Lucy Dudley interview recording, 1993 August 03

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Lucy Leary Dudley	Lucy L.—I. Dudley.	0:00
Kara Miles	Okay. So tell me about this midwives and diapering and all that that Miss Carrie was just talking about.	0:08
Lucy Leary Dudley	Well I was born in Pitt County, and I was mostly a babysitter at first, because my mother had to work, and I had to take care of the baby. And I had to diaper baby, because they don't diaper them like they do now. They had to use one, use mostly three pins in the diaper, two for the side and one for the [indistinct 00:00:58] of the baby. And I had to do feeding. The feeding was not like they are now. The feeding was too many foods that shouldn't have been, but that's the way it was in my day, chew the baby food and give it to them. And I was a mother to my baby sister, and I had to diaper her. We had to go outdoors somewhere.	0:14
Lucy Leary Dudley	So when we had to be diapered, we had to be used, as I recall, going to the restroom. It was out the door, behind the house or behind the building or somewhere. I was worried, well to take care of the younger one under the baby or over the baby, and I had to wash after the baby. Mother had to work [indistinct 00:03:28] five days to the week, and I had to babysit. Lots of times I had to wash behind the baby.	3:18
Kara Miles	How old were you when you started watching the baby?	3:35
Lucy Leary Dudley	I don't exactly know the date, but I didn't go to school early like they do now. I didn't go to school until I was [indistinct 00:03:50] about nine years old before I went to school.	3:39
Kara Miles	Is that because you had to watch the baby before then?	3:56
Lucy Leary Dudley	I had to take care of the baby, because my mother, she had to go almost like her father did.	3:57
Kara Miles	What did your mother do?	4:06
Lucy Leary Dudley	She worked for the lady that we farmed with. She done her washing and sometimes done her cooking. And she would bring home what was left over [indistinct 00:04:41] from what was cooked and what was left from the lady we farmed with. Sometimes she had to bring home that leftover for we children.	4:11
Kara Miles	Did you like when she would bring that home, when she would bring it?	4:53
Lucy Leary Dudley	Yeah, we liked it cold. We was glad she would bring it home, because she didn't allow us to cook at my age. But I started cooking very early. I had to stand on a stool and look in the pot, so I could see what was in the pot, how much water was in the pot. I had to stand on a stool. I started doing just that early.	4:58
Kara Miles	What kind of things would you cook?	5:23
Lucy Leary Dudley	Huh?	5:28
Kara Miles	What kind of things did you cook? What kind of food did you cook?	5:29
Lucy Leary Dudley	We would cook beans and cabbage or collards or whatever she was going to have for dinner. She'd put it out, so I could get in my reach, so I could get it. And she would tell me she would dot the clock. She'd take her finger and put it in the flower and dot the clock. "When the hand get along here," she said, "You put this in the pot." And that's the way she'd dot the clock. I couldn't tell time like she could, but she'd dot the clock with the flour, with her finger. And I could know what time to put the bread in the pot, because we cooked bread in the pot more so than we did bake it.	5:33
Kara Miles	Okay, how do you cook bread in a pot?	6:18
Lucy Leary Dudley	We call it dumpling. And she'd put the meat on before she go, and then she'd put the collards or beans or whichever we're going to cook, she'd put them in what we call a dishpan and wash them, let it sit there and say, "When the clock hand get along here now, you put this in the pot. And when it cook down low enough, then you get these here dumplings." You put the dumplings in a tray. Everybody almost used a tray to make up bread in, and she'd lay a dumpling out for everyone that was going to eat, for everybody had a dumpling. And we'd lay the dumplings in the pot after the collards or beans, whatever I had on. You'd put that in the pot and put the lid on and just keep enough fire. We were cooking with wood. We weren't cooking with no gas or oil or nothing like that. We would cook with wood, so I had to see about keeping some wood in the stove and see about water getting too low in the pot.	6:27
Lucy Leary Dudley	So when stuff was going, I don't ever remember burning anything she left. I always had it just about right. Then she come, she didn't have nothing to do for a time but take it up, put it on the table and for my father and brother or whoever going to eat. And we, that's the way we done. And my older sister, she mostly had to go with my mother. Whatever Mother had to do, she had to go with Mother.	7:47
Kara Miles	So she went to work with your mother.	8:03
Lucy Leary Dudley	Uh-huh, my older sister, and I had to stay home and take care of the baby. I clothed the baby one time. I had to wash his diapers and then diaper the baby.	8:03
Kara Miles	Did you have brothers?	9:04
Lucy Leary Dudley	Yeah, I had a brother. I had a older brother and a older sister, had two sisters older than I and one brother.	9:11
Kara Miles	What did your other sister do? You said one sister went with your mother to work.	9:18
Lucy Leary Dudley	Yeah, most of the time she'd leave the baby in my hands, because she first started leaving the baby in the other sister's hands. But she said the other sister would eat the baby's food. Instead of giving it to the baby, she'd eat about half of it. And she found it out, so she put me into taking care of the baby. I would get the baby before she'd leave for the day.	9:22
Kara Miles	So what did that sister do around the house? What was her job?	9:47
Lucy Leary Dudley	Yeah, she'd play around and pick up things, and she would diaper the baby sometimes too. But she mostly left the baby in my hands, because she said I was more — act more like a mother to the baby than my other sister did. Because some children don't like bothering with little babies, but I didn't mind it. And so she'd leave the baby mostly in my hands.	9:51
Kara Miles	What kind of stuff did your brothers do?	10:24
Lucy Leary Dudley	Well they'd go with their daddy. And whatever he done, whatever it was, he [indistinct 00:10:33] coal, scrubbing, scrubbing. They call it scrubbing. They would cut the ditch bank, breaking ground. And brother would be sometimes, he wouldn't be done so much but to be with his daddy. They didn't leave him to the house.	10:31
Kara Miles	What was your house like that you grew up in?	10:47
Lucy Leary Dudley	Well it wasn't so pleasant, but my mother was good for quilting, we call patching, patching up things. And she [indistinct 00:11:20] the house had the holes in it, where you could look right out without going outdoors. We even stayed in houses like that.	10:48
Kara Miles	No, I've heard about them.	11:33
Lucy Leary Dudley	Yeah, we stayed in the houses, could go and look out. She tells us not go in the road or not go out in the driveway such as that. So we would look out through them cracks and take care of like that. But most of the time she would want us to stay in, wouldn't be in the way of nobody or bother nobody else's things, nobody else's goods or nobody else's garden.	11:35
Kara Miles	How many rooms did your house have?	12:13
Lucy Leary Dudley	Sometimes it had three.	12:15
Kara Miles	What do you mean, sometimes had three?	12:20
Lucy Leary Dudley	Yeah, had three-room house, and sometimes we called a shed, we called it, the boys room, the shed room. I don't know why they called it shed, but that's what they called it. Boys slept in the shed room, and girls slept in the other, in the room of the house.	12:29
Kara Miles	So the shed room, was that part of the house?	12:49
Lucy Leary Dudley	It was part of the house, but sometimes the kitchen won't connect to the house and had what we call a flat form going to the kitchen. So three or four boards, we didn't hardly ever call them porches. They always called them flat form. I don't know why they did. They would go from house to the kitchen. They called them flat forms.	12:50
Kara Miles	Okay, a flat farm?	13:17
Lucy Leary Dudley	Flat form.	13:17
Kara Miles	Fat farm?	13:17
Lucy Leary Dudley	Flat, you go down the flat form, don't fall off the flat form, go into the kitchen. If it rains, you're told the flat form might be slippery. She said, "Look out going to the kitchen on the flat form." I don't know why they called it like that, but they did.	13:24
Kara Miles	Did you live in the same house the whole time growing up, or did you move around to other houses?	13:42
Lucy Leary Dudley	Yeah, we moved. My daddy was a moving man. I can't say exactly where my real home was, because my daddy moved. He stayed in one place two years, and if he didn't get satisfaction, he'd get up and go.	13:47
Kara Miles	What would make him satisfied with the house or with where he was?	14:05
Lucy Leary Dudley	Sometimes he was moving one [indistinct 00:14:14] but to the man he was staying with, when he couldn't get along with sometimes. That's why he moved. He didn't worry about the house, Papa didn't. My father didn't. Mamma now, she liked to get in a better one every time. But my father, it didn't make much difference to him, if Mamma didn't care.	14:11
Kara Miles	So you all would live on —	14:42
Lucy Leary Dudley	From farm to farm.	14:43
Kara Miles	So would you rent land? You would rent a house from—	14:47
Lucy Leary Dudley	We were renting. We didn't have nothing of our own. We was renters; Papa was.	14:52
Kara Miles	Okay, so your father would pay. Every month he would pay the owner something, or how did he rent that?	14:59
Lucy Leary Dudley	No, he didn't pay nothing. If he was going to farm, he didn't pay nothing.	15:09
Kara Miles	Okay, so he farmed.	15:10
Lucy Leary Dudley	He farmed and raised about — We raised our meat such as chickens and hogs, and we had a cow as long as I can remember. He'd look out for that part. I can't say my father didn't look out for the feeding, but we moved a lot. I couldn't say I had not special home until I got married. I didn't ever move no more after I got married.	15:11
Kara Miles	You didn't?	15:45
Lucy Leary Dudley	No, he, my husband had his own home, house and cows, hogs and mules and horse, everything.	15:49
Kara Miles	Great.	15:57
Lucy Leary Dudley	But my father didn't.	15:57
Kara Miles	You said your father didn't pay rent, but he farmed. So he would give —	16:02
Lucy Leary Dudley	If he farmed, he didn't pay no rent.	16:08
Kara Miles	Okay, so would he have to give the owner some of the crops or some of —	16:23
Lucy Leary Dudley	Hay for it, sometimes was hay, if according to how he rent it. If he rent, if he moved in to farm, he didn't pay nothing.	16:23
Kara Miles	Okay, what kind of things did he farm?	16:33
Lucy Leary Dudley	He had corn and cotton, tobacco and field peas. All the field peas right now we get, we had to buy them. But we raised our peas. Sometimes we raised peanuts, and sometimes we raised field peas we had to shell.	16:36
Kara Miles	Okay. Did you used to help on the farm?	16:55
Lucy Leary Dudley	Yeah, after I got up larger. Mamma commenced staying to the house some and let we children go to work. So that made a difference.	17:07
Kara Miles	So how old were you when your mother decided to let the children start working?	17:21
Lucy Leary Dudley	Well I reckon I was 11 or 12 years old before she started staying to the house and let we children work. And so that was so much better, because she knew what she wanted to cook and how she wanted. She didn't have to dot nothing.	17:28
Kara Miles	Yeah. So what kind of work did you do when that happened?	17:46
Lucy Leary Dudley	Well when that happened, we had to chop cotton, pick cotton and [indistinct 00:17:58] tobacco. We even had to chop peanuts. You farm peanuts, you got to chop them. But we didn't never chop no field peas, nothing. See, he plant them. Whatever come up in the peas, they stayed in there, because we didn't ever chop no peas. But we would chop the corn and tobacco and peanuts and sweet potatoes and white potatoes. All that stuff we cooked, we raised.	17:51
Kara Miles	So when you were about 11, that's when you started going to work on the farm.	18:37
Lucy Leary Dudley	I started work.	18:41
Kara Miles	Okay, and you would all work. You and your brothers and sisters would work on the farm, the land that your father was working.	18:44
Lucy Leary Dudley	The same farm, we all worked together. And after I got up large enough to use a hoe to chop with, and so I learned how to not chop the regular food down, the stuff we were going to use. I didn't chop that down. We was chopping at the [indistinct 00:19:16], the weeds. So we got along all right after Mamma started staying to the house. The children then took the field, and Mother, she stayed to the house.	18:50
Kara Miles	Did one of your go to work in the owner's house like your mother had been doing, or did she still do that?	19:27
Lucy Leary Dudley	No, my mom, they all were in the same house, no separation.	19:34
Kara Miles	But remember you said that your mother would go to work in the house on the people who owned the land, that she would go to work for them.	19:44
Lucy Leary Dudley	Yeah, she worked for them until, everywhere we went, until the children got large enough to carry on the work. Then she got staying to the house and let the children go.	20:19
Kara Miles	Go ahead.	20:19
Lucy Leary Dudley	My two older sisters and my older brother and I, we all started working, and she stayed to the house, took care of the house then.	20:19
Kara Miles	So would you go to work at the owner's house? Would you go to do their washing or cooking or anything?	20:20
Lucy Leary Dudley	No, we didn't do none of that. Mamma did, but we didn't do none of that. We just worked in the field.	20:26
Kara Miles	So even when you all got larger, she still went there to do the washing and cooking?	20:34
Lucy Leary Dudley	She done did work home, washing and cooking and baby take care. She done all that.	20:39
Kara Miles	Okay. Did you like to farm?	20:50
Lucy Leary Dudley	Yeah, I liked it.	20:50
Kara Miles	What did you like best? What crops did you like doing best?	20:54
Lucy Leary Dudley	I liked it all until it come time to pick the cotton.	20:58
Kara Miles	Didn't like picking cotton.	21:21
Lucy Leary Dudley	I didn't like that part. And another thing I didn't like, they pulled. They called pull fodder.	21:21
Kara Miles	They did what?	21:21
Lucy Leary Dudley	Pull fodder.	21:21
Kara Miles	What's that?	21:21
Lucy Leary Dudley	That's the blades on the corn. I learned how to do that, but I didn't like that much, but I had to learn it. And he used to, he would encourage us. "You all are to do this and do that." And we worked on Saturdays. He said, "You all have what you make, you work on Saturday." And the rest of the time, he collected. But on Saturday or a holiday, if we done something on a holiday, he give that to us.	21:21
Kara Miles	He would give you money for it, or he would give you —	21:57
Lucy Leary Dudley	Yeah, the work for what we had. We could do what we pleased with it now. Like if we pulled fodder, we pulled fodder for the owner of the land, and he pay us. If he paid Papa, he give it to us.	22:01
Kara Miles	What did you used to do with the money?	22:19
Lucy Leary Dudley	We'd buy cheeses, a little cheese. And we call cheese and crackers and sardines. I thought [indistinct 00:22:36] nothing like sardines. And sauces, you could buy sauce at dinner already cooked. Of course you get some now, but they weren't like that. They was in jars, and we'd buy sauces and stuff like that, candy and the stuff. Because we didn't have to buy the groceries, because Pa would've done that. But we got what we wanted with our little money.	22:19
Kara Miles	Where was the store that you would go to? How far away was the store?	23:09
Lucy Leary Dudley	Sometimes we were close, and sometimes we were far. Because according to where he moved at, he moved close to a store, we go. But if we were far off now, we'd hold up a little money until we could get to the store.	23:19
Kara Miles	Were the stores owned by White people?	23:31
Lucy Leary Dudley	Mm-hmm. We had one or two Black stores, but most of them were White. And I was telling some of them last week, I said I could find some [indistinct 00:23:57] sweet cakes the way we used to get. They were large sweet cakes and had a hole in them. And I loved that, because it would taste good with [indistinct 00:24:06]. I tell you, we don't see none of them like that now. You get some of them, they're so hard, you can't hardly eat them.	23:33
Lucy Leary Dudley	So that's where I come up, eating like that. But one thing Papa did, he [indistinct 00:24:23]. That's one thing. I mean he give us our little money. We would work on holidays. We'd work on holidays. We would work on holidays sometimes, Saturdays. He'd give us that, and that's what we would get, sardines, soda crackers and cheese. Cheese was easy to buy [indistinct 00:24:49]. I worked several, many days for 50 cents. And Mamma, she worked for 50 cents sometimes, and sometimes she carried me with her.	24:16
Lucy Leary Dudley	After I got up, she would go out. She thought we wouldn't do the person's work good enough. She didn't want the boy to flubber, didn't want to what we call flubber. They called it flubber, if you didn't chop it good. And she'd go along with us. She'd put me on her row and let me chop a little place, the header to help her out. I done that [indistinct 00:25:38] go help Mamma on her row, what she was chopping. If I didn't chop it good, she'd come along behind me and finish cleaning it.	25:07
Kara Miles	So you would make 50 cent a day, like when you worked on the holiday?	25:48
Lucy Leary Dudley	Yeah, we'd get 50 cent.	25:53
Kara Miles	And so when you would go to the store with your 50 cent, how much could you buy with 50 cent?	25:57
Lucy Leary Dudley	Well sometimes one would get cheese, and one, some get the soda crackers. And we all get together, and we would buy ourselves our little goodies. We'd bring some. We'd bring it home, but we would get what we would get.	26:02
Kara Miles	Then you'd take it home and all eat it together.	26:26
Lucy Leary Dudley	All eat together. Papa, he would never bother. We would buy something like that, he wouldn't bother with us. He'd give it up to us. Mamma, she'd eat some. She'd eat some with us. But Papa, he give it to us. He wouldn't bother with it, hardly ever bothered with it. But the sweet potatoes and white potatoes and peas and corn and tobacco and all that stuff, that's what we farmed.	26:31
Kara Miles	Okay. You said that you didn't like picking cotton.	26:50
Lucy Leary Dudley	I know I didn't like that. That's one thing I didn't like, and pulling that fodder. They called it fodder, but it's the blades on the corn.	27:01
Kara Miles	Why didn't you like that? What was bad about that?	27:12
Lucy Leary Dudley	Well I couldn't keep up with the rest of them, and then you're grabbing cotton. I was slow about picking it [indistinct 00:27:23]. And to skin up your finger, I didn't like that. But the fodder, it was kind of rough. You pull it down, and you didn't mind that, you cut yourself. Yeah, how come I didn't like the fodder, but I had to pull it. But Father farming, and he had corn, and he had corn. And so he had to pull his too, just like the other folks. And we'd pull it, get us all we could hold in our hand and then tie it and hang it back on the stalk.	27:16
Kara Miles	Did you have, when you were growing up, did you see a lot of White people? Were there a lot of White people around you?	28:07
Lucy Leary Dudley	Well we were farming with White folks. Ever farm he moved on was White, and that's how come sometimes, if they rushed my daddy, he was kind of quick tempered. If they rushed him too much, and he would done the best he could, at the end of that year, he was gone.	28:15
Kara Miles	So your daddy was quick tempered.	28:45
Lucy Leary Dudley	Yeah.	28:45
Kara Miles	Did he ever have any run-ins, any fights with the Whites that he worked for?	28:45
Lucy Leary Dudley	No, they didn't fight, but he'd get up and go. Mamma called my daddy Bud. I don't know why, because that's the way they call. She called him Bud, and, "I'd rather move before you did fight." He never, never had known him to fight, but he would get up and go. I just thought he moved too much, but Mamma would rather go than fight.	28:49
Kara Miles	Did your parents ever talk about White people? Did they like White people, or did they—	29:22
Lucy Leary Dudley	Yeah, seemed like everybody he farmed with liked him. But they would impose on him sometimes, and he didn't like it. He'd get up and go, if they imposed on him. At least if they imposed on him and his children, he'd get up and go [indistinct 00:29:52].	29:28
Kara Miles	Okay. So when you would live on the White farms, would there be other Black people living on the farm too?	29:56
Lucy Leary Dudley	Yeah, sometimes it'd be two or three folks on that same farm.	30:00
Kara Miles	Would you all work together, or would you each have your own piece of land that you worked?	30:07
Lucy Leary Dudley	Well we would have our farm to ourselves, and the other fellow would have him to his self. But when it come to housing tobacco, they all would come work together, because had to have so many to barn, what you call putting tobacco into the barn. Had to have so many to a barn, and when you have so many to a barn, had to have some of the men from here, some of the men, some of the women, or everybody couldn't tie tobacco. And some of them wouldn't have hands, so we had to use what we could get like that.	30:14
Kara Miles	Would the Black families that lived on the same farm, would they be friendly with each other?	31:06
Lucy Leary Dudley	Yeah, mostly all I know where he moved at, they all didn't never have no falling out or nothing.	31:11
Kara Miles	Would they help each other out if they needed it, if someone needed help on their farm or something?	31:22
Lucy Leary Dudley	Yeah, they got along all right. I ain't known no time that they didn't get along. Or who he farmed with, I mean the other families, they got along as far as I know. If there was any dissatisfaction, he didn't let we children know it. And some of them were kind of peculiar, but he didn't have no fussing out with the families.	31:28
Kara Miles	What do you mean that some of them were kind of peculiar?	31:53
Lucy Leary Dudley	Yeah, some of them were, kind of. Some of them would try to get up early and get they work done before the other ones do. And so he thought that would please the boss man. Some of them would try to do that. And I didn't hear him speak about it, but he didn't really no fussing. And I was glad of that, because Mamma didn't believe in no fuss.	31:55
Kara Miles	When you were growing up, did you play with White children?	32:05
Lucy Leary Dudley	Yeah, I played with them and ate with them.	32:49
Kara Miles	You ate with them, okay.	32:50
Lucy Leary Dudley	Yeah. Their mother would leave them to the house, and she'd go off. We'd all get together. I remember sitting there, and the children go barefooted more than they do now. We'd sit down and make what we call frog houses together.	32:51
Kara Miles	Make what?	33:08
Lucy Leary Dudley	Frog houses, we called them frog houses, heap up dirt on our feet, because we all were barefooted. The White children and we too were barefooted, and we sat in the sand and heaped dirt up on our feet and then take our foot out and call it frog house. Yeah, I done that.	33:08
Kara Miles	What other kind of games and things did you play?	33:36
Lucy Leary Dudley	Yeah, we played little games such as drop this handker.	33:41
Kara Miles	What's that?	33:42
Lucy Leary Dudley	You make a ring, all everybody take hold of hands and make a great circle. And one stand in the middle of the ring, and the one standing in the middle would have a handker in hand. And he'd go around and around and drop the handker behind somebody. That one over yonder could see the handker, but this one here dropped it behind him couldn't see. And he would run around the place like that, because he dropped the handker. Things like that, and this we call, another play we had, starts and still. That sounds silly now, but we played it.	33:54
Kara Miles	How'd you play that one?	34:35
Lucy Leary Dudley	Everybody hold hands and just go around and around and around. We called it starts and still. I don't know why come. I don't know where they get it from, but we played it.	34:37
Kara Miles	And so you would play these games with the White children [indistinct 00:34:55].	34:53
Lucy Leary Dudley	We all would play together.	34:55
Kara Miles	Was there a certain age when the White children would stop playing with you?	34:58
Lucy Leary Dudley	Yeah, sometimes the older ones wouldn't play with [indistinct 00:35:08]. They stand and look at us and all like that, but they didn't — If they were teenage up, Lord, they didn't play with us, we small children.	35:06
Kara Miles	Okay. Would teenage White children play with teenage Black children, with the same age Black children?	35:26
Lucy Leary Dudley	Well they didn't so much as they got up to teenage, didn't do so much playing. They'd sit and talk together.	35:33
Kara Miles	Okay, but they would still be friendly after—	35:39
Lucy Leary Dudley	My older sister would sit and talk with the older ones along with her. But then the smaller ones, they all played together. But as long as they got up to teenagers, they didn't play together. I had found them.	35:41
Kara Miles	It's okay. Would you ever go to the White children's houses and play? Would you go in their houses and play?	35:56
Lucy Leary Dudley	No, we didn't. We all played outdoors most the time. Most the time we played outdoors.	36:07
Kara Miles	Do you remember your grandparents? Did you know them?	36:18
Lucy Leary Dudley	I don't remember. I didn't see none of my grandparents. I wanted, I'd have been glad to seen some of them, but I didn't. My father's folks had died, he said, before he was a teenage boy. And my mother, she said her grandmother raised her. She didn't stay home with her mother much, because her grandmother raised her. So that's why they all was, when her and my daddy got married, they both died before I got large enough, old enough to know. I tell my children now, say, "Y'all are blessed. You've seen your grandma." But I say, "I didn't see none of mine."	36:20
Kara Miles	Yeah. Did your parents ever talk about your grandparents, talk about their parents?	37:17
Lucy Leary Dudley	Yeah, I didn't hear Papa say much about his. Mamma talked about hers some, how they was, had their tote things. And you didn't so much riding. Everything was walking. You had tote food and wood and blocks and things like that. She had to carry them mostly on her shoulders and helps and like they done like that. I didn't never hear Papa say much about his.	37:25
Kara Miles	Did they ever talk about slavery? Had their parents been slaves?	38:03
Lucy Leary Dudley	Well my daddy did speak about that. He said he had an uncle named Richard, and he said he stayed with him a lot, told his daddy that went to his uncle. And he said his daddy was there, apparently was fighting. He said his daddy would tell him that. He called them Yankees or something. His daddy said, "You hear that shooting?" Said, "That's them Yankees." I don't know who they were calling Yankees, but I heard him say that. He said he would call, he said, "That's them Yankees." But I don't know who they was. I don't know whether they were different nationalities or what. But he tell, he said his uncle would tell him who they was. His uncle called them Yankees. I don't know who they was.	38:07
Kara Miles	Did you have aunts and uncles? Did you know any aunts and uncles?	38:33
Lucy Leary Dudley	Now my mother's brother, I remember one of her brothers, he got sick. He was in Kinston, and he wasn't married. And so he got sick, and they brought him to my mother's house to care for. And he didn't never get up. And leave me and Alda to the house, and I was scared of the sick folk. And she tell me to leave me all the way [indistinct 00:39:52] put it on me and leave me to look at. And I was scared of the sick folk.	38:34
Kara Miles	Why were you scared of him?	40:01
Lucy Leary Dudley	I don't know. I don't know. I thought he was sick and couldn't do nothing. And he would tell me, he would say, "Come up here, come up here, baby. Come up here and fan me. Come here and fan me." They didn't have all these fans like got now. And my mother would make a fan. She'd cut out pasteboard and tell me to fan him. And I remember her telling me to fan him, and I would stand way off and try to fan. I don't know how come I was scared. I told my little granddaughter, I got one little great granddaughter. And then my son, my oldest son passed this last October, my oldest son. And he was sick, and his grandchild but my great grandchild, and he would tell his child, come tell me the child was scared of him.	40:07
Lucy Leary Dudley	And I said, "Well I can't fault her." I said, "Because I was scared of sick folks too when I was little." So I remember all Mamma's sisters. I just remember them. They weren't around them, though, because Pa moved so much. He didn't stay around. And so I didn't stay around to learn my aunts and uncles or nothing like that.	41:06
Kara Miles	Did any of your relatives live outside of North Carolina? Had any of them moved to other states?	41:39
Lucy Leary Dudley	Now my mother, all my mother's people is around Kinston. Ain't none of them down in Pitt County as I know of. Maybe down there some of them I don't know, but was Kinston where she was raised. Both her and Papa both were raised around Kinston. And they married, they moved off and didn't come back. So that's how come I reckon i didn't know none of my aunts and uncles.	41:59
Kara Miles	When you all moved around all the time, was it always like moving around Pitt County, or did you move to other places?	42:19
Lucy Leary Dudley	Everywhere he moved, he moved in Beaufort County and stayed in there some. That's the only county. Well he stayed in Craven County, but I was so small, I don't know much about that. But that was up around Clifton. We stayed in Craven County.	42:36
Kara Miles	Were there any differences that you remember between Beaufort and Pitt County?	42:49
Lucy Leary Dudley	I didn't know no different then, but Beaufort County, I know I was larger then. I remember he moving up there on the other side of Little Washington. He moved up there and stayed up there a while. I wanted to keep staying there, because I was getting up around teenage years. I wanted to stay up there, but he still didn't stay. He moved back in Pitt County.	42:53
Kara Miles	Tell me about your teenage years.	43:24
Lucy Leary Dudley	Hmm?	43:25
Kara Miles	Tell me about your teenage years. Did you used to court?	43:26
Lucy Leary Dudley	Well I courted some. That's how come I didn't want to move out of Beaufort County. I had kind of started picking up then, and I wanted to stay up there. I got acquainted with a lot of the people and went to church and went to school up there. And I had quite a bit of a lot of the girls and boys, so I wanted to stay up there. But that wasn't Papa's plan. He moved back in Pitt County, way out there near about four miles, five miles of Greenville and moved from Greenville down here where I'm at now. I mean my daddy moved down there. That's where I got married. Daddy moved back in Pitt County.	43:30
Kara Miles	How old were you when boys could start coming to see you?	44:18
Lucy Leary Dudley	I was about 15, because I remember my brother getting married. He got married. My older brother got married when I lived in Beaufort County. And his wife and I weren't much different in our age. She weren't but 16. I was 15, and I got married. And she got married, and she would tell me, "You out there playing, and somebody up here to see you, come up here to see you. You out there playing." I didn't care what she said. I kept on playing.	44:21
Kara Miles	Were there certain days that the boys could come see you, or could they come any day?	45:04
Lucy Leary Dudley	No, Wednesday night was a special night. That's what Mamma give us, Wednesday night.	45:08
Kara Miles	Go ahead.	45:17
Lucy Leary Dudley	Or Saturday, something like that. But Wednesday night was the [indistinct 00:45:26] time.	45:25
Kara Miles	And how late could they stay?	45:30
Lucy Leary Dudley	No longer than 9 o'clock. No, they didn't stay no longer than 9 o'clock. They stayed any longer, Papa or Mamma was moving around, know they're getting ready to leave, would've said something.	45:32
Kara Miles	Could a boy take you out? Could you go somewhere with a boy?	45:50
Lucy Leary Dudley	Well along when I was teenage, I didn't go out. I didn't go out. I would have a little party or something like that to the school. I'd go to that with a boy, but I didn't go nowhere else, no eat out, cook out and parties or nothing else. I didn't go to much of that. I went to the party to the school, and that's the only way I ever got with a boy.	46:04
Kara Miles	So a boy could come to your house and take you to the school.	46:30
Lucy Leary Dudley	Yeah, to the school, the school. And Mamma be sure one of the boys went with us, one of my brothers went there.	46:32
Kara Miles	One of your brothers had to go with you?	46:41
Lucy Leary Dudley	Yeah.	46:42
Kara Miles	Was this older or younger brother who would have to go with you?	46:49
Lucy Leary Dudley	It would always be my older. And after he got married, my older brother got married, then my next one would took me was my brother. And he'd be right there. "Mamma, I'm going." So that would satisfy her, if some of the brothers went with me.	46:55
Kara Miles	I bet you didn't like that, huh?	47:06
Lucy Leary Dudley	I didn't care about them, because they wouldn't say nothing.	47:08

Kara Miles	— aunts would they leave you alone? Would they go with you?	0:00
Lucy Leary Dudley	No. They didn't have nothing to do with me when I got to the school.	0:00
Kara Miles	Okay.	0:00
Lucy Leary Dudley	They all out fending for the themself. No, they didn't keep them [indistinct 00:00:15] or nothing, when they got ready to go, so he said she'd come to him and tell me, ready to go, or she can she can tell [indistinct 00:00:22] or something.	0:13
Kara Miles	How old were you when you got married?	0:29
Lucy Leary Dudley	I was 22 when I got married. I said I won't, I'll never get married. I told them, I said "I'm going to stay with Ma and Pa as long as they live." I wasn't gonna get married, no sir.	0:32
Kara Miles	Why didn't you want to get married?	0:46
Lucy Leary Dudley	Actually, so I don't know how come I didn't make up my mind. After a while, after I was full grown, I decided to get married. All my other sisters got married younger than I did. My sisters got married at 17, one got married at 18, but I said, "I ain't gonna get married. I don't care. Y'all get married if you want to. I ain't gonna get married." I didn't think I was gonna ever get married. But after a while, and I told my granddaughter here the other week, she ain't married neither. I told her, I said, "You can't find a young man, I said "Get you a second-hand nigger." I said, "That's what I got. A secondhand" and I had never been married.	0:49
Kara Miles	Your husband had been married before?	1:14
Lucy Leary Dudley	Yeah.	1:14
Kara Miles	His wife had died?	1:14
Lucy Leary Dudley	His wife died.	1:14
Kara Miles	Was he a lot older than you?	1:15
Lucy Leary Dudley	Yeah, he was older than I.	1:15
Kara Miles	How old was he when you got married?	1:15
Lucy Leary Dudley	He was about, I was like 22 and he was like 39.	1:15
Kara Miles	What made you marry him over anybody else?	1:15
Lucy Leary Dudley	I don't know. He out-talked me I reckon. For I had said I will not marry nobody, and I reckon he just out talked me. I think that must have been it, 'cause I had decided I wasn't gonna get married. But after I married him, he act just like I was one of his children. He was just as nice to me as he could be.	1:15
Kara Miles	Did you have a wedding?	2:38
Lucy Leary Dudley	No. We just went on to town in May and got married. I didn't want to do none of it nohow, so when I did decide I went right on.	2:48
Kara Miles	Well, after you got married, were you glad that you did?	3:04
Lucy Leary Dudley	I was glad I got married then. I wish I had gotten married two years before. I was satisfied.	3:08
Kara Miles	Because you said your husband had his own land and his own house and everything.	3:17
Lucy Leary Dudley	Yeah, his own home, everything. He had everything that a farmer would want. Everything. I didn't have no trouble with nothing about anything. He didn't want me to work nowhere but home. I still would go help folks in 'bacca, but he didn't want, he'd remind me, I'd come right straight back home when he turn out. You got to come on back home.	3:19
Kara Miles	Did you used to work on the farm with him?	3:54
Lucy Leary Dudley	Working on the farm and when putting in 'bacco time you know they ain't nothing else to do, then all this crop got [indistinct 00:04:07] then. Ain't no work much to do but put in 'bacco. So I'd help folks in 'bacco. He didn't want me to do it, but I tell him I wanted to, so he give way.	3:59
Kara Miles	Why did you want to?	4:25
Lucy Leary Dudley	I just wanted to be with the other folks talking, laughing.	4:25
Kara Miles	So was this on his farm or you would go back to where your parents were? Where would you [indistinct 00:04:38] —	4:34
Lucy Leary Dudley	I'd go to the next neighbor.	4:38
Kara Miles	Okay.	4:41
Lucy Leary Dudley	To the next neighbor, White. Sometimes I'd work with the White, with the next neighbor White folks and I worked with the Colored. Worked with both. They would come and ask. They didn't hardly ever ask him either 'cause the folks knew he was like that. He didn't want me to work.	4:41
Kara Miles	How had you met him?	5:04
Lucy Leary Dudley	I met him through the church house and he started coming out there to see me. He was driving. He had a car and my daddy didn't have one and I would go to church. I could go to church and go to meetings. Meeting like association and union meetings there. He'd take me around like that. I thanked Ma and Pa both the day I got married because they felt like I was marrying somebody would take care of me.	5:07
Kara Miles	Sounds like he made life a lot easier for you.	5:46
Lucy Leary Dudley	I did.	5:49
Kara Miles	What you had.	5:49
Lucy Leary Dudley	I sure did. He was as nice to me as he was his children.	5:49
Kara Miles	Did his have children from his first marriage?	5:59
Lucy Leary Dudley	Yeah. But they didn't bother me and they didn't seem to have nothing to do with it.	6:01
Kara Miles	Did they live with you all?	6:12
Lucy Leary Dudley	Went right on with me. Right on to whatever I was doing. They would tel me sometimes, "Miss [indistinct 00:06:20] if you hadn't want so anxious to work, Pa wouldn't say nothing to us." I said, "Well, so and so got to be done. Let's go." And they'd go on with me.	6:13
Kara Miles	Did you have your own children?	6:36
Lucy Leary Dudley	I didn't have but two. I had two children [indistinct 00:06:42]. He done had his number. He done had his number. I went right in there and then to the big family then. I didn't have but two children. Both of them were boys. I guess that's all I know.	6:38
Kara Miles	Huh?	6:55
Lucy Leary Dudley	I already asked what did I know now. Far as I can go out there.	6:55
Kara Miles	Can you answer some more questions if I ask them?	6:55
Lucy Leary Dudley	I don't know. If I know and I —	7:18
Kara Miles	Okay. Well I want to ask you a few more questions then. What would happen when people were sick? Were there like home remedies? Did people know how to use roots or different things to make people well?	7:21
Lucy Leary Dudley	— Well, my mother was like that. We used to tell momma, she was like, "Hey doctor." Course she could fix up something or another and even give it to a baby. Now your baby would get better. We told all the people it's like, "Hey doctor."	7:33
Kara Miles	Do you remember any of her remedies?	7:56
Lucy Leary Dudley	You used to couldn't ask the old folks much. You ask them and they tell you "That's none of your business." And so I couldn't think of much of nothing. My sister could think, she would say what momma had done better than I could. I don't know how come it but, I just couldn't remember like she could.	7:59
Kara Miles	Okay. Do you ever remember back when you were younger, ever seeing the Ku Klux Klan around here? Around where you lived?	8:24
Lucy Leary Dudley	No. I remember seeing one or two. That's all I remember seeing with them old high hats on their heads. I remember seeing some of them like that but they didn't bother us, but they may bothered somebody.	8:31
Kara Miles	Did you ever hear them bothering anyone?	8:31
Lucy Leary Dudley	My husband's sister's son, they burned a cross in his yard.	8:31
Kara Miles	Why? Do you know why they did that?	8:31
Lucy Leary Dudley	That was their job against anybody, they didn't appreciate somebody, I don't know why they do that. They burned a cross and his yard. They sure did. And had old quilts and things wrapped around that cross so that it'd burn and my husband's sister's son, but we didn't ever have it in our yard.	8:31
Kara Miles	Do you remember any Black people getting lynched or getting killed by White people?	9:57
Lucy Leary Dudley	No I don't remember nothing.	10:06
Kara Miles	Okay. Okay. Tell me what school did you go to?	10:12
Lucy Leary Dudley	The first school I went to was Hattie's Chapel that was out here going on 80. That was the first school I went to and the next school I went to was in Buford County when my daddy moved down in Buford. It was cooler. It was in Shady Grove. They used it for a school and church both for it.	10:24
Kara Miles	Okay.	10:42
Lucy Leary Dudley	They used it on big farm so they used it for a church and a school both. And the next schoolhouse I went to was right up here where I was living at, almost where I'm living at now. Calico. That was the last school I went to.	10:42
Kara Miles	What grade did you go to in school?	11:11
Lucy Leary Dudley	I didn't get no higher than seven.	11:12
Kara Miles	Okay. Why did you stop in the seventh? Did your parents make you stop?	11:16
Lucy Leary Dudley	I got married then.	11:37
Kara Miles	Oh that's when you got married. Okay. That's a good reason I guess. Did you like school?	11:38
Lucy Leary Dudley	Yeah I liked school. I went to school just as long as I could. Because you know I was 22 when I got married and it was right after they were getting me from going to school. But they don't go to school like that now. They are in a higher grade. But long then I was so late going to start with.	11:40
Kara Miles	Did you like your teachers?	12:01
Lucy Leary Dudley	I [indistinct 00:12:04]. I don't remember. Every teacher I went to I didn't like. A Miss Sattergreen was one teacher and Estelle Rusha was one, and Carrie Clark, I went to her a little while, for about 3 months. They were teaching in an old house because they didn't start teaching until way up in the session and they were building that school there so they used that house until they could get decided where to build a school. Carrie Clark, and I think that's the last school, that school in Calico then I got married.	12:12
Kara Miles	While you were still in school, were you able to go to school every day? Or did you have to stay out some days and work on the farm?	13:10
Lucy Leary Dudley	Yeah. We had to stay out and cut down corn stalk and, beat down corn stalk. They had a stick like a bat and beat down the corn stalk. Beat down the corn stalk and a hoe, to chop down the corn stalk. That's the way we do it and done that after I got married.	13:12
Kara Miles	So while you were in school would you go like a couple of days each week or were there certain weeks or months that you didn't go? How did you?	13:38
Lucy Leary Dudley	I went every day about I went. I had to cut down them stalks and knock down them corn stalks. We had to do that because momma and daddy didn't have nothing to cut them down with like they got now. You had to cut then down with a hoe.	13:48
Kara Miles	Did any of your brothers and sisters go further in school?	14:11
Lucy Leary Dudley	I didn't have but one my youngest sister she went to Kenston College.	14:14
Kara Miles	Okay.	14:14
Lucy Leary Dudley	She's the only one that went to college.	14:14
Kara Miles	I wanted to ask you about church. What church did you go to?	14:14
Lucy Leary Dudley	Huh?	14:14
Kara Miles	What church did you go to?	14:14
Lucy Leary Dudley	Well I went to Hattie. That was the first school I went to and church too. Hattie. And I would go to it. I went to Shady Grove where it was used for a church and school too in Buford.	14:14
Kara Miles	Okay.	14:14
Lucy Leary Dudley	I went to that one. And the other school I went to was Calico.	14:14
Kara Miles	Was this Baptist churches? What kind of church were these?	14:14
Lucy Leary Dudley	Hattie's was a Primitive Baptist and Shady Grove was Missionary Baptist, and so when I moved down here to go to Calico I went to Calico school, and Primitive and we'd have together at the same school.	15:33
Kara Miles	Okay. Did your parents go to church like every Sunday?	15:48
Lucy Leary Dudley	No. They didn't go to church but once a month.	15:52
Kara Miles	Okay. Did church only meet once a month.	15:57
Lucy Leary Dudley	When I started going to church they weren't meeting but once a month.	15:58
Kara Miles	Okay. So you would go to church once a month, and what would you do the other Sundays?	16:06
Lucy Leary Dudley	Play. Run around and play or go to somebody's house. People, they'd go visit [indistinct 00:16:21] then, they don't visit much now, they go to church.	16:11
Kara Miles	Did you go to Sunday School?	16:27
Lucy Leary Dudley	Yeah I went to Sunday School. I liked that.	16:33
Kara Miles	Yeah? What did you like about Sunday School?	16:33
Lucy Leary Dudley	I like it because you could ask questions. I would actually ask questions, "What was this" and "What was that" and if the deacon couldn't tell us we would ask. If he didn't tell us or if he didn't tell it right we didn't know it. If we ask, "What this means" "What that means".	16:38
Kara Miles	Did Sunday school meet every Sunday or did that only meet once a month too?	16:58
Lucy Leary Dudley	No. Sunday school was every Sunday. When they moved out to Calico we went to one and went to prayer meeting in the evening to one church and the morning to the other church.	17:01
Kara Miles	Okay. So you'd go to Sunday school every Sunday?	17:14
Lucy Leary Dudley	We would go to Sunday school every Sunday. Not every Sunday because I know some Sundays we'd miss 'cause my husband, he would drive. He was the only one in the family that was driving, after I got married. He was the only one in the family that was driving so some Sundays he didn't feel like going he said, so we stayed home that Sunday and just visit somebody's house. Or walk. We did walk to school a time or two.	17:26
Kara Miles	Did you like going to church?	17:56
Lucy Leary Dudley	Yeah, I liked that.	18:08
Kara Miles	What did you like about church?	18:08
Lucy Leary Dudley	I like it 'cause I enjoyed myself and meet your friends. What I didn't understand I'd come back and ask questions. We all know what they were talking about and knew how to ask. They all would say, "You ask too many questions."	18:08
Kara Miles	Do you remember your baptism? Were you baptized? Do you remember that?	18:32
Lucy Leary Dudley	Yeah I remember that. I remember the preacher baptized me, Walt Gardner, baptized me I think about 13, he had baptized the same time. We were baptized in a creek. We didn't have no pool in no church long then. We were baptized in a creek.	18:43
Kara Miles	How old were you when you were baptized?	18:47
Lucy Leary Dudley	I was 12. I said I wouldn't join until I was 12 years old so I wouldn't have no sin. You know I didn't know what I was doing. No, I didn't know. I said [indistinct 00:19:22] for 12 years old he was talking with his [inaudible 00:19:25], I said, "I'm going to join the church when I get 12 years old, I won't have no sin." I didn't know no better.	19:17
Kara Miles	Were baptisms done once a year? When were baptisms done?	19:42
Lucy Leary Dudley	That was anytime. Anytime them boys joined the church, if he wanted to be baptized and the next week they would baptize them or the next month. Whatever time he wanted to be baptized.	19:48
Kara Miles	And how did you let the church know that you wanted to be baptized?	20:00
Lucy Leary Dudley	Well, I called out "John" when you're [Indistinct 00:20:09] John and they set a day and said everybody meet at such and such hour, and the preacher would go in the water up ahead and all the candidates take up with your hands and walk in the water. So if anybody started to fall they could hold him so everybody would take up with their hands and go down in the water. I loved to go to a baptism.	20:06
Kara Miles	Why? Tell me about them. What did you like about them?	20:42
Lucy Leary Dudley	I loved to see them dip them folks in that there water. And then see and then they'll come up and they would just shake their head. They didn't know if it was right or no, but they baptized. They shouldn't be joining a church baptized unless you know you're right with the Lord but you don't know how I feel and I don't know what you feel about that so we had to take it.	20:47
Kara Miles	So when you were raised to be baptized, would you stand up in church one Sunday and say, "I'm ready. I want to be baptized". How would you let them know that you were ready to be baptized?	21:29
Lucy Leary Dudley	Well I took the seat. They set the seat out there and after I take the seat, they know I was wanting John and then they set the date.	21:41
Kara Miles	Oh because it has a special seat.	21:49
Lucy Leary Dudley	A chair, set a chair out there. They do now but they used to set a bench.	21:52
Kara Miles	Okay. Is that the mourners bench?	22:00
Lucy Leary Dudley	Yeah, what they call it a mourner bench.	22:04
Kara Miles	And so you would go sit down there if you were there? If you were ready you would go sit down there?	22:05
Lucy Leary Dudley	Yeah, go sit down there.	22:10
Kara Miles	And that's how they would know. Did you have to dress in a certain color or anything when you went to the creek?	22:11
Lucy Leary Dudley	Yeah, you always put on your stocking, don't go in no shoes with your stockings on.	22:20
Kara Miles	Okay.	22:24
Lucy Leary Dudley	And your [indistinct 00:22:31] they wore gloves. Men though they put on they pants. You know some everyday pants because everything going to get wet.	22:26
Kara Miles	Yes. Did you have wear like a white dress or could you wear any kind dress you wanted to?	22:40
Lucy Leary Dudley	No we didn't wear no white.	22:44
Kara Miles	Okay.	22:45
Lucy Leary Dudley	Just whatever clothes we had on we'd go in like that.	22:49
Kara Miles	Okay. Did you have something over your head?	22:54
Lucy Leary Dudley	They tie us head up.	22:55
Kara Miles	In a towel?	22:58
Lucy Leary Dudley	In a towel or any other piece of material you know you could tie.	22:59
Kara Miles	Were baptisms big events? Did lots of people come to watch baptisms?	23:08
Lucy Leary Dudley	Yeah a lot of folks go to a baptisms if they know it. Last baptism I went to folks were show up shouting her in the water. And one was in Greenville it was colored by, a cypress, a Christian Church color, a Christian Church [indistinct 00:23:41] I think. And when we went and they were baptized that day, I know someone was shouting in the water.	23:12
Kara Miles	Okay. Do you remember revivals? Did your church used to have revivals?	23:48
Lucy Leary Dudley	Yeah. They'd have a whole week revival.	24:01
Kara Miles	Whole week? What would they do during that week?	24:06
Lucy Leary Dudley	Preachers preach and we would have a preacher that'd preach that whole week to raise money. You know you got to have some money. If they didn't got to have it, they raised some.	24:09
Kara Miles	The last thing I want to ask you about is organizations. Did you ever join any fraternal organizations or anything like that? Any social organizations? Clubs? Lodges? Anything like that?	24:37
Lucy Leary Dudley	What was that? Oh like a club? I don't belong, I do belong to a Senior Citizens Club and I had a home what they called Home Mission Club and they had that in church.	25:08
Kara Miles	What was that club?	25:15
Lucy Leary Dudley	Home Mission.	25:16
Kara Miles	Okay. Is that a church organization?	25:18
Lucy Leary Dudley	That was members of the church.	25:19
Kara Miles	Okay. All right. Well, I'm out of questions. Is there anything I didn't ask you about that you think is important to tell me about this period of time that we talked about?	25:26
Lucy Leary Dudley	I don't know nothing else either.	25:40
Kara Miles	Anything that you think people today, that children today don't know about that you think they should know about that period?	25:49
Lucy Leary Dudley	There's one thing that people don't pay no chance, don't seem like to me they don't pay much attention to it as they used to, a girl gets a certain again she ought to be particular about how she bathes, especially at certain times but seem like it used to people would pay a whole lot of attention to that but seem like now, they don't care about it, like going in your water, do anything they want to do at that time. But they used to be particular about that. The mother and father. The mother would. But they get time at it. I don't know how they fail but they goes along with it.	26:01
Kara Miles	Okay. Well I thank you for talking to me.	26:55
Lucy Leary Dudley	Well, you're sure welcome.	27:09

Item Info

Title:

Lucy Dudley interview recording, 1993 August 03

Date:

August 3, 1993

Creator:

Dudley, Lucy Leary

Contributor:

Miles, Kara Giselle

Description:

Name: Lucy Leary Dudley; Date of birth: 1903-12-09; Place of birth: Pitt Co., NC; Occupation(s): agriculture; housewife; Residence: Vanceboro, NC
Informant ID: 303; Interviewed by: Kara Miles.

Occupation:

Location:

Format:

Language:

English

Digital Collection:

Behind the Veil

Source Collection:

Behind the Veil: Documenting African American Life in the Jim Crow South interviews, photographs, and project records, circa 1864-2011, bulk 1990-2004

Series:

Related Resources:

See below

Provenance:

The David M. Rubenstein Rare Book and Manuscript Library acquired the Records of the Behind the Veil Oral History Project from the Duke University Center for Documentary Studies in 1997, 1998, 2000, and 2002.

Rights:

Limited Re-Use

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Interview number: 688
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Lucy Dudley interview recording, 1993 August 03

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1. Lucy Dudley administrative file, 1993

John Hope Franklin Research Center

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John Hope Franklin Research Center

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