Mary Abbyss interview recording, 1995 July 17

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	[Mary Hebert] Please just state your full name	0:02
	and when and where you were born.	0:04
	[Mary Abbyss] Mary Elizabeth Jones Abbyss,	0:06
	born in Winston-Salem, North Carolina.	0:10
	You want the date?	0:13
-	Mm-hmm.
-	March 18, 1936.	0:14
-	When did your family come to Norfolk?	0:18
-	As far as I know, it was 1943.	0:20
	Now this is sort of something I'm remembering.	0:23
-	But you were a small child	0:26
	when you came.	0:27
-	I was a small person.
-	Do you know why they decided to come?	0:28
-	I don't know the exact reason other	0:31
	than it was during the war,	0:34
	and my dad knew he could make a better life	0:35
	as far as working in the Navy Yard.	0:38
	That part I know.	0:40
-	Do you know what they did while they were	0:42
	in Winston-Salem?	0:43
-	My daddy was a chauffeur.	0:44
	My mother possibly was a housewife.	0:46
	My father	0:50
	owned a cafe.	0:54
	I don't know which was first,	0:56
	but I know those are two of the things I knew about.	0:58
-	And he worked for the shipyard when he came here?	1:01
-	Called Navy Yard, at that time it was called Navy Yard,	1:03
	during the war.	1:06
-	(softly) Okay.	1:08
	And did your mother work while she was here in Norfolk?	1:12
-	At that time she had five children	1:18
	and mother was a housewife.	1:19
-	Do you remember your grandparents at all?	1:26
-	My grandmother was a cook	1:28
	and she worked at a hotel called Carolina Hotel.	1:31
-	In Winston-Salem?	1:34
-	In Winston-Salem.
	And she was a renowned cook.	1:36
	I can vividly remember the things she would bring,	1:39
	like cold french fries and cornbread muffins,	1:42
	and pound cake.	1:47
	Those three things sort of stand out.	1:48
-	Would she ever tell you about what life was like	1:50
	for her when she was growing up?	1:52
-	No, she didn't.	1:54
	No, she did not.	1:56
-	Did your parents ever tell you those kinds of things?	1:56
	You know, what it was like for them when they were children	1:59
	and coming up through-?	2:01
-	Mm, not enough at this point	2:03
	for me to really say I have a recollection of things.	2:06
-	What do you think was the most important thing	2:11
	that your parents taught you?	2:13
-	Then?	2:16
	Or in general?	2:17
-	In general.	2:17
-	In general, my mother taught me	2:18
	that I could do anything, that I could persevere.	2:20
	She didn't use that word,	2:23
	but it means that there was nothing that I could not do.	2:24
-	And how did she show you that you could do anything?	2:29
	Did she give you examples?	2:32
-	I can tell you
	in a roundabout way.	2:33
	I was brown-skinned and my hair was short	2:35
	at a time when it wasn't popular to be that way.	2:37
	And I don't know-	2:40
	Well, she sort of said she wanted my self esteem	2:41
	to be enhanced, because I had very short hair,	2:45
	and she said if I couldn't do anything else,	2:48
	I could always be smart.	2:50
	And she always insisted that I keep my head in a book	2:51
	and be doing something.	2:55
-	So they valued education.	2:56
-	Absolutely!	2:58
	My daddy would use words such as,	2:59
	"I want you all to have what I didn't have,"	3:01
	and he called us chillens.	3:03
	C-H-I-L-L-E-N, or something like that.	3:05
	And he would use the expression, "You chaps have a chance,"	3:09
	C-H-A-P-S, "Have a chance to do what I couldn't do."	3:13
	And he would say, another little phrase he had was,	3:17
	"I'm not working my hands to the bone	3:20
	so that you all won't have a way in life	3:23
	or you won't make it."	3:25
	He wanted us to have a way in life that he did not have.	3:26
	And he actually verbalized that.	3:29
-	So he thought that in order for you to get ahead	3:31
	and to do better than he had done, you needed an education.	3:34
-	Oh, that was emphasized throughout our life,	3:37
	from the time I can remember, I could read.	3:41
	I remember my mother, books, and even to this day,	3:44
	she has books, and, you know, I do the same thing.	3:47
	I mean, since we do some of the same thing,	3:49
	a book is something we have always had around us	3:51
	all our life.	3:54
-	Did she teach you to read	3:56
	at home before-	3:57
-	Evidently,
	because I never remember going	3:58
	to a formal school until I got here.	4:00
	And see, in '43,	4:02
	I had to be seven, six or seven.	4:06
	I can't remember the month.	4:08
	And I never remember going	4:10
	to a public school until I got here, and they skipped me.	4:12
	And my first teacher was Miss Mary Cuffee.	4:17
	And she said I was smart as a whip.	4:19
	Those were her very words.	4:22
-	C-U-F-F-E-Y?	4:24
-	Uh, C-U-F-F-E-E.	4:25
-	Okay.
-	F-F-E-E.	4:27
	Mary Cuffee.	4:28
-	And what school did you attend here?	4:30
-	At the very beginning?	4:33
-	Yeah, the elementary school.
-	Called Providence.	4:34
	It was Providence, and I can't remember the other part	4:36
	because they had pre-ma,	4:39
	which was for a six-year-old, wasn't five,	4:42
	to 12th, or 11th then, it might have been 11th.	4:45
	Now it could have been 12th,	4:48
	but I can't remember if they had had 12th grade	4:49
	at that time or not.	4:52
	But every grade was in the school,	4:53
	and each room had two grades.	4:56
-	And that was-	4:59
-	If I'm not mistaken,
	it was a school with a first floor and a second floor.	5:01
	If I remember correctly.	5:04
	Had wooden floors and pot belly stoves.	5:06
-	Did the children have to take care of the stoves, and-	5:10
-	Yes.	5:12
	I mean, people were responsible then,	5:13
	people did what they had to do.	5:14
	It was not like you had to make anybody do it.	5:16
-	What were the textbooks like?	5:20
	Do you remember when you were-	5:21
-	I remember the first book, I was,	5:22
	"Look, look, see, see," "Jane, Puff".	5:24
	"Dick and Jane, Spot and Puff".	5:27
	Now I know it's Scott Foresman,	5:29
	at that time I did not know the publication,	5:31
	but I can remember,	5:34
	"Look, look, oh, oh, oh."	5:35
	I mean, those were the characters.	5:38
	The daddy had a briefcase	5:40
	and I can't remember what the mother did,	5:42
	but Sally was a little blonde head,	5:44
	and Dick and Jane were the older two.	5:46
	Those were my first books	5:49
	that I remember, you know, in a school.	5:51
-	Did they have all the pages in them?	5:53
	Were they ratty?	5:55
-	Nope.
	At that time I did not know the significance of those books,	5:56
	but they were the most obsolete,	6:00
	old books that you could have ever seen in your life.	6:02
	But yet we treasured those books.	6:04
-	Now, when I spoke to Ms. Dozier,	6:08
	she mentioned that you remember,	6:11
	like, if a child didn't have a page in the book-	6:13
-	Oh yes!	6:15
	And then the next person, like, okay,	6:16
	I can't say we sat two at a desk,	6:19
	but let's say maybe it was so crowded	6:23
	that you could easily pass your book	6:25
	if your page was missing.	6:27
	I mean, it was not unusual	6:29
	to have a book with no pages, or a half of a page torn.	6:31
	I mean, these are things I can remember.	6:34
	So that means if we were reading a story,	6:35
	if my book did not have that page, then the next child,	6:39
	you just automatically looked over at the next child's book,	6:43
	you know, it was not a problem.	6:45
-	So you all would	6:47
	make do with-?	6:48
-	Oh yes, oh yes!
	You used what you had.	6:50
	But, you know, nobody complained	6:52
	or fussed about the fact that you didn't have a page.	6:54
	Because, like I said,	6:56
	we were just so glad to have those books.	6:57
-	Did your school have a library?	6:59
-	In the elementary years?	7:01
-	Mm-hmm.
-	If they did, I did not know about it.	7:04
-	And you didn't go there for high school, so-	7:06
-	Well, we left that, because of segregation,	7:08
	each grade went to a different school	7:14
	at one point in my life.	7:15
	You want to hear something about that?	7:17
-	Sure!	7:19
-	Okay.
	I remember starting school in second grade.	7:20
	Can you put this on pause?	7:23
	[INTERRUPTION]	7:24
	We do?	7:25
-	Right.
-	I forgot what your previous,	7:27
	I forgot what your previous question was.	7:28
	But this is what I learned how	7:31
	to do from Ms. Mary Cuffee Reed.	7:33
-	So she taught you	7:35
	how to embroider?	7:36
-	She taught me how
	to embroider in school.	7:37
-	And you held on to that-	7:38
-	Mother kept it for years and years,	7:39
	and then she gave it to me.	7:41
	And this is something I took with me	7:43
	when I visited her recently.	7:45
-	Did the boys learn how to do that too,	7:48
	or it was just the girls?	7:49
-	That's what,
	I know it was a type of sexist, in a sense.	7:51
	And I can't say yes and I can't say no.	7:54
	I know the boys did things with wood,	7:57
	but this was actually done in the classroom.	7:59
	And I don't remember.	8:02
	I just can't say what the boys did,	8:04
	but it seems like I remember everybody doing the same thing,	8:06
	but I don't believe that there would have been a problem,	8:10
	you didn't have a problem	8:13
	when a teacher would tell a child what to do,	8:14
	and somebody sassing back and talking back,	8:16
	at that particular time.	8:18
	So I have a feeling everybody might	8:19
	have been doing the same thing.	8:21
-	Did she reinforce your self-esteem	8:23
	like your parents did?	8:25
-	Absolutely!
	A teacher was like a second parent.	8:27
	And at this point she lived next door to us	8:30
	and we esteemed her highly.	8:34
	It wasn't like we were on the same level,	8:35
	but by the same token, it wasn't like we were that distant.	8:38
	It was, you couldn't do any (laughs),	8:40
	the teacher knew your parent just like you knew your parent.	8:43
	And Miss Cuffee, she was a miss,	8:46
	Miss Cuffee stayed on us,	8:49
	but she never had problems with me.	8:51
	And I'm really not being vain.	8:53
	I was a very good student, and she just nurtured me	8:54
	and made me know how smart I was.	8:57
-	She didn't separate her class into skin color	8:59
	and arrange it hierarchical-	9:02
-	It was all,
	this was all Black.	9:04
-	Right, but no, I mean,	9:05
	lighter skinned, darker skin-	9:06
-	Not to my knowledge.
	I was not aware of that.	9:08
	I think she put emphasis on good behavior and smartness,	9:10
	but not the color part.	9:13
-	Because some teachers did do that.	9:15
-	Later that came along, especially,	9:16
	and that would run	9:18
	into how I knew I could never be a cheerleader,	9:19
	or Miss Whatever-the-Name-of-My-School might have been.	9:21
	I knew that that person was going to be light.	9:24
	And have long hair.	9:27
	I know I could never have been a majorette,	9:29
	I mean, what did I say,	9:31
	cheerleader?	9:32
-	Cheerleader.
-	I meant majorette.	9:33
-	So they-	9:34
-	The majorettes were,
	to me, they appeared to be the lighter girls.	9:36
-	Where did you go to high school?	9:43
-	Oh, that's what I started to tell you.	9:44
	Ms. Cuffee, at that time, taught me second and third	9:48
	in one room, as far as I know.	9:52
	In 4th grade, there was another teacher named Ms. Jenkins,	9:55
	well, Gerty Jenkins.	10:01
	She taught me 4th grade,	10:03
	and one of the things, at that time, they had 48 states,	10:04
	she taught us every state and every capital,	10:06
	and you had to remember them alphabetically.	10:09
	And she also taught me how to do cursive writing.	10:12
	That was Ms. Jenkins.	10:14
	All right.	10:16
	In 5th grade,	10:17
	I went to a school called Gilmerton Elementary School.	10:19
	That's across the bridge,	10:23
	and you had to ride a good distance.	10:24
	So at that time, if I remember correctly,	10:26
	mother had children at Providence,	10:28
	I was at Gilmerton, and she had somebody at Crestwood.	10:31
	The schools then, the grades rather,	10:34
	were segregated according to your school,	10:37
	depending upon the grade you were in.	10:40
	And that was a form of segregation, in a sense.	10:42
	Because the schools were crowded,	10:45
	you went to the school that your grade designated.	10:47
	So in 5th grade I left Providence	10:51
	and all the 5th grade children went	10:54
	to a school called Gilmerton.	10:55
	6th grade, I can't remember where I was,	10:58
	but in 7th, I know I came back to Providence.	11:02
	And at that time high school was 8th-12th.	11:06
	And, now, it could have been 11th,	11:10
	like I said, it seemed like I	11:12
	vaguely remember 11th grade being a grade	11:14
	and then they added on 12th,	11:17
	but I don't want to say that that's a fact with me.	11:18
	But it seemed like I remember children graduating	11:20
	from high school only in 11th grade.	11:22
	But I know my mother went to 11th grade,	11:24
	and my mother did finish high school.	11:26
	My daddy had a third grade education,	11:28
	but not equivalent to third grade as of today.	11:31
	But anyway, getting to high school,	11:35
	they had (laughs), you are not familiar with this area,	11:38
	but the schools was scattered all over,	11:42
	and Chesapeake was called Norfolk County.	11:45
	My school was now,	11:48
	at that time, called Norfolk County High.	11:53
	And they had everybody	11:55
	from as far as Norview Section, called Oakwood,	11:57
	Bears Quarters,	12:03
	Finch's, Doziers Corner.	12:06
	And what I'm saying, I can't tell you in miles,	12:09
	but people who know the radius of a map will tell you	12:11
	that these were some long distances.	12:13
	Everybody went to the same high school,	12:16
	even part of Portsmouth now, Cavalier Manor	12:19
	and it was called Norfolk County High, and Alexandria Park.	12:21
	And I went there from 8th, 9th, and 10th.	12:25
-	Did they bus people in?	12:30
-	Yeah, all these students were bused,	12:31
	I'm just saying,	12:33
	the distance is more than you would imagine today.	12:34
	It's not like busing from one neighborhood to another.	12:36
	It was busing from one county to another.	12:39
	I mean, from one area, rather.	12:42
	It was all called Norfolk County,	12:44
	but it was just such a (laughs) real large area.	12:46
	I mean, it would be miles, more than 20 miles.	12:50
	That's a long way.	12:54
-	Were there any teachers in high school	12:55
	that influenced you or impacted you	12:57
	and the decisions that you made,	13:00
	you know, to go into teaching?	13:01
-	Oh, that was already done by my mother.	13:04
	My mother always told me I was going to be a teacher.	13:06
	All my life, I just knew.	13:09
	I mean, I had no choice.	13:11
	My momma told me I was going to be a teacher all my life.	13:12
	I had two aunts in Winston-Salem who were teachers.	13:16
	Lois Clement, at that time, and Naomi Clement.	13:19
-	Lois and Naomi-	13:23
-	We call her Aunt Lois
	and Aunt Na.	13:25
	N-A.	13:28
	They were teachers, and they would come here periodically.	13:29
	And so those were the teachers in our family.	13:32
-	Did your mother ever regret not going to college?	13:35
	Did she ever tell you that-?	13:37
-	She didn't say it,
	but possibly.	13:39
	Because my mother overcompensated in every way,	13:41
	she was very industrious, very smart,	13:44
	and she was very creative in every sense of the word.	13:46
	So we know she should have been a teacher,	13:49
	or should have gone to college.	13:51
	And had she gone to college,	13:52
	she would not have had the opportunities we had,	13:54
	because the biggest thing you saw	13:55
	was a person coming out being a secretary or a teacher.	13:58
-	Right.	14:01
-	And maybe a nurse.
	But I don't remember Black women doing anything else.	14:03
-	Just being secretaries and teachers.	14:05
-	Right.	14:07
	And a nurse.	14:07
-	And nurses.
-	Mm-hmm.	14:09
	But there was no other degreed person that I was aware of,	14:11
	any Black who did anything,	14:15
	if she was a woman, she was a teacher.	14:17
-	So they didn't have female lawyers	14:20
	in those-	14:21
-	Not at all.
	I never heard of one in Virginia.	14:22
-	What about your teachers	14:27
	in high school?	14:28
-	Oh, in high school,
	getting back to high school, certain teachers stand out.	14:29
	Ms. Andrews was my home ec teacher.	14:33
	I started taking sewing, and even though I sew today,	14:37
	I think indirectly, she was such a disciplinarian	14:41
	and she was such a rigid, strict type person	14:45
	that I think I always remembered the things she did	14:48
	in that sewing class.	14:51
	But we didn't do as much sewing	14:52
	as we did learning the rules of housekeeping	14:54
	and things like that.	14:56
	But one of the people who stood out	14:57
	in my mind was my biology teacher, Mr. Clifton McDonald.	14:59
	One of the things you had to do,	15:03
	and this was 10th grade, was dissect a frog.	15:04
	And I was so afraid of it.	15:08
	He compensated and let me write a report	15:10
	instead of having to take away a frog,	15:13
	because he sensed that I was so afraid.	15:15
	And he also made me enjoy, you know, being who I was.	15:18
	I had a crush on him.	15:23
	(interviewer laughs)
	He explained it to my mother	15:26
	because that's when men were gentlemen,	15:27
	and I didn't even know what a crush was,	15:29
	but he let me know.	15:31
	I mean, he let my mama know.	15:32
	Can I tell you	15:36
	about my band teacher?	15:37
-	Sure, sure.
-	Mr. Oliver Owens was our band teacher,	15:38
	and he (laughs) encouraged my parents to get me a trumpet.	15:42
	And, I mean, he was the person responsible	15:48
	for us finding it.	15:52
	And if I remember correctly,	15:54
	it seemed like we paid somebody $5.00 a week,	15:55
	if not $5.00 a month, until it was paid for.	15:59
	But he was the one who made it very simple	16:02
	for me to enjoy band, and I loved band.	16:05
	And that was at Norfolk County High.	16:07
	You want me to stay right there, or go to my other,	16:09
	when they changed schools?	16:11
-	It's whatever	16:12
	you want to do.	16:14
-	Okay.
	In 10th grade they started building a school in this side,	16:15
	which at that time was called South Norfolk.	16:18
	This area was called South Norfolk.	16:20
	The whole area was called Norfolk County.	16:22
	And now this, it was good and bad	16:25
	because the sad part was,	16:27
	we had to break ties with friends we had met from 8th-10th.	16:28
	It was a complete new school.	16:32
	In 11th grade, we came to a new school,	16:35
	and even though it was inferior,	16:38
	it looked like it was a still brand new school.	16:40
	But later, you know, we realized it was an inferior school.	16:42
	So that meant we lost all those contacts	16:45
	that we had made from 8th-10th.	16:48
	But one of the good things was,	16:50
	the teachers there wanted to make sure	16:53
	that we would be prepared for life.	16:56
	And this is where I remember teachers	16:57
	who probably did a great job of trying	16:59
	to prepare us for college.	17:02
	Now, I met another band director named Ernest Owes.	17:04
	Now Mr. Ernest Owes realized	17:09
	that the trumpet was too hard for me	17:11
	and suggested that I use a baritone,	17:13
	and to my regret on one part,	17:16
	I would not read the bass clef.	17:20
	He translated every song that I was supposed	17:22
	to learn in band into treble key	17:26
	to make it easier for me to play the baritone horn.	17:28
	And that is something I vividly remember.	17:31
-	So they wanted to make it-	17:34
-	Make it easy
	for the student.	17:37
-	Could you describe some of the football games?	17:38
	Would you all play	17:40
	at the football games?	17:41
-	That was the only,
	well, talking about your mama's rule-	17:42
	I was raised in what was called Holy Sanctified	17:44
	in those days, but now we call it Pentecostal.	17:47
	Had it not been for band,	17:49
	I would not have gone to any school activities.	17:50
	I was in this choir, at that time you could be in choir.	17:53
	I got in everything I could get in	17:55
	to make sure I could go to some things.	17:57
	I never would have gone to a game,	17:59
	those were the days	18:01
	when you wore (laughs) uniforms with pants,	18:02
	and you didn't wear pants in ordinary life.	18:05
	That was the only way I could wear pants.	18:07
	Our uniform at Carver was dark blue and orange,	18:09
	and I can't remember what our slogan was,	18:13
	but that was the only way that I could go to a game.	18:17
	And we had some games, and we played,	18:20
	I don't know what class schools they would play,	18:22
	but they would.	18:24
	Oh!	18:25
	In band, we had what we had called band festivals.	18:26
	And we went to Petersburg and different places like that.	18:29
	And that was, like, an all day event.	18:33
	So I'm assuming it might have been on a Saturday.	18:35
	But I did go to games.	18:37
	But our school was not a top level team at that time.	18:39
	It was like a beginner's school, 11th and 12th grade.	18:44
-	Did Carver have a library?	18:48
-	Do you remember	18:50
	if Carver had-	18:51
-	It had a library,
	but it was not a bonafide top-of-the-line.	18:53
	And I'm sure that most of those books were old-type books.	18:57
	It was not a top-of-the-line library.	19:01
-	Would they have, like, missing volumes, and-	19:04
-	I have a feeling that I remember, I'll put it this way,	19:07
	nobody required us to write a term paper.	19:09
	I never went to the library to write, to do research.	19:13
-	I was talking to William Coker,	19:16
	who's Ms. Dozier's-	19:18
-	He was in my class.
-	And, you know, he was telling me	19:19
	how the desks were all old, and-	19:20
-	Everything we had.	19:22
	But, like I said, at that time, you didn't realize.	19:23
	It's when you look back,	19:26
	like, it was after I became a teacher	19:27
	that I realized how obsolete our books were.	19:29
	See?	19:31
	And it was actually during desegregation	19:32
	when I realized what had happened,	19:35
	because I was, at that time-	19:36
	This is really sort of jumping ahead	19:39
	of my high school days.	19:40
	When I started teaching in Chesapeake,	19:42
	I was in an all Black school.	19:43
	And I thought everything, you know, was all right.	19:45
	I mean, this is what I was accustomed to.	19:47
	And what happened, this person, Dr. Kingdom, sat in my class	19:49
	and would observe, and I just took it as an observation,	19:53
	this had to be '68 or '69.	19:57
	Well, between '67 and '69, I'll say between '67,	20:00
	because I started Southeastern in '66.	20:04
	And my supervisor was Mr. William Johnson.	20:07
	And Mr. Johnson would observe me	20:13
	and give nice evaluations and whatever,	20:14
	but this other man would sit in for an hour at a time.	20:17
	And I still never realized what happened was-	20:19
	Later I was one of the Blacks	20:22
	that went to Great Bridge Elementary School	20:24
	for desegregation purposes.	20:26
	And so I looked back in retrospect	20:28
	and said, "Oh, they sat down to make sure you were qualified	20:29
	to teach in a White school."	20:32
	Now I believe I'm correct on that,	20:33
	even though nobody ever said it.	20:35
	To have a person watch you that long	20:37
	and sense that you were okay	20:40
	to teach in an all White school.	20:42
-	Was he a White super-	20:44
-	He was a White supervisor.
	Mr. Johnson was Black, and the other man who came,	20:46
	Dr. Kingdom, was White, from the school board.	20:48
-	Kingdom or King?	20:51
-	K-I-N-G-D-O-M.	20:52
-	Okay.
-	Dr. Kingdom.	20:54
	And Mr. Johnson is still living.	20:57
	Actually, he has a grandchild	20:59
	in the school where I currently teach.	21:00
-	Did your parents regulate your social activities	21:03
	when you were in high school?	21:06
-	Such as they were, that my social activities	21:07
	by today's standard would be considered zero.	21:12
	Because, I mean, the biggest thing we could do,	21:15
	we would go to school and stay in church.	21:18
	And I worked after school- oh, let me tell you	21:20
	about my working experience.	21:22
-	Oh yes, please!
-	I have been working since I was 13.	21:24
	I worked at Batagallia Produce.	21:27
	B-A-T-A-G-A-L-L-I-A.	21:30
	These were Italian owners of a produce company.	21:36
	I stripped kale,	21:40
	pushed a hand cart with three bushels of whatever they had.	21:43
	It was a seasonal type thing,	21:46
	whatever was in season.	21:48
	And I worked and my money went directly (laughs)	21:50
	to my mother.	21:54
	And even if I had a check, it was on her,	21:55
	the hours were put on her stuff.	21:58
	Oh!	22:00
	Back it up.	22:01
	Mother worked after school punching	22:01
	stubs for the workers at a produce thing,	22:06
	but she did not have what you would call a full-time,	22:09
	the way most people would call a job.	22:11
	But she worked to make it compatible with the hours	22:14
	that we were in school.	22:16
	And she was called a strawboffee,	22:17
	I don't know if that was a negative or a positive statement.	22:20
	But from the time I was 13,	22:24
	and I'm going to say that was 8th or 9th grade,	22:28
	until I finished high school,	22:30
	I worked at the Batagallia Produce after school.	22:32
	And the hours would range anywhere from 3-11 to 12 at night.	22:34
-	How would you get your homework done?	22:38
-	That's why I said I had to have been smart.	22:39
-	Yeah.	22:42
-	Even then I didn't realize how smart I was	22:43
	because I was a good student.	22:45
	And plus it was required.	22:47
	You were going to work plus do homework,	22:49
	now you talking about discipline.	22:50
	So between work, church, and school,	22:52
	there was not much of a social life,	22:54
	but our social life centered around our church activities	22:56
	and all playing the piano on Sundays.	23:00
	We were limited with the kind of things that-	23:03
	Like I said, my family was a real,	23:06
	what would be called strict.	23:08
	Even in those days, we would call it strict.	23:09
	We were noticed as those sanctified folk.	23:11
-	So you never got to go, like, the drug stores	23:17
	for sodas and things like that?	23:19
-	No, there was a store in this neighborhood	23:21
	and we could go and get sodas.	23:24
	But my mom would (laughs), this is sort of funny,	23:26
	she would divide it up with water	23:28
	and put sugar and, you know, make it stretch.	23:30
	Or we would get packs of Kool-Aid and she'd make it.	23:32
	We had plenty to eat at all times.	23:34
	And mother cooked a lot, and she cooked a dessert every day.	23:37
	Now that's something that stands out.	23:41
	She cooked a dessert every day.	23:43
	Can you put that on pause?	23:47
	[INTERRUPTION]	23:48
	Okay.	23:48
-	When you were working for the produce-	23:50
-	Yeah, Batagallia.	23:52
-	Batagallia Produce,
	how much did you earn?	23:55
	Do you remember	23:57
	what you earned?	23:58
-	I can't remember if it was,
	it was a minimal amount,	24:00
	but it was a constant.	24:02
	Because my daddy worked at the, like I said, the Navy-	24:03
	He could have been working at the Lonestar,	24:07
	let's say he was working at the Lone Star Cement Plant now,	24:09
	because right after 1945, when the war ended,	24:12
	he went right across the water	24:15
	to the Lone Star Cement Company and got a job.	24:17
	And my daddy was industrious, worked all the time.	24:19
	To compensate for having five children and a wife,	24:22
	he worked at Batagallia Produce,	24:25
	but I can't remember what he did other	24:27
	than I know he cleaned the office.	24:29
	So that meant my daddy was there,	24:31
	my mama was there, and I worked.	24:32
	And whatever must have been the minimum wage at that time,	24:35
	that's what we got.	24:39
	What I got.	24:41
-	Did your brothers
	and sisters have to work also?	24:42
-	Yes.	24:43
	My sister worked for a teacher, and she cleaned her house.	24:44
	And my two brothers worked for a man who had-	24:50
	Everybody worked except my baby sister, Delores,	24:53
	I don't remember her ever working.	24:55
	But we were a year apart in ages.	24:57
	But my brother worked for a man who owned a wood yard.	25:00
	This was a Black guy.	25:02
-	Did they all get to go to college?	25:04
-	No, I'm the only one	25:05
	that went to college.	25:06
-	Okay.
-	And I'm the oldest.	25:07
-	How did the people who owned the business treat you?	25:12
	Were you treated well by-	25:14
-	Well, I would say yes,	25:16
	and I think we were treated well,	25:17
	but one thing that stands out in my mind,	25:19
	I think I told this to Ms. Coker-	25:20
-	Dozier.	25:23
-	Dozier.
	At that time, our bosses were our age,	25:27
	and we knew that they were young men,	25:30
	but we called them Mr. Gay, and Mr. So-and-So	25:32
	when they called us by our name.	25:35
	Now that was one of the things.	25:37
	But as far as being fair,	25:38
	I believe they tried to be fair.	25:39
	But yet, on the other hand, you sort of knew your place.	25:42
-	Could you describe the neighborhood that you lived in?	25:46
	What section of Norfolk?	25:49
-	Right where we are now
	are the woods where we played.	25:52
	We called these the woods.	25:54
	Where my house is, the city,	25:55
	I guess this became air property that nobody claimed,	25:58
	or taxes weren't paid, and this land was bought by the city.	26:00
	This particular area was a wooded area.	26:05
	And we just had the little hedges and wild roses.	26:08
	And my house would have been	26:11
	in the middle of Strawberry Lane.	26:12
	Where we were raised was	26:14
	in the middle of Strawberry Lane in Cardigan,	26:16
	where I am now, our house.	26:19
	And it was sort of, like, in a field,	26:21
	it wasn't a real street then.	26:22
	And we had, like, a little path.	26:24
	And all this area right here was sort of wooded.	26:25
	And we had unpaved streets,	26:28
	and it was a house that would be on the corner	26:33
	of where this Strawberry Lane Daycare is,	26:36
	which is Rhodes and Strawberry.	26:38
	And we had a best friend called the Hawkins family,	26:40
	and all their children played together.	26:43
	At at our house,	26:46
	everybody knew everybody,	26:48
	everybody looked out for everybody.	26:50
	And they had three major churches.	26:53
	St. Joseph AME, First Baptist, and Providence.	26:55
	So our lives sort of centered around that	26:59
	because the only time	27:01
	that I remember going to the beach	27:03
	was when one of those churches took	27:05
	what they called excursions.	27:07
	And we were allowed to go to the beach with our family.	27:08
	I don't remember going unattended.	27:11
	And I do know I couldn't go at night.	27:14
	And the other thing is, girls who didn't work	27:15
	at this produce place where I worked,	27:18
	in the summer, worked at the beach,	27:19
	and mother never, ever let me go work at the beach	27:21
	because that was considered worldly.	27:24
	So I could never work at the beach.	27:26
-	But on the excursions to the beach-	27:29
-	We had a good time!	27:31
	You had a great big picnic basket loaded with everything	27:33
	that people could cook. Fried chicken, cakes,	27:36
	pickles, potato salad,	27:39
	Kool-Aid in a jug.	27:42
	I mean, my whole, like, my daddy and all,	27:44
	there's seven of us,	27:46
	now that was an excursion for everybody.	27:48
	Everybody went.	27:49
	And if I'm not mistaken, I think we must have gone on a bus.	27:50
-	And did you all go to,	27:54
	is it Sea-	27:55
-	Seaview Beach.
-	Seaview.	27:56
-	It's called Seaview.
	And that was an all Black segment of it.	28:00
	But at that time they had an amusement park. At this-	28:02
	I can't remember if we were allowed	28:07
	to go there then or not,	28:10
	but I know it was something you could see.	28:12
	But Seaview was nothing but a beach,	28:13
	but it was an all day trip, and it was very good.	28:15
-	How was it divided?	28:19
	How did you know where Seaview ended and one	28:21
	of the White beaches-?	28:24
-	At that time it wasn't,
	they had more cottages on the beach than anything else.	28:30
	And I believe that there might have been a little	28:33
	board-type something,	28:37
	but the beach was not as crowded as it is now.	28:38
	So the Black area was just designated	28:41
	in that one little portion.	28:44
	So there was no danger.	28:46
	We didn't even see White folk.	28:47
	So their area was farther down,	28:49
	but it was not crowded the way it is now.	28:50
-	So you had Sundays off, though,	28:55
	you didn't work on Sundays?	28:56
-	Oh right, we did nothing on Sunday.	28:58
	Mother didn't even cook on Sunday,	29:00
	Mother would cook on Saturday.	29:00
	Every Saturday, she made macaroni and cheese,	29:01
	potato salad, cooked fried chicken.	29:05
	Mother didn't believe in cooking on Sunday (laughs).	29:07
	We did nothing on Sunday but go to church	29:09
	and sit in the living room and play music	29:12
	on the piano, church music.	29:14
	Or listen to the radio.	29:15
	And listen to, oh, you know, Christian music.	29:17
-	So you all would sing?	29:20
-	Sing, right, right.	29:21
	That was a ritual, plan.	29:22
-	Did this neighborhood have a name?	29:24
-	Yeah, called Westmunden.	29:26
	And even today it's called W-E-S-T- one word.	29:27
-	Oh, it's one word?	29:31
-	W-E-S-T-M-U-N-D-E-N.	29:32
-	Okay.	29:36
	What kind of families lived here?	29:37
	Were most of them	29:39
	working class-?	29:40
-	Most of them
	were working class.	29:42
	Ms. Cuffee, my first teacher, lived next door,	29:43
	but to look at the family,	29:46
	and I'm not taken away from her prestige,	29:48
	it was just a regular family.	29:51
	But there was another set	29:52
	of teachers called the Jones sisters,	29:54
	Miss Ida and Miss Susie, they were teachers.	29:56
	Mrs. Skinner, Mrs. Miller.	29:59
	There were some families who had teachers,	30:04
	but the majority	30:07
	of the people were a working class neighborhood.	30:08
	And most of the men worked	30:12
	at the Navy Yard at that time.	30:14
-	It's not too far away.	30:17
-	Right.	30:18
-	Were there any sections in Norfolk	30:26
	that were considered bad sections where you weren't allowed	30:28
	to go into?	30:30
-	I would say the Chase Street (laughs) area	30:32
	had a reputation (laughs). Called the red light district,	30:34
	they might not have called it that,	30:37
	but. It was like at night, it would change-	30:38
	We could go there because that was a Black section.	30:41
	And that's where you went to go to the Woolworth	30:43
	and a store called-	30:47
	Well, there was a clothing store	30:49
	at the corner of Brambleton and Yarmouth.	30:51
	And we had a bus,	30:53
	a red and yellow bus, called the new light bus.	30:54
	And that bus would take you there,	30:57
	and if you missed that last bus, you couldn't get home.	30:58
-	Was it a city bus?	31:01
-	No, it wasn't a city, privately owned bus.	31:04
	It might have been owned	31:06
	by the same folk who owned Seaview Beach.	31:07
-	So it wasn't a segregated bus	31:10
	where you had to-	31:11
-	No, right,
	that was a Black-owned bus for Black folk.	31:13
-	So you didn't have	31:15
	to sit in the-	31:16
-	Right.
	And to go to the city, you would have to walk all the way	31:17
	to South Norfolk and catch the trolley car.	31:18
	And that was very segregated.	31:20
	I mean, with a line on the bus,	31:22
	meaning you sat behind the line.	31:25
	Or stood, because if seats were empty in front of that line,	31:27
	you still stood up behind the line.	31:31
	You didn't go and sit in those seats, until 1954,	31:33
	or there about.	31:37
	Somewhere around-	31:39
-	So after
	the Montgomery Bus Boycott, then?	31:40
-	It wasn't, I don't know if it was,	31:42
	well, that could have been it.	31:44
	Then that's beyond,	31:47
	I know something very significant happened in '54-	31:48
-	I'm not sure-	31:51
-	That I remember,
	because it was before the late sixties,	31:53
	because this happened before I went to Norfolk State,	31:56
	because I remember my daddy,	31:57
	I'm sort of paraphrasing, he was afraid,	31:59
	the minute that it was decreed that it was okay	32:01
	to sit anywhere, I remember he told us,	32:04
	"Oh, you ain't obliged to sit on that bus like that."	32:06
	And we would, I was determined that I was going to sit	32:09
	in the front of the bus.	32:11
	Now I do remember that.	32:13
	And I remember his apprehension about that.	32:14
	So that was before Martin Luther King's time.	32:17
-	So that was before that.	32:20
-	That was before that.
	But so I'm saying it had	32:21
	to be after the 1954-type situation.	32:22
	That's what I think.	32:25
-	So did you go and sit in the front	32:26
	of the bus?	32:28
-	Absolutely!
	Because at that time,	32:29
	actually I tell you when it had to have been,	32:30
	it was when I was at Norfolk State.	32:32
	So it had to be between '54 and '56.	32:34
	Because Norfolk State	32:38
	that time was called Little State,	32:39
	Norfolk Division of Virginia State College,	32:40
	and it was only two years.	32:42
	So it had to be between	32:43
	'54 and '56.	32:46
-	Where did your family do their shopping?	32:52
	Did you go to Church Street?	32:54
-	Well, Mother-	32:57
	We didn't do a lot of buying,	32:58
	not a lot of buying,	33:00
	but if you really needed a certain-	33:02
	And you really got clothing more either for special times,	33:04
	like Christmas, Easter.	33:08
	Or, like, in my case, I remember needing some black shoes	33:10
	and a black dress to be at a convocation in Norfolk State,	33:14
	and we went to Rice's.	33:18
	But we went to a store called Anne Tell, I believe,	33:19
	these are Granby Street stores,	33:24
	but the only thing was, you couldn't try them on.	33:25
	You could go to the store,	33:27
	but you couldn't try the clothes on.	33:28
-	So you could not try	33:29
	on the clothes?	33:30
-	No, you could not.
-	How did you determine what fit-	33:32
-	As far as I know,	33:34
	I'm assuming your mother could hold it up to you.	33:36
	But I know you could not try on those dresses.	33:38
	You could not go in the dressing room.	33:40
-	What about shoes?	33:42
-	That was the part
	I was trying to figure out, how we bought shoes.	33:44
	I'm not sure if the same rule held true.	33:47
	I do know for a fact that we didn't go	33:50
	to what I called the better store,	33:54
	we went to a store called L. Snyder's,	33:55
	and I think that's on St. Paul Boulevard now.	33:58
	It's near the MacArthur Memorial now.	34:03
	But the shoe part, I don't remember.	34:05
	But, then again, you didn't buy that much.	34:07
	It wasn't like you'd go the way people go now.	34:09
	Every now and then you got a pair.	34:12
	For example, all children got shoes for school.	34:13
	So I can't remember how that was done.	34:16
-	But you do remember not being able	34:18
	to try on the clothes.	34:19
-	Absolutely.
	I remember not being able to try on clothes.	34:20
-	What about groceries?	34:22
	Where'd you all go for the groceries?	34:23
-	It was called Piggly Wiggly, it was in South Norfolk.	34:24
	My daddy had a bicycle, and he had a basket in the front.	34:27
	And I can't remember how he got those groceries loaded,	34:31
	but he was noted for going down the community,	34:34
	riding his bike and carrying all his groceries.	34:37
-	You all didn't have a car?	34:39
-	We did not have a car at that time.	34:40
	In Winston-Salem, he had a car,	34:42
	but when we came here, we did not have a car.	34:44
	From the time that I	34:46
	was a very little girl,	34:49
	I'm trying to, I can't remember when we got a car,	34:50
	but it wasn't while I was in high school.	34:54
	We did everything by walking.	34:56
	We walked from here to Campostella	34:58
	to go to church every single Sunday in a line.	34:59
	And we knew everybody from Westmont	35:03
	into South Norfolk to Campostella.	35:05
-	That's a long walk.	35:08
-	That was a long walk.
	It was a ritual.	35:10
	Like I said, that was something we did.	35:11
	And sometimes on Sunday we did it twice a day	35:13
	because you would go to,	35:15
	and mother always carried a shopping bag full	35:17
	of sandwiches, bologna sandwiches.	35:18
-	Would you all sing on the way to church?	35:22
	Would you sing	35:25
	religious songs?	35:26
-	Singing and talking,
	and religious songs.	35:27
	Always conversation.	35:28
	Always singing.	35:31
-	Did any of your relatives come	35:34
	from Winston-Salem to here, or was it just-	35:36
-	Only to visit.	35:38
	We were the only family.	35:42
	We were the immediate family.	35:44
	We had no relatives here.	35:45
-	Did you do any long distance traveling	35:47
	when you were growing up?	35:50
-	I remember going,	35:55
	you mean like to visit, or-	36:00
-	Yeah, to visit someone.	36:01
	Did you have to get on the train	36:02
	or on the bus to travel?	36:04
-	No, we didn't do that,
	as far as I recall.	36:05
-	Did you go by car, or-	36:06
-	I'm just saying, we just about stayed put, mm-hmm.	36:08
-	Okay.	36:11
	Did anyone else from your community belong	36:17
	to the same church as you did?	36:19
-	No, we didn't, and that's what made it such a lonely,	36:20
	that part was, you know, very difficult.	36:22
	We were the only ones.	36:25
	At that time, we don't remember,	36:26
	I don't remember anybody in the community,	36:28
	you know, who was not Baptist or Methodist or Christian.	36:30
-	Were you allowed to play with the other children?	36:33
-	We could play, with restrictions, limitations,	36:34
	meaning your parents, you know, had their rules.	36:37
-	Did they have to approve who you played with?	36:40
-	Yeah!	36:42
	Yes.	36:42
	We couldn't even go out of the yard without asking.	36:44
	And if you want to hear something funny,	36:46
	I got my lash, and we got whippings, I don't mean spanking.	36:47
	My mother beat me on July the fourth when I was 16 years old	36:51
	for going out of the yard to Francis Smith's house.	36:54
	My uncle Paul had come down here from Washington, D.C.	36:58
	And you know how when your parents have company	37:01
	you think you're going to do something?	37:02
	All I did, just walked out the yard with a group.	37:03
	And when I came back, she beat me.	37:06
	And that was my 16th,	37:08
	I know I was 16!	37:13
	I want to say it was July the fourth.	37:14
	I was 16.	37:17
-	So you had to ask permission to do	37:18
	just about anything.	37:20
-	To do things.
	Mm-hmm.	37:21
-	What about when you went off to college?	37:22
	I mean, did you just go to Norfolk State-	37:23
-	Right.	37:25
	I had an Aunt Mary who sent $100 for my graduation.	37:26
	My aunt lives in Washington D.C., and she worked,	37:30
	and she was, like, one of the relatives	37:33
	who made it well enough to send back money to help.	37:35
	She sent me a pink gown,	37:38
	but Mother never let me go to the prom.	37:40
	I never went to a prom.	37:41
	And she sent me a pink ballerina evening gown,	37:42
	but I never went to a prom.	37:45
	And she sent $100 when I graduated in '54.	37:47
	And that $100 was a down payment	37:52
	for me to go to Norfolk State.	37:54
	And when I went to Norfolk State,	37:57
	I was in the Noah Ryder's choir.	37:59
	I started the band, but I couldn't keep up band	38:03
	on a college level, so I majored in elementary ed.	38:06
	And we had a president named Dr. Lyman Beecher Brooks,	38:11
	and Dr. Brooks talked with parents to this extent.	38:15
	He fixed it so they could pay	38:21
	your tuition in increments.	38:24
	I mean, I'm not talking about hundreds of dollars.	38:25
	Like, tuition itself for the whole year	38:27
	was probably no more than $200 at that time.	38:29
	But that was a lot of money.	38:32
	And you could pay him $25 a month, or however it was,	38:34
	you could just pay	38:39
	in increments.	38:41
-	So he wanted the students-
-	Oh, Dr. Brooks is noted	38:44
	for wanting his students to succeed.	38:46
	You had to	38:48
	reach the academic status that he wanted,	38:51
	but students could enter.	38:54
	Now I did not enter under this status.	38:56
	I entered, you know, through the regular admission,	38:57
	but there were students who probably were not,	39:03
	you know, such good students,	39:05
	but they worked hard and they went to school	39:06
	and they were able to, you know, get the grades	39:08
	that they needed.	39:10
	And Dr. Brooks was noted for allowing that.	39:11
	That was just one of the things known,	39:13
	at that time it was called Little State	39:15
	because it was a division of Virginia State.	39:17
	And it was really called	39:20
	Norfolk Division of Virginia State College.	39:22
-	Okay.	39:25
-	So I went there from '54 to '56	39:26
	and I got a two year certificate.	39:29
-	Could you teach at that point?	39:34
-	No, no, no.	39:35
	Okay, at that time I had two options.	39:36
	I had an aunt who lived in Baltimore,	39:38
	and this brings a different side of my life.	39:40
	When I finished Norfolk State,	39:43
	they could not afford to send me to Virginia State,	39:46
	that's where people would normally go.	39:48
	And my aunt lived in Baltimore,	39:51
	they had this college called Coppin State Teachers College,	39:53
	and she knew that it was $25 a year tuition.	39:56
	But the part she didn't know was (laughs) you had	39:58
	to be a Maryland resident.	40:00
	So when they got me in Coppin,	40:02
	and it was not hard to do,	40:04
	they had to make a way to pay the additional tuition.	40:06
	But I finished Coppin State Teachers College.	40:10
-	Compton?	40:13
-	Coppin.
	C-O-P-P-I-N, Coppin.	40:14
	At that time it was Coppin State Teachers College,	40:17
	but it might be called university by now.	40:19
-	And they just trained teachers?	40:23
-	Right, it was a teacher's college.	40:24
-	What was Baltimore like as compared to Norfolk?	40:29
-	First of all,	40:31
	it was culture shock because of the city life.	40:32
	The rowhouses was something I had never been used to.	40:34
	But I got stuck right away into a church even stricter	40:37
	than the one I had been accustomed to,	40:40
	called the Church of God Elder Michaux,	40:42
	Lightfoot Solomon Michaux was the pastor.	40:44
	So there was no free,	40:46
	like, the freedom you think	40:47
	you thought you were going to have,	40:48
	there was no existence of that type freedom	40:50
	because we went to church every night there.	40:52
	But the other thing that I found out,	40:55
	every course that I had had at Norfolk State,	40:58
	I had to take an extra course at Coppin.	41:01
	And I don't know if this is a fact,	41:04
	but the standards in Maryland were higher	41:07
	than the standards in Virginia.	41:11
-	So did you have to repeat courses?	41:12
-	I had to repeat many courses.	41:14
	And that was when I found out at that time	41:16
	that the standards of education across the state,	41:18
	Virginia rank 41st of the 48.	41:21
	I found that out in Maryland.	41:25
	And another thing I found out was	41:27
	that they had better materials.	41:30
	I'd like to say even in college, there was a shock.	41:33
	And actually it took me one extra year to finish.	41:36
	At that time, it wasn't anything to brag about.	41:39
	It was like, it was something (laughs) my mama	41:41
	would probably have a hard time dealing with,	41:43
	but that's what it was.	41:45
	But I made it.	41:46
-	Was it different segregation-wise up in Baltimore?	41:48
-	Ah, yes,	41:52
	because for one thing,	41:53
	I can't remember if there were White students at Coppin,	41:57
	but I remember we had White instructors,	42:01
	and I remember I had never had a White instructor	42:03
	at Norfolk State.	42:05
	And my art teacher was White.	42:06
	But the other thing was,	42:08
	I can't remember if the bus,	42:13
	this segregation situation didn't exist there anyway,	42:15
	the way that it had been in Virginia,	42:19
	so you didn't notice the things there	42:21
	that you noticed in Virginia.	42:24
-	So they wouldn't have had the signs?	42:25
-	Oh, no!	42:27
	I never noticed the signs or anything.	42:28
-	I need to turn this-	42:30

Mary Hebert	Virginia.	0:02
-	[Mary Jones Abbyss] Oh, yes. At that-	0:03
	The most noticeable place,	0:04
	especially going to school, when I would come home,	0:07
	I came by the Greyhound bus,	0:10
	and there was a "Colored" waiting room.	0:12
	At that time, it was called "Colored",	0:16
	and I don't even think they even used the word "Negro",	0:18
	but they had a "Colored" waiting room.	0:21
	And I would carry my lunch on the bus,	0:23
	a lot of times in a shoe box.	0:26
	And I would have fried chicken, cake, sandwiches,	0:28
	you know, things like that.	0:31
Hebert	So in Baltimore, you wouldn't have to go,	0:32
	say, to the back of a restaurant to order food	0:33
	or something like that?	0:36
Abbyss	If we went to one, I don't think so,	0:37
	but like I said, I wasn't in that lifestyle	0:39
	of even to be going to one. So I don't recall.	0:41
	But yet I know going to stores, it was completely different.	0:44
Hebert	You could try on clothes in Baltimore?	0:48
Abbyss	As far as I remember.	0:50
Hebert	What about the restrooms?	0:54
	Did they have signs above the restrooms?	0:55
Abbyss	You mean- they had the water fountain,	0:57
	the restroom and the waiting room.	1:00
	That was a unique distinction. I mean, you knew,	1:03
	you knew where it was. Because on the water fountain,	1:05
	even if you seen it in pictures, in real life,	1:08
	they had "Colored" and a little arrow	1:10
	or an arrow would point where the "Colored" section was.	1:12
	I mean, this was prominently displayed.	1:15
Hebert	Were the, were they inferior water fountains?	1:18
	Were they smaller?	1:21
Abbyss	Well, by not going to, even knowing	1:22
	where the other was, I can't say, you know.	1:24
Hebert	Oh, they weren't right next to-	1:26
Abbyss	Oh, no, no, no. I mean, not. I didn't see whites	1:27
	in the section where we were, so, I mean,	1:31
	they weren't there. But I'm trying to think of what,	1:33
	the only thing that I knew was different was when we passed	1:37
	a white school, as opposed to a Black school.	1:40
	How well kept that white school was, how much bigger it was.	1:43
	For example, the school that we went to	1:47
	that was a complete elementary and high was no bigger	1:50
	than a white elementary school.	1:55
	You know, where it was just an elementary school	1:57
	as opposed to being an elementary and high.	2:00
	And at South Norfolk High School, which is now Oscar Smith,	2:03
	I guess, it was much bigger than, than what we-	2:05
	Our school later became Carver,	2:09
	George Washington Carver, and 10th grade became Carver.	2:11
Hebert	But Oscar Smith was a bigger-	2:13
Abbyss	It was called South Norfolk High School.	2:14
	It was bigger. Everything was bigger. Everything was better.	2:17
	Everything was cleaner.	2:19
	So you could just see the difference.	2:20
	(coughs)	2:22
Hebert	How did that make you feel?	2:24
	Did you realize it at the time when you were growing up,	2:25
	that there was this big difference between the two?	2:28
Abbyss	I think I remembered it more within my race	2:32
	than I did out of my race. I was aware that I had short hair	2:36
	and that my skin was real dark	2:40
	because that's when a lighter person had more prominence.	2:42
	I mean, that's, that's not even white.	2:46
	You just knew white- you thought lighter folk were better	2:48
	and you automatically thought white folk were better.	2:51
	(coughs) Excuse me.	2:53
Hebert	But that's not something that your parents tried,	2:54
	your parents tried to instill like self confidence in you?	2:57
Abbyss	They did try to instill the self confidence.	3:00
	My mother, I don't, I can't remember	3:02
	exactly how she said it, but even she,	3:04
	she would always tell me, "Mary Elizabeth,	3:06
	you are pretty with your little teas and tan self."	3:09
	She would, she, I could tell she was making an effort	3:11
	to make me feel good about myself, especially with my hair.	3:14
	She straightened my hair every day.	3:19
	That's when people used a hot comb and grease.	3:20
	So she tried her best to do everything she could to enhance	3:22
	and make me feel like a better person.	3:25
	And I was aware that she was doing that.	3:27
Hebert	But the lighter-skinned people got more-	3:30
Abbyss	That was even in the family, within a family.	3:32
	Yes. Lighter people to me had the better position.	3:35
	And I'm trying to, the biggest place where I noticed it was	3:41
	like in high school, especially in 11th grade and 12th.	3:45
	I just know all, I can't remember if they were cheerleaders,	3:48
	but I know all the majorettes basically	3:53
	to me appeared to be light.	3:55
	And if they had a "Miss Homecoming," she was light.	3:57
Hebert	And so the prom queen would've been light.	4:00
	The prom queen-	4:03
Abbyss	Yeah. Right. Right.	4:03
	Anybody of importance in school basically was light.	4:04
Hebert	Did you find that when you went up	4:09
	to Baltimore and to college?	4:10
Abbyss	In Baltimore, the culture shock was	4:13
	how people teased me about my Southern dialect.	4:17
	I remember the people laughed at me	4:20
	and made fun of how I talked.	4:21
	And that was before television, you know,	4:23
	so that meant, that was a great distinction, you know,	4:25
	with a Southern, a real Southern dialect.	4:27
	So at that time we called it "talking flat."	4:29
	And I remember I didn't put endings on words,	4:32
	and people used to make a great deal over anything	4:35
	that I said, I said in a funny way.	4:38
	I remember I called the word "equip", "equipped".	4:41
	It was just like a, you know, a habit,	4:43
	and people used to mock, they just mocked the way I talked.	4:45
	And this was at a Black college.	4:48
Hebert	But you were Southern. And most of them weren't.	4:51
Abbyss	Right. Um-hum.	4:53
Hebert	When you came back,	4:55
	did you have trouble finding a job teaching?	4:56
Abbyss	Well, I taught in- Okay, one of the	4:58
	stipulations at Coppin was, after I had been	5:00
	there a year, I automatically was a Maryland resident.	5:03
	So my last year, I actually paid my own tuition.	5:07
	My daddy used to send me $5 a week.	5:09
	That sounds like a minimum amount,	5:11
	but that was a lot of money.	5:12
	And I paid my own tuition, which was $25 a year.	5:14
	And one of the regulations, stipulations, was you taught	5:17
	in Maryland for two years. It's like a blessing in disguise	5:20
	because it was easy to get a job then.	5:23
	And I got a job in east Baltimore, and I rode a bus,	5:27
	wore a hat and wore white gloves.	5:30
	Teachers were expected to be pillars of the community.	5:33
	I mean, there was a certain distinction,	5:36
	and teachers at that time stood out.	5:38
	You knew a teacher from other folk.	5:40
	So I remember being- wore heels all the time,	5:42
	even in the classroom.	5:45
	But I remember the practice teacher person,	5:47
	when we did our practice teaching, you had to go "dress."	5:51
	I mean, what we call dress now	5:54
	would be considered casual then.	5:56
	You actually wore a suit, heels,	5:58
	and they were called stockings instead of panty hose.	6:01
Hebert	And so you had to dress up.	6:04
Abbyss	Had to dress up. You, you just looked the part.	6:05
	That was just one of those things.	6:08
Hebert	And so you taught there for two years.	6:10
Abbyss	I know I did my two years-	6:14
Hebert	In Baltimore.	6:15
Abbyss	In Baltimore, 'cause I finished in '60.	6:16
	I could have taught three years there	6:20
	'cause I got married in '62.	6:23
Hebert	Was going to college, sending you to college	6:26
	a financial hardship on your family?	6:29
Abbyss	Absolutely. That was one of the reasons why-	6:31
	Okay, when I told you I worked at Batagallia,	6:33
	the thing that saved me from working	6:37
	in that produce company was going to school.	6:38
	So once I started college,	6:42
	I was working for a teacher named Miss Adelpha Howe-Frazier.	6:44
	And I was doing housework for her,	6:49
	but I don't remember doing it the whole time.	6:51
	And after a point, my brothers were working,	6:53
	and then that was at the point when I was not required	6:57
	to actually work the way I used to	7:01
	because I remember actually coming home and having to study.	7:02
	And I had to write papers and things,	7:05
	but they were not scholarly the way that papers are now.	7:08
	I actually did my most scholarly paper	7:11
	on the graduate level. But when I was in college,	7:14
	for example, at Norfolk State, what was considered scholarly	7:17
	was nothing in comparison to the workload that I had	7:21
	when I went to Coppin.	7:24
	And then I finished Coppin, just as I said,	7:26
	after taking additional courses plus, you know,	7:28
	going on. Before I could even be in a regular program,	7:31
	I had to take additional courses.	7:34
	But part of it was their requirements were higher,	7:36
	and the other part was the deficits.	7:40
	And it was only on graduate level that I realized how,	7:44
	you know, you know, each time it was, you saw a difference.	7:48
Hebert	So your education, say, in Norfolk	7:52
	as a high school student and a college student,	7:55
	didn't meet up to the standards in Maryland?	7:58
Abbyss	Right. Right. Absolutely.	8:00
	That was when I first realized-	8:02
	but it was not depressing enough to make me actually,	8:04
	you know, draw back from it.	8:09
	It was just like, I always had that.	8:11
	I remember one time I stopped-now, this is probably	8:12
	the part my mama really didn't like.	8:15
	I was, I didn't stop because I was an inferior student.	8:16
	But that, at that time I was going to church.	8:19
	I was in this church, and I mean,	8:21
	I went to church every single night,	8:23
	and I was keeping my aunt's children.	8:24
	She had a lot of children and still trying to go to school.	8:26
	And my, I became behind in my studies,	8:28
	and without announcing to my mother,	8:32
	I just stopped school and just kept on going to church.	8:34
	And then I'll never forget it. That's when you-	8:37
	By that time, my daddy had a car.	8:39
	Okay. My daddy got a car evidently when I was away,	8:42
	'cause he used to always meet me at the bus stop.	8:46
	He had a blue car.	8:47
	I'll never forget it.	8:49
	My mama and daddy came up there	8:50
	in their Chevrolet unannounced and gave me an ultimatum.	8:51
	They said either I was going to get myself back in school.	8:54
	And that was when parents would go actually to the school	8:57
	and talk to the president. I mean, it's not,	8:59
	when you did anything in writing.	9:01
	My mother said I was coming home in Virginia	9:02
	or I was going to get myself back in college.	9:06
	But it wasn't, I didn't quit college	9:07
	for a wrong, wrong reason, but she just didn't know.	9:09
	And all my transcripts at that time were sent home.	9:11
	That's when people respected your parents.	9:14
	And when she found out that I- there was no transcript	9:16
	and I can't remember exactly how she found out everything,	9:19
	you know, that I do know, they came to Maryland unannounced.	9:22
Hebert	And they told you to go to school.	9:25
	So that they went up to Maryland?	9:27
Abbyss	They came unannounced	9:29
	and then we had a little falling out.	9:31
	You don't have to put this on the record.	9:33
	They had a little falling out	9:34
	with my aunt that I was staying with,	9:35
	but I'm just telling you the scenario.	9:36
	But we have since made up with my aunt.	9:38
Hebert	So that, that they weren't happy that your-	9:41
Abbyss	They weren't happy that I was not-	9:43
	Remember I'm the first born.	9:44
Hebert	Right.	9:46
Abbyss	Mother- They had five children, and it's like,	9:47
	colleges meant everything to them. I mean, my brother	9:50
	worked at- By that time, my mama had a job	9:53
	working as a nurse at Norfolk General Hospital.	9:55
	And my brother worked, and my brother bought me	10:01
	an Aqua Marine radio. So I could keep time, a clock radio.	10:02
	That was for me to go up there in Baltimore.	10:06
	My brother worked at the hospital and mother, I mean,	10:09
	she was just smart enough. She knew how to pool that money.	10:11
	It was his working with her that sent me to college,	10:13
	that everybody worked so I could go to college.	10:17
Hebert	So you did they feel like they were	10:20
	sacrificing for you to be able to get-?	10:22
Abbyss	They knew they were sacrificing, but it was done.	10:24
	It was not, there was not a problem with it.	10:26
	It was like, it was, that was their plan.	10:28
	That was their plan.	10:30
	They were going to get me through college.	10:31
	And that's what they did.	10:32
Hebert	Did they choose you above the others?	10:33
Abbyss	Well, I was the oldest and first.	10:35
Hebert	So you went first.	10:37
Abbyss	Okay, now if I jumped down the line a little bit,	10:38
	when I finished college, the first thing I did after,	10:41
	I bought a gray Lady Baltimore suitcase.	10:44
	And that was when I didn't know about charge accounts.	10:46
	And you got paid once a month. I paid everything.	10:49
	At that time I would pay cash.	10:53
	I bought a Lady Baltimore suitcase set, a pair of red shoes,	10:54
	and a watch. And I came home.	10:58
	And I remember what I would do.	11:00
	I would buy clothes, and I would give them to my sisters.	11:02
	or I would send them to my sisters.	11:05
	That was my way of paying back. And after that,	11:05
	because my parents requested nothing of me	11:08
	of a monetary nature, every holiday	11:11
	I bought my daddy a complete outfit.	11:15
	I can't remember exactly what I bought mother.	11:17
	I know we gave her money, but I mean,	11:19
	that was my way of payback. So to answer you,	11:20
	I don't think they required it of me and even expected	11:24
	because at the point I had bought my daddy so many suits.	11:27
	He had never had that many suits in his life.	11:30
	Finally, he just told me to stop, you know.	11:32
	But, I mean my daddy, backing up a little bit,	11:34
	coming through, he had one suit	11:38
	that lasts him a whole year.	11:40
	That was in our, you know, coming up days.	11:42
Hebert	And then after you-	11:45
Abbyss	I graduated. That was the one thing that I did.	11:46
	I remember distinctly he got something from me	11:48
	of an outfit, nature, Christmas, Easter, and Father's Day,	11:51
	those three times. 'Cause he didn't require anything.	11:55
	He didn't, you know, he didn't require anything.	11:58
	And what I wanted to do, I sent money to my mother,	12:00
	and I can't remember how much,	12:03
	but I was in a position at that time to send my sisters,	12:04
	'cause see my, okay, my one sister had already married.	12:07
	That was Doris. And she's the third born. Fourth.	12:11
	There was five of us, Tim, Ed, Doris, and Delores.	12:15
	My two brothers, one brother had gone in the service.	12:18
	That was Ed. Tim was working in the hospital,	12:22
	and he later went into the Army	12:24
	and made a career of it, twenty years.	12:26
	and Delores was the baby. So by the time I finished college,	12:28
	it was only one child because it was a year difference.	12:31
	It was only one child home, but she chose not to go,	12:34
	go to school either.	12:36
Hebert	She, she had the opportunity	12:37
Abbyss	She, but she benefited in high school	12:39
	from my clothes, you know, from things that I sent.	12:41
	But she did not choose to go to college.	12:45
	So she got married in '61.	12:46
Hebert	And you said you got married in 1962.	12:48
Abbyss	In '62. I'm on a second marriage.	12:50
	I got married first time in '62.	12:51
Hebert	How did your parents feel about that?	12:56
	Were they happy?	12:57
Abbyss	(laughs) Not really.	12:58
	Not really, because my mother did not approve. Like I,	13:00
	I married sort of fast, a person	13:04
	whose mother was in the church and who told him about me.	13:09
	It was more of a, it was more of a mail-type marriage	13:12
	'cause he was in the Air Force, and I met him	13:17
	only like on a coming home from the service	13:19
	on a Christmas break or whatever.	13:24
	And next thing I knew we were corresponding.	13:25
	It was more of a correspondence-type marriage. And uh-	13:27
Hebert	Did you have a big wedding?	13:31
Abbyss	No, no, not at all.	13:32
	I got married in his mother's living room.	13:33
	It was very small.	13:35
Hebert	Did your parents-?	13:36
Abbyss	My parents came, but they- (laughs)	13:37
	my sister got married one day, and I got married the next.	13:40
	It was not even planned like that, you know.	13:42
Hebert	And when did you move back to Norfolk?	13:46
Abbyss	During that marriage, my husband	13:49
	was in the Air Force, and I lived and taught in Japan.	13:50
Hebert	You lived in Japan?	13:52
Abbyss	I lived in Japan. Now that was one of my,	13:53
	that was a culture shock in one sense.	13:57
	But that was one of my more meaningful learning experiences,	14:00
	meaning I developed an appreciation for America.	14:03
Hebert	What kinds of things?	14:07
Abbyss	When I realized how much we had and how little-	14:10
	And that was at the time when Japanese people were not	14:13
	the way they are now. This was in the '60s, the early '60s.	14:16
	One of the things that happened while I was overseas,	14:20
	Kennedy died, and our family was like a pro-Kennedy-type.	14:21
	When I was in Japan, I noticed that, I had a maid in Japan.	14:28
	I had a maid, and after- Okay, one of the things	14:32
	I found out there was every state in the United States	14:35
	required a certificate. And in Maryland,	14:39
	I didn't have a certificate.	14:42
	And in order to teach in the dependent schools,	14:43
	and I did teach eventually,	14:45
	I had to get a special letter from somebody in Maryland	14:47
	stating that Maryland did not require a certificate	14:50
	for a person to teach.	14:53
	And so I taught in the dependent schools in Japan,	14:54
	and I formed a long relationship with an (indistinct) family	14:58
	that lasted so long that even years later	15:02
	I used to write them and send a card.	15:05
	And one year I didn't get a card from this couple	15:07
	and found out that their daughter Susan had been killed.	15:11
	And so even to this day, I still send a card to the family.	15:14
Hebert	So even with all the segregation	15:18
	that still existed-	15:20
Abbyss	Overseas, you didn't experience segregation	15:21
	because the military did not tolerate it.	15:23
	So that's why I was saying it was a new type experience.	15:25
	I mean, that was when I met white folk on a level	15:28
	that if there was a problem, I never noticed it	15:32
	the way you would have done in the States,	15:34
	because I met people from all walks of life.	15:36
	That segregation was, my husband was an enlisted man,	15:39
	and teachers had officer privileges,	15:43
	and I could have gone to the officer club,	15:46
	which I chose not to do because he could not go.	15:48
	So that's why I say it was a shock of a different nature.	15:51
	So all throughout my life, I found out	15:54
	different little ways that you get those type problems.	15:56
Hebert	But even with the segregation in America,	16:01
	you still saw it as being better than the-?	16:03
Abbyss	Than Japan. Okay. I think I'm saying two things.	16:05
	The things in America that I took for granted.	16:10
Hebert	Right.	16:12
Abbyss	It was in Japan that I realized	16:13
	how much we had food in every sense of the way,	16:14
	as far as the way of living.	16:17
	The other learning experience that I learned was,	16:20
	that's when I learned that all white people were not	16:22
	what I thought they were because in Japan,	16:25
	everybody in the military got along as a family, everybody.	16:27
Hebert	(indistinct)	16:31
Abbyss	So I did not, for example,	16:32
	the (indistinct) were Southern folks, but you-	16:34
	Because by teaching	16:36
	in the military the dependent school system,	16:37
	if I remember correctly, you could not,	16:39
	they could not do those things to you because the military	16:42
	had a different standard-	16:45
Hebert	Right.	16:45
Abbyss	-that the rest of the world did not have.	16:46
	That's when I realized that people got along. I mean,	16:49
	that was the first time I saw Blacks, like my husband,	16:52
	everybody got along in the military.	16:54
Hebert	Was that the first time you really	16:56
	interacted with-?	16:58
Abbyss	Right. That was the first time, right,	16:58
	that was the first time I had even interacted.	17:00
	Before it was like on the outside looking in.	17:02
	And at first I was a little bit hesitant,	17:04
	but it made it much easier later when I really did come back	17:06
	and enter the desegregated situation.	17:10
	I didn't realize what a neat experience	17:12
	the Japanese experience had been.	17:15
	And that made it so easy wherein, had I just been thrust	17:17
	into an all white, I never would've been prepared.	17:21
Hebert	So you taught white children at the dependent-	17:24
Abbyss	Right. Actually they had more whites than Blacks.	17:25
Abbyss	You mentioned Kennedy's death a minute ago.	17:29
	Did you all, your family perceive him as being helpful to-?	17:33
Abbyss	Like, it was almost like this savior	17:36
	of a, in a sense. It was like he was a, okay.	17:38
	If you know how some people feel about Martin Luther King,	17:41
	if there were, it was almost like	17:44
	the two Kennedy brothers and Martin Luther King,	17:46
	that's not really just like a little cliche.	17:49
	It was something like, and even President Roosevelt,	17:51
	when I was a little girl,	17:54
	I remember my daddy used to sort of esteem him.	17:55
	And I don't know if it was because of the different programs	17:59
	that he set up during the war,	18:02
	but it had to be something he knew about,	18:03
	but I know he esteemed him in some kind of way, you know.	18:05
	So Kennedy felt in that same, you know, category.	18:09
Hebert	And along with Martin Luther King-?	18:12
Abbyss	Right, along with Kennedy and Martin Luther King	18:14
	in a Black, in our community, to me	18:16
	could have been one and the same.	18:19
Hebert	So you all, you all were aware	18:21
	of Martin Luther King, what was going on.	18:23
Abbyss	Very much aware. But now the one thing,	18:25
	the one thing overseas, I just didn't realize	18:29
	how much devastation took place until later years	18:32
	when I saw some of this stuff on TV, but we had an inkling.	18:35
	But the Kennedy thing was one of the biggest things	18:39
	that I remember. But it was after looking at-	18:40
	what the Prize?	18:45
Hebert	"Eyes on the Prize."	18:47
Abbyss	"Eyes on the Prize."	18:47
	When I realized that was the-	18:48
	I knew about the dogs and the whole, but it's like overseas,	18:50
	you just get an inkling. But I did not know exactly	18:52
	how much devastation took place. But we were aware,	18:56
	but we definitely were aware of the accolades	18:59
	of Martin Luther King, you know.	19:01
Hebert	Did your father or your parents ever talk	19:04
	about any other national leaders when you were growing up,	19:05
	like Thurgood Marshall?	19:08
Abbyss	A hero to my, a hero that my pop,	19:10
	my family talked about was Joe Louis.	19:13
Hebert	Joe Louis?	19:15
Abbyss	Joe Louis. 'Cause that was a radio type,	19:16
	even though he wasn't into, it was like, it was like	19:18
	that was the person you elevated.	19:21
	And probably Adam Clayton Powell.	19:22
	Okay. Let me- Want to know a magazine	19:24
	that we always had in our home? Ebony.	19:26
	That was the line that- that was a Black-	19:30
	The Ebony publication has been in our house all our life.	19:33
	Ebony, not Jet, now. But I subscribe to Jet now.	19:37
	But Ebony has been one that my family has,	19:40
	Mother has always, remember, Mother was an avid reader.	19:43
Hebert	Did she also subscribe to newspapers	19:46
	like the Journal and Guide?	19:48
Abbyss	Absolutely. Well, she didn't subscribe then.	19:49
	You had a person who brought it. So they,	19:52
	they bought that weekly. That was the one paper.	19:54
	And that was the thing where I said, Mother is a historian,	19:57
	'cause anything worth keeping, she would always cut out	20:00
	those pictures and save them. And that's what she has now.	20:03
	She has pictures that came from that Journal and Guide.	20:06
	when there were no, see, there was a time when Black people	20:08
	were not in a white paper.	20:11
Hebert	Right.	20:12
Abbyss	And there were not the kind of killings	20:13
	you had now, so you didn't even make the paper	20:14
	for doing something bad.	20:16
Hebert	So she would clip.	20:19
Abbyss	She clipped, she kept a historical line	20:20
	of things, you know, that happened.	20:24
Hebert	When did you come back here?	20:27
Abbyss	I came back home in '66.	20:28
	That's when my marriage broke.	20:32
	Because when I came back home,	20:34
	when his duty tour brought him, we were in Japan	20:35
	from '62 until '66. And when he came back,	20:39
	he was, he came back to Texas. My daughter was born in,	20:43
	I have a daughter, 29, she's born in Austin, Texas,	20:45
	but we lived, actually lived in Waco.	20:48
	And I'm trying to remember, which was first, after we came,	20:51
	she was born in Austin. We must have moved to Waco.	20:53
	But when I, when I was in Texas, that's when my marriage,	20:57
	when I finally came back home.	21:00
Hebert	And you moved back to Norfolk.	21:01
Abbyss	I moved back to Norfolk with my parents.	21:03
	They had a very large house by that time.	21:04
Hebert	Did they own their house?	21:07
Abbyss	They owned their home.	21:08
Hebert	And you started teaching in-?	21:10
Abbyss	I got a, okay, I, this is sort of really funny.	21:12
	I came home in October, and I went to the bank,	21:15
	and I saw a teacher who is dead now,	21:20
	but Ms. Lavenia Skinner. And she said, she called me Jones.	21:23
	She said, "What you doing? You teaching?"	21:26
	But she didn't even know, you know,	21:27
	like I was home for that particular reason.	21:29
	And I just mentioned I was home and her brother-in-law,	21:31
	Mr. William H. White, was a principal,	21:34
	and their teacher had died.	21:37
	A teacher had died in his school. I got a job on the spot,	21:38
	just like that. I started teaching in November of '66.	21:41
Hebert	And what was the name-?	21:43
Abbyss	Southeastern Elementary School.	21:45
Hebert	And were the schools still segregated?	21:47
Abbyss	Yes. That's when schools were segregated,	21:49
	schools were still segregated.	21:51
Hebert	Was there any fear among teachers	21:52
	about the schools desegregating, about losing jobs	21:54
	and things like that?	21:57
Abbyss	If there were, I was not aware of it	21:59
	by just coming back, but the one thing,	22:01
	the apprehension that I noted was when I did move,	22:04
	when Blacks were put in,	22:09
	and I'm going to use the word "put",	22:11
	when Blacks were sent to white schools,	22:12
	that's when I noted apprehension.	22:14
Hebert	Among the teachers.	22:17
Abbyss	Among teachers.	22:18
Hebert	Was there, I don't know, was there a fear	22:20
	that they didn't measure up?	22:22
-	That was, that fear and maybe possibly unfairness.	22:23
	So I said between the two,	22:28
	because some made it and some did not make it.	22:30
Hebert	Did some lose their jobs?	22:33
Abbyss	Through the evaluation system.	22:35
	Once they went to white schools,	22:38
	through demotions, through illness.	22:41
Hebert	Did they desegregate the teachers first	22:45
	and then the students, or was it-?	22:48
Abbyss	I remember a boy named Mickey (indistinct)	22:50
	who was my next door neighbor.	22:52
	He rode with me when I went to Southeastern,	22:53
	and I got a car about that time,	22:58
	and I would drop him off at Great Bridge High School.	23:00
	And that's when I know it was like, that was like token.	23:04
	You know, one. I can't remember if you could go	23:08
	to the school that you wanted to,	23:11
	if you could provide your transportation,	23:12
	because that seems like it was before the designated times	23:14
	when people, you know, actually had to go to the school	23:18
	in a certain district. So when I went to Great Bridge,	23:20
	I had one boy named Champ, George Grandy,	23:24
	and a girl named Sugar.	23:29
	I'm trying to think of her real name,	23:31
	but her parents own an upholstery place in Oak Grove.	23:33
	And it'll come to me in a minute, what's her name?	23:39
	Mitchell, but we call her Sugar.	23:40
	I had one, that's when you had a room	23:43
	full of white children.	23:45
	And they gave me over age white children,	23:47
	one retarded girl who was 16. I taught her how to sew.	23:50
	And I think that's a kickoff from this,	23:53
	but at that time they did not expect me to make it.	23:56
	And I don't mind saying that for the record.	23:58
	And I didn't know it for a fact,	24:00
	but anytime you put all the most,	24:01
	the children threatened to beat me.	24:03
	And Sugar and George took up for me,	24:05
	and this is something I remember, this was in '68 or '69,	24:07
	but I remember to this day and they know,	24:11
	and I was a Lipscomb, and they say Mrs. Lipscomb,	24:13
	and I was real timid. I didn't talk like I do now.	24:15
	And I was not the independent type.	24:19
	I was more of a passive type, but I learned how, you know,	24:21
	through the broken marriage and through desegregation,	24:25
	I really grew up. And I had a boy named Mackie (indistinct)	24:28
	and his people were rednecks.	24:33
	And they, they just almost like sat watching	24:36
	to see what you were going to do.	24:41
	And do you know, I don't know how I did it,	24:43
	but (indistinct name) and I can't think of his-	24:45
	The Rawlins, Rawlins boy.	24:48
	They were all little bosom white friends.	24:50
	And they were just going to threaten me,	24:52
	made me feel intimidated and everything.	24:54
	They became some of my best friends,	24:56
	and I have in my school now something made in-	24:58
	I can't remember, I want to say '74,	25:01
	but I don't want to give the wrong date,	25:03
	but he made me a little red thing that you could,	25:05
	paper thing, I keep it every single year I carry,	25:08
	I carried it from Great Bridge.	25:11
	I taught at Great Bridge Elementary, 14 years.	25:12
	I taught it, had it at Southeastern.	25:14
	And I have it with me at B.M. Williams.	25:17
	It's something I would never get rid of.	25:18
	It's just a symbol of that boy ended up	25:20
	being one of the best things I could have had	25:24
	before the year was over.	25:25
Hebert	What grade were you teaching at Great Bridge?	25:27
Abbyss	I started 4th and okay, want to know	25:29
	something real important about that?	25:32
	That's when I taught in 4th grade,	25:34
	you taught Virginia history.	25:35
	I remember, I can't say it was while I was doing it or not,	25:37
	but the Virginia history book had nothing about Blacks.	25:41
	It had a little insert about Booker T. Washington	25:43
	and maybe something about George Washington Carver.	25:48
	And somehow or another, there came some kind	25:50
	of little, a problem, and for a while they discontinued	25:52
	teaching Virginia history.	25:55
	And that's what you teach in 4th grade.	25:58
	Now they have since upgraded the history books,	26:00
	but I don't know about the Chesapeake part of it.	26:04
	But I do know when I taught the Virginia history,	26:06
	there was no real mention of anything about Blacks.	26:10
Hebert	So there was no mention of King or anything?	26:14
Abbyss	Nothing. And there were actually, like I said,	26:18
	they said a little something about Booker T. Washington,	26:20
	'cause somehow or another, he has something	26:23
	to do with Virginia. And they said something	26:26
	about George Washington Carver.	26:28
Hebert	But they never mentioned slavery or emancipation?	26:29
Abbyss	It was just a one-sided, a one-sided book.	26:32
	'Cause I often wish that I had, and I think I probably	26:36
	had one back here, stuck in the house somewhere,	26:39
	'cause it was so such an obsolete book.	26:40
Hebert	Now how did these families like the	26:44
	Rawlins family and the (indistinct) family treat you?	26:46
Abbyss	They were real mean and tough,	26:48
	but they all won out. And I'm not saying this because of me,	26:51
	but for some reason I think I won the children's acceptance,	26:54
	and naturally the parents follow suit to a certain extent.	26:59
	But there was, I'll never forget.	27:02
	And I won't even call this particular name,	27:03
	but that was an attorney, and he had a daughter,	27:05
	and this person was in a position to do this,	27:08
	that he, they had their child taken out of my class.	27:11
	And this is a prominent Chesapeake attorney.	27:13
	'Cause his daughter teaches in the system now.	27:16
	And I was in, in a class with her.	27:18
	I know she would never know.	27:20
	I would still remember who she was. If you turn it off.	27:21
	[INTERRUPTION]	27:23
	Or there was a section, you were asking	27:24
	about this neighborhood, there was a section in Chesapeake	27:27
	called Fernwood Farms, nothing but prominent Blacks,	27:31
	principals. By this time, you know, there were more of them.	27:33
	I don't exactly know where they came from,	27:36
	but this whole stretch was nothing but professional Blacks.	27:38
	That first year that I was at Great Bridge or either the	27:43
	second, if not the first, no, not, not the first,	27:46
	but the first is when they just gave me two.	27:49
	That next year they gave me a lot of these Black children.	27:51
	But because they were Black, they didn't know	27:54
	the prominence of their parents. Later on, I didn't get the-	27:55
	I had all those Black children,	27:59
	but they came from Fernwood Farms.	28:00
	But all of the parents were the professional folk.	28:01
	And by this time they were more than teachers.	28:03
	The day, one day there was a, a college professor,	28:05
	you know. Later when the white administrators realized-	28:08
	They didn't say all of this,	28:12
	but you can put two and two together.	28:13
	When they realized that these were professional folk,	28:14
	they gave those children who lived in Fernwood Farms	28:17
	to the white teachers. So after that a few years,	28:19
	I didn't get them.	28:21
Hebert	So there-	28:23
Abbyss	Now I know that for a fact.	28:24
Hebert	There was always a sense, or you sensed	28:26
	that they thought that you weren't as good as the others?	28:27
Abbyss	Right. Right. It's not only that.	28:28
	It's almost like- it's hard to explain it	28:31
	because I don't think they thought that.	28:34
	Because I'm going to tell you this. And I can't be,	28:36
	I guess I really sound vain. In order for me	28:41
	to get into a White school, they knew I had to be better.	28:43
	Now, I'm saying it for them. They knew.	28:47
	But it was still that "you are not good enough	28:50
	to teach my child." I could not have gotten into	28:52
	a white school if they did not feel.	28:55
	They didn't do it only because of the law.	28:58
	What they did, they hand picked the teachers that,	29:00
	because I remember Dr. Mary-	29:03
	I won't call her name, she was one of the teachers	29:07
	that when she went on to get her Ph.D.	29:09
	and she became a supervisor.	29:10
	Dr. Shirley, she was just a regular teacher at first.	29:12
	I'm just naming these. They knew what they were doing.	29:15
	I never chose to get beyond a Master's.	29:18
	I'm going to tell you exactly why. I would've gone on	29:21
	with the way my mama did. And when my aunt was	29:23
	a regional supervisor in Chatham, Virginia,	29:25
	and she was a principal,	29:28
	I wanted always to be a principal too.	29:29
	But with desegregation, there were limitations of promotion.	29:31
	So the biggest thing I, I got my Master's	29:38
	when it wasn't popular to have a Master's,	29:40
	I got my Master's in 1970.	29:41
	And at that time when I got my Master's,	29:43
	it was put in the paper.	29:47
	(microphone crackles)	29:50
	A long story, talking about perseverance.	29:51
	After I came home, if I got it in '70,	29:54
	I remember I was taking all these courses,	29:57
	and the same Ms. Skinner who asked, who got me this job.	29:58
	She called me Lipscomb. Then she just said, "Lipscomb,	30:02
	you take all the-"	30:03
	I have always been studious.	30:05
	I always went to school.	30:06
	And part of this stem from that Coppin experience,	30:08
	I would always take courses. I remember one time	30:11
	Mrs. White sent me to George Washington University	30:13
	to take linguistics. And at that time	30:16
	you could take courses. You didn't have to pay, you know,	30:18
	and it was during that Kennedy time	30:20
	when they had these funds. I took a course in linguistics,	30:23
	and I learned a lot about why people speak the way they do.	30:26
	This was at George Washington University.	30:28
	So, you know, if I'm on the, taking the course there	30:31
	and fitting in, I must be doing something.	30:34
	So when,	30:36
	the day he had put the notice on the bulletin board-	30:36
	and that was before I went to Great Bridge.	30:39
	But I learned so much about English	30:41
	and the language and how it progressed,	30:45
	like within the community and within the culture.	30:48
	Not that I know everything.	30:50
	But that was one of the things that made me feel okay	30:51
	when I went to Great Bridge, because nobody could tell	30:54
	from my talk and the semantics and everything.	30:57
	Actually, I think I was a little bit more prepared	31:01
	than some of those white teachers. Because like I said,	31:03
	what happened was when I went to George Washington,	31:06
	his sister told, this principal's sister-in-law told me,	31:08
	she said, "Why don't you get a Master's?"	31:12
	I had a lot of hours in reading,	31:13
	and I would just take courses in a random fashion.	31:15
	She said, "What?"	31:18
	And I never, I always thought a Master's was a little much,	31:19
	even though I had planned to do it.	31:22
	But it wasn't at that time. My daughter was a little girl.	31:23
	If she was born in '66, that mean she was a baby.	31:26
	I would play at the church where I played,	31:29
	which was a small church.	31:32
	Mother kept my baby during the weekend.	31:34
	I only went on Saturdays, and I lived with my mother.	31:36
	But in the summer I went for the whole, you know,	31:39
	nine weeks. My mother kept my baby and the people on campus,	31:41
	you talking about no social life.	31:44
	And it was done like this on purpose.	31:46
	I would take her clean clothes and iron them in the dorm	31:48
	while everybody just was doing their partying.	31:51
	I made my averages.	31:53
	I finished, got my 39 hours in the time allotted	31:56
	and got my Master's at Virginia State with a young child.	31:59
	And at that time I was, I was not married,	32:01
	'cause I didn't re-marry until she was eight.	32:03
Hebert	So, so you, you moved out to Petersburg	32:06
	for a while.	32:08
Abbyss	Only in the summer, but my mother kept my child,	32:09
	my mother and dad, my daddy was living there.	32:11
	My daddy died 10 years ago in '85.	32:13
Hebert	And, and you would, you would come back	32:15
	on weekends to be with your daughter.	32:17
Abbyss	Right. And I would go to church,	32:18
	and I took her to the park. You talking about nurturing?	32:20
	I left my baby's daddy when she was,	32:22
	I think she was five or six months old.	32:26
	She was born in June. I came home in October.	32:27
	So she has been, I have been her sole parent all her life.	32:29
Hebert	You were mentioning before how there was	32:35
	reluctance for you to get, or a reluctance to	32:38
	go higher than the Master's.	32:41
Abbyss	Oh yeah. All right. Okay. Before remember	32:42
	I kept telling you how I was thriving, just like	32:45
	when I got my Master's. My next step would have been,	32:47
	go on and get your doctorate, you know,	32:50
	just keep on because I was always a studious person.	32:51
	Well once I got, okay, this is the one thing I learned.	32:54
	Okay, in the black school system, I could see people	32:56
	being promoted. I can't remember if it was a woman,	33:00
	but there were more male principals.	33:02
	But as soon as I got in the white school,	33:05
	so this is the one thing I noticed.	33:08
	This is what I really noticed.	33:10
	Only the strong teachers survive.	33:12
	If the teacher wasn't smart or a go-getter,	33:15
	And this is why I was saying,	33:17
	I sort of learned through a broken marriage	33:18
	and through desegregation, how to survive.	33:21
	That first class they gave me,	33:23
	I knew something was wrong,	33:25
	but I still say, I've been naive about a lot of things.	33:26
	I did not realize at that time what they had done,	33:29
	as much as I was determined to make it.	33:33
	I had this girl, a white, retarded girl,	33:35
	16 years old in my class. I can't remember my class load,	33:37
	but I remember I had all kinds of problems.	33:41
	And I was always the kind, I will make it work at night.	33:44
	Some people tell me that. They said, well,	33:48
	you are a controlling person.	33:49
	Well, I sort of learned how to do that.	33:51
	So I survived, people sit in on me,	33:53
	I survived, observation. And that was why, I mean,	33:56
	at that time, that was when, if they observed you,	34:00
	they didn't do these conniving things as much as I have seen	34:03
	them do it later years. They were fair as far as I can see,	34:05
	but they were just so strict. For example,	34:09
	if a person came in, they would say, well, now,	34:10
	it made me no nevermind because I knew	34:12
	I was going to do my job anyway.	34:14
	And I always had that tenacity, no matter if they came in,	34:15
	I always did all my homework. I did everything	34:19
	that would've been required, but I always did more.	34:23
	Like if I was supposed to have a lesson and so on,	34:25
	and so I would over-teach, over-plan, over-everything.	34:28
	And I always did that. So down the line,	34:32
	I ended up with more Black children coming in,	34:35
	but I remember my children would come	34:39
	from certain neighborhoods. I would get all the Blacks,	34:40
	not from Fernwood Farms, but from Bells Mill,	34:44
	and what later became Harbour North.	34:46
	And they were called the less affluent neighborhoods.	34:48
	And even to this day at B.M. Williams, I get more children	34:52
	from an area called Crestwood with only one-parent homes	34:56
	than I do from Riverwalk, which is the more affluent.	35:00
	And I know. Okay, this year my class had, I had 20 children.	35:02
	I had 14 Blacks and that's a high percentage.	35:07
	If the other teachers have 7, 8, and 9,	35:11
	and some didn't have that many, but I would just say	35:14
	that average was not 14 Blacks.	35:16
	Otherwise it would not work on 11th first grades. So.	35:18
Hebert	Is there an attempt or some kind of attempt like,	35:22
	or was there an attempt by the school board to give Black	35:26
	teachers more Black students than white students?	35:27
Abbyss	Not for the right reason. At first,	35:30
	it was just the opposite because they weren't even there.	35:32
	You had to, at that time,	35:35
	that's when the HEW, the rules were,	35:36
	you better have some Blacks in that room. I got one Black,	35:39
	like one girl, one boy, that first year,	35:42
	then maybe later you might have two or three.	35:45
	Well, now it's gone complete reverse.	35:47
	But then my, it's also because of the community.	35:50
	I think our school possibly has a half and half Black	35:52
	population. But before that, it was by law.	35:55
	You knew because you had to sign that little statement.	35:59
	And even now I think we do it,	36:03
	but I don't think it's as mandated as it was early on,	36:04
	Early on, they really took a head count of how many you had,	36:08
	but before it was like a token situation,	36:11
	because you didn't have the Blacks in the first place.	36:14
	Now, I don't know if it was how	36:15
	they divided their lines. I can't remember how,	36:17
	when the first year that I remember being in a desegregated	36:20
	was either '68, early on, when I told you, when they had	36:24
	to desegregate with teachers, it had to be desegregated.	36:27
	So they put a Black teacher in every grade level.	36:30
	So you had a school with X number of white teachers	36:33
	and one Black on their grade level.	36:37
	So that's the way it was at first.	36:39
Hebert	How did the children react	36:41
	to one another in the first-?	36:43
Abbyss	Children are innocent. Children are honest, also.	36:44
	Children who were more affluent-this is my opinion now,	36:47
	I'm giving you my opinion-appear to be more programmed,	36:51
	to be anti-you and stand up to you.	36:55
	But that's also when all children were a little more polite.	36:58
	But the children who came from what I would call	37:01
	the section of the white community	37:04
	where even their affluent people	37:06
	sort of looked down on them,	37:08
	they were my better students. Meaning they were less-	37:09
	they were more understanding.	37:12
	But they all had what I call that,	37:14
	I would just say, "redneck mentality,"	37:16
	for lack of knowing how to describe it better.	37:18
	But I had more problem from so-called affluent folk,	37:21
	like a doctor's child, or like I mentioned,	37:23
	that attorney person. See, they would put the children	37:26
	in your room. And I guess they took chances	37:28
	on who would stay, who, but every year at that point,	37:31
	I've always had somebody who would leave.	37:33
	And sometimes they would try to do it in a polite, nice way.	37:35
	But I remember I had, I'll never forget this.	37:37
	A man came, and he was a city planner, Mr. Vawker.	37:40
	And he had a very smart daughter, and they put that girl	37:43
	in my room and, and I have always been a vocal person.	37:47
	And I told him, I said, "Your daughter is too high	37:50
	to be in my room." And I remember	37:53
	my principal didn't like it. That's how, when I said,	37:54
	I noticed later that they were doing conniving things.	37:56
	But I could also teach a smart person also.	37:59
Hebert	But-	38:01
Abbyss	But I let them know. And what happened,	38:02
	it was something they said to the principal,	38:04
	but they still always respected my opinion.	38:06
	I just tell them your daughter is too smart to be with this	38:08
	group. And I have still had a situation like that,	38:11
	where they were put an extremely smart child,	38:13
	and they knew everybody. But the man by being,	38:16
	not knowing the Great Bridge mentality,	38:19
	'cause those Great Bridge folks sort of stood together,	38:21
	and they knew, and I know they knew,	38:24
	but he was new to the city.	38:26
	And for some reason they put his daughter in a room,	38:28
	which by that time I realized she should,	38:30
	even the way they group, 'cause they would group	38:33
	according to, you know, certain level.	38:35
	And I just told him, I said,	38:36
	"Your child should be in another situation." And if I,	38:38
	and they put her in another room.	38:40
Hebert	I need-	38:42

Mary Hebert	Let's see. Has that changed, though? Have they stopped being so conniving in how they arrange their [crosstalk 00:00:13]?	0:04
Mary Abbyss	It's more subtle. Because you can't prove it anymore. It's something you can't prove. For example, this is what I sense, but like I said, I can't prove anything. I think we had 11 first grades. I know certain teachers get what I call all of the better honed and smarter children, and they have fewer problems. When you have a lot of problems, and you know you have problems, that doesn't appear to be a mistake.	0:13
Mary Hebert	Did you ever have problems, back in the sixties, with your supervisors, or things like that? Were they always fair in the way they treated you?	0:45
Mary Abbyss	Okay, that's a real good question. I remember, when I had Mr. Johnson, I was never afraid, afraid. When, in later years, I used to sort of be afraid. Mr. Johnson was Black, Dr. Keever was Black. As far as I know, I got outstanding evaluations. And then I had another, I had a Ms. Fisher and she was White. I remember them being very fair. I'm trying to remember.	0:52
Mary Abbyss	Okay. When I went to South—Okay, even at Great Bridge, I think the biggest thing that got me in trouble was I have always been a pro-Afrocentric thinking person, even if I didn't exhibit. I was not the type who would wear a Malcolm X shirt and do those kind of things, or even appear radical, but I always never lost whatever it is about you that makes you know are Black.	1:17
Mary Abbyss	Okay. There are two kinds of Black folk in schools. There are those who don't want any White person to know what they think, or they don't show it. Well, I was one that if it came—For example, I remember the Black History Month. I always had enough, and I have to use the word nerve, to go ahead and make a Black History Bowl. I don't care who did and who didn't, they always knew I was going to have one. That's when it wasn't popular to do it. I always knew that, because that was just like the one time you did it. Well, then, see, I got a little battle down through the years. I was smart enough to know you put these pictures of Blacks throughout the school year, that can get you in trouble.	1:40
Mary Abbyss	So to answer you in a roundabout way, I got in trouble more with being the kind of person I was than what I actually did. So that's why I say it was not done in a fair way.	2:15
Mary Hebert	Well, you mentioned you were always aware of your African heritage, your African American heritage. Did your parents teach you that or is it something that came later on?	2:28
Mary Abbyss	It's something that probably came more later on. Because I remember, going back at the time, I remember when I was not proud of any of that. I didn't see it as a sense of pride like I do now. Like if you notice my pictures and things that I have. Now, this is really recent, recent, but the attitude has been—That picture straight over there. See? And on the other side. And my decorations, all of this is very, very recent, like within this year. I have thought it, but I never did it.	2:36
Mary Abbyss	But I don't know what made me do that. And it just started in a gradual way. And I said, "Now, it's like I have no choice. That's the way to go." But I know that could be through my daughter.	3:03
Mary Hebert	But you always did that, [indistinct 00:03:15].	3:13
Mary Abbyss	But coming up, I was always a positive person. But I don't think I was the kind who would have leaned in this direction based on how I always thought White was better. So I'm just, to answer you, I would say years ago I never would've done it this way.	3:15
Mary Hebert	Do you think that whiter was always better, White was always better—	3:29
Mary Abbyss	When I was younger. Yeah.	3:33
Mary Hebert	—was something that was taught to you through the school system?	3:34
Mary Abbyss	It was taught through even in the Black community. So I'm just saying that didn't come from a White situation. It was like an understanding, unstated something you saw, you knew. For example, I remember certain ministers, no matter how dark they were, they were. And the more prominent they were, the lighter their wives were. And this was on an educated level, uneducated. And even in the professional life, any prominent Black man normally appeared to have a light wife. Now this is, like I said, it was a community thing. This wasn't just from a White perspective, this was just something that was done. But I think it stemmed from the way of life, that we thought White was better.	3:36
Mary Hebert	Were the images in magazines and things like that reinforcing that?	4:27
Mary Abbyss	Years ago, especially in Ebony. Okay. Okay, I'm going to tell you when I really realized that Black was nice. It was when James Brown came with this song, "I'm Black and I'm proud." And my daughter was a baby. And I remember people in my family thought that she was a little too dark. And it's almost like it was like an insult to me.	4:30
Mary Abbyss	Then right at that time, when she was a baby, I remember remembering that I was going to always treat her without straightening her hair, which I did. I didn't straighten her hair. She wore a little afro, she wore whatever. I didn't straighten her hair until she was a big girl. Because by that time, I had determined, and that was in the sixties, '66 and on, and that's when it was popular for darker skin folk to feel a sense of self-esteem.	5:01
Mary Abbyss	So that's how I really came to really understand an appreciation through that era. And I guess you would call that the later—	5:27
Mary Hebert	Civil Rights [indistinct 00:05:35].	5:34
Mary Abbyss	—Civil Rights time. That's when that became—	5:35
Mary Hebert	Black power.	5:38
Mary Abbyss	Right, Black power, the Afrocentric. Because I remember I had a afro, no, I had two afro wigs. Well three, I had a black one, a brown one, and a red one. And because I didn't have an afro per se, I wore this Afro wig. But it looked more curly, it wouldn't scare anybody. But yet, it was with the times. I wore an afro wig.	5:39
Mary Hebert	When you were growing up, did you ever feel like a second-class citizen because of the system of segregation?	5:57
Mary Abbyss	I'm almost certain we did. But like I say, we had so much love in our home. It's almost like you hear people saying, "I was poor and didn't know it." I really believe it was more of that we had the sense of you can become anything you want to be. At that time, I didn't know how high I could be, but I never felt inferior, in the complete sense, to a depressive state. But yet it was almost, you sense it from the unfairness of it. But it didn't hold us back. So we always had, like I said, my mama was a great cook. She always had some activity going on. I worked at Bible school all through the years.	6:02
Mary Abbyss	Going back to the James Brown situation, I was going to tell you something I did in college years. I know I did this. I used to always use a bleach cream called Nadinola to lighten my skin.	6:40
Mary Hebert	And you stopped doing that?	6:51
Mary Abbyss	I stopped doing that during the James Brown time. But prior to that, like this time of year, you wouldn't see me in the sun. I would bleach my arms and my face.	6:52
Mary Hebert	Would they sell that in magazines and groceries?	7:04
Mary Abbyss	It was in magazines and at Woolsworth. That's one reason why you had to go to the store on Saturday, to make sure you had that. You went to Norfolk to buy that.	7:07
Mary Hebert	You weren't here when a lot of the sit-ins and things like that were happening.	7:16
Mary Abbyss	I'm trying to think where, but I was aware of it. So maybe some of that came from the Ebony, because I knew about the one in Greensburg, North Carolina. I was aware of that. So I can't remember where I was. But that was during my college years in Maryland. Like I said, it wasn't as pronounced as, I believe, as it might have been in Virginia. I think Virginia would've been more vocal.	7:21
Mary Hebert	Now, while you were away in Japan with your husband, your first husband, you would hear about, say, what was happening Birmingham and [indistinct 00:07:53]?	7:45
Mary Abbyss	Yes, we we heard of bombings. Like when that church was bombed, I can't remember the year, I knew about that. I really knew about that.	7:53
Mary Hebert	Where the little girls were killed?	8:01
Mary Abbyss	And the little girls. We knew about. So I think a lot of that had to be in Ebony. Because even overseas, if I'm not mistaken, I think I must have been able to get Ebony, because I don't remember ever not knowing certain things.	8:02
Mary Hebert	I'm going back a little bit. What were some of the gathering places in your community when you were growing up? Were there places where people gathered to talk or—	8:14
Mary Abbyss	Church.	8:22
Mary Hebert	Church.	8:22
Mary Abbyss	But to talk as, what level of talking do you mean?	8:23
Mary Hebert	Just like on a Saturday afternoon, where did people gather?	8:27
Mary Abbyss	In front of a store also. But I would say in churches. And we weren't in this part, but anywhere they had a church. And they had, what they call in Atlanta Avenue, a beer garden. But that would be nothing but a tavern now, but we didn't participate in that. But I will say community people sort of gathered around the outside of a store called Mr. Jerry's Store.	8:30
Mary Hebert	Mr. Jerry's?	8:54
Mary Abbyss	Mr. Jerry's. Jerry Wilson.	8:55
Mary Hebert	Did you ever get to go to the movie theaters?	9:00
Mary Abbyss	I didn't go to the movie until I was grown. I was grown. As a child, I was never allowed.	9:06
Mary Hebert	What about healthcare in this area? Was there an African American doctor or African American dentist?	9:07
Mary Abbyss	Okay. There was a Dr. Paulson, but he was in Norfolk. And there were some doctors in Berkeley. But remember, this was more of a rural type neighborhood. It wasn't country, country, but it was just a little step from country, country. But it was like everybody had individual houses, and it was paths and unpaid roads. Well, Berkeley was a city. So that was, like I said, a Dr. Webb's drugstore. And we went to a White doctor, believe it or not. Dr. Jennings, J-E-N-N-I-N-G-S.	9:15
Mary Hebert	Would you ever go to Webb's drugstore?	9:49
Mary Abbyss	I don't remember going. Because your mother and parents used any remedy that they could use. Mother used home remedies and things. It had to be, I don't even remember ever going to a hospital in my life until I had my daughter. But I do remember I had to go to, I'm going to say Doctor Jennings, for a physical to get into Norfolk State. But other than that, I remember one time I cut my foot and that was when doctors came to the houses. Your doctor came here. But there was not that much illness, so we did not have medical situations.	9:51
Mary Hebert	So your mother knew how to treat things at the house?	10:23
Mary Abbyss	Whatever mother group. Something called Jemison weed, J-E-M-I-S-O-N. Jemison weed. Even to this day. And she had something called poke, P-O-K-E, root. Mother had a plant for everything. [indistinct 00:10:39] tea, horehound tea. She could go out in the woods or the yard and find it and she'd boil it. Caster oil was a medicine. If you had a cold, ran everything out. Horehound tea for colds. Certain kind of mints, parsnip for stomach ache.	10:25
Mary Hebert	Did she tell you where she learned how to make all of this?	10:56
Mary Abbyss	I'm going to attribute that to her parents. Or either her grandparents, but she didn't say. But at that time they were called home remedies.	11:00
Mary Hebert	And that's what—	11:12
Mary Abbyss	That's what kept her—You could believe we didn't have any doctor bills, and you definitely didn't have health insurance.	11:12
Mary Hebert	Is there anything else you'd like to add to this? I'm pretty much through with the questions.	11:18
Mary Abbyss	I can't think of anything that you didn't touch. I was trying to think, from the article, of what might be inclusive.	11:21
Mary Hebert	Because they talked about, in that article, riding the buses and things like that.	11:30
Mary Abbyss	Oh, I had to ride a bus. I had to walk all the way to South Norfolk, which is a great distance by today's standards, to go to Norfolk State. And at one point, I think the New Light bus, which I mentioned, was maybe about three blocks, which would be up on Atlantic Avenue. But the thing was, you had to get on it at a certain time. So that meant you stayed in school all day. Or you synchronized your times. You had to get on very, very early to get to school. And you had to get a certain bus, not to be too late to miss whatever was the last bus.	11:35
Mary Hebert	Did you prefer riding the New Light bus?	12:04
Mary Abbyss	That was my only choice. Oh. That was a man named Mr. Reddy. He worked at the Chevrolet place. He had a car where my dad didn't have a car. We paid him $5, I'm going to just say a week, to ride. It was almost like it wasn't easy to do what you did. Two other girls from this neighborhood started when that started, but they did not finish. And we all would hitch, what we called catch a ride, we paid him or something.	12:06
Mary Hebert	Was it unusual for people in this neighborhood to go to Norfolk State? To go to college?	12:31
Mary Abbyss	Okay. Well, it depends on how you look at it. We had only 20. Now, a person told me we had 19 in our class. Coca. See, I told him I thought we had 25 to graduate. Well, he saw another number. I know the class was very small. When you consider how few people we had, the percentage who had the opportunity. Like I say, the way that I went to school was the way I told you, with that hundred dollars. Had I not had that, I probably wouldn't have gone to school.	12:38
Mary Abbyss	Now, I'm sure maybe there would have been another option because maybe my mother would've known that maybe she could go through the school. But it was the money that was the base that let us know I could go. There were not that many people, at that time, in that position, to send their children. Because when I say working class, meant a lot of people worked in fields, and most of the ladies did they's work. They didn't have these good paying jobs like people—So people just survived with their family. It was like college was not an option for most folk.	13:02
Mary Hebert	That's what I was asking.	13:34
Mary Abbyss	It was not an option. Believe me. Even, like I said, the two girls that started when I did, they used to work at the beach, but they ended up getting married before they finished. But one did go back and finish college in later years.	13:35
Mary Hebert	I have another question about the New Light bus. Was that just in this neighborhood? Or—	13:47
Mary Abbyss	As far as I know. It was like a bus that just sort of trailed, because it wasn't even that many roads. It started way down in New Light and it had a designated route. So it was really just for this area. It was the only way people in this area could get where they going to get without going all the way to South Norfolk.	13:54
Mary Hebert	So there weren't any city trolleys?	14:08
Mary Abbyss	Oh no, not at all out here. No trolleys.	14:10
Mary Hebert	Oh, okay.	14:12
Mary Abbyss	No city transportation.	14:13
Mary Hebert	Did you feel better about riding the New Light bus, say, than the trolleys where you had to sit in the back?	14:14
Mary Abbyss	On the New Light, it was crowded for a different reason. It was all Black. It was just crowded because it was crowded. So, in South Norfolk, I'm trying to remember, by the time I was on college level, where people were more vocal, I'm sure we had that anger. But when we were real young, I don't remember the anger as much as people now have anger about things.	14:20
Mary Hebert	But you did want to ride in the front of the bus when they—	14:42
Mary Abbyss	Absolutely. I remember. So that's why I say it must have been something there, because I can remember this. And I remember what my daddy said. He was afraid that we were so brave. And even though it was the law. So that shows me the attitude that I had as a young person. Because one thing in college, I think we learned enough about history of civics, of what, to know what your rights were. So it was one of those things. And he was afraid. But that was the other thing to let me know that we did communicate at home, because we respected my daddy's opinions and all.	14:46
Mary Hebert	Did you ever not go to stores because they didn't serve you? You couldn't [indistinct 00:15:20]-	15:15
Mary Abbyss	I'm almost positive. And that could have been two reasons too. One could have been because we didn't have enough money. Like Angel Brown was real expensive and Schwartz was very—But there were stores where I know we weren't welcome. So I don't know it was because of the lack of the income or if it were both. But I know there were stores that you just didn't go in. But I'm not positive to what the reason, because there was also, what you would call sort of private, they weren't private, but they were more specialized stores on Freemason Street right across from Grande. Well, I know we never went in those. Later years, when I could afford to go, I just still knew too expensive.	15:20
Mary Hebert	But, at that point, you never chose not to go to a store because they wouldn't allow you to—	15:59
Mary Abbyss	My mama might. But she would probably know the answer better than I do.	16:04
Mary Hebert	Okay. Well, that's about all the questions I have for you, so I'll shut this off. Tell me about math and [indistinct 00:16:14].	16:07
Mary Abbyss	Okay, I'm telling you that I graduated from high school when electives were not as mandated as they are today. I took Algebra 1 and I never remember taking Algebra 2 to graduate. But I remember Ms. Shirley S. Brown taught one of my electives. Shirley, Ms. Shirley Brown. One of my electives was shorthand, one was typing. I was in the chorus, I was in the band. I don't remember being in the drama club per se, but I say I have a question mark about that. But I know I took, journalism was one of my classes, and I was the news reporter for the Journaling Guide and wrote a weekly article.	16:14
Mary Hebert	So you wrote a weekly article about Carver High?	17:00
Mary Abbyss	About Carver High, the Carver High News.	17:02
Mary Hebert	Was there a school newspaper or anything?	17:05
Mary Abbyss	Yeah, that was a school—One time, I don't want to say I was an editor-in-chief, I just don't want to say that. But I had some role, because Mr. Joseph C. Webb was a history and journalism teacher, and I had a major role with that school newspaper. But it wasn't published the way we are, it was on the blue and white [indistinct 00:17:30] graph type paper.	17:07
Mary Hebert	And y'all would talk about what was going on at school?	17:30
Mary Abbyss	The games. You had a little byline. Popular things that were going on, the football games and activities. And I can't remember if it was weekly or monthly, but I wrote weekly for the Journaling Guide.	17:32
Mary Hebert	Were you paid for that?	17:46
Mary Abbyss	Oh no, no, no. That was just something we did.	17:47
Mary Hebert	And you'd write about what was going on in the school?	17:52
Mary Abbyss	School, right. And that was printed, just like my picture is right here. It was printed in this particular paper.	17:53
Mary Hebert	Did your mother—	18:02
Mary Abbyss	Now, mother has clippings of that. And if I think hard, I can find one of mine. I don't know if you would ever need one, but I should have one of those somewhere in the scrapbook. Okay.	18:03

Item Info

Title:

Mary Abbyss interview recording, 1995 July 17

Date:

July 17, 1995

Creator:

Abbyss, Mary Jones

Contributor:

Hebert, Mary

Description:

Name: Mary Jones Abbyss; Date of birth: 1936-03-18; Place of birth: Winston-Salem, NC; Occupation(s): educator; school teacher; produce worker; Residence: Chesapeake, VA
Informant ID: 952; Interviewed by: Mary Hebert.

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Behind the Veil

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Behind the Veil: Documenting African American Life in the Jim Crow South interviews, photographs, and project records, circa 1864-2011, bulk 1990-2004

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The David M. Rubenstein Rare Book and Manuscript Library acquired the Records of the Behind the Veil Oral History Project from the Duke University Center for Documentary Studies in 1997, 1998, 2000, and 2002.

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Copyright for content created by the Behind the Veil project is held by Duke University and made available to the public using a Creative Commons Attribution / Non-commercial (CC-BY-NC) license.

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Mary Abbyss interview recording, 1995 July 17

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1. Mary Abbyss administrative file, 1995

John Hope Franklin Research Center

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Mary Abbyss interview recording, 1995 July 17

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