Benjamin Perry interview recording, 1994 July 29

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Stacey Scales	Your name and how long have you been living in Tallahassee?	0:01
Benjamin Perry	I was born in Eatonville, Florida. My father brought me to Tallahassee in 1919. So that means that I've been here ever since, off and on. Years in the Army, five years in the Army, one year in graduate school at Iowa State, and about three years at Cornell University. So there—Wait a minute, and one year in North Carolina working.	0:21
Stacey Scales	Oh, okay.	0:56
Benjamin Perry	So most of the time then it's been in Tallahassee.	1:11
Stacey Scales	Do you remember how the city was when you came here? Could you describe it?	1:20
Benjamin Perry	Terrible. As I reflect, Tallahassee was the epitome of the cotton plantation or the plantation South. And segregation was rampant.	1:21
Stacey Scales	Do you remember any incidents like lynching, or that type thing?	1:43
Benjamin Perry	Fortunately I was not opposed to, I mean, exposed to that. I don't think that there was a lynching as such in Tallahassee, not to my recollection.	1:53
Stacey Scales	What did your father do out here?	2:10
Benjamin Perry	My father came here in agriculture.	2:12
Stacey Scales	Oh, yeah?	2:16
Benjamin Perry	And was made Dean of Agriculture and remained dean until 1949.	2:24
Stacey Scales	Did he work with the local farmers?	2:30
Benjamin Perry	He worked with, yes, the local farmers and with 4-H-ers, 4-H Club members.	2:31
Stacey Scales	Do you know if the Black farmers had any organization of their own?	2:49
Benjamin Perry	Yes, they had New Farmers of America, which is the Black organizations. It's the counterpart of the Future Farmers of America.	2:52
Stacey Scales	Did your father raise his own crops?	3:01
Benjamin Perry	He was in agriculture at Florida A&M and at that time they produced most of the food used at A&M. Cows, hogs, they used the milk, the pork and vegetables, just about anything that they could grow, they grew on the farm and here at A&M.	3:04
Stacey Scales	What was the relationship between people in the Agriculture Department and the administration with the people in the community?	3:39
Benjamin Perry	Well, I guess we call it good, because FAMU basically had a good relationship, maybe because of its leaders. But let's say Whites knew who they were and Blacks knew their place. That's the best I can explain.	3:53
Stacey Scales	Where did you go for entertainment, to shop or just to get out?	4:21
Benjamin Perry	Well, there wasn't any entertainment, not for Blacks.	4:41
Stacey Scales	[indistinct 00:04:42].	4:41
Benjamin Perry	Juke joints [indistinct 00:04:42]. The relationship, Blacks knew who they were, knew their place. We had some good college administrators who tried to keep the lid on things during those days.	4:43
Stacey Scales	Did your father or any family members ever talk about stories that may have survived about slavery?	5:08
Benjamin Perry	I'm not too conscious about slavery other than the fact that maybe the cotton and corn and syrup, I mean, not syrup, sugar cane and things that were growing in this community kind of brought slavery into being since Blacks did most of the work.	5:11
Stacey Scales	When did you first realize that there was a system [indistinct 00:05:47]?	5:43
Benjamin Perry	When I became old enough. I don't know when that was. Maybe at—When are you conscious of your surroundings? Five, four? I remember one incident where, oh, when I was a child, where a White boy was in his car and spoke to me. And his mother snatched him in and bumped his head and he was crying. Her remark was, "You don't speak to niggers."	5:51
Stacey Scales	How'd you feel about that?	6:34
Benjamin Perry	Well, that was the system. That's all I can say.	6:38
Stacey Scales	You mentioned to her that you had a lot of early experiences. You want to share some of those?	6:40
Benjamin Perry	Well, maybe I can recount some of them. First of all, I was at Florida A&M, FAMU, FAMC. So all the changes I've been mostly a part of. If you want experience particularly, I'll just itemize a few that I can remember off of the top of my head. One was an incident on a Pullman train where I went to the dining room and there was no other seat. Since Blacks were segregated on the train, there was no other seat available. So I sat near the White man, and he was very uncomfortable and ended up saying he wasn't going to sit by a nigger.	6:49
Benjamin Perry	So I remember that distinctly. There were some incidents that happened maybe when I was growing up. But because I was a part of a system, I probably don't remember too much about the segregation because it was a way of life for me and for long years. I cannot, all I can do is cite some other instances maybe that I was insulted, at least made knowledgeable that I was Black. I remember distinctly, even after segregation really, a White professor at Cornell mentioned the fact—We had a field trip and of course I was a part of the class of Whites. Someone asked, say, "Well, what are those buildings?" Before he recognized it, he said, "Nigger shacks."	8:04
Stacey Scales	Was this part of an African display or something like that?	9:36
Benjamin Perry	Hell, no, this was a part of some farm, a farm, yeah, up in New York. So here this man was saying that "These were nigger shacks." So it meant that that's where they lived, the people who may have been, what's it called, imported from the islands or from the South or wherever. This was where they lived. Very poor circumstances, poor physical facilities.	9:38
Stacey Scales	Were there any other Black students in the class?	10:24
Benjamin Perry	Nope. It was in agricultural economics. So there were no other students. But he said it before he realized it, and he caught himself, but it was too late.	10:27
Stacey Scales	[indistinct 00:10:42].	10:40
Benjamin Perry	Yeah.	10:43
Stacey Scales	Did that happen quite a bit?	10:43
Benjamin Perry	Not too much at Cornell, except that at Cornell there was some incidents of you could not go to the facilities in Ithaca because of the remnants of racism. If you wanted to go to the Veterans Club or something like that, that was strictly Black, you could go there. But I can remember that.	10:47
Stacey Scales	Do you remember the community that you were in? Were you around Florida A&M?	11:31
Benjamin Perry	I was around Florida A&M most of my life. So I guess I was in somewhat of a sheltered community. Because some of the things that went on, I was not exposed to.	11:38
Stacey Scales	Did you ever go to Frenchtown?	11:57
Benjamin Perry	Yes. Frenchtown, as it was defined, was an area in, and I guess you'd call it just a little central of Tallahassee. Tallahassee was not expanded as it was now. But Frenchtown was a neighborhood where Blacks gathered and did some shopping with the businesses in that area.	11:58
Stacey Scales	How was it? Was it a place where a whole lot of people visited?	12:34
Benjamin Perry	Oh yeah, they were crowded. In fact, if you go by there now, you see remnants of it, where they hang around at the whiskey store. Not the whiskey store, but a bar.	12:37
Stacey Scales	Oh, yeah. Do you remember the names of any of the places that used to be there?	12:51
Benjamin Perry	Well, Crump's Store has been there for quite some time, and it's still there. The Red Bird Café, and Sykes Suit and Shoe Shop. Oh, a few that I can remember.	12:57
Stacey Scales	Did most people own their houses, or did they rent?	13:14
Benjamin Perry	As again I've said, I've been sheltered. Most of the people owned their houses or tried to own them. There was at one time a lot of rental property. Mr. Stottlemyer, who was the chief of police, owned any number of houses back at Barnes subdivision where Blacks stayed. Of course, they were, well, they were just shacks.	13:21
Stacey Scales	In your travels through the South to Cornell and to other places in the North, was it difficult to travel on the highways during that time?	13:57
Benjamin Perry	Yes, because of the fact that transportation, well, first of all, you had to find somewhere who would serve you gas. Some filling stations that you went just didn't serve niggers. They'd tell you to go someplace else. You might find a filling station that would serve your needs, but you had to look for it.	14:09
Stacey Scales	How could you tell that?	14:39
Benjamin Perry	You don't, you just had to look for it. In other travels, I remember my father and my uncle and I made a trip down South. My uncle was from Indiana, so he was a little bit more forward than we were. He told Daddy to stop, "Let's go in here and eat." So we say, "You can't eat in there." And he said, "Why?" I said, well, we couldn't explain why he couldn't eat.	14:41
Benjamin Perry	We started in there, my dad and I, and somebody spoke to us and said, "Well, hey, hey, hey, where you going?" Then my uncle spoke up and said, "What's the trouble?" In other words, "What's your trouble?" He had a lot of Indian in him, and they didn't know who, what we were. But anyhow, we went on in. But they soon put us out. Yeah. So he found out firsthand that you couldn't eat in all those places. You usually had to find a Black motel or a Black restaurant to eat.	15:26
Stacey Scales	How did word get around [indistinct 00:16:14]?	16:11
Benjamin Perry	You'd find a way, you'd find somewhere. Usually in terms of your travel, information was available as to where the Black stores were. Most times they were segregated and on the other side of the railroad, so you could, wasn't too difficult to find.	16:15
Stacey Scales	The incident that you talked about with your uncle from Indiana. What year did that happen?	16:46
Benjamin Perry	Oh gosh, man, I have no idea. Let's say, '40, '39. Somewhere in there. I don't know.	16:49
Stacey Scales	Do you remember how it was during the Depression?	17:01
Benjamin Perry	Yes. Once again, I led a sheltered life. Because my father worked at A&M and that's the one thing he provided was food out of his paycheck, which the highest he received was $200 a month during his working years. But to answer your question, I was sheltered to that extent that I did have meals, my mother liked to cook my meals, and I just didn't have to go hustle for myself.	17:14
Stacey Scales	Did you see anybody else having to change their lifestyle because of hard times?	17:54
Benjamin Perry	All of us, in a sense. It's just hard to depict the trauma that was going through during those days of depression. Blacks were the last hired and the first fired. So most of them, if they got a job they tried to keep it.	18:01
Stacey Scales	What was your first job?	18:34
Benjamin Perry	Was working on the A&M farm as a farm hand. Students could, they hired students. So yeah, we had to work.	18:34
Stacey Scales	Was church mandatory when you were coming up?	18:57
Benjamin Perry	Well, it all depends on what you mean. We went to church. In fact, most I've been to Bethel AME that's down here on the corner, now Wanish Way and Orange Avenue, but it was over on Virginia Street, West Virginia Street. But you didn't ask me that. I usually went there. But A&M ever since, oh, I don't know, from the days of, well, I remember Young Administration. But I was not a college student until 1936. But we all had to go to chapel daily and vespers on Sundays.	18:59
Stacey Scales	Did people ever talked about spirits and things like that in the neighborhood?	20:01
Benjamin Perry	What you mean, spirits?	20:07
Stacey Scales	Like superstitions.	20:07
Benjamin Perry	Oh, yeah. Those were rumors all the time. You had to grow up with them. So I can't relate any particular incident, but they were very prominent in terms of their superstitions and what have you.	20:11
Stacey Scales	So a lot of people believed in that sort of thing?	20:30
Benjamin Perry	Yeah, I would say they did, but I can't place too much of that either because I wasn't exposed to it.	20:34
Stacey Scales	Right. In your neighborhood, were places you weren't allowed to go or were there places that you wouldn't go?	20:47
Benjamin Perry	Well, now, you talking about the White places?	20:51
Stacey Scales	That, or—	20:51
Benjamin Perry	Well, you just didn't go, well, you could go in most if you wanted to buy something, but you'd be treated as a second-class citizen anywhere. Now at a Black store, of course you could go into them very freely if you wanted to. Most of them were not too well kept. They were a few that were well kept, good businessmen. But things that I can remember, the jukes and things, which I didn't visit, but I knew they were around.	21:00
Stacey Scales	Do you remember the first signs of change in the area?	22:08
Benjamin Perry	Well, I remember this White man telling me in 19—When was the Civil Rights Act passed?	22:08
Stacey Scales	'63, '65.	22:26
Benjamin Perry	It looked like it was earlier than that when something happened. Did anything happen in '50, '55?	22:27
Stacey Scales	1954, Brown versus the Board of Education, 1954.	22:28
Benjamin Perry	Yeah. Well, maybe this was a little afterwards. I remember a contractor telling me that there's no way that the courts can make us accept niggers as equal. He told me that, right before my face.	22:35
Stacey Scales	What did you tell him?	22:55
Benjamin Perry	Huh? What could I tell him? Just looked at him and laughed.	22:57
Stacey Scales	Were there any times where you confronted people?	23:02
Benjamin Perry	Oh, there've been many times, I can't say just what occasions. You always have to kind of say whatever your beliefs are. But on the other hand, I can also remember in Quincy, when I was working over in Quincy at the Stevens High School, and I had a flat tire. So I managed to get the car to a filling station. The man asked me some questions, and then he asked me where was my car and whatnot. Then all at once he had picked up a jack and was starting for me. I said, "What's your problem?" He said, "We don't have that 'yes and no' shit here." In other words, I was supposed to call, say, "Yes, sir. No, sir." So that was again having a sheltered life. That wasn't a part of my upbringing, and especially in Quincy.	23:07
Stacey Scales	Did he hit you with it?	24:40
Benjamin Perry	No, he didn't do that. But he might have, if I hadn't detected what was wrong with him. But he was, I guess, outraged at this uppity nigger telling him yes and no.	24:43
Stacey Scales	Do you remember the separate fountain?	25:08
Benjamin Perry	Oh yeah. That's part of life. I grew up with them. So don't ask me no more.	25:09
Stacey Scales	You never tried—	25:17
Benjamin Perry	You had White water and Black water.	25:17
Stacey Scales	Did you ever try the other color, the White water?	25:20
Benjamin Perry	Well, I knew it was the same.	25:26
Stacey Scales	Knew it's the same.	25:27
Benjamin Perry	Yeah.	25:31
Stacey Scales	When did you start seeing things get better? Because you recognize things get better?	25:35
Benjamin Perry	I don't know. I can't depict a time when, well, I guess things have gotten better lately, but in the early days, the times you want me to think about, you were a nigger wherever you were. This was more or less inferred if it wasn't said. So we grew up trying to avoid confrontation.	25:42
Stacey Scales	Did you notice a difference between the North and the South?	26:21
Benjamin Perry	Wasn't that much difference. They said that the North had more freedom and many Blacks migrated to the North because maybe they could get jobs or whatnot. But to me, you take in Indiana, there was just all kinds of segregation up in Indiana. And in Iowa, in Des Moines, that was back in 1941, there was just segregation out of this world in Des Moines.	26:24
Stacey Scales	Do you remember a lot of the images that they would portray for Black folks?	27:21
Benjamin Perry	Oh, you heard so much of that until you almost forget it. But naturally we were portrayed as not human beings or monkeys or whatever.	27:26
Stacey Scales	How'd you feel about that?	27:42
Benjamin Perry	Oh, no, you just resented it to high heaven, and most times, some of them would tell jokes. Of course, if you could, you'd just get out of the way so that you couldn't, be confronted with these jokes.	27:45
Stacey Scales	White folks would say them?	28:06
Benjamin Perry	Yeah.	28:08
Stacey Scales	How did you get your news [indistinct 00:28:15]?	28:12
Benjamin Perry	Well, you had, I think it was the Pittsburgh Courier.	28:17
Stacey Scales	Oh, yeah?	28:21
Benjamin Perry	Yeah.	28:23
Stacey Scales	That was a Black newspaper?	28:24
Benjamin Perry	Which was a Black newspaper out of, up North. And I think it came out once a week. So you'd have that. You also had some state newspaper that might come out once a week.	28:33
Stacey Scales	[indistinct 00:28:47].	28:44
Benjamin Perry	But you could always buy a White newspaper. Nobody, I mean that was merchandise that you could buy. So you knew what was going on in the world because of the White newspaper.	28:48
Stacey Scales	How about local news? How did that get in?	29:07
Benjamin Perry	Well, that's what I'm talking about. Yeah. You could find out what's going on by the local newspaper. The Tallahassee Democrat. I couldn't tell you when it really opened up, but it was available for years. My father could buy it, and you could read the news.	29:09
Stacey Scales	Was there ever a crisis in the community where people had to get together?	29:43
Benjamin Perry	Oh, man. I don't want to talk about it because as dean of men and the dean of students, the students were in a crisis or did raise a crisis. I tried to keep them, did the best I could to keep them out of jail. Because they would put them in jail in a minute.	29:50
Stacey Scales	You mean in a protest?	30:17
Benjamin Perry	Anything else, any kind of confrontation or whatnot. The jail was the proper place to put you if you were uppity nigger. So I spent a lot of time as dean of men and dean of students trying to keep students out of jail.	30:19
Stacey Scales	And a lot of that was unfair?	30:38
Benjamin Perry	Oh yeah, I guess, you want to call it unfair. Now that's an unfair question. Yes, it was unfair. But yet I had to deal with it to get, so students could continue their education.	30:40
Stacey Scales	What type of things did they have to [indistinct 00:31:01]?	31:00
Benjamin Perry	Well, for an example, I know a man now who's a lawyer who was arrested over at FSU, and they said he was a peeping Tom. He was arrested and put in jail, and then they wanted to accuse him of molesting a White woman.	31:05
Stacey Scales	He was in school here? [indistinct 00:31:30]	31:27
Benjamin Perry	Yeah, he was in school. Actually I had to make arrangements for him to get out of town, because the sheriff was telling me what they were planning.	31:30
Stacey Scales	What were they planning?	31:45
Benjamin Perry	To lynch him. I had to get him out of those circumstances, get him out of the way.	31:48
Stacey Scales	So where'd you send him?	31:53
Benjamin Perry	Huh?	31:53
Stacey Scales	You sent him up North?	31:53
Benjamin Perry	No, I sent him to Jacksonville, anywhere to get him out of town. They didn't know I had, I got some student drivers or students that had cars back in those days to take him. Then of course we had to pay that transportation.	32:01
Stacey Scales	What was his name?	32:25
Benjamin Perry	Oh, come on. I don't know that. I wouldn't tell the man's name because he's a prominent lawyer.	32:25
Stacey Scales	Okay, understood. Were there a lot of cases like that where people had to leave?	32:38
Benjamin Perry	Well, I don't know that there were a lot of cases, but they did have quite a few conflicts there with Blacks and those White girls. See, one time it was a women's college, FSU was a women's college. They were very sensitive about Blacks even walking through there.	32:39
Stacey Scales	So you couldn't even go over there?	32:58
Benjamin Perry	No, no. Uh-uh.	32:58
Stacey Scales	Because of your family status within the community and within the institution, were there ever White folks that got jealous or maybe even Black folks [indistinct 00:33:23]?	33:11
Benjamin Perry	Well, I think maybe they were jealous or whatnot, but I don't think it was that much contact between the Black and the White, that if there was some feeling, it was among them and not expressed among us.	33:29
Stacey Scales	Oh, okay. So not really.	33:48
Benjamin Perry	No, it wasn't. Well, I can't say that there is now, but it's just not that much, there wasn't that much communication among—Now you would get a few people who would be friendly and some of those were real good. There was a man, Atcheson, I believe, or something, who was a friend to my father and they could sit down and talk. But that was unusual.	33:53
Stacey Scales	[indistinct 00:34:30]?	34:27
Benjamin Perry	Yeah.	34:30
Stacey Scales	So there wasn't any interaction between Florida State and [indistinct 00:34:35]?	34:30
Benjamin Perry	Oh no, it wasn't any interaction. In fact, I guess, oh, I don't know what years, but it's been in the sixties, since the sixties.	34:34
Stacey Scales	So that was the first time there was some type of connection, the sixties?	34:48
Benjamin Perry	Oh, I want to say yes.	34:54
Stacey Scales	When you were growing up here, did they ever teach African-American history or pride?	35:01
Benjamin Perry	We were taught pride. Most of the presidents, that was instilled in just because we were Black, we were not inferior. I mean, see, going to chapel and listening to the speakers that you had every day. On Sundays, of course the president, especially J.R.E. Lee, Senior, would speak to us on Sunday. He brought out all kinds of things in those vesper messages. But you were informed, and it was where you'd have to appreciate what vesper was like. You could hear good singing, good music. Of course I was in the symphonic band that played there every day in chapel. That's the only way I could get out of having a seat. Because otherwise you had an assigned seat and you had to sit in it.	35:11
Stacey Scales	Did the band travel?	36:26
Benjamin Perry	Not too much back in, oh, it's just been a recent occurrence where the band could go anywhere. See, there was a time when you just, if you carried the band, you had to make arrangements for them to be fed. You couldn't just walk into Morrisons or someplace like that.	36:36
Stacey Scales	Oh yeah? Did you run into that with the band, segregation?	36:56
Benjamin Perry	Well, I'm sure you'd have to talk to Mr. Foster about that. I'm sure he ran into it back in the early days.	37:02
Stacey Scales	He was the band teacher?	37:09
Benjamin Perry	Yeah. Band master, I call him.	37:11
Stacey Scales	Band master.	37:16
Benjamin Perry	Yeah. Dr. Foster, W. P. Foster.	37:17
Stacey Scales	Is he still [indistinct 00:37:28]?	37:26
Benjamin Perry	Yes, and very active.	37:27
Stacey Scales	Okay. So you said you went to Cornell and then you went to the military?	37:36
Benjamin Perry	I went to Iowa State and got my Master's degree. In 1942 I was in the Army. I stayed in the Army for about four and a half years.	37:42
Stacey Scales	Did you run into segregation?	38:09
Benjamin Perry	Oh, sure. Yes. But a West Pointer spotted me and told me he was going to send me to OCS. He was White, but I'd been in the Black outfits, Corps of Engineers and had run into all kinds of crackers who were in, I mean, White folks who had been in charge. Of course even in the Army, I had some incidents that I had to fight. I can't tell you about all the personal incidents, but I'll just tell you one, where a man went over in the Army, White who went over to a White company to get somebody to help fix some equipment in Saipan.	38:11
Benjamin Perry	When he came back, I mean, I was a lieutenant, I was in charge of some men, so I knew that he'd gone to get these Whites to repair this equipment. It was evident that he didn't think Blacks could do it. He ordered me to send some fellas up there to help them lift that equipment. And I just didn't do it. Of course I was [indistinct 00:39:53] for a court martial. Because I was disobeying his orders.	39:18
Stacey Scales	[indistinct 00:40:00] for court martial?	39:50
Benjamin Perry	He was going to court martial. The only reason I wasn't court martialed, the medical officer who was from up North said, "Hell, ain't no point in you staying here. I'm going to send you by ship back to the States."	40:04
Stacey Scales	So he didn't think Blacks were smart enough to put this mechanism—	40:16
Benjamin Perry	No.	40:21
Stacey Scales	But you knew that you could fix it.	40:21
Benjamin Perry	Oh, at least we could have tried. And of course just for use us to be the manpower to lift. No, I just couldn't let my men see that in me.	40:28
Stacey Scales	Right.	40:37
Benjamin Perry	To me, I just had too much pride in myself.	40:38
Stacey Scales	So do you think that they had a big egos to the extent where they—	40:40
Benjamin Perry	Who, Whites? They've had egos all their life. So that's bad question.	40:48
Stacey Scales	Okay. You have anything else you'd like to share on the tape? Any experiences?	40:55
Benjamin Perry	No, I just don't have—There's so many things that I could say. See, I'm, what, 76, and there are a lot of things that in my lifetime that I've experienced and undergone that if I live with them all and I had a repertoire that I could not forget, then I'd be a miserable person. So it's best for me to move on.	41:08
Stacey Scales	Okay. Well, I'd like to thank you.	41:40
Benjamin Perry	Yeah, you're welcome.	41:43

Item Info

Title:

Benjamin Perry interview recording, 1994 July 29

Date:

July 29, 1994

Creator:

Perry, Benjamin

Contributor:

Scales, Mausiki Stacey

Description:

Name: Benjamin Perry; Date of birth: 1918-02-27; Place of birth: Eatonville, FL; Occupation(s): educator; university president; Residence: Tallahassee, FL
Informant ID: 404; Interviewed by: Stacey Scales.

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English

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Behind the Veil

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Behind the Veil: Documenting African American Life in the Jim Crow South interviews, photographs, and project records, circa 1864-2011, bulk 1990-2004

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The David M. Rubenstein Rare Book and Manuscript Library acquired the Records of the Behind the Veil Oral History Project from the Duke University Center for Documentary Studies in 1997, 1998, 2000, and 2002.

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Copyright for content created by the Behind the Veil project is held by Duke University and made available to the public using a Creative Commons Attribution / Non-commercial (CC-BY-NC) license.

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behindtheveil
d2e036ac-6d3e-48b3-b8f5-5bbb37a5f6fd
ark:/87924/r4qv3qd1w
d2e036ac-6d3e-48b3-b8f5-5bbb37a5f6fd

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Benjamin Perry interview recording, 1994 July 29

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1. Benjamin Perry administrative file, 1994

John Hope Franklin Research Center

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Benjamin Perry interview recording, 1994 July 29

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John Hope Franklin Research Center

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