Harvey Johnson interview recording, 1995 August 04

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Blair Murphy	Okay.	0:00
Harvey N. Johnson, Jr.	My name is Harvey N. Johnson, Jr. I was born in Richmond, Virginia, November the 2nd, 1915.	0:05
Blair Murphy	Could you tell me a little bit about Richmond when you were growing up, what it was like?	0:13
Harvey N. Johnson, Jr.	Well, I lived in a section of Richmond where I was born in my grandfather's house, called Fulton. It was in the lower section, the valley of the city of Richmond. My grandfather was a contractor there, and it was a tight-knit community, almost all Black. My mother was from Richmond also, but she was from the Church Hill section. My father was from Fulton. So, he went up the Hill and found this girl, and brought her back down, and that was my mother. I had a sister who was 14 months older than I, and there were only two of us. She was my sister, and of course I was the brother.	0:19
Harvey N. Johnson, Jr.	My father, who followed my grandfather into the construction business, went to school in Richmond in Virginia Union University, decided he wanted to be an architect. So, he studied architecture at Virginia Union first and then at Carnegie Tech in Pittsburgh. By this time, World War I had happened. My father didn't have to go to the war because of having two children and having a skill that the government could use. And so, he was sent to Washington, Department of Navy, to work in the Navy Department in terms of design and construction as a draftsman. If this is about segregation, my part begins at this point, because I had no knowledge of what segregation was about while I was small.	1:07
Blair Murphy	Okay. You said there were some Whites in your community?	2:07
Harvey N. Johnson, Jr.	Yes, there were some Whites. There was a section. There were some White people who were living within the community. But Fulton had two parts to it, a Black part and a White part to it. And so, that's what I meant by White. The Whites lived generally in the area where the businesses were.	2:10
Harvey N. Johnson, Jr.	As I said, I had no real vision of segregation, because I never came in contact with many Whites when I was very, very small. But when my father was sent to Washington, while we remained in Richmond, my mother and my sister and I lived over in our grandfather's house. When he reported for duty at the Department of the Navy in Washington, he was rejected immediately without any examination by virtue of the fact that they thought—They did not know he was Black, and there were no Blacks in the drafting department. So they sent him, not back home, but they sent him to Newport News, Virginia to design warehouses for the Navy. Those warehouses are still there, by the way, on Jefferson Avenue. And from there to the Norfolk Naval Shipyard in Portsmouth, Virginia as a draftsman. He remained there until the war ended and then opened his architectural office in Norfolk, Virginia.	2:26
Blair Murphy	So, they never knew he was Black?	3:44
Harvey N. Johnson, Jr.	They knew he was Black when he got to Washington, but rather than to deny him anything, because the war effort was so much in need of his skills, that they gave him other duties. They gave him an entire assignment all by himself, to design one-story warehouses. Now, when you design one, you don't need to design any others, but he was there for that purpose until when that assignment was completed, they sent him to the Norfolk Naval Shipyard in Portsmouth to do design. When the war ended, he opened his architectural office in Norfolk, Virginia. Now, that's important to me and this discussion because it was at that point that he brought the family to Norfolk, my mother and my sister, and I.	3:47
Blair Murphy	How old were you?	4:40
Harvey N. Johnson, Jr.	Ooh. I was four.	4:40
Blair Murphy	Four. [indistinct 00:04:45]	4:43
Harvey N. Johnson, Jr.	We lived in a segregated section of Norfolk. My father's office was on Church Street. He designed the Attucks Theater building and his office building. But I could see the vestiges of segregation because Blacks and Whites were definitely separated. We did not go to school together. We did not associate. There was the Black business district in that time. There's the White business district. The Church Street area of Norfolk was the Black business district of Norfolk, just like Liberty Street, I think, was the Black business district of Berkley. [indistinct 00:05:31].	4:48
Blair Murphy	Yeah.	5:33
Harvey N. Johnson, Jr.	All right. My mother died in 1921, just before my birthday. That meant that my sister and I had to be moved back to Richmond to my grandfather's house. My father remained in Norfolk, so that I began school in Richmond in the Fulton section at what was called the Webster Davis Elementary School.	5:33
Harvey N. Johnson, Jr.	Uniquely, Richmond had three separate groups. There were White people, Black people, and Indians. They were separate from each other. There were three kinds of schools: Black schools, White schools, and Indian schools. I began school in the Webster Davis Elementary School down in Fulton, and a new school was built for us Black kids. I well remember how we marched from the wooden school to the brick school and the Indians marched, took over the school that we had left at that time. I remember that.	6:07
Blair Murphy	So, their schooling was considered like a grade below Black.	6:51
Harvey N. Johnson, Jr.	Below Blacks. They were considered as being below Blacks in terms of educational opportunities at that time. All right?	6:55
Harvey N. Johnson, Jr.	Now, I remained in Richmond with my sister and at my grandfather's house until my father remarried. When he remarried, then my sister and I came to Norfolk and I entered school there in John T. West Elementary School, strictly segregated. From there, from the County West Elementary School into Booker Washington Junior High School, and then to Booker Washington High School, graduated.	7:14
Harvey N. Johnson, Jr.	The only Whites that I came in contact with were casual friends that my father had for the work he was doing and [indistinct 00:07:54]. The only Whites that I saw in the school system were supervisors. The principals were always Black, but the supervisors who came periodically to inspect the activities and to see the quality of education, whatever, were White. So, they were the White people that I would see coming in. There were no White teachers in the schools that I attended.	7:44
Harvey N. Johnson, Jr.	From high school, I went to Virginia Union University. And that's where it was my first real experience with White people.	8:27
Blair Murphy	What year did you go to Virginia Union?	8:38
Harvey N. Johnson, Jr.	I went to Virginia Union in 1933. I finished in 1937. But Virginia Union University was a Baptist-supported school in Richmond. Much of its support came from the New England Baptist Association. A number of its teachers, including the president of Virginia Union University, were White. So, that I got an opportunity, then, to interact with White people. My first experience with White teachers was at the college level. And that was that experience.	8:40
Harvey N. Johnson, Jr.	Now, when I finished college—Oh, while I was in college, I would come home for the summer and my father at that time was pastoring the Ebenezer Baptist Church in Portsmouth, Virginia. He was still doing architectural work, but had limited his architectural work to church construction and redesigns because he just enjoyed it. So, we didn't have—Well, it was now during the Depression. In fact, I was in college during the Depression.	9:18
Harvey N. Johnson, Jr.	I don't know how this ties in with your report or with this [indistinct 00:10:04], but it was at that time that when a family had to make a decision, they had daughters and sons, as to who would go to college, was the girl that they would send to college and the boy would go to work or into the service [indistinct 00:10:25]. The idea was, and I had no problem with it, to protect the girls from bad experiences of segregation, give them the first opportunity. The boys would [indistinct 00:10:34]. For that reason, there were twice as many women at Virginia Union than there were men. And I can understand.	10:01
Blair Murphy	So, college was a way of protecting people against having to do harsher jobs?	10:45
Harvey N. Johnson, Jr.	Harsher jobs, manual labor. Any family that could afford, even at a tremendous sacrifice, if they had a boy and a girl coming out about the same time, the plan was send the girl to college, maybe she could become a teacher, and that would be better for her because the boy could pretty much make it on his own. Or at least he would have a better chance, and they would not want the girl exposed to the evils of the time, segregation. That was why, and even extends to now, why that there has continually been more women in the Black society going to college than men. It's just the reverse among Whites.	10:51
Harvey N. Johnson, Jr.	All right. Now, it's important for me to tell you this. I had not had the opportunity to get a feel for the problems of my people. I should feel ashamed about it. But it was just something that I was protected from that, so that every summer after college, or while in college, I would come home and meet all the friends and my friends. Then get the train, go to Philadelphia. My father's sister lived in Philadelphia with her husband, and her home was a summer mecca for me and for my other cousins.	11:31
Blair Murphy	What part of Philadelphia did she live in?	12:30
Harvey N. Johnson, Jr.	In North Philly on Cumberland, North Cumberland, Cumberland Avenue.	12:30
Blair Murphy	My father's from Philly.	12:30
Harvey N. Johnson, Jr.	Ah! So you know about the Ridge and about West—	12:30
Blair Murphy	Uh-huh.	12:32
Harvey N. Johnson, Jr.	Strawberry Mansion.	12:33
Blair Murphy	Oh, yeah.	12:34
Harvey N. Johnson, Jr.	Now, all those were places that I went. That was my summer. I went swimming at the club on 21st Street. [indistinct 00:12:47] well, we just went and of course, to Ridge Avenue. But Philadelphia was my place to go in the summer to be protected against the evils of the segregated society. That's good, in effect, because it did not permit me to come head-to-head with the problems.	12:34
Harvey N. Johnson, Jr.	I can well remember back when the time came for college to be over. I lived in the dormitory so that we would talk among ourselves, "What you going to do in the summer? Where you going to work?" Some fellas said, "I'm going to work down Virginia Beach, work on the Fall River line, work at Atlantic City, and all these places." Say, "Harvey, what you going to do?" I said, "I'm going to Philadelphia." That's all I would say because I had no plans for going to work. I was just going.	13:10
Harvey N. Johnson, Jr.	But anyway, when college was over, my plan was to go to law school. I had made every plan to go to Howard Law School, but I had to wrestle with one question. I was a debater in college and I thought I was good. So, I figured I could be a tremendous lawyer. But my father was not opposed to my going to law school, but he wasn't sure that I knew what my reason was, or that I could cope with the kinds of cases that I would have to—Someone's coming in.	13:39
Blair Murphy	[indistinct 00:14:25].	14:23
Harvey N. Johnson, Jr.	All right. So, I would say, "I'm going to Philadelphia," and that would be the end of that.	14:27
Harvey N. Johnson, Jr.	Oh, and about law school. My father sat down with me and said, "Now, are you sure you're going to go to law school?" "Sure, I'm ready." Pause. "I got to ask you one question. I just want you to think about that and see if you can deal with that in your own mind before you decide. If a person comes to you and admits that he's innocent, can you handle this case?" "Oh, I certainly—" "Well, now suppose he tells you that he is guilty as charged and your [indistinct 00:15:16] is to find a way to get him off. How persuasive do you think you're going to be in a court for him that would match your persuasiveness for him had he indicated his innocence?" I said, "I don't know. I don't know. I'll think about that." I never resolved that in my own mind. So, I just did not do that.	14:35
Harvey N. Johnson, Jr.	I decided I would teach for a while and then go to graduate school. But fortunately for me, and I'm still on the basic subject of segregation, a funeral director in Portsmouth, whom I will never forget—I will always cherish his memory, was named William Grogan. He had Grogan Funeral Home. He was an elderly man who had a critical funeral business. At that time, Black people buried Black people; White people buried White people. It's a little different now. It's changing. But that's the way it was. So that the funeral business, barber business, the beauty culture businesses, those were businesses that Black people could depend on because they were theirs.	15:47
Harvey N. Johnson, Jr.	Anyway, I went to work for him as his business manager. He did a lot of business, and I went to help his business and stayed with him on for about two-and-a-half, three years. But I got an opportunity, by virtue of being there with him, to really, really come to grips with how people live. He not only buried people who had burial money, but he had a contract with the city of Portsmouth to bury paupers who were Black or bury people who did not have sufficient money. That made it possible for me to go the homes of people who had death in the family. You can see a father or mother died, lots of children around who didn't have the funds to bury them. You got a chance to see how they lived. That experience, I think, was a God-given experience because it has directed my life since then. I have sought to measure my activities in a way to counteract some of the [indistinct 00:18:12].	16:39
Harvey N. Johnson, Jr.	While in Portsmouth, I ran into types of segregation. See, I'm an adult now. I'm on my own. I'm in business. I'm working for Grogan. I had a chance to see the bitterness, bitterness that was between in the hearts of both Black people and White people. With Black people, it was a quiet, silent type of seething. Whites would express theirs because they had nothing to hide or to fear. I had opportunities to see that in action.	18:08
Harvey N. Johnson, Jr.	Well, I left the funeral home and accepted the position with the Portsmouth Housing Authority to do the preliminary work for what was to become the first Black permanent public housing project in Portsmouth. I was to do the survey to determine the need for the extent of it. I did that.	19:02
Harvey N. Johnson, Jr.	And now, I'm up into 1941. World War II broke out in November or December of '41. And naturally, I had to register. In—Let's see. In January or February of 1942, I was at a housing conference in Baltimore. You see, all this was a national housing conference. Blacks and Whites who were in public housing were together. The meeting was at the Lord Baltimore Hotel. The meetings were there. But the Blacks, we could not live there. Still segregation in Baltimore. So, Black delegates to that conference had to go to the York Hotel, to the Black Hotel that was off of Madison Street in Baltimore. We'd have to go there and go back and forth to the sessions at the Lord Baltimore.	19:26
Harvey N. Johnson, Jr.	While there, this is an aside, I think, but while there, I was having such a good time involved in all that, I said, "This is something wrong. I'm not supposed to enjoy myself in this space. Let me call," see when things happen. I called home, talked to my father, and I said, "Do I have any mail?" He said, "Yes, you do." And I said, "Open it and read it because I'm sure I know what it is." It was my greetings from President of the United States, and I was being called into service.	20:42
Harvey N. Johnson, Jr.	Well, I went into the service, hoping—I had no problem with that. I wanted to go. I would've gone anyway. I would not have wanted any deferment. I was given a short deferment in order to clear up my work position. But I went into the service. Now, here is where the segregation really hit. Okay?	21:15
Harvey N. Johnson, Jr.	The first thing that was required to do was to take the Army General Classification Test. I took that test and apparently made a reasonably high score. They don't determine your race just from the score. All the scores go in together. Then they were to assign people to the units according to what they thought people were tested. Each time they would call us out at the reception center in Maryland, they would never call my name. I said, "Am I in the right place? Do they have my name? Have I missed hearing my name?" I was scared to death because those sergeants, they were tough. But each time they called, sent people out, I'd be left. I found out that it wasn't that, it was that score that was given me.	21:43
Harvey N. Johnson, Jr.	I was called into the personnel office there at the base and was told by some young White fella in the office that I was to be assigned there in the reception center as a clerk because of my score or whatever. He said, "That's good now. Right here in Maryland. Don't have to go overseas." But that didn't happen. They sent me to chemical warfare service in Maryland. I said, "Well, that's all right. I'll go here. I'm no chemist. But if they want me to go, fine."	22:45
Harvey N. Johnson, Jr.	I took the test for officer candidate. The officer candidate school was right there. I passed the test. But before they could assign me to the next class, they sent me out to form a chemical warfare battalion, to be a part of the chemical warfare battalion that was being established in MacDill Field in Tampa, Florida. We established eight companies. I moved. I stayed there about six to eight months. Within a period of eight or nine months from the day that I entered the service, I moved through all of the grades to become first sergeant or sergeant major. That was because of the shortage of people, you see, with the skills needed to form those companies.	23:33
Harvey N. Johnson, Jr.	Now, here comes the real—Well, while I was there, I was familiar with a family in Tampa because a friend of my father's was the publisher of the Tampa Bulletin newspaper, Reverend Park. I could go to visit them and meet people. But at Tampa, Black people had to be out of White neighborhoods by sundown, including Black soldiers, Black anybody, unless the only reason, the thing that you could do to be in a White neighborhood in Tampa, Florida, in that time after sundown, you'd have to have a reason for being there, like a nurse or somebody in a uniform who were established. So, there was a lot of tension in Tampa, Florida off the base. Now, on the base, apparently there was no problem.	24:39
Harvey N. Johnson, Jr.	My experiences in the service were good and bad. I decided to apply for Officer Candidate School there. Officer Candidate Air Corps Administrative School, which was right there. Passed the course, and the papers had to go to the Commanding General of the Third Air Force at Herbert Smart Airport, Georgia. It was the determination there, not mine, that instead of my going to the Air Corps Administrative School at Tampa, at MacDill Field, that I was to go to the Absent General's Officer Candidate School in Maryland.	25:33
Harvey N. Johnson, Jr.	Now, no Black person had been sent there at all. Because of my being selected to go there to that school, Absent General's Officer Candidate School, that became news on the base. I was a sergeant major for that battalion. My office was in the base headquarters. So, here's a Black guy being selected by the Commanding General of the Third Air Force to go to the Absent General's Officer Candidate School. Oh, I was a celebrity. So, I was removed from duties and put on casual duty until the time came for the class that I was to join.	26:25
Harvey N. Johnson, Jr.	Time came and time went. Time came and time went. And I was not called. So, question came up, "What's happening?" The base commander at Tampa, Florida sought to find out what the hold-up was. Eventually, all of my papers came back marked, big red letter, Colored, Colored. They didn't say Negro or Black. Colored. Colored. Colored. The information was that though I was not selected or could not be selected for the Officer Candidate School for the Absent General, I should be considered for any other of the Candidate Schools of my choice. Maybe I should have chosen. But I said, "No. I want to go to that one. Now, since the Commanding General has decided that I should go, that's the one. It's there or nothing." Maybe I shouldn't have. But I said it. And that was that.	27:11
Harvey N. Johnson, Jr.	I remained with the battalion and the went to Columbia, South Carolina. At that point, persons trained in chemical warfare were being sent overseas in groups so that it depleted the number of people there. Well, I wound up then not having duties. Here I am, six stripes [indistinct 00:28:51] and they're sitting around waiting for something. They could not find anything [indistinct 00:28:55].	28:21
Harvey N. Johnson, Jr.	Then something happened that I thought was quite significant. I thought I was the only Black person who was suffering being pushed aside. But when they sent me from Columbia, South Carolina to Daniel Field, Augusta, Georgia, I found out that at Daniel Field, Augusta, Georgia, was the place that they sent a large number of Black men from all over the country, apparently, who had high scores, had specific training, most of them at college level, but who were not acceptable to the military. They had to get us out of sight. Just imagine that. Here is a large group of men from all of the colleges sitting around talking against the United States because they were bitter. Bitter. I mean, really bitter because they knew what was being done to them. Some of them, I believe, sat out the entire war right there at Daniel Field, Augusta, Georgia.	28:55
Harvey N. Johnson, Jr.	I was sent to form a new company to Macon, Georgia, to form a chemical trucking company. Chemical trucking service. All Black. That's when I ran into the situation that I consider to be the darkest part of my life, but the brightest. I'm going to give it to you [indistinct 00:30:53]. If you get nothing else, get this part because I have made speeches about this because it has really been something.	30:22
Harvey N. Johnson, Jr.	There at Macon, Georgia, at the airport every morning, I'm the first sergeant, now, in the company of truckers. There were German prisoners on the airport to keep the airport clean. We'd take truckloads of them around. We didn't do that. But the MPs on the bench would do that. There was a rash of bitter beatings of men in my company when they would go to Macon on pass. Without exception, every time the trucks would come back, there'd be instances where my men would've been beaten by the local police and by the MPs [indistinct 00:32:00]. Although we protested to my commanding officer and the base commander, nothing was being done about it.	31:04
Harvey N. Johnson, Jr.	There was a tenet of the field that if a man had rank, that he would want to protect that rank rather than to correct the problem. To me, correcting the problem was greater than keeping the rank. I got to the point where I said, now, we got to have a meeting. I told my company commander, "All I'm asking is that the men in the organization have a chance to tell you and tell the base commander exactly the things that happened to them because nothing seems to be done."	32:11
Harvey N. Johnson, Jr.	Apparently, my doing this, I must have persuaded them because one morning after our trucks had left—See, our trucks would go out in the morning, they'd come back at noon for lunch, and go out again. The trucks had gone out and the telephone rang in the orderly room, and the company commander, after he hung up, had said, "Sergeant Johnson, I got good news for you." Said, "What is it?" "That meeting you all been asking for? Meeting is going to be held." I said, "Oh, this is good news. I'm certainly glad to hear that. That is best news. I can't—" See, I'm on top of the mountain. I said, "When will it be?" "Today!" "Oh!" I said, "Great, great. The men will certainly want to hear that."	32:41
Harvey N. Johnson, Jr.	I said, "What time?" "At lunchtime when men come in." I said, "Now, sir, you know that's dinnertime. They'll be coming in off from their place, from their duty, and they'll have to go back." He said, "Well, Sergeant, let me tell you, that has been considered. The men want to meet. You want to meet. Lunch will be served in the mess hall. The men who want to go to lunch will go, men who want to go to a meeting will go, but they will not be [indistinct 00:34:38]."	33:43
Harvey N. Johnson, Jr.	Imagine that. Now, you out there working and you come in hungry and I'm telling the men, "You either to go to lunch or go to the meeting." The meeting was going to be held in a hangar up on the runway because it was an airport. You can't imagine what was going through my mind from 11 o'clock until I heard those trucks coming in. What do I say to these men? And what will they do? If they decide to go to lunch, then I'm dead because it would appear that I'm the one who's stirring things up and it wasn't that important for them to have meeting. But anyway, I don't know what their decision would be. If ever a person prayed, I prayed earnestly because I wanted the right thing for them.	34:37
Harvey N. Johnson, Jr.	When the trucks came in, I had a formation so that I could give them the option. I told them that the meeting that had been requested would be held that day. Oh, then I would get a great cheer. I said, "But it will be afternoon hour. It will not be before lunch or after lunch. It will be in place of lunch. Those who want to go to lunch, lunch will be served. Those who will go to the meeting—" I said, "Now, wait," before they start rumors and grumbling," said, "When the regular whistle blows for lunch after you go and wash up, from there, companies who are going to lunch line up at the mess hall as you always do. Those who are going to meeting, line up at the company street when that whistle blows."	35:24
Harvey N. Johnson, Jr.	I had no idea at that point what they'd decide. I went out at the right time and blew the whistle for the formation. Went out into the company street. I told this at a speech, and tears were just rolling down my face. I couldn't help it. I turned my face to the street so that I wouldn't see, and I could hear the men assembling. Finally, a corporal touch me on my shoulder, said, "Sir, we're ready." And I turned around. Not a soul was standing at the mess hall. Everybody was [indistinct 00:37:21]. That was the highest point in my life, I have to tell you. I have to tell you. Because it was something that the men decided for themselves. I didn't decide.	36:33
Harvey N. Johnson, Jr.	We went on out there—Oh, before that, just before we left to go up to march up to the meeting, the mess hall door opened. The mess sergeant was a regular Army man. When that door opened before we marched out, he marched out of the mess hall and behind him, all the cooks and the KPs and everybody working in the kitchen, and they lined up, too, so nobody was in the mess hall. We marched up there for the meeting and they held it, and men made known their complaints and so on.	37:32
Harvey N. Johnson, Jr.	Then I spoke because while we were in that meeting and the doors to the hangar were open, because planes had to come in there, and I heard this rustling at the door, and turned around and looked at the open doors because we were facing the front, you see? There was a semicircle of MPs, military police with their carbine rifles drawn, looking into our meeting. These are American soldiers, [indistinct 00:38:46] American soldiers, looking into the meeting. When I turned around and saw that, then I stood up and looked out, and the men in there turned around and looked and saw these MPs with carbines drawn, trying to intimidate us.	38:10
Harvey N. Johnson, Jr.	At that point, I was ready for my life to end. I had no—I wasn't married. I had no reason to live any longer. I made a speech that I don't think I'll ever be able to make again. But I, at that time, spoke about the horrors of the war and the mistreatment of American people, American soldiers [indistinct 00:39:29] I did right here. I remember these words. On a American base, men preparing for war, not knowing if they were going to survive and here are MPs, all soldiers, pointing their guns at us, and passing by would be one MP sitting on the cab of a truck and a truckload of German prisoners. See, one of them just sitting there controlling a truckload of German prisoners, and here you had a whole platoon of MPs pointing their guns on fellow soldiers. Well, somehow the word got out. The word got out to remove them. They quietly moved them out.	39:02
Harvey N. Johnson, Jr.	The result of that was that the things changed at that base. I was removed from the base because I've had too much power. They removed me. The base commander was removed. The base chaplain was removed, and my company commander was removed. They cleaned the base out because of that activity. It ended positively, I assume.	40:20
Harvey N. Johnson, Jr.	I wound up ultimately in Europe. When World War II in Europe ended, I was supposed to take a group to the Pacific, but they dropped the bomb and the same boat that we were supposed to get on to go to the Pacific [indistinct 00:41:05] we [indistinct 00:41:05] Panama Canal, we got in that [indistinct 00:41:07] and came back to the States.	40:43
Harvey N. Johnson, Jr.	That pretty much is my involvement in terms of segregation. After World War II, the things have begun to make some changes. Of course, we may be headed back in another direction now. But I'm involved in things that deal with helping people to help themselves to get away from dependence [indistinct 00:41:42].	41:10
Harvey N. Johnson, Jr.	I taught at Norfolk State. That's how I knew Mrs. Dozer [indistinct 00:41:50].	41:43
Blair Murphy	You start teaching after World War II?	41:51
Harvey N. Johnson, Jr.	Huh?	41:52
Blair Murphy	When did you start teaching?	41:53
Harvey N. Johnson, Jr.	Oh. Now, when World War II ended, then I had an option to go back to the housing authority as a manager or go to graduate school. I chose not to go back. I went onto graduate school and got a degree in public administration [indistinct 00:42:07]. I took courses a couple of summers at Harvard.	41:56
Blair Murphy	Did you take advantage of that [indistinct 00:42:15].	42:13
Harvey N. Johnson, Jr.	Yeah. I did.	42:15
Blair Murphy	—Virginia law?	42:15
Harvey N. Johnson, Jr.	The Virginia law, too? Yeah. Under the Virginia law—	42:16
Blair Murphy	You couldn't go here.	42:20
Harvey N. Johnson, Jr.	See, I could go for any course that was not being taught at Virginia State College, it was then, as long as that course also was taught in a White university. So, public administration was taught at the University of Virginia, but it wasn't taught at Virginia State. So, the state supplemented my GI Bill, you see? I went to NYU and got my graduate degree in public administration and was going to go to the University of Ankara, Turkey to build a group for NYU to form public administration program there. But I was asked to come back to Portsmouth to close out the federal temporary war housing before I go to State.	42:23
Harvey N. Johnson, Jr.	I came on back through that, and then while doing that and taking courses at Harvard, I was asked to start teaching at Norfolk State, and I took it one year while still holding onto the job in Portmouth because I never taught. I wasn't sure that I would enjoy it. But let me tell you: The experiences there at what was then the Norfolk Division of Virginia State College, interacting with students, it was for me a fine experience. So, that was it. I was going to do that.	43:18
Harvey N. Johnson, Jr.	I had had up some options to do some other things. I called at Harvard when the summer ended. I had a professor [indistinct 00:44:11] and he could not understand why I wanted to go back to Norfolk and why I didn't have a degree in public administration, why not do something else. He said, "Come by the office." I went to his office. [indistinct 00:44:25]. And he said, "Wait a minute. Let me see." He was going to pick up his telephone, and he could, at that time, here's the power that some of those professors in those big schools had, and with governor ties, he was going to pick up his telephone and call United States Housing Authority or somebody he knew in Washington and tell them I was going to come down there. He could assure me the job. Just imagine that. Here's a college professor going to pick up his telephone in his office and call Washington and get me a job there just like that.	44:01
Harvey N. Johnson, Jr.	I said, "Well, wait a minute. Wait a minute." I said, "No, I don't think I want it like that." To myself. I said, "No, don't call yet. Don't call yet. Let me think about it." Because it was either my allowing him to get me a job or my going back to Norfolk State where I knew that I could be of service. I didn't want to do it like that. All of the things that I've done since have dealt with—	45:06
Harvey N. Johnson, Jr.	I'm doing consulting work now at an organization that I head, the National Institute for Minority Economic Advancement, called NIMEA. It was based in Virginia Beach. [indistinct 00:45:41].	45:37
Blair Murphy	Mm-hmm.	45:39
Harvey N. Johnson, Jr.	I had an office on Greenwich Road in Virginia Beach. I opened that office.	45:40
Blair Murphy	What was the organization called?	45:57
Harvey N. Johnson, Jr.	Beg pardon?	45:57
Blair Murphy	What was the organization called?	45:57
Harvey N. Johnson, Jr.	The National Institute for Minority Economic Advancement. N-I-M-E-A—Oh, I left Norfolk State on a leave of absence, by the way, to head the STOP Organization, the Community Action Agency for the six cities in two counties. You see? I retired from that. Came in 1982, opened the office, Virginia Beach in 1983 in January. I had Earl Graves from Black Enterprise to come down as my main speaker on occasion, things was getting ready to take off.	46:12
Harvey N. Johnson, Jr.	Then my wife—I went home one day, and I opened the door—	46:42

Blair Murphy	Okay.	0:00
Harvey N. Johnson, Jr.	She said yes, but I knew that something was wrong. I opened the office in '83. This was in 1985. I went in to see them. She didn't look right. She was having a stroke right then. Right then, and, as I found out, it hit her on the right side of her brain, which disabled the left side of the body. Closed eye, just the left eye, and this hand and the leg were drawn up.	0:04
Harvey N. Johnson, Jr.	Well, she's comfortable now, but I tried to keep the office open. I had to cancel all of my travel, all the things I'd planned to do because I wanted to keep the office going and take care of her. But I found that—So I was maintaining that office, just maintaining. I was doing more work at home than I was doing at the office. So when the time came for the new lease, I decided not to fight that but to move the office to my house. I got a variance, a clearance with the city, on zoning. Part of [indistinct 00:01:22] the office. We developed a project called the Galaxy Project, which of course I hoped would be successful. But that's basically what it's all about.	0:38
Harvey N. Johnson, Jr.	In terms of segregation, I have been able to see, in my time, movement from absolutely no Black people in elected positions, I mean absolutely none, and no Black people in administrative, public administrative positions or in important private positions, [indistinct 00:02:10], to what is now today, instances where the Black people are in the majority in city councils, Black mayors, Black city managers. I'm involved with some Black members of the city council, Black members of the state legislature, Black governor of Virginia, Black members of Congress, Senate, Supreme Court.	1:39
Harvey N. Johnson, Jr.	I have seen the growth of opportunity in the political realm, but unfortunately I have not seen to my satisfaction a companion growth in economic growth among Blacks to match the growth in [indistinct 00:03:07]. And the two things in my judgment need to go together. We are facing now some curtailments, and we don't have the fear, the threat of foreign aggression, that we once had when Russia was an enemy. And many of the things that were achieved for our benefit as a racial group were achieved because of the fear of Russian aggression.	2:41
Harvey N. Johnson, Jr.	Now that there is no fear of that, then I don't know what the future is going to be. I know that it is going to require every thinking of the options here in America for people. It's got to be an improvement in the quality of education, improvement in the mind and the lives of people. We're going to have to get away from a dependence on government. It's got to be about breaking the cycles that have operated against us. That's the way I see it.	3:42
Blair Murphy	Okay. Now let me ask you, do you feel that there were economic losses because of the end of segregation? Because Black people had to rely on Black businesses.	4:39
Harvey N. Johnson, Jr.	During segregation, Black people had a number of businesses. They had banks, savings and lean associations. They had benevolent protective organizations, clubs. They had grocery stores, barber shops and beauty parlors and funeral homes, practiced medicine, all. Of course they were in schools, and all sorts of things, cab companies, and they had those because of segregation.	4:54
Harvey N. Johnson, Jr.	They had a large number of independent Black farms. Blacks owned farms, Virginia Beach, best example. Some of the pristine parts of the beach where they have the fingers of the legs and the waterways. Black Bay was owned by Black people and the little family farms for the most part. And the little town of Virginia Beach, which is just down by the water, it was a recreation, was a resort town because the Atlantic Ocean was right there. And the little city, little town that was on beach was White.	5:47
Harvey N. Johnson, Jr.	Black people could not swim in that water, could not stay in any of the hotels there down at the beach because of the little town. The little hamlet of [indistinct 00:06:52], which is in [indistinct 00:06:52], was the living quarters for Blacks who worked at the beach when—And between the city of Norfolk and the town of Virginia Beach was the county of Princess Anne, and in the county of Princess Anne, Blacks owned a lot of land. I tell you, they really did. They owned a lot of land.	6:35
Harvey N. Johnson, Jr.	When Virginia Beach, town of Virginia Beach, and the county of Princess Anne joined, the formed the city of Virginia Beach. Then that land, Princess Anne County where Blacks lived, became very valuable. It was all of what you see here. Everything that has grown up has been in the last 20 years since that. It's a lot of farms land and Blacks lived on it. They owned it, much of it. They sold it, in many instances for prices that they had thought were good prices, but they didn't hold it long enough in some instances. Just what they did.	7:31
Harvey N. Johnson, Jr.	I remember going to Booker T. Washington High School in Norfolk, and I had friends who came from Virginia Beach Boarding School in Norfolk because there was no comparable high school for Blacks. So they had to come commute. But to your basic question, yes, that we had the percentage of Black owned businesses was a higher percentage during segregation than the percentage of Black owned businesses is now. It is more difficult, but the options are better.	8:10
Harvey N. Johnson, Jr.	And I would hope that even though they had their own business, because they could not have [indistinct 00:09:00], that even now with the doors open, if we do it as good or better, good service, doors open on time, proper everything, people will come because people want quality. They'll come for it. I don't believe basically that just racial hatred, racial hatred, is as pronounced as some people think. People, they will—With the majority group, it's the dollar, wherever I can get the best deal. [indistinct 00:09:45]. I'm hopeful for the future. We got to go through a period. I think, I hope, I've answered.	8:49
Blair Murphy	Yeah. So do you think—A lot of people will say to me that they don't think segregation is totally over. Do you think that it is?	9:51
Harvey N. Johnson, Jr.	Segregation is over. Physical segregation is over. I can go back when they say you just can't go here, you can't go there. You can go anywhere. You can. If you've got the money, nobody can—You can get on a bus, sit wherever you please, bus or the train or the plane, and go anywhere you want if you want to, and stay as long as you pleas, if you can afford to be there. You can go in any hotel.	10:09
Harvey N. Johnson, Jr.	Now, you may, in some little off roads, may find some people who still don't know what time of day it is. No, you can't come here or you shouldn't go there. But that kind of segregation is gone. But there is a segregation of mind that still exists on people. There are Black people who are not—don't feel comfortable in some places where White are, and there are Whites fell uncomfortable if they're in the minority. When they look around, there are a lot more Black folks than White folks. "I got to get out of here." You see? But that's a mental thing.	10:32
Harvey N. Johnson, Jr.	Crime is mental deterrent. There's a perception in the minds of people that crime basically is, it's caused by Black folks. Now, they know there are White criminals, but they think they're on a higher level. But they say if he were to go down the street at night and hear Black man coming from this direction, a White man coming from that direction, both coming towards you, you got to decide and let's see what do I do? What side of the street should I walk?	11:09
Harvey N. Johnson, Jr.	Let's go on the White side That Black guy, he's more—Has a moral preponderance thing for criminal than White. There's a perception, you see? There's a perception that in the Black community there's going to be more crime. But what people apparently don't go to the next point of, and I've asked the question, if this particular—Like public housing, right? If in a public housing project it is perceived to be a hotbed of crime, because statistically there is more crime committed there than in a companion area outside, so he said [indistinct 00:12:35] and that's a crime area he was in, and let it go at that.	11:51
Harvey N. Johnson, Jr.	I raised the question. Has anybody ever done a statistical study to determine where the criminal lives? Where is this criminal's home? Not where the crime was committed, but where did the person live who committed the crime where the crime was committed? So if you take your statistics on the basis of where the crime is, occurs, that's one thing.	12:37
Harvey N. Johnson, Jr.	But you want to check and see where did the criminal come from who committed the crime, at the place where he felt comfortable committing. See the difference? You may find out that most of the people who commit crimes in certain places commit crimes in those places because they feel that they can get away from it in those places. But they hope—Or take the question up there. There's a tendency to put a lot of folks in one bag who are law breakers and call that the criminal element. I say, no, there is no criminal element. There are criminal elements. [indistinct 00:13:48].	13:06
Harvey N. Johnson, Jr.	There are people who are at different levels of crime occurring. They're at the far extreme. There are those who are criminals because they were born to be. They're just going to be regardless. There, that's the hard core criminal whatever his race, Black, White or whatever. It's hardcore. People don't understand it. May come out of a good family, but for some reason just mean, that's it.	13:48
Harvey N. Johnson, Jr.	But at the other end, there are people who don't want to be. But according to the environment, I got caught into a situation, kid in a gang and the gang gets caught into something. He's part of it. He gets slapped with it because he was there, and he has no way of—Can't go back. So he just has to move up into the system. There are criminal elements, and if you can reach into that element at some point as far up as you can and give them an alternative, you can pull, I believe, some of them back, as long as you can show them something else.	14:22
Harvey N. Johnson, Jr.	There are kids walking the streets today, and it's whatever time it is, and they don't care about tomorrow because they don't know about tomorrow. If it comes okay, fine. No big deal. To them, it's at the moment. They have no plans for tomorrow because their friends are dropping by the—They don't know. It's no big deal. When you get to that point—	14:54
Blair Murphy	That's bad.	15:29
Harvey N. Johnson, Jr.	It's bad.	15:34
Blair Murphy	Do you think that—Just one more question. Do you think that the young people of today are any different than the young people were when you were growing up? And if so, how so?	15:35
Harvey N. Johnson, Jr.	There are differences, of course. When I was growing up, there was a respect for authority. The home was governed. The home was the governor, and I think—And there were one family, one parent families, of course. There were instances where the mother had to handle the whole situation. A father may or may not do that, but she was in charge. If the father was in the house, he was in charge. They had routine. Everybody had something to do and they had to abide by a home rule. Much better than now, so much so that if one became recalcitrant, then they'd deal with that one but that did not disturb that community. They had hours of things, breakfast time, and you better be there for breakfast, lunchtime, dinnertime, time to be home by a certain hour of night.	15:44
Harvey N. Johnson, Jr.	And so if anybody was out walking around, that person was looked down upon by the neighborhood because he was not conforming to the [indistinct 00:17:21]. And church, the church was a strong force in the lives of people. People identified with churches, even if they did not themselves belong. If anybody in the family belonged, everybody was supposed to belong to the church and the school. These were institutions that impacted upon the lives people much more than they do now.	17:07
Harvey N. Johnson, Jr.	So the contract—Everybody was identified. Everybody had an identity. He or she was not only him or herself, but a part of something. Okay? You had to go to school because the law says, and the truant officer was out there to make sure if you didn't—If you weren't in school, you had to hide because somebody in that street would find you were not. You couldn't walk the street if you were of school age and out of school. You had to have a reason. No big deal man. Right?	17:45
Harvey N. Johnson, Jr.	It is possible for children to be born today [indistinct 00:18:30]. A child can be born today and his first contact with government, with an institution, would be at birth. The law requires a birth certificate, and there's certain things that doctors supposes, whoever delivering that child by law, that's the first contact. But of course the child doesn't know anything about that.	18:22
Harvey N. Johnson, Jr.	It is not necessary to be affiliated with the church or this institution. So that child can live six years or so without any interference by any institution at all if the family doesn't require. Then comes a time that the law says, "Last time we bothered with you was when we got you a birth certificate. Now we're coming at you this time. You've got to go to public—You got to go to school."	19:03
Harvey N. Johnson, Jr.	So you got to get the necessary inoculations and vaccinations and so on. You've got to go because the law says so. So the child goes, because you got to go. doesn't go, somebody got suffer, right? If something goes wrong in school, the law says you are—We can't deal with you. We're going to put you out. And my child gets put out of school. You can be put out of the school in elementary school, which means you are expelled, which means that we no longer have a place for you. It is not productive for us to keep you here. Go home. Go home. Hear that? Listen.	19:49
Harvey N. Johnson, Jr.	Talking about today, now. Having been expelled from school, that child is not required to be anywhere else. Somebody on behalf of that child can get some family support for his food, a place to live, but in terms of an institution, that child is free, free. Doesn't have to belong anywhere. It is not even necessary now to register for the fit for service. That's not required anymore. You don't have to register, I think.	20:42
Harvey N. Johnson, Jr.	See, if that child can avoid the law, can avoid doing things that will put him back into the hands of the government, if he can just tiptoe through the tulips, that child can go all the way through life without interference. If it can find a way to live and eat and sleep. We don't have military duty no more. If he can stay out of the clutches of the law, he does not have to belong anywhere to anything, so that the only contact the child knows, that he would've had, was when he had to go to school. Then he got put out. And if it doesn't get put out, he can stay in school until the end of the time of the requirement. Then he can come on out.	21:29
Harvey N. Johnson, Jr.	There are people walking around, I'm contrasting it with how worked before, who have no connection with any institution at all. And I'm including family now because families are—Some families are so disintegrated. They have children who just—And it's not a racial thing, it's just total. It's a total American dilemma, but there's no requirement to belong to anything. If you don't belong to something, you're just a loose cannon, and there are a lot of loose canons.	22:36
Harvey N. Johnson, Jr.	And there is a difference. There is a difference. A whole generation has grown up, without regard to race, of people who have no roots. I look at some TV programs sometimes, and the things that people go on some TV programs to admit to in the conduct of their lives, and they're just as proud as they could be to tell it. [indistinct 00:23:47].	23:19
Harvey N. Johnson, Jr.	I shouldn't tell you this because you're young. You've got to face this kind of stuff. I'm dropping all of this on your lap.	23:47
Blair Murphy	No, I asked the question.	24:00
Harvey N. Johnson, Jr.	Yes you did. That's [indistinct 00:24:05].	24:02
Blair Murphy	Okay. I guess, unless there's anything you'd like to add.	24:02
Harvey N. Johnson, Jr.	Well, I didn't know how this was going go.	24:10
Blair Murphy	Okay.	24:12

Item Info

Title:

Harvey Johnson interview recording, 1995 August 04

Date:

August 4, 1995

Creator:

Johnson, Harvey N.

Contributor:

Murphy, Blair

Description:

Name: Harvey N. Johnson; Date of birth: 1915-11-02; Place of birth: Richmond, VA; Occupation(s): business manager; educator; Residence: Portsmouth, VA
Informant ID: 1000; Interviewed by: Blair Murphy.

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Behind the Veil

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Behind the Veil: Documenting African American Life in the Jim Crow South interviews, photographs, and project records, circa 1864-2011, bulk 1990-2004

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The David M. Rubenstein Rare Book and Manuscript Library acquired the Records of the Behind the Veil Oral History Project from the Duke University Center for Documentary Studies in 1997, 1998, 2000, and 2002.

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Harvey Johnson interview recording, 1995 August 04

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1. Harvey Johnson administrative file, 1995

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