Ethel Kemp interview recording, 1994 August 11

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Ethel McFadden Kemp	Saw a record of a picnic that they had in Greenwood, and I remembered when they had that picnic, although I was five years old, because I was at that picnic. And the first time I thought all grown people told the truth, I thought children had to tell untruth to keep from getting a beating. But we went to this picnic, the people in the neighborhood, they would not go, they didn't send the children, but they would wait until the teachers and they'd always leave things there. And they would come with pens and things, and give them that food.	0:01
Ethel McFadden Kemp	But my mother would let us go because it's not too far from our house. And we had lemonade anytime we wanted it, but we didn't have ice cream anytime we wanted it. And when they were serving us some lemonade, my brother said my sister and I would like to have some ice cream. The woman told us all the ice cream gone. But then there was a boy, they didn't have flying [indistinct 00;00:01:40], they had a stump where they put a board across, and you could get on that and someone give you a push, and that board would go around, and around around, and around. And a little boy fell, and his parents was not there, and he was crying. They picked him up, they was trying to do everything to console him, and they took him and gave him some ice cream. And we standing up there looking.	0:47
Stacey Scales	This is a little White boy?	1:44
Ethel McFadden Kemp	No, all the people Black. This was Booker T. Washington's last picnic that I went to.	1:46
Stacey Scales	You remember him?	1:52
Ethel McFadden Kemp	I was five. Your memory start at four and a half. And I remember that well and I remember that I found out that grown people didn't tell the truth either. That's one thing I found out about it because they didn't tell the truth. And my brother said, "They said they didn't have any more ice cream." I said, "I heard them," because he was asking them for the two of us. But we were the children supposed to drink lemonade and not eat the ice cream. And this was Booker T. Washington and the teachers who were on the campus, they had a picnic every year and it was having it for the neighborhood. But the only thing they could do for those people was leave their food there because they didn't come. But soon as they left, they'd be running.	2:05
Stacey Scales	Do you remember Lewis Adams?	2:49
Ethel McFadden Kemp	Lewis Adams?	2:53
Stacey Scales	Yeah.	2:54
Ethel McFadden Kemp	I don't know Lewis Adams.	2:54
Stacey Scales	He was working at Tuskegee too.	2:56
Ethel McFadden Kemp	Well maybe he was working there after we left.	2:59
Stacey Scales	How was it working at Tuskegee? I mean living in Tuskegee during that time?	3:02
Ethel McFadden Kemp	We lived there about six years because I was nine months old when we went there. I had a brother and sister attending there and so quite natural, we knew the people on the campus. We're just down the hill from the campus and we knew just about everything that was going on.	3:07
Stacey Scales	Really? How was the relationship between the people on the campus and the [indistinct 00:03:38]?	3:29
Ethel McFadden Kemp	Well, what they did, that was one thing that they tried to do, they tried to work with the people in the community. And when Booker T. Washington would travel, he'd get clothes, and get things, and beg, and they would send these things to Tuskegee. They would even send clothing, the old clothing but they would be good, bedding and anything, furniture. But the teachers and the people who was close to the teachers had a chance to go through everything first to get what they wanted for their children and for them.	3:37
Ethel McFadden Kemp	Then I had a sister attending there and those teenagers who were there, they gave them a chance to go through and get what they wanted, and what they wanted for the brothers and sisters. Then they took loads and loads of those clothing and thing, and put them in that Greenwood area where they had the picnics. That's when the other people would come and get theirs, but they would be all picked over. I'd have some nice dresses and some of those girls that were around with me didn't.	4:23
Stacey Scales	How were you able to have nice dresses?	5:02
Ethel McFadden Kemp	My sister was going to school there and when you went to school there, they considered the students, especially those who were close by and would work. You had to work a day and then go to school a day, along in those days.	5:04
Stacey Scales	Do you remember George Washington Carver?	5:35
Ethel McFadden Kemp	I've heard of that name. But let me tell you, we left Tuskegee, I think Booker T. Washington died the next year. That's why I was at his last picnic.	5:35
Stacey Scales	Right.	5:45
Ethel McFadden Kemp	And that was 1915.	5:47
Stacey Scales	Did you move here after that?	5:49
Ethel McFadden Kemp	No, my father was a minister and he was a person who liked to travel, so we went many places. We stayed many places in Alabama, then he came back to Florida and we was at West Florida, we stayed there. And when he stopped here, he was on his way somewhere on West Palm Beach, but he stopped to work a little while, and he like here and he stayed, so he sent for us. That was in 1921. We did all our traveling around before 1921.	5:51
Stacey Scales	How was it traveling during that time? During the time of Jim Crow where you couldn't use public facilities.	6:37
Ethel McFadden Kemp	We were on the train and you didn't know anything about Jim Crow, you just knew the Colored people go on this course, the White go on this course. So you went on the course you wanted to go on and you didn't feel like they were getting better than you. This is what you knew and you knew that it was okay because here's one thing that you knew, you knew the White people was very, very good, and you knew they went to some homes and the people went to their homes. You knew they were very, very good because you were very, very close to them. Now, we were always respected by the White people because we were Reverend MacVan's children and MacVan was okay. And I mentioned this once, they was going down saying how people was treated. People was treated good and the best way they knew.	6:48
Ethel McFadden Kemp	See, close to slavery the people knew that they came here as slaves. They knew now you free and they knew that when their grandparents were slaved, the grandparents was very close to the White people, especially those who worked in the house and in their homes. And so although they had segregation, you didn't see it because this is what your parents was accustomed to, those who were doing slavery and who was freed. We had a lot of people, like I had uncles who was slaved. All right, when they freed, they gave almost 40 acres of land and that mule, then they was able to work and the people respected them. Now, those people who was doing what some of the people doing now was the one who was not respected. Those who did not want to work, those who did not want to do this.	8:08
Ethel McFadden Kemp	But we were respected because my people was, people who worked, they did not steal, did not do this. And I told in a class, they was talking about precious, and this teacher was asking different people, like the Chinese, and they say you've not being treated right either. And I raised my hand and I told him, and they're talking about the southern White, I told him the southern White was good to the Negroes. I said they'd come when they was sick, they'd bring them food if they thought they were hungry, and they helped them with their children. And they would come to your house, and sit down at your table, and eat with you, but they didn't want another White person to know it. He told me I was precious. But they did.	9:17
Stacey Scales	Did your uncles, grandparents, or aunts, or anyone ever tell stories of slavery, how things were?	10:34
Ethel McFadden Kemp	Well, now but they did, I had a grandfather, I think it was from Sherman Army, one of those came down, and he decided to help them because he knew how to tear the backs off the barns and let the corn roll out. He knew how to help destroy, so he went with them, just enjoying himself, and he was the one they had because he could do it so fast to tap the barns, scatter everything, and the others doing everything they could. Then he wanted to come back home to his family and he told them, "I'm going and getting my family, but I'm going travel but I want my family to be nearby." And they say, "Honor bright." If he said that, it meant he would be back. He said "honor bright", but he went back to his family and start doing the work he was doing.	10:42
Ethel McFadden Kemp	Consequently, when slavery ended, he was one of the first to get the 40 acres of land, that mule, because he was back there and acted like he wasn't wanting to go and get with those other folks, and yet he had worked with them. And some of the money from that 40 acres was in the building of this house from my grandfather's estate. And the reason it happened so late, he had sons and daughters, and when his son would get married, they'd get the together before the wedding and build a home farm. And when they got married, they went into the home. But he didn't do that for his daughters. He felt that the male should look after the male and the female side of the family. They should be taken care of by their in-laws. That's the way they felt.	11:46
Ethel McFadden Kemp	So each brother had what the sisters thought was their fair share of the land. So when they get ready to sell and divide it, the brothers wanted equal share so they wouldn't go through with it. But the last time some of the brothers was dead, but the children had to have the same share that those sisters got that were still living. And for that reason, I think when they settled, it was in 1921 when we was building this house, and so some of the money that my mother received, my father came and just bought all these lots in here. He sold all but from Wahnish Way to that ditch. He sold all of it before he died. But some of that money went into that.	12:55
Stacey Scales	Did your uncles have any stories about slavery?	13:53
Ethel McFadden Kemp	Did they have any what?	13:56
Stacey Scales	Stories or experiences?	13:57
Ethel McFadden Kemp	My uncles were those close-knit families where the brothers and sisters would stay together, but the brothers going to be together. They were in North Carolina and they got into turpentine business. They left North Carolina. You have pine trees, that's where you get your turpentine from. And when you get all the turpentine you can get out of that one tree, they would move to another place, and they would lease. They would look at the pine trees, they'd find out the owners, and they would lease that property from the owners. Then they would put up buildings and go out getting people to come to work for them.	14:00
Ethel McFadden Kemp	And they were really businessmen in turpentine, but that caused them to go from place to place. When they give out there, they'll go to another place. But one mistake they made, there was a White family, let them know you can't trust these little banks. And they had a safe deposit and they gave him permission to use their safe. And at the end, when they were old and whatnot, and was going to get their money out the safe, those White people had used that money. Very little was left. But they had lived good and lived well. But that's the only mistake they made. They really was in business.	14:55
Stacey Scales	What did your grandparents do as a living?	15:50
Ethel McFadden Kemp	They got that 40 acres of land and a mule, they farmed. They ran that farm, and the children stayed with them a long time and helped them. But then they went on their way and they took care of our grandparents. They moved them from North Carolina.	15:54
Stacey Scales	How was the neighborhood during that time when you moved to this house?	16:15
Ethel McFadden Kemp	When we moved to this house, we had trees, all low, tall. And we had the oak trees that would grow tall, we had oak trees that would not. This was a farm, a man, was it a doctor? Dr. Barnes owned all this area in here. And he had a farm, he had people farming for him, but when he decided he didn't want to be bothered with the farm anymore, he decided to sell it to people, and you can do what you want to do with it.	16:19
Ethel McFadden Kemp	But he was looking out for FAMU, so he went on the campus and got one of the teachers, and told him, "I'm going to turn so much of this land over to you that's close to the campus so you can sell it. You know who you're selling it to," because of the campus. And even the land where Bill Perry and those, he let him sell that too. And so Mr. Jones sold the land. He sold it to teachers, mostly teachers and the people that was working on the campus, but then he would sell it to other families too. He sold to us.	17:06
Ethel McFadden Kemp	He sold to a lot of other people who were not on the campus. But I guess when some of the teachers was getting ready to build, we came in here. Because this house was the first house. The other houses that was built in that time, they've gone. We have just one house and this house is the one that was the original house, and this house was built here, and some family with children up on the hill built a house up there.	17:56
Ethel McFadden Kemp	These were the first two houses, but then the other people came along too and they bought because $35 a lot. And see, a lot of people can scrap up $35. When they bought, then when the teachers looked around, they didn't want to live around those people so they didn't build. My father had a opportunity to sell their land, he went into real estate of old age, but he sold their land to the people who couldn't buy. So this normal school subdivision wasn't like Mr. Jones had planned and wasn't like the teachers had planned, but they were not going to let these houses bring down the price of their house.	18:36
Stacey Scales	Where did you shop around here? Was there Black-owned businesses?	19:38
Ethel McFadden Kemp	Well, we had to bring that in. No, they didn't have it. Downtown was close in those days and there were some people in another area had stores, but then we didn't have buses. We had one Black cab driver. You could go anywhere you wanted to go in Tallahassee.	19:43
Stacey Scales	Do you remember his name?	20:15
Ethel McFadden Kemp	For 50 cent. Rollins. You could go anywhere you wanted to go for 50 cent. But if you walk, walking is all right. We would go downtown about three times a day if my mother went to the center and think nothing of it. Because we would go there, they had a Piggly Wiggly that sold cheap. We didn't have an AMP store but we had those other stores, and we would go there to buy some things. Run halfway, walk halfway. And we did that for years, but now it's so far away. It's so far, far away now if anyone look at me and ask me about walking downtown, it's too far. But then, you could run to town and be back in a few minutes.	20:16
Stacey Scales	So the Black businesses, you said you had to bring them, who were they brought?	21:16
Ethel McFadden Kemp	Well, the Speeds came in and they had a—and we had a store that was real close to us, a man built. You can see a area and that would look like a ditch. My brother built this home that has that brick building, a store was put there and the Bright had a store on Perry Street. Those were small stores but you can go. And let me see, they had a store named Gibbs Market. He sold everything. Then we had Nims that had a store and those was the stores we had in this area, but we did most of our shopping downtown.	21:22
Stacey Scales	Were all those stores in the same place?	22:29
Ethel McFadden Kemp	Here?	22:32
Stacey Scales	Yeah.	22:33
Ethel McFadden Kemp	No. The buildings of some of those stores are still there, like the Speeds, someone is still running the Speeds store. The Bright store, no-one running it, but I think you can find one or two of the stores still operating, the building but with different people in it. One thing what we did have, we had rabbits, we had squirrels. It was a pond down there, we had alligators. We could catch the frogs and sell them. We had a lot of natural things around here. We had wild fruit trees, all kind. And if you wanted a rabbit, all you had to do is step outside the back door. But the people cleaned that up, a group of boys, we used call them the rabbit boys, they would come and they sent the rabbits away.	22:33
Stacey Scales	Were there any cases of hangings down here?	23:51
Ethel McFadden Kemp	Any paintings?	23:51
Stacey Scales	Hangings or lynchings, Black folk.	23:51
Ethel McFadden Kemp	No. Those days, when we came here, they didn't do too much more lynching. Now, the only thing we had here in this area to happen, the pecans, there was some boys on the campus, those people planted papershell pecan trees over in our area. The squirrel planted the trees. So you had anything, the squirrels planted. We have trouble with these pecan trees now by people wanting to come pick up pecan. And the fruit trees the people had, they planted them themselves. We have apple, pear, and all the fruit trees, but there was some people lived up on the hill, they didn't plant anything. The children would come and gather yours, and the children would look in your face and let you know this God's trees.	24:01
Stacey Scales	This is God's tree.	25:11
Ethel McFadden Kemp	This God's tree.	25:11
Stacey Scales	This is Black children?	25:11
Ethel McFadden Kemp	Yes. They went on the campus around, because there was some papershell there, and these three boys, they went up in the tree to get those papershell, and there was a teacher, he graduated, I was here going to school when he graduated, but they hired him on the campus in the agricultural department. He took him a gun, these buckshots in it, and sprayed those boys in that tree to make all other children afraid to go in the tree. They had just much right to those pecans as he did. But then they didn't do that but they got into something else so they were missing. And later on, they said that they were killed in the [indistinct 00:26:13] graves. But that was the only thing, I think.	25:17
Stacey Scales	When did that happen?	26:15
Ethel McFadden Kemp	Hmm?	26:15
Stacey Scales	When did that happen?	26:15
Ethel McFadden Kemp	That happened in the 1920s. But didn't anyone say too much about it because the little boys were stealing, so wasn't too much to say about it.	26:21
Stacey Scales	Do you remember any very hard times when you didn't have much here?	26:41
Ethel McFadden Kemp	Here?	26:47
Stacey Scales	Yes.	26:47
Ethel McFadden Kemp	They had what you call a boom and the people was coming to Florida, they were spending money, they were building. They didn't do too much building around Tallahassee, but that caused students to be coming to Tallahassee. Along the time when I was in the 8th grade, we had more students when we were in the 8th and then the 9th grade than they had in the whole college division. And as long as about 1929, the people was coming from down south, and this was making money for Tallahassee. But long in 1929, in the beginning of the '30s, we had a Depression. Everything just dropped. And this was my senior year in college, Depression was still going. And we had President Lee. And to show you how it was, I had a brother in my class, one that's Alfonso, and we were very little people.	26:54
Ethel McFadden Kemp	And we went to President Lee office and we told him that our senior year, you had to board on the campus. We asked him to let one board on the campus one semester and one board on the campus the other semester. He looked at us, "What you doing in the same class?" He said, "Your senior year, you going to stay on the campus the whole year." And he would not let us do that. So I went in the boarding department and my brother stayed out because he could work and produce more for the family, and my daddy didn't believe in his daughters working, so my brother stayed out. That caused me to graduate 1933, and he graduate 1934.	28:21
Ethel McFadden Kemp	But well, President Roosevelt just closed the banks because the people was moving the money out, and that day he closed the bank, our tuition and your board was due, and my board was the only one paid because the bank caught the other people, but mine had been paid in cash. And when he closed the banks the people didn't have anything.	29:21
Stacey Scales	How did people survive and how did your family survive?	29:56
Ethel McFadden Kemp	Well, my father had so much pride. He was not going to take commodities. They set up places where you could have food, and you could go there and get food. He established a lot of organizations and one with the CC Camp, different things, the NRA, and different organizations where you could go and work. They would find work for you to do, and you could work there and get a little money. And then the food became very cheap. You could get a can of salmons for five cent. Now, the way my family survived, we really would've been able to do well and have the best of foods like the other people, but you had to sign up for it. And he belonged to, it was a group of people once upon a time that would not accept charity. And there was a lot of people in Tallahassee said they would die before they accept charity.	29:59
Stacey Scales	Wow.	31:18
Ethel McFadden Kemp	He was one, he didn't mean for any food that they were giving away to come into this house. He was not the only one like that, they just wasn't going to accept it. They were not going standing in line for food, they were not going standing in line to get the bills paid. So what he did, he owned some land in Panama City, he sold that land and enough money would come into this house. That's why couldn't but one board on the campus, enough money would come, and we had to budget and manage, and manage like that. But he never did accept anything during those hard times.	31:24
Stacey Scales	[indistinct 00:32:13].	32:10
Ethel McFadden Kemp	There were people on the campus got into this, they were the one giving out this and giving out that, and there were a couple wanted my brother to work for them. But they had him to work, Mr. A. Turner, his daughter's living in that house on the campus now, Matthews, living in the home site, and he was in the agriculture department. And he had my brother work for him the whole summer. "I'm not going to pay you during the summer before my school open, I'm going to pay your registration fee, and I'm going to buy your clothes, and just help your parents take care of you with the money you made." But he didn't do it. When school opened, he was trying to register more credit.	32:16
Stacey Scales	Really?	33:08
Ethel McFadden Kemp	Yeah, my father had to go down there and register. He never did pay him. But anyway, they were over giving out clothing to the poor, and they did give him some clothing. My father let him accept them because he said he worked for them. And that's the only clothing we had come in. We had to just do without it if we didn't have it.	33:08
Stacey Scales	Did the churches help out or any other organizations in the community?	33:36
Ethel McFadden Kemp	Well, the churches in the community, they were hit by the Depression too. To show you how hard hit someone was, they were trying to build a church. One reason we could get by, because my father was going to plant enough food for us up there near Wahnish Way with the sugarcane patch, on another area was a sweet potato, and the other was the corn. And he'd all types of vegetables, and we ate what we could and we canned the rest. This rest was canned for the winter and you had all fresh vegetables in the winter. You had those in the summer and you had those canned ones for the winter. And there was some things you could plant for the winter and still have fresh. And he made his business to have 100 hens at all time.	33:42
Stacey Scales	Really?	34:51
Ethel McFadden Kemp	And he had some roosters too, but he was determined to have 100 hens. But the ones he had was the one for meat, they wasn't the one egg-laying but there was enough eggs for us. It was enough eggs for us to go to the market and exchange the eggs for food. That was the Gibbs Market, you'd go and you would tell him how many eggs you had, then you started shopping and he would allow more for the eggs than you could get anywhere else because you were exchanged them for food. Then we had teachers on the campus would buy eggs from us. I was the one that delivered the eggs on the campus. And we got by like that.	34:51
Stacey Scales	Did any White folks ever get jealous of your family because they had so much?	35:43
Ethel McFadden Kemp	The White people living out here was in the same shape.	35:47
Stacey Scales	Oh, yes?	35:50
Ethel McFadden Kemp	Dr. Barnes. Let me put these ones down. When he sold the portion that he was going to sell, he divided it. He sold so much to Black people and so much to White people, and he separated them. The White had their area and the Black had their area. But there was some White people moved into this area because now our family became norm to them. Because I had a sister who was a nurse, and she had been a nurse for some of the family that was moving in here. Then Dr. Barnes was real close to us, and that caused the White and the Black to know us. And one time, we were the only family of children going to school. [indistinct 00:37:08].	35:56
Stacey Scales	Children going to school.	37:11
Ethel McFadden Kemp	Yes, at that time, you could go to FAMC to school or go to Lincoln High School, and that was across town. There was school at the Presbyterian church. But you had to pay for FAMC then and you had to pay for this other church. The peoples moving in here felt that they were not able to send their children to school and they didn't want them walking to Lincoln, so they didn't go. One lady taught her children, she would tell them, "There's no need to go to school. You find more educated people in the chain gang than you find any place else." But anything that she saw that she thought would help us in school, she brought it here. And then when my sister got in the 7th grade, she decided that she was going to teach the children, the Black or the White, that were not in school.	37:13
Ethel McFadden Kemp	One young lady came, she could come for us to help her, but her father didn't want it. So she had to slip here to come until she got herself where she could go. They were riding the buses where she was able to participate in another school. But the way my sister did, she just let all the children who could not go to school during the summer, they would come here, and they'd get around a dining room table, and she started teaching them. And one summer, my father was having some work done on the house, and there was a man that was working on the house, and he would look through the dining room and see Clarissa teaching.	38:33
Ethel McFadden Kemp	And he found out that she was doing this, and the people found out her mama let these children come in her house and didn't mind it. And when she was going back to school, she would let them go until the next summer. One day, he came in and he told her he was tired of going up on houses, fixing windows and things, and ask her to let him have this group, and let the parents know that he was going to take this group and teach them. So then he found one of the churches and asked if he could have school in that church. So he took the group. The parents was paying, my sister received 25 cent a week for every child she taught, and most of that went into supplies.	39:21
Stacey Scales	So she taught White and Black children?	40:20
Ethel McFadden Kemp	Yes. Some of the White would send theirs, they'd slip them in. And when he moved to the church, then the White didn't send them there. There was buses where the White could send their children to school. And then he taught those children, then another woman saw how well he was doing, and he was almost at the age where he didn't much want to be bothered, and she talked to him. She went in that same church and she taught the children. Another woman asked to help. Her name was Dorothy Nash. She became a Tooks.	40:24
Ethel McFadden Kemp	But she took them, and she decided to go to the school board and tell them how many children they were having, and that they needed someone else to help teach, and ask them if they could take that school over and support it. And they came and they checked, and they saw they had the students. So that was the beginning of Barnes Elementary School. Dr. Barnes had left space in there. He did leave spaces where if they ever wanted a school, they could build it. So that's where they built a school. And he left so much land for them they was able to put in those other things later on.	41:18
Stacey Scales	Were there places that you weren't allowed to go coming up there?	42:07
Ethel McFadden Kemp	Going to places? Like what?	42:14
Stacey Scales	Someplace for entertainment or was there a place that was segregated.	42:18
Ethel McFadden Kemp	They had entertainment. They had some of the best entertainment coming here, the Tallahassee. And they put it up in a place called Frenchtown. It wasn't like it is now, and that's where they would—you heard of Sammy Davis Jr.	42:29
Stacey Scales	Yeah.	42:55
Ethel McFadden Kemp	He was traveling with his uncle and father. They came here. They came, they had rooming houses then where any Black person could live, but he didn't investigate the rooming house, he just came and made arrangement for them to stay at the jail while they gave the performance here. So every time they would come, they'd stay at the jail.	42:56
Stacey Scales	They had rooms at the jail?	43:30
Ethel McFadden Kemp	They had room then, because you didn't have as many people going to jail as you have now. So they had room.	43:31
Stacey Scales	Did people back then ever talk about spirits and things like that?	43:31
Ethel McFadden Kemp	About what?	43:45
Stacey Scales	Spirits?	43:45
Ethel McFadden Kemp	Handsome thing. I can take you to South Carolina now and you would hear more of that. They still do that. People still, but there are some who still believe in the unseen and just certain people can see them.	43:53
Stacey Scales	In South Carolina, is there? How about here?	44:09
Ethel McFadden Kemp	In Tallahassee?	44:18
Stacey Scales	Yeah.	44:18
Ethel McFadden Kemp	You can find some people here in Tallahassee. I was trying to think of a family. We had some people, when my brother was sick in that house down there, these people came from the different agencies where they sent people to take care of them, and then we hired some other people. And one day my nephew, he didn't understand what these people were saying. And he's a doctor, he just finished med school and was taking his internship, and I went there one day, he said, "Aunt Ethel, did my grandfather die in this house?"	44:18
Ethel McFadden Kemp	And I told him, "No, the only person died in this house was on your mother's side of the family." Because you know how you think. But there was one person there said she felt the presence of my father and my mother seeing about Robert. I told her she didn't feel the presence of anyone seeing about my Robert and I let them know then, I said, "My mother died in the hospital. My father died in this house up here." But they believe in things like that, but I find more so in South Carolina than here.	45:12
Stacey Scales	How is it different in South Carolina? I'm just curious.	46:26
Ethel McFadden Kemp	What is the difference?	46:35
Stacey Scales	Yeah. Is a lot more people there that believe in it?	46:35
Ethel McFadden Kemp	Sure.	46:38

Ethel McFadden Kemp	There, and she say, "Did Grandpapa sleep in this room?" Say, "He came here and he was with me all night long."	0:01
Stacey Scales	Really?	0:13
Ethel McFadden Kemp	Say, "I just enjoyed him." Now that same niece sometimes, afterwards told me that when the spring water came, and everybody buying the spring water, they decided they could make some money off the spring water too. Because there was two springs on their property, and one was a [indistinct 00:00:35] spring, and one of her brothers had the spring, bottling, getting this water to bottle up. They were gonna purify it first, they would boil it. And they say it was some spirit didn't want them getting that water. So he came and chased her brother. Her brother could describe how he looked, chased him, and he was trying to get away from it and fell and broke his ankle. I asked her this question, I say, "When he went to the hospital, did he tell the doctor a ghost chased him?"	0:13
Ethel McFadden Kemp	"No, he didn't tell a doctor." And another incident was, I had a sister that passed, and they had this huge house. She had 13 children and they went by the fact every time a child is born, add a room, and they had all these rooms and all this antique furniture, had everything in the house, and the house was well kept. So she was going to live in the house, and her children did not want her living in that house, they wanted her to live with some of them. So I'm quite sure one night, one of her sons put on some of his father clothes and whatnot, and chased her out of that house. And she left because she said, "He doesn't want me in [indistinct 00:02:08], so he just motioned for me to leave."	1:11
Stacey Scales	Oh her father, she thought it was her father?	2:11
Ethel McFadden Kemp	Her husband, but that was no one but the son. And the rest seemed to believe it, but I know that was her son who did this, because her husband couldn't come back and get her out of that house. But she wouldn't move, but she moved after that, and she believed it. So there are a lot of people there I know still believe it. [indistinct 00:02:43], I don't see many people here but I see a few.	2:15
Stacey Scales	Okay. How did people get the news [indistinct 00:02:49] what was happening in your area?	2:45
Ethel McFadden Kemp	Well, we always had a newspaper.	2:45
Stacey Scales	What was the name of it?	2:45
Ethel McFadden Kemp	Hmm?	2:45
Stacey Scales	What was the name of it?	2:45
Ethel McFadden Kemp	Well, I would say beginning of 1921, [indistinct 00:02:59].	2:49
Stacey Scales	You always kept the older pictures from coming up?	2:49
Ethel McFadden Kemp	No, we keep the pictures, we kept everything.	2:49
Stacey Scales	Oh, I was asking about the newspaper, [indistinct 00:03:00]?	2:58
Ethel McFadden Kemp	We had, I'm bad with the names, the Dillon Democrat, [indistinct 00:03:46] have now. We had the Florida's Time Union that came in from out of town, and there was a paper on [indistinct 00:03:58] you ever heard of called a Grit. My brother sold that.	3:00
Stacey Scales	Oh yeah?	4:02
Ethel McFadden Kemp	Mm-hmm. So we, well, surrounded by the news, when we were here and at Tuskegee.	4:03
Stacey Scales	What was the news at Tuskegee?	4:11
Ethel McFadden Kemp	I don't remember the name of the newspaper, but I know we was getting it.	4:16
Stacey Scales	Was it much different moving in here, from living there?	4:21
Ethel McFadden Kemp	I don't remember too much about, but when we moved here, we moved from a place they called, I know you have never heard about it, Baker in Crestview. We lived in that area for a long time, and we came from there here, and it was a difference because we had a college here, and we had a better high school here, then better church.	4:30
Stacey Scales	Did you ever work? Do you remember, I mean, from high school or right after that? Do you remember your first job?	5:00
Ethel McFadden Kemp	My first job was my senior year, it was working in the dean's office. My father would not allow us to work.	5:13
Stacey Scales	So how'd you get that job, if he didn't allow you to work?	5:25
Ethel McFadden Kemp	He didn't mind me doing that on the campus, and the dean of women, Ms. McGwen, gave me that job. I didn't even ask for it, but she called me one day, and they needed someone.	5:29
Stacey Scales	How much did you make?	5:45
Ethel McFadden Kemp	My room and board was $14 a month, and so I made $4. They'd had to put the 10 [indistinct 00:06:11]. And one time I forgot to sign the payroll, and they deducted $1.	5:52
Stacey Scales	Oh yeah?	6:25
Ethel McFadden Kemp	Well yeah, they didn't mean for you to forget to sign the payroll, but it was a group of us did at the same time. So they deducted $1, and I needed to get another dollar from a board.	6:25
Stacey Scales	Did your brothers work outside of school?	6:38
Ethel McFadden Kemp	Yes, my oldest brother worked. He worked at FSU, and he worked over there on that campus, he worked downtown in the stores. He would go on and work anyway, but Robert didn't, he didn't work.	6:42
Stacey Scales	Okay. Is there anything else you'd like to share?	7:12
Ethel McFadden Kemp	It was one thing about my father, he felt, sometime when children work, they think they're taking care of themselves, and is, if you're taking care of yourself, you're taking care of yourself. And sometime they would drop out of school, so what he wanted us to do, and we did, play in your own backyard, school, home, and church. And we were strangers in the street.	7:18
Stacey Scales	How did you feel about the separate water fountains?	8:00
Ethel McFadden Kemp	When you growing up in something, and you haven't thought too much about it, you just go on with it, you think that's all right. Just like, now when you came into the rural, they had a place for you to drink, a place for you to eat. That's all you knew, and there was no resentment. I remember at Lakeland, we went down to the city hall and some people were, they was visiting, and they were from one of the northern states, and they had a little girl. And the girl went and drank some water from the fountain, they said "White," she drank that water?" Then she went going over there to the other one, and her mother grabbed her and she said, "I tasted that White water. I want to see what this Colored water taste like." And she thought it was colored, and she turned it on. She said, "It's not colored but I wanted to drink it." They had a time those city officials looked at us and I looked at them, and I just laughed, how they was trying to pull the girl away.	8:06
Stacey Scales	Oh they were trying to pull the girl away.	9:38
Ethel McFadden Kemp	Mm-hmm, her parents, because she wasn't supposed to drink out of that water.	9:39
Stacey Scales	What did the city officials do?	9:43
Ethel McFadden Kemp	They didn't know what to do. She wanted to taste that Colored water. Now there was one man came down, he really wanted to see how the Black people was treated. So he came because he knew the only thing he had to do is say, "I'm Black." And he was going to the restroom, and someone pointed out to him, "That's Colored up there, don't see that Colored?" He said, "I'm going to the right place." That meant he was Colored. He traveled as a Black man to really find out how they was treated, and he.	9:47
Stacey Scales	You met him? You knew this man?	10:32
Ethel McFadden Kemp	He came back when they was working on, they hadn't quite started working on desegregation. I belonged to a club that they would meet with, and he came back, he said, "All you got do is say you Black." And that was all right. And then there was one man was traveling with a traveling salesman, and the salesman got tired of having to, he could go to a hotel and he had to go to find a place for this man to stay.	10:37
Ethel McFadden Kemp	And he looked at him and he said, "No one can tell that you are Colored. So from this day on, you going be White, and you going to get the same treatment and same thing I get." And so he passed as White, and he got the same treatment. He was with this White man, no one questioned him. But before, I wonder where he thought he'd be questioned or not, but he knew where he was supposed to stay, and that's what he was doing. And he would traveled with this man as a White person, and they were in Mississippi, and he had a chance to see the lynching. He went home, and he was White no more. So yet he said, "We got to fight this." So he was one of those that worked hard with the NAACP to pass this law if anyone lynch, I think he was supposed to get $10,000, and see the—	11:14
Stacey Scales	What was his last name, do you know?	12:23
Ethel McFadden Kemp	I'd have to call someone in Detroit to get his name, because I don't remember his name. But he was in this meeting, and they would try several things. There were places in Detroit that Black people didn't go, it was like that everywhere. And so when they start breaking down, especially things that were supported by the government, and this club that we belong to, they would go out and bring back what happened. So this time, they were going to go to a restaurant, it was kind of a club that didn't serve Black people. And this White man who was an attorney took a Black woman from the meeting. His wife gave her her fur coat, they dressed her, because they coming back there. And they went, and one of the waiters told him they couldn't serve him because of her. And he said, "You going to serve us?" But see, they wouldn't go in, especially for that, they were doing just what they wanted [indistinct 00:13:45], say, "You going to serve us or you going to close."	12:26
Ethel McFadden Kemp	And so he said, "Are we going to get served or should I call the policeman, because you going to serve us." It so happened that they decided not to serve him. He said, "I'm not going to call the policeman, we'll just go." And they came back to this meeting and told what happened, so this was a group that was working, they say they working in the South, on desegregation, let us get it here. So they had that to take in, the incidents. So they were just getting all the incidents that they could make happen. So they were told that if they didn't serve Black people, they had to close. And this was the way they were finding the places, and this is the way they put [indistinct 00:14:34].	13:49
Stacey Scales	Do you remember when changes started to take place, where you can go anywhere you'd like to go?	14:35
Ethel McFadden Kemp	Where, in Detroit?	14:42
Stacey Scales	Here, in Tallahassee, when they took away the separate water fountains, those changes.	14:42
Ethel McFadden Kemp	You mean what year?	14:53
Stacey Scales	Yeah, sorry.	14:53
Ethel McFadden Kemp	I don't remember the year.	14:53
Stacey Scales	Not necessarily what year, but do you remember recognizing a difference?	14:56
Ethel McFadden Kemp	Mine was the one that I didn't get into this [indistinct 00:15:13] where I lived in Detroit for 40 years. My experience was on the train, once upon a time when you were—if you had a place where you sleep, you could ride as far as, I believe, Cincinnati, and you wouldn't have your coach anymore because they didn't allow Blacks. Blacks didn't use Pullman coming here. And then I found out you could go to bed and come on to Florida later on, but before they would make those changes. But now, have you noticed when they say that the Blacks going to be equal, it was a shift in the neighborhood? And some of the places where you equal, you don't even want to go back there yourself. If you noticed that?	15:07
Stacey Scales	Can you compare Detroit to Tallahassee how it was in the North and the South?	16:37
Ethel McFadden Kemp	Well in the North, they claim that it was a difference. But I met people in Detroit who had never seen a Black person. And when the schools, they start going to put. When I went to Detroit, there were one Black principal, and one Black assistant principal, they were in different schools. But when I left Detroit, there were in Detroit, there were all Black principals and maybe about five White. And when I left here, there were many Black principals.	16:47
Ethel McFadden Kemp	But when I came back, the majority of the principals, White. So it turned like this, you go to Detroit. In Detroit, those principals are Black. Here, the principals are White, just a few Black principals, now I saw that shift in both places. And when they were going to put the, in Detroit, you went to the school in your neighborhood, they had a school in every neighborhood. That was your school, you went to school that was close to you. For that reason, there were some schools in Detroit, nothing was attending but Black.	17:37
Ethel McFadden Kemp	And there was some schools, no one of us attending those schools, but White. So to stop that, they had to get buses to bus the children out of the neighborhood, so they'd have a mixture of schools. And after a while, the suburban that was called a country, became the suburbs. And in those schools, nothing but White. The Black in those schools would be where the children mother was working and living on premises with the children. Those were the Black you'd find. And when they decided to stop that, they decided to hire Black teachers.	18:29
Ethel McFadden Kemp	So I was sent to the school and they prepared the children for me. I could tell by the way they act, they let them know a Black teacher was coming, and some of those children had never seen a Black person. Some of the grownups had never seen a Black person. This was St. Clair Shores, when I got there that morning, so many children was coming to speak to me and they got my name, and they would tell me their names and where do they live. And even the children I was teaching at that time, it was a first grade, and I don't know where, they didn't tell them they had to come and speak to me, because they knew that I was teaching them and they were going to speak to me. Children from the high school would come, "How are you Mrs. Kemp? And they'd bring me fruit candy.	19:22
Ethel McFadden Kemp	And I had a little boy say, "I'll be glad when I get in the second grade, so I could start saying, "How are you, Mrs. Kemp?" And then the teachers, one teacher that was having a, going out to dinner together, they sent me a note and told me that they want me to be sure. And one lady sent me a note and said, "You don't attend this luncheon with us because we have them. But once per month I'm not going to play with you." But I didn't go because I had something I wanted to do, and I could go next door and get a lunch and be back and do what I wanted to do.	20:40
Stacey Scales	How did you feel?	21:22
Ethel McFadden Kemp	I felt good. And they sent me letters and letters and letters. So finally, one teacher came to me and told me, "Please come on and go to lunch with me?" But she had a reason, she was taking courses at Wayne State, and she had met a man that was finishing his doctorate degree, but he was from Africa. And she knew these people, the sister was so crazy about me, even all of them, and then the family and all, was so crazy about me. She wanted me to start going places with her because she was going to shock them, and she was glad that they accepted me. So when she decided to tell her parents she was going to marry, and who she was going to marry, they wouldn't have it.	21:25
Stacey Scales	Who was she going to marry?	22:26
Ethel McFadden Kemp	She was going to marry this Africa.	22:29
Stacey Scales	Did she marry him?	22:32
Ethel McFadden Kemp	She sure did, because they accepted me.	22:33
Stacey Scales	So [indistinct 00:22:37] for?	22:36
Ethel McFadden Kemp	All the teachers. If they're so crazy about me, why can't they accept? I think, I can't think of the name. Why couldn't they accept him?	22:36
Stacey Scales	So African-Americans and Africans, they considered [indistinct 00:22:54] same?	22:50
Ethel McFadden Kemp	He was from Africa, and in Michigan at that time, they didn't allow Africans to live there. You could come to school, when you get your doctorate, you had to work with the people, but as soon as you graduated, you left Michigan. So she had to leave, they had to go to Canada. Canada accepted anyone this right.	22:55
Stacey Scales	So did they look at you and the African as being, I guess, the same?	23:20
Ethel McFadden Kemp	Well now, let me tell you about the Africa. We were having a meeting one night, a night meeting, he lived in, he was at Wayne State University. I didn't live too far from Wayne State, and she had arranged for him to ride back with me. And when I went in there, I spoke to him, he looked at me, but he was real friendly with other people. He looked at me, he said, "How are you?" very cold. And I said, "You're supposed to ride back with me," he said, "I have to see what Kathleen has decided." He didn't fool with me, not one bit. It was just like I didn't exist. But he was friendly with all the others, and I'm the only Black one there, and he was the only Black one.	23:25
Ethel McFadden Kemp	But that's what happened. And she had to postpone her, she postponed the wedding. Then one day she told her mother, "I hope you and Daddy will feel all right about me getting married one day." The mother said, "I never will." So she went on and had this wedding, had a big wedding in her church, and the people came, but the father would not walk down the aisle with her, and they did not accept it.	24:23
Ethel McFadden Kemp	And in my room, I had a 13-year-old girl, they serve your coffee. And that was something I was not used to, and I just put my coffee over there. And these children would be the one that served the teachers before lunch time, by midway. And she was the one that checked my room to see that it was neat, and anything I wanted someone to do, I could call on her. And she was there checking the room, and her father came there, and this man name was Winston. His father came, and he was telling me in her presence that he hated that this father didn't walk down the aisle with his daughter. And he said, "Another thing I hate, you ignored the wedding." And then he said, "If my daughter was marrying a Black man, and he's getting his doctorate degree, and he was decent," said, "I would just be happy, and I would walk down the aisle with her." She looked at him, she was 13.	25:03
Stacey Scales	Okay, well, [indistinct 00:26:28].	26:22
Ethel McFadden Kemp	So you really couldn't see too much difference because the White would live in. Of course, there was White and Black lived in the same neighborhood.	26:29
Stacey Scales	I don't have any more questions. If you had anything you wanted to add, [indistinct 00:26:49] okay.	26:45
Ethel McFadden Kemp	Now you were working in the archives for this summer?	26:52
Stacey Scales	Yes, ma'am.	26:55
Ethel McFadden Kemp	Only?	26:55
Stacey Scales	Yes. [indistinct 00:27:00].	26:55
Ethel McFadden Kemp	He lived, his house was behind the dormitory where his daughter was coming to live. Yes, she had to board her senior year. And her house was just, the backyard of her house came up to the dormitory she was living in, and she had to board. And the children, her classmate, didn't see why she wouldn't go in the dining room to eat. And her mother had all that home cooked food, she told them she was paying for.	27:11
Stacey Scales	So how was the university and in the campus back then, how was the relationship between—	27:42
Ethel McFadden Kemp	Well, then it was just a trail, [indistinct 00:27:56], was a trail. You know that last building they had of athletic building? That was in a field, it was a fence then, and that was a field. And the people who was teaching agriculture, some of them didn't want you going through that field, but everybody went through anyway. And we had a teacher living in this area [indistinct 00:28:21] field. This is [indistinct 00:28:23], now the teachers most of them came here, was coming because of us, because the other people were not in school. We were very close to our teachers.	27:43
Ethel McFadden Kemp	One year, I had pneumonia, I gave it to myself so I didn't complain about it too much. But it was a kind that you live, at that ninth day, you're going either live or die, you'd go through the crisis. And some of my teachers came down. But when I got to the place, I couldn't go to school but I could sit on the porch. Ms. Stood would bring the gym class, and they'd have the gym out there in the yard. Our yard was larger than that—	28:40
Stacey Scales	Pretty awesome.	29:12
Ethel McFadden Kemp	We didn't, it was a trail there, and we had to give that land to them, to the Kissimmee Street, the [indistinct 00:29:24] Kissimmee Street. And at that time, this was second street. And they would have the thing in the backyard. And this was a house where the barn boys and boys in the agricultural department lived in a barn. This was a house where the students would come.	29:14
Stacey Scales	Oh yeah?	29:42
Ethel McFadden Kemp	Because they knew nothing was happening.	29:42
Stacey Scales	Good.	29:56
Ethel McFadden Kemp	And so some of our teachers would come too, they'd go for a walk and stop by here, the place really wasn't good [indistinct 00:30:05].	29:56
Stacey Scales	So your house was almost like a part of the school, huh?	30:05
Ethel McFadden Kemp	For some of the students and some of the teachers most time. So they'd be getting off the campus, the teachers would. And then we had relatives in school up there who would be coming here, we had some living here, going to school. So I know, once I had a teacher, wanted me to be on the children's spot, and I was telling [indistinct 00:30:29] because she got to go to practice, I ain't telling that. Some of the children say [indistinct 00:30:38] where I live, he said, "I know where she lives," she say, "If you cut that off, it wouldn't be any," it was FAMC then, it wouldn't be any FAMC, he said, "So close."	30:06
Ethel McFadden Kemp	But this is why Dr. Barnes gave this teacher permission to buy, sold to them first. But then, when the teachers started building, they started building on the other side. I was [indistinct 00:31:02], you see those houses over there? Because they knew if you [indistinct 00:31:08] a house, the bag go around. According to the other house, when my brother built that house down there, it would've been worth much more if it hadn't been there, because of these other houses. When they wanted it, they sold their house [indistinct 00:31:38] money.	30:48
Stacey Scales	Did a lot of the farmers in the community go up to learn from people that—?	31:46
Ethel McFadden Kemp	They did, but not now. They had the boys, they were future farmers. They went everywhere, they even came to Detroit, had a meeting, and the agriculture, the teachers worked in the communities teaching the farmers. And long in that time, if he finished agriculture, he was going to be the principal.	31:49
Ethel McFadden Kemp	And those boys were not taking administration, not taking anything. Because you know why they end up being the principal? Because the state paid them so much, and the Congress wouldn't have much more than that to pay. See the principals had to get more than the teachers. And so if you finish at the agricultural department, and they had those students from all of those schools. They'd have a special meeting here for the future farmers all over, and all of them would come here, and they'd have a conference. And then they'd have a big picnic for everyone that lived in the area, and it really was good. But we got a president.	32:22
Ethel McFadden Kemp	One thing about the White people that we going to integrate, will step in there, and all these men that was coming here to the Future Farmers of America, and having glorious time that was out. And they had decided, they'd moved to law school to FSU, then it was going to move to agriculture. And we had a man that was a doctor who graduated from here, and they had organized at FAMU, everywhere, in different regions. And he was the president of the region that I was living in, he was in Philadelphia.	33:33
Ethel McFadden Kemp	Somebody got him worried that they was moving agriculture department to Gainesville, and he managed to get in here. He called all the doctors and all the lawyers, and one lawyer sent the cows, paid for some cows to be he sent here. Because they had just about moved, justified they [indistinct 00:34:43] moving, got the cows there. And then they bought some other things and said that Florida A&M must always have agriculture, because that was taking the [indistinct 00:34:57]. And so, they just wouldn't let them move it.	34:23
Ethel McFadden Kemp	But the only thing they having up there now, they have some land that they let the community have a garden, if I wanted to have a garden, I could have it up there.	34:59
Stacey Scales	When did it change from FAMC to FAMU?	35:13
Ethel McFadden Kemp	This was, I should know the year because a cousin of mine was the first one to get a master's degree from there. They've been trying to change it from a university, but the alumnis work so hard, and trying not to let them do it. But if they move all the cultures from here, they could. But now, what they working on, soils, and the person heading up the agriculture department are White, most of the better jobs are White, got the, and they moved to law school without talking so much about it. One student said he was there working, he needed another book. He looked up, people's packing the book. They moved it just like that.	35:18
Ethel McFadden Kemp	But they haven't been able to moved the agriculture department. So it was there, I [indistinct 00:36:15] say this [indistinct 00:36:16] hoping their name on it. Because most people [indistinct 00:36:20] saw, they got the cows away, but they couldn't get the cows this fast. And they moved hogs, they don't have any livestock, they just have goats, and those cows, I think. But the boys could come and work their way through school in agriculture. They'd be taking care of the cows, the chickens, and everything. And they raised the food for the campus, the gardening thing, some people working in the dining room [indistinct 00:37:03] get fresh things.	36:09
Ethel McFadden Kemp	Last year the food for the dining room was coming from Atlanta, they sell [indistinct 00:37:13] another company, it's [indistinct 00:37:15]. I don't know [indistinct 00:37:20]. So that's school really, they were just trying to close it down. But the alumni won't let them, but they got a, what happened where, when he needed a new president, there was one, there was a young man. The grandfather used to live behind us. And when he was a little boy, my sister was getting [indistinct 00:37:43], he was treating his cousin right? And he was a boy scout, and she said, "Nah, you are wrong. You really shouldn't be in scouting." And she was going down [indistinct 00:37:58] and I said, "What you talking about? [indistinct 00:38:01] the president of Florida A&M?" He was just teasing, but he happened to be the president of Florida A&M.	37:07
Ethel McFadden Kemp	Out of all the people, these forceful people who went, he was a choice. And the president of the nationalist A&M came and looked in his face in comfort. I mean, people were there, and told him, says, "They made you president so they could destroy this school." And that's exactly what they did. Evidently, he promised them. But now, they still not acting right because that law said it had to be equal, in the highest man of White, as Black. They made this school be a [indistinct 00:38:55] president then. They made him have his right hand as many White, as Black for the FSU, and didn't do it. And there's still not, we have some Black teachers, but not many.	38:01
Stacey Scales	I have to go, I have another [indistinct 00:39:14], wonderful talking to you.	39:14
Ethel McFadden Kemp	All right.	39:14

Item Info

Title:

Ethel Kemp interview recording, 1994 August 11

Permalink:

https://idn.duke.edu/ark:/87924/r4pz5cw4z

Date:

July 27, 1994

Creator:

Kemp, Ethel McFadden

Contributor:

Scales, Mausiki Stacey

Description:

Name: Ethel McFadden Kemp; Date of birth: 1909-09-03; Place of birth: Bay Co., FL; Occupation(s): educator; Residence: Tallahassee, FL
Informant ID: 400; Interviewed by: Stacey Scales.

Identifier:

RL00170-CS-1536
390c8d08-da48-4870-8727-37744ac30adb
behindtheveil
d8088f84-4459-4a3e-a533-f47b21696a54
ark:/87924/r4pz5cw4z
d8088f84-4459-4a3e-a533-f47b21696a54

Digital Collection:

Behind the Veil

Source Collection:

Behind the Veil: Documenting African American Life in the Jim Crow South interviews, photographs, and project records, circa 1864-2011, bulk 1990-2004

Related Resources:

See below

Location:

Format:

Language:

English

Occupation:

Educator

Provenance:

The David M. Rubenstein Rare Book and Manuscript Library acquired the Records of the Behind the Veil Oral History Project from the Duke University Center for Documentary Studies in 1997, 1998, 2000, and 2002.

Rights:

Limited Re-Use

CC BY-NC 4.0

Rights Note:

Copyright for content created by the Behind the Veil project is held by Duke University and made available to the public using a Creative Commons Attribution / Non-commercial (CC-BY-NC) license.

Series:

Type:

Sound

Sponsor:

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Ethel Kemp interview recording, 1994 August 11

Transcript

Item Info

1. Ethel Kemp administrative file, 1994

John Hope Franklin Research Center

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Transcript

Item Info

Related Items

John Hope Franklin Research Center

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