing things. You know? That—	45:29
Daisy Ferrell	[indistinct 00:45:44]	45:41
George Ferrell	—then here. I would think the most awakening thing was the three boys under the dam in Mississippi. I go through that little town every day going to— Philadelphia, going to her home. Yeah. I mean, I go through there too. It may be still [indistinct 00:46:06] now. But anyway, that incident and the bridge, the [indistinct 00:46:14] bridge and the—	45:48

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George Ferrell interview recording, 1994 July 01

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July 1, 1994

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Name: George L. Ferrell; Date of birth: 1909-05-29; Place of birth: Lafeyette, AL; Occupation(s): unknown; Residence: Tuskegee, AL
Informant ID: 677; Interviewed by: Paul Ortiz and Tywanna Whorley.

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Behind the Veil

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Behind the Veil: Documenting African American Life in the Jim Crow South interviews, photographs, and project records, circa 1864-2011, bulk 1990-2004

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The David M. Rubenstein Rare Book and Manuscript Library acquired the Records of the Behind the Veil Oral History Project from the Duke University Center for Documentary Studies in 1997, 1998, 2000, and 2002.

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George Ferrell interview recording, 1994 July 01

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1. George Ferrell administrative file, 1994

2. George Ferrell slides: "Daisy & [Josie?] Carter at Matthew home in Miss", circa 1935-1964

3. George Ferrell slides: "Daisy D. Ferrell", 1943

John Hope Franklin Research Center

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George Ferrell interview recording, 1994 July 01

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