Arthur Lawson (primary interviewee) and Leon Lawson interview recording, 1995 July 20

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Kisha Turner	Okay. I guess we can begin by you all stating your full names and when you were born.	0:01
Arthur Mae Lawson	I'm Arthur Mae Lawson. I was born September the 2nd, 1934 in Reidsville, North Carolina, Rockingham County.	0:08
Leon Edward Lawson	I'm Leon Edward Lawson, III. Born in Raleigh, North Carolina, November the 27th, 1930.	0:28
Kisha Turner	If you all could, in your own turn, discuss a little about the communities you grew up in, the type of work people did primarily?	0:45
Arthur Mae Lawson	All right. I grew up in a rural community here in Virginia Beach. We were out in Princess Anne County at that time, and we were pretty sparsely populated because it was a truck farming region. We had to walk pretty good distances to get to the next house or to the store, about three or four miles either way. So we weren't, as a family, near people other than the people that my father worked for, which was a house close to the house that was built for us when we came to Virginia.	0:52
Kisha Turner	What brought your family to Virginia?	1:25
Arthur Mae Lawson	My father was a tobacco tenant farmer in Rockingham County in North Carolina. He was going from one tenant farm to the next. The names I recall being named in some writings that I found indicated that maybe he tried a farm for two or three years and, if it didn't work out too well there, he would move on to another farm. So one day he said that he was walking, plowing the fields and something hit him and said that, "God, it's got to be something better than walking down behind a mule on another man's farm."	1:27
Arthur Mae Lawson	My mother's brother came to the house that night, just incidentally, and told him about the Taylor Chemical Farm, a salt chemical company here in Norfolk. He wanted somebody to take care of his racing horses for him. Would he like to look into that? They did, and my father moved here.	2:05
Kisha Turner	Okay. And how old were you when you—	2:24
Arthur Mae Lawson	I was eight years old, 1942.	2:25
Kisha Turner	Okay. I know you were very young at the time. Were you able to attend school before you left?	2:27
Arthur Mae Lawson	Yes. In fact, there we had kindergarten, and I was taught by my cousin, Vivian Brown. We would walk five miles to school there. A cousin came to live with me so I would not have to walk alone. So I remember specifically taking six eggs to school in a brown bag so I could get lunch and bartering. Cousin Vivian had a little shop, and she would sell the eggs and would let me have lunch.	2:34
Kisha Turner	Okay. Tell me a little about Raleigh.	2:58
Leon Edward Lawson	Well, Raleigh was a big city and, back in those days, you couldn't get no work hardly. What little work you got was like a truck driver or domestic work, [indistinct 00:03:32] that for the women. That was about the extent of it.	3:07
Kisha Turner	What kind of work did your parents do?	3:39
Leon Edward Lawson	Well, my father died when I was six months old, and my mother did domestic work until I went into the service. And then she got sick and couldn't work no more. She had arthritis so bad she couldn't walk. So I got out the service and come back. We got married, and we moved over here. I brought my mama with us.	3:43
Kisha Turner	How about your schooling?	4:37
Leon Edward Lawson	Yeah, we had schools near to me. We had good schools, we thought. We had one high school, and every Black person in the city had to go to this one high school. I don't care what part of town you lived in, you had to get over to the school to go to school. The White people had schools every corner you look on, just like service stations, but we didn't. They wouldn't allow us to go to school there even if it was next door to where you lived. That's the way that was.	4:41
Kisha Turner	I've spoken with a couple of people who talked about, they've used terms like militant or, anyway, teachers who taught some Black history despite the rules about teaching those kinds of subjects in school. Did you all, by chance, learn any Black history in school?	5:42
Leon Edward Lawson	Mm—mm.	6:00
Arthur Mae Lawson	No. Completely left out of our history books. Virginia has a fourth grade history that they teach even to this day, and there is only a little bit about Blacks in there, not the true story of what the contributions were. They would highlight the slavery, and it was not taught in such a way that would make the students feel good about themselves. In fact, the students rather dreaded that portion of the text because it was so demeaning. So our textbooks have been void of the truth.	6:01
Kisha Turner	You all both were in education before?	6:43
Arthur Mae Lawson	Yeah.	6:45
Kisha Turner	So your family's evidently put a premium for education. Could you tell me a little about the way your parents encouraged you toward those fields?	6:46
Arthur Mae Lawson	Well, as for me, the purpose of my father leaving the tobacco farming area because when he said, "God, there's got to be something different," he knew that if we stayed in that environment, he would not be able to educate his children. I was the oldest of eight. One died at crib death very early. So when we came here, even though we had to walk five miles to elementary school, he could see a brighter future for us.	7:00
Arthur Mae Lawson	From one level of elementary to high school, I too had to go to — There only was one Black high school in this county at the time, and everybody who wanted to go to high school, Black, had to get to Union Kempsville on Witch Duck Road. But my parents wanted us to have a very good foundation because they wanted us to go to college. So they sent us by way of Norfolk Southern Bus Company to Norfolk to St. Joseph's High School in Brambleton. It was on Brambleton, it's demolished now, Brambleton Avenue.	7:29
Arthur Mae Lawson	By us getting a good background in high school, we were able to go on to college. We were able to go to college because we had a pastor here who was retiring. My father was making $18 and some—odd cents, raising seven children, and he could not pay for us to go to college. There wasn't any such thing as loans in those days. So our Reverend DA Russell from Jacksonville, Florida, was retiring and said to my father, "I know you want your children to get an education, so if you will let your two daughters," we were older, "come with me to Jacksonville, I'll see that they get an education."	8:06
Arthur Mae Lawson	He worked at the college where both of us met. My sister and I were musical, so he secured for us musical scholarships. It was Edward Waters Junior College at that time, and it was two years, of course, junior college. After that, we went to Allen University on a continued — These were African Methodist Episcopal church colleges because we are African Methodist Episcopal members. So we were able to get our college education because of the desire of my mother and father for us to have a better life and the kindness in the hearts of others to help us.	8:43
Speaker 1	Where is Allen located?	9:21
Arthur Mae Lawson	In Columbia, South Carolina. Yes.	9:22
Kisha Turner	What was the name of the school you attended before you moved here, the elementary school you went to?	9:26
Arthur Mae Lawson	Brown Summit Elementary School, kindergarten through seventh grade. Now, Mrs. Vivian Brown is deceased now, but there were a lot of Browns in Brown Summit. That's what Brown Summit was named for.	9:31
Kisha Turner	She started the school?	9:49
Arthur Mae Lawson	She started the school and, really, the city didn't do much to help her. It was a one—room schoolhouse where she had kindergarten through seventh grade.	9:50
Kisha Turner	Did she also teach?	10:00
Arthur Mae Lawson	She was a teacher. In those days she said you could teach when you finished high school. But as time went on, she received her other degrees because the state required it if she was going to run the school. So she had to get education ongoing gradually as she continued to work.	10:01
Speaker 1	Was St. Joseph a private school?	10:21
Arthur Mae Lawson	Catholic high school.	10:21
Speaker 1	It was Catholic?	10:21
Arthur Mae Lawson	St. Joseph Catholic High. 11th grade was the end of the high school at that time. I might say that at Edward Waters College, they had what they called the preparatory, 11th and 12th grade, and so I went there in 12th grade. My sister was with me. She was an 11th grader. But because we were together, they let her come up. She had to take a test and, if she did all right on it, we could be in the same grade. So they were dropping the 11th grade the year that we went, and so we went through college in the same level.	10:21
Kisha Turner	When your family moved to Virginia Beach, what was the community like you moved to in this city?	11:12
Arthur Mae Lawson	All right. As I said, when my father came here, he took care of AT Taylor's racing horses out at Bells Corner, formerly Princess Anne County. We merged in 1963. At that time, in the '40s, it was Princess Anne County. Even this was Princess Anne County. Let's see. I was 11 years old when we left there. So we stayed there about four years. My father moved right across the street with a friend who built us, I call it a chicken coop—type house.	11:19
Arthur Mae Lawson	You've seen the types of houses with the slanting back, the chicken coops with just the slant roof. When my father got tired of what was going on there with the racing horses, Mr. David Etheridge lives — His home place is there now. Were good friends to my father. He said, "Well, Arthur, I got some property, and I will build you all a house so you can get out of that environment."	11:55
Arthur Mae Lawson	So when he did that, we went to — Let's see, train of thought. Went to elementary school right here at Oceana, same school, but we didn't have to walk as far. It was about two miles to Oceana.	12:21
Kisha Turner	Was it primarily Black people?	12:36
Arthur Mae Lawson	Yes. In fact, this is the second oldest Black community, basically. East Lane, it was called. Seatack was the first in the city, and then we were the second. Now, I may be not accurate, but we were one of the first basically Black communities. The house on the corner, when they tore down the school that I went to, my father bought it for $100 from the superintendent, board by board, nail by nail, and put it back together, home for us, that gray shingled house there. Now it's gray shingles on it.	12:38
Arthur Mae Lawson	He bought four lots for $100. These were two, one across the street and that one. So that's how we began to become a part of this community.	13:18
Kisha Turner	Okay. Do you remember any stores or Black—owned businesses in the area?	13:28
Arthur Mae Lawson	All right. The same Mr. David Etheridge who built a house for us, a three—room house for seven children and a mother and a father, it was kind of them. Of course, as my father was able to move on. Had what we call Miss Jessie's Shop right there in this little gray block house. It's still there. Of course, they're dead. But that served the community. It was like a little general store.	13:36
Arthur Mae Lawson	Mr. David was very ingenious. He worked for the city, and he got my father on with that $18.75 cents an hour with the city sweeping the streets of Virginia Beach and found many a dollar to help with the family's budget. So he built on the back of the house a shop, and you could buy anything and everything in there. We had a little running account because we didn't always have money, and she let us pay on our bill.	14:00
Arthur Mae Lawson	We could always have bread and milk and peanut butter and cheese and certain meats she would carry. I don't know what we would have done without her because she supplied this little East Lane. Now, there was a store at the corner of Alaskan Road in Virginia Beach, the light that you came through, Mr. McKinney's grocery store. He was a big store at that time. Ms. Jessie's was a shop to us, but he had everything in it, a grocery store. He, too, would let all of the people around here buy on time.	14:25
Speaker 1	Was he Black?	15:03
Arthur Mae Lawson	He was White, a very good man, very compassionate, understanding. I don't know that he didn't pad my dad and other people's bills, but we survived, and we didn't always have to have the dollars to get the food. He also had a delivery service so that people who did not have transportation and had big families and needed to get the groceries to our homes.	15:03
Arthur Mae Lawson	On a bicycle my daddy rode, he could not do that. So Mr. McKinney had a delivery service that was a little van at that time. We would call up there or my dad would drop off the shopping list, and they would pick it up and bring it to this house for us down through the years.	15:28
Kisha Turner	Other than this gentleman who owned the store, do you remember interaction with other White people in neighboring communities or—	15:48
Arthur Mae Lawson	Yes.	15:54
Kisha Turner	— those kinds of relations?	15:55
Arthur Mae Lawson	All right. When we were AT Taylor's farm, I spoke of the sparsely—developed housed area because of the Whitehurst family. Several brothers had truck farming all over this region, even where the shopping centers are now. We worked for them. That would be our extra income. We spooned spinach. We hoed collards. We picked string beans. We picked strawberries. And then there was another farm, a bulb farm, the daffodil farm up here. We would cut daffodils.	15:56
Arthur Mae Lawson	Anything that the Whitehurst brothers would raise, we would — Say, for instance, they would pay us 10 cents for every quart of strawberries that we picked. If we made $15 in the course of a day, we were millionaires. I mean we would come home ecstatic. Our principal at Oceana would give us, when these were peak seasons, she would close school with the parents' approval so that all of us could go to the fields, pull corn, whatever the crop was, and we would be able to make money to help extend our family's abilities when it came to monetary support.	16:38
Kisha Turner	Were you able to make those days up in school?	17:24
Arthur Mae Lawson	Yes. Well, school was so different then because even though we had three rooms at Oceana — We called it Oceana University. We had great teachers who spent a lot of time with us. We would have three classes in one room. I was in fifth, sixth, and seventh grade. There was a lot of peer teaching, a lot of tutoring. The teacher would get us going, and then she'd find a strong student who would carry that group while she was teaching another group.	17:26
Arthur Mae Lawson	It was interesting in that setting that those of us in the fifth grade when we were finishing or working on our work while Ms. Haston, Emma W. Haston, I know you've heard her name, was working with another group, seventh grade. When we got to seventh grade, we knew most of what we were going to be doing in seventh grade and how to do it. So we were ahead because we were together. It didn't throw us back.	18:03
Arthur Mae Lawson	In fact, when we went to the Catholic high school, they wanted to know, "Where in the world did you all go to elementary school? You're so well—prepared, your English, your spelling." It was a spelling bee every Friday. I mean it was just a highlight of the week. She taught us art skills, music. We had a devotion that was inclusive for memory work of certain portions of scripture and old folk favorite hymns and songs of the South. It was just all—encompassing cultural—wise. She didn't just lock us into our culture. She exposed us to diversified cultures.	18:28
Kisha Turner	Do you recall taking trips into Norfolk?	19:14
Arthur Mae Lawson	When I went into high school, I did because — Now, my parents had friends. We didn't have a car for a long time. It was a real long time. But we had friends, like Mr. Etheridge or the Rainey family, who would take us what we called to town on Saturday, and that was a highlight when we could get to town—	19:18
Kisha Turner	Was it?	19:37
Arthur Mae Lawson	— on Saturday and see everything on Market Street or Church Street or Granby Street to get into the stores and get into Crushes. Finally, we could get one of their hamburgers that had been simmered in gravy. We couldn't get it for a long time, but we finally got one, and that was just heaven on Earth to be able to do that, and to finally stand at the counter, buy one, and get out the way was another privilege. So we did.	19:38
Arthur Mae Lawson	And then, of course, my being exposed to the high school there, we'd have to walk to the bus station downtown from the school every day. We walked down to the bus station. So we had to walk down Granby Street or Monticello Avenue, and that was exposure to the urban community, urban center.	20:04
Speaker 1	So Granby Street was primarily a White shopping area?	20:22
Arthur Mae Lawson	Yes, very much so. You better have some good business to be on that street. You were watched if you were on there for shopping. If young people were on there, we had to be with an adult or they would just scare you right away. So when we walked from the school down to the bus station, that was Norfolk Southern at the time, we always walked in a group. We never went alone, two or more. There was several of us from Virginia Beach whose parents sent us to St. Joseph's, so we would always be together.	20:28
Arthur Mae Lawson	They would tell us not to wander in and out of the stores. Our parents cautioned us because they might think we wanted — We always felt like somebody, they'll look at you and say, "Oh, they're going to steal something." So most time when we went in the stores, until I was about a senior, I was with someone, an adult. We would catch the bus with somebody, some grownup. Ms. Annie across the street there, would say, "Ms. Graves, I'm going to town. You need anything?"	20:58
Arthur Mae Lawson	So Mama would give me $5 and what to buy and, "Stretch it far as can." Lots of things that we would buy with $5 at that time. I'd be with Ms. Annie though. I couldn't be away from her till I was a teenager, 15, 16, 17. I meant to catch up with them.	21:22
Kisha Turner	Where did you buy clothing?	21:42
Arthur Mae Lawson	My mother made most of our clothing. Yes. In those days, they saved what they call the flour sacks. First, they were just plain, kind of like a muslin color, bland color. And then they began to make prints. So what everybody would do on the street when they buy 100 pounds of flour, that if it's a print, one 100—pound bag wouldn't be enough to make a dress. So they would exchange till she'd get enough of one print to make us a dress.	21:44
Arthur Mae Lawson	And then she would exchange with somebody else who was collecting a print to make her child a dress or some dresses. We wouldn't have but about two dresses. So we'd wash one one night, hang it by the stove, and wear a second dress. So it wasn't a fashion fair when you went to school. It was survival. They also made our undergarments with the same — They would use a plain sack about that color for our undergarments with strings in the underpants and the skirts.	22:16
Arthur Mae Lawson	We wore a lot of starchy clothes, make them pretty with bustly bows out of a little sack. Later years when that began to go out and they didn't buy flour that way, certain stores would carry fabric that you would really have to save for because it was pretty expensive to have to buy from the retailers. So we really didn't have a lot of clothes. But my mother always said, "Be clean. You wash everything you had today and put it by the stove so that you can have it fresh tomorrow."	22:43
Arthur Mae Lawson	Of course, they always did the big wash on Mondays for the whole week and boiled them in the big old black pot outside. They would build a fire and boil all the clothes to get them white and put blue in to make them bright. They believed in cleanliness. If you don't have a lot, be clean.	23:16
Kisha Turner	Mr. Lawson, could you tell me about your time in the service, when you went, and what that experience was like?	23:36
Leon Edward Lawson	Okay. Well, it was segregated when I went in, but I think I was in there about a year.	23:50
Kisha Turner	When did you go?	24:00
Leon Edward Lawson	'40—	24:01
Arthur Mae Lawson	'50. We were at Edward Waters, '54, '3.	24:04
Leon Edward Lawson	'2.	24:06
Arthur Mae Lawson	Okay. '52.	24:06
Leon Edward Lawson	'52. 1952. I think in 1953, they opened it up. But it was supposed to have been opened up, but it took a while for them to realize that a change had been made.	24:07
Speaker 1	Where were you sent?	24:43
Leon Edward Lawson	Hmm?	24:44
Speaker 1	Where were you sent in the service?	24:44
Leon Edward Lawson	Korea. The longer you were over there in combat, they'd love you like a brother. As soon as you come back to the States, they'd go on their side of town. You'd have to be on your side. But they were frightened. They were scared when you got to combat. They would get a box from home and allow you to open it.	24:44
Kisha Turner	Really?	25:31
Leon Edward Lawson	Yeah. That's how frightened they was. That's when you were overseas. But you'd come back to the States, they wouldn't hardly speak to you. They'd [indistinct 00:25:47].	25:33
Kisha Turner	How were you treated by the White officers?	25:52
Leon Edward Lawson	I thought pretty good. I couldn't see where they dealt with us no different than the others. We were in a mixed unit already, see? But it was still segregated. I remember one time we were on R&R. That's rest and recuperation. We were down in South Carolina. Myrtle Beach, I think it was. We could not go to the same beach they went to. We had to go to another beach. We all rode in the same bus, but we couldn't eat where they ate. We couldn't go to the beach where they went to the beach. But when we'd come back to camp, we could eat together. But out in the city, that's what they'd do.	25:57
Kisha Turner	Were the Black GIs outnumbered by the White ones? Were there more White ones?	27:32
Leon Edward Lawson	Yeah. More Whites. Yeah. Yeah. In our outfit it was.	27:35
Kisha Turner	Okay. At this point, were there any Black officers that you can recall?	27:44
Leon Edward Lawson	Yeah, I think it was some Black officers, but there wasn't any in our outfit.	27:49
Kisha Turner	Okay. Okay.	27:52
Leon Edward Lawson	I'm sure there was Black officers then, but we just didn't have any. In fact, we didn't even have a Black sergeant. The top rank was a corporal in our outfit.	28:03
Arthur Mae Lawson	And he made corporal. I said, and you made Corporal.	28:24
Leon Edward Lawson	Oh.	28:27
Kisha Turner	What's the process in attaining that kind of leadership position?	28:32
Leon Edward Lawson	Well, they would give you a test. You would have book work just like y'all do in school, and with your regular training. You answered them questions right, you could make it. But they didn't make too many of us, if we could make it, see? They wouldn't pick you.	28:43
Kisha Turner	Did you meet a lot of resistance to you trying to —	29:21
Leon Edward Lawson	I don't recall any, really. On the whole, 90% of the people were pretty good. In fact. I'd say they were real good. We really didn't have no problem with them. We knew what to expect. We knew the situation. We knew we couldn't do nothing about it, so just go ahead on with it.	29:33
Kisha Turner	How long did you stay in the service?	30:19
Leon Edward Lawson	Three years. Three years. I didn't like it. But I was going to try to stay longer, but I got pushed out. Somebody told me they ain't going to promise me that they would be here when I come back if I didn't get out then. So I said, "Well, I better get on out." That somebody's sitting right there. I was going for try to go long.	30:24
Arthur Mae Lawson	Come out of there.	31:17
Leon Edward Lawson	So I had to get out in order to keep her.	31:17
Kisha Turner	What kinds of things didn't you like about it?	31:18
Leon Edward Lawson	Didn't?	31:21
Kisha Turner	What kinds of things made you want to leave, I guess?	31:22
Leon Edward Lawson	Well, them bullets coming around your head, one. Yes, Lord. That was the biggest thing I hated.	31:25
Kisha Turner	Where were you based here?	31:45
Leon Edward Lawson	In South Carolina.	31:46
Kisha Turner	Okay.	31:48
Leon Edward Lawson	Columbia. That's where I took my basic training. From there, they shipped us right on over to Korea. We had a little furlough, and that was en route to California to catch the boat to go overseas. So they didn't waste no time with us. We went over there. I think it took us about 10 or 12 days to get over there. When we were coming back, it took us 28 days to get back. That's how fast they wanted us over there.	31:51
Kisha Turner	How were you treated by the Koreans?	32:52
Leon Edward Lawson	Well, when I saw them, pretty good. But the only person we'd really run in contact with was Korean was what you call a housemaid. We had a young lady. She used to keep our barracks up for us. That's after things cooled down. That was about the only one you got to talk to.	32:55
Arthur Mae Lawson	[indistinct 00:33:37]. That's all right.	33:40
Kisha Turner	Mr. Lawson, when did you get involved with education?	33:44
Leon Edward Lawson	Say when?	33:50
Kisha Turner	Mm—hmm.	33:55
Leon Edward Lawson	Well, all my life, I guess you might say. What extent you speaking of?	34:07
Kisha Turner	Maybe you could talk a little about your earlier education and also when you — Did you teach?	34:11
Leon Edward Lawson	No.	34:16
Kisha Turner	Okay.	34:20
Leon Edward Lawson	Mm—mm.	34:20
Kisha Turner	No? Okay.	34:20
Leon Edward Lawson	Okay. Well, I went to Lucille Hunter Elementary School. That's in Raleigh, North Carolina. From there, I went to Washington High. That's in Raleigh, public school. And then I went to Florida to Edward Waters. And then I left Edwards Waters and went into the service.	34:21
Speaker 1	How did you come to Edward Waters?	34:50
Leon Edward Lawson	Football scholarship.	34:56
Kisha Turner	Y'all met there, right?	35:03
Arthur Mae Lawson	We met in Edward Waters College.	35:04
Kisha Turner	What was the social environment, I guess you all can both talk about this, at Edward Waters?	35:12
Leon Edward Lawson	Well, I think it was pretty good. We were right in the middle of a Black community, and it was a small school. Everybody knew everybody. We knew everybody who lived around there, just about. I guess you would say it was pretty good.	35:28
Kisha Turner	What were the social customs? I'm sorry. What were the customs surrounding dating or that kind of thing at that time?	35:54
Leon Edward Lawson	I don't think on the campus you dated when? Sunday night?	36:18
Arthur Mae Lawson	Sunday night and Friday night.	36:21
Leon Edward Lawson	Friday night, too. I don't remember Friday night. Friday night, I thought was [indistinct 00:36:23].	36:22
Arthur Mae Lawson	Well, that was either/or, dances and things.	36:22
Leon Edward Lawson	Sunday night, you had to sit up and hold hands.	36:37
Arthur Mae Lawson	Around the wall.	36:43
Leon Edward Lawson	Mm—hmm.	36:44
Kisha Turner	Around the wall?	36:44
Arthur Mae Lawson	Big, old room, paired off. The sister, we'd call her the crimson ghost, would walk up and down the hall. My husband's very modest. When we were at Edward Waters College, the dean of men died, and Lawson was such a responsible person and very dependable. They made him unofficially the dean of men, and he was that until he went to the Army. Because of that, he made it possible for us to have a lot of social activities.	36:48
Arthur Mae Lawson	I don't think the other man would have done between the dormitories because they were not coeducational dormitories, naturally, in those days. So everybody called him Foots because he was a football player and a star from Raleigh and there. They would ask us, "What can you do? Can you get us together to dance this Friday night? Can you get the dean of women to let all the girls go to the movie who wanted to go?" We'd always have to go in a group.	37:26
Arthur Mae Lawson	So he would get us all together, and we'd walk downtown, paired off, to the movie and come back together. Were it not for Lawson, our social life, I believe, would not have been as enjoyable for relationships between the two dorms and male friends and girlfriends. One thing that we did enjoy, the dining hall was in the girl's dormitory. So the men would have to come through our dormitory to go to the cafeteria for all meals. So you'd get to see your close friends because of that, even if it wasn't a social hour for official visitations.	37:59
Arthur Mae Lawson	So we had a lot of good times because of my husband, and many classmates speak of that often through the years, the things that he'd provide or would get for us or allowed us to do. It was very strict. Very strict. You didn't leave the campus without a letter from your parent to visit even another woman in the community. Say we had a classmate from the city and we wanted to spend the weekend with her, our mother or father, one parent would have to write a letter approving us to be out of the dormitory officially over a weekend.	38:45
Kisha Turner	Did this differ for men and women?	39:22
Arthur Mae Lawson	I think it was not quite as tight, Lawson, for the men, right?	39:28
Leon Edward Lawson	No.	39:31
Arthur Mae Lawson	But the women were very, very rigid, for the women, and I can understand why.	39:31
Kisha Turner	They didn't care what the guys did.	39:38
Arthur Mae Lawson	Yeah.	39:41
Kisha Turner	This is in Jacksonville?	39:44
Arthur Mae Lawson	Uh—huh.	39:44
Kisha Turner	Okay. Now, you said you went to the movies in Jacksonville. Now, since it was a Black town, was it a segregated facility still?	39:47
Leon Edward Lawson	Yeah.	39:52
Arthur Mae Lawson	Yeah.	39:56
Leon Edward Lawson	Well, where [indistinct 00:39:59], it was not a Black town, but—	39:56
Arthur Mae Lawson	A section.	40:01
Leon Edward Lawson	You had a section.	40:03
Arthur Mae Lawson	A section.	40:03
Leon Edward Lawson	A Black section. You had to go in that section.	40:05
Arthur Mae Lawson	Go to the Black section.	40:06
Speaker 1	So it would be a all Black entertainment section?	40:07
Leon Edward Lawson	Yeah, yeah.	40:07
Arthur Mae Lawson	A strip.	40:07
Kisha Turner	Okay. I see.	40:07
Arthur Mae Lawson	Like Church Street in Norfolk. Everybody's got a Black strip, even though it's not as prominent now. As long as you stayed in that environment and didn't cross the line, you were pretty safe. As I said, we always recommended that we go in groups.	40:14
Speaker 1	Were there ever any problems in Jacksonville?	40:30
Arthur Mae Lawson	I don't recall any because we were there '52 to '54, and that was before — Well, we would watch games and things that would some indication that there was something going on nationwide or coming to fruition. But it was in '54 before Topeka what—you—call—it case. So it was just beginning to be a ruffle. But we were gone to Allen University from there on that campus. And then Allen University was about the same as there, the community. It was very much the same, just another city in the South.	40:34
Kisha Turner	Was that Black community in Jacksonville pretty — It sounds like it was pretty self—contained, in a sense. I mean I'm sure people had to work outside of it, but—	41:14
Arthur Mae Lawson	If you could call it a nice lower to middle class, they were good solid families and some residue, but we were in a very good section of town. I don't know if it remains that way. It was '72 when we went back, but that's been over 20 years now. But unless it's deteriorated a great deal, those people were people of substance.	41:22
Kisha Turner	So you did have grocery stores and clothing stores [indistinct 00:41:52]?	41:49
Arthur Mae Lawson	Well, clothing stores were more downtown, pure downtown. We'd get taxis in and out of there, but—	41:52
Leon Edward Lawson	But you had a lot of Black businesses down there, too.	41:58
Arthur Mae Lawson	Oh, yes. That's true.	41:58
Leon Edward Lawson	Down on Ashford Street.	41:58
Arthur Mae Lawson	Right, right.	41:58
Kisha Turner	What kinds of things were on Ashford?	42:12
Leon Edward Lawson	Well, you had clothing stores, nice restaurants. They had a grocery store.	42:15
Arthur Mae Lawson	It's almost a self—contained little city in itself, a city within a city.	42:28
Kisha Turner	Did White people ever come into that area for any reason?	42:34
Leon Edward Lawson	Oh, yeah.	42:41
Arthur Mae Lawson	Yeah, for shopping. They liked the food, a lot of them did. Can I get y'all something to drink?	42:44
Leon Edward Lawson	It was right on a highway, and you used to get traffic through there all the time. They even had their own golf course.	42:55
Arthur Mae Lawson	Right.	42:58
Leon Edward Lawson	Yeah. I forgot about that.	42:58
Arthur Mae Lawson	Jacksonville is something like Norfolk area because it's surrounded by military. They have a lot of military institutions there. That added to just the quality of life.	43:14
Speaker 1	It made it more progressive?	43:25
Arthur Mae Lawson	Yes. The beaches we'd go to. He would get us opportunities to go to the beaches were Black, like here.	43:27
Kisha Turner	What was the Black beach here?	43:38
Arthur Mae Lawson	Seaview on Shore Drive—	43:40
Kisha Turner	Seaview.	43:43
Arthur Mae Lawson	— Route 60. Seaview and Ocean Breeze. That's it. Those two side by side and Parker's was later. The three beaches right along the Chesapeake Bay. They closed up years ago.	43:47
Leon Edward Lawson	Do you know where Shore Drive?	44:00
Kisha Turner	Shore Drive?	44:02
Leon Edward Lawson	Yeah.	44:03
Kisha Turner	No.	44:05
Leon Edward Lawson	You don't?	44:05
Kisha Turner	No. We just got here a couple days ago.	44:05
Speaker 1	We haven't gone to the beach.	44:05
Kisha Turner	We haven't made it to the beach.	44:05
Arthur Mae Lawson	You've been working hard. You got to give yourself a treat.	44:10
Kisha Turner	Yeah. We're looking forward to it. Were there sororities and fraternities on your campus?	44:15
Arthur Mae Lawson	Mm—hmm.	44:20
Kisha Turner	Were either of you involved with—	44:21
Leon Edward Lawson	I was not.	44:23
Arthur Mae Lawson	I was for Delta Sigma Theta. So I'm a Delta.	44:25
Kisha Turner	Okay.	44:35
Arthur Mae Lawson	I pledged at Allen University.	44:35
Kisha Turner	Okay. Go ahead.	44:42
Arthur Mae Lawson	Mm—hmm.	44:42
Kisha Turner	These are really nice.	44:45
Arthur Mae Lawson	Really.	44:45
Kisha Turner	Well, you can speak about your time in Jacksonville and when you were at Allen, but do you remember the NAACP in these towns or anything they were doing?	44:47
Arthur Mae Lawson	I don't remember anything that concerned us or would come to our attention, other than we knew that they were fighting for civil rights and that they were strong and persistent and consistent. We were appreciative that they were there for us, along with other organizations fighting for a more civil situation. But anything specific at that time, I don't recall, other than the general awareness. They did encourage us to be members in the schools, to support financially and otherwise if the opportunity arose.	45:01
Kisha Turner	So did people generally follow, if you could, what was going on?	45:48
Arthur Mae Lawson	Yes.	45:53
Kisha Turner	Where'd you get your news? I mean where did you —	45:54
Arthur Mae Lawson	Our teachers were very, because they were Black, they were concerned about the situation in America at the time, and so they would keep us abreast. We would discuss current events, and they would philosophize And clarify as to what it meant then and what it would mean in the future, the pros and the cons. We would even discuss current events in social science activities.	46:00
Arthur Mae Lawson	Our dean of women was very strong. She'd have meetings in the dorm on a weekly basis. We'd have a dorm meeting, and she would update us on what was going on in the country because so many times at that time concentration would be around your classwork. You didn't have time or pay attention to — Nor was television even, we had it, but we didn't spend a lot—	46:31

Arthur Mae Lawson	— purpose the dean of women felt responsible, not only for our cultural development, our personal development, but living in a world bigger than the school and that we would be going into.	0:01
Kisha Turner	By the time you got to college, you did get some kind of introduction?	0:18
Arthur Mae Lawson	Yes. Awareness.	0:23
Kisha Turner	Yeah. Awareness.	0:23
Arthur Mae Lawson	And staying abreast to the current issues and things that were going on around us, and how it would impact us.	0:26
Kisha Turner	How did you get involved in the ministry?	0:36
Arthur Mae Lawson	My father was an AME minister, African Methodist Episcopal pastor. My mother was an evangelist in later years. My father was a pastor for about 20 years. We grew up in an African Methodist church from little ones. We were in Sunday school, [indistinct 00:01:04], choir, anything missionary, junior missionaries, and we were always encouraged to participate to the fullest. My mother said, "If you're going to do anything, do it to the best of your ability. Prepare for it."	0:38
Arthur Mae Lawson	We had Monday or Sunday afternoon, we would be introduced to the Sunday school lesson for the next Sunday by our parents. Then all during the week, whatever was a prescribed — Devotional readings were Monday night, Tuesday night, every night in the week, we were to read and discuss at dinner, that portion, how it applied to the subject, how it applied to our lives.	1:16
Arthur Mae Lawson	My vocation was one of a sense of vocation, more than an actual call, that was some dramatic, "I am under the covenant", so to speak, because my father and my mother were in the ministry. My father's grandfather was a circuit preacher in Reedsville area, and his father before him, my father has a brother and other members like nephews who were in the ministry, it seems that you do what you are acclimated to in the area you were born and bred in the briar patch. You know, the briar patch.	1:42
Arthur Mae Lawson	Our life was geared around a religious style and Christianity, in particular, and so as we grew and developed, and had the opportunity, we participated in ministry of various kinds. I say we as a family. My mother died in '79, my father died — I even had a brother to go into the ministry. He transferred into the Muslim business, an organization. They were in New York for some 16 years working, so he got acclimated to that and went into that.	2:24
Arthur Mae Lawson	Then he came out of the United Methodists and into Muslim but my father died in '81, after mom died in '79. I've had this strong urge to participate in the ministry, because of my exposure with them and the immediate gratification of serving people, so in '84, I accepted the call to my strong conviction of avocation, to serve in the background.	2:55
Arthur Mae Lawson	Mostly my father, even though, he had a church, he served people in the community. He went to people's home that couldn't get out, people who were maybe not even belonged to a church or children who were mainly retarded and they didn't send them to school in those days, and so in my going around with him, I saw what it meant to have people come into the home and minister. Many people would never have communion, if my father did not go to them. White, Black, made no difference. If he knew somebody was spiritually hungry for the word or for communion with God, holy communion, he would take it into the home.	3:20
Arthur Mae Lawson	The last two years, he could not talk, he died from arterial sclerosis of the right side of his brain. It was shrinking and hardening. He was a carpenter most of his life, [indistinct 00:04:07], and he had several falls from rooftops and it caused damage to the brain on the right side, and so his latter years were complications of that.	3:56
Arthur Mae Lawson	I would go with him to different places, because, physically, he was still able at the time and he could not talk, so he would give me what to do, and I'd do it for him. I got a taste of the satisfaction of helping people and providing a little hope, an uplift in their lives. I've been serving [indistinct 00:04:41] background as associate pastor after finishing at Virginia Union in '93. After I retired, I got my degree. Mama always said she did not want us to be [indistinct 00:04:54] anything.	4:17
Kisha Turner	Okay.	4:54
Arthur Mae Lawson	She wanted us to be qualified to whatever you went into. That's why they fought so hard for us to go to school. Whatever I do now, I have a confidence about it but I don't have to wonder about it, because I've been trained. Somehow I've served to help in the hospitals or help out at Maryview once a month. From the community, people in the community give one night a month, so that that hospital can have 24 hours of chaplaincy.	4:56
Arthur Mae Lawson	It's a privilege to serve there because it's a richness in every situation. I've been strengthened in the work, because of my exposure to people of all races, colors, and creeds. It's an avocation of conviction in that direction.	5:27
Kisha Turner	You pretty much grew up in it, like you were saying.	5:45
Arthur Mae Lawson	Yeah.	5:48
Kisha Turner	Do you remember encountering many women who were ministers in your [indistinct 00:05:53]?	5:48
Arthur Mae Lawson	My mother was among the few. They were rejected and still are by some denominations. You work where you can. The AME church is what we call moderately progressive when it comes to women in the ministry. Farther north had been women for several years of prominent status. We even had one woman, I don't know her name right now, who was anticipating running for the bishop at AME.	5:53
Arthur Mae Lawson	From Maryland North, the women in the ministry are running about 40, 60 men, 40% women. From Virginia South, about 10% to 12%. The farther south, they're more resistant. Due to basic misinterpretation of the cultural situation, when St. Paul was ministering, they looked at the text as is, and not considered the context and, therefore, the interpretations have been misinterpreted for today's application.	6:30
Kisha Turner	That's the text about women should be silent [indistinct 00:07:12].	7:10
Arthur Mae Lawson	Mm—hmm. There was a particular eastern culture where, as we now know, women are still sub—citizens, second—class citizens. It's based on the trends in the culture and when he spoke to them, the women were in the balcony — See, at that time, the women don't even — In today's Muslim community, the women do not sit with the men. They sit on one side, men sit on the other.	7:13
Arthur Mae Lawson	When they were speaking to the women — When they were speaking to the men about some business, the women were chattering in the balcony. He said to them, "Be quiet. Be quiet, so we can hear down here. When you get home, you can —" They may have even been talking about what they were talking about in the meeting, but it was distracting and disturbing to the session, and so when they looked at this text, they [indistinct 00:08:03] try to pull one out and use that and describe the whole thing, so there are many activities that show Paul had many women. In those times, churches were in the homes and Phoebe and [indistinct 00:08:16] and any number of — You could go down through the list who worked as ministers.	7:39
Arthur Mae Lawson	In fact, Jesus' strongest supporters were women. The list of women in the 120 disciples outnumber the men by far. Even though, the 12 main disciples were men. The disciples were a combination —	8:23
Arthur Mae Lawson	The church is growing in that regard. A lot of education is making a difference, and teaching making a difference. We are learning to apply based on the background rather than using cold, hard — Like the fundamentalism where the word is literally never disputed, no matter what it is.	8:39
Kisha Turner	Do you think it has certain just social habits.	9:00
Arthur Mae Lawson	Yeah. That's right. That's right. You get used to something and changes are hard to make, but it's coming — I was in North Carolina, I have AME relatives in North Carolina and the western North Carolina was even more resistant but now it's beginning to filter throughout, and they're finding that women make great administrators, because of the basic nature of the women personality and makeup. That is a — Balance in the overall ministry is better, because we have a balancing nature.	9:06
Kisha Turner	How did your father feel about it?	9:45
Arthur Mae Lawson	My father was a very progressive man. Very. My father was a man ahead of his time. He finished fifth grade. Six months out of school a year, and the rest of the year was in tobacco. He was able to educate himself. He did quite well. He was a brilliant man.	9:47
Kisha Turner	He never objected to your mother?	10:12
Arthur Mae Lawson	No. No. He encouraged her.	10:12
Kisha Turner	Do you know Katie Cannon?	10:16
Arthur Mae Lawson	Cannon? Yes. Mm—hmm. Yeah.	10:18
Kisha Turner	I'm working with her [indistinct 00:10:27].	10:26
Arthur Mae Lawson	Great.	10:26
Kisha Turner	You were an elementary school teacher back in this area.	10:34
Arthur Mae Lawson	Right here.	10:37
Kisha Turner	Okay.	10:39
Arthur Mae Lawson	Seatack School is the — I guess you heard a lot about Seatack.	10:39
Kisha Turner	A little. Can you tell us about Seatack?	10:42
Arthur Mae Lawson	A little bit? I can.	10:42
Kisha Turner	Miss [indistinct 00:10:46] told us about the origin.	10:45
Arthur Mae Lawson	Yeah.	10:49
Kisha Turner	Of the name.	10:51
Arthur Mae Lawson	Well, of course, Seatack — At that time, the ocean and the swampland led up to that community. In other words, this light here, the very next light is the Seatack light. Back in those days, that was the farthest point that the cannons would reach England from the British ships in the Revolutionary War, 1813.	10:51
Arthur Mae Lawson	That was the line that they would [indistinct 00:11:19] no houses, nothing but sand and swampland and the period of the 100 years, it's filled in, so that people can live and build in that region right on up to Atlantic Avenue now but they called that — When the cannons were blasted from the ships, they called that port that it land, Sea attack. As the years went by, it became Seatack. Then they left out part of it and meshed it into one word. Seatack instead of sea attack community. It's the Seatack community.	11:15
Arthur Mae Lawson	The school that is there is a consolidation of three Black schools in the city, of Princess Anne County at that time. I spoke about Little Oceania University, Great Neck had a little one—room schoolhouse, Seatack had a little one—room schoolhouse, and [indistinct 00:12:18] and all of her people, her cousins, the Morgan families, all that property belonged to all Miss Houston's cousins, got together and turned Big Peach Orchard where the school is now to — Well, they didn't turn it over to the city. They sold it to the Black community.	11:58
Kisha Turner	Okay.	12:32
Arthur Mae Lawson	Who had sold pies and dinners and cakes for years to accumulate some money to match what the school board would give them in order to build a school for the Black community, consolidating Seatack — Even London Bridge had a little one—room school. Oceania.	12:33
Arthur Mae Lawson	When they built that, it was 13 rooms, one little strip and it had an office and basics and a few classrooms. As time went on, they added more wings, so to speak. When I went there, what was it? '59, February. I worked — My first check for a month was $325. I thought I had gotten into money, to help my husband and I raise these six children of ours.	12:51
Arthur Mae Lawson	From there, I taught from '59 until about — For seven years. Then I took a sabbatical leave and got my masters degree at Old Dominion University, I got it in administration, because I wanted to be prepared, because we were integrating, be prepared for whatever faced us in the future.	13:21
Arthur Mae Lawson	That would make that about, what? '59? '60? '69. Not quite '70. Anyway, we integrated in that time and I also wanted to be able to expend myself mentally after I was done physically, and so teaching in the classroom is very physically draining at the primary level and that's all day, full—time. You never let up. I said, "Later on, I'm not going to feel like teaching primary level" and I wanted to be prepared to work in some other area, so then I got my masters.	13:44
Arthur Mae Lawson	It wasn't long after that, I was put into an integrated school. After I got my masters, I was put into Windsor Woods Elementary School as a pre—school teacher, primary. I had a kindergarten class there. A year after that, they called me to come down to Courthouse and help integrate the school community. They call it the homeschool coordinator.	14:21
Arthur Mae Lawson	I went throughout the southern region of our city in Blackwater and all these farm areas where people are very resistant to their children going to school with Black children, so I was in the homes and talking to the parents and trying to put out fires where there may be of relationships and their child was put beside a Black child in the lunchroom or if a Black child looked at a — If a Black boy looked at a White girl and she came home and said, "He said something to me", to deal with a settling their feelings of being with the Black people.	14:43
Kisha Turner	You had to go and talk to these White families?	15:21
Arthur Mae Lawson	I had to go to these White families in their homes, sit down with them, and talk them into settling down with all people, "You got to watch out for your children", "They can talk to me." I was accessible to students to come in and talk to me if they felt like anything was not — If they were uncomfortable about anything, whether it was a Black teacher or a Black bus driver or anybody.	15:23
Arthur Mae Lawson	We were mediators really and negotiators to try to keep the school system integration fairly without too much fire, and so because the home school coordinators — I was the first one in the state, they carried the program throughout the state to help integrate the communities. It was very successful, to help them — Better to nip it in the bud than for it to get full—blown, so that was the purpose of that.	15:44
Arthur Mae Lawson	Then after that, I became an assistant principal for a couple of years, and then I was a principal for 20 years.	16:12
Kisha Turner	What kind of reactions or responses did you get from White families?	16:18
Arthur Mae Lawson	Some were resistant to the hilt. Some were cooperative. I found that the best thing to do was to find a person in a particular community who was like a mediator.	16:22
Kisha Turner	Okay.	16:35
Arthur Mae Lawson	And let them do the groundwork. I kind of worked with key people who could settle somebody down who was a redneck, who was a, "I don't want my child in no classroom. I don't want that Black teacher teaching my child", that kind of thing.	16:36
Arthur Mae Lawson	People worked together. They found out that it didn't rub off on them, and that they weren't going to kill them and jump on them or bite them or cut them or whatever, that they were people too, and that the families would be happy to work with them if they worked with the families. It was interesting.	16:52
Kisha Turner	Did you — I was just wondering. Did you ever encounter any Black families that didn't [indistinct 00:17:15].	17:09
Arthur Mae Lawson	Not as many as the other way around. In fact, we were so hungry for some equal opportunities that we sacrificed our best qualities. We lost our best teachers out of our schools. We found out later on that they didn't show their resistance to teachers who weren't too particular about teaching our children, but they ignored them and caused them to not have confidence in themselves.	17:14
Arthur Mae Lawson	They would sit through a year — If the child was a bit playful and not attentive, he could sit through a year and not achieve. Some of our best teachers would have caught that earlier and [indistinct 00:17:55] with the parents so their child wouldn't lose a whole year.	17:45
Kisha Turner	Did you — We've heard about the Norfolk 17. Do you know much about that or did you have any similar things in this city?	17:59
Arthur Mae Lawson	I think that's why Dr. Brickell, EE Brickell is a very unique personality. He is a Christian himself, and he loves people. He's a people person. He wanted us to make the transition without all that negative and —	18:09
Kisha Turner	It was after Norfolk?	18:27
Arthur Mae Lawson	That's right.	18:28
Kisha Turner	That you began [indistinct 00:18:29].	18:29
Arthur Mae Lawson	Yeah. In other words, Norfolk being more Black — See, the Caucasians can handle situations when they're in the majority but when they're in the minority, or near minority, they become a little insecure. We are very much the minority in Virginia Beach. We're 13% at the most of a population of about 450,000.	18:30
Arthur Mae Lawson	Brickell knew that and he tried to come up with a program such as a home school coordinator to keep out the fire, or keep down the fires, and so only in pockets, like Seatack, that was the hardest part, because Seatack is majority Black, and the Seatack school was Black, so we were [indistinct 00:19:12] because they would bring in poor people from a poor pocket of Caucasians down here to Seatack. They didn't bother the wealthy Whites. They picked on the poor Whites and put them into our school, and took out our Black children and sent them to three or four schools all around us, so that it was a majority, 60% White, and 40% Black, at the original Black school.	18:52
Arthur Mae Lawson	That was a problem but by us getting — They didn't integrate all of them at one time. It was a gradual thing. Courthouse was the very first, because it was right there, at the Courthouse complex. The school board was right there. They could come right in. They monitored us very closely and then they — Everywhere they made another school integration, they put a home school coordinator, I had to setup the whole program, so that they had to go by what I did, objectives and so forth, so they just moved it around from school to school, and we ended up in the school system with maybe seven or eight in pockets where it was really dire, or they thought major problems might surface with the communities.	19:40
Kisha Turner	What's the kind of relationship between the Black community in Virginia Beach and out in Norfolk? Was there much kind of communication or just aid, mutual aid? [indistinct 00:20:38].	20:25
Arthur Mae Lawson	Yeah. I think what happened was the colleges got into it. Norfolk State College was a tremendous asset to the Norfolk communities and the school board there. They were helpful. We had a lot of people out in the school system who are from, finished at Norfolk State, [indistinct 00:20:55] last year.	20:38
Arthur Mae Lawson	They got into the school. They worked with the teachers. Old Dominion got into the schools, because they crossed campus activities even then, and worked with the community, helped to get us to setup guidelines. It wasn't so much Norfolk community parents helping us as it was the colleges.	20:57
Kisha Turner	Okay. Setup a connection between two communities?	21:15
Arthur Mae Lawson	That's right. As I say, our problem was a problem but not as dire as Norfolk with the majority Black.	21:17
Kisha Turner	I know Hampton is a little further out but were they involved?	21:25
Arthur Mae Lawson	They were — Hampton, Newport News, Williamsburg worked together, very closely, and the colleges there, Hampton University, even the community colleges got into it and provided education and support and helped them to deal with it.	21:28
Kisha Turner	That's kind of a separate —	21:47
Arthur Mae Lawson	Very basically. They're trying to call us now — Instead of Tidewater, they're naming us Hampton Roads to try to tie in the peninsula, but it's slow.	21:49
Kisha Turner	Because of the water?	22:04
Arthur Mae Lawson	Yes. It's a division there. Even though, we have the tunnels, there's still almost another entity. Now we share our experiences and we've had interrelationships with school systems, but they are pretty much aside from us and Suffolk, they're not that far from us but they're very independent.	22:04
Kisha Turner	Okay. Thank you.	22:21

Item Info

Title:

Arthur Lawson (primary interviewee) and Leon Lawson interview recording, 1995 July 20

Date:

July 20, 1995

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Contributor:

Turner, Kisha

Description:

Name: Arthur Mae Lawson; Date of birth: 1934-09-02; Place of birth: Reidsville, NC; Occupation(s): educator; teacher; minister; Residence: Virginia Beach, VA. Name: Leon Edward Lawson; Date of birth: 1930-11-27; Place of birth: Raleigh, NC; Occupation(s): public service; Dept. of Transportation; Residence: Virginia Beach, VA
Informant ID: 997; Informant ID: 998; Interviewed by: Kisha Turner and Blair Murphy.

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English

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Behind the Veil

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Behind the Veil: Documenting African American Life in the Jim Crow South interviews, photographs, and project records, circa 1864-2011, bulk 1990-2004

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The David M. Rubenstein Rare Book and Manuscript Library acquired the Records of the Behind the Veil Oral History Project from the Duke University Center for Documentary Studies in 1997, 1998, 2000, and 2002.

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Copyright for content created by the Behind the Veil project is held by Duke University and made available to the public using a Creative Commons Attribution / Non-commercial (CC-BY-NC) license.

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behindtheveil
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Arthur Lawson (primary interviewee) and Leon Lawson interview recording, 1995 July 20

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Item Info

1. Arthur Lawson and Leon Lawson administrative file, 1995

John Hope Franklin Research Center

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Arthur Lawson (primary interviewee) and Leon Lawson interview recording, 1995 July 20

Transcript

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John Hope Franklin Research Center

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