Audrey Robertson interview recording, 1994 June 24
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| Kate Ellis | If you wouldn't mind, tell me your name. | 0:01 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | Long name, Audrey Freddie Mae Carr Robertson. | 0:06 |
| Kate Ellis | I'll just announce that it is June 24, 1994. This is Kate Ellis with Mrs. Audrey Robertson. Okay. So just before when we were off tape, you were saying that there's plenty that you remember of— | 0:12 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | During the time when the schools were integrated because I was part of the school system at that time. | 0:36 |
| Kate Ellis | Were you a principal? | 0:42 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | I was. | 0:43 |
| Kate Ellis | At which school? | 0:43 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | I was at McDonogh. I've been principal at Fisk, McDonogh 35, not McDonogh 35, McDonogh number 6, and Paul L. Dunbar School. At Paul L. Dunbar School, that was a special time in my life because I had been a teacher at Paul L. Dunbar 25 years, and I went back there for principalship. That closes out my experiences with the New Orleans Public School system in that way. | 0:47 |
| Kate Ellis | That Was the last place where you— | 1:23 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | Yes. | 1:25 |
| Kate Ellis | —were a principal? | 1:25 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | That's right. | 1:26 |
| Kate Ellis | Having taught earlier there for 25 years. | 1:26 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | I began my teaching career there. My first teaching assignment was at Paul L. Dunbar School. When I left Paul L. Dunbar School as a teacher, I became a principal at Abijah Fisk Elementary School. | 1:29 |
| Kate Ellis | What was it called? What was it? | 1:43 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | Abijah Fisk, F-I-S-K. And then I went to a McDonogh school, McDonogh number 6. I was at Abijah Fisk School about three years, McDonogh 6 about two, and then to Dunbar. I had been teaching there 25 years. But I went back to Dunbar, and I was principal six or seven years, about seven. | 1:45 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | During the integration process. I was at Dunbar school. I jotted down because I wanted to share with you of Fifi. I had such a good experience with Fifi. That's a White lady, a Caucasian who came to our school to work. It was a trying time for a lot of people. They had to decide whether they would want to go or whether they would just be sent. Fifi, from her school, was one person who said that she would go in. she adjusted well to our school situation. Parents liked her. | 2:24 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | I think it was for two years she was with us. Then she could decide whether to remain. She chose to go back to her own school, not that she had a bad experience, but she just chose to be where, I guess, there was less stress to go back. But she and I have remained friendly. I write a Christmas letter to friends all the time. She's always on my list to receive one. She writes an Easter letter, and I always receive one from her, and she tells me about her experiences. | 3:04 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | When she had her 50th birthday, I went to her birthday party, and I had met her mother. That was a good experience. But I had some good experience. I'm not talking to you about before— | 3:43 |
| Kate Ellis | Well, that's okay. | 3:57 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | —African American. | 3:58 |
| Kate Ellis | We can— | 3:59 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | Because I thought about another experience. One trying thing as principal, trying to bring about a good adjustment between the Caucasian teachers and the Black teachers. It was a real challenge because we had so much to do as Black teachers trying to help our children with whatever weaknesses and figures they were from home. Very often the White teachers had not felt they had to do that much. Then we had Black teachers who had been willing to do that much. | 4:00 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | But now if you had coworkers who were doing less, then they didn't feel want to be imposed on to do that. You wanted to make it work out, and making it work out was really not easy, making it work out. Getting people to go beyond the call of duty was difficult. But with all, we had some good relationships. At the luncheon last Saturday, I saw one of the teachers who had been with me, a Caucasian, and she always says, she and her husband, that I helped keep her in the system. | 4:44 |
| Kate Ellis | [indistinct 00:05:45]— | 5:44 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | Because it was difficult and she felt like giving up because we had persons who were deliberately fighting their teachers because of no other reason than teachers were White. | 5:45 |
| Kate Ellis | You mean Black students were? | 5:56 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | Yeah. I mean attitude toward the teachers wasn't good, sometimes parents' attitude towards them, the parents. Having been on the receiving end of injustice and unkindness, there was not any love in some cases. But in some cases, there was. When I was at Dunbar School, there was some students from Tulane who came to play with boys after school for a period. That was very good. There were a young man who worked with us who had a difficult time working with the children, and he was somebody with a heart of gold that I was very fond of. I often wonder what happened to this young man. | 5:58 |
| Kate Ellis | He was a young White man? | 6:53 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | White, yes. Uh-huh. | 6:53 |
| Kate Ellis | Who came to work with, you said with students? | 6:53 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | No, he was one of the regular teachers who was assigned to work at the school. But I'm missing another experience was students who came from Tulane and worked after school, played games with the children. | 6:53 |
| Kate Ellis | Just stepping back for a minute, when you were working to make integration work, when that was your job, what year was that? Because I know that there were different years that schools —Was it '63 or? | 7:07 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | Let me see, I— | 7:25 |
| Kate Ellis | Or around? | 7:25 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | Wait a minute. I retired in '78. So that must have been '69, '70. | 7:28 |
| Kate Ellis | Oh. But it was— | 7:37 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | Must have been. Let me see. Principalship began in 1965. I came to Dunbar '72, I think. No, it must have been '70, around ''69, '70. | 7:39 |
| Kate Ellis | Oh, so that's when it was desegregating? | 7:58 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | Yeah. The superintendent felt if we weren't going to get the desegregation in the student population, we could get it in the faculty. | 8:01 |
| Kate Ellis | I see. So some— | 8:15 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | He worked at it from that. | 8:15 |
| Kate Ellis | So some White faculty members had to go to— | 8:18 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | To Black schools. | 8:22 |
| Kate Ellis | —Black schools, and Black teachers had to go to some White schools. | 8:24 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | White schools. | 8:25 |
| Kate Ellis | I see. I see. | 8:25 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | That's the kind of experiences we had. | 8:25 |
| Kate Ellis | So you had a lot of— | 8:25 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | Not a lot. | 8:25 |
| Kate Ellis | —of mediating to do? | 8:25 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | Yeah, a lot of mediating. I thought you were going to say a lot of —Because you didn't have a lot of persons to come, but we had to work it out. | 8:26 |
| Kate Ellis | But you sound like you had a few people. | 8:40 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | Yeah. That's right. Yeah. I had a few to come. And then you had to work with your faculty to try to receive them and try to help them as much as possible. Our school was accredited at a time when we had the Whites. Some of them did nicely in helping us with the things that had to be done. | 8:42 |
| Kate Ellis | To get accredited? | 9:05 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | That's right. Some worked very well. We had some who stayed home when they wished to and all that kind of stuff. | 9:06 |
| Kate Ellis | They didn't cooperate? | 9:19 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | Yeah. | 9:20 |
| Kate Ellis | Let me just ask you before you move on, something you said that was really interesting, which was that at least before White teachers came into the school, many Black teachers were accustomed to really helping those students— | 9:23 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | Doing more things. And then they began seeing how, well, this is the way that other people live. They don't do all of this. | 9:38 |
| Kate Ellis | What sorts of things did they do before things— | 9:44 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | It's giving of time after school with programs. One lady who's now deceased, Black, gave a lot of time with her Girl Scouts. But she continued with that because that was her heart. She wanted to do that. But you had a number of different clubs and whatnot. But we had Caucasians who didn't take to being assigned things like that. Then you see the union began being strong because I remember having a novice teacher who wasn't so grateful. | 9:47 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | She was representing the union, and the union was saying that you can have only so many minutes of time that you could give after school. Nobody else said it but me, but I've always said, "Teaching children was not like putting macaroni in a box or putting food in a can that you could take just so many hours of this and no more." So doing duty was always a problem when the schools were all Black, I guess, and all White because people didn't want to give as much time. | 10:25 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | But the union began wishing to give less and less time. See, on rainy days when the children couldn't go out to play, the demand for the teachers to use their energies in keeping the children occupied and playing in quiet type of things was very hard to manage. Rainy days were very hard on the principal because they had to be moving all around, trying to make things go on rainy days. | 11:05 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | When it wasn't rainy days and you had the children spread out and the teachers spread out in their assignments to them, it was different. But it was too many children for the basement when you had that many of them in there. Children wanted to run, and the basement wasn't the right place to run. They couldn't run out in the yard. Things that we considered important a long time ago, don't cross the yard, don't walk across the yard, walk on the walkway, people didn't find that it's important. | 11:33 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | Trying to encourage children to eat the food, eat the vegetables when they had lunch period and whatnot, that wasn't just Black or just White. Some teachers just didn't think it was important. | 12:14 |
| Kate Ellis | Do you mean new teachers coming in didn't think it was important? | 12:27 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | Sometimes. | 12:31 |
| Kate Ellis | As opposed to— | 12:33 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | See, that was your duty. There was different ways in which people did their duties. Some people just walked up and down. And then some people encouraged the children to eat the food because you were trying to teach them about good nutrition, and you wanted them to eat their food. It wasn't important to all persons. Then some people didn't do as much because, throughout it all, there was the Black/White issue. | 12:34 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | Some people didn't do it throughout it all because they were dedicated people or not, so it wasn't always a Black/White thing. It was how dedicated, how much you cared about the children, how much you were willing to give because there had been a time at Dunbar on a Saturday, we had a rehearsal for our play, and nobody was getting paid on Saturday. Once while I was at Dunbar, the sheriff's department had their inmates to come and paint. I had parents who were willing to come. A few teachers came. | 13:03 |
| Kate Ellis | To fix up the school? | 13:50 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | That's right. That's right. | 13:58 |
| Kate Ellis | Were the facilities at Black schools not— | 14:03 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | Equal? | 14:11 |
| Kate Ellis | —yeah, equal to those of White schools? | 14:11 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | No. Since I knew what we were going to talk about it, one day when something occurred to me, I wrote it down. I put down how we experienced Jim Crow. Now, about the schools, no, the schools were not the same. I was at Dunbar School, which was a frame building. But while I was a teacher at Dunbar school, we did get a library, and that was a brick building. It was while I was principal that we had that frame building painted by the inmates from the prison. | 14:13 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | At some time later, not only did we get the library, we got a principal's office. But that came before my principalship. We got a whole new section with restrooms for the teachers. But when I first began at that school, we went upstairs. The principal's office was upstairs in that frame building because that was all there was to it was that frame building. When Fifi was with us, Fifi is the White lady that I said I remained friendly, she was in the frame building. | 15:02 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | When I was a teacher, I was in that frame building. I didn't ever have an assignment in the new building. The school had a large population at one time and, aside from that, we had extra building. I've forgotten what they call those buildings. Portables. They had portables. Now, I remember during integration process being greatly disturbed. I had a White teacher who I thought would work out well, but somebody higher up rescued her from Dunbar. That's all I can say. | 15:46 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | Well, gave her a choice between Dunbar and at Lafayette, which was a better school, it was. Everybody wanted to take it. She was a beginning teacher. That was that. We had gotten her adjusted and whatnot, but that did not work. So many of them made changes. We had problems with the discipline, but sometimes the Blacks had problems with the discipline. But sometimes the problems with discipline was because it was a deliberate desire to provoke the White teachers. Children did that. I don't know what kind of talking was being done to them at home. | 16:23 |
| Kate Ellis | To the students— | 17:12 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | Children. | 17:12 |
| Kate Ellis | —who were provoking the— | 17:12 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | That's right. | 17:12 |
| Kate Ellis | —the White teacher? | 17:12 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | I don't know to what extent parents were cooperating with the program. Some were. Some were, and some weren't. That's all it is to that. But before, as a student, I went to Thomy Lafon. | 17:12 |
| Kate Ellis | Now Thomy Lafon was elementary? | 17:35 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | Elementary. Well, I'd gone to an elementary before that. Arthur P. Williams was my first public school. For a short while, I had been in the Lutheran school for first, second, third. When I went to Arthur P. Williams, I was in fourth grade. They skipped you. I got skipped to fourth grade when I went to Arthur P. Williams. My third grade teacher at the Lutheran school said, "Ask them to try you in the fourth grade." So we tried, and I stayed in the fourth grade. Then I left there and went to Thomy Lafon. That teacher said, "Tell them to try you in the fifth grade." | 17:36 |
| Kate Ellis | Really? | 18:20 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | So I got tried in the fifth grade, and I made out all right. I stayed in the fifth grade and the sixth grade at Thomy Lafon and finished in the seventh grade. I was told, "Why don't you go on and skip 7A," we had to have 7B and 7A, "and go on to Hoffman for eight?" But I told them I didn't want to. I stayed with my class. So then I went to junior high. | 18:21 |
| Kate Ellis | At Hoffman? | 18:46 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | At Hoffman School Junior High. Now, at Hoffman School I can well remember the classrooms were crowded, so crowded that you might not have a desk. You might sit next to someone with a desk, but your books were on the floor. We never had new books. I know all of that. We never had new books. Always when a new set of books were brought into the system, we received books that were the old books, and the White people received the books that were the new books. | 18:47 |
| Kate Ellis | So you got the White students' old books? | 19:31 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | That's right, and we kept the old books. That was always the case. As I said, the rooms were crowded. When I was at McDonogh 35 High School, that was the same thing. I still remember those extra seats when you were sitting on the side. McDonogh 35 had no cafeteria. McDonogh 35 was on Rampart Street at that time. Our principal would let the boys go out, but not the girls. We didn't go out in the street because we ate lunch in there. You just sat around. | 19:33 |
| Kate Ellis | So you brought some food with you to eat? | 20:24 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | Yeah. Brought your lunch and you sat around the building, the yard. There wasn't much of a yard at McDonogh 35. After that, I went to Valena C. Jones Normal school. That was also a public school. | 20:25 |
| Kate Ellis | What Jones? | 20:44 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | Valena. | 20:45 |
| Kate Ellis | Valena. | 20:45 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | C Jones. That's for teacher training. Out of your high school class, five persons were chosen to go to teacher training, Valena C. Jones. I happened to be one of the five. So I was able to go there. I guess other people went to college who could. Praise God, I would have never have been able to work college. | 20:46 |
| Kate Ellis | So you wouldn't have been able to come to college? | 21:11 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | Oh, no. I went to Valena C. Jones. If you went to Valena C. Jones Normal School for two years, you received a teaching certificate, and I received my teaching certificate. When I got a job, I could pay for the remainder of my schooling. | 21:14 |
| Kate Ellis | What year was it that you got your teaching certificate? | 21:25 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | I must have got it in 1937. | 21:27 |
| Kate Ellis | Okay. I think you're saying that you couldn't go to college at the time because you couldn't afford it? | 21:35 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | I couldn't afford it. My mother did housework. My stepfather worked for the railroad. There was very little money. | 21:44 |
| Kate Ellis | So you were saying that when you got your teaching certificate, you got a job teaching after that? | 22:05 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | Yeah. Well, you didn't get a job that fast either. You watched to see who would get appointed. The young lady who finished first in my class, I'm still friendly with her. She's in a nursing home just as of October of this past October. Marjorie got an assignment for long-term sub work. Then she moved from there. She was there I don't know how long, a few weeks maybe. It might be a couple of months. Then I got the same assignment that she had. She got appointed to a position, a job. Then later on, I got appointed to a job. | 22:09 |
| Kate Ellis | And that was to Dunbar? | 22:56 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | Yeah. | 22:56 |
| Kate Ellis | Your first job. | 22:56 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | That was my first job. That was at Dunbar. I finished in '37. I think it was '38 I got this appointment. | 23:00 |
| Kate Ellis | Excuse me. | 23:14 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | Well, we had large classes. I think about my largest, I don't know, I think it was 42. | 23:18 |
| Kate Ellis | You taught large classes? | 23:27 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | That's right. Some things are hazy. We had classes as large as 66. I remember [indistinct 00:23:38], I believe they had 70, something like that. But we had large classes. Others did not have classes that large. I became a part of the New Orleans League of Classroom Teachers. The New Orleans League of Classroom Teachers was predecessor to the union. Yet, I'm a mild person, and I haven't always been in sync with the union. But we worked for equal pay for Black teachers, the classroom teachers did. I used to be secretary of that little organization. | 23:31 |
| Kate Ellis | When did that— | 24:31 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | Incidentally, the lady who was president of it and worked hard with Black workers was at the affair Saturday. | 24:32 |
| Kate Ellis | President of the— | 24:40 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | New Orleans League of Classroom Teachers. | 24:42 |
| Kate Ellis | Who was that? | 24:44 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | Ms. Brown, Veronica Brown. She was sitting at Ms. Lundy's table. Ms. Lundy was one of the honorees. | 24:45 |
| Kate Ellis | When was the New Orleans League of Classroom Teachers formed? | 24:53 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | I don't remember that. I don't remember. But I just know that, as a young teacher, I did join that. One of our classmates was the plaintiff in the suit. One of my Valena C. Jones Normal School classmates, who is now deceased, just deceased about three or four years, was plaintiff for equal salaries. But that was our cry that we got less pay. | 24:58 |
| Kate Ellis | That was in the '40s that she brought the suit? | 25:39 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | It was a man, by the way. I don't know why I don't know what was that date. I don't know what was that date. Because I started working in '38, I got my assignment. So it had to be in the '40s. The equalization was '54. | 25:43 |
| Kate Ellis | Right. | 26:11 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | Yeah. | 26:12 |
| Kate Ellis | You mean the equalization, you mean? | 26:13 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | Brown. | 26:15 |
| Kate Ellis | Right. But what happened with the suit to get equal pay for Black teachers? | 26:16 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | Well, the suit was won. But I don't know why I don't have the date in mind. | 26:22 |
| Kate Ellis | I was just trying to get a general sense of what decade it took place. | 26:27 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | The suit was won. The suit was won. So that was a new time for us when the suit was won. Now, the union has worked for a decrease in student population. The union has worked for that over the years and always worked for teachers' salary. League of Classroom Teachers worked for things for equalization of salary. I don't guess they were militant as the union. The union came up with the tactics that unions used everywhere. | 26:30 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | They became more affiliated with the labor union. They became a part of the labor union. During my early years, you didn't see a teacher as a labor union thing. You saw it as more a mission, a service, a spirituality feeling of what should you do. When I was thinking about what happened before integration, I thought about in junior high school, I shall always remember I believe that I had a teacher named Gertrude Green who inspired us by telling us what Black people had accomplished and what it meant to follow in their footsteps. | 27:20 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | She would see that we learned Lift Every Voice and Sing. She'd try to see that you learned to sing it. At that time, we called Lift Every Voice and Sing the National Negro Anthem. Now, some people stand up every time it's played. I have learned, and some others have learned, when it's a special selection sung by a group as they perform to you, you don't need to stand up to that. But so many people stand up anyway. They just stand up. | 28:13 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | So you have to make up your mind whether you're going to not stand up and be disloyal. No wonder Blacks have more high blood pressure than other people, truthfully, because so many things come up to give you a little stress. My husband was honored in October. National Negro College Fund, well, they honored him for community service. A group sang that number. He stood up. I didn't, because we don't need to. | 28:47 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | I noticed it's not the National Negro Anthem anymore because I decided, well, it's Lift Every Voice and Sing. Some of us us decided that. It's Lift Every Voice and Sing. That's what it is. It's a nice Negro hymn. Well, if you belong to the country and The Star-Spangled Banner is the country's song, well, it's your song. | 29:22 |
| Kate Ellis | That's your song? | 29:50 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | Yeah, it is your song. Yet, we have a special feeling for the —I know that's one thing the White teachers learned when they were at Dunbar School. Whether they learned all the words or not, they became familiar with that. They knew that because we used that on our programs. | 29:53 |
| Kate Ellis | What? Lift Every Voice— | 30:10 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | Lift Every Voice and Sing because we used that on our programs, and they learned that that was important to us. | 30:10 |
| Kate Ellis | Let me just clarify what you just said. Are you saying that some people argue that The Star-Spangled Banner, because it's the national anthem is African Americans' anthem and some say that Lift Every Voice and Sing is African Americans' anthem? | 30:17 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | Yes. | 30:36 |
| Kate Ellis | Is that what you're saying? | 30:36 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | Yes, that some people had felt that way. I guess they felt, most people, they have two. Maybe they feel they have two. But that's why they called it the national and stand when it's sung because they feel they have to stand for it. | 30:38 |
| Kate Ellis | It's ours— | 30:51 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | It's our song. They feel it's— | 30:52 |
| Kate Ellis | And others don't feel that it's— | 30:54 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | Well, it's our song, but not exclusively. It's not something that you have —I don't know how to explain it because I feel that I'm as concerned about Black issues as any person is. Well, I guess some people just don't know that if a special performance, some special arrangement is made and they're doing that for you, that you don't have to stand for it. But people feel that you have to stand up for it. It's like it's a loyalty. It's a show of loyalty to stand for it. | 30:55 |
| Kate Ellis | I see what you're saying. Right. And you're saying just because you sit down doesn't mean you're disloyal. | 31:42 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | That's right. | 31:48 |
| Kate Ellis | You just don't see that you need to stand for— | 31:48 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | For a performance when somebody, if you're having a concert and one of the concert numbers is an arrangement of Lift Every Voice and Sing, don't stand up for the concert arrangement of Lift Every Voice and Sing. No, no. | 31:56 |
| Kate Ellis | But if you're all going to sing it together like at Amistad— | 32:09 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | That's right. | 32:12 |
| Kate Ellis | —then everybody stood. | 32:13 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | Then you stand up. I felt that was time to stand up. Sometimes we open our program with that, and sometimes we close programs with that. | 32:14 |
| Kate Ellis | Before you go on to your next, I want to just ask you something else about the teacher that you had. You said you were in elementary school— | 32:26 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | Yes, I was. | 32:37 |
| Kate Ellis | —with that teacher, and she would teach you about what Blacks had accomplished? | 32:38 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | No, that was junior high. | 32:41 |
| Kate Ellis | Junior high? Okay, at [indistinct 00:32:43]— | 32:42 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | Junior high when I was at Hoffman Junior High. She was very strong in her presentations. I wouldn't have known who Mordecai Johnson was. She talked about him so much. When I was at Valena C. Jones Normal School, I had noticed Dillard's program for graduation. Only that day I discovered that Mordecai Johnson was going to speak at Dillard. I can remember this so well. I had a white dress on, which means I wasn't very great-looking by the end of the day. | 32:43 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | But I said, "Well, my dress is not that important. I will go to Dillard and hear Mordecai Johnson speak." He was the president of Howard University, and she had spoken to him. So we got exposed to knowledge about Blacks and encouraged to be successful and be strong in what we were going to do. Well, after I got my certificate, I did not have a college degree. I went to Southern University, of course, not this Southern University branch here because it wasn't in existence. | 33:22 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | But I went to Baton Rouge in the summer for Southern University. For chapel, always outstanding Blacks were brought, whoever had some high position in a university or who was an inventor or had done something great. We got exposed to them. Same thing happened at Valena C. Jones Normal School. That was an elementary school, too. That particular principal saw to it that the elementary children there and, of course, we who were in the normal exposed to it, too, got to know people of note in music and education and science and whatever. | 33:58 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | Southern University used to bring outstanding Blacks to the campus for chapel. That was a time when chapel was required, and now you choose whether you would go to chapel or not. I still feel that that's a mistake. In our desire to be free and not to impinge on people's rights, youngsters on the college campus, they don't go to chapel. They're not exposed to the best there is that we have to offer because, well, they don't have to go, and it's their choice not to go. So they don't know what they're missing. | 34:37 |
| Kate Ellis | Let me just ask you one more thing about the teacher at Hoffman. Did she talk much about segregation or about why it existed, I mean when she would tell you about the accomplishments and encourage you [indistinct 00:35:55]— | 35:30 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | I think she gave us some history, but I mainly remember her developing a character with her stories of people who had succeeded in life. My husband and I did not go to the same schools at all. He lived downtown, and I lived uptown. He said at downtown, when I tell him about going to Green uptown, he said Julia Herman did the same downtown. There was always somebody who cared a lot to tell you. I took some courses at Xavier University. David Jackson at Xavier University would try to encourage you to respect and look up to Blacks who had made accomplishments, make you desire to try to live a better life. | 35:57 |
| Kate Ellis | That's another question about getting old books, when you were in school, always getting the used books. | 36:59 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | Well, they always commented. Children commented on it. | 37:09 |
| Kate Ellis | What would— | 37:12 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | They would comment on. You see, there was a label for the books. Sometimes the labels were stamped in the books, and sometimes the labels were a separate sheet of paper that was pasted in the book, you see? They had the names of persons who had used them. So you always knew you had used books, and the children would comment about it. They would long to have new books. | 37:13 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | That was a new experience. I don't know when we first got new books. I don't know. It seemed like when I was in senior high school, we were still getting other books. I don't know to what extent we got new ones. I'm now 75. I'm forgetting. As of June 14th. | 37:40 |
| Kate Ellis | Really? | 38:00 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | Uh-huh. | 38:07 |
| Kate Ellis | [indistinct 00:38:08]. Happy birthday. | 38:07 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | Yeah. Yeah. Just 10 days ago. | 38:07 |
| Kate Ellis | Yeah. | 38:07 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | Well, what I remember about before integration was two things, one all-pervading thing. We talked about segregation and discrimination. Those two words went together, segregation and discrimination, and we talked about it a great deal. I can remember celebrating my wedding anniversary, which is August 12th, one year. I've now been married 51 years. | 38:11 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | But I remember my husband's in Philadelphia. He had gone there to study music because it was late in his life. But anyway, he had a good voice, and he went on and studied a little while. I was there that summer. See, I was teaching then, and I had finally gotten my degree. I can remember we had a party celebrating our anniversary. Well, at 12:00 in the morning, what were we discussing? Segregation and discrimination. | 38:50 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | I thought about at it parties when I was in my church on my way from choir. I'd think about, as youngsters, Mark Morris and Tara Morris and Harold are still living and others. What did we talk about? Segregation and discrimination. You always talk about it. They used to talk about having the screen on the public service bus. Actually, I wondered what the screen was before I finally found out that the screen was just this —It was a little piece of board that had on it —I don't know. It must have been For Colored Patrons on it. | 39:31 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | It must have had something. It's funny how I don't even remember the exact word the things had on it. But I think it might have had For Colored People on it, For Colored Only. It had some kind of screw, but it wasn't something that you screwed in, that you could stick in. It had some kind of little pointers you could stick it in a hole on grooves that were made on the back of the seat. You stuck it in there, and you knew you could sit behind that. | 40:11 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | You could only sit behind that. That was quite a while that went on because I had one of my friends from Philadelphia. That was long after I was married. One of my friends from Philadelphia came, and she was amazed at it. She said, "It's a screen," because she didn't have that in her experience. My son is now 50. But when my son and I were on the street, some different little instances you remember. We were on the streetcar once and standing over an empty seat. A White lady said, "Sit down. Let him sit down." I said, "No." I would not. | 40:47 |
| Kate Ellis | She was telling you to sit down? | 41:31 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | My son was with me, for to let my son sit down. But I didn't want it. I resented the fact that if that's the way it was, I wasn't going to do it because I just said no. They used to say sometimes, "Don't move the screen." But sometimes we would move them and sit, being there were empty seats. When there were seats available— | 41:34 |
| Kate Ellis | You would move the screen forward. | 41:58 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | —we would move the screen forward so you could sit in that empty seat. Sometimes we did that. | 42:00 |
| Kate Ellis | Did people ever object on the streetcar when you'd do that? Was it noticed? | 42:04 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | As long as you [indistinct 00:42:10]. People knew you did it. But as long as you were sitting there in the empty seat, they didn't —But if they were sitting, you couldn't sit beside them in a seat. But I used to say, "This is going to end. Just all of a sudden, this is going to be over." So when it was over, my husband said, "You said it was going to be." I said, "This is going to be over." I don't remember how it got over, just it was over. You had some who didn't sit with a Black for a while. They wouldn't sit. | 42:06 |
| Kate Ellis | Some Whites wouldn't? | 42:44 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | Yeah. | 42:44 |
| Kate Ellis | In the beginning? | 42:44 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | Yeah, some would. Now, we had a girl when I was at Valena C. Jones Normal School, she was a junior while I was a senior, who was very white and blue-eyed. I guess her father or her mother, somebody was White. But she got on the bus with us, and she sat in the back. It was worse, White people, because they wanted her to come up front. Her name was Iyandia. I don't know what happened to Iyandia, but she wouldn't. | 42:46 |
| Kate Ellis | I'm sorry. Some people— | 43:17 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | Whites. | 43:20 |
| Kate Ellis | White people told her to come up— | 43:20 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | Come up front. Yeah, but she wouldn't go. | 43:22 |
| Kate Ellis | Because she identified herself— | 43:24 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | Yeah, with that. | 43:25 |
| Kate Ellis | —with the Blacks? | 43:26 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | I think she must have been a junior. I got to ask one of those juniors if they ever know what happened to Iyandia Brooks. | 43:30 |
| Kate Ellis | Iyan? | 43:31 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | Iyandia. | 43:31 |
| Kate Ellis | Iyandia? | 43:31 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | Uh-huh. Iyandia Brooks. I don't know what happened to her. But she would sit in the back. So I guess we had different ways we felt about it. She could sit in the front, but she wouldn't. The lady told me, "Let him sit there." But I wouldn't let him sit. | 43:31 |
| Kate Ellis | You wouldn't do it? | 43:49 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | No. | 43:49 |
| Kate Ellis | I want just a general sense of dates of the time period. When you were with your son, was that in— | 43:54 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | My son was born in '44. I married in '42. | 44:00 |
| Kate Ellis | Okay. So it was probably in the late '40s or early '50s? | 44:05 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | Yeah. Late '40s because it's not too long ago. | 44:07 |
| Kate Ellis | She said, "Sit down there." What about when you were saying a few minutes ago about how you and your friends would talk a lot about segregation and discrimination. Do you mean from when you were in school? | 44:10 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | Yes. As youngsters. | 44:25 |
| Kate Ellis | Through the decades? | 44:27 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | As youngsters. You'd say that was wrong. When is it going to be right? I can remember being indignant with President Roosevelt. What was this about? In Africa with Haile Selassie. I don't know what. We were saying he should be doing something here. I've forgotten what he was speaking in favor of. We just said that he should be doing something here. | 44:27 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | See, so many things got interpreted in a light of the fact that we were desegregated and discriminated against. So you sort of carried it with you. You carried it. This is one of the things about the Black experience. I can remember this so well. I think I've just gotten away from it. If there was an automobile accident, when you look, the first thing you wanted to see was it Black and White. If it was Black and White, you were sorry. You were more secure if it was all-White because if it was Black and White, you knew something with the Black man was going to be in trouble if it was Black and White. | 45:06 |
| Kate Ellis | No matter whose fault it was? | 45:52 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | Because you see, well, if you didn't have a sense of humor, I guess you didn't make it through because we used to say, "When you're White, you're right." We used to say, "When you're White, you're right." My mother died in 1958. One of the things I miss from my mother, especially in the early years, I couldn't —"Mother, come see. There's a Black person on the TV. Come see." I thought my mother missed the man walking on the moon. And then she missed all of these Black news anchors and so forth. | 45:54 |
| Kate Ellis | [indistinct 00:46:37]— | 46:35 |
| Kate Ellis | So you would've liked your mother to see— | 0:02 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | To see the news anchor. | 0:05 |
| Kate Ellis | Black news anchor. | 0:06 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | Now, my husband comments by Bryant Gumbel, because he knew Bryant Gumbel's father. He would say, "Bryant—" Richard is his father's name. I didn't know him. He was from the downtown area. | 0:06 |
| Kate Ellis | And you were uptown? | 0:25 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | Uptown. Say to him, "Richard would be so proud if you could see Bryant now. You would be so proud if you could see him now." | 0:25 |
| Kate Ellis | So those sorts of things made a big difference, to finally see? | 0:30 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | That's right. You would say, "Come see it," if something exciting was happening. But when television came out, I was too poor to have a television. I didn't have one. | 0:34 |
| Kate Ellis | Couple things I want to ask you. At some point, I want to ask you about your growing up years, exactly where you grew up? | 0:52 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | Well, I lived uptown, when I went to Lavonne School. I lived at on, let me see what street was that? I was on Melpomene Street. Now Melpomene Street is now, a part of it is called Martin Luther King. | 1:13 |
| Kate Ellis | Oh, yeah. | 1:34 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | The part where I lived. 2304 Melpomene, that was part of—I was a while there. And I was a while at 2221 Magnolia, a very short while. And then I was 2110 South Claiborne. There's some kind of building out at South Claiborne where I was. That's where I went to Hoffman School, from I went there to junior high. I was at 2110 South Claiborne. Then we used to walk to McDonogh 35, which was way on Ranfort and Gerard. You find out where Ran ford and Gerard is, where 35 used to be. You see, we used to walk. And some children used to walk from Louisiana Avenue, and they would come, stop here and pick us up. | 1:34 |
| Kate Ellis | And then you were on your way? | 2:21 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | We all stop there and pick up somebody else. And then we all got to— | 2:22 |
| Kate Ellis | So it was a long walk? | 2:27 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | It was a long—Yeah. | 2:27 |
| Kate Ellis | From South Claiborne to— | 2:27 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | To McDonogh 35. | 2:27 |
| Kate Ellis | Is that partly, I'm not sure where the street cars went, but was it partly because you couldn't afford the street fare? | 2:32 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | Because you couldn't afford it. | 2:39 |
| Kate Ellis | Yeah. | 2:39 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | Street fare used to be 7 cents. It was 7 cents a long time. But we didn't have it. Only if it poured down rain. When I was at 35, only if it poured down rain. I could get car fare, maybe I could borrow car fare from the teacher. But we didn't have money like that. | 2:40 |
| Kate Ellis | Who raised you? | 2:59 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | My mother. My mother died in '58, so I was up the line, as they say. | 3:01 |
| Kate Ellis | And then you mentioned that she had another husband who was your stepfather? | 3:07 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | Yeah. | 3:12 |
| Kate Ellis | Did he raise you as well? Or did she marry him after you had grown? | 3:13 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | No, I was a child. I was a child. Let me see, I must have been maybe around nine or 10. Nine, 10. | 3:18 |
| Kate Ellis | When— | 3:29 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | When she married. When she married, I was around 10. | 3:31 |
| Kate Ellis | And you said he worked for the railroad? | 3:36 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | That's right. | 3:37 |
| Kate Ellis | And she worked in other people's houses, she did house work? | 3:38 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | That's right. She did housework. | 3:41 |
| Kate Ellis | Do you remember anything about your father? | 3:43 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | Yes. My father would breeze into town every once in a while. My father breezed into town. People said I looked a lot like my father. And finally he came back to live out in the country. Let me say in the country. That's in a little town, in a little lane between Napoleonville and Donaldsonville, a small lane. | 3:45 |
| Kate Ellis | What was it called? | 4:21 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | Ewellville. It's not on anybody's map because it's such a small lane. Well, it's the closest, Paintcourtville. It's close to Paintcourtville. They call it Paintcourtville. P-A-I-N-T-C-O-U-R—Paintcourt, P-A-I-N-T-C-O-U-R-T-V-I-L-L-E. Paintcourt, they call it Pancoville, that's what they say. But it looks like Paint Court Ville. Well, he lived in a lane called Ewellville. That's really where he lived. E-W-E-L-L-V-I-L-L-E. That's where his mother lived. He finally, well, he used to come back and forth and see his mother once in a while. He came back once in a while. | 4:21 |
| Kate Ellis | So your grandmother lived in New Orleans? | 5:03 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | No, Ewellville. | 5:06 |
| Kate Ellis | Oh, okay. | 5:06 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | That's where he came. | 5:07 |
| Kate Ellis | I see, he came back see to her in Ewellville. | 5:07 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | Ewellville. But you see, Ewellville is not that far from New Orleans. Because, what was it, maybe 80 miles or something like that. So he would breeze in and see me, and that was it. But after I finished high school, and grew up to be a teacher, I would visit him. He decided to stay out there. My father, from what I can understand, was a Beau Brummell type. | 5:11 |
| Kate Ellis | A what? | 5:42 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | Beau Brummell. I call that a gay blade, that's all. I don't mean gay, this new word gay. I just mean a man with a lot of friends, a jolly person with a lot of friends. He was not a homebody. That's what I'm saying. I'm not saying he was gay. | 5:43 |
| Kate Ellis | No, I understand what— | 6:10 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | He's not a homebody. | 6:11 |
| Kate Ellis | Right. He— | 6:12 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | He was not a home— | 6:14 |
| Kate Ellis | He liked to go out. | 6:14 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | He liked to have a good time. Mother couldn't rear children with that. My mother could not rear her children with that. She had to settle down and try to take care of the children. So it was very, very poor. So he went on back to Ewellville. But while he was there, one of those times, he was converted to Christianity. So he stayed there, and I used to visit him. And he went into the ministry. He was very devout. For he died in his fifties. He was very devout. | 6:16 |
| Kate Ellis | Wow. | 6:52 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | He changed. | 6:54 |
| Kate Ellis | So he sort of went through a big change, didn't he? | 6:54 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | He did. He went to a big change. Very devout. Well, I grew to know him very well. | 6:54 |
| Kate Ellis | Did you have brothers and sisters? | 7:08 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | My father had other children. He had a son. The son had 10 or 11 children. I keep up with those children. | 7:10 |
| Kate Ellis | So your half-brother so to speak? | 7:20 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | That's right. Yeah, I keep up with those children. One was named Audrey May after me. She's the first one who died. | 7:22 |
| Kate Ellis | Wow. | 7:30 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | She's dead. One died last year or the year before. And there was a son. He had about nine girls before he had a boy. And he had three boys, something like that. Eight girls I mean, then three boys, something like that. | 7:30 |
| Kate Ellis | Did your mother have any more children when you were growing up? | 7:50 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | [indistinct 00:07:53]. | 7:53 |
| Kate Ellis | Oh, thanks. Do you want me to unclip that for a minute? Okay, now. Okay, so this is, who are these? | 7:59 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | Do you see me? | 8:11 |
| Kate Ellis | Okay, wait. I would say—Oh, it's hard for me to tell. I would say— | 8:21 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | What, the last one? | 8:21 |
| Kate Ellis | No, the middle. | 8:21 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | Yeah. | 8:21 |
| Kate Ellis | Okay, good. | 8:21 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | That's right. This one, I was with her in April. She lives in Arizona. This one is deceased. The year I became principal is the year she died. | 8:31 |
| Kate Ellis | She died. | 8:38 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | She was [indistinct 00:08:40]. | 8:38 |
| Kate Ellis | So this is the household that you grew up in? | 8:41 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | Yeah, these three. | 8:43 |
| Kate Ellis | Now, were these sisters by your father? | 8:46 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | Yeah, they were my sisters. | 8:49 |
| Kate Ellis | So you know what I mean, they're so-called— | 8:51 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | I just had this half brother by my— | 8:55 |
| Kate Ellis | Okay. Okay. And what were their names? | 8:57 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | This is Mimi Dell. And this is Camille. | 9:00 |
| Kate Ellis | Camille. I love that name. And then this is the three of you as well? | 9:08 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | Yeah. | 9:08 |
| Kate Ellis | So what year was this taken about? Does it say? | 9:09 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | I wonder. I don't think it does. | 9:11 |
| Kate Ellis | Well, I don't really— | 9:15 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | I don't think it says. | 9:16 |
| Kate Ellis | But I bet we could probably guess. If you were born, let's see— | 9:20 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | I was born in 1919. | 9:25 |
| Kate Ellis | 1919. And you look like, can I guess that you were somewhere around, between 12 and 15? Do you think? | 9:30 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | Oh, I don't think I was as old as 15. | 9:38 |
| Kate Ellis | Okay. | 9:39 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | Because I finished high school when I was 15. That doesn't look like when I finished high school. I might be, maybe I was 12. Maybe that's 12. | 9:41 |
| Kate Ellis | So that was about '19. | 9:49 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | And she's two years younger. So maybe she was nine. | 9:50 |
| Kate Ellis | And she was the oldest? | 9:52 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | No, I was older. | 9:52 |
| Kate Ellis | Oh, okay. | 9:52 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | She's 14 months my junior. | 9:52 |
| Kate Ellis | Okay. So you were the oldest. | 9:52 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | Maybe it was 13. Maybe you can say 13. | 10:02 |
| Kate Ellis | So that was around 1932 or something. | 10:04 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | Mm-hmm. | 10:07 |
| Kate Ellis | And then when was—Now— | 10:08 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | Well, our mother had died, so I know when that was. This was 1958. | 10:10 |
| Kate Ellis | Huh. Am I seeing it's you again in the middle? | 10:14 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | Mm-hmm. | 10:19 |
| Kate Ellis | Wow. | 10:20 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | So she and I tried to see each other. | 10:22 |
| Kate Ellis | Who? You two. | 10:26 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | She came to participate in the 50th wedding anniversary— | 10:27 |
| Kate Ellis | Oh, because she was still in Arizona. She was in— | 10:29 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | She lived in Arizona. | 10:31 |
| Kate Ellis | Uh-huh. Uh-huh. | 10:32 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | I didn't know what that was. | 10:35 |
| Kate Ellis | Did you just get— | 10:37 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | It was a leaf. No, that was a leaf. | 10:37 |
| Kate Ellis | Oh. | 10:37 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | That was a leaf. | 10:37 |
| Kate Ellis | Who is this gentleman here? | 10:42 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | That's my husband. | 10:43 |
| Kate Ellis | Oh, okay. | 10:48 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | So that must have been when he was about 23 or 24. | 10:48 |
| Kate Ellis | These are beautiful photographs. I wonder if you'd let me—I told you that we're photographing old photographs. I wonder if you'd consider allowing me to photograph a couple of these photographs? | 10:54 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | Maybe so. | 11:07 |
| Kate Ellis | Okay. Well, think about it. You don't have to decide. | 11:08 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | Well, you know why I said maybe so? Just yesterday a member of my church told me that she let another member of the church have a picture, to get an ad in the book, and she was a couple of years trying to get the picture back. | 11:10 |
| Kate Ellis | Oh, oh. | 11:28 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | And when she got it back, it wasn't the original thing. Must had been something she had made. | 11:28 |
| Kate Ellis | Oh, no. Well, I can tell you I'd never do that. But if it made you more comfortable, I can actually bring the camera and the stand here. | 11:35 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | Okay. | 11:43 |
| Kate Ellis | Though I know you're really busy. | 11:44 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | Yeah, yeah. We're fine. We can do it. | 11:46 |
| Kate Ellis | We can talk about that. So you were raised in the household with these two sisters, and your mother. And then when you were 10 or 11, your stepfather— | 11:50 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | Stepfather. | 11:57 |
| Kate Ellis | —came. But sounds like there was a struggle to make ends meet? | 12:00 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | It was, it was. | 12:03 |
| Kate Ellis | And you lived uptown? | 12:03 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | Yes, I lived uptown. | 12:04 |
| Kate Ellis | Can you tell me about the neighborhood that you grew up in? What it was like, and whether—I know that I've heard from many people that a good part of New Orleans was integrated. | 12:08 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | Yeah, now when we lived on—Let me see, when I was very, very young we lived on Rampart Street. I don't know who else lived, I think Whites and Blacks. But on Melpomene Street, when we weren't too far from St. Charles Avenue when we were there. Let me see. I only remember we lived on Rampart Street. I didn't even put Rampart Street because that was when we were very, very young. | 12:22 |
| Kate Ellis | That's when you were really young. | 12:57 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | There was some White persons. And my mother didn't want us to play with White children because she was going to be angry if they got mad and called you nigger. She said she would've just avoid that. I can't remember that. I remember her saying no, no. | 13:00 |
| Kate Ellis | So she just wanted to protect you from that experience. | 13:17 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | That's right. | 13:20 |
| Kate Ellis | But obviously, she explained why it was that she didn't want you— | 13:22 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | That's right. That's right. She didn't want that. But not—On Melpomene Street, I can't remember much of the neighbors. Every time I pass that, because that place is close to my church, on 2304 Melpomene is, it's close to the church. I went to Union Bethelene Church. I learned to skate on Melpomene Street. I know that. I was nine years old and that's when I learned to skate. I can remember the day I learned, falling down and falling down. | 13:26 |
| Kate Ellis | Is this your husband coming in? | 14:05 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | Most likely. | 14:05 |
| Kate Ellis | Should I pause this for a minute? | 14:05 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | Yeah. | 14:05 |
| Kate Ellis | Okay. We were just talking about—Oh, your neighborhood and you learning how to roller skate. | 14:10 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | Yeah. | 14:15 |
| Kate Ellis | On— | 14:15 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | I don't remember the Whites of that neighborhood. | 14:16 |
| Kate Ellis | Male? | 14:24 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | But one thing about New Orleans, Whites and Blacks did live fairly close to one another. I don't know how it was with my husband. I don't know how it was him. One of the things I meant to ask him about, I think they used to get picked up as boys and talked to about loitering. | 14:25 |
| Kate Ellis | About loitering? | 14:51 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | Loitering. They were just—Orson? | 14:55 |
| Orson | Yeah. | 14:55 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | Didn't you say as a young boy, Whites used to, the police would stop you? | 14:55 |
| Orson | Oh yeah. Not far from here they stopped me. I was a junior in high school, they stopped me right up here at the Catholic school. Had a sickle in my hand, looking for grass jobs. They arrested me for no reason [indistinct 00:15:18]. | 15:00 |
| Kate Ellis | Wow. Wow. That was in the 30s? | 15:23 |
| Orson | In the 30s, about '36, '35. | 15:24 |
| Kate Ellis | Was that pretty common? | 15:29 |
| Orson | Oh yeah. How long will you be here? | 15:32 |
| Kate Ellis | I'm going to be here— | 15:37 |
| Orson | I mean, not here, in New Orleans? | 15:39 |
| Kate Ellis | Oh. Until about July 14th. | 15:41 |
| Orson | Oh, you got to stay. First time you've been in New Orleans? | 15:45 |
| Kate Ellis | Nope, the second time. But the first time I wasn't here for very long. So this is the first time that I get to explore the city. And yeah. | 15:48 |
| Orson | Okay, I'll see you later. | 15:59 |
| Kate Ellis | Okay. Nice to meet you. | 15:59 |
| Kate Ellis | You know, I would love to talk to him about that a little bit more. Maybe you can even talk about it for him. It sounds like in particular for young Black males, and during this period, they had to be careful about how they conducted themselves in public, for fear of— | 16:05 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | That's right. | 16:27 |
| Kate Ellis | —police brutality. | 16:28 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | And they've been telling you, since you said that they had to be careful, I told you that at parties and whatnot, at gatherings, so often you just ended up talking about discrimination, and segregation and discrimination. I wouldn't put it the way it was always segregation and discrimination. Sometimes the boys talked about their army life. And I remember once they were telling of an experience, that I hadn't known this kind of stuff happened, that girls would flirt with them, White girls would flirt with them. | 16:29 |
| Kate Ellis | With guys in the army? | 17:08 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | Yeah, they saw them. And of course they would flirt back. But then they were in neighborhoods, they discovered they would better be careful about that, because all the girls did was holler rape and they'd get killed. They would get killed. So sometimes they ran away from girls. | 17:10 |
| Kate Ellis | They did? | 17:32 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | They ran away from girls because they did not mean to get caught and killed needlessly. That was dangerous. They were telling about instances of that. | 17:35 |
| Kate Ellis | Can I get back to something that you said? We were talking about a girl who you knew from normal school, who you said was very light and blue eyes, and how she chose to sit in the back of the street car. Did you know of people who— | 17:47 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | Who did the otherwise? | 18:05 |
| Kate Ellis | Yeah. | 18:07 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | Who did the otherwise? Let me see, I had a normal school teacher, a public school music supervisor. She had a nephew, and she would say, "Oh, we don't want him." Somebody talked about getting him to do something, said, "We don't want him. He went on the other side." That's what she said, "We don't want him. He went on the other side." She was light skinned, but she wasn't choosing to go on the other side. There was some people who, but I wasn't close friends with anybody who did. I wasn't close friends with anybody who did. I don't know whether aunt here did that to other places when she chose to or not. | 18:07 |
| Kate Ellis | Like if her friends weren't around or something? | 18:58 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | Yeah, or if she wanted to go in someplace. Oh, I know, when something—The Sanger Theater was for Whites only. I don't remember now who, but different times, people say they went to the Sanger. They went to see something, they went to the Sanger. They would go. | 19:01 |
| Kate Ellis | And what'd you think of that when they told you that? Did you have an opinion about it? | 19:17 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | I didn't resent it. It was all right. Some people would be mad. | 19:21 |
| Kate Ellis | Oh, hang on. | 19:25 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | One of the things, do you have a specific question now? | 19:29 |
| Kate Ellis | No, go ahead. | 19:31 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | One of the things that we used to talk about a lot and be disturbed about a lot, was lynching. We don't hear that anymore. That's over. Praise the Lord. But every once in a while somebody was lynched. And it happened quite often. And that was one of—I guess that's why we talked about desegregation and discrimination so much, because all that was part of the same package of experiences. | 19:32 |
| Kate Ellis | Do you remember anybody who was lynched? Do you remember any particular? | 19:57 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | No, but I remember somebody who was beat up for working on the voter registration. | 20:00 |
| Kate Ellis | Oh yeah. | 20:08 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | It wasn't in New Orleans, it was some other place. But my husband, yeah, he'd probably remember who that was. | 20:09 |
| Kate Ellis | What decade was that, probably? | 20:28 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | That was about 30 years ago. I don't know. And then that was about what, let me see, I was voting on—That kind of laws, I was just about to say something. Oh, voter registration. When I was a young teacher, I wanted to register to vote. Every time I went for about three times I was not allowed to register. They used to tell us that's something wrong. That's all they would tell you, something was wrong. | 20:28 |
| Kate Ellis | That's it? Not— | 21:00 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | That's it. That's it. And then you see, you had people who wanted you to explain about the Constitution and all. And they wouldn't let you register when you'd go. | 21:01 |
| Kate Ellis | So what would you say? What'd you do when that happened? | 21:16 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | [indistinct 00:21:19] Leave, and go back, and come another time. I went about three times before I was registered to vote. And you had other people, who you knew didn't know any more than you did, that they could go on and register. That was—That was how it was, well I guess before we had the equalization of the schools, supposedly equalization. | 21:19 |
| Kate Ellis | Which I guess is another topic as far as whether it was became equal or not. | 21:48 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | I was looking to see things I had jotted down. Oh, in the school system we had special scheduling. I've forgotten what they called that. But we had special scheduling one time because the schools were so crowded. And you see, you couldn't put us in the Black children in the White school. So the schools designated for Blacks sometimes were so crowded. So then you had a schedule of maybe 8 to 2, and 11 to 4, or something like that. 11 to 5, whatever. That's the way they worked out the problem. | 22:01 |
| Kate Ellis | And so the teachers ended up working? | 22:37 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | The teachers, well they didn't work any more time, but they just had to start at different times. They couldn't be like the 9 to 3 ordinary school day. It had to be maybe 7:30 or whatever to 1:30, 11 to 4:30 or something like that. | 22:38 |
| Kate Ellis | So that's how crowded it was? | 23:00 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | That's how crowded it was. And that was the answer to it, not to mix the school children. You had to just adjust that school for those children. I didn't have that experience, as I was—I don't think I had that as principal, I just had that when I was—I experienced it when I was teaching. | 23:03 |
| Kate Ellis | Were White schools as crowded? I mean, was it obvious that they had— | 23:21 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | I don't know. No, no, no. Well you see the point, no, they weren't. I don't think the White were like that. That was in the Black schools. | 23:27 |
| Kate Ellis | Yeah. | 23:31 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | Well I mentioned that teachers stayed after school for clubs and all that kind of stuff. But after integration, Blacks were not willing to do so. They didn't want to be imposed on. Well you couldn't make the other—They didn't have enough nobility to do that. Yeah, I think I've touched on things that maybe later on I'll think about something, or I didn't think of that. But these were the things that crossed my mind, that I said I would share. | 23:43 |
| Kate Ellis | Is there anything, you have touched, we've covered a lot of different ground, is there anything else that stands out in your mind? Other symbols of legalized segregation of Jim Crow? | 24:22 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | I talk about the screens on the cars. Oh yes, I remember. Once when my child was quite small, I went to City Park. And the Black children couldn't get on the train ride. Imagine children would want to get on the train ride, but you couldn't do it. | 24:52 |
| Kate Ellis | There were train rides through the park? | 25:15 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | Yeah, there was train rides. But Black children were not allowed. And that's one of the things you feel keenly when the thing is hitting your children. So we didn't like that. | 25:15 |
| Kate Ellis | Do you remember how you would—It was, Arthur was your son's name? | 25:31 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | Yeah. | 25:34 |
| Kate Ellis | Did he ever ask you, do you remember him ever asking you why things? Why it was? | 25:36 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | I remember on the street car, "But why I can't sit there?" Well, I might just say something like, "You're not supposed to do it. You're not supposed to sit there." | 25:39 |
| Kate Ellis | Do you remember how adults explained it to you when you were coming up? | 25:49 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | I don't know. I guess I was a quiet child. Maybe I didn't ask. Maybe I didn't ask. I don't know. I don't know. But what I mentioned, that at the Sanger Theater you couldn't go. Oh, and in other theaters you sat in the balcony. You never, you couldn't sit down in the door. So we didn't have any money for the other part anyway. But you couldn't sit there. You couldn't sit, you could only sit in the balcony. I said sense of humor helped you to make it through these things, because one time I said I was going to write down all the words that we called one another. I don't know what—Did you did see any of the brothers? | 25:52 |
| Kate Ellis | What was that? | 26:46 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | Did you see any of the brothers? Now what else did you call? | 26:46 |
| Kate Ellis | Who were, and the brothers were? | 26:47 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | That was between us, within our ranks we called it. | 26:50 |
| Kate Ellis | Oh, each other that. | 26:53 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | Were any of the brothers there? Now what else you called? Oh, there were—[indistinct 00:26:59] There were a lot of things you called one another. Were any of us there? Did you see any something? | 26:55 |
| Kate Ellis | Oh, these are all referring to Black people? | 27:12 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | To Blacks, Black people. | 27:14 |
| Kate Ellis | Okay. | 27:14 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | In reference to Black. If you went to something, to some kind of activity, it was interesting to see to what extent we were participating. That's it. We were always concerned whether we were participating in these things. Were you there? Who was there? I don't know why I don't remember them. But they were a lot. Just like, well if we noticed things, now one of the things that I noticed, and I hadn't spoken to Arthur about it, World War II was celebrated, D-Day. Almost all the interviews were with White people. Almost all the interviews were with White people. | 27:15 |
| Kate Ellis | Now do you mean this, the recent anniversary? | 28:06 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | This recent day? | 28:07 |
| Kate Ellis | Right, right. As if— | 28:09 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | I know that there was a preponderance of White, but almost all the interviews. And I was surprised that sometime at the end of this thing, end of that week or something like that, in passing I heard something. I didn't listen to the whole program, but I just heard somebody saying something about Blacks were not included. They were going to have some Black regimen or some Black something. | 28:09 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | And I said to them, I had observed that, that all these experiences of people going back—Or because we don't have many that can afford to go back. There are all kinds of reasons, but all I'm simply saying, that's what it was. That's what I noticed. Well we noticed a thing, just like I said, about when there was an automobile accident. For the most part I'd want to see if it's Black and White in the accident. Because if it's a Black person, uh oh, he's in trouble. That's the way it is. | 28:36 |
| Kate Ellis | Yeah. What would happen if there were two, if there were two cars and there were two Black people in the accident? | 29:12 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | Well, you felt relieved. | 29:17 |
| Kate Ellis | Really? Because neither one would be blamed? | 29:18 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | But either way, no, you felt just—Oh well, you didn't as though you could count on the injustice. | 29:24 |
| Kate Ellis | Okay. | 29:29 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | That's the point. | 29:30 |
| Kate Ellis | I see. | 29:30 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | You didn't feel that you could count on injustice. And then on by the same token, well we used to say White you're right. I don't believe Black, you're right. And a lot of Blacks don't either. But I noticed in the communities, because a lot of us are grumbling. Out in these communities where bad things are happening, crimes are being committed. Nobody's seeing what nobody's doing. And we say, some of us say, they're going to have supports and what not to raise money for this person, but this person may have done this thing that's bad. | 29:30 |
| Kate Ellis | Like? | 30:07 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | So we are not in full agreement that always, if the person is Black, he's right. Always he's going to be put up on, always he's going to be mistreated and unjustly. We feel that some of these things are being brought on by themselves. And yet, we feel some responsibility in the Black community for some of the things that go on. We don't feel that there is no responsibility. It's all because you're Black. But then you've had so many experiences that have been bad, till it changes you. It changes your thinking. | 30:07 |
| Kate Ellis | You almost can't help but expect that there's an injustice behind it. | 30:53 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | Yeah. But— | 30:59 |
| Kate Ellis | Because for so long— | 31:00 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | Yeah. Actually when I say it changes your thinking, because you know that that's not fully the case all the time. You know that's not fully the case. | 31:03 |
| Kate Ellis | But because it has been a lot of the time— | 31:10 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | Time, that's it. And you see, just last Friday, which was—A young man I saw, I was in the waiting room of an optometrist. The young Black man was in there. He was so hurt, and distressed, and disturbed, and annoyed with OJ Simpson. So then he said, "Mike Tyson." Let's see, who did he say that—Mike Tyson, Michael Jackson. | 31:14 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | And so we say, I don't care what somebody else is doing. People say, "White people do." We say, "We can't afford it." That's what we say, "We can't afford it. We can't afford it." When I speak about the blood pressure, because you're always doing something for the cause, or you have the cause on your back. I'm now serving as President of Church Women United. | 31:51 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | When I was first asked to participate in Church Women United, I said I had too many things to do. I don't need to be in Church Women United. Well, they always say Black people don't do things. So the people who can do things, they need to do it. So here I got in Church Women United. Because I had to be in Church Women United. Kept asking me to be, kept me to be the President. Finally, I considered to be the President. But that's why your pressure is high, because other than ordinary living, you got to hold up the cause. | 32:18 |
| Kate Ellis | And as if your every action represents— | 32:51 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | Yes, you represent— | 32:57 |
| Kate Ellis | —the whole population? | 32:59 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | That boy was so disgusted with OJ, he said, "Here with OJ, Michael Tyson," Michael Jackson— | 33:00 |
| Kate Ellis | It almost doesn't matter that the same things happened, that Whites would do the same— | 33:09 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | I didn't tell him, because I don't want to start saying this because somebody may try to catch up with you. But most of the serial killers are White, the ones that they bring. And that's as awful as they can be. | 33:13 |
| Kate Ellis | Yeah. | 33:24 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | It's as awful. But I don't want to say it loud, because if I say it loud, some Blacks may think they have to catch up with Whites on that. | 33:25 |
| Kate Ellis | No. | 33:30 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | But most of the serial killers, which is just awful, awful, awful. Who seem to do crazy things, enough of them. | 33:32 |
| Kate Ellis | Yeah. Well this is good. I think we've talked about a lot. For some reason there's something that's sort of tickling the back of my mind. | 33:42 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | Well, I won't be unavailable that you can't call me again if you want to ask me something. | 33:56 |
| Kate Ellis | Really? Okay. | 34:00 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | Where is your paper that you set up? | 34:01 |
| Kate Ellis | Oh, okay. These papers, they— | 34:04 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | I have to do that at home by myself? | 34:06 |
| Kate Ellis | No, I do these. We have to do them now | 34:08 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | Oh, all right then. Let's do it. | 34:10 |
| Kate Ellis | If that's okay? | 34:11 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | Okay. | 34:11 |
| Kate Ellis | The ones where I ask you these things. | 34:12 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | All right then. | 34:13 |
| Kate Ellis | Okay, let's start them. I know there's some little question that I'm going to— | 34:16 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | Well pull it out then, whenever you think of it. Yes. | 34:18 |
| Kate Ellis | Okay. So I'm going to just keep the tape recorder on while we do it, even though—Let me just write down—I always do this, put my last name. It's Robertson? | 34:22 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | That's right. | 34:35 |
| Kate Ellis | And let me make sure, it's A-U-D-R-Y? | 34:39 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | E-Y. | 34:42 |
| Kate Ellis | E-Y. Okay. A-U-D-R-E-Y. What's your middle name? | 34:43 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | Freddie Mae. Carr is my maiden name though. | 34:48 |
| Kate Ellis | Okay. F-R-E-D-D— | 34:51 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | —I-E. | 34:53 |
| Kate Ellis | And then do I do a dash Mae or is it all one? Is it two separate? | 34:54 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | No, Mae is another word. | 34:57 |
| Kate Ellis | Okay. And is it M-A-E? | 34:59 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | That's right. | 35:00 |
| Kate Ellis | Okay. | 35:00 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | Maiden, you don't put maiden name. | 35:00 |
| Kate Ellis | And the maiden name— | 35:04 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | Is Carr. | 35:05 |
| Kate Ellis | C-A-R-R? | 35:06 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | That's right. | 35:07 |
| Kate Ellis | Okay. So Audrey Freddie Mae Carr Robertson? | 35:09 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | Right. | 35:12 |
| Kate Ellis | Okay. And a lot of the stuff I can get, your 2724 Mexico. What is your zip code? | 35:13 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | 70122. | 35:22 |
| Kate Ellis | Okay. And your date of birth is? | 35:26 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | 6/14/1919. | 35:28 |
| Kate Ellis | And you were born in New Orleans? | 35:34 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | Chicago. | 35:34 |
| Kate Ellis | Oh, okay. When did you come here? | 35:39 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | When I was three, about then. | 35:40 |
| Kate Ellis | Okay. And— | 35:41 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | When she couldn't live the gay life of Chicago. | 35:44 |
| Kate Ellis | Who, your mother? | 35:47 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | Yeah, she came down to New Orleans. | 35:50 |
| Kate Ellis | Oh, and did she come without your father? | 35:50 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | Yeah. | 35:51 |
| Kate Ellis | Oh, I see. So she— | 35:52 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | She to come where she could make it, she thought. | 35:53 |
| Kate Ellis | I see. So she essentially left him becausev | 35:57 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | Yeah, she had to come down here. | 35:59 |
| Kate Ellis | To come down here with you. And now you said your second sister was 14 months younger? | 36:03 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | Yeah. | 36:11 |
| Kate Ellis | And then what about the third sister? | 36:12 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | Two years. | 36:14 |
| Kate Ellis | So she brought all three of you down to New Orleans? | 36:15 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | Yes, when she came down to New Orleans, I don't know whether she went back a little while or came back or what. | 36:18 |
| Kate Ellis | Okay. Now your principal occupations have been? School principal? | 36:27 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | Only a school teacher phrase. | 36:31 |
| Kate Ellis | Okay. And teacher. | 36:32 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | Teacher and principal. | 36:32 |
| Kate Ellis | School teacher, school principal. Okay. This stuff, I can do on my own. This stuff, same thing. Okay, how would you like your name to appear in written materials? Exactly how would you like it to— | 36:33 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | I guess Audrey Carr Robertson. | 37:01 |
| Kate Ellis | Okay. And I've got your date of birth. I've got your place of birth. You are married. Okay, now this husband's name is Arthur? | 37:03 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | That's right, A-R-T-H-U-R. | 37:24 |
| Kate Ellis | What's his middle name? | 37:26 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | Henry | 37:27 |
| Kate Ellis | And Robertson. When was he born? | 37:31 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | May 8th, '17. | 37:37 |
| Kate Ellis | Okay. And where was he born? | 37:45 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | New Orleans. | 37:46 |
| Kate Ellis | And his occupation? | 37:52 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | Well, at civil service. | 37:56 |
| Kate Ellis | Okay. What was your mother's name? | 38:02 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | Leah. | 38:06 |
| Kate Ellis | Leah? | 38:06 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | L-E-A-H. Selina. | 38:08 |
| Kate Ellis | Can you spell? | 38:12 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | S-E-L-I-N-A, Luins, L-U-I-N-S. | 38:13 |
| Kate Ellis | And her maiden name? | 38:19 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | Luins, because it's here, I'm a Carr. | 38:23 |
| Kate Ellis | Oh, okay. So—Oh, right, that makes sense. Oh, but no, her—Oh, I see. Okay. Did you know her date of birth, when she was born? | 38:26 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | Let me see, 70 she was in 1958. | 38:48 |
| Kate Ellis | Okay. So it would've been—That would've been— | 38:48 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | 19— | 38:48 |
| Kate Ellis | Like 1788? | 38:48 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | 7 from 15 is 8. It would be 1988 or 1987. | 38:49 |
| Kate Ellis | Oh, you mean 18? | 39:17 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | I mean not 1980, I mean 18— | 39:20 |
| Kate Ellis | So about 1888. | 39:23 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | 18—Yeah. | 39:26 |
| Kate Ellis | What's her birthday? | 39:27 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | May 25th. | 39:27 |
| Kate Ellis | 1888. And she passed in? | 39:35 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | 1958. | 39:37 |
| Kate Ellis | Do you remember what month? Or what the day was? | 39:41 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | April. | 39:43 |
| Kate Ellis | Okay. | 39:43 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | I think it was April the 13th. | 39:44 |
| Kate Ellis | And she did house— | 39:52 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | Domestics. | 39:54 |
| Kate Ellis | Domestics. | 39:54 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | That's what they call that, domestics. | 39:55 |
| Kate Ellis | Okay. And your father's name? | 40:01 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | John Freddie Carr. | 40:02 |
| Kate Ellis | And his date of birth? | 40:11 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | I don't know his date of birth. | 40:12 |
| Kate Ellis | Okay. And when did he pass? Do you remember what year? | 40:18 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | Let's see, my mother died in 58. He died—I don't know whether he died about 50—Might have been around '54. I'm not sure. | 40:35 |
| Kate Ellis | Okay. I'll say 19— | 40:37 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | Maybe he died in '54. And I said he was 53, I think when he died. | 40:38 |
| Kate Ellis | Oh. | 40:40 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | No, not 53, couldn't have been. | 40:41 |
| Kate Ellis | Because that means your mother would've been a lot older than him. | 40:46 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | No, it couldn't been. I don't know how old he was when he died. | 40:48 |
| Kate Ellis | Okay. | 40:51 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | But it was 1954. She wasn't that older than he. She might have been five years. I don't know. | 40:53 |
| Kate Ellis | It's going to have you thinking a bit. | 41:09 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | If it's 54—What, 1890, I wonder? | 41:13 |
| Kate Ellis | Should I put, I'll put around— | 41:38 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | 1890. | 41:38 |
| Kate Ellis | I'll say 1890 or so. And where was he born? | 41:40 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | I don't know. I guess he was born out there in—I don't know, I guess he's born out there in the country. | 41:49 |
| Kate Ellis | In the Louisiana country? | 41:54 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | Yeah. | 41:55 |
| Kate Ellis | So I'll say in the country. But how can I say this? Do you think it was near Paintcourtville? I could say near Paintcourtville. | 41:56 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | All right. Or put Ewellville. [indistinct 00:42:11] | 42:07 |
| Kate Ellis | Can we spell that again? | 42:12 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | E-W-E-L-V-I-L-L-E. | 42:12 |
| Kate Ellis | Okay. And did he have an occupation? You said— | 42:21 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | Well, his closing years he was a minister. | 42:24 |
| Kate Ellis | Okay. | 42:28 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | Baptist preacher. | 42:29 |
| Kate Ellis | Okay. Now can you tell me the names—Do you just have a son? Is that right? | 42:39 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | Mm-hmm. | 42:46 |
| Kate Ellis | And his name is Arthur? | 42:47 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | Arthur Henry Robertson Jr. | 42:48 |
| Kate Ellis | Junior. Oops. When was he born? | 42:49 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | May 11th, 1944. | 43:11 |
| Kate Ellis | In New Orleans? No, in New Orleans? | 43:16 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | Yeah. | 43:18 |
| Kate Ellis | Do you have any grandchildren? | 43:23 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | Yeah. | 43:25 |
| Kate Ellis | How many? | 43:26 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | One. | 43:27 |
| Kate Ellis | Now your sisters, so you were the first born. And then your sisters, you told me their names and I can't remember now. | 43:30 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | Camille, C-A-M-I-L-L-E, Leah. | 43:38 |
| Kate Ellis | Camille Leah? | 43:47 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | Leah, name after my mother. Leah, L-E-A-H. | 43:48 |
| Kate Ellis | Yeah. Roberts—I mean, not Robertson. | 43:51 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | Uh-huh. She was a Harvin when she died. Carr was her maiden name. | 43:54 |
| Kate Ellis | Okay, I'll just—Well actually, what was her last name when she died? | 44:00 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | Harvin, H-A-R-V-I-N. | 44:05 |
| Kate Ellis | And when was she? She was born 14 months after you? | 44:08 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | Yeah, she was born August. | 44:12 |
| Kate Ellis | August, 1920. Would that be right? | 44:14 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | Yeah. | 44:18 |
| Kate Ellis | Okay. When did she pass? | 44:27 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | 1965. I don't know what month that was. | 44:31 |
| Kate Ellis | Okay. And then she was born in Chicago? | 44:34 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | Yeah. | 44:39 |
| Kate Ellis | And then your other sister? | 44:41 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | Mamie Dell, M-A-M-I-E, by itself. And capital D-E-L-L, Francis. Johnson is her—She was a Carr, of course. Then she was a Johnson. | 44:44 |
| Kate Ellis | And she was born? | 45:03 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | New Orleans. | 45:05 |
| Kate Ellis | Okay. When was she born? | 45:08 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | Two years later. | 45:13 |
| Kate Ellis | So like 1922? | 45:14 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | That's it. | 45:15 |
| Kate Ellis | And she's still living, right? | 45:17 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | Oh yeah. | 45:19 |
| Kate Ellis | Yeah. | 45:20 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | She's living. | 45:20 |
| Kate Ellis | She was born in New Orleans? | 45:21 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | Yeah. | 45:29 |
| Kate Ellis | Oh, okay. | 45:29 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | So my father got to New Orleans. | 45:30 |
| Kate Ellis | Yeah. Okay. Okay, so this says to list the places you have lived. So you lived first in Chicago? | 45:31 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | Just while I was a little toddler. | 45:42 |
| Kate Ellis | Right. But from 1919 to 1921? | 45:43 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | Something like— | 45:43 |
| Kate Ellis | Or 1922? | 45:43 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | I don't, I just know that I was a toddler. | 45:43 |
| Kate Ellis | That's fine. Right. And then New Orleans. | 45:44 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | For the rest of my life. | 45:58 |
| Kate Ellis | Did you say that you had lived outside of—You didn't really live anywhere but New Orleans? | 46:02 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | No, I visited my—My husband's in Philadelphia. | 46:06 |
| Kate Ellis | Okay. But pretty much— | 46:10 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | I lived in New Orleans. New Orleans was home. | 46:11 |
| Kate Ellis | And then the schools that you attended, starting with— | 46:13 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | Well, I started with Mount Zion Lutheran School. That's a preschool I went to. | 46:18 |
| Kate Ellis | Okay. | 46:34 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | Lutheran School. | 46:34 |
| Kate Ellis | Lutheran, in New Orleans. | 46:34 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | One thing that I did, which I believe was significant for Civil Rights, Mr. A.P Tureaud, who was the attorney in the suit for equal salaries, needed some signatures so that the line in the suit that says E-T A-L, naming us a person and all others, likewise. There needed to be some people to back up that et al. And he needed some signatures. And it was a Sunday, I went to his office and signed my name so that I would be one of those. And if it's not a big thing, but still it was significant to me, that I was ready to stand to be a representative. And I think that was important. | 0:02 |
| Kate Ellis | What year was that about? Well, can we say was that 1960s or was that 1950s? | 0:58 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | '50s. | 1:03 |
| Kate Ellis | Okay. | 1:03 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | I think somewhere in the '50s. | 1:03 |
| Kate Ellis | Yeah. Just since we're on the topic, I mean sort of on the topic, you spent time, you said a lot of time with your friends talking about discrimination and segregation, as you would. How did that compel you to act? Or— | 1:07 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | Well, I always felt that I had to be with the best of whatever I could be, because that always lifted the race. And you needed to do it. I needed to do that. And it always made it important to me to stand fast in the things, with my goals, to try to reach the top of wherever I could reach. | 1:36 |
| Kate Ellis | You said that teachers that you had as you were growing up, taught you that kind of thing as well. It sounds like they were ones that helped to instill those values in you when you were growing. Did your mother talk to you about that sort of thing? | 2:04 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | Yes, she did. It was important to me, my mother worked hard. I considered myself a child of the Depression, and my mother worked very hard. And I owed—I had a motivating thing to hurry up, and get through, and get a job so my mother wouldn't have to work so hard. And I was very proud when I received my appointment and she didn't have to go to that particular job again. | 2:28 |
| Kate Ellis | Her particular job? | 2:56 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | That's right. That's right. But she brought clothes home that I could wear, that were discards, but they were good. That were discards from the people where she worked. And she was able to bring food home too. So her job was important, aside from the money. But I was very glad when I was able to say, you didn't have to do that anymore. | 2:57 |
| Kate Ellis | So you started to help to support her? | 3:25 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | That's right. That's right. | 3:26 |
| Kate Ellis | I finally thought of one of the questions that I have for you. You talked about recently, you recently mentioned that there were names that you had to refer to one another as a Black group, or a Black— Were the brothers there? Were we there? Whatever. | 3:29 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | Yeah. | 3:46 |
| Kate Ellis | Did you likewise have names for White people? | 3:46 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | I don't know that it was so much of that. It was a form of togetherness, speaking about the Blacks. It was just togetherness. You want me to ask my husband some of the names? | 3:54 |
| Kate Ellis | Sure. | 4:09 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | I'll just go ask. I'll tell him. | 4:09 |
| Kate Ellis | Well, I guess that's a good place to— | 4:16 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | Okay, well you didn't really drink your water. You knew you had so much to get into— | 4:18 |
| Kate Ellis | I'm going to finish it before I leave, actually. | 4:22 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | I have a little cracker? | 4:24 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | "Africa, my father land. I was naked but contented on the oriental sand. I was ignorant but happy, for it mattered not to me. Even though I had no money, I had health and liberty. But ye Anglo Saxons bought me. Meager was the price to pay. You had brought me to this country. Gentlemen, I'm here to stay." | 4:27 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | "As an humble slave I served you 244 years. I give honor's faithful service, sacrificing blood and tears. With but little food arraignment from the early dawn till night, I toiled in the hard task masters who did not treat me right. Often I rose in the morning and did not have time to pray. You have brought me to this country. Gentlemen, I'm here to stay." | 4:48 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | "When the crates of slavery ended, in some ways I was set free. For my centuries of labor, I got only liberty. Given freedom without shelter and a place to lay my head, given freedom without money and without a crust of bread. But the hand of God was with me. I have got along some way. You have brought me to this country. Gentlemen, I am here the stay." | 5:13 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | "You have helped to educate me. I appreciate that fact. Though you teach your child to hate me, just because my skin is Black. You discriminate against me in most every way you can. Many times you don't regard me as you would some other man. You make laws without my consent and force me to obey. But you brought me to this country. Gentlemen, I'm here to stay." | 5:35 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | "Following your good example, I had built a lovely home. I had built my church and schoolhouse with an elevated dome. I had placed a Brussels carpet on my parlor on the floor. I have a baby grand piano at water Kent Radio. I ride any kind of auto, Page, Nash, Hudson, Chevrolet. You have brought me to this country. Gentlemen, I'm here to stay." | 6:00 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | "I'm not running a big business, but I have a bank account. And the checks I write are honored for most any small amount. I have my fraternal orders, build my own masonic holes. I have beautiful constructions built with brick and plastered walls. The achievements of my people make a wonderful display. You have brought me to this country. Gentlemen, I'm here to stay." | 6:21 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | "Princes shall come out of Egypt and shall dwell up on this side. Ethiopia stretching forth her dusty hands for God. Righteousness shall stand forever, and shall triumph over sin. There shall be a peace abiding here within the hearts of men. All of those in false conceptions will at last be done away. You have brought me to this country. Gentlemen, I am here to stay." | 6:48 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | I didn't find the last one over here. I was looking for it. But I did— | 7:08 |
| Kate Ellis | But you had it memorized. Oh, perfect. That was beautiful. That's— Who wrote— | 7:18 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | Now that was written by, I want to say, that was written Ephraim David Tyler. | 7:26 |
| Kate Ellis | Is that by? | 7:31 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | It's a Black poet. | 7:32 |
| Kate Ellis | Okay. Is that is Tyler— | 7:33 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | That's his name. | 7:35 |
| Kate Ellis | By Ephraim— | 7:36 |
| Audrey Carr Robertson | Ephraim David Tyler. | 7:40 |
| Kate Ellis | Thanks. | 7:49 |
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