Amelia Thorpe interview recording, 1996 November 11

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Julie Zwibelman	The second interview with Amelia Thorpe in her home at 608 Dunbar Street in Durham, North Carolina. You were talking last interview a lot about your political things that you did in Durham and in California. Were your parents active politically?	0:01
Amelia Thorpe	No. They voted. They were responsible citizens. But no, they were not active. They belonged to the NAACP, but they just—and obviously, they were really active in the community.	0:18
Julie Zwibelman	How did they respond when you were active?	0:37
Amelia Thorpe	Oh, they thought it was our responsibility during the Civil Rights Movement. Yes, they did. They supported our activities. Yeah.	0:40
Julie Zwibelman	And did they always vote? Do you always remember them voting?	0:41
Amelia Thorpe	Oh, yes. Always remember them voting. Yes. Because my mother could [indistinct 00:01:02]. A part of the first teachers who got equity in D.C. because when she started teaching in North Carolina, all the White teachers were paid more, regardless of their degree. She was well-aware of inequalities that just personally affected her profession. And of course as always, those Jim Crow laws.	0:56
Julie Zwibelman	Did she always teach, even after the schools were integrated? Did she continue to teach?	1:34
Amelia Thorpe	She had because, about the time the students were fully integrated, she did teach one summer at Hillside and that was being integrated, I think that was the summer before she retired. For kids in school, it was much later that, before they became integrated. And it still to this day, there's just a token number of White children who go to Hillside school. There may be a few more Hispanics.	1:38
Julie Zwibelman	And growing up, you said that your mom was real strict, and we talked a little bit about your dad. Were you closer with one of your parents than the other, or?	2:04
Amelia Thorpe	Well, being the oldest daughter, I was close to my mother. And yet I realized I was my Daddy's oldest daughter, too. And it wasn't, unfortunately, it wasn't until after he died that I realized how close I was with him. But my mother lived so much longer, and I stayed with her during those declining years. And that was because I had grown up to be her help by her, and oldest daughter. This happens a lot, especially in Southern families.	2:28
Amelia Thorpe	And exactly since I was. And now, in my old age, I realize why women are so anxious to get married. Traditional women, you know, traditionally. They were so anxious to get married, to get out of the family home. That was the only way they knew to get out of their family home. And of course, I was brave enough, and thinking enough of myself to go to California and live for a while on my own. Which was pretty brave.	2:55
Julie Zwibelman	And what did your father do for a living?	3:48
Amelia Thorpe	He worked for the Golden Belt Manufacturing Company, he worked there nail cleaning.	3:50
Julie Zwibelman	And you said you weren't, he was in—	3:59
Amelia Thorpe	And earlier he had worked in hotels.	4:04
Julie Zwibelman	Oh, okay.	4:04
Amelia Thorpe	In Raleigh.	4:04
Julie Zwibelman	Okay, and then for a while he was also up north?	4:06
Amelia Thorpe	Yes, at a very young age he lived up in New York. But that was in the depth of the Depression, and it was very difficult to find work, to live up there, so that was when he went to clean hotel rooms at the Sir Walter Raleigh in Raleigh. And then he came to Durham, he worked as a Washington Duke bellhop.	4:06
Julie Zwibelman	Did he describe what it was like here during the Depression?	4:12
Amelia Thorpe	In New York?	4:39
Julie Zwibelman	Yeah, or in Durham, after he came back.	4:40
Amelia Thorpe	He didn't talk about it very much. I think it was a very, very difficult time for them. He shared with me a lot about his early childhood, how he had been fortunate enough to have an aunt to go to when things got kind of difficult with his own home, and Henderson Institute. But he never talked very much about his early days in his twenties. He was about twenty-seven when he married my mom, and he never talked very much. I think those days were very stressful and unhappy. And so he didn't talk very much about it.	4:40
Julie Zwibelman	Did your mother talk about the time when she was—	5:31
Amelia Thorpe	Yes, my mom talked more about the times when she worked in the summer for well-to-do White people on the shore of New Jersey. She talked about it because although she was working that way, she said she had pleasant situations, and what she was working for, it must have been a place where nuns lived. You know. Not a sanctuary. It's a—	5:33
Julie Zwibelman	Like a convent?	5:54
Amelia Thorpe	A convent, but yeah, a convent, thank you—kind of place. And she said how kind they were. They took her to the sea. So, although she was working as a domestic while she went to school, it was uncommon. She never described it as something, you know. Because she was working, and she was working for people who treated her kindly. And there was a way that she could continue going to school.	6:06
Julie Zwibelman	And then you talked about your grandmother, Amelia. Do you know much about the lives of those women?	6:31
Amelia Thorpe	I'm sorry, something dropped on my head. What was that? (laughs) It was something. See, Amelia my grandmother died when she was around thirty, thirty-five. So I didn't know, I was told that she was a very genteel lady. Very kindhearted, and loved her husband very much. Her mother had lived a rather isolated life on a small plantation, and didn't know too much about them except that she had three daughters, and the middle daughter, I think —	6:48
Julie Zwibelman	Was that a slave plantation?	7:45
Amelia Thorpe	No, no, no. My great-grandfather was born what was called issue-free. He was never a slave. But he never owned anything, either. But he had his own little plantation in North Carolina, and unfortunately he did not have any sons. That's why people were so anxious to have sons, because sons generally would carry on the farm. He didn't. However, he did have one daughter who had about six or eight children. So my mother had many more first cousins than I did. My sister and I only have two, and my mom must have had about six or eight.	7:45
Julie Zwibelman	Your great grandfather was born here?	8:41
Amelia Thorpe	In Granville, North Carolina. All the people that I know, all of my ancestors that I know of are from North Carolina. Between Person and Granville. I used to envy some of my friends on this thing, who had grandparents in Kentucky. I would always be like, "If I had grandparents in another state, I could go to visit." As far as I know, all of my family are from North Carolina.	8:44
Julie Zwibelman	And Pearl Page, I've got her, she's your—	8:59
Amelia Thorpe	Yeah, my great aunt. She's my grandfather's, my mama's dad. She was the one that told me about my grandmother, because she came here to take care of my mom and her sister and brother, when their mother was sickly. So she got to know them pretty well.	8:59
Julie Zwibelman	And how did she come to own the grocery store?	9:24
Amelia Thorpe	When she came to Durham, there was J.L. Page, was running the grocery store. And she was a very—she was a pretty lady. And she took a shine to him, and they got married, so that's how. She married the grocery store.	9:46
Julie Zwibelman	And then she—	9:47
Amelia Thorpe	And then he died in 1942, and after that she was in charge of the front. And then as long as she could, she worked in the store. And she cooked on the other side of the store, that's where the kitchen was. And then in later years they built her a kitchen in the house, but she still kept up with her customers in the store, and people were so very fond of her, they expected her. She was never lonesome. People always come there, and she liked to cook, too. As long as she could cook.	9:47
Julie Zwibelman	Yeah, you talked about the kind of group of women—	10:46
Amelia Thorpe	Yeah, her friends. She had very good friends. Very supportive. They had a women's lib going, you know, that many years ago. They were very strong, very supportive friends. And Pearl Page was strong.	10:49
Julie Zwibelman	Do you remember any stories they tell you, or advice?	10:59
Amelia Thorpe	The biggest story that Pearl Page told me were about her growing up, out in the deep woods, and how she always knew she wasn't going to marry a farmer because she didn't want to live in the deep woods all her life. And how she, forever, loved her brother and respected him so much for bringing her to the store, and treating her very nicely, and introducing her to nice people. And that's how she gained the store, and she worked very hard with her husband, in his stead.	11:11
Julie Zwibelman	We were talking about kind of deep woods, versus the city. Do you remember, actually this doesn't connect that well, but when you started watching TV, and when you came down—	11:42
Amelia Thorpe	Oh, yeah. My mom was not a fan of TV. So we didn't get a TV when I was in [indistinct 00:12:12]. We were later getting a TV, and my younger sister, she just wanted to see something. She was like, "Pearl Page had a TV," because her son had brought it. He wrote an essay and won a television, so she had a television. And on Sunday evenings, we would be there. We had to go home, my sister Fern was in choir. So my mom, we didn't have a television, until I was in high school. And she was pretty strict about it even then.	12:04
Amelia Thorpe	And I know I really liked, always have liked, UNC channels. Chapel Hill. And one night I was watching, it got pretty late, and she came in there, she didn't care what it was. Just, the television needs to be off. And that's why you don't see a television in this living room now. It was all right for the den, but in the living room, it's about conversation and music, and you just don't sit up in the middle of the room and talk, and watch television. Not her rules, anyway. So, yeah. She was pretty strict about that.	12:11
Julie Zwibelman	Do you play the piano?	13:28
Amelia Thorpe	I played a little bit. Yeah.	13:28
Julie Zwibelman	Did you learn when you—	13:28
Amelia Thorpe	Yeah, I took lessons by the time I was about eight until I finished high school. But it takes constant practice. Do you play?	13:28
Julie Zwibelman	No, I gave up when I was real young.	13:33
Amelia Thorpe	Ah, you got off the hook.	13:53
Julie Zwibelman	Yeah. I don't think I had very much talent. They said, "Okay, you can quit."	13:54
Amelia Thorpe	Oh, parents back then, they said, "Oh no, you're going to go through every year, work at it." Basically, but I'm a person, I had to practice. I didn't get any of it. And I didn't like to practice. So I've practically forgotten. I think I know the scales, but yeah. I'd have to do a lot of practice to be able to play. But the piano belongs in the living room. Oh dear.	13:58
Julie Zwibelman	You also talked about how poetry was such a big part of like, in elementary school, they really—	14:30
Amelia Thorpe	Oh yeah, that you asked me once, I didn't have that history. It was like an integrated part of our learning. We learned James Weldon Johnson and Paul Laurence Dunbar. We had the history of the Black man who was the first public school was named, Pearson School, who was an early educator in Durham. We had pictures of George Washington Carver and Fredrick Douglass in the auditorium. So every time we went in there, it was a constant part of our schooling. And that's different anymore. Yeah, yeah, sometimes, unfortunately, some very positive things are lost these days, behaving now, and they have to go back and try to catch up the part we missed in society.	14:37
Amelia Thorpe	And I think now, in the still—schools that are predominantly Black, there's still a sense that there is an emphasis on African American contributions. I understand there's schools that are predominantly White, it is not. So, that part of our heritage and of our culture, still remains our responsibility. It's the most we can do.	15:46
Julie Zwibelman	Do you remember particular poems, or favorite poems?	16:15
Amelia Thorpe	Oh, I like Paul Laurence Dunbar. "October Morning." I like Paul Laurence. I like—life is like—"My life has been no crystal stair"—that's by—do you know? Yeah, you know what I'm talking about.	16:27
Julie Zwibelman	I know about who you're talking about, but—	16:49
Amelia Thorpe	Yeah. I like most of his. In fact, I read a fascinating piece, a biography of, I'm trying to think of—	16:57
Julie Zwibelman	Langston Hughes.	17:25
Amelia Thorpe	Langston Hughes. Thank you, thank you, sweetie. Yeah. So those are some of the things. And of course I liked [indistinct 00:17:26].	17:25
Julie Zwibelman	And then in college, you'd mentioned before that you were a member of AKA sorority. What was that like?	17:26
Amelia Thorpe	Oh, for then, it was fun. I probably put too much energy in it, and I overdid things. I wanted to belong, I wanted to participate. But as I matured, I realized that that wasn't quite the form of participation I wanted. In undergrad, it was a lot of fun, but I put too much work into it. I busted head, I did. And then I joined a graduate pathway, and then I went to California, and I did my graduate stuff down there. And after a while, I had just had enough of that. I still admire the work that they do, and the women in my sorority are well prepared, well accomplished women. I just, for a while, had worked enough.	17:30
Julie Zwibelman	What kind of work did you do?	18:30
Amelia Thorpe	At the graduate level, we did community work, and we did dances and luncheons and public awareness meetings. We sponsored [indistinct 00:18:50].	18:30
Julie Zwibelman	And at the undergraduate level?	18:50
Amelia Thorpe	Mostly community service, but it was a lot of fun, going to dances with fraternities. But I never had [indistinct 00:19:05] personality [indistinct 00:19:08] now. (laughs). I guess my disappointment was, I never had a date. I was a president of the sorority, but I was kind of isolated. And part of that was my own presentation, I suppose. I'm very sure of it, you have to take responsibility for all of your actions, and all of your history. So, I didn't really, as a very young woman, I didn't present myself as being available, I guess. So, I realize now, I was sad a lot in college. I did my work to the best of my ability, most of the time. But I was very sad. Because I wasn't, there wasn't—part of my balance was not there. Yeah, yeah. But thank goodness I did make it through. It was fun.	18:52
Julie Zwibelman	Were there ever conflicts within the sorority?	20:13
Amelia Thorpe	Oh, of course. Women? (laughs) How could you not, you know? (laughs)	20:16
Julie Zwibelman	How were those resolved?	20:23
Amelia Thorpe	Discussions. Yeah. Or somebody going off to [indistinct 00:20:31]. Then you were elected to a position, but didn't get picked. You'd get picked. There's a part of accepting that responsibility. I guess it's why I need support in that area, I wasn't accepting my responsibility. Yeah.	20:23
Julie Zwibelman	Oh, was there a difference, as far as people who are from Durham in the sorority? Or other—	20:31
Amelia Thorpe	Oh, yeah, that was another thing. In college, anyone could go away to school and stay on campus, because I stayed here. The school was a few blocks away, but it made me an outsider. No matter how much I participated, I was not a dormitory paid-in. And that was a big difference.	21:04
Julie Zwibelman	Were there a lot of students who did come from—	21:29
Amelia Thorpe	The city?	21:30
Julie Zwibelman	Any, outside. From out of town.	21:30
Amelia Thorpe	Oh, it was remarkably diverse. My best friend was from Pennsylvania, and Virginia, and Washington. Yeah, we had quite a few. And I looked through the roster, and one day I saw someone who had come here from Seattle, Washington. I didn't even remember who they were, yeah.	21:31
Julie Zwibelman	So were most of those women in the sorority, was it all diverse as far as where they were from?	22:01
Amelia Thorpe	Yes, yes, because the one I mentioned from Pennsylvania was pretty far. But most of us, of course, most of the students were from North Carolina.	22:05
Julie Zwibelman	Were there big class differences that were clear?	22:09
Amelia Thorpe	You know, I as a person and family, we never emphasized the class difference stuff. I realize now, I was being naïve. Because they were perceiving me in a certain class, and I was told later, many years later. I think it was our twentieth reunion. And the same friend who was from Pennsylvania said, "Did you know, you were always styling." And I was dumbfounded. You know, I live right here, and I walked to school, I didn't have a car, I didn't wear fancy clothes. But I did have a party here at my house once, and maybe that's just how they perceived it. But then I realized why I was never really accepted. Because that's how I was perceived.	22:22
Amelia Thorpe	But now of course, this class thing is all—that's the whole society now. And even I just told a friend, we were having a problem in her neighborhood, and it's about a business that is disreputable. And although our neighborhood is older now, and it's mostly older people and it's an inner-city neighborhood, it's still going through a disreputable place, it's just a nuisance. And I called her to ask her, you know, get her thoughts about it. And she went off, because she lived in New York for so many years, and she's come back here, and she's not very happy. And I could understand it's difficult. But I said to her, "You know," she said, "I don't even drive my car down several streets." And I said, "I know, you upper-middle class people moved out and say, 'don't come through here.'" And I heard myself, and I thought, "Oh Amelia, this is ugly as other people." That was the only thing I could come back with.	23:22
Amelia Thorpe	Anyway, yeah. This whole class issue is—often in most people's minds. I think that that's really the dividing fault, now. Yeah. What class people could be, you could be, really. And what I realized is always been, and I was just naïve. But now, there has been such a large group of people who truly are uneducated, and unemployed, un-cared for. There is lack of real compassion, I think, and it's more political talk. But less real compassion.	24:39
Julie Zwibelman	During the Civil Rights Movement, during the marches and things on campus, was your sorority involved?	25:54
Amelia Thorpe	Yeah, we'd do that—	26:03
Julie Zwibelman	Or what type of students were usually involved?	26:08
Amelia Thorpe	Yeah, the sorority, that's how I came to join the sorority. We would organize, we would go to that. Yeah. Yeah, that was a very use for it. A way that the sorority participated in these things.	26:08
Julie Zwibelman	Was there any dissension among the sorority about how you should respond to the event, or what event you should—	26:08
Amelia Thorpe	Well, we went to these meetings where we were trained as to how to do it. So, there wasn't much dissension, more a matter of, "I've got a test I've got to study for. I believe in this, but I've really got to study, because I want to get out of this school." That was the biggest thing, how much time you could devote to it. There were some who devoted twenty percent of their time. They were willing to miss, not finishing school. I mean, they were really, really that caught up. And somehow that kind of person was needed, but I knew deep inside I was not that kind of person. Yeah.	26:31
Julie Zwibelman	And who did the training?	27:15
Amelia Thorpe	Floyd McKissick. He was—he did a lot of the trainings. Yeah. And some of them.	27:15
Julie Zwibelman	What was he like?	27:28
Amelia Thorpe	Very determined, very angry, but a focused anger. The only thing he ever said that I did not tolerate—at the time I was still very much a big church member, and he said, in the pulpit—because most of our meetings were in the church, because it was the largest place we did to meet. And he said inappropriate things in this setting. "God wasn't going to do anything, God doesn't stop it," he couldn't accept that. And I knew that even speaking from the perspective of God, that if you believe in God, that the God is us. It's what acts. And so, it just sounded like he was shoving the higher power aside, and saying that we had to do all this, and we had to. I just didn't agree with that. But of course I agreed with the rhetoric, to really bring out, to make the calls for the laws.	27:28
Julie Zwibelman	How do you feel about what he was saying now?	28:48
Amelia Thorpe	I still would disagree, even though I'm Buddhist, if I was in church and someone stood behind a pulpit, starting talking about what God couldn't do, what God could—you know, I would not agree with that.	28:51
Julie Zwibelman	Is there a perspective, but your experience with Buddhism, and your perspective on that?	28:55
Amelia Thorpe	Yeah, yeah, there is a new perspective on it. And yet I respect all religions, valid religions, and I respect presenting not to—feel comfortable with all of them, denying or belittling of God, if that's how you call your higher power. And that is, within a Christian framework, what he's referred to. So for them, and I just still have too much respect for the religion to feel comfortable, in some way, [indistinct 00:30:01], it's all, there's just us, it's all there is.	29:17
Julie Zwibelman	What is the Buddhist way to look at—	30:00
Amelia Thorpe	The Buddhist way, for me is, not from a higher power outside, but that Buddha nature within. And so you tap into that Buddha nature, the best part of you comes out. You can change your whole destiny, you can change the law. That it can make you feel it, this form of Buddha in you, the Buddha in you. The older forms of Buddhists, they too have that thinking—Buddhism is not a deism kind of religion. Thinking, the Buddha is you, that's what you can tap into when you change. [Indistinct 00:31:11] anything will change. It's a mystic law, and it's very powerful.	30:18
Julie Zwibelman	Do you think your experiences with the Civil Rights Movement, or other experiences kind of led you to this religion?	30:30
Amelia Thorpe	No, I think my own—there's nothing in my—it's not by happenstance that you come into know about this religion. You've made some calls early that you do believe in a future life, you have made a call. You feel about it, and you're called to practice it. And so I knew, although I had worked very hard in the church, and I had learned a lot, and experienced a lot. I still have good friends. But me personally, I was moving away from it. I didn't know what I was moving to, but I knew I was moving away from it. And it was [indistinct 00:32:45].	31:42
Julie Zwibelman	Did you experience other religions before you found this one?	32:06
Amelia Thorpe	No. I went to different churches, in fact I played the piano for a while in the Catholic church. But I knew when I went there, wasn't very long, and the priest announced for three occasions, they needed someone to play the piano. Well, the church is right over on the hill, and I know a lot of the people that go there. And I kind of looked around, everybody was looking there looking straight out the window. And I said, "Oh shucks, this is the third time this man has asked this." I said, and that time though, the Catholic Church had made some revelation that their hymns, were the hymns I had learned in the Baptist Church. I said, "Oh, gee, this is not Latin or anything strange, I'm going to play the same hymn that I played in the Baptist Church."	32:48
Amelia Thorpe	So I did. I played, I knew that I was not in that, with the idea that I was going to join. And that's another thing. That I realized, what I did realize back then, they're too nice, but they don't ask anybody to join their church. I guess the family? I'm not sure. But they never, in fact, they wondered exactly what was I doing, what was my mother and daddy doing? I'm a full grown woman, [laughs] and I answered him, I said, "My daddy is rested in peace, and my mom is an old lady." It just happens that I'm home with her. [laughs] You know. But I guess what I'm saying looking back is, how important it is, too. I think I realized, to leave home early, so that you don't have people don't perceive you as being just so settled in stuff, that if you do anything different from what they perceive you to do, then they feel free to question whatever you do. So that's one of the things I had to deal with, being a single person in my traditional neighborhood.	33:42
Julie Zwibelman	Do you still get things like that? Do you still live in a traditional neighborhood?	35:01
Amelia Thorpe	Oh very much. Like I say, most of the people in this neighborhood all do that. Yeah.	35:17
Julie Zwibelman	Did you grow up with a lot of traditional?	35:26
Amelia Thorpe	Yes.	35:27
Julie Zwibelman	This goes back to what we were talking about, when you took the training. Do you remember specific things? Parts of the training?	35:35
Amelia Thorpe	Oh, I'm sure it was like army training to get you not to be afraid. But he would come up against brutality, and he would talk certain techniques. And to expect the brutality, [indistinct 00:36:03]. And just the whole thing.	35:42
Julie Zwibelman	Were there equal number of women and men being trained?	36:03
Amelia Thorpe	Yeah, as I recall there was maybe always a few more women. But there were a lot of men. There were a lot of them.	36:08
Julie Zwibelman	Was the environment at all sexist or discriminatory against the women?	36:15
Amelia Thorpe	I didn't think so. Yeah. What I recall, I can remember still having grown up with sisters, we weren't quite on that cutting edge of the men being treated differently from the women. Because we all thought that if we had ability, then we had ability. Now, I realize, that many of, most all of them had gotten married, they were smart enough that in the same way they treated fellows. And I somehow never did, so you know, I never got a date. I was always seen as more of a kind of person that you choose to be president, to do the work, you know. But not one to have fun with. And I guess I'm still perceived that way.	36:24
Julie Zwibelman	And was there any specific work through CORE, or NAACP?	37:33
Amelia Thorpe	We worked through CORE, and some NAACP, but mostly just CORE.	37:39
Julie Zwibelman	Was it younger people?	37:43
Amelia Thorpe	Yes, there was some.	37:43
Julie Zwibelman	Were there any other civil rights organizations?	37:43
Amelia Thorpe	Oh yes. SNCC got started right over at St. Augs. And they had treated—I always knew not to [indistinct 00:38:05] or what our community means here. And I never felt comfortable really with either of the racist talk, whether it was from White people or some Black people, I don't—I didn't agree with that, I never agreed with anything too radical. For example, I thought it was good when the Black Panthers started to give food for the young children. Yet I knew what was behind it. And unfortunately, that overpowered the good they were doing, and some of their leaders never could get out of the mold of being [indistinct 00:38:59]. And it's really sad. But I was never attracted to that level of intensity, violence.	37:43
Amelia Thorpe	And yet, some very brilliant people too, Angela Davis, is a brilliant person, and Kathleen Cleaver, made very well from the Civil Rights, very well. Now, Angela Cleaver was married to a Panther. And Angela Davis is not very old. She's only—and she's still an avant garde, very brilliant woman. But I knew I was never at that level of—I would march, I would go to things, I would support all of the leaders who were doing things that I agreed with, that I felt were effective. And yet not that real radical terror technique.	38:44
Julie Zwibelman	And the SNCC that was in this area, what radical things—	40:29
Amelia Thorpe	You know, it was formed over there, but they never did the radical thing. They took their more radical things I think further South, to Mississippi and Alabama. It was interesting that they actually got formed over here.	40:36
Julie Zwibelman	Do you remember specific leaders of that meeting?	40:44
Amelia Thorpe	I can't recall [indistinct 00:41:11]. But some of them too, just never got out of being heard. Rap Brown, who continued to get in jail for four more—	40:44
Julie Zwibelman	So he remained here?	41:11
Amelia Thorpe	Well, the last time he was in the Las Vegas area I think. But still, it's a [indistinct 00:41:40]. Yeah. And in the whole scheme of things, they certainly had heart. Some of that, I think all of that was necessary, except wasn't the—part that I think was [indistinct 00:42:00].	41:28
Julie Zwibelman	Do you remember specific places that you marched at?	42:01
Amelia Thorpe	Downtown on Main Street, about Walgreens. Any place that had counters that we couldn't eat. Woolworth's, Kress.	42:05
Julie Zwibelman	Was there a certain, any specific incident?	42:07
Amelia Thorpe	The ugliest incident was out on highway—which is called Chapel Hill Boulevard now. I don't think that place is still there. But, one of the waitresses, the waitresses at the restaurant [Indistinct 00:42:30].	42:22
Julie Zwibelman	The waitress?	42:23
Amelia Thorpe	Mm-hmm.	42:43
Julie Zwibelman	And what was the response? Were you there?	42:45
Amelia Thorpe	I was there. It was always to remain in the nonviolent position, to never retaliate anybody. Yeah. Just last summer though, these baseball players, you know, baseball players, an American sport, spit in the face of their own. And, yeah. Yeah, yeah, the people just get out of control.	42:46
Julie Zwibelman	You also traveled to the deeper South, you had already graduated when you went to Mexico.	43:25
Amelia Thorpe	Yes.	43:36
Julie Zwibelman	What big differences did you see there?	43:37
Amelia Thorpe	As to whether it happened here? The intensity of the hatred and [indistinct 00:43:53] that the majority of people had on the other people, is so much more intense than in North Carolina. Especially in this pocket of North Carolina. Durham County, Orange County. It's all around this area where you had the schools, you had the industry, you had the businesses, the economics definitely makes a difference. The ceiling may be some of the same, but when African Americans have a reasonable economic status, there is a definite difference in how the relationship has been predicted.	43:41
Amelia Thorpe	See, traditionally Durham has North Carolina Mutual, downtown, viable downtown business operations, and Mechanics and Farmers Bank, a viable downtown business. And there was many viable upper Black businesses, there was North Carolina College, there was—and all of that formed a community of Black people that lived in very nice communities.	44:31
Amelia Thorpe	It just made a difference. The feeling were definitely low, but the status is a capitalistic society, and your economic position is a powerful position. So, Durham had that as an advantage as opposed to some other cities. It's just like in [indistinct 00:45:59], the maxes in society, you know, the structure. But in Durham, actually some of the first hardcore demonstrations were formed at an ice parlor called the Royal Ice Cream Parlor over in North Durham, it was just a free-form act of [indistinct 00:46:11]—	45:14

Amelia Thorpe	Yeah, except for their own separate [indistinct 00:00:01] their own—	0:00
Julie Zwibelman	And when was that?	0:01
Amelia Thorpe	'60 or '61.	0:01
Julie Zwibelman	Were you there?	0:01
Amelia Thorpe	I wasn't there, but it's celebrated [indistinct 00:00:18] the year of demonstration here.	0:04
Julie Zwibelman	And was that SNCC North Carolina?	0:17
Amelia Thorpe	That was a minister. A young minister [indistinct 00:00:19]. He was definitely at the Heritage Center last year—Moore, Reverend Moore. That was his name.	0:18
Julie Zwibelman	What surprised you going deeper south on that trip?	0:57
Amelia Thorpe	I guess I wasn't expecting that core of highway patrolmen to come. And they were ready to beat our heads, and to put us into jail, because we had accidentally gone into the regular toilet facility.	1:07
Julie Zwibelman	Was that your only encounter with—	1:16
Amelia Thorpe	That was my only encounter down there with anything [indistinct 00:01:36].	1:31
Julie Zwibelman	And did you stop and stay places on the way down?	1:39
Amelia Thorpe	No. We did the riding straight through. And until we got past Birmingham, they saw us riding in the bus together, so they gave us a whole separate bus and we were delighted, really, because that meant that we could stretch out, because we was just riding commercially, and under that [indistinct 00:02:12], they gave us a whole separate bus just out of—	1:45
Julie Zwibelman	Just in Birmingham?	2:06
Amelia Thorpe	Out of Birmingham down to Mexico City—no, to Monterey. So we got to Monterey. Then we switched to the Mexican buses. But they said Mexico City.	2:22
Julie Zwibelman	And who was the group that—	2:31
Amelia Thorpe	There was an American [indistinct 00:02:45].	2:44
Julie Zwibelman	And how did you get involved—	2:46
Amelia Thorpe	I was working on campus, and I lived in [indistinct 00:02:51]. So I saw it as an opportunity to go to Mexico. At that time, I had not been outside the United States, and I was ready to travel. It was a wonderful trip.	2:48
Julie Zwibelman	Did you get any different perspective on United States—?	2:49
Amelia Thorpe	Oh yes, oh yes. Indeed so. The first time I had ever seen another country was really the cartoons.	3:13
Julie Zwibelman	Yeah.	3:24
Amelia Thorpe	Of the United States, how, especially they were capitalizing on the Civil Rights Movement. And what was affecting was their own condition in Mexico, which was very [indistinct 00:03:38] at the time. And the Mexicans, who have more Indian ancestors, rather than Spanish Castilian ancestors, definitely are at a disadvantage. And they were very proud of what was not Indian, even in a small village. And it was the same who were basically Mexican planters, with real farms. Farms, for the most part.	3:24
Julie Zwibelman	So the cartoons were—	4:18
Amelia Thorpe	Oh, they sold the Uncle Sam looking like Sambo. Oh, it was silly, really. I mean, despite all of that, I always felt good to be an American. And they were almost offensive, except apparently you could see that the people in Mexico really suffered too, but at that time, they didn't have the avenues, for peaceful demonstrations—and they still don't. They still have to kill and have a rebellion to bring about any kind of change. So despite that flaw in our society, we had had the wonderful advantage of a leader, Martin Luther King, who being the leader who made his whole life based upon non-violent demonstrations, they still had the power to move and to change.	4:24
Amelia Thorpe	Now unfortunately, it ended his life, and so did his mentor, Mahatma Gandhi. But he certainly gave the people a path, a hope, and a way so that it raised to change society. Whereas in Mexico, as I say, that still is not particular. They still have to revamp the standard way of things, the killing, the assassinations. They still got after that work to change the state.	4:57
Julie Zwibelman	Did you find yourself defending the United States?	6:18
Amelia Thorpe	Somewhat, yeah. We all do it, because we forget. If you've gone through some bad things however—yeah, you just do. You don't realize how nasty you are until you get outside of the country. And then you have to talk and have dialog with people that are very angry, and are hateful but really of their own situations, yes.	6:22
Julie Zwibelman	Did you ever travel anywhere else outside the country?	6:58
Amelia Thorpe	Yes, I did, in 1970, I went on a visit to six countries in Europe. And I tell you, by the time I got back, and the plane was flying over New York, and I saw the Statue of Liberty, I was so happy. And it was a wonderful trip and I thoroughly enjoyed every bit, but you tell me about one cathedral more, and I would have said, "No, thank you." Yeah, I've had it with cathedrals and all of that. Just take me back to the USA. But now I'm fairly ready to leave from North Carolina.	7:01
Amelia Thorpe	Three years ago, I went to The Bahamas for the first time, and that was my ultimate [indistinct 00:07:49]. Yeah, yeah, the water down there, oh, gosh. So yeah, I do. I really like [indistinct 00:08:00]. As they say, we gain a broader perspective. And once you do that, you just can't be settled in your narrow ways anymore. Have you traveled?	7:40
Julie Zwibelman	Yeah.	8:12
Amelia Thorpe	Yeah?	8:13
Julie Zwibelman	Did you find that race was an issue in Europe when you were traveling?	8:18
Amelia Thorpe	No, just Americans who don't speak the language—French—if you don't speak French, French people don't like that. In Mexico, I didn't speak Spanish, but I did not feel it was a problem like it was in France, or even in Italy. When I'd speak in Italian, it didn't seem to be as big a problem as it was in France. Yes, or Germany or Holland, Amsterdam, or even Switzerland. It was only in France when I got the feeling. Or not just a feeling, but I got direct almost confrontations that just wind up, just kind of feeling disdainful about, because you don't speak French.	8:23
Julie Zwibelman	What was your favorite thing—	9:18
Amelia Thorpe	Place? Florence, Italy, the [indistinct 00:09:33], really beautiful, I think I would say that was my favorite place.	9:32
Julie Zwibelman	This is different than travel, but—	9:40
Amelia Thorpe	Oh, okay. It's all right—	9:44
Julie Zwibelman	We were talking in class, one of the women who was interviewed was talking about a secret game between North Carolina Central—or, between North Carolina College and Duke in the 1940's. There was a basketball game.	9:45
Amelia Thorpe	Oh really?	9:56
Julie Zwibelman	Yeah. And I was wondering if you had ever heard of secret other, either sporting events, or other things that were going on secretly that were really—	10:01
Amelia Thorpe	No, because like I say, by the time I got involved with Duke students, they were just very open, you know, like with the church organization. We made common groups together of students who belonged to the church organization. The only thing maybe, and this wasn't so secret, but my minister, I think I mentioned him, Reverend Miles Mark Fisher? He was well recognized and respected by Duke professors. I think he was allowed to use the library, I think, and that would have been very, very quietly, though. I think he mentioned it just once in one of the sermons that he had been allowed to use the library. I know that he had enough respect that [indistinct 00:11:17], the Baptist, came to preach at White Rock Church.	10:13
Julie Zwibelman	A White preacher?	11:20
Amelia Thorpe	[Indistinct 00:11:24]. Mm-hmm.	11:20
Julie Zwibelman	And what was the community's response to him?	11:20
Amelia Thorpe	Oh. The church community was very pleased.	11:25
Julie Zwibelman	Were there ever any integrated sports teams or sports events or anything like that?	11:37
Amelia Thorpe	No. Was that in the forties, there was this—?	11:45
Julie Zwibelman	There was one secret game, yeah.	11:46
Amelia Thorpe	Yeah. In the forties, NCCU had a great—was it the basketball team?	11:48
Julie Zwibelman	That they won.	11:48
Amelia Thorpe	Yeah, they have a great, they haven't had teams like that since. Maybe a few, but the forties, the early fifties, was the peak of their basketball.	11:49
Julie Zwibelman	Another thing that we had talked about in class a little bit is Ann Atwater and CP Ellis, are you familiar with them?	13:02
Amelia Thorpe	Mm-hmm.	13:02
Julie Zwibelman	Did you ever when the whole controversy was going on, and they were working together? Did you hear about that?	13:02
Amelia Thorpe	Yes, Ann Atwater has always been outspoken, she's a tremendous actor, she is a legend in the Civil Rights Movement. But yes, I heard about it, but I didn't hear them, see them get together and talk about it later as friends, until that happened.	13:02
Julie Zwibelman	Another thing, did you see a big change in the tobacco workers you met? When—while the tobacco industry was really going down, did you see a big change?	13:03
Amelia Thorpe	Mm-hmm. Working in a tobacco factory was the reason my grandfather came to—Durham offered the average laborer the best place to work. One of the best places to work in North Carolina. And after the Korean War, the government said that any company supplying the federal government or the army had to be integrated, had to have equal employment. All employees had to have equal access to certain jobs, like begin to have jobs on the machines and to be supervisors. They made very very good money. They had sharing plans. Many retired, early retired tobacco workers lived at the same level as— I know a couple people. And they lived very well. They got a very big sum.	13:15
Amelia Thorpe	When the tobacco factories started closing and moving, whole communities were affected. Fortunately, this community was left okay with the college. They were teaching, and North Carolina Mutual. But the West End, and Walltown and North Durham, they were communities that were very dependent because there was many, many of them who worked for the tobacco company. And then the American Tobacco Company left. That's when those regions collapsed, and as I said, it affected the persons in North Durham and Walltown. So as much as I agree, and I think it's true that smoking is hazardous to your health, and it leads to cancer, it seems that as soon as Black people started suddenly having good jobs in the factory, and being able to live well that's when the whole cancer thing came out, and the factories stopped making more cigarettes. And they moved away, and they cut back.	14:24
Amelia Thorpe	And still, cancer is an incurable disease for many people. But as I said, mostly, not nearly as many people are smoking, which is good. It is good, except that when the adults stopped, the teenagers took it up. And teenage girls! Which leads—which is why as many women die from heart attacks, and have lung cancer as men. And the first lung cancer that I knew of were men. But now, the records show that as many women have lung cancer. And lung cancer is not by—you can have lung cancer and you have never smoked a cigarette in your life, but smoking every day has been, for a long period of time, it has leads to lung cancer and other forms of cancer.	15:43
Julie Zwibelman	Do you think the tobacco industry became more vulnerable because Blacks were getting a lot more power in the community?	16:49
Amelia Thorpe	Oh, that little theory is just a private thing that I think sometimes. You think, "Why? What did cause this to happen?" And being African American, and having experienced some of these things, those kind of thoughts come to mind, and that's kind of normal. But the tobacco industry and tobacco farmers, you'll notice that some very prominent Black tobacco farmers who have lost or sold their land. In North Carolina, it still isn't enough. The Research Triangle Park cannot make up for what the tobacco industry created—the economy.	16:54
Amelia Thorpe	So it's a great challenge for North Carolina, to find hireable occupations for people who aren't going to make them responsible—that's what they're going to say. They hopefully can be trained to do work like they did in the factories. But they are not going to college. A whole lot of these kids, they are not going to college. And at this point, there is not a viable market to make up for the gap the tobacco industries has left, a big gap there, yeah.	17:25
Amelia Thorpe	Hospitals. Duke Hospital's changing for everybody, and so there's more people that—you know, Duke employs more people than any other institution in Durham, but they still can't employ everybody. And everybody can't work at the Research Triangle Park. So hopefully somehow, some other—and some new business is supposed to be coming to the Research Triangle Park, I don't know the nature of the work, but it's going to hire about 2000 people.	18:44
Julie Zwibelman	Yeah. Do you think Duke's role in the community has changed?	19:18
Amelia Thorpe	It's starting to change. I think in all honesty, Duke wants to be more involved in the community. I think they've had to become more open to, what's the name now, diversity? Always Duke made some commitment in the Black community, like the BN Duke Auditorium. The Duke families, like I say, they've always been—some, some kind of overture, but I think now, with the new president, I think that there is a little aggressive commitment to get involved in the community, make more contributions in the community.	19:26
Julie Zwibelman	As far as Duke University, is there a certain perception—	20:14
Amelia Thorpe	Oh yeah. [indistinct 00:20:45]—	20:44
Julie Zwibelman	—about—what was that?	20:44
Amelia Thorpe	It's wealthier. But I think someone called it the little princedom of North Carolina.	20:44
Julie Zwibelman	Do you think those perceptions still—	20:45
Amelia Thorpe	Form our distinct—? Yeah. I think the latest incident related to Black workers who were being displaced, and they assigned—I think they're in court now. That's the first time ever that any African American, blue collar worker, had taken—a non-professional worker had taken Duke University to court. That was a big thing. Yeah.	20:50
Julie Zwibelman	You said last week that you were working at the polls?	21:23
Amelia Thorpe	Yeah. Yeah, I had a pretty good day. We got at least fifty percent of our registered voters out. Which is out there. In Durham, we got the Justice what we wanted to get, Bill Bell got—pretty happy, the reelection results. And our new person turned out. Again, I think I'm missing—Durham is still so Black and White and the larger world, it's not like that. And hopefully, there's more Hispanic and Asians that they'll be some other [indistinct 00:22:22] coming in, so it's become a little less Black and White.	21:40
Julie Zwibelman	Do you think we have become that?	22:30
Amelia Thorpe	At this point, because one of the biggest things and most difficult situations here in Durham County is the school system. And it's still Black and White—what with the bus and all the other people. Just to be about Black and White.	22:31
Julie Zwibelman	And what did you think about the national election?	22:56
Amelia Thorpe	Oh, I wanted Clinton to win. I just, I don't say sarcastically. [Indistinct 00:23:06] his presentation, I thought his presentation was bad. I think it's bad for somebody to run to be a national leader to be mean like this. He didn't obviously know how to have any other proponents, and that's too bad. But Americans still love him, he is president. There are many things about Clinton that we may not agree with or whatever. At least he has an upbeat, pretty on paper. He is intelligent.	23:00
Amelia Thorpe	I think his meanings around—nobody says before him, nobody says—but certainly you can have a smile on your face if you want a million people to vote for you. You can be gracious to voters. I don't think he knows how. I think he thought just on who he was and he was sure he could win, he was the president. Somebody tell him, told him a few things, you know. Yeah, so I was very pleased that he won. Now I got to see who all his cabinet [indistinct 00:24:32] that gives him an opportunity to hopefully put some African Americans in.	23:06
Amelia Thorpe	I personally think he should give—the man who ran and lost to Jesse Helms?	24:43
Julie Zwibelman	Gantt.	24:43
Amelia Thorpe	Gantt. I think he should give him some kind of reward, I do. The man is brave to get out there and run against Jesse Helms anyway because Hunt did not do it against him. And [indistinct 00:25:07] wouldn't have run against him. He said, "I will never give up my nice TV show and my comfortable position, because I'll get out there and run against someone." I would imagine he has no respect for him whatsoever. So Mr. Helms has got in there [laughs], and it is. It's awful. It's awful, but that's North Carolina's legacy. Got an awful lot of people who they believe in, that's it. Because as long as there's money in the pot, what he wants to get done, he does get it done. And nothing lasts forever. [laughs] Not even Jesse Helms, no. There's some—there's a stopping point for him too.	24:43
Julie Zwibelman	Do you see national too being as far as like cabinet, like, local, state, and the cabinet, do you think there's other other national changes or policies that you think would really—?	26:05
Amelia Thorpe	No. I mean, because California sets the tone, and they have. They ended Affirmative Action and they legalized marijuana for medicinal purposes. I heard [indistinct 00:26:32], Black author, on the radio the other day and she was saying some sound statements, she made sound statements. And she said that now parents need to try to teach their children that medical purposes are not pleasurable purposes. Not marijuana is something you should enjoy, lighten up. And that because Affirmative Action isn't in here that more serious considerations have been planned, that you have to be ready for tutorial services, for mentors, for collective and recognizing people with potential and really preparing them, so that they break out, compete for their own positions and jobs and contracts and—which is a harsh reality.	26:17
Julie Zwibelman	[indistinct 00:27:48].	27:48
Amelia Thorpe	Personally, I know that affirmative action was not unfair because the other way had been selected, so now we're trying to be selected on this way. Okay, so now that's just the past. Somehow you're going back to a more equitable method. However, you still have this group of people who are not. And so it's going to be up to us to really, really be serious about identifying and monitoring and tutoring the group of children, people who really have the abilities, that really have the desires and the opportunity to fulfill those desires. And realize that their potential—higher, fulfilling their potential.	27:48
Julie Zwibelman	Yeah, California, does it seem very different from when you was there?	27:57
Amelia Thorpe	Oh, it's more conservative. I have seen it become much more conservative. I came on the edge of the [indistinct 00:29:01]. It's very conservative.	28:00
Julie Zwibelman	Can we—just going back to California, you said you were involved in the NAACP there?	29:01
Amelia Thorpe	A little bit—	29:23
Julie Zwibelman	What issues were they focused on—	29:24
Amelia Thorpe	They were focusing on having a weak leader. [Indistinct 00:29:24] and no matter right or wrong, NAACP leaders, as long as they is outspoken and taking risks, and made themselves known, and this particular person had not done that. And had an opportunity to support some affirmative action that had been going on, and just kind of clear, let it slide. And the people who came out of the old days of the NAACP during the Civil Rights Movement, that just was not the onus that the NAACP was supposed to take, it was a mutual thing.	29:24
Julie Zwibelman	Did you feel because California was a lot more diverse, was the nature of the Black community there very different?	30:02
Amelia Thorpe	Oh yeah, sure. Most people who were born in California, they had no idea really, they couldn't. With the Civil Rights struggles of the South—being denied access to eating places, the toilets, the first floor of theaters, the schools, and they didn't know. They had no concept of that stuff. Only the ones who were older who had come out of the segregated South really knew. That's what I would say. And most of these people who were in college when [indistinct 00:30:55] was president were older people, older than me, yeah.	30:11
Julie Zwibelman	Was California as open as it was supposed to be?	31:05
Amelia Thorpe	Yeah.	31:08
Julie Zwibelman	Yeah?	31:09
Amelia Thorpe	Yeah.	31:09
Julie Zwibelman	What about when you went up north? Do you think that was open and—	31:13
Amelia Thorpe	Yeah, I liked San Francisco better than Los Angeles, because it had the structure. I like the little structure in a city. LA is beautiful, but it is wide open. It's just wide open, [indistinct 00:31:30] it's Hollywood. It's the glamor of—and I'm sure there are a lot of people there who work there, but Hollywood sets the tone. [indistinct 00:31:46] and the high rises, and the business, the banking. Unfortunately, native San Franciscans are very unhappy about the Manhattan invasion of San Francisco. So many New Yorkers have come in, and are trying to run things.	31:16
Julie Zwibelman	Do you think that Durham is having any kind of—? They say that more people from New York are coming in, do you see it changing Durham as far as that goes?	32:06
Amelia Thorpe	Oh yeah, Durham has changed a whole lot. I think part of this class of people is a result of more people coming here from North where class is more recognized. It seems like—oh yeah, everything now is at the shopping centers and the shopping malls. It's further away from the older communities. People are more about their personal agendas. In fact, our old church, White Rock, just adopted an elementary school. And there are teachers in the school, retired teachers, who are going to go into the school to tutor. I hope they're teaching to read, because my sister teaches 11th grade, and she says it is very sad, 11th graders do not know how to read. So of course they can't write anything. And they've gotten all the way to the 11th grade.	32:28
Amelia Thorpe	So there's always that struggle for balance. I think there are many people together, that a lot of community work has to be done. It just has to be done, and at the same time, there are many other people who live as far out in the north and as far out in the south as they can, and all they fuss about is, "No, Durham County and Durham City should not be one municipality." But it definitely should be. It would help the revenue, they're about to tax the city people to death. And as I said, there's no tax-producing industry, like the tobacco industries was, that has replaced the tobacco industry.	33:52
Julie Zwibelman	Do you think that they will combine?	34:51
Amelia Thorpe	Eventually I think so, but it's going to be a big fuss, because that's why people move way out in the county. They pay less on goods. Fabulous houses, they don't have to pay taxes, and don't have to be bothered with city bonds and all that kind of stuff. But it causes the decay of the inner city and it happens over and over. You see this happened in the really huge cities like New York, and Detroit, those cities. In fact, a city no larger than Durham could allow that same kind of thing to happen, but it's because the tax base is dwindling and people are moving further and further away from the inner city so they won't have to pay higher taxes.	34:52
Julie Zwibelman	What do you define as inner city here?	35:50
Amelia Thorpe	This whole area from about two, three miles radius north and south of Main Street. mm-hmm.	35:55
Julie Zwibelman	What direction do you think the community's going? Like what do you see are the future issues?	36:09
Amelia Thorpe	The school issue is a continuing one. Affordable housing and jobs. Job training so they're prepared. When they finish high school, they have done well to finish high school, and they need to be ready to be trained to have a good paying job. So those same basic issues.	36:18
Julie Zwibelman	When you were growing up, did you see those as issues when you were growing—	36:56
Amelia Thorpe	No, but we were segregated, you see? And as long as everything was segregated, it was all right.	36:59
Julie Zwibelman	Do you feel more just content now?	37:05
Amelia Thorpe	Yeah, absolutely, which is good. It had to come. It had to come, yeah. Durham is in many ways, a lot less friendly, and yet particular groups are trying to do community things. But in general, it's a less friendly city. Urban renewal just literally and physically split the city in half, and destroyed a part of the city. And there will just always be feelings about that.	37:06
Julie Zwibelman	You said last time, that urban renewal, even before it happened, a lot of the businesses were moving, you said, or changing?	37:56
Amelia Thorpe	Before actual urban renewals, the people that owned a lot of the businesses had grown older, and they were not in a position to buy back and then restore it again. There were just a few who were in a position to buy a new building, within urban renewal structure.	38:10
Julie Zwibelman	Do you see urban renewal really as the very clear dividing line between—	38:40
Amelia Thorpe	Urban renewal has just divided the city, and restored part of the Black community. It was substandard, but it was viable because the businesses had the houses behind there. Now you see all this rehabilitation. Some of it was not worth that, but that area could have been re-created rather than building all these housing projects that have just caused trouble. But at the time, housing projects was what the goal was. But that is not a viable, suitable way to have people living.	38:46
Julie Zwibelman	Are there other things that you want me to touch on or [indistinct 00:39:48]?	39:44
Amelia Thorpe	In terms of some other positive things, I think our Human Relations Committee is working real hard to remediate some of the hard feelings. I think with our last elections of the commissioners showed that people here don't like mean, ugly-talking, asking people, because Mr. [Indistinct 00:40:21], for all his expertise, he was mean, and he was ugly-talking, and that's not representative of clear thinking, responsible people. I'm sure he knows that now, yeah. Again, it is unfortunate that it has to be—"See, now we got re-balanced, and so we can outvote the two Whites." Yeah, I don't like that. In the reality of what we have to do, that's the way it has to be. So I hope at some point it don't have to be like that. Like if it won't be so Black and White, that the whole Durham community is more Hispanics, and more Asians, and more people, and just making truly this a better city for all the people, and access to all opportunities, yeah.	39:47
Julie Zwibelman	What is the Human Relations Committee?	41:31
Amelia Thorpe	That's a city committee that addresses grievances that come up mostly in the city personnel, I think. But in the larger community too.	41:36
Julie Zwibelman	What kind of issues [indistinct 00:41:52]?	41:51
Amelia Thorpe	Mostly hiring practice, and not only hiring, but then wages, and then medical benefits, grievances, those kinds of grievances. And I'm sure they play some part in the grievances of these non-professional African Americans at Duke.	41:51
Julie Zwibelman	Is there anything else that—	42:24
Amelia Thorpe	No, it's interesting to me that urban renewal, though, has given me an opportunity to talk from a historical perspective. I never thought that I would until I got a little older than I am now. But right within a few short years. Hayti is a historical topic. The face of my larger community did change, forever. Mm-hmm.	42:24
Julie Zwibelman	How long after the highway went through were there foreseeable, visible signs of change?	43:07
Amelia Thorpe	It stayed blank, just open space. And there still is a lot of open space up there. But for over twenty years, there was nothing but the highway and the projects, and the street going through. And it was like a war zone, because there was nothing. And then finally they got Hayti Heritage, shopping centers down the hill. And then they built Phoenix Square. And now they're building Rolling Hills. And building some— someone was saying, those houses that they're building right on that hill, if we have another tornado, that house is going to land up in Lakewood Street.	43:27
Amelia Thorpe	So there's still a lot of monitoring, I guess, that needs to be going on about what kinds of affordable housing are being built. Frankly, I have more faith in the rehabilitation of some of those older houses up on Cleveland Street and near downtown. That section of town than I do the newer stuff that they're building. It's just that those neighborhoods still have not become where working people, a good number of working people live. And they used to be houses for the factory. That's where those communities were, and they were working people. So we definitely need some more industry, tax-payers, laborers in the industry. Yes.	44:18
Julie Zwibelman	Okay, thanks.	45:06

Item Info

Title:

Amelia Thorpe interview recording, 1996 November 11

Date:

November 11, 1996

Creator:

Thorpe, Amelia

Contributor:

Zwibelman, Julie

Description:

Name: Amelia Pride Thorpe; Date of birth: 1940; Place of birth: Durham, NC; Occupation(s): pharmacy assistant; librarian; juvenile probation work; Residence: Durham, NC
Informant ID: 1271; Interviewed by Julie Zwibelman.

Format:

Language:

English

Digital Collection:

Behind the Veil

Source Collection:

Behind the Veil: Documenting African American Life in the Jim Crow South interviews, photographs, and project records, circa 1864-2011, bulk 1990-2004

Series:

Related Resources:

See below

Provenance:

The David M. Rubenstein Rare Book and Manuscript Library acquired the Records of the Behind the Veil Oral History Project from the Duke University Center for Documentary Studies in 1997, 1998, 2000, and 2002.

Rights:

Limited Re-Use

CC BY-NC 4.0

Rights Note:

Copyright for content created by the Behind the Veil project is held by Duke University and made available to the public using a Creative Commons Attribution / Non-commercial (CC-BY-NC) license.

Identifier:

RL00170-CS-0046
1eb5b49e0c00b98b3c3b985090badd0e
behindtheveil
c4e7d0b5-6777-4f5d-8e0f-3abe7004400d
ark:/87924/r4tx3hf8v
c4e7d0b5-6777-4f5d-8e0f-3abe7004400d

Permalink:

https://idn.duke.edu/ark:/87924/r4tx3hf8v

Sponsor:

Sponsor this Digital Collection

Amelia Thorpe interview recording, 1996 November 11

Transcript

Item Info

1. Amelia Thorpe administrative file, 1996

2. Amelia Thorpe interview recording, 1996 October 28

John Hope Franklin Research Center

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Amelia Thorpe interview recording, 1996 November 11

Transcript

Item Info

Related Items

John Hope Franklin Research Center

More Info & Options