Ernest Caldwell interview recording, 1995 July 13

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Ernest Caldwell	Mr. Ernest Caldwell. That's C-A-L-D-W-E-L-L. And when I retired in Brinkley had, well, 14 [indistinct 00:00:17].	0:01
Stacey Scales	Okay. And were you born here in Brinkley?	0:16
Ernest Caldwell	No, I wasn't. I was born in Halls, Tennessee.	0:23
Stacey Scales	Halls, Tennessee?	0:26
Ernest Caldwell	Mm—hmm. And I came to Arkansas— My parents moved to Arkansas when I was three years old in the little place called Amorel, Arkansas. That's about six miles north of Blytheville, Arkansas.	0:29
Stacey Scales	Okay. So when did you come to Brinkley? Brinkley Fargo area.	0:48
Ernest Caldwell	Oh, the Brinkley Fargo area. The first time I came here was right after I finished college at AAMN college. That's in Pine Bluff. I came here to teach veterans, a veterans class, on the farm training. I received my BS degree from AAMN college, that's what it would, UAPB is what is its name is.	0:55
Stacey Scales	Okay. Right, name today.	1:26
Ernest Caldwell	Yeah. And I came here and taught veterans until the veterans program ran out, at which time I went into the regular school system and I start teaching high school science in a little place about 12 miles from here called Biscoe, Arkansas.	1:28
Stacey Scales	Okay. Biscoe, Arkansas. So growing up, who were your inspirations for you to grow?	1:53
Ernest Caldwell	Well, really and truly, my greatest inspiration was my dad.	2:07
Stacey Scales	Oh yeah.	2:14
Ernest Caldwell	My dad was a farmer and he farmed all his life. And I always wanted to be like him because he was, I'd say, a jack of all trades. He could repair shoes and cut hair, carpenter, mechanic, just any little— Plumber, whatever the case, whatever the occasion arose, he could do it. As a matter of fact, he and a neighbor built his own home. I was in service at the time and I was sending him on an allotment. And he bought his own farm and he built his house, built his barn. He put in his own plumbing. And as a matter of fact, he did all that.	2:14
Ernest Caldwell	And I always did want to be like my dad.	3:10
Stacey Scales	Right.	3:18
Ernest Caldwell	The only thing that I didn't want to do is stay on the farm all my life.	3:19
Stacey Scales	Oh no?	3:26
Ernest Caldwell	He was my inspiration so far as going to school. Yeah. I can recall at one time when I was in elementary school, little place called Amorel, Arkansas. I would try to fake sick, but he said, "No, you going to school." He only reached fourth grade. And as a matter of fact, he could out count me from the fourth grade and he could do a lot of things. And that inspired me to do better in life.	3:27
Stacey Scales	What did your mother do for a living?	4:06
Ernest Caldwell	My mother was just a housewife. She was a housewife. And they separated and when I was about eight years old and she moved to a little place called Helena, Arkansas, and he stayed right there on the farm. I can recall in his farming career instead of— There was a big plantation, more or less. And it was called the Lee Wilson Farm. And most of the persons on that farm share crop. But he didn't want to share crop. He rented.	4:08
Stacey Scales	What was the difference between—	4:53
Ernest Caldwell	Well, the difference in renting and sharecropping, at the end of the year, you gave the landowner half of what was made on that particular crop. But in renting— The reason for this is that the landowner furnished everything including— There was what is called a little— Let's see, what's the name of the little thing? Where they furnish it with grocery and everything. Yeah. And they would go and take up grocery and they had to pay for that at the end of the year. And most of the sharecroppers at the end of the year owed more than they made, which in turn made them stay right there every year.	4:54
Ernest Caldwell	And with my dad, that was one of the inspirations that I grew up liking about him. He was his own man. He rented. He had his own mules and his own cultivating equipment and the house was furnished on the land. And he paid the landowner one fourth of what was made. And he kept the three fourths. And by doing it that way, he was able to maintain and support his family and have a little money left over.	5:54
Stacey Scales	Oh, okay.	6:32
Ernest Caldwell	See, that's the difference in renting and sharecropping. Mm—hmm.	6:33
Stacey Scales	Okay. So he got a sense of independence by doing that?	6:41
Ernest Caldwell	Yeah. And I got that sense of independence from him.	6:43
Stacey Scales	So were there any other people that were doing that sort of thing on his—	6:49
Ernest Caldwell	I can venture to say that there were about three renters out of, I'd say, 50 sharecroppers. Most of them, the sharecroppers, they didn't— To me, they looked like they didn't want to have anything. Because once you were in debt to the landowner, the next year you couldn't move. You had to stay right there because you were in debt to him.	6:54
Stacey Scales	Oh, okay.	7:25
Ernest Caldwell	Yeah. Mm—hmm.	7:25
Stacey Scales	So I'm wondering, what did he do after he left that plantation?	7:29
Ernest Caldwell	Oh, he left that plantation— I tell you what happened. While I was in school— No, while I was in service, this was growing up, I was sending him an allotment and he saved up enough money and some land became available in Missouri, a little place called Wardell, Missouri. And he, with a bunch of well, I think it was about six or seven of the persons, moved and bought this whole section of land. I think it was 24 acres, his part. So that's what he settled in a little place called Wardell, Missouri. And with what he made, it was a lot of land that he had to clear up. And cut down the trees and everything. So he did that, cleared it up and did his own farm. And that was his land. And he paid so much a year to the person that he was buying the property from.	7:35
Stacey Scales	So did he ever talk about being treated unfair by any of the people that he was renting from or working with?	8:41
Ernest Caldwell	Well, in a way of speaking, yes. Let me see if I can recall an incident that pertained to that. Well, one of the things that I know existed was that to go see the landlord, he had to go in the back door. Well no, he never could go to the front. Even though he was a renter, he couldn't go to the front door. He had to come in the back and he had to address the landowner as missus all the time and had to say sir or whatever. And I can recall growing up, the little places that we had to go to, they had the colored and white signs and naturally the colored sign was in the rear of the facility and the white could go anywhere. And the little in the place when I finished high school, in Blytheville, which was six miles from Amorel, the bus station itself was segregated. In other words—	8:53
Stacey Scales	About what year was that?	10:16
Ernest Caldwell	Let me see. That was in— Oh that's been a long time. I can't— I'm trying to think now. I finished high school— Well, I moved, I finished— Well I finish out in Amorel, finished eighth grade when I was 14. So, let me see. 14.	10:25
Stacey Scales	So, that's fine. You were about 14 when that was [indistinct 00:10:58]—	10:54
Ernest Caldwell	Yeah. Mm—hmm. Yeah.	10:57
Stacey Scales	What did those signs mean to you?	11:00
Ernest Caldwell	Well, growing up my dad told me what they meant. They meant that with you being Black, you couldn't go in there and you had to go in the— Where it says "for coloreds". As a matter of fact, they had water fountains, drinking fountains. They had a sign there, colored and one for White. Yeah, I can recall that very vividly.	11:03
Stacey Scales	So you were saying that you were sending your father money and he was going to do something with that money?	11:31
Ernest Caldwell	Well, the allotment, he was taking that allotment I was sending him and help helping pay for the farm that we were on in Missouri. That's after we had moved from Amorel, as I was saying. And he eventually paid for it and he was out of debt. I never really— I will forget the time— He farm with mules all the time. But he finally saved up enough money to finally buy him a tractor. And he didn't buy— My father was pretty independent. He didn't buy that tractor on time, he bought it cash.	11:37
Stacey Scales	Oh yeah?	12:16
Ernest Caldwell	Yes. Sure did. Yeah. Most of the things he bought on, he paid cash for it. He just worked and saved his money and paid cash for it. He didn't want to be beholden to— He knew the system and he didn't want to be beholden to the system. Now what caused him to be that way? I don't know. But you know, more or less I'm the same way. I grew up being the same way. My son, he grew up being the same way.	12:16
Stacey Scales	Were your grandparents like that?	12:48
Ernest Caldwell	Yes. I didn't know too much about my grandparents because my grandparents stayed in Tennesse, yeah, [indistinct 00:12:59], Tennessee and we left when I was three years old. But my grandmother moved, did move, to Blytheville, well a little place out from Blytheville and I'd go visit her. But so far as knowing that much about them, I didn't know—	12:51
Stacey Scales	So you never really talked to your grandparents that much, would you say?	13:19
Ernest Caldwell	Not too much, no.	13:24
Stacey Scales	And you're traveling through the south, did you run into discrimination? If so, how did you handle yourself?	13:27
Ernest Caldwell	Well, I would always conduct myself in a manner of not wanting to get into trouble. I heard so— And well, I read about it and I never witnessed it, but I heard so much about hangings and all of this. But whenever I'd go into a store, I'd say yes and no sir, no ma'am. Or whatever the case might be. Even though I was called boy, I'd conduct myself in a way that I wouldn't get into trouble. I can recall when I left, one of the reasons that I left here— Well I was— I taught school, I got my master's degree from University of Arkansas. I got my BA from Pine Bluff and I had a son born in 1956. And one of the things that I said was that I didn't want him to suffer the hardships that I did. And I moved from Arkansas and I went up north and stayed in, bought me a home up in Illinois. Not Illinois, Indiana. And I stayed there for 30 years. And after I retired, I came back here and I'm finishing my years here now.	13:35
Stacey Scales	Okay. Was it much different living in Indiana than here?	15:19
Ernest Caldwell	Well, the only difference that I could see was that here in the south, the White person was more— I'd say he was more— His dislike for Black people were more— How would you call that? More open than it was in Indiana, in the north. The White man there would tell you one thing and do another. So if a White person here in the south didn't like you, he would tell you, "Boy, I don't like you." But up there, they would say, "Yes sir" and be all together different.	15:24
Stacey Scales	Did you have any veteran experiences [indistinct 00:16:30] racism?	16:27
Ernest Caldwell	Yes, I was — Race relation in home services?	16:30
Stacey Scales	Yes.	16:36
Ernest Caldwell	I can't recall too of an experience in race relations that I had in service other than— In those days, so far as rank is concerned, you weren't promoted on the basis of what you knew. You were more or less promoted on the color of your skin. I can recall that. But other than that, I can't recall anything other than that. Now I can, and I can say this is one of the reasons that after I got my BS degree from Pine Bluff, one of the things that prompted me to get my master's was the governor [indistinct 00:17:47] son was going to school up at the University of Arkansas the same time I was. And I figured this way. I said, If a White man can get it, I can get it too. That's one of the things that prompt me to get my master's. Sure did. And I can't even remember whether [indistinct 00:18:16] son finished. I'm sure he did. But that was one of the things that prompted me to get my masters, other than trying to better myself.	16:42
Stacey Scales	When did you realize that there were two societies, Black and White society? Were you younger [indistinct 00:18:40]—	18:32
Ernest Caldwell	Yeah. At an early age. Yeah. Because at an early age I realized that I couldn't play with— You want to cut it off?	18:39
Stacey Scales	Yes. You said you were pretty young when you realized—	18:52
Ernest Caldwell	Yes, at an early age. Because I can remember an incident where, let me see, what happened was that this was a pretty car. I was at a carnival and the car was parked there and I'd never seen a car that pretty. And I went up to the car and looking at it and the owner of the car came around and said, "Nigga what you doing?" And he slapped me. I was just looking at the car and that stayed with me for a long time and told me to get away from that car. Yeah. I never will forget that.	18:54
Stacey Scales	About how old were you when that happened?	19:37
Ernest Caldwell	I was about 10 years old. Yeah.	19:39
Stacey Scales	So how'd you feel after he did that?	19:44
Ernest Caldwell	Well, I knew it existed, but I didn't knew it existed to that extent. Just merely looking at something. Yeah. And being punished with just merely looking at something, I didn't know that. There were, well, occasions I played little league and we weren't allowed to play on the white teams. And I played—	19:47
Stacey Scales	Did you all ever play against the white teams?	20:08
Ernest Caldwell	No, no, no. We never did play against the white teams. We just played against ourselves.	20:08
Stacey Scales	Oh, okay.	20:23
Ernest Caldwell	Yeah.	20:23
Stacey Scales	You were about to say you played something else.	20:23
Ernest Caldwell	Oh, that was a little league. And then aftertI grew up, I played basketball and baseball too. But we always played against ourselves. That's even in high school, That's even 12th grade. We only had tournaments, white tournaments, in Black terms.	20:31
Stacey Scales	What was the name of your high school?	21:00
Ernest Caldwell	It's Harrison High School. It's H—A—R—R—I—S—O—N High school. That's in Blytheville, Arkansas.	21:02
Stacey Scales	And y'all stayed segregated until you were even in the 12th grade?	21:09
Ernest Caldwell	Yeah. Mm—hmm.	21:14
Stacey Scales	Did the Negro League games ever come through the area where [indistinct 00:21:25]—	21:20
Ernest Caldwell	No, I never did get a chance to see it. I only read about it after I grew up. I never did get the chance to see it.	21:25
Stacey Scales	So were there local sports teams here or they were just mainly from the schools?	21:35
Ernest Caldwell	Just from schools. That was when I was growing up around Blytheville, Arkansas.	21:43
Stacey Scales	What would you do for entertainment when you were growing up? To entertain [indistinct 00:21:58].	21:50
Ernest Caldwell	Well, I would wait for the 4th of July and well, we'd celebrate the 8th of August as being our celebration because my dad was told that was the time that the news reached that particular area that the Blacks were free—	21:57
Stacey Scales	In Arkansas?	22:21
Ernest Caldwell	Yeah.	22:22
Stacey Scales	And that was near—	22:23
Ernest Caldwell	Blytheville.	22:25
Stacey Scales	Blytheville?	22:25
Ernest Caldwell	Mm—hmm. And so we had big picnics and then baseball games and all the little entertainments. But it was only the Black. The Whites more or less celebrated the 4th of July, and we celebrated the 8th of August.	22:26
Stacey Scales	Now, would most Blacks celebrate the 8th of August [indistinct 00:22:44]?	22:43
Ernest Caldwell	8th of August, yeah.	22:43
Stacey Scales	Is that still practice now? The 8th of August.	22:52
Ernest Caldwell	I don't think it is now. I think there is a practice down in Texas called Juneteenth.	22:58
Stacey Scales	Oh, okay. I've heard of that.	23:02
Ernest Caldwell	Yeah, they celebrate the, let me see, is it 18th or 19th of June?	23:05
Stacey Scales	Right.	23:13
Ernest Caldwell	July or whatever.	23:13
Stacey Scales	19th of June.	23:14
Ernest Caldwell	Yeah. Juneteenth. Yeah.	23:16
Stacey Scales	Now, would people get up and say speeches and things like that on August 8th?	23:19
Ernest Caldwell	No, it was just entertainment. It was just local entertainment. Yeah. Baseball games and barbecuing. Then get together with the local communities there.	23:24
Stacey Scales	And the people. Would anybody talk about the significance of August 8th? Like the history and— You had said your father told you that's [indistinct 00:23:49]—	23:37
Ernest Caldwell	Mm—hmm. Yeah. Now my principal would discuss this with us in school. I can remember being in his discussion back in school when I was going up in school.	23:48
Stacey Scales	Oh yes. So at this time of the year, were you in school during the 8th of August? That time, was that school time?	24:02
Ernest Caldwell	No, no. The 8th of August was a holiday for everybody in that particular community.	24:12
Stacey Scales	So on the ninth, would you have school or where else—	24:21
Ernest Caldwell	If it was a school day, yes.	24:23
Stacey Scales	Oh, okay. Did you all go to school all year round? I mean nine months out of the year?	24:30
Ernest Caldwell	Well, no. When I was at that age, I went to school a half day. That was a half day school. That was during the cotton picking time, a half day in school. And the other half day they would turn out and we would pick cotton.	24:34
Stacey Scales	And would the local white children pick cotton too?	24:59
Ernest Caldwell	No, it was just the Blacks [indistinct 00:25:06] that— Breaking the system.	25:03
Stacey Scales	Oh, okay. What was the name of the grade school that you were going to?	25:13
Ernest Caldwell	That was Mississippi County Training School. Okay.	25:17
Stacey Scales	Mississippi County Training School.	25:20
Ernest Caldwell	Hat was located in Amorel, Arkansas. That's in A-R-M-O-R-E-L, Arkansas. That was six miles, five or six miles, to Blytheville, I think I've told you that.	25:25
Stacey Scales	So what other holidays— What would you all do on other holidays? Like Christmas?	25:45
Ernest Caldwell	Yeah, we would celebrate Christmas in our own way, at home or whatever the case might be. Yeah, we would do that. Yeah.	25:48
Stacey Scales	When you were growing up, were there places people suggested that you shouldn't go? Like your parents?	25:57
Ernest Caldwell	Oh yes. There were places, well places in cafes. There were times where— Certain places you couldn't go so far as cafes are concerned, only the Black cafes. And most of the times when you go from city to city, you would ask information about where were the tracks, because most Blacks live across the tracks. The tracks more or less divided to Black from the White.	26:03
Stacey Scales	And is that true to most of the places that you've lived?	26:45
Ernest Caldwell	Yeah. More or less. There was division, that section of the town, it had to be some point where you could see that's the colored neighborhood and that's the White neighborhood.	26:49
Stacey Scales	So what happened if you went to the White neighborhood or someplace where you weren't supposed to be—	27:04
Ernest Caldwell	If you went there, sometimes you were asked— You'd be questioned, say, "Boy, what are you doing in this part of town?" Yes. And you'd have to have some kind of explanation or else they'd tell you get out.	27:15
Stacey Scales	Would that be the police questioning [indistinct 00:27:34]?	27:31
Ernest Caldwell	Uh—uh, just regular people. Just regular people. Yeah. Right.	27:33
Stacey Scales	So, how did—	27:40
Ernest Caldwell	I'm going and pick that [indistinct 00:27:44].	27:42
Stacey Scales	So did they have Black police back then?	27:47
Ernest Caldwell	No.	27:49
Stacey Scales	No?	27:49
Ernest Caldwell	No black policemen, uh—uh.	27:50
Stacey Scales	When did you move to the Brinkley area here?	27:55
Ernest Caldwell	I moved back to Brinkley, I'd say in '86, 1986. Prior to that time— I left here in 1958. Well what happened was that I was teaching school in— Biscoe High School. That's about 12 miles from here. And in the summer times when school was out, I'd go and work on my master's degree at the University of Arkansas, UAP,B right here. Not UAPB, but University of Arkansas in Little Rock. And I got all the hours that I could get there. Then I had to go on campus to finish up and get my master's degree. I got my master's degree in agricultural education.	27:58
Ernest Caldwell	And during this time there was a salary range that I never knew what the whites were getting, but I did know what I was getting. I was getting, what, I think it was $156 a month. That's for 12 months. I was teaching high school science. And after I got my master's degree, I came back and this was— And told the superintendent, he was a White fella. His name incidentally was Caldwell too.	28:56
Stacey Scales	Oh yeah?	29:38
Ernest Caldwell	Yeah, I said, "Mr. Caldwell, I've gone off and I've gotten my master's degree." And it was time for us to start another year teaching. He said, "Well Ernie, I tell you what I can do. I can increase your salary by $10 more a year."	29:39
Ernest Caldwell	That's from with a master's degree now, $10 more a year. In other words—	30:01
Stacey Scales	Yeah. In other words—	30:07
Ernest Caldwell	— I'd be making $166 a month. Not a month. He didn't increase it $10 a month. That's $10 more a year.	30:09
Stacey Scales	And when did this happen?	30:23
Ernest Caldwell	This happened in 1955, 1955, that's when I thanked him. I said, "Thank you sir." And I went out of his office and my little family and I— I left my wife here and I had a cousin in Chicago and they were hiring for— In the post office. And my cousin asked me to come up there and see if I could get a job in the post office until I could work myself in the school system. I had a master's degree. So I went there and I was interviewed at the post office. But unbeknownst to me, I didn't know you had to have some money under the table to give them. I passed the test, I passed the test, but they told me I flunked the test. I passed the test. Of course I didn't know anything about it under the table.	30:26
Stacey Scales	So what type of system was that?	31:35
Ernest Caldwell	I don't know.	31:36
Stacey Scales	How did you find out that you had passed—	31:36
Ernest Caldwell	Later on, yes. So my cousin was working in a place called Nabisco, National Biscuits Company. I imagine you've heard of Nabisco?	31:42
Stacey Scales	Yes.	31:53
Ernest Caldwell	Uh—huh. And he said, "Come on, go with me out here and I can get you a job." I was in need of a job real bad because I had left my job down here. So he took me out there and interviewed me. I took my little credentials with me and my master's degree certificate and all this thinking that I would get a good job. But the only available job that they gave me was sweeping the floor. They didn't hire any Blacks in supervision. The highest position you could get there was a baker.	31:54
Ernest Caldwell	So I needed a job because I had a wife and a new baby. So I started sweeping the floor and I swept the floor. And with this master's, the Black fellas would kid me about sweeping the floor with a master's degree, but what else could I do? I need the job. But one thing I did, I kept my area clean all the time and they knew what I had. So pretty soon promotions came up and they promoted me to— It's a form of utility, running the sewing machine. In the factory they had these great big conveyor belts and to put them together, they had a great big sewing machine and you had to sew these belts together. So I learned that trade and that promoted me up to utility.	32:37
Ernest Caldwell	And they asked me if I wanted to be, after a certain length of time, did I want to go and be a baker? And I told them, "No, I'm working six days. I want to stay right where I am because I'm more or less—" Of course I'm my own boss. I'd get on that and sew those belts in the least amount of time and put them back in production. And I was working six days a week. If I'd gone to the— Going to be a baker, I'd go at the bottom of my list and come up again. So I stayed there until I think this thing broke for supervision when— Who was that was in there? Johnson, President Johnson was— That's when the equal opportunity thing came about. And they came around and asked me if I wanted to be in supervision. I said yes.	33:38
Ernest Caldwell	Well there was one person ahead of me and he had worked there for 18 years and he had high school education. So they promoted him first as a apprentice foreman. So the next Black person they asked was me. And I said yes. And I went into supervision as an apprentice foreman. And as a matter of fact, I worked myself from apprentice foreman up to general foreman.	34:43
Ernest Caldwell	Then after a length of time, with them knowing I had the degrees that I had, there came a break for management and— Well, this was being a general foreman was supervision, but that was in the main office. They asked me if I wanted to come up and be an assistant to the assistant in hiring. And that was called, that position was called Assistant Assistant Personnel Manager. So yes, I said, "Yeah, I'll take a [indistinct 00:35:54]." Well they did tell me this, that I was the second Black person in management. So I went up and I tried it and it worked out so well. And I knew my job so well until I worked there about six or seven years in that position. Then they asked me—	35:14
Ernest Caldwell	A position came over for safety director and they asked me if I wanted to be a safety director. And I told them I didn't know because most of the safety directors at that time were fired. All management didn't have a union, just.. So my personnel manager, he assured me, said, "Ernie, I tell you what, you go up and try that job and if you don't like it you can come back and be general foreman back in the warehouse."	36:22
Ernest Caldwell	So I went up and tried it and I liked it and I stayed there and I started reducing accidents, reducing company accidents and all this. And with this company being the biggest bakery in the United States and my accident rate had gone down so drastic, they started coming to me and asking me what was I doing? I told them nothing unusual. I was just doing my job. So they asked me three times if I wanted to be promoted up in the June headquarters up in New Jersey. And I turned them down each time because I had established myself here there. I was buying a home, my wife had a job and I said, "No, all I want you to do is increase my salary." So they would increase my salary. And I stayed there until I retired.	36:55
Stacey Scales	So you went from sweeping the floor with the master's degree to—	38:02
Ernest Caldwell	To Safety director.	38:02
Stacey Scales	Safety director.	38:07
Ernest Caldwell	And after I retired, I think they tried four different persons to take my job and they couldn't get anybody to take it because— As a matter of fact, I was over and above, you know what you call a super negro. So they asked me if I wanted to come back to Nabisco as a consultant. I said no, I don't. Because I was just like a rabbit in the briar patch. I found my social security and my retirement pay was enough for me to live on. So I stayed there until I came back here because I like hunting and fishing. Bless you.	38:10
Stacey Scales	Did you intimidate them with your degrees when you were [indistinct 00:39:04]?	39:00
Ernest Caldwell	No. Bless you. No I didn't.	39:04
Stacey Scales	Do you think that they were intimidated by you?	39:09
Ernest Caldwell	I can recall one incident, was a White baker. He said to another White baker, "That Ernie, he thinks like a White man." I never will forget that. Yeah. I never will forget that.	39:13
Stacey Scales	So what did you take that statement to mean?	39:33
Ernest Caldwell	Well, I took that statement to mean that I was Black and I wasn't capable of thinking, capable of doing the things that a White person could do. There were many times I'd walk around that floor when I was sweeping the floor and I look at— Looking at the positions and I said I could do that. But they weren't promoting Blacks in those positions.	39:40
Stacey Scales	How'd you feel knowing that you had those qualifications to carry on those responsibilities, but yet they were keeping you in the position [indistinct 00:40:18]?	40:07
Ernest Caldwell	I felt real bad, because there were people, White people in those positions, that didn't have nothing like the knowledge that I had so far as education is concerned, or so far as being able to do those things. There were occasions where I would have to write out different things for some White friends of mine because they didn't know.	40:18
Stacey Scales	Oh yes? They couldn't read?	40:48
Ernest Caldwell	They could read, but they didn't know how to— Say for an instance, if I can recall one instance where I wrote out a statement that the fellow wanted to leave Nabisco and go somewhere else. And I wrote out a statement to that effect for him to go to the other company.	40:48
Stacey Scales	So did your boss treat you fair? People that worked with you?	41:20
Ernest Caldwell	Well they treated me more or less than— Well, in other words they call themselves having to bend over backwards to try to make sure that I was being, at that time, being treated fairly because they were afraid, I think more or less, that I would turn them in or whatever the case might be.	41:26
Stacey Scales	Oh really?	41:54
Ernest Caldwell	Mm—hmm. Because I would go to different places and I'd be the only Black there from my company.	41:54
Stacey Scales	Right. Now did you work anyplace else then? You say you were trying to raise your family?	42:06
Ernest Caldwell	No, that's the only place I retired from, that particular place.	42:16
Stacey Scales	Did your wife work?	42:19
Ernest Caldwell	Well my wife at that time, she's passed now, she worked at— When I was in Gary, she worked as a clerk up in the municipal department.	42:21
Stacey Scales	Oh yes. So you lived in Gary, Indiana?	42:34
Ernest Caldwell	Yeah, that's where I did live. Yeah, I lived in Gary and I worked in Chicago.	42:35
Stacey Scales	Oh, okay. You were living in Indiana.	42:45
Ernest Caldwell	Mm—hmm. That's 30 miles, 30 miles one way.	42:45
Stacey Scales	I'm from Gary.	42:48
Ernest Caldwell	Oh yeah. [indistinct 00:42:51]. Have you ever heard of a place called Tarrytown?	42:49
Stacey Scales	Yes.	42:53
Ernest Caldwell	Well, my home was in Tarrytown, right there [indistinct 00:42:56].	42:54
Stacey Scales	Okay. I was born and raised on 10th and Wright Street.	42:57
Ernest Caldwell	Oh yeah, I know where that is. Yeah.	43:03
Stacey Scales	Washington [indistinct 00:43:05] Tarrytown—	43:04
Ernest Caldwell	Yeah, mm—hmm. Yes. My son graduated from— What's the school out there? The big school—	43:05
Stacey Scales	West Side?	43:17
Ernest Caldwell	Yeah. He graduated from West Side. Well little elementary school he graduated from, well he went to Alain Locke. Yeah. And well he graduated from West Side, at the same time he was going to West Side in his 11th and 12th grades he went to this trade school out there in— What was it? Glen Park or something. He's working on a—	43:18
Stacey Scales	Trade?	43:50
Ernest Caldwell	Yeah.	43:51
Stacey Scales	Career center?	43:51
Ernest Caldwell	Yeah, career center. Yeah. That's where it was. And he got his certificate the same time he graduated from high school and he graduated from West Side. And his counsel influenced him to— I wanted him to go into supervision at Nabisco. But he determined his counselor and influenced him to go into engineering. So with his little high school diploma and his certificate from— What do you call it?	43:53
Stacey Scales	The career center?	44:27
Ernest Caldwell	Yeah. Mm—hmm. He went to Purdue and he got his degree from Purdue in engineering.	44:28
Stacey Scales	Did you find the north different from the south as far as the Jim Crow situation or discrimination in Indiana?	44:37
Ernest Caldwell	Yeah. Well, just as I say, there was discrimination but it was wasn't as open it it was there. It was there because fellows working right along with me, I never did know what their salary was, but they knew what mine was.	44:50
Stacey Scales	So were whites getting paid more?	45:10
Ernest Caldwell	I think so. I do believe that they were, because I can recall one incident where it was— I was an assistant and personnel manager and it was another assistant personnel manager and he let— He'll slip out once and I found out he was getting more than I was. But really that wasn't— I don't think there was anything that I could do about it.	45:12
Stacey Scales	Were you all doing the same amount of work?	45:40
Ernest Caldwell	Yeah. Mm—hmm.	45:43
Stacey Scales	So did things ever change for you?	45:47
Ernest Caldwell	I think things changed when they asked me to go a step higher in personnel as going to work as a safety director in the general office. And I didn't accept the position because it was too little, too late. I was way up in age then and I didn't want to uproot myself and then go up there and leave my family there and I'd be traveling from one Nabisco facility to another. So I elected not to change positions. I just stayed there until I retired.	45:55
Stacey Scales	Would you ever come back and visit the south?	46:41
Ernest Caldwell	Yeah, I'd come. My mother lived in Helena, Arkansas and I'd come here every year.	46:45
Stacey Scales	Oh yeah?	46:51
Ernest Caldwell	Yes. I'd come here and spend two weeks with her every year.	46:51
Stacey Scales	Did you come back a different person?	46:56

Ernest Caldwell	The thing that happen to him or my family. So when I'd come down here, I'd say yes or no. And I never did have any trouble. Discrimination was here but I didn't want to get into that particular thing.	0:01
Stacey Scales	I was wondering, did you look at life different after having been in the north, just in general, Like your family from down here, or did—?	0:18
Ernest Caldwell	Yeah.	0:29
Stacey Scales	Your experiences in the north change [indistinct 00:00:32]?	0:30
Ernest Caldwell	Yeah. Yeah, it did. Yes, it did.	0:32
Stacey Scales	In what ways?	0:37
Ernest Caldwell	Well, one of the things was that I could see things that were discriminatory that I couldn't see— Well, I imagine it was with the experience when I was here then, before I left and came back.	0:39
Stacey Scales	Oh, okay. So your eyes were opened?	1:00
Ernest Caldwell	Yeah. Yeah. I had a broader outlook on life for one thing.	1:03
Stacey Scales	Now, would people from the south view you as a different person?	1:11
Ernest Caldwell	I imagine they did. I imagine they did, because when I came back here to Brinkley, I never bought anything on credit.	1:18
Stacey Scales	Oh.	1:30
Ernest Caldwell	I paid cash for everything I had. As a matter of fact, when I remarried and my wife was, she had a little account there and there, and I paid off all of them. And the place that she worked was in a little cafe, and they said they considered her man a rich nigger from the north. But I didn't have anything.	1:31
Stacey Scales	Right.	1:59
Ernest Caldwell	I still didn't have anything, but I was able to— Well, my salary was able to keep both of us going. I didn't have to ask for anything.	2:00
Stacey Scales	So it was a money factor that people thought—?	2:09
Ernest Caldwell	Yeah. Yeah, That's right.	2:12
Stacey Scales	That's an interesting thing when you [indistinct 00:02:22]	2:18
Ernest Caldwell	Yeah. Because I can recall since being here, it was White fella asking me, said they had an opening out there at one of the plants, they wanted know I wanted to be a night watchman. I told no. He said, "Oh, that's right. You one of them rich fellas. You don't need no money." I said, "It's not that, I just don't want to work. I worked enough in my days."	2:22
Stacey Scales	Right. So they kind of pick on you?	2:50
Ernest Caldwell	Yeah. Yeah.	2:51
Stacey Scales	Now, did your father end up staying on that farm all of his life when you were—?	2:59
Ernest Caldwell	Yeah. Yeah. He stayed. Now, he didn't stay on that particular— He stayed on the farm that we bought.	3:03
Stacey Scales	Right.	3:13
Ernest Caldwell	Yeah. Yeah. He passed on that farm. But it was debt free and everything.	3:14
Stacey Scales	Where would he sell his product?	3:17
Ernest Caldwell	Same place that anybody else would sell it. Yeah.	3:21
Stacey Scales	What was your very first job?	3:27
Ernest Caldwell	Oh, my very first job after I left the farm was— I went to school. My very first job was on NYA, that was in the seventh grade. My job was to get there earlier in the mornings and sweep up. No, I swept up in the afternoons.	3:36
Stacey Scales	What does NYA stand for?	4:10
Ernest Caldwell	National Youth Administration.	4:10
Stacey Scales	Oh, okay.	4:10
Ernest Caldwell	That's what that was. And I would clean up the school after— Stay late and clean up the school. And in the mornings I'd get there earlier than the rest of the class and make the fires in the wintertime.	4:10
Stacey Scales	Oh, yeah.	4:29
Ernest Caldwell	And for that, I was paid $8 a month. And on Saturday mornings I had to go up and milk the professor's two cows.	4:29
Stacey Scales	Oh, yeah?	4:44
Ernest Caldwell	I never will forget that either. $8 a month. And I can recall, a lot of people don't believe, but I can recall chopping cotton from sun up to sundown for 50 cents a day.	4:46
Stacey Scales	How old were you then?	4:58
Ernest Caldwell	Oh, I was about— Hmm, let me see how old I was, about 15 or 16. Or was I that old? I don't think I was that old, because I would work with my dad with him on his crops through the week and Saturdays he would let me go out and chop cotton for somebody else.	5:01
Stacey Scales	Oh, right.	5:34
Ernest Caldwell	For 50 cents a day. Whenever the crops were finished at home, I could go out and chop cotton for 50 cents a day other places, but I had to turn that money in, all but Saturday. I could keep Saturday.	5:34
Stacey Scales	You had to turn into your Pop?	5:50
Ernest Caldwell	Yeah. Yeah. Mm—hmm.	5:51
Stacey Scales	And what would he do with it?	5:52
Ernest Caldwell	He was farming.	5:55
Stacey Scales	Oh.	5:56
Ernest Caldwell	He was farming, yeah. He was taking care of me and everything. So that money went toward my clothes, buying my clothes and everything like that.	5:57
Stacey Scales	What was the relationship with your family and the neighbors and the community?	6:08
Ernest Caldwell	Well, it was good. You mean the Blacks?	6:16
Stacey Scales	Right. How would they function as a group?	6:18
Ernest Caldwell	Oh, well, the church. We'd go to church and we'd go to— The school had different functions, and we'd go there. And that's about it.	6:22
Stacey Scales	Would people help each other during hard times?	6:35
Ernest Caldwell	Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's right. I can recall, with my dad being a renter, he more or less was a little bit more able to help other people than the share croppers. They'd come to him a lot of times and he'd have to furnish them with facilities and subsidies or whatever, just give it to them.	6:38
Stacey Scales	Oh, yeah. So at what point do you feel as if you went from being a boy to being a man?	7:02
Ernest Caldwell	When I went to AM&N college, Johnny Pine Bluff. I can recall, my dad gave me a hundred dollars and told me, he said, "Son, this is all I have and you got to make it on your own." So I can remember at one time at Pine Bluff, I had four jobs. Four jobs. One in the mess hall, one on the college farm, one in town, and working NYA in the shop. I had four jobs and the one in NYA, in the shop that was more or less connected with the government. So that particular job, they paid me a check. The three jobs, the other jobs that I had, it was enough to pay my college tuition. But this other one I had, I could get a little check from that until they found out that I was able to get a check. So they cut me off for one of them jobs.	7:17
Stacey Scales	Oh, yeah.	8:34
Ernest Caldwell	And I had to turn the check in. Sure did. And I can also recall going to school at Pine Bluff and having to work. I was employed at the Pine Bluff Arsenal. Have you heard of the arsenal in Pine Bluff? That's the Pine Bluff Arsenal. They were building the Pine Bluff Arsenal, that's where they been making ammunition and everything for the war and everything. So I worked there at night and went to school in the daytime.	8:35
Stacey Scales	What did you do at the arsenal?	9:11
Ernest Caldwell	Well, I was promoted up to pouring concrete with a dipper. They had a big dipper. And I would be on the dipper on these buildings at the arsenal. I'd be on the dipper to pour the concrete. Pour the dipper — Yeah.	9:11
Stacey Scales	Did they have Black doctors when you were growing up?	9:31
Ernest Caldwell	Let's see? Hmm. I can't recall that.	9:37
Stacey Scales	Who would deliver the babies in—?	9:47
Ernest Caldwell	Midwives.	9:50
Stacey Scales	Midwives?	9:50
Ernest Caldwell	Mm—hmm. There would be a White doctor come out sometime but midwives, most of the time, delivered the babies in the local community.	9:52
Stacey Scales	How did they learn all that they knew?	10:03
Ernest Caldwell	From other midwives.	10:07
Stacey Scales	Oh, yeah.	10:10
Ernest Caldwell	Mm—hmm. Sure did.	10:12
Stacey Scales	So it's usually like a generational thing?	10:12
Ernest Caldwell	Yeah. Yeah.	10:13
Stacey Scales	Did people back then use herbs and different plants to help people feel better when they were—?	10:16
Ernest Caldwell	Yeah. Yeah. I can recall my mother having to make us drink, let me see, what's the name of that tea? Every year in the spring, it was some kind of tea that she made us drink. It grew out in the woods, and we'd have to mix this with the greens and I guess we'd make a tea. She'd make a tea out of it, that's what it was. And we drank that tea. I forgot the name of it now.	10:21
Stacey Scales	Do you remember any of the other plants that they would use or herbs?	11:15
Ernest Caldwell	I can't recall right off hand. I can't recall right now.	11:26
Stacey Scales	Right. Would Blacks back then talk about spirits and the ancestors?	11:30
Ernest Caldwell	Yes, that's right, they did. As a matter of fact, where we lived, when my dad was renting, there used to be a graveyard, oh, about half a mile from our house. And when I played basketball when I was seventh and eighth grade, and I would fear going by that graveyard, I'd go the other way cause they said [indistinct 00:12:02] were out there and I had to walk home by myself.	11:35
Stacey Scales	Oh, yeah. So was that something people took serious?	12:08
Ernest Caldwell	Yeah, they took that pretty serious. Most people did. But there were some that said, "Oh, there's no such thing as spirits and all that."	12:15
Stacey Scales	How about the signs, would that be—?	12:25
Ernest Caldwell	Yeah. Yeah. There were signs like not walking under a ladder, and that would give you bad luck. What other signs was that? Hell, there are any number of them, I can't think of them now. But yeah, they—	12:31
Stacey Scales	Did your father use the zodiac signs to plant?	12:40
Ernest Caldwell	Yeah, he did. Yeah, he did. Yeah. There were certain times he would. He'd do his planting on certain signs of the zodiac, and he would harvest on certain signs too.	12:51
Stacey Scales	Would that work out better?	13:09
Ernest Caldwell	To him, he thought it what did, I really don't know.	13:09
Stacey Scales	Where would he get that information from?	13:16
Ernest Caldwell	It was an almanac that was published every year. And he would get those different things from that. I think it was MacDonald's almanac. He'd get those signs from that almanac, it had the months of the year in it, and each month had different signs.	13:19
Stacey Scales	Do you remember ever listening to a Joe Lewis fight?	13:39
Ernest Caldwell	Oh yes.	13:48
Stacey Scales	Yeah.	13:49
Ernest Caldwell	Oh, yes. As a matter of fact, as I was saying, the independence that my father had, he was one of the ones that had the first radio in that particular area. And what happened was that the fights, the Joe Lewis fights, he would raise the window and set the radio in the window outside so the people outside could hear the radio. And when Joe Lewis won, we could talk about it among ourselves, but don't say anything about it near the Whites. You couldn't mention that around the Whites.	13:50
Stacey Scales	Yeah?	14:30
Ernest Caldwell	That's right. Sure. I never will forget that.	14:31
Stacey Scales	What would happen?	14:31
Ernest Caldwell	Huh?	14:31
Stacey Scales	What would happen?	14:31
Ernest Caldwell	I don't know what [indistinct 00:14:32]. They probably jump on you, whatever the case, man. Yeah.	14:31
Stacey Scales	That was kind of like something you knew not do?	14:31
Ernest Caldwell	Yeah, That's right. That's right.	14:32
Stacey Scales	Amongst yourself, how would people react when he would win?	14:51
Ernest Caldwell	Oh gosh, They'd be real proud. But now they'd keep that proudness to themselves because they were afraid if they act up in anyway, that they made cause a riot or anything.	14:55
Stacey Scales	Now, was your father considered a leader in the community because he had—?	15:14
Ernest Caldwell	Yeah, I think he was, they kind of looked up to him more so than they did the regular share croppers because— But Dad could do so many things, and they would come to him on Saturdays to get the haircuts. And if things went wrong with, well, we'd call them grafonola, but it was little thing that you wind up and you'd play records on. They'd break the spring. He'd fix the spring for them. And fix their shoes, he had a little thing where he'd fix their shoes and different things. Carpentry.	15:20
Stacey Scales	Did he ever tell you about how it was for him when he was coming up?	16:05
Ernest Caldwell	Huh, yes, he did. He told me that there was certain things that in certain places I couldn't go because of the Whites, how the Whites would treat the Blacks.	16:08
Stacey Scales	Oh, yes. Was there ever any time where he would talk about stories from slavery times or anything?	16:30
Ernest Caldwell	No. I never did hear him mention anything about that.	16:41
Stacey Scales	No?	16:46
Ernest Caldwell	No.	16:46
Stacey Scales	Had he ever shared with you any kind of lynchings of any type?	16:49
Ernest Caldwell	No. He didn't. Sure didn't. I don't know whether he witnessed any lynchings or anything of that nature.	16:53
Stacey Scales	So you don't remember anything like that happening?	17:04
Ernest Caldwell	No. No, I don't.	17:06
Stacey Scales	Was there a NAACP in your in—? [indistinct 00:17:15]	17:06
Ernest Caldwell	Well, I was in [indistinct 00:17:22] and yeah, in Arkansas, you mean or what?	17:19
Stacey Scales	Yes.	17:23
Ernest Caldwell	Yeah. Yeah. I was a member of NAACP for a long time.	17:25
Stacey Scales	Oh, yes.	17:27
Ernest Caldwell	I'm not a member now because I let my membership expire. But I was a member of NAACP for a long time.	17:31
Stacey Scales	When you were younger?	17:40
Ernest Caldwell	Yeah. Yeah.	17:41
Stacey Scales	Did you get the magazine, Crisis Magazine?	17:43
Ernest Caldwell	I don't recall getting that. I've seen it though.	17:49
Stacey Scales	How did people get their news when you were growing up? Blacks?	17:55
Ernest Caldwell	Oh, down here in Arkansas, there was a little Black newspaper in Little Rock. With Daisy Bates, I think. Oh, was it Daisy Bates? [indistinct 00:18:19] let me see. One of them, she was a Black lady publisher, Black newspaper there in Little Rock, and it would come out in the community. And while I was in Gary, there was a Black newspaper, The Gary Info. As a matter of fact, I still get that. And in Chicago, it was the Crusader, that was a Black newspaper. You know about the info though?	18:00
Stacey Scales	Yes.	18:49
Ernest Caldwell	Uh—huh.	18:55
Stacey Scales	So there wasn't a local paper?	18:56
Ernest Caldwell	No. I can recall here, right here in Brinkley. It was the Brinkley August. And the little things that they had to say about Blacks was on the last page. And the caption was, With our Colored Readers.	18:58
Stacey Scales	With our what?	19:15
Ernest Caldwell	Colored readers.	19:16
Stacey Scales	Oh, yeah.	19:18
Ernest Caldwell	Yes. That stayed in the paper a long time. The Brinkley August, With our Colored Readers on the last page. And it wasn't too much, but that's the only—	19:19
Stacey Scales	It just had a small section.	19:30
Ernest Caldwell	Yeah, small section.	19:31
Stacey Scales	Did you ever visit the agricultural school when you were coming up in Fargo?	19:35
Ernest Caldwell	Yeah, Dr. Brown and all those. Matter of fact, my first wife graduated from Fargo.	19:46
Stacey Scales	Oh, yes.	19:52
Ernest Caldwell	And as a matter of fact, I was a state official, basketball official, and I used to referee tournaments down at Fargo and different places here in Arkansas.	19:53
Stacey Scales	So you were a referee during the time that it was functioning?	20:02
Ernest Caldwell	Yeah. Yeah.	20:09
Stacey Scales	So you would be in that gym? I saw a picture of that gym the other day. The old gym.	20:12
Ernest Caldwell	Yeah. I'd be in the gym and as a matter of fact, teaching veterans. And my first job when I got out of college was teaching World War II farming veterans. And a lot of my veterans were in that vicinity, Fargo vicinity. The Pritchards, and the Holdens, And oh, it's a lot of them, the Purcells, a lot of them.	20:21
Stacey Scales	What were you teaching in your—?	20:49
Ernest Caldwell	Teaching the newest methods of farming. I got my degree in agriculture and at that time, I was on the Farm Veteran's Program that was handled by the government through the local schools. And I would go out in the community five days a week and teach them the newest methods in how to better themselves so far as farming is concerned. And on Saturdays, there would be eight hours of classroom instruction. That was in the school. And I did that until it played out. I did that for about six years.	20:51
Stacey Scales	So is there anything that you think that's important about, maybe your growing up in this area, or just Arkansas as it relates to Blacks in particular? Anything that you feel that should be put into historical accounts that you think that is very important to be saved as history [indistinct 00:22:13] your experience in Arkansas?	21:41
Ernest Caldwell	Oh, the only thing I can recall is the segregational schools at that time. I can recall teaching high school science in Visco, a time where they found out that a high official from the Board of Education in Little Rock was coming to visit our school. And I was teaching high school science. They found out about it, so they brought over some microscopes to the school, and they brought over some rocks from the school. And when the fellow came to my room and he asked the students about the microscopes and the rocks, I spoke for them, I said, "Well, this is the first time we saw those. They haven't been in this school all the time. They came from the White school." I never will forget that. And the students told him too. They didn't know what they were.	22:18
Stacey Scales	So why had they sent those things over?	23:28
Ernest Caldwell	Because they knew that a fellow from the Board of Education was coming down to visit our school, and they were trying to impress him that we were using those types of facilities in the science department.	23:30
Stacey Scales	So they wanted to make it seem like everything was okay?	23:49
Ernest Caldwell	Yeah. Yeah. That's one of the most outstanding things I can remember so far as segregation is concerned. I never will forget that.	23:53
Stacey Scales	So how did he react when you all responded?	23:59
Ernest Caldwell	Well, he acted surprised because he thought we knew all about that, in the science department would have microscopes and have different kinds of rocks, layers of soil, or whatever the case might be when they were teaching science. But we didn't have that.	24:05
Stacey Scales	So how were you teaching without those things?	24:34
Ernest Caldwell	The only thing I could do was to teach them the things that were visual because we didn't have anything that they could actually look through and see.	24:40
Stacey Scales	Were there changes after he left from that meeting?	24:53
Ernest Caldwell	Well, not too much. We never did get microscopes in the science department. Never did get that, and then we never did get the rocks or whatever they brought over. We never did get that either.	24:56
Stacey Scales	So those things went back?	25:13
Ernest Caldwell	Yeah, they went back the next day. Sure did.	25:13
Stacey Scales	How about the books?	25:21
Ernest Caldwell	Oh, the books that we got came from the White school. Most of the books that we got came from the White school, secondhand.	25:23
Stacey Scales	Oh yes.	25:36
Ernest Caldwell	The same thing happened when I was teaching veterans over at the veterans training program. Now, this was government facility. Now they had some white classes and they had some Black classes. But in the white classes, they were able to teach. They had, oh, different teaching facilities that we didn't have in the shop. That shop was well equipped, but we didn't have that in our shop. We had hammers and squares and saws, hand saws and stuff like that. But over at the White school, they had all that. They had all electrical stuff.	25:37
Stacey Scales	So this is even recent?	26:21
Ernest Caldwell	Yeah, this was in 1953 to '55 or '56, something along in there.	26:27
Stacey Scales	Okay.	26:33
Ernest Caldwell	Yeah.	26:33
Stacey Scales	Did you ever notice things starting to change?	26:36
Ernest Caldwell	Yeah, I noticed that the changes after they found out that they had to integrate the schools, well the veterans program had played out. But the Blacks were able to go to the White schools. But I did notice that as the Blacks entered the white school, the Whites went out. Just like right now, here in Brinkley, it's more Blacks than they are Whites in the school system. On account of, before this past two years, there was a Black principal and Whites didn't want to be taught, didn't want any Blacks over there. So rather than do that, they'd go to private schools.	26:40
Stacey Scales	So they have private schools now.	27:34
Ernest Caldwell	They have one little private school right here in Brinkley in the lower grades. And I think they have another one somewhere going toward— Let's see, what is that? It's out of Brinkley and they'll bus their kids there. There's some Whites that still go to the school.	27:36
Stacey Scales	So is it pretty much like it was when you were coming up?	28:03
Ernest Caldwell	No, it's nothing like that now. Because as a matter of fact, when I was coming up, at one time there were no Blacks in the high school over here. There was a Black high school and a White high school.	28:07
Stacey Scales	Were there Black businesses in this area?	28:22
Ernest Caldwell	No. Mm—mm, The only Black business I can recall was that it was a Black blacksmith, he shoed horses. And here, up until here, recently, about four years ago, there was a Black undertaker.	28:34
Stacey Scales	Right.	29:01
Ernest Caldwell	Because right now you buried— Well, you got a section of the cemetery that's Black and then a section that's White. And here recently, about four years ago, there came a fella in the community that wanted to open up a plastic shop. He has it open now, but it took a long time for him to open it because he had to get the backings of so many White people.	29:01
Stacey Scales	Were the burial practices of Blacks back then different than they are now?	29:37
Ernest Caldwell	No, I think they're the same. The only thing about it is that, well, I do notice that they vary in the same cemetery here in Brinkley, but there's a section of the cemetery that's Black.	29:45
Stacey Scales	They still don't mix it up?	30:01
Ernest Caldwell	Same thing in outlying communities. They got a Black one and a White one.	30:06
Stacey Scales	Is there an all Black cemetery in Brinkley, Fargo? Is there?	30:12
Ernest Caldwell	Yes. There's one in Wheatley.	30:19
Stacey Scales	Wheatley?	30:22
Ernest Caldwell	Yeah. That's five miles from here. Five miles east of Brinkley.	30:24
Stacey Scales	What's the name of that?	30:29
Ernest Caldwell	I've forgotten the name of that cemetery. Matter of fact, my wife and I have plots out there too. I can't think of the name because I let her do all that. I just give her the money and we pay once a year for the plot.	30:32
Stacey Scales	Is there anything else you'd like to add?	30:53
Ernest Caldwell	That's about all I can think of right now.	30:55
Stacey Scales	Thank you. I enjoyed talking to you.	30:57
Ernest Caldwell	Same here.	30:57

Item Info

Title:

Ernest Caldwell interview recording, 1995 July 13

Date:

July 13, 1995

Creator:

Caldwell, Ernest

Contributor:

Scales, Mausiki Stacey

Description:

Name: Ernest Caldwell; Date of birth: 1921-11-03; Place of birth: Halls, TN; Occupation(s): day laborer; educator; teacher; Residence: Brinkley, AR
Informant ID: 1032; interviewed by: Stacey Scales.

Occupation:

Location:

Format:

Language:

English

Digital Collection:

Behind the Veil

Source Collection:

Behind the Veil: Documenting African American Life in the Jim Crow South interviews, photographs, and project records, circa 1864-2011, bulk 1990-2004

Series:

Related Resources:

See below

Provenance:

The David M. Rubenstein Rare Book and Manuscript Library acquired the Records of the Behind the Veil Oral History Project from the Duke University Center for Documentary Studies in 1997, 1998, 2000, and 2002.

Rights:

Limited Re-Use

CC BY-NC 4.0

Rights Note:

Copyright for content created by the Behind the Veil project is held by Duke University and made available to the public using a Creative Commons Attribution / Non-commercial (CC-BY-NC) license.

Identifier:

RL00170-CS-0262
7d2ba53e-6faf-4683-ab0a-319e966d2dbd
behindtheveil
d603f1b9-e114-4589-99c9-692307a3b6ce
ark:/87924/r4pz5cv8f
d603f1b9-e114-4589-99c9-692307a3b6ce

Permalink:

https://idn.duke.edu/ark:/87924/r4pz5cv8f

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Ernest Caldwell interview recording, 1995 July 13

Transcript

Item Info

1. Ernest Caldwell administrative file, 1995

John Hope Franklin Research Center

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Ernest Caldwell interview recording, 1995 July 13

Transcript

Item Info

Related Items

John Hope Franklin Research Center

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