James McCollom (primary interviewee) and Irene McCollom interview recording, 1994 August 05

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Charles Houston	Please, would you state your name and your birthdate and place of birth?	0:01
James Earl McCollom	My name is James E. McCollom. I was born on March the 7th, 1923 in Kingstree, South Carolina.	0:06
Charles Houston	And what county is that in, please?	0:16
James Earl McCollom	Williamsburg.	0:18
Charles Houston	And could you talk please a little about your family background, your grandparents, your parents?	0:21
James Earl McCollom	Well, my grandparents lived in Alabama, and we didn't get a chance to see them too frequently. My grandmother on my mother's side did stay with us for a while, right prior to her passing, which was only for about six months. But other than that, I never remember having met my grandfather on my mother's side.	0:27
Charles Houston	Do you know what your grandparents did in Alabama, were they—	0:56
James Earl McCollom	Well, they lived on a farm, so I'm assuming that they were farmers for the most part.	0:59
Charles Houston	Okay. Were they landowners?	1:05
James Earl McCollom	As far as I know, yes.	1:06
Charles Houston	Okay. And on your father's side, were they also from Alabama?	1:08
James Earl McCollom	No, he was up from the upper state South Carolina. Yeah, Pickens County, I believe it was where they came out of. Around the Greenville area.	1:14
Charles Houston	And how did your parents—They were from very different areas. How did they meet?	1:34
James Earl McCollom	Yes, they were. Well, they met, the way I understand it, in Atlanta, Georgia, where he was in school at Gammon Theological Seminary, and she was a student at Clark College.	1:41
Charles Houston	Okay. Your father was at which seminary? I'm sorry.	1:55
James Earl McCollom	Gammon Theological Theological Seminary.	1:58
Charles Houston	And your mother was at Clark?	2:03
James Earl McCollom	Yes.	2:04
Charles Houston	Do you know what his parents did in northern South Carolina? Were they also—	2:10
James Earl McCollom	They lived on a farm, so I always imagined them as being some type of dirt farmers.	2:17
Charles Houston	Okay.	2:23
James Earl McCollom	Yeah.	2:23
Charles Houston	But your father had a college education, so it was fairly unusual, unless the student was the child of a landowner, it's fairly unusual for—	2:28
James Earl McCollom	Well, he went to school.	2:41
Charles Houston	Your father then became a minister?	2:47
James Earl McCollom	Yes. He became a United Methodist minister.	2:48
Charles Houston	Is that what brought him here?	2:50
James Earl McCollom	Yes. Eventually brought him here, yes. A long ways getting here, but they eventually got here.	2:52
Charles Houston	Do you know the story about their journey here?	3:00
James Earl McCollom	Well, being a Methodist minister, I guess, as you're probably aware that they moved rather frequently, and we were no different. I don't know exactly how many places they moved from prior to my being born, but I was born in Kingstree, and we moved from there to Camden, South Carolina. And from Camden, we moved to Orangeburg over to Bamberg, South Carolina, and back to Orangeburg. But prior to that, they'd lived in the Piedmont section of South Carolina, and in the PeeDee area of South Carolina.	3:03
Charles Houston	I've heard that term before, but I don't know how to spell it, the PeeDee area.	3:51
James Earl McCollom	Well, that's this abbreviation, I imagine. P-E-E-D-E-E.	3:55
Charles Houston	Okay. And when did your parents come here? When did they settle here in Orangeburg? You said they came up to Orangeburg, Bamberg and then back here.	4:04
James Earl McCollom	Correct. Well, we came to Orangeburg in about 1930, '31, from Camden.	4:11
Charles Houston	And how old were you at that time? Oh, let's see. You were born in 1923. So you were still a lad of seven years old.	4:22
James Earl McCollom	Entering elementary school.	4:29
Charles Houston	Right. And you went to elementary school here at—	4:30
James Earl McCollom	I started in Camden at Mather Academy, and we came to Orangeburg and I was enrolled in the Claflin Elementary School over at the college.	4:36
Charles Houston	Okay. And Claflin then went grades one to—	4:56
James Earl McCollom	Well, Claflin, it was a college.	4:59
Charles Houston	All grades.	5:04
James Earl McCollom	All grades, yeah.	5:05
Charles Houston	Your family wasn't in Bamberg very long?	5:11
James Earl McCollom	No, about two and a half years.	5:16
Charles Houston	Okay. And then you came back here?	5:17
James Earl McCollom	Then we came back to Orangeburg.	5:19
Charles Houston	Did you continue going to school at Claflin while your family was in Bamberg?	5:23
James Earl McCollom	No, I transferred to the high school. In fact, that's where I finished high school, in Bamberg.	5:27
Charles Houston	Rather than at Claflin?	5:34
James Earl McCollom	Well, I didn't have a choice. The whole family moved to Bamberg.	5:35
Charles Houston	Oh, okay. I see. Your family was there for your last two and a half years.	5:39
James Earl McCollom	That's correct. That's right. That's while he was pastoring in Bamberg.	5:51
Charles Houston	Okay. Were you an only child?	5:54
James Earl McCollom	No, no. No. I'm one of seven.	5:57
Charles Houston	And which number were you?	6:06
James Earl McCollom	Well, I'm number six. Yeah, number six.	6:18
Charles Houston	So you were here through probably grade ten in Orangeburg. You attended Claflin probably grades one through ten?	6:18
James Earl McCollom	Well, not really. I did transfer to Felton Laboratory School on State College's campus for a while. In fact, when I left Felton, I went back to Claflin High School.	6:26
Charles Houston	Okay. Why did you transfer to Felton from Claflin?	6:43
James Earl McCollom	Well, I really don't know, except that Claflin charges a fee. And I don't think we had to pay to go to Felton at that time.	6:48
Charles Houston	Okay. Claflin itself is a Methodist school.	7:00
James Earl McCollom	Is a private Methodist College. Correct.	7:03
Charles Houston	It was United Methodist?	7:04
James Earl McCollom	Well, then it was just Methodist Episcopal at that time.	7:08
Charles Houston	Okay.	7:11
Irene McCollom	It didn't become United until they merged.	7:11
James Earl McCollom	United till recently. Right, until we merged with the other group.	7:16
Irene McCollom	With the White and Black Methodist churches merged, and then we became United Methodist. And that was about 15 years ago, probably.	7:22
James Earl McCollom	Yeah. Not much longer than that.	7:25
Charles Houston	But previously the Black church was Methodist Episcopal?	7:33
Irene McCollom	Yes.	7:36
James Earl McCollom	Yes.	7:36
Charles Houston	Okay. And Felton was a state-supported school and you didn't have to pay.	7:36
James Earl McCollom	That's correct. That's right. I don't know. I don't think we had to pay to go to Felton. No.	7:44
Irene McCollom	At United, they didn't have a public school in Orangeburg till 19, what? '35 or something like that?	7:52
James Earl McCollom	Oh boy.	8:02
Irene McCollom	That's why all the students went to Claflin or Felton, because they didn't have a public school in Orangeburg till later.	8:02
Charles Houston	I think the old school was torn down and the elementary school was torn down, and the new brick building was built with a high school class was added in '38 is what [indistinct 00:08:16].	8:07
James Earl McCollom	Well, yeah, I don't remember. Yeah. Okay.	8:16
Charles Houston	When you were living here and attending—Well, I suppose, so that I'm clear, I'd like to know what grade you switched from Claflin to Felton.	8:23
James Earl McCollom	Felton to Claflin. Okay. I think I must have gone to Felton in the fifth grade, and then that's how I started catching up with myself, I guess.	8:44
Charles Houston	What do you mean?	8:56
James Earl McCollom	Because I stayed there until my seventh grade year, and that was as high as Felton went, to seventh grade. So when I left there, I went to the ninth grade at Claflin.	9:00
Charles Houston	Okay. So then you went grades eight and nine at Claflin?	9:15
James Earl McCollom	That's right.	9:19
Charles Houston	When you said you started catching up with yourself—	9:21
James Earl McCollom	Well, I was ahead of a lot of my other friends in terms of what grade I was in, because when I went to Bamberg, they only had 11 grades, and then I graduated over there, which meant I was only 20 years old when I graduated from high school, from college rather.	9:26
Charles Houston	Okay. So you graduated, so you attended grades 10 and 11 at Bamberg, and then you went to college?	9:53
James Earl McCollom	That's correct.	9:58
Charles Houston	And where did you go to school?	9:58
James Earl McCollom	Well, my first two years of college was at Voorhees Junior College in Denmark, South Carolina. And after that, I came back over to South Carolina State where I graduated.	10:03
Charles Houston	And what year did you graduate? You graduated in '20, so it was '43.	10:26
James Earl McCollom	That's correct.	10:29
Charles Houston	Was there a difference? I mean, both Claflin and Felton were private schools, and one was religiously affiliated and the other was a state school, but was there a difference between them?	10:38
James Earl McCollom	Well, we couldn't tell any basic difference. The teachers seemed to have been all been about the same.	10:54
Irene McCollom	But Felton was a little more prestigious for Black folk than-	11:03
James Earl McCollom	Yeah, because it's kind of a laboratory school.	11:06
Irene McCollom	And it still is.	11:09
James Earl McCollom	Yeah.	11:10
Charles Houston	What was that difference, that prestige based on, because—	11:11
Irene McCollom	I've never been able to understand it. I'm not from here.	11:17
James Earl McCollom	Or who you were, really, who you knew, whatever. Yeah, that's the way I always looked at it.	11:20
Charles Houston	But the parents of the children who went to Felton were a bit more affluent, maybe, than—	11:29
Irene McCollom	Well, most of them worked on campus, taught at State, and they were the more affluent and the more educated people in [indistinct 00:11:42].	11:33
James Earl McCollom	And of course, they would get their kids registered on time. So that's basically how that worked.	11:42
Charles Houston	Well, now at Claflin, since it was originally founded as a church school to educate freedmen, were there students at Claflin from rural areas, where at Felton they were mostly urban kids, would you—	11:48
James Earl McCollom	Yes, basically they were. In fact, I don't remember any—Well, not many rural kids at Felton at all.	12:03
Charles Houston	Okay. But were there more rural kids at Claflin, would you say?	12:13
James Earl McCollom	More than—	12:18
Charles Houston	More than at, say, at Felton?	12:18
James Earl McCollom	Well, yeah. Yeah. You would find more.	12:21
Charles Houston	Okay. I'm wondering whether the difference in prestige was based on maybe ultimately on the difference in missions of the schools. The mission of Claflin having been originally to educate freedman, I guess for the ministry.	12:26
James Earl McCollom	Well, I'm not really sure about that.	12:50
Charles Houston	When you lived here, what community did you live in? What neighborhood?	12:50
James Earl McCollom	Well, we basically lived in within the city, and we did move several times. We also stayed out of the city on two different occasions. I guess we must have occupied at least four different residence, well, maybe five while staying in Orangeburg. That includes the going to Bamberg and coming back.	12:55
Charles Houston	Which church did your father pastor?	13:30
James Earl McCollom	He had churches in the county. I couldn't really give you the names of them right now.	13:33
Charles Houston	But he didn't pastor church here in Orangeburg?	13:40
James Earl McCollom	He didn't pastor at Trinity, no.	13:42
Irene McCollom	I thought you said he took somebody's place.	13:43
James Earl McCollom	Well, for a six week period or something like that, when somebody's died or got sick, he did substitute for about six or eight weeks down there once, but other than that, as far as being assigned there, he wasn't actually assigned to Trinity.	13:48
Charles Houston	Okay. So he had parishes that he traveled to?	14:02
James Earl McCollom	Yes, he had three or four different churches in the county. He would go to about one every other Sunday or one every three or four Sundays.	14:04
Charles Houston	So he was away quite a bit, I guess?	14:14
James Earl McCollom	No, most of these churches were in commuting distance.	14:16
Charles Houston	So he'd just [indistinct 00:14:22].	14:22
James Earl McCollom	Yeah, he wasn't away too much.	14:22
Charles Houston	I don't know this, but I mean, did he do any other kind of work during the week, or—	14:27
James Earl McCollom	No. No, he did not.	14:31
Charles Houston	What were the relations like between Blacks and Whites in this area when you were growing up? And I mean, Orangeburg—I suppose Orangeburg and Bamberg would've been very different, so maybe—	14:38
James Earl McCollom	Well, not really. Even with the colleges here, Orangeburg wasn't that much different from Bamberg. But the segregation part of it was maintained in both cities, of course.	14:55
Charles Houston	What were the signs of segregation?	15:10
James Earl McCollom	Oh, well, you had your faucets for White only and restrooms for White only. You'd go to the movies, you had to sit in certain places, certain—	15:12
Irene McCollom	The balcony.	15:27
James Earl McCollom	In the balcony. Certain places you couldn't go. So all the restrictions were basically here.	15:28
Charles Houston	Okay. Now, in terms of residential patterns, did Whites live—Was segregation by neighborhood or was it by street? Or did people live sort of wherever?	15:34
James Earl McCollom	By neighborhood.	15:51
Charles Houston	Okay. So you didn't find a White Street in the middle of a Black neighborhood?	15:53
James Earl McCollom	No. Not too much, I wouldn't say.	15:57
Charles Houston	Was it the same in Bamberg?	15:59
James Earl McCollom	Bamberg was a little different, because it was kind of a little industrial town, and you would see some of those small houses, those cotton workers close to some Negroes' homes.	16:03
Charles Houston	So Bamberg was more of a cotton mill town?	16:19
James Earl McCollom	Well, industry anyhow. Yes.	16:22
Charles Houston	What other industries?	16:25
James Earl McCollom	Well, let's see. Well, they did just regular crop farms. Corn and beans, watermelons, all of that.	16:26
Charles Houston	Farming.	16:37
James Earl McCollom	Farming, yes, for the most part.	16:38
Charles Houston	But it did have one at least one cotton mill?	16:42
James Earl McCollom	Yes. I used to work there. I worked at the old cotton mill.	16:44
Charles Houston	Yeah. I didn't think many Blacks worked at cotton mills. You must have been one of the very few.	16:53
James Earl McCollom	Well, I worked there. Actually get in the wagons and use that big round thing that stuck the cotton up into the gin.	17:00
Charles Houston	So in Bamberg, you would find, say in the mill neighborhoods, you'd find some Blacks who worked at the mill living in the mill neighborhoods, or?	17:18
James Earl McCollom	Well, I'd say we were close by. Not really in the neighborhoods themselves. I just think some of those people got caught up in areas where they couldn't move, and they just stayed there. Some of the White people never thought of that.	17:30
Charles Houston	So you found some poor Whites and poor Blacks in the neighborhood.	17:43
James Earl McCollom	That's correct.	17:46
Charles Houston	How were the schools? And I guess you went to private school here, but when you went to Bamberg, you went to a county supported.	18:11
James Earl McCollom	County supported school. It was just built, though. The school was in very good shape, except that we didn't have indoor toiletry. We had out outdoor toilets. But the school had not been built very long. I don't know exactly what year it was built in, but it was relatively new, just the main structure.	18:20
Charles Houston	And you then graduated in 1943 and started college, you said, at Voorhees Junior College.	18:52
James Earl McCollom	I started at Voorhees, yes, and then came back to State College my last two years, on an athletic scholarship.	18:59
Charles Houston	So I guess you had a military deferment, I mean, an educational deferment?	19:08
James Earl McCollom	No, I went straight into the army.	19:12
Charles Houston	After college, you mean.	19:16
James Earl McCollom	After college. In fact, I guess we can call it lucky. We were lucky enough we were drafted. I'm saying we, there's about five of us. Wasn't many other people left that state at the time, and when we got drafted, we had to report in latter part of April. And we hadn't finished our coursework as such. So I think even after I left, my mother wrote me and told me that the five of us who left late were voted on by our teachers to be awarded our diplomas in our absence.	19:18
Charles Houston	So what year were you drafted?	20:00
James Earl McCollom	'43.	20:06
Charles Houston	Okay. So in other words, you went to Voorhees, but you started Voorhees in '43.	20:08
James Earl McCollom	No, no. I finished Voorhees in '41. I finished South Carolina State in '43.	20:13
Charles Houston	Okay. I'm sorry. Got you backwards.	20:19
James Earl McCollom	That's all right. I finished State in '43.	20:21
Charles Houston	Okay. And then you were drafted immediately.	20:23
James Earl McCollom	Yeah, immediately. That's what I'm saying. In fact, we had to withdraw from school. Okay. But we were lucky enough, I guess you call it lucky, where they went on and we got our degrees in hand. Diplomas.	20:27
Charles Houston	What was it like being at South Carolina State? You were there in 19—You went '41-'42, '42-'43. So you were there the first two years of the war.	20:40
James Earl McCollom	Well, I almost grew up on South Carolina State's campus, so it felt just like home to me. Most of my friends lived on State's campus. We went from little guys all the way up. So it wasn't any difference at all.	20:49
Charles Houston	Now, had most of the college students there attended the high school, Felton? Many, I mean a large number of them?	21:08
James Earl McCollom	Well, yes. Those who wanted to, went to Felton. That's correct. In fact—	21:16
Irene McCollom	[indistinct 00:21:22] Were from Lawrenceburg.	21:22
James Earl McCollom	Yeah.	21:23
Charles Houston	Right. Okay. But a good percentage of the student body was from elsewhere in the state?	21:23
Irene McCollom	Yes. At South Carolina State, yes.	21:29
James Earl McCollom	Oh, yes. You're talking about the college, now?	21:32
Charles Houston	Yes. I'm talking about the [indistinct 00:21:37].	21:34
James Earl McCollom	Yeah. Oh, yes, of course.	21:37
Charles Houston	—Last two years there.	21:37
James Earl McCollom	Oh yes, it was all over. Sure.	21:37
Charles Houston	Maybe you could tell me about going into the military in 1943.	21:52
James Earl McCollom	Well, I guess that was just routine. We knew that we would probably get drafted sometimes. And when we got those orders, "I want you." We just followed through and reported where we supposed to report.	21:57
Charles Houston	And you were drafted into the Army and served in what kind of unit?	22:13
James Earl McCollom	I was in field artillery at the beginning. That was during basic, that was our training out in Texas. But as soon as we got overseas, we were switched into a transportation outfit.	22:18
Charles Houston	It's often said that World War II had a significant impact on African Americans in terms of their outlook on the social situation in the US. Were there any incidents during your time in the military where you perhaps faced problems that—	22:46
James Earl McCollom	Well, not really. We only had one big, big problem in my outfit the whole while I was in there. That was on a trip from North Africa to Italy. We weren't able to use the restroom facilities on the ship. And it caused quite a problem, as you can imagine.	23:10
Charles Houston	You mean you weren't allowed to use any of the heads on the—	23:42
James Earl McCollom	Not a one. Over the side, you had to go. In fact, they built some planks. Now, this, I wish we could have gotten pictures of. I don't think anybody, I never saw any. They built some planks extending over the railing, and you're expected to walk out there and do whatever you had to do. You got could hold on, of course, but only the thing between you and the water was you and the water. That's all.	23:44
Charles Houston	And the officers—	24:14
James Earl McCollom	They couldn't do a thing. We had some pretty good officers. They tried their best to get it corrected. But those people in that Navy, whoever's in charge would not budge.	24:16
Charles Houston	Now, did you have Black officers in your unit?	24:27
James Earl McCollom	At that point, I didn't. Later on before coming back, we did.	24:30
Charles Houston	I mean, know it was a big army and it was a huge war. But my uncle was an officer in a transportation division.	24:36
James Earl McCollom	Well, when they started tearing up the 92nd division, we got some of those Black officers right before they had a chance to get back home. So we did have some.	24:43
Charles Houston	And how long were you in the service in 1943?	24:58
James Earl McCollom	Just for three years.	25:00
Charles Houston	1943 to 1946.	25:01
James Earl McCollom	Yep.	25:04
Charles Houston	And so the worst discrimination you encountered in the Army was aboard that Navy ship? Otherwise [indistinct 00:25:12].	25:06
James Earl McCollom	That's correct. Otherwise, we knew what to expect as being a Black soldier. So I guess sometimes we just stayed out of certain things.	25:12
Charles Houston	What kinds of things did you avoid then? What was the evidence of Jim Crow in the military?	25:23
James Earl McCollom	Well, going downtown [indistinct 00:25:33], North Africa, we didn't have a USO. Well, in fact, there was one, but we couldn't go in it. And the same thing was true in Italy.	25:29
Charles Houston	You said Oran, O-R-A-N, North Africa?	25:45
James Earl McCollom	Oran, Mm-hmm.	25:54
Charles Houston	Other signs of Jim Crow? Any kind of separate social events? I mean, if there were dances, would there be separate dances for Blacks and White?	25:59
James Earl McCollom	Oh, of course. Yes, yes, yes. We didn't fraternize at all. None at all.	26:07
Charles Houston	What happened after you were discharged in 1946? What happened?	26:40
James Earl McCollom	Well, in '46, well, I came back and was thinking about getting back in school. I knew I had to pick up a few more courses, which I finally needed. But I took some odd jobs, not in the teaching profession. Worked with the brick layer and some construction work for a while. I tried my luck in New England for a while, picking up some jobs up there, hopefully to try to save a little money to get back in school.	26:44
Charles Houston	You had, by this time, a BA degree.	27:33
James Earl McCollom	BS or whatever, yeah.	27:36
Charles Houston	BS in what subject?	27:37
James Earl McCollom	Well, what's that?	27:41
Irene McCollom	Physical education.	27:45
James Earl McCollom	Is education. That's what's on the diploma. Yeah.	27:46
Charles Houston	And you wanted to go back to school for a Master's?	27:49
James Earl McCollom	Working toward my Master's, yes.	27:54
Charles Houston	And the jobs you took in New England were the same kind of thing, just sort of—	27:56
James Earl McCollom	Well, one job was a very good job in a rolling mill that produced brass. So I actually stayed there about two and a half years or two years or so before coming back home.	28:00
Charles Houston	Okay. Were the opportunities in New England better for you then? I mean, the economy by and large was strong, was it not, after the war?	28:22
James Earl McCollom	Yes, definitely. At least I could find a job.	28:28
Charles Houston	Okay. But why did you go to New England?	28:37
James Earl McCollom	Well, I was wondering, my brother was—Had a brother there, and he knew that the job opportunities would be much better than I would have here.	28:41
Charles Houston	Okay, better in what sense?	28:50
James Earl McCollom	Well, there were jobs available. There weren't too many jobs available in Orangeburg. I signed up for that, what do they call that? 52-20 thing that the Army gave you if you were not working, and you had to look for a job, otherwise you wouldn't get paid. So I had to look for a job and I just couldn't find anything.	28:54
Irene McCollom	Didn't you play semiprofessional ball?	29:17
James Earl McCollom	Yes. In Connecticut.	29:26
Charles Houston	So you looked, that was Connecticut, that you were where you worked for the brass rolling mill?	29:28
James Earl McCollom	That's correct.	29:32
Charles Houston	Okay. And you played semi-professional baseball there?	29:33
James Earl McCollom	Football.	29:35
Charles Houston	And could you describe that, too? I mean, the playing.	29:47
James Earl McCollom	Oh, well, at first it started off being a kind of a recreational type thing. These guys had an organization they call the [indistinct 00:30:01] gyms, and they bought recreation equipment for the parks in town, taking care of the kids and building tennis courts and things. And they sponsored a semi-professional football team. And I went over to see them play one night, and I got interested in it and went back the next week and checked with the coach and asked him if I could come out for his team. And he welcomed me with open arms.	29:52
Irene McCollom	Were you the only Black on the team?	30:30
James Earl McCollom	The only one.	30:30
Charles Houston	Oh, is that right? So this was not something that was connected with work?	30:36
James Earl McCollom	Well, not at the time. At first, I didn't get any compensation, but later on when they saw how I was drawing the fans into the stands, they had to give me a little something under the table.	30:39
Charles Houston	But the organization was not work affiliated, it was just something that you just happened to see.	30:52
James Earl McCollom	That's correct.	30:58
Charles Houston	Now, you were living, I guess, with your brother at this time?	30:59
James Earl McCollom	Yes.	31:02
Charles Houston	And what was the team called?	31:04
James Earl McCollom	The Southington Gems.	31:05
Charles Houston	S-U-T-H-I—	31:08
James Earl McCollom	S-O-U-T-H-I-N-G-T-O-N.	31:10
Charles Houston	Gyms. And I guess that's G-Y-M-S?	31:15
James Earl McCollom	G-E-M-S.	31:18
Charles Houston	Oh, sorry.	31:19
James Earl McCollom	Just like Gems.	31:19
Charles Houston	Just like the jewels.	31:19
James Earl McCollom	Yep. Just like the jewels.	31:19
Charles Houston	I should have guessed. Sorry. And they also built gyms or—	31:26
James Earl McCollom	Well, not gyms, but they would put in equipment and things of that nature. They sponsored certain projects during the year to try to make a little money so that they could help the community in that respect.	31:31
Charles Houston	And you played football in college?	31:43
James Earl McCollom	Oh yes.	31:44
Irene McCollom	He got a football scholarship to State.	31:45
James Earl McCollom	State and to Voorhees.	31:47
Irene McCollom	In fact, all your other sisters and brothers went to Claflin, and he's the only one that went to State.	31:54
Charles Houston	Who went to State.	31:58
Irene McCollom	Because of the scholarship.	31:58
Charles Houston	Football scholarship.	31:58
James Earl McCollom	Yeah.	31:58
Charles Houston	So was this your working for the Southington Gems, playing for them, was that your first kind of encounter in an integrated activity?	32:07
James Earl McCollom	I would think, yes. Yes, it was.	32:20
Charles Houston	And you were there for two years, and so you came back here around 1948?	32:28
James Earl McCollom	No, I was there a little longer than that.	32:33
Charles Houston	'49?	32:33
James Earl McCollom	Yeah, I think I came back in '49.	32:33
Charles Houston	Did there seem to be a big difference to you between living in New England versus living in South Carolina? I mean, in terms of social relations, in terms of the outlook of—	32:44
James Earl McCollom	Well, yes. Definite was. You didn't have to worry about walking into a bar or walking into a dance hall or walking into a theater in Connecticut.	32:58
Charles Houston	So you didn't see any evidence of Jim Crow in Connecticut?	33:14
James Earl McCollom	I saw some. Yes, I definitely did.	33:18
Charles Houston	So what evidence do you remember?	33:21
James Earl McCollom	Well, basically what I remember, they had a very small place that—Excuse me. Where they used to sponsor boxing matches. And I could just feel like they just weren't too particular about my being in there, so I didn't go that often.	33:25
Charles Houston	Just, okay. But they just made you feel unwelcome?	33:48
James Earl McCollom	That's correct.	33:50
Charles Houston	Okay. So you came back in 1949 to South Carolina, and what did you do there?	34:07
James Earl McCollom	Well, I kind of looked around, again, looking for a job, played a little semi-professional baseball. And then I got lucky enough to—They offered a coaching job up at the local high school. Well, in fact, I was doing some voluntary work with them at the time, so I was on the scene. I was just lucky to be there at the time.	34:10
Charles Houston	And what team did you play for when you played semi-professional baseball?	34:46
James Earl McCollom	The Orangeburg Tigers. It's an all Black team.	34:50
Charles Houston	Did it travel around rhe region?	35:00
James Earl McCollom	Oh, yes, yes, we did. Florida, North Carolina, Georgia, and South Carolina.	35:02
Charles Houston	And you got a job coaching football?	35:16
James Earl McCollom	Yes. And teaching at Wilkinson High School. And 30 years later, well, that's where I finished my career.	35:22
Charles Houston	Okay. So you were there from—What year?	35:44
James Earl McCollom	Well, actually '50 to '80. Exactly.	35:48
Charles Houston	Wilkinson High School at that time was over here on Goth, wasn't it?	36:02
James Earl McCollom	That's right. On Goth.	36:05
Charles Houston	And it had a close relationship with Claflin, as I understand it.	36:11
James Earl McCollom	Well, yes. I guess mainly because we rented one of Claflin's older, I guess that thing used to be a dormitory, so that's where the band room set up down there in that Old Soul's home. So I guess we did have a pretty close relationship with them. Well, actually, our relationship with both schools was real good, because we didn't have a gymnasium.	36:17
Irene McCollom	Didn't have a football field.	36:45
James Earl McCollom	Didn't have a football field. State College and Claflin offered us the use of their gym and the football areas and things. So we had a good relationship.	36:46
Charles Houston	And you taught physical education at Wilkinson?	36:56
James Earl McCollom	Physical education. Right.	37:01
Charles Houston	You were there then. You were, I guess, coming back to South Carolina at a time when the NAACP was becoming very active? I mean, in the 1940s there were a lot of changes here.	37:03
James Earl McCollom	That's correct. Exactly.	37:16
Charles Houston	And if I'm not mistaken, the pastors at Trinity, I'm not sure when Newman stopped being pastor at Trinity, but had been very active in the NAACP.	37:21
James Earl McCollom	Well, they were very active, yes, and my brother came in right behind him.	37:37
Charles Houston	Okay. Could you talk a bit about—	37:42
James Earl McCollom	Oh boy.	37:48
Charles Houston	I mean, just about the things that were going on with the NAACP, and maybe—	37:51
Irene McCollom	Well, you might tell them about the time—We got married in 1956, and I was teaching here at the time. I came to Orangeburg in '54. And at that time, when women got pregnant and on maternity, you lost your job. So our child was born in October, and I didn't have a job, and I could not be hired because my name was McCollom, and they would not hire me. They didn't—	38:01
Charles Houston	Oh, because—	38:32
James Earl McCollom	Because of my brother, because of his affiliation with the NAACP.	38:33
Irene McCollom	Because of the relationship of Reverend McCollom. And Reverend McCollom's wife lost her job also teaching.	38:39
Charles Houston	Now, that was even before they passed a law making it—There was a law, I thought maybe it was passed actually earlier than I thought. And I thought it was passed in '57, making it illegal for a state employee—Making a state employee subject to automatic dismissal for belonging to the NAACP.	38:44
James Earl McCollom	To become a member. Yeah, they tried that. Yeah.	39:07
Irene McCollom	That was before, because a lot of Blacks lost their jobs because of their affiliation with the NAACP.	39:11
James Earl McCollom	Because they signed saying they weren't a member of the NAACP.	39:18
Charles Houston	So there was no problem, because you were both teachers?	39:27
James Earl McCollom	Well, there were problems. I had to kind of walk pretty easy, because that's one thing Mack told me when—My brother, we called him Mack. That I just might get it just like his wife did, in case I didn't kind of walk easy. So there were certain people that they would ask to don't get too far out the front in this thing. So I didn't do a whole lot of—	39:31
Irene McCollom	Actually, there were people who worked behind the lines, and people on the lines.	40:03
James Earl McCollom	Well, correct. That's right. That's basically what it was. So	40:05
Irene McCollom	So Reverend McCollom was out there on the line and we were kind of behind the line giving him all the support we could.	40:09
James Earl McCollom	Correct.	40:14
Charles Houston	But you were vulnerable?	40:15
Irene McCollom	We were very vulnerable.	40:16
James Earl McCollom	Very vulnerable.	40:16
Irene McCollom	Because it took how many years for me to get—And the only way I got back in the system was a very good friend of the family was a principal at one of the elementary schools, and he hired me as his secretary when his secretary was out on maternity leave. And he promised to work me back into the system, and that's how I got back into the system.	40:19
Charles Houston	What year was that?	40:41
Irene McCollom	Oh goodness, that was 1960, I believe about, because my baby was about two years old at that time. She was born in '58.	40:42
Charles Houston	And this was at Wilkinson?	40:54
Irene McCollom	No, I taught at Wilkinson when I started teaching I taught high school, but then I went back and changed my major.	40:55
James Earl McCollom	In the district, in one of the elementary schools.	41:03
Irene McCollom	And then I went into the elementary area when he told me that if—I needed nine hours to be certified in elementary ed. So he advised me to go to school and get those nine hours, and then when he got an opening in his school, he would put me into his school to get me back in the system. So we had to do it underhanded to get me back in the system working. So when I went back to work, I went back as an elementary school teacher.	41:04
Charles Houston	Okay. And what school was that?	41:35
Irene McCollom	That was at Whitaker Elementary School.	41:37
Charles Houston	So what year did your brother become the director of the Orangeburg NAACP?	41:47
James Earl McCollom	The NAACP? I'm not really sure. I couldn't tell you.	41:53
Charles Houston	Was that before you came back, though?	41:58
James Earl McCollom	No, I think Newman was still the director then. In fact, I'm sure he was. Mack must have come the director in about '52 or '53, somewhere in that area, I'm not sure.	42:00
Charles Houston	And what was his full name?	42:13
James Earl McCollom	Matthew.	42:25
Charles Houston	Did he use his middle initial?	42:29
Irene McCollom	D.	42:31
Charles Houston	D? so he was there during the beginning of this protracted struggle to desegregate the schools and protracted struggles—	42:32
James Earl McCollom	That's correct.	42:51
Charles Houston	He was in the forefront.	42:51
James Earl McCollom	He was in the forefront.	42:51
Charles Houston	Were you involved, or can you describe the way in which the petition drive emerged? Can you talk about that a bit? I'm interested to know whether this was a spontaneous effort that emerged kind of from the grassroots [indistinct 00:43:26].	42:57
James Earl McCollom	Well, no, I guess once the students got behind it, things just blossomed from there.	43:26
Irene McCollom	And largely in the Black churches here. It was led mostly by the Black ministers. Along with other members of the NAACP, but the Black ministers sort of put into their congregations and the congregations band together, because we used to meet in the Black churches for the mass meetings, is what they were called. Mass meetings. And the Black ministers were the ones who were out front, and they were the ones who were [indistinct 00:44:08].	43:39
James Earl McCollom	First started going to jail and everything.	44:08
Irene McCollom	They jailed them and other people too. But I give a lot of credit to the many of the Black ministers who were pastoring churches here at the time.	44:10
Charles Houston	Well, I mean now, back early on, when you talk about mass meetings and people going to jail, I assume you're thinking of the '60s, but I'm not sure.	44:24
Irene McCollom	Yeah. It was in the '60s, yes.	44:36
Charles Houston	Okay. I'm thinking back more toward the beginning, say-	44:38
Irene McCollom	At the beginning.	44:41
Charles Houston	Because my understanding of what happened is that, and this is really what I wanted to try to explore a little bit, is that in 1955, in the wake of the Brown decision, the second Brown decision, that there emerged here a petition drive to desegregate the schools. And somebody passed around a petition, and that it was signed largely by business people here, people who weren't so vulnerable. And that the White community's response to that was to form a citizen's council.	44:42
James Earl McCollom	Citizens council. That's correct.	45:15
Charles Houston	And the Citizen's Council then sought to take out reprisals against those Black business people who were participating.	45:16
James Earl McCollom	Right. That's correct.	45:21
Charles Houston	And that ultimately led to—	45:23
Irene McCollom	Boycotting.	45:26
Charles Houston	To boycotting, and then the student protests, the students saying, "Look," to the colleges. "You got to boycott Sunbeam bread, and you got to boycott Coca-Cola and you got to boycott [indistinct 00:45:37] company." And then Turner was the president of State, and the faculty was on the side of the students, so then there was a dichotomy, a struggle between the administration and the students. And I'm wondering—And then this polarized the community and this struggle went on, I understand intermittently until the bowling alley incident and the massacre in '68.	45:27
James Earl McCollom	Students getting killed.	46:03
Irene McCollom	And mention the bowling alley, this is an aside, but at the bowling alley incident, they had just started doing what they called integration in the schools. They sent one Black teacher to each of the White elementary schools, and I was sent over to—And the man's son that ran the bowling alley was in my class. See, I was teaching sixth grade, and he was—	46:08

Irene McCollom	Yes, I was teaching at an all White—	0:01
Charles Houston	Oh, you were the—	0:01
Irene McCollom	—school. I was the Black teacher.	0:03
Charles Houston	And went to a—	0:04
James Earl McCollom	That went to a White school. Right.	0:05
Irene McCollom	Went to a White school.	0:05
Charles Houston	Okay.	0:05
Irene McCollom	So there were no Black, there might've been one Black student in the whole school and one Black teacher.	0:09
Charles Houston	And that was integration?	0:13
Irene McCollom	That's what they called integration—	0:13
Charles Houston	Integration.	0:14
Irene McCollom	At that first attempt to try to, after the law and after all of this to try to integrate. Now, there were no White teachers sent to the Black schools, but I was the first Black teacher along with another teacher went to another school and another teacher, only three schools they sent us to, and went to a White school to teach.	0:19
Charles Houston	Okay. Could you describe for me the bowling alley incident? I don't really know that much about it, could you—	0:45
James Earl McCollom	Well, actually—	0:52
Irene McCollom	The man that ran the bowling alley, and he—	0:56
James Earl McCollom	He just—	0:59
Irene McCollom	He was a poor White man.	1:01
James Earl McCollom	—refused to let him in.	1:02
Irene McCollom	And if you could have seen the place, in fact, they lived, they turned it into a barbershop up there on St. Matthews Road. The school where I taught was at Marshall, right off the St. Matthews Road up there. And that was in a middle class White neighborhood. But he was one of the poorest ones. He just happened to be managing the bowling alley. I don't think he owned it. I think he must have managed it.	1:05
Irene McCollom	And the soccer, at that time, the students at the college, they were boycotting, but yet they were asserting their whatever to try out these places. Now, they knew that this bowling alley was segregated, but I don't know how they did. I guess they met and decided which one of these places we going to try to integrate next. You know, like going to the lunch counters and all that. So they went to the bowling alley. And they were turned away. And I don't know how many times they went down there before all of this uprising started and all of the shooting and all. But he would not let them in.	1:27
Charles Houston	So who was it—	2:12
Irene McCollom	But they knew that they weren't going to get in, but they—	2:13
James Earl McCollom	They had to challenge it.	2:15
Irene McCollom	They had to challenge it.	2:18
Charles Houston	Right. But this was a nonviolent, I mean, they just went there as a group.	2:19
Irene McCollom	Yeah. They went there as a group. It was nonviolent. Nonviolent. All of the protesting, all of the marching that went on in Orangeburg was nonviolent.	2:21
Charles Houston	But then the National Guard was called out by whom now? In response to their demonstrating in the bowling alley?	2:30
James Earl McCollom	Yes. Because they were going down in forest that night. I understand.	2:37
Irene McCollom	So they would go single. They went down the lodge.	2:41
James Earl McCollom	So they wanted to stop them and keep them on campus.	2:43
Irene McCollom	They wanted to keep them on campus.	2:47
James Earl McCollom	So that's when they sent the tanks and things in.	2:50
Charles Houston	Okay.	2:50
Irene McCollom	See the bowling alley's in walking distance of the camp. The camp was a couple blocks.	2:55
Charles Houston	Right.	2:58
Irene McCollom	But they went down in large groups and then they tried to contain them on the campus. To keep them on campus.	2:59
Charles Houston	And it was that confrontation that [indistinct 00:03:09].	3:08
Irene McCollom	Yeah, it was that confrontation. Yeah.	3:08
Charles Houston	Okay. I'm very interested in your citing the ministers as the leaders.	3:13
James Earl McCollom	Oh, they were at the focal point.	3:20
Charles Houston	So would your brother then, as head of the Orangeburg chapter of the NAACP, have worked through the ministers in order—I mean, did the petition drive come from the NAACP and was it an NAACP initiative that—	3:23
Irene McCollom	I really cannot answer that.	3:45
Charles Houston	Okay.	3:45
Irene McCollom	I don't know whose initiative it was. Whether it was the—	3:45
James Earl McCollom	I'm pretty sure it was though that—	3:45
Irene McCollom	These ministers belonged to the NAACP.	3:53
Charles Houston	Okay.	3:54
James Earl McCollom	Right.	3:55
Irene McCollom	So they were a part of the NAACP.	3:57
James Earl McCollom	And that group, the few meetings that they had with the powers to be downtown, that's the group that met with the guys downtown.	4:00
Charles Houston	Okay.	4:11
James Earl McCollom	Trying to get something resolved.	4:11
Charles Houston	Okay.	4:11
James Earl McCollom	So they met with the citizen council.	4:12
Charles Houston	Is it possible to describe in any way how things had changed after the war? I mean, for people in South Carolina, in the Orangeburg area where you were, I mean is there—I don't even know if I can ask this, so that you'd understand it, but are there any examples you can think of that would illustrate how the attitude of Black people had changed? I mean, certainly by 1955, the petition drive is a clear sign that Blacks were no longer content with the status quo. The things that were happening in the NAACP initiatives that were happening down in Clarendon County with the teacher equalization lawsuit with the struggle against the primary are indications of a changing attitude. Are there any other kinds of examples of change that you can think of that occurred in this area and the years after the war into the '50s.	4:28
James Earl McCollom	Well—	5:48
Irene McCollom	[indistinct 00:05:49] wasn't here at that time.	5:49
Charles Houston	Okay.	5:49
James Earl McCollom	In the '50s you say?	5:49
Charles Houston	Well, yeah. Anytime after, you know.	5:52
James Earl McCollom	Well, in my era, you could pretty well get a feeling of it. And I did a lot of officiating athletic events, and all of a sudden we started finding out that even though we were work in the same games that these White guys are working, they're getting about 30 or 40 bucks more than we were a game, that's just an example. So we started pressing that issue for an example. They're trying to get the Black principals to give us more money even before we reintegrated, so you could almost feel it in any endeavor.	5:57
Charles Houston	So this was in the early '50s while you were coaching, or—	6:57
James Earl McCollom	Yes—	7:00
Charles Houston	—in the beginning of your volunteer work.	7:00
James Earl McCollom	Trying to make a couple extra bucks by officiating basketball and football games.	7:04
Charles Houston	And the Black officials were paid by the Black principals?	7:09
James Earl McCollom	That's correct.	7:12
Charles Houston	And what response did you get when you asked for the same job?	7:13
James Earl McCollom	They were saying they were doing the best they could. Eventually they would try to catch up, but I guess I was just asking too much. And then we finally merged with the other group, and that kind of leveled things off there.	7:18
Charles Houston	When did that merger take place?	7:36
James Earl McCollom	Oh boy. What year did I quit, honey? That's the year it started.	7:39
Irene McCollom	Oh, that was much later than 1960. That was—	7:43
James Earl McCollom	Yeah, yeah, that was—Yeah.	7:43
Charles Houston	Okay, so you merged sometime in this probably later.	7:43
James Earl McCollom	Latter. Yeah, late '60s. Yeah.	7:43
Charles Houston	I understand that there was a kind of a thriving Black business community here down around the railroad corners area. I mean there were lots of Black businesses in there and that there were particularly up until the '50s, lots of Black artisans, bricklayers, carpenters, painters, that kind of thing. That there was an unusually large number of them because of—	8:09
James Earl McCollom	Correct.	8:42
Charles Houston	The college is providing the kinds of artisanal training that they. Did that begin to change in the 1950s? I mean, I don't know that I've asked anybody this, but it seems to me that sometime after the '50s that began to change and that the prevalence of Black plasterers and masons and so on—	8:42
James Earl McCollom	Well, I observed one that you didn't see as many of them becoming masons and bricklayers and things. You knew the older guys who were standard masonries, and very seldom you would see them working with the younger guy who come in behind that. In fact, I think it even started slowing up in some of the schools that they didn't teach as much of it at that point.	9:11
Charles Houston	Any sense of why that might have been?	9:45
James Earl McCollom	I'm not really sure.	9:48
Irene McCollom	I would put into opportunities for Blacks were beginning to emerge in, Blacks could go into different	9:50
Charles Houston	Fields. And so the university started reflecting that by shifting their emphasis?	9:56
Irene McCollom	Yeah.	10:00
Charles Houston	Okay. Okay, now, during this time, you were a member of Trinity?	10:17
James Earl McCollom	Yes.	10:20
Charles Houston	Okay. And was your brother a pastor at Trinity?	10:21
James Earl McCollom	Yes, he was.	10:30
Charles Houston	And he became pastor in the early '50s.	10:30
James Earl McCollom	And he stayed there about 14 or so years, I guess it was.	10:36
Charles Houston	Okay. And I suppose, did he use the pulpit for raising racial consciousness for as a platform for civil rights?	10:38
James Earl McCollom	Yes. He did. Yes.	10:53
Charles Houston	Okay. I don't suppose you can think of any examples?	10:59
James Earl McCollom	Well, not really, but he did everything that—	11:02
Irene McCollom	Well, one thing about Rev McCollom, he was a well-respected man by both Blacks and Whites in this community. He tried to live what he preached, so people trusted him. They respected him. So what he would say and ask people to do, in most instances, they followed him.	11:09
Charles Houston	Okay. So he would ask them to do specific kinds of things and make recommendations to them from the pulpit that called on them to engage in certain civil rights kinds of activities	11:29
Irene McCollom	Indirectly from the pulpit, not directly from the pulpit. He did that in the NAACP—	11:43
James Earl McCollom	Meetings. Right.	11:46
Irene McCollom	Mass meetings that they held at the churches at night and things like that. He did not do that directly from the pulpit on Sunday morning. He usually preached a sermon on Sunday morning. He would tie something in with his sermon [indistinct 00:12:08] and that sort of thing. But he did not use the pulpit solely to get people stirred up about the segregation. They did it kind of indirectly.	11:52
James Earl McCollom	I do remember one incident that I don't know that this is significant or not, but [indistinct 00:12:34] was offered a chaplainship at Duke, and because of his activities here, he turned it down. I remember him talking to my mother about it, should he go or should he stay? So she told me, he'd make up his own mind. He decided not to go, which would've been a pretty good step up the ladder for I imagine.	12:19
Irene McCollom	But he felt his mission here was—	12:54
James Earl McCollom	Right.	12:56
Irene McCollom	Yeah. A mission here.	12:58
Charles Houston	And it wasn't finished.	12:58
Irene McCollom	It wasn't finished.	12:58
James Earl McCollom	Right.	12:59
Charles Houston	Right. And he remained the director of the NAACP here. How long?	13:02
James Earl McCollom	Oh boy.	13:06
Irene McCollom	I don't remember the number.	13:07
James Earl McCollom	I don't either, but it was quite a long time.	13:08
Irene McCollom	It was quite a long time.	13:08
James Earl McCollom	In fact, right now, I'm trying to remember who came in after him. Tell you the truth.	13:16
Irene McCollom	Well, I think when he died, he was still the director when he died in—What year did he die? 1980? 1980.	13:29
Charles Houston	Okay.	13:33
Irene McCollom	Yeah. 1980.	13:33
Charles Houston	So he was director for 30 years, practically?	13:34
James Earl McCollom	I mean, well, a long time. I wouldn't want to put the exact number on it. I could check that, but—	13:38
Charles Houston	Right. Okay. Well, I don't know that I can think of anything else. Is there is anything during this period, say, between your school boy days here in Orangeburg and your first decade of teaching and coaching, is there anything about the experience of being an African American in the city of Orangeburg that we haven't talked about or about your experience in the military we haven't talked about that might be—	13:48
James Earl McCollom	Well, I think we basically covered most of the things that I was involved with.	14:27
Irene McCollom	Well, we were joking the other day. Well, we were laughing a group of us, and we didn't know we were poverty-stricken until we integrated and they told us we were living in poverty. We didn't know that we were—We knew it, but—And we didn't know that we were being deprived until we integrated. We were basically getting along accepting things the way they were until we just got to the point, we not going to take this anymore. But at the beginning, this is what life was when we were born, this is what our parents had lived through and their parents before that, even if we were better off than our parents were. And our kids today still can't understand this because they don't know anything about the struggles we went through. And we were basically, we knew that there were places we couldn't go, so we didn't try to go.	14:32
Irene McCollom	It was just understood that Black folks sat in the balcony at the theater and the White folks sat down on the better seats. You got on the train, and we sat up next to the engines where we got all of the embers and things, and they sat on the better seats. And I'm from Alabama and I went to school in Birmingham, it was just, the rich folks lived on the mountains where the air was clean. And 'cause Birmingham was a mining town at that time, and all of the dust and stuff from the mines and the oil and all sailed down in the city. It was just something that only the poor White folks lived there.	15:29
James Earl McCollom	That's right. [indistinct 00:16:11] don't forget them.	16:09
Irene McCollom	They lived there too. They couldn't do any better either. There were some Blacks who were maybe well off, a little better off than more of us, but there were certain places they couldn't go. That money couldn't get them there, because of color of their skin. I lived in a town where the Gastons lived in Birmingham, Alabama. They were about the richest Black folk I'd ever known. But there were things, places they couldn't go.	16:12
Charles Houston	So it wasn't until things got better for Blacks that you had a real sense of how much you'd been deprived it was that, as things got better—	16:45
Irene McCollom	Yes. Yes.	16:57
Charles Houston	—you gained a new insight into—	16:57
Irene McCollom	My—Even when I went to the White school, the all White school, and I'd been in an all Black school, there were differences. There are differences in the materials, differences in my teaching load and differences in just subtle things. But there were differences.	16:59
Charles Houston	Which would've made, going back to the old teaching load, seeing [indistinct 00:17:25]—	17:20
Irene McCollom	Well, at that time there were no free lunches and that sort of thing. And there no, they had not passed the law that all handicapped kids must be taught. They stayed at home and that sort of thing. And I can remember teaching at Whitaker in the beginning where I have bought lunches for kids and bought material for children because they could not afford it. And I would buy them myself or my principals would say, "You can't have it." But I became a principal later on and I found out some of those things our Black principals didn't ask for.	17:24
James Earl McCollom	That's right.	18:02
Irene McCollom	I also found that out.	18:02
Charles Houston	You mean they were entitled to, but they just never requested it.	18:05
Irene McCollom	I guess they were afraid or didn't know that they could. I was the kind of person, you're going have to tell me no.	18:08
Charles Houston	Right.	18:14
Irene McCollom	So I'm going to ask for it and that question why I can't get it. But when I went to, transferred to the Black school that, before I retired, it's right up here in Nixon, all Black neighborhood and all of this. And all the principals had been there. They didn't even have file cabinets for students records. And all you had to do is requisition them. And the mat at the front door was so toned and tattered and full of dirt. The first day I went up there, I had the chance to throw that out. And he said, "How you get them new mats?" I said, "I asked for them."	18:15
James Earl McCollom	You asked for it.	18:57
Irene McCollom	[indistinct 00:19:03] little things like that.	18:57
Charles Houston	Right. Yeah. Well, I'd like to keep the recorder running while I ask you questions, because sometimes things come up in the course of answering those questions. Your last name is M-C capital C-U-L-L-O-N, no.	19:09
James Earl McCollom	Put the O, O, O.	19:28
Charles Houston	O-L-O-M.	19:29
Charles Houston	M-C-C	19:29
James Earl McCollom	C-O-L-L-O-M.	19:31
Irene McCollom	M's. Two Cs. Two Os. And two Ls.	19:34
Charles Houston	Okay.	19:34
James Earl McCollom	And people insist, of course of wanting to put at least one U in it.	19:39
Charles Houston	Okay. Sorry for that—	19:44
James Earl McCollom	No, but you, at least you asked. These people—You write it like it's supposed to be, they look at you like you crazy. They'll change it.	19:45
Irene McCollom	I'm on a board in Columbia State Board for [indistinct 00:19:57] and control. And the first meeting, they had these name cards and they had my name spelled on, I called the girl over and said, "You have my name spelled wrong next time we meet." So she said, "Oh, I didn't do that. This lady over here did it. This White lady. So she called, she said, "You sure you spelled it right? I said, well, don't you think [indistinct 00:20:18]—	19:53
James Earl McCollom	[indistinct 00:20:18] name after all these years.	20:17
Irene McCollom	She going to tell me how to spell my name.	20:17
Charles Houston	And that's real [indistinct 00:20:29] for you.	20:17
Irene McCollom	She didn't want to admit she was wrong.	20:31
Charles Houston	And your first and middle names were James Lee.	20:38
Irene McCollom	James Earl.	20:42
James Earl McCollom	James E.	20:42
Irene McCollom	James Earl.	20:42
James Earl McCollom	Earl.	20:42
Charles Houston	Earl. Sorry. And what's the address here, please?	20:44
Irene McCollom	246 Oak Ridge Drive.	20:53
Charles Houston	That's Orangeburg?	21:02
Irene McCollom	Yes.	21:03
Charles Houston	And the zip code.	21:06
Irene McCollom	29115.	21:08
Charles Houston	And let's see—	21:13
Charles Houston	You told me you were born in Kingstree, Williamsburg County?	21:13
James Earl McCollom	Yeah.	21:31
Charles Houston	Okay. And your birthdate is 03/07/23. And your principal occupation is retired educator, coach?	21:44
James Earl McCollom	That's correct.	21:58
Charles Houston	And Mrs McCollom, what's your first name, please?	22:22
Irene McCollom	Irene.	22:36
Charles Houston	Irene, okay.	22:54
Charles Houston	Today is the 5th of August, right?	22:54
Charles Houston	And the telephone number, please?	22:54
James Earl McCollom	534-4085.	22:58
Charles Houston	And how would you like your name in the official record? Is James E. McCollom?	23:02
James Earl McCollom	James E.	23:08
Charles Houston	And do you use a middle name?	23:09
Irene McCollom	W.	23:11
Charles Houston	Okay. And what's your date of birth, please?	23:56
Irene McCollom	10/08/33.	24:01
Charles Houston	And where were you born?	24:06
Irene McCollom	Alexander City, Alabama.	24:08
Charles Houston	And what county is that?	24:19
Irene McCollom	Tallapoosa. T-A-L-L-A-P-O-O-S-A.	24:23
Charles Houston	Okay. Just like it sounds. And you are a retired elementary school teacher?	24:27
Irene McCollom	Principal.	24:35
James Earl McCollom	Principal.	24:35
Charles Houston	Principal.	24:50
Charles Houston	Okay. Mr. McCollom, what's your mother's first name?	24:50
James Earl McCollom	Annie.	24:55
Charles Houston	Middle name?	24:56
James Earl McCollom	M.	24:57
Irene McCollom	Maude.	24:59
James Earl McCollom	Maude.	24:59
Charles Houston	Maude. And maiden name?	25:02
James Earl McCollom	Elston.	25:04
Charles Houston	E-L-S-T-O-N?	25:05
James Earl McCollom	That's right.	25:05
Charles Houston	And do you know when she was born?	25:05
James Earl McCollom	No. I—	25:05
Charles Houston	Or when she died?	25:06
Irene McCollom	She died in January, 1961.	25:06
James Earl McCollom	1961.	25:06
Charles Houston	And do you know how old she was?	25:14
James Earl McCollom	No. I was talking to my wife last night. I really should know, but I don't.	25:27
Charles Houston	Okay. And where was she born?	25:40
James Earl McCollom	She was born in Alabama. Choccolocco, Alabama.	25:43
Charles Houston	Anniston.	25:47
James Earl McCollom	Full Anniston. That's right.	25:47
Charles Houston	That's the city. A-N-N-I-S-T-O-N?	25:49
James Earl McCollom	A-N-N, two Ns.	25:49
Charles Houston	A-N-N.	25:49
James Earl McCollom	I-S-T-O-N.	25:49
Charles Houston	T-O-N.	25:49
Irene McCollom	Yeah.	25:49
James Earl McCollom	Yeah. Anniston.	25:49
Charles Houston	Which county is that?	25:49
Irene McCollom	I don't know what county that's in.	25:49
Charles Houston	Okay. And what was her occupation?	26:01
James Earl McCollom	She was a housewife.	26:03
Irene McCollom	[indistinct 00:26:08]—	26:03
James Earl McCollom	And seamstress. She did do some sewing.	26:07
Charles Houston	And your father's name?	26:15
James Earl McCollom	Samuel Marion.	26:16
Charles Houston	M-A-R-I-O-N?	26:22
James Earl McCollom	Yep. McCollom. Right.	26:24
Charles Houston	And his date of birth?	26:24
James Earl McCollom	Boy, you got me there.	26:33
Charles Houston	You know when he passed?	26:34
James Earl McCollom	1944, I guess. I was in North Africa at the time.	26:36
Charles Houston	And you don't have—	26:41
James Earl McCollom	I don't remember exactly what month, and I don't remember his age. No.	26:43
Charles Houston	Okay. And where was he—	26:46
James Earl McCollom	He was pretty elderly. Where was he born?	26:50
Charles Houston	Uh-huh.	26:50
Irene McCollom	Didn't you say Pickens County?	26:51
James Earl McCollom	No, they lived up there [indistinct 00:26:59]. Huh?	26:57
Irene McCollom	[indistinct 00:27:01] Bennettsville.	26:58
James Earl McCollom	Yeah, Bennettsville, South Carolina—	26:58
Irene McCollom	Marlboro County.	26:58
James Earl McCollom	Marlboro County. Yeah.	26:58
Charles Houston	Marlboro. So Bennettsville is B-E-N-N-E-T-T-S-V-I-L—	27:08
James Earl McCollom	That's right.	27:12
Charles Houston	Okay. And his occupation was farming?	27:25
James Earl McCollom	No, he was a minister.	27:26
Charles Houston	Oh, I'm sorry. Of course. Of course.	27:49
Charles Houston	See, I know you have a—You're the sixth, seventh child. You're the sixth child, there were seven.	27:49
James Earl McCollom	I'm the seventh of it. Yes.	27:55
Irene McCollom	Sixth of seven.	27:56
James Earl McCollom	Sixth of seven.	27:56
Charles Houston	The sixth of seven.	27:56
James Earl McCollom	That's right.	27:56
Charles Houston	Yes. So I'd like to list now the names of your siblings in birth order.	28:00
James Earl McCollom	Of our siblings?	28:02
Charles Houston	Of your siblings.	28:04
James Earl McCollom	My siblings.	28:05
Charles Houston	Right.	28:05
James Earl McCollom	Okay. Marion.	28:05
Charles Houston	Is that A-N or?	28:05
Irene McCollom	O-N.	28:05
James Earl McCollom	O-N.	28:05
Charles Houston	Okay. And I'll come back and then ask you their birth dates.	28:15
James Earl McCollom	Okay. 'Cause some them I'm not going to know, but go ahead.	28:18
Charles Houston	That's okay. Okay. After Marion.	28:22
James Earl McCollom	All right, there was Matthew.	28:24
Charles Houston	Uh-huh.	28:26
James Earl McCollom	Madelyn.	28:28
Irene McCollom	Mark. Didn't you have Matthew's [indistinct 00:28:32].	28:29
James Earl McCollom	Oh, well, I always forget that. Matthew was a twin, who's twin died at birth.	28:31
Charles Houston	And then Mark was—	28:38
James Earl McCollom	[indistinct 00:28:39], yes.	28:39
Charles Houston	Was the non-surviving twin?	28:39
James Earl McCollom	Yeah, that's right. Correct.	28:42
Charles Houston	Okay.	28:43
Irene McCollom	So that really makes eight.	28:43
Charles Houston	Okay. Okay. And then Madelyn?	28:48
James Earl McCollom	Madelyn.	28:50
Charles Houston	M-A-D-A-L-I-N-E.	28:52
James Earl McCollom	No. M-A-D-E-L-Y-N.	28:52
Charles Houston	M-A-D-E-L-Y-N.	28:56
James Earl McCollom	And then Claude.	28:57
Charles Houston	Uh-huh.	29:00
James Earl McCollom	Ernest, James and Hattie.	29:08
Charles Houston	Okay. Okay, yeah. And we can put James in at 1923.	29:22
James Earl McCollom	Right.	29:25
Charles Houston	But we don't know the other birthdays.	29:25
James Earl McCollom	Yes, I know some of them. Okay.	29:25
Irene McCollom	Marion—	29:25
James Earl McCollom	Marion is—	29:25
Irene McCollom	[indistinct 00:29:26] was 1910.	29:25
James Earl McCollom	November—	29:25
James Earl McCollom	17th.	29:39
Irene McCollom	4th.	29:39
James Earl McCollom	November the 4th, 1910, for Marion.	29:41
Charles Houston	Okay.	29:45
James Earl McCollom	All right. Now let's do, Mac, oh Lord, you got me there.	29:45
Charles Houston	Who's Mac?	29:50
James Earl McCollom	Matthew, I'm sorry. [indistinct 00:29:53] Matthew.	29:52
Charles Houston	Okay.	29:54
James Earl McCollom	But now we used to always sit down and talk about, we were pretty well-born two to three years apart.	29:55
Charles Houston	Right.	30:03
James Earl McCollom	But I would only be guessing if I tried to tell you, you know what Matt's birthday is.	30:03
Charles Houston	Okay, well maybe I'll leave that blank.	30:08
Irene McCollom	Matt was born in November. I do know that. But I think he's about two years younger than Marion.	30:11
James Earl McCollom	That's what I'm thinking. That's what I'm saying.	30:19
Charles Houston	1912.	30:19
James Earl McCollom	Yeah, we can [indistinct 00:30:23]. We wouldn't be far off if—	30:22
Charles Houston	Okay, I'm going put 1912 down.	30:37
Charles Houston	Yeah. What about Hattie? Do you know her?	30:38
James Earl McCollom	Hattie is April the 4th, 1926.	30:38
Charles Houston	And Ernest, just before you.	30:40
James Earl McCollom	Yeah. This is December 17th, 1920. I'll always remember his. He's right next to him.	30:42
Charles Houston	Okay. And I guess—	30:57
James Earl McCollom	Now Claude's in between them, but I couldn't give you the month nor the year.	30:57
Charles Houston	Claude and Madelyn in between Mac and Ernest.	31:01
James Earl McCollom	Right.	31:06
Charles Houston	Okay. And were they all born in the same place?	31:06
James Earl McCollom	No. Goodness.	31:09
Irene McCollom	His daddy was a circuit rider.	31:11
James Earl McCollom	Methodist minister moved [indistinct 00:31:19], if you stay someplace two years, you were doing good.	31:14
Irene McCollom	Was Hattie born in where? Camden?	31:25
James Earl McCollom	Hattie was born in Camden, right.	31:25
Charles Houston	Hattie was born in Camden.	31:28
James Earl McCollom	Yeah.	31:28
Charles Houston	Okay.	31:28
James Earl McCollom	I was born in Kingstree.	31:28
Charles Houston	[indistinct 00:31:36]. Kingstree.	31:36
James Earl McCollom	Yeah. EC was born in Cheraw. Ernest. I'm talking—	31:48
Charles Houston	How do you say that? Cheraw. How do you spell it?	31:48
Irene McCollom	C-H-E—	31:48
Charles Houston	C-H-E—	31:48
Irene McCollom	—R-A-W.	31:48
James Earl McCollom	—R-A-W.	31:48
Irene McCollom	That's Dizzy Gillespie's home.	31:48
James Earl McCollom	Right. Mm-hmm.	31:48
Irene McCollom	Cheraw.	31:52
Charles Houston	South Carolina.	31:53
James Earl McCollom	Let's see, Marion, I think was born in Greenville.	31:56
Charles Houston	Madelyn?	32:01
James Earl McCollom	Marion.	32:01
Charles Houston	Marion. Okay.	32:02
James Earl McCollom	Yeah. And Madelyn [indistinct 00:32:12], well, I'd have to be guessing, but I'm pretty sure it's somewhere up in the Pee Dee area. Marlboro County.	32:04
Charles Houston	Okay. What about Mac?	32:27
James Earl McCollom	Mac would've been up to Peed up there too. Same place, I think. 'Cause I think we stayed longer up there at least they stayed longer up there than we did another one place up until that particular point.	32:31
Charles Houston	Okay. And so Mark would've been born and died in 1912, 'cause that's the year we were guessing that Matthew was born.	32:49
James Earl McCollom	That's correct.	32:57
Charles Houston	And [indistinct 00:32:58] died at childbirth, right?	33:02
James Earl McCollom	Right.	33:02
Charles Houston	Okay. Now the next question, and you were number six?	33:03
James Earl McCollom	Well, if you count—	33:05
Charles Houston	No, no, you were number seven.	33:06
James Earl McCollom	If you count Mark now you have it, I wasn't thinking about it at the time.	33:06
Charles Houston	Okay. Next is your children, their birth names in order of birth.	33:06
James Earl McCollom	All right. Janice.	33:18
Charles Houston	Uh-huh.	33:21
James Earl McCollom	Elaine.	33:21
Charles Houston	Janice. Okay. It's not Janice then Elaine, not Janice Elaine?	33:23
Irene McCollom	No, it's Janice Elaine—	33:25
Charles Houston	Elaine.	33:27
Irene McCollom	He named Janice and then—	33:28
James Earl McCollom	And then Elaine—	33:30
Charles Houston	Then Elaine—	33:30
Irene McCollom	Elaine.	33:30
Charles Houston	Okay.	33:30
James Earl McCollom	Was that October 19?	33:35
Irene McCollom	October 19th, 1958.	33:35
James Earl McCollom	1958.	33:35
Charles Houston	Yeah?	33:35
James Earl McCollom	Yeah.	33:35
Charles Houston	October?	33:35
Irene McCollom	We only have one child.	33:35
James Earl McCollom	We only have one.	33:35
Charles Houston	Oh, I'm sorry, it's Janice Elaine?	33:44
Irene McCollom	Yeah.	33:45
James Earl McCollom	Yeah.	33:45
Irene McCollom	October 19th, 1958.	33:46
Charles Houston	Okay. And she was born here in Orangeburg?	33:54
Irene McCollom	Yes she was.	33:56
Charles Houston	Right. Grandchildren?	33:57
Irene McCollom	No.	34:03
Charles Houston	Okay. It says list below the places where you've lived and the approximate dates. So—	34:14
James Earl McCollom	Okay. Well, mine wouldn't be too hard to figure, I would guess.	34:20
Irene McCollom	Kingstree.	34:23
James Earl McCollom	Kingstree, South Carolina.	34:23
Charles Houston	And I need the county again.	34:28
James Earl McCollom	Williamsburg.	34:30
Charles Houston	It's 1923, 2—	34:38
James Earl McCollom	Well, in Camden, I started elementary school. So—	34:41
Irene McCollom	Well Hattie was born in 1920, you already moved to Camden in two years.	34:46
James Earl McCollom	Say what now?	34:46
Irene McCollom	If Hattie was born in 1920—	34:46
James Earl McCollom	I didn't say Hattie was born in '20. EC was born in '20.	35:01
Irene McCollom	I mean, Hattie was born in '26. When did you say Hattie was born?	35:05
Charles Houston	'26.	35:06
James Earl McCollom	I said something around '26. You all	35:08
Irene McCollom	[indistinct 00:35:09] had moved from Kingstree to Camden, so you going to stay there about what, maybe 3 years?	35:09
James Earl McCollom	Well, I remember having started school in Camden, now.	35:17
Irene McCollom	I mean, you only stayed in Kingstree about 2 and half years, probably.	35:21
James Earl McCollom	You talking about me now, or Hattie? Yeah, you.	35:24
Irene McCollom	Hattie wasn't—	35:27
James Earl McCollom	Well, that's what I was trying to figure then.	35:27
Charles Houston	Yeah. So you must have moved to Camden in '25.	35:30
James Earl McCollom	That sounds pretty good.	35:37
Charles Houston	So Kingstree, '23 to '25.	35:38
James Earl McCollom	Yeah.	35:42
Charles Houston	And then Camden 1925—	35:42
James Earl McCollom	Until Orangeburg.	35:49
Charles Houston	And you said you were in the first grade when you came to Orangeburg.	35:52
James Earl McCollom	First or second. Second grade, I think it was. Because I started the school in Camden.	35:55
Charles Houston	Okay. So that would've been like 1929, 1930?	36:02
James Earl McCollom	That's right. So—	36:02
Irene McCollom	You decided—	36:02
James Earl McCollom	7, 8, 9, 10.	36:03
Irene McCollom	No, no. You want one before then, don't you? Well, let's [indistinct 00:36:13]—	36:03
Charles Houston	In 1930, you would've been seven years old.	36:13
James Earl McCollom	That's right.	36:13
Charles Houston	So say, you came here in 1930?	36:15
James Earl McCollom	Yes, I'm pretty sure it was '30.	36:18
Charles Houston	Okay. So Orangeburg in 1930.	36:19
Irene McCollom	Well [indistinct 00:36:24]—	36:19
Charles Houston	And what county is Camden?	36:25
James Earl McCollom	Kershaw.	36:26
Charles Houston	K-E-R-S-H-A-W.	36:28
James Earl McCollom	Right.	36:29
Charles Houston	And you were in Orangeburg 1930?	36:54
James Earl McCollom	Yep.	36:57
Charles Houston	Until you went to Bamberg?	36:57
James Earl McCollom	I went to Bamberg.	36:58
Charles Houston	And that was almost 10 years later, 'cause you were in like the 10th grade, right?	37:00
Irene McCollom	Well let's—	37:02
James Earl McCollom	Yes.	37:02
Charles Houston	No, no, it wasn't. It was like 8 years.	37:02
James Earl McCollom	8 years. Not 10.	37:02
Charles Houston	1938, you said, approximately?	37:18
James Earl McCollom	Yeah.	37:18
Charles Houston	And so you were in Bamberg—	37:18
Irene McCollom	So you decided on a [indistinct 00:37:21]?	37:19
Charles Houston	And that's B-A-M-B-E-R—	37:23
James Earl McCollom	B-A-M-B-E-R-G.	37:24
Irene McCollom	Well, can you wait eight to 12 weeks for a call?	37:26
Charles Houston	And that's in Bamberg County?	37:30
Irene McCollom	[indistinct 00:37:30].	37:30
James Earl McCollom	That's right.	37:30
Charles Houston	And that would be 1938 to 1940, '41?	37:35
James Earl McCollom	'40. I was going to see—I—	37:39
Irene McCollom	They probably had [indistinct 00:37:45].	37:39
James Earl McCollom	'40, '41—	37:39
Irene McCollom	Try down there.	37:39
James Earl McCollom	'42.	37:39
Irene McCollom	And call me tonight—	37:39
James Earl McCollom	I used to think about football season when I'm giving dates. That started 'cause instead of giving the date of the first of the year, so I was at Voorhees, and then I finished that in '43. So I must have finished Voorhees in what year?	37:52
Irene McCollom	'41.	38:11
Charles Houston	Yeah.	38:11
James Earl McCollom	'41.	38:11
Charles Houston	And you were there—	38:11
James Earl McCollom	Yeah, the war started.	38:14
Charles Houston	So you went to Voorhees—	38:16
James Earl McCollom	Two years.	38:18
Charles Houston	'39 and—	38:19
James Earl McCollom	'39 to '41.	38:20
Charles Houston	Okay. Now where were your parents living while you were at Voorhees?	38:24
James Earl McCollom	They went in Bamberg.	38:29
Charles Houston	Okay. So I think I'll keep, I mean rather than list all the places you went to school, I think I'll leave you your address in—I don't know.	38:30
James Earl McCollom	Well, actually we were staying both on campus and in Bamberg, 'cause most of the time the coach was doing football season and the coach would bring us over after football practice. It was only seven miles apart, Voorhees and Bamberg.	38:41
Charles Houston	So you actually stayed in Bamberg a lot when you were at Voorhees.	38:56
James Earl McCollom	Stayed home a lot. That's correct. But anytime we needed to stay on campus and eat on campus, we did.	39:00
Charles Houston	But if you started Voorhees in '39, you were at Bamberg for at least two years, that means you must have arrived at Bamberg in '37 rather than '38?	39:07
James Earl McCollom	'37.	39:14
Charles Houston	'Cause you were there, you said you finished your last—	39:14
James Earl McCollom	Well, okay. We used to have to move, what did I tell you, right after Christmas, right. So it was in the middle of the year when we moved to Bamberg. Now, if that makes any difference.	39:22
Charles Houston	Well—	39:34
James Earl McCollom	That wouldn't make any difference. No. Like, we moved there in January.	39:34
Charles Houston	Okay. And then you were there like a year?	39:39
James Earl McCollom	I spent half the year at [indistinct 00:39:42] and half the year in Bamberg.	39:41
Charles Houston	Well, maybe it was '38. So we'll say '38 until—Now when you went away to the service in '43, was your family still in Bamberg?	39:45
James Earl McCollom	No, we'd be in Orangeburg. We'd be in Orangeburg.	39:54
Charles Houston	Okay. So your family moved back to Orangeburg from Bamberg in what year, '41?	39:58
James Earl McCollom	Yes. It must have been '41. You right.	40:05
Charles Houston	So you were in Orangeburg from '41 until you went to Connecticut. And you were in Connecticut two years, you said.	40:09
James Earl McCollom	No, wait a minute now.	40:19
Charles Houston	I know you went to the military.	40:20
James Earl McCollom	Oh, oh, oh.	40:25
Charles Houston	Well, I'm just assuming your permanent address would've remained Orangeburg.	40:25
James Earl McCollom	That's right. Yeah.	40:30
Irene McCollom	[indistinct 00:40:31].	40:31
Charles Houston	Well, except for the two years that you were in Connecticut.	40:31
James Earl McCollom	In Connecticut. That's right.	40:33
Charles Houston	That's 1941 to 19—You got out in '46, you were in Connecticut two years, you came back in '49.	40:49
James Earl McCollom	Well, it may have been this a little more than two years. I'm saying two, I could have stayed up there, eight—	40:53
Charles Houston	So let's say '46. And you were in Connecticut '46 to '49.	41:00
James Earl McCollom	Okay.	41:02
Charles Houston	Is that right?	41:06
James Earl McCollom	That sounds right.	41:06
Charles Houston	Okay. Now you were in New Haven, did you say?	41:07
James Earl McCollom	Meriden.	41:10
Charles Houston	Meriden.	41:11
James Earl McCollom	M-E-R-I-D-E-N.	41:12
Charles Houston	Yeah. I believe that's just north of New Haven, but I don't know what county.	41:16
James Earl McCollom	It is north of New Haven. 18 miles. 18 miles on this side of [indistinct 00:41:24]?	41:19
Charles Houston	Yeah. I went to school between up there.	41:26
James Earl McCollom	Oh good. Okay.	41:29
Charles Houston	In a little town called Cheshire. Just about—	41:31
James Earl McCollom	Cheshire.	41:32
Charles Houston	—15 miles of Whitney Avenue.	41:33
James Earl McCollom	I used to go over there and see the pros practice every year.	41:35
Charles Houston	Oh, is that right?	41:37
James Earl McCollom	Mm-hmm. Yep. Cheshire.	41:38
Charles Houston	And you were there 1946 to '49, and then after that in Orangeburg. And the name of the—So you graduated from Voorhees?	41:41
James Earl McCollom	Yeah, it was junior college.	42:08
Charles Houston	And that's V-O-O-R-H-E-E-S?	42:10
James Earl McCollom	That's correct.	42:11
Charles Houston	Okay. Junior college. And—	42:13
James Earl McCollom	It's a four-year college now.	42:13
Charles Houston	You told me where that was a thousand times but—	42:28
Irene McCollom	Denmark.	42:31
James Earl McCollom	Denmark.	42:31
Charles Houston	Denmark. And that was 1939 to '41.	42:36
James Earl McCollom	Okay.	42:36
Charles Houston	And you finished with a, I guess an associates degree?	42:38
James Earl McCollom	Yeah, on my diploma it says, "Rural education."	42:46
Charles Houston	I'm going to call it an associates degree.	42:54
James Earl McCollom	That's what it says on there. I was qualified to teach in South Carolina when I finished—	42:58
Irene McCollom	In a rural area.	43:05
James Earl McCollom	In a rural area.	43:05
Charles Houston	And then it was South Carolina State College.	43:11
James Earl McCollom	Right.	43:26
Charles Houston	South Carolina State College, Orangeburg. 1941 to 1943. And that was a BS degree in physical education?	43:26
James Earl McCollom	Well, no, it wasn't in physical ed, it was in education.	43:34
Charles Houston	1940—	43:36
James Earl McCollom	Because State didn't offer a major. Then I had a minor in phys ed at the time.	43:40
Charles Houston	And now you told me you wanted to go back to school for an MS, but you didn't or you did?	43:52
James Earl McCollom	I did go back, but I didn't get it. I didn't go long enough.	43:57
Charles Houston	Where and when did you go?	44:03
James Earl McCollom	Oh, boy. Well, mostly summer schools. Almost every summer. Not every summer, but mostly summer schools.	44:05
Charles Houston	Was that at state or?	44:12
James Earl McCollom	At state. Nowhere else. At least on three or four different occasions. Taking a few courses here and there.	44:13
Charles Houston	I'll say summer postgraduate studies, 1950s.	44:29
James Earl McCollom	Well that—Yes.	44:34
Charles Houston	Let's say summer, 1950s.	44:37
James Earl McCollom	My transcript is right up in that drawer up there, but I'm guessing no sense in going through all of that.	44:44
Irene McCollom	[indistinct 00:44:50] in the family.	44:46
Charles Houston	Grad studies and this list, your current and most important previous job, so your most important previous jobs were teacher and coach at Wilkinson, Orangeburg—	44:57
James Earl McCollom	Wilkinson High School.	45:12
Irene McCollom	Wilkinson High School.	45:12
James Earl McCollom	Orangeburg.	45:12
Irene McCollom	When we merged, it became Orangeburg-Wilkinson, when they integrated. Put the two schools together. [indistinct 00:45:38].	45:17
Charles Houston	And that was 1950?	45:46
James Earl McCollom	Well—	45:48
Irene McCollom	Yeah, it was 1950.	45:49
Charles Houston	To 1980?	45:49
Irene McCollom	To 1980.	45:49
James Earl McCollom	Oh, you mean the span over which I went?	45:54
Charles Houston	Yes. Your—	45:57
James Earl McCollom	Yeah. That's right. Because yeah, that's—	45:57
Charles Houston	Okay.	45:57
James Earl McCollom	[indistinct 00:45:58].	45:57
Charles Houston	And that's really, I mean, you don't want to list—This is most important previous jobs, so you don't want list those things you did when you got out of the military?	45:57
James Earl McCollom	No, that regular, that bricklaying stuff, like, that wasn't a significant job, really.	46:12
Charles Houston	No. Okay.	46:20
James Earl McCollom	It wasn't even every day.	46:20
Charles Houston	Now I'd like to list the awards and honors you've received and any offices that you've held in any organizations. And again, it doesn't have to be every little thing, whatever—	46:20

Charles Houston	I'm sorry, you were saying?	0:01
James Earl McCollom	Oh, well, I was the chairman of the South Carolina Association of Health, Physical Education and Recreation.	0:03
Charles Houston	South Carolina Association of Health, Physical Education and Recreation?	0:11
James Earl McCollom	That's right. And please don't ask me years because that could have been any time between '50 and '80.	0:14
Charles Houston	Well, I'm just going to put 1950s on.	0:23
James Earl McCollom	Well actually I was for several years. I just don't remember—	0:33
Irene McCollom	You got that in the seventies.	0:39
James Earl McCollom	In the seventies.	0:40
Charles Houston	Okay. Okay, that's fine.	0:40
Charles Houston	Any other organizations or memberships.	0:40
James Earl McCollom	Well, memberships in South Carolina Teachers Association.	0:49
Charles Houston	Okay. South Carolina Teachers Association.	0:57
James Earl McCollom	Yep. And South Carolina Coaches Association.	1:00
Charles Houston	Okay.	1:03
James Earl McCollom	I was chosen one year as the athletic director of the year for the State of South Carolina.	1:09
Charles Houston	Athletic Director.	1:19
James Earl McCollom	Which qualified me to run on the national level.	1:25
Charles Houston	And what was the organization that honored you as the Athletic Director of the Year?	1:31
James Earl McCollom	The State of South Carolina.	1:39
Charles Houston	Okay. What year was that? Do you remember?	1:48
James Earl McCollom	You'd have to look at that plaque and hanging in the den with my wife is back. That was right before I retired. Well, 1980. My last year, that's when it was.	1:51
Charles Houston	Okay.	2:02
James Earl McCollom	All right. I was Commander and veteran of foreign wars.	2:03
Charles Houston	Okay.	2:10
James Earl McCollom	Post 8166. Well, you might want to list that as post commander. I don't want them getting mixed up with national.	2:10
Charles Houston	Post Commander, Veterans—	2:19
James Earl McCollom	Of Foreign Wars.	2:21
Charles Houston	Orangeburg chapter?	2:29
James Earl McCollom	Well, the Post is located here in Orangeburg, yes.	2:32
Irene McCollom	Did you tell them about the National High School Coaches Director?	2:35
James Earl McCollom	Yes, I told them that I can't think of any other ones except the South Carolina one.	2:40
Irene McCollom	Well, you were nominated for the national.	2:44
James Earl McCollom	I told him that.	2:45
Charles Houston	What year were you post commander?	2:54
James Earl McCollom	Years.	2:56
Charles Houston	Oh, years?	2:58
Irene McCollom	In the late fifties and early sixties.	2:58
James Earl McCollom	Let's just say, let's say from 1958 through '65.	3:03
Charles Houston	Okay.	3:07
James Earl McCollom	Used to mention the [indistinct 00:03:14] so I forget about that. Those were my basic awards, I guess.	3:12
Charles Houston	Okay.	3:23
Charles Houston	And the nomination for National Athletic Director of the year was 1980 as well?	3:23
James Earl McCollom	Yes. Yes.	3:38
Charles Houston	And you are currently United Methodist, your previous denomination.	3:39
James Earl McCollom	Right.	3:44
Charles Houston	And it's Trinity.	3:49
James Earl McCollom	Trinity.	3:52
Charles Houston	And your previous affiliation, I mean your church, previous church membership?	3:53
James Earl McCollom	Well, none except those towns where we used to live in	4:01
Irene McCollom	All of them were Methodist—	4:05
James Earl McCollom	All of them were Methodist churches, right.	4:09
Charles Houston	Now, other than the South Carolina Teachers Association, 1950s for that?	4:13
Irene McCollom	Yes.	4:21
Charles Houston	And what about the Coaches Association? All same thing, 1950s.?	4:24
Irene McCollom	Well, no, that was—	4:29
James Earl McCollom	The one where I was nominated for the national office was in 1980.	4:31
Charles Houston	Okay. But as a member of the association, just your membership and the association—	4:37
James Earl McCollom	Oh, yeah. Goes back to, goes 1950s. Right,	4:42
Charles Houston	Okay. And NAACP I presume?	4:44
James Earl McCollom	Yes.	4:51
Charles Houston	From the 1950s.	4:51
James Earl McCollom	Well, yes.	4:52
Charles Houston	And that's NAACP Orangeburg [indistinct 00:04:59] Was national. I guess this NAACP—	4:57
James Earl McCollom	Well, I joined in Connecticut that last year I was up there, but—	5:01
Charles Houston	I'll put 1947.	5:06
James Earl McCollom	Yeah. But most of my affiliation was here though.	5:07
Charles Houston	I mean, if you do one in Connecticut, it had to have been before 1950.	5:14
James Earl McCollom	Okay.	5:18
Charles Houston	Any other organizations that we should put down?	5:20
Irene McCollom	Kappa Alpha Psi.	5:22
James Earl McCollom	Oh goodness, thanks. Don't forget about my fraternity.	5:29
Charles Houston	And so you joined there South Carolina State?	5:34
James Earl McCollom	No, graduated chapter, 1956.	5:37
Charles Houston	Okay.	5:38
Charles Houston	Okay. Anything else?	5:38
James Earl McCollom	Oh boy. That's about it.	5:53
Charles Houston	Okay. Says list below, any other activities or affiliations? Military service. I'll say US—	5:56
James Earl McCollom	US States Army.	6:07
Charles Houston	US Army. US Army	6:09
James Earl McCollom	1943 to 46.	6:11
Charles Houston	'46. '43 to '46. And labor unions? Hobbies? Interests? Publications? And favorite sayings, phrases—	6:20
James Earl McCollom	No, I don't have too much of that.	6:34
Charles Houston	Okay. Well the last thing, and this is the very last thing.	6:35
James Earl McCollom	Okie doke.	6:42
Charles Houston	—Is to request your signature.	6:42
James Earl McCollom	Well, I hope I'm having a little problem doing that with.	6:45
Charles Houston	[indistinct 00:06:49].	6:47
James Earl McCollom	Okay, well that's good.	6:48
Charles Houston	That would be fine.	6:49
James Earl McCollom	Very good.	6:49
Charles Houston	I'll read this to you and then you can you can look it over. This just explains what you're signing.	6:51
James Earl McCollom	All right.	6:58
Charles Houston	Interview agreement. The purpose of the Behind the Veil Documenting African American Life in the Jim Crow South project is to gather and preserve historical documents by means of tape recorded interviews. Tape recordings and transcripts resulting from such interviews become a part of the archives of the Behind the Veil collection of Duke University.	6:59
Charles Houston	The material will be made available for historical and other academic research and public dissemination, regulated according to the restrictions placed on its use by the interviewee. Duke University is assigned rights, title and interest to the interviews unless otherwise specified. Participation in Center for Documentary Studies projects is entirely voluntary.	7:19
Charles Houston	Then it says "We've read the above and we voluntarily offer the information contained in these oral history research interviews in view of the scholarly value of this research material, we hereby permit Duke University to retain it without any restrictions." And then there's yet another clause here that just above the signatures that says, "We, the undersigned have read the above and voluntarily offered Duke University full use of the information contained on tapes and transcripts of these oral history research interviews. In view of the scholarly value of this research, we hereby assign rights title and interest pertaining to it to Duke University."	7:44
Charles Houston	And what I'm going to do is put both your names here and maybe you could just sign it for both of you.	8:21
Irene McCollom	Okay.	8:36
Charles Houston	And your middle initial is W.	8:46
Irene McCollom	Yes.	8:47
James Earl McCollom	Right.	9:20
James Earl McCollom	Speaking of Duke, we had five nieces who graduated from Duke.	9:20
Irene McCollom	Four.	9:25
James Earl McCollom	Oh, four. Yeah.	9:26
James Earl McCollom	Charles Houston.	9:27
Charles Houston	Yeah. I'm working on this project out of Duke, but I'm, I'm not studying at Duke.	9:31
James Earl McCollom	Yeah. Okay.	9:36
Charles Houston	I'm at the University of Maryland.	9:37
James Earl McCollom	Right.	9:38
Charles Houston	My 10 days at Duke, the very 1st of June, were my first time there. Some very good people there in history.	9:39
James Earl McCollom	Of course.	9:51
Irene McCollom	I have a good friend soror who is the academic dean at Duke. Caroline Lattimore. Dr. Lattimore. When you go back there, look her up.	9:52
James Earl McCollom	What's her name?	10:03
Irene McCollom	Caroline Lattimore. Dr. Lattimore, L-A-T-T-I-M-O-R-E	10:04
Charles Houston	And she's Dean of students?	10:12
Irene McCollom	She's an academic dean at Duke.	10:14
Charles Houston	Yeah. I'll be on campus—Where the Center for Documentary Studies is on the old—	10:20
James Earl McCollom	Did you cut—Did you cut it off?	10:28
Charles Houston	Oh, I will.	10:28

Item Info

Title:

James McCollom (primary interviewee) and Irene McCollom interview recording, 1994 August 05

Date:

August 5, 1994

Creator:

Contributor:

Houston, Charles

Description:

Name: James Earl McCollom; Date of birth: 1923-03-07; Place of birth: Williamsburg Co., SC; Occupation(s): educator; Residence: Orangeburge, SC. Name: Irene McCollom; Date of birth: 1933-10-08; Place of birth: Alexander City, AL; Occupation(s): educator; Residence: Orangeburge, SC
Informant ID: 449; Informant ID: 450; Interviewed by: Charles Houston.

Occupation:

Educator

Location:

Format:

Language:

English

Digital Collection:

Behind the Veil

Source Collection:

Behind the Veil: Documenting African American Life in the Jim Crow South interviews, photographs, and project records, circa 1864-2011, bulk 1990-2004

Series:

Related Resources:

See below

Provenance:

The David M. Rubenstein Rare Book and Manuscript Library acquired the Records of the Behind the Veil Oral History Project from the Duke University Center for Documentary Studies in 1997, 1998, 2000, and 2002.

Rights:

Limited Re-Use

CC BY-NC 4.0

Rights Note:

Copyright for content created by the Behind the Veil project is held by Duke University and made available to the public using a Creative Commons Attribution / Non-commercial (CC-BY-NC) license.

Identifier:

RL00170-CS-1390
RL00170-CS-1391
84b0be73-1129-40fd-b64b-e410a70252ec
behindtheveil
c2fa0c7e-7c79-49d3-93c0-697776e70c47
ark:/87924/r4w37z50n
c2fa0c7e-7c79-49d3-93c0-697776e70c47

Permalink:

https://idn.duke.edu/ark:/87924/r4w37z50n

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James McCollom (primary interviewee) and Irene McCollom interview recording, 1994 August 05

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Item Info

1. James McCollom and Irene McCollom administrative file, 1994

John Hope Franklin Research Center

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