Carolyn Bland interview recording, 1993 July 26

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Chris Stewart	Ma'am, could I ask you to state your name and address so that I can get a voice level?	0:02
Carolyn Moore Bland	My name is Carolyn Moore Bland. I live at 1615 Hazel Avenue, New Bern, North Carolina.	0:08
Chris Stewart	Wonderful. This is fine. Okay. I'd like to start by asking you if you've always lived here in New Bern.	0:17
Carolyn Moore Bland	I've lived most of my life here except for the time I went away to college, three years in which I worked at United Negro College Fund in New York and almost a year working with the Department of Treasury, internal revenue in Washington DC so most of my life has been here.	0:22
Chris Stewart	Were you born here?	0:45
Carolyn Moore Bland	Yes, I was born here.	0:47
Chris Stewart	Were your parents born here?	0:47
Carolyn Moore Bland	My parents were born here also, and their parents were born in the area. My mother's father and his mother were from Family Co County, but that was at that time part of Craven County. But my grandfather was born into slavery. And his mother came with him and several of his sisters supposedly from Tyrell County. I'm researching that now for our family reunion, and they settled in the Family Co County area of North Carolina. They are shown on the 1870 census for that time, and my grandfather had three wives. My mother is the product of the third marriage.	0:50
Chris Stewart	Did your grandfather own his land in Family Co County?	1:39
Carolyn Moore Bland	His mother did. His mother did. And year before that, we had the family reunion picnic on the site of her home, which is now occupied by one of her great-great granddaughters. So we had our banquet at the Sheraton here and we had relatives from New York and New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Maryland, Georgia, South Carolina, and as far west as California, Tacoma, Washington. So we returned to the site of her home. Of course, since that time, one of her son's daughters and her daughter built a home there, and it's not far from the Neuse River, so it was a beautiful area for a picnic and a pig picking.	1:43
Chris Stewart	How wonderful. Do you remember the house that you grew up in?	2:39
Carolyn Moore Bland	Oh, sure. It's still standing. We were born in the house at 303 Jones Street. 303 Jones Street here in New Bern, not far from Clinton Chapel AM Zion Church, that's our church, and all of us were born there. My mother was attended by Reverend, a Dr. William Munford, a local doctor.	2:46
Chris Stewart	William.	3:07
Carolyn Moore Bland	Munford, M-U-N-F-O-R-D. There, as I recall, there was not a hospital for Blacks here at the time.	3:07
Chris Stewart	Were there any midwives? Did you know?	3:25
Carolyn Moore Bland	Yes, there were midwives and I recall them assisting a number of people with birth in the neighborhood, but my mother was attended by a doctor.	3:27
Chris Stewart	Were there other Black doctors?	3:41
Carolyn Moore Bland	Yes, it was Dr. Martin, William Martin, Dr. Fisher, I think he was H. W. Fisher and Dr. Mann. It's Dr. William Mann, Williams seemed to been quite popular. There's Dr. Munford, Dr. Martin, Dr. Fish and Dr. Mann.	3:44
Chris Stewart	When, and there was an emergency of some sort, you said there wasn't a Black hospital. Would the Black community then have to go to a White hospital?	4:11
Carolyn Moore Bland	I am not sure at what point they used the basement of St. Luke's Hospital. I say that because in 1938, when I was almost eight years old, my aunt who lived with us contracted the throat disease, strep throat, and a culture she ran, I know she ran at high temperature. Dr. Martin attended her, he did a throat culture and it had to be sent to Raleigh to be identified, and so he could be told how to treat it, but before it got back from Raleigh, she was dead. Now, I don't know if she could have been treated at St. Luke's Hospital in the basement where Blacks were.	4:22
Carolyn Moore Bland	I remember passing the hospital and seeing as you walk down Broad Street, you could see people in their beds in the basement. But I don't know if that hospital was available at the time I was born or not. And if not, it was my father and mother chose to have births at home. But that is an instance that I felt, of course, they didn't have laboratory resources here anyway at the hospital, but that was an instance where by the time they identified the illness, she was dead.	5:15
Chris Stewart	At what period do you recall knowing that there that Black patients were in the basement? You said you didn't know.	5:55
Carolyn Moore Bland	I don't know what year the hospital was opened, made available to Black people, but I recall as a little girl walking past the hospital with my mom, and I must have been rather young because she could look down in through the windows and see the patients in the bed. And that's basement level. So I would imagine I must have been around three or four years old	6:11
Chris Stewart	For how long was this the facility for?	6:36
Carolyn Moore Bland	Until the late '30s or early '40s when Reverend R. I. Johnson got together a number of people in Open Good Shepherds Hospital on West Street now.	6:41
Chris Stewart	And this was staffed by-	7:00
Carolyn Moore Bland	Blacks and White doctors, White doctors attended patients there.	7:04
Chris Stewart	Was this a missionary hospital?	7:09
Carolyn Moore Bland	No, it was part of the Episcopal Diocese of North Carolina.	7:12
Chris Stewart	Okay. Do you know anything about how Reverend Johnson raised money or was able to—	7:16
Carolyn Moore Bland	They had fundraisers around New Burn. I don't remember exactly what they were now, but I do recall some efforts, dinners or something being done to raise money for the Good Shepherd Hospital, but I think it was mostly financed by the Episcopal Diocese of North Carolina.	7:31
Chris Stewart	Did local builders or contractors, Black builders, Black contractors help to build?	7:52
Carolyn Moore Bland	That I don't remember because I was young. We passed there going to and from school. And I'm not sure, I don't remember who helped to construct that.	7:59
Chris Stewart	What do you remember about your neighborhood growing up?	8:11
Carolyn Moore Bland	Before we leave the hospital, I had a tons ectomy there and my mother was there, was a patient there, and both of these were in the '40s, and we just thought it was such a pretty hospital. It was so nice and clean, of course, they had no air conditioning at the time, but it appeared to be cool and comfortable in there anyway, so it was just a nice place to be ill in.	8:15
Chris Stewart	If you're going to be ill.	8:47
Carolyn Moore Bland	Yeah. If you had to be ill.	8:48
Chris Stewart	Did you ever hear about any comparison between the facilities available at Good Shepherd Hospital-	8:54
Carolyn Moore Bland	No, because during those times, people didn't think about the facilities that were denied to us. Now, maybe some of the medical staff may have said, had this been St. Luke, we would've had this or that, but I never heard anything like that. It was sort of an acceptance of that way of life because there were a number of people who worked at St. Luke, of course, in the kitchen, a part of the custodial staff, and I can imagine when they became ill, they had still had to be hospitalized in Good Shepherd Hospital. Yeah.	9:00
Chris Stewart	I'd like to ask you about your neighborhood and what you remember about your neighborhood.	9:44
Carolyn Moore Bland	Well, most of us did not have a lot of toys. We received a few tours at Christmas. We played a lot of games of our own making, hopscotch, we used to play bottle jacks. My dad had a grocery store, so we used to get the bottle caps from the soda, bottle pop as it was called at that time, bottle pop. I think that's what they were trying to say. But we would get that, and that would be the same as the Jacks for Ball and Jacks. And then we would use a rock in place of the ball. But very few people had money to buy games with. My brother, there were four of us, and I was next to my brother in age. We had an older sister, a brother, myself, and then our younger sister. But we used to get the [indistinct 00:10:54] out bags from my dad's store and the potatoes or whatever, shake them out, and we would open them up because she could rip them apart and then fastened them together with nails and make our little tent with some of the other neighborhood kids.	9:49
Carolyn Moore Bland	And we'd sort of have a little sideshow and things like that. My sister and I would take the screens when my mother was not using them in the wintertime probably, and we would section off a little area and play house with that. We made our little mud cakes and had our grass dolls, that type of thing. And we did not live that far from the church. So that was a focal point for a lot of the activities, Easter egg hunts, Barack Christian Endeavor, Sunday School, we were in church most of the day. And when we did get a movie here for Black people. I don't recall ever attending the movie downtown when Black sat upstairs, I heard my father talk about it, but I never recalled going there. When we went to the movie, there was always one for Blacks uptown.	11:12
Chris Stewart	What was the name of that?	12:12
Carolyn Moore Bland	I think it was The Palace and the Ritz.	12:15
Chris Stewart	You had two then?	12:18
Carolyn Moore Bland	Well, no, one closed, and a larger one opened, but I think it was the Palace movie first, and they showed all of the popular movies. I remember standing in line a long time to see Gone With the Wind. I remember seeing Cabin in the Sky with Lena Horn, that was quite popular. On Fridays we went to the movies. As I said, my dad had a grocery store, and you could get in the movie for a dime and a folder from a headache powder. At that time that's what people used instead of bottled aspirin, the powders. And you had Goody BC, Stand Back and all of those brands, and most of the time people would want to buy a dose rather than the package.	12:19
Carolyn Moore Bland	So I think that cost a nickel. So they would buy one dose of the headache powder, which my father opened up the package and sold them one. But we used the rappers, so to speak, of the headache powders along with the dime to get in the movie. And of course, we could choose whatever cookies we wanted to eat from his store. And I think I was almost 12 years old before I ever had popcorn I sodas in the movie because we always took our treats from his store. Yeah. Squirrel nuts, things like that.	13:21
Chris Stewart	Where was his store located?	14:04
Carolyn Moore Bland	It was on Polluck Street at the foot of Jones and Liberty. Liberty Street was named a German Street, but during the war they changed it to Liberty Street. So it was located on Polluck Street at the back, at the foot of that.	14:05
Chris Stewart	Who was his clientele?	14:26
Carolyn Moore Bland	They were mostly Blacks. Now that was an area which Whites lived in the neighborhood, and they patronized the store for candies, sodas, maybe bread and that type of thing, but no heavy shopping cigarettes. But most of the customers were Black people and he had deliveries on bicycles. And some of the more affluent Blacks, as I would say, would call their orders in and the food was would be delivered, groceries would be delivered to them.	14:31
Chris Stewart	Was he involved in any businessman's organizations here in New Bern?	15:09
Carolyn Moore Bland	Well, he was president of the first Civic League for Blacks here. My father's name was George Azel, A-Z-E-L, Moore. My brother's a junior, but my dad never used senior. He was just George A. Moore. And his store was George A. Moore and Son Grocery Store, G. A. Moore and Son Grocery Store. He was president of the first Civic League here in New Bern. And their purpose at that time was one of the major projects, I should say, was to build a civic center or recreational center for Blacks, which they started and it's located at Cedar and Bern streets now. The city later took over that and completed it. And years later when they built two new recreation centers, the Omega Sci-Fi Fraternity took over the building, leased it from the city, and they used it for the public now. And so as far as the business is concerned, he was president of that, but he was involved with the ELTs and with the Masons and with the Shriners and the Consistory.	15:14
Chris Stewart	Do ou know what degree Mason he was?	16:37
Carolyn Moore Bland	He was 33rd degree.	16:39
Chris Stewart	Very impressive.	16:43
Carolyn Moore Bland	Yeah. Well, he attended the Scottish Wright meetings in Washington also. He traveled a lot with the church and the Masons and the ELTs. He was grand treasurer of the Masons for about 30 some years and he was treasurer of the AM Zion Church Conference forum 28 or 30 years.	16:44
Chris Stewart	Wow. The state conference?	17:07
Carolyn Moore Bland	No, our AM Zion church conference here in this area that covered Kinston, New Bern, Moorehead, Washington, Rocky Mountain, those areas.	17:10
Chris Stewart	Was your mother an Eastern Star?	17:22
Carolyn Moore Bland	Yes, she was. My mother and father both belonged to the same Eastern Star chapter. I don't know who joined first, but they were both members of Queen Esther chapter number seven here at New Bern, and they attended the state meetings together. When we were younger my mother didn't travel that much with him, but after we were older and adults, she often attended the meetings with them.	17:24
Chris Stewart	Did your mother work as well?	17:52
Carolyn Moore Bland	No, my mother worked only a brief time as I recalled Chris, she worked at Brad's Laundry. She wanted one of those fur coats, and the coat was only about $45. At Copeland Smith department store my dad said he couldn't afford it, so she got a job working at the laundry in the evening after we came home. And I think she worked there about two weeks before he told us she could get a coat. He didn't want her to work because his mother worked when he was growing up, and he always wanted her to be home when we left in the morning and when we came back in the evening.	17:54
Chris Stewart	What was the name of the laundry, do you recall?	18:36
Carolyn Moore Bland	Braddy's Laundry, B-R-A-D-D-Y-S, 'S.	18:38
Chris Stewart	Did she get the coat?	18:45
Carolyn Moore Bland	She got the coat, yes. He told her she could stop working. She get her coat. And we thought it was the most beautiful coat. It was an imitation fur. Well, we thought it was just gorgeous. I was so proud of her and her coat.	18:47
Chris Stewart	Oh, I bet. What kinds of things did you do for fun as a child?	19:04
Carolyn Moore Bland	When the circus came to town, we got to go again, I consider that an advantage. My father having a grocery store, oftentimes he put the posters in his window and helped to distribute them in the Black community so he got passes to the circus for us.	19:12
Chris Stewart	Where did the circus—it's pitch 10—	19:32
Carolyn Moore Bland	Okay, it may be about four or five blocks if that far from his store. It appeared that far since I was so little. But I think it was in the vicinity of the Fort Todd area, DeGraffenried Park area. And the circuses would've the big parades down Polluck Street at that time with the animals and the clowns and the girls in their pretty dresses. But Polluck Street was the main street then for parades. So we would go to the circus. There were what you called medicine shows. I can't remember the man's name now, but I think it was a Dr. Edwards from Kinston who would come selling medicine, linemen or what have you. And they would pitch a tent and they would have the dancing girls and their pretty costumes and these were Black performers. And the men would tell jokes and they would have a little band. So of course there were no seats, you just stood around and watched that and it was free and that was quite entertaining. But I remember when Silas Greens—	19:35
Chris Stewart	You have such a wonderful memory.	21:00
Carolyn Moore Bland	I came to New Bern. Yeah, he came to New Bern and my father let my mother take us, and Blacks had to sit in segregated seating at the time that.	21:02
Chris Stewart	Ho was it segregated?	21:15
Carolyn Moore Bland	As I recalled, the Whites sat in the center and I think the Blacks sat on the sides there, or the Blacks all sat on one side, but I know most of the people sitting in the center were White. They may have had the more expensive seats in the center with the Whites in front and the Blacks in the back. But I know we sat on the side and there were separate entrances also for—	21:18
Chris Stewart	Okay. Do you remember any of the attractions outside of the screen?	21:48
Carolyn Moore Bland	The usual people dancing and singing and telling jokes, musical instruments. But they were so more or less professionals and you didn't see those people in costumes like that around this area so it was always a big thing. My aunt that lived with us to whom I told you earlier tied with strep throat taught in Jones County. She played the piano so they often had parties at the house where they played the piano. My father and mother had a vic stroller that you turn the handle. We used to sneak into the living room and play that. But there were a lot of social activities at our house when certain dignitaries, as I would refer to them, came to town. My father was involved with a lot of things. The grand exalted ruler, Dr. J. Finley Wilson visited our house. And of course being in town, a lot of people had to come.	21:55
Carolyn Moore Bland	And my mother and father did a lot of entertaining and they usually stayed there because hotel accommodations were not available to Blacks, which meant that somebody had to give up their bedroom and double up, so the company could have the mom and dads nice bedroom and they slept in ours. And we had a three-bedroom house with the three girls sharing one room and my brother sharing another. When the bishops came and their wives, AM Zion Church bishops, they often stayed with us also. And it was always a very impressive thing for me to see these people in beautiful cars. These were affluent Blacks that traveled around. The ladies wore beautiful fur coats and had nice colognes, nice hairdos. And the men wore expensive suits and smoked us cigarettes and we never smelled the lights settled down here. I'm sure they were imported, and they were always so very well groomed and talked a lot about their travels.	23:04
Chris Stewart	Well, you're speaking of these people as almost as a child I mean, there seems to be such a, I don't know, respect or almost awe.	24:18
Carolyn Moore Bland	Well, it was because this was the poor community and you didn't see people dressed to like that often. And this was the bishop of the church coming to conduct the annual conference off for a special meeting, so everybody was going to come to hear him or see him. And of course, my mother had special help to come in and help prepare the meals or help clean at the time. But as I said, I was in awe to be around a peep out and see these people. And oftentimes they brought little games and things for us as children or candy. And one bishop, Bishop Mrs. James W. Brown traveled in Africa. That was part of his assignment. So they often brought slides, which they showed at the church and pictures of the AM Zion Church missions in Africa and in Liberia over there. And they drove nice cars.	24:33
Carolyn Moore Bland	Nobody had a car like that down here. So it was just a very inspiring time to know there were people who lived like that. And they always spoke, had a tremendous command of English and shared a lot of things that we'd never have an opportunity to see out here. And I remember one of the bishops had his golden celebrated Bishop Woods, James Woods celebrated his golden anniversary and in each conference they had a ceremony and I was a floral, little floral bear in his golden anniversary celebration here at our church, Clinton Chapel Church, I got this. So that was very exciting as I got to wear a new dress, have a special dress made for that. And the reception was on the lawn of my mother and father's home and they had lights all around there. And I know now it was set up just as any other catered affair would be set up with tables and the paper tablecloths and the little ice cream dishes and plates and things like that.	25:35
Carolyn Moore Bland	So our home was the center of a lot of activities and we more or less took you for granted, Chris. And it was only after I grew up and compared notes with other people living other places that I realized how fortunate we were to be involved like that. And I guess I like to entertain now because that's the way I grew up formally or informally. And my mother had a set of dishes which she got with stamps, I think they were [indistinct 00:27:32] stamps or some, but they were green cut glass dishes. And those were the special dishes she used for a company with the plates and the platter, the serving dishes. You see them today in a deep rose of brownish pink, but these were green and they were very special. Those were the company dishes until their 25th anniversary and my father gave her a set of China at that time, and she died in '74. He died in '56.	26:50
Carolyn Moore Bland	But I have her China. My sisters got the sterling silver and divided it among them and I have divided that China between my daughter and my sister's oldest daughter. Now that they both had their own homes, it was a service for eight so each of them have a series for four, but that was the company dishes.	28:05
Chris Stewart	Did your parents give you instructions as to how to behave around adults?	28:32
Carolyn Moore Bland	Well, yes and no. We knew we had to be quieter. We knew we had to be respectful and courteous. Thank you. Yes, thank you. Yes, ma'am. No sir. And if we wanted to say something, we entered the room and we waited until we were spoken to. We never darted in and took charge. When company came also, I took music for Mr. Robert Simmons at the Catholic school for Blacks. So my brother played the clarinet, and when company came, we always had to entertain for the company, which we hated. But I would be called upon to play a solo, play something for the guest, Carolyn and my brother would have to perform. My sister Francis never sang a blade or did anything else. So she took music and never learned. She never liked it, but she usually recited a poem where Renee did something that they had memorized in school, but our parents always had us on display to do something.	28:40
Carolyn Moore Bland	And so we grew up participating in things like that. And the church, we had programs for Children's Day, Easter Day. We had the junior choir, we had Easter Cantatas for the children, the young people of the church. We had hikes as they would call them, may walks where we would just gather at the church and walk up what is now Country Club Road. I don't know how far we went, but after we got there we would have Kool-Aid and sandwiches and vanilla wafers or cookies or something like that. So that was an activity for us.	29:56
Chris Stewart	Who made decisions in your family, your mother or your father say, decisions regarding discipline?	30:37
Carolyn Moore Bland	Without a doubt my father, only when he was not around did my mother make decisions. But my father, he was major factor. I remember we always had to bring our report cards to him and he looked at them and signed them. Though my mother helped us with the homework because he was at the grocery store until about eight o'clock and then he would go to one of his meetings, church meetings, large meetings, chapter meetings. When he was not at a meeting, he was out socializing, I would say, and getting a haircut and shave at [indistinct 00:31:21] barbershop. I never ever saw my father shave himself at home. He always went to the barbershop.	30:41
Chris Stewart	We're interviewing—	31:28
Carolyn Moore Bland	Harry Wade. Okay. Yes. Her uncle and father were friends of my parents. And so he always had a shave out there. I never ever saw shaving equipment in my house growing up. So I just thought everybody else did that.	31:30
Chris Stewart	Sure, sure. Who disciplines the children?	31:51
Carolyn Moore Bland	My mother most of the time. And she threatened us with my father. My father had several cars. The first one I remembered, must have been a 1928 or '29, it may have been early Stu Baker that was no longer operative, that was in the backyard of his grocery store. But it was a long, what looked like a touring car with a big steering wheel and we used to play in it. But then he got a 1934 Plymouth and that stayed in the garage and we used to go in there and play in there. And one night, one day, we turned the lights on and left them on. And somebody told him about it. So naturally he wanted to know who played in the car and of course we and every child in town was afraid of my father. All he'd have to do is look at us and we were shuttering our boots in church, all of our friends, I'm sorry, I can't come.	31:59
Carolyn Moore Bland	So we knew we were going to get a whipping. So it was in the summer. My younger sister and I patted ourselves with blankets under the bedspread. That's the only time my father ever disciplined us and he sat down in a chair and whipped us with his belt. And I'd already told her the minute the first lick hit, scream loud and then he won't whip us too much more and it worked. Well, we didn't go in the car anymore. But my brother and I were always into things, very mischievous. And it didn't bother me to get a whipping because I knew the little sting, my mother whipped us with a small strap or switch, and it would only last a little while then you could do what you wanted to do. So without a doubt, I was the one that was punished most of the time growing up. But it was not severe punishment. No abuse. A lot of threats, but not much of anything.	33:04
Chris Stewart	Were there any other people in your neighborhood who disciplined you or other children?	34:11
Carolyn Moore Bland	Well, they would say, you'd better get out of the street I'll tell your parents that type of thing. And anywhere we went in New Bern, people knew who we were. In high school our home ec teacher would often send us to the store to buy sewing materials and pick certain items from the food store. We might dot around the block somewhere out of the way but it wasn't too long before somebody came by that would've known who we were. So we couldn't afford to play hooky too much because we'd be seen and caught, everybody knew us. So that sort of kept us in line. My brother drove that 1934 Plymouth to school. He graduated in '47 and he was driving at the school his junior and senior year. And it was the funniest thing. We really thought we had status because we could drive to school, but the backseat was out of it. And when it rained, I had to hold the umbrella over him in the car because it leaked. But we had the most fun with that car.	34:14
Chris Stewart	But it was a car.	35:30
Carolyn Moore Bland	It was a car, that's right. And he finally wrecked it, had a little wreck with it downtown. So that was the end of that. But it was funny. It wasn't funny at the time, we really had status because we had a car going school. Growing up, I must say my father worked as a butler in Red Bank, New Jersey so a lot of the habits and ways of the people he worked for, he insisted on us following. My mother worked as a domestic. I live in domestic in New York, Tuckahoe, I believe she said it was. And I have letters. My father wrote to my mother when they were planning their wedding, and he was telling her how many invitations to have printed up and how much they should be.	35:31
Carolyn Moore Bland	And I think it was about 100 for $12 at the time. And he told her to be sure to get the at-home cards. So they announced a marriage, they invited people to the reception and they had the at-home cards so that people would know when they could come to call on them. But going among the things, when we closed my mother's house and emptied her house, we found some of those letters. He bought her a piano, which was still functional up until a few years ago, but she never quite learned to play on it. We took lessons on it, but the way to learn to play the piano was to do that by a correspondence similar to what people do now when they put the keyboard playing and number the keys and the chart and play that way.	36:29
Carolyn Moore Bland	But it was an old piano that had the roles. It was a self playing piano, that's what they called it. And we had so much fun playing that, some of those old songs when the moon comes over the mountains and solitude. And we just would play that thing and pump it as hard as we could so it would play real fast. Another lady in the neighborhood had an old pump organ that you operated by pumping the pedals and the music would come out of it. So I'd go over there and play sometimes. And sometimes the people in the neighborhood would just ask me to come over and play for them. Some of the church hymns or something. [Indistinct 00:38:30] Growing up we played hop scotch. We made a lot of our games.	37:29
Carolyn Moore Bland	We went for walks on Sunday afternoon and the walks, that was just something to do. We'd walked down to the waterfront on East Front Street and watched the cars go over the bridge. At that time, right near our home was McCarthy's Goldfish Pond. That was at the intersection of Queen and Jones Street and he had some of the most beautiful goldfish there. To me the pond was large, but it had to be very small because the train also went down Queen Street and to be in the center of that area now the pond probably was about half the size of this room, but we thought it was very large and it had very pretty goldfish in there. And we'd go walk up there some Sunday afternoons and look there.	38:37
Chris Stewart	Were there places in town that were considered by your parents to be bad places in places that you just should not go?	39:34
Carolyn Moore Bland	Yes. On the backside of our street, our neighborhood, there were a number of what we call now liquor houses. And on our way to and from school, we would pass some of these houses. I didn't know what they were at the time, but every time you pass them, there was a big vacant room and he had a jukebox in it. They called it a piccolo. And you often got this odor, this aroma, I know now later that it was raw liquor [indistinct 00:40:17], whatever they call it, that illegal liquor. And on Saturdays, late evenings, if you pass there, you often saw White men going in the back and socializing with the Black women there. And these were women of ill repute, you just didn't get involved with. And if they had children, you didn't play with them. You just didn't bother those people at all.	39:43
Carolyn Moore Bland	But there were a number of people, I shouldn't say a number, but there were several people on outside of town who the women were known to have patronized the White men and often had children for them. My father's sister, Bessie Hobbs Martin, who died several years ago, used to tell us a lot of stories about things that went on. And she said there was a story of a White man from a very prominent family who spent more time with his Black girlfriend and her children than he did at home. And he died at the lady's house. And she sent for his brother who sent for the White undertaker. And apparently he died at night and they removed his body and took it to the funeral home and put it in a car and took it to his house. And then the next morning, the funeral home called at his wife's home and went upstairs and removed his body. But he actually died in at the Black girlfriend's house.	40:45
Chris Stewart	Did your aunt tell you anything about what the Black community was thinking of this?	41:59
Carolyn Moore Bland	Well, a lot of people didn't like that, but it was one of those things where you said, well, she goes with the White man or the insurance man comes and stays a long time. But we were never allowed to visit those people. And children who were born of those relationships were usually teased a lot. Yes, they were mulattos and it was very unfair. I don't remember teasing anyone, but I probably did too. But they didn't belong on either side of the track. And it was difficult for people like that growing up.	42:04
Carolyn Moore Bland	Yeah. I had a classmate, she was supposed to have been adopted, but the rumor was that she was fathered, one of the nuns at the Catholic Church had given birth to her and she was placed in adoption home and these people in New Bern adopted her. But she was obviously of mixed racial heritage and I think she was confused a lot. She didn't know she was adopted. Her father was very fair. Her adoptive father was very fair, but not fair enough for her to look like that. And a lot of kids teased her in high school. She went to college and in that second year, she decided to join the convent and she stayed in the convent until it was time for her to take her final vows and she got out. So she went in the Air Force and she married a pilot, Pan Am Pilot. Her father died. Her mother visited her a lot. But I often wondered if she was quote unquote passing on the other side of the United States.	42:50
Chris Stewart	Did you hear or know of people who were passing?	44:07
Carolyn Moore Bland	That's about the only person I wondered if they were, I didn't know of anybody personally. My aunt also told me there was a well known White lawyer here in New Bern who could not because of the law, marry his wife, the Black woman he loved. So he never married at all, but he gave his sons his name and when he died, he left them property also. I guess that's similar to the story we hear about Thomas Jefferson, but she used to talk—in fact, she said, the man who owns O'marks building down there now where Belts was, it was restored to O'marks is the grandfather, the lady who lives here in New Bern now.	44:11
Carolyn Moore Bland	She's very fair and has sandy hair. So a lot of those things went on just as they did during slavery and I don't know of it happening in this community, but oftentimes I've heard that this is the only way some people could make a living. And the White wife was aware of it and was nothing she could do. The Black husband, if he was going to get a job and stay employed was nothing he could do. The Black woman, if she was going to keep her family together, she had to submit also. So those things, I never heard of anybody talk about it with any degree of criticism. They more or less shied away from those people.	45:01
Chris Stewart	Just maintained the distance.	45:55
Carolyn Moore Bland	Yes, they maintained the distance.	45:56
Chris Stewart	When did you begin going to school and which school did you attend?	46:01
Carolyn Moore Bland	I graduated from West Street High School in 1948.	46:05
Chris Stewart	West Street?	46:09
Carolyn Moore Bland	West Street High School. All 12 grades were in little three or four buildings, they're together. And my oldest sister and I attended Living Stone College in Salisbury, which it was the only college 100% Black owned and Black operated by the AM Zion Church. My brother George Junior and my younger sister Renee, attended North Carolina Central, North Carolina College. For Negroes, it was called—	46:10

Carolyn Moore Bland	My father and mother stressed education, and it was understood that we would go to college. Now, how my father managed it on his income as a grocer, I don't know, but I know he received stipends for various offices he held and, I guess, borrowing here and there. And he was very instrumental in seeing that a lot of Black students in this area got scholarships to go to Livingstone College off financial help because he knew Dr. Shepherd, who was President of North Carolina Central because of the Masons. Dr. Shepherd was a personal friend because he was Grand Master of the Masons for the state of North Carolina, and my father was Grand Treasurer.	0:03
Carolyn Moore Bland	Here in New Bern, also, Christie, this doesn't relate to my family, but Dr. Shepherd's wife was Anna Day Shepherd. They had a daughter named Annie Day Shepherd, who married I.H. Smith. She became Anna Day Shepherd-Smith. She had a daughter named Anna Day Smith, who married Eugene Donaldson, and I think she's listed on yours, Anne Donaldson. They named their daughter Anna Day Donaldson. So there's about four or five of them. However, Mrs. Shepherd was the daughter of Thomas Day, who was a well known cabinet furniture maker here in North Carolina. And the style of furniture he made is very popular. The Winston-Salem chapter of Delta Sigma, their sorority, did a collection, acquired a number of pieces, and that furniture is in the museum in Raleigh. But the great-granddaughter of Thomas Day lives here in New Bern now.	0:55
Chris Stewart	You're a member of the Deltas, I assume?	2:06
Carolyn Moore Bland	Yes, yes. In fact, my oldest sister, Francis Winona Moore, was instrumental in getting it organized here, and she was its charter president.	2:08
Chris Stewart	Did you join at Livingstone, or did you join—	2:22
Carolyn Moore Bland	Yes, I did. She was a charter member of the chapter there.	2:25
Chris Stewart	I see.	2:28
Carolyn Moore Bland	So I was influenced before I ever left home to be a Delta.	2:29
Chris Stewart	That was my next question. Why a Delta? And you—	2:34
Carolyn Moore Bland	Yeah. Because she was a Delta. Yes, she was a Delta.	2:37
Chris Stewart	What do you think it was about that organization? There were several sororities to choose from. And what do you think it was about—	2:39
Carolyn Moore Bland	Well, my sister told me when I went to school not to indicate what my interest was because chapter members change from one year to the other. They graduate. A new group comes in. And she say, "You may decide that you want to be something else, join another group." So one thing she told me, "Don't lend your clothes. Don't lend money unless you plan to give it away. And don't let anybody know what your interest is until after you've been approached." But the sorors of that sorority on the campus seemed to have been young ladies who were always on the honor roll, the dean's list, and they carried themselves in a way and put on projects and activities that I was impressed with. And the fact that I was Frankie Moore's sister helped too because she was one of the charter members there. She graduated in '47, and I came there. I went there in '48. So there were a number of them who still knew her.	2:51
Chris Stewart	Right. Right. What qualities did the Delta chapter look for in women—	4:03
Carolyn Moore Bland	Academic achievement, personality, respect, reputation. But years later, I guess, being on a college campus, we were expected to participate in the vesper and the Sunday School and a number of religious activities. And again, being a school owned by the AME Zion Church, our religion was the hub of all of activities, so participation in the church was also important. But academic average was stressed. That was the most important thing.	4:09
Chris Stewart	One of the students on the team is a Delta.	4:51
Carolyn Moore Bland	Is she?	5:00
Chris Stewart	She's not here yet.	5:00
Carolyn Moore Bland	She's going to be arriving tomorrow. So you won't see her tonight, but maybe on another.	5:00
Carolyn Moore Bland	The Deltas are the oldest Black sorority here in New Bern because they were formed in 1953. The AKAs, I think, came along in 1957 or '58. People who, as the Deltas did also, wish to affiliate had to travel out of town to become active with other chapters until they established their chapter here. I traveled with my sister after I moved back here. We went to chapter establishments in Wilson for Delta chapters and in Kinston and in Greenville. But that was a social at the same time. Deltas didn't give dances. The fraternities gave a lot of dances. So that was a social activity here too.	5:00
Chris Stewart	What do you see the differences between, say, Deltas and other sororities and in particular AKAs and—	6:03
Carolyn Moore Bland	Deltas are more public service-oriented. In fact, I think it was 8 or 12 of our 22 founders were members of AKA who pulled out and founded the sorority because the AKAs were interested in tea parties, garden parties and social activities, and they were concerned with voter's rights for women and things of that nature. And over the years, the program has been identified with the civil rights movement activities to foster the improvement of human quality of life or different quality of lives in the communities that we serve.	6:07
Chris Stewart	You're talking about the Deltas?	7:01
Carolyn Moore Bland	Yes, the Deltas. And we have a student achievement program in which we try to recognize Black students for the simple reason that I don't care how good you are, you never quite get to be number one. And those who are number two and number three need to be encouraged and recognize those persons who strive to make the dean's list. The honor roll it's called. And we refurbished the community room at the Omega Center. It needs to be redone again now. That was in 1980. We outfitted the conference room at United Senior Services.	7:02
Carolyn Moore Bland	We were among the first to give recognition banquet for senior citizens in the community. Well, it was a luncheon or dinner down at the Holiday Inn. So those are the kinds of things we've tried to get involved with along with trying to work with persons who are trying to return to the working world as an older woman, having dropped out of school and trying to get back in school now. That's one of our focuses. And strengthening the family, that's another project that we tried to envelop.	7:44
Chris Stewart	When you were growing up, did your family vote?	8:32
Carolyn Moore Bland	Yes. I never knew of any problem to vote. My father would always tell my mother, "Come on, we have to go to the polls and vote." But I never knew of a problem anybody in New Bern had. But I do remember my father talking to people in church, reminding them that they needed to vote. And it seems to me—and I'm not sure, Chris, if I heard him say this. I read about it. There were certain portions of the Constitution they had to read in order to qualify for it. But that I think I recall them saying. But that was when I was quite small. I never heard too much about it, but I never knew of anyone having a problem here.	8:35
Chris Stewart	Can we talk a little bit. We skipped over high school, and I'd like to talk a little bit about that. Do you remember any of your teachers from high school?	9:23
Carolyn Moore Bland	I remembered all of my teachers.	9:31
Chris Stewart	Some of them are on this list.	9:33
Carolyn Moore Bland	Yes. Mrs. Rivers, Mrs. Blanche Rivers, is still living. And she is the wife of the men who founded River's Funeral Home, now River's Morgan Funeral Home. She taught us English in 12th grade, and she insisted on memory work like the Canterbury Tales, the prologue to the Canterbury Tales. The Shakespearean works. We had to read Silas Marner in the ninth grade. Every class, we had some heavy literature work. But reading was stressed and performance in front of the class and memory work. That was all stressed. And I remembered in high school, we didn't have any lab facilities at all. It was just a room with a couple of small items in it, nothing compared now. As far as segregation is concerned, there was nothing compared, I'm sure, to what they had at the White school.	9:34
Chris Stewart	Did you talk about that? Did students talk about that amongst theirselves?	10:45
Carolyn Moore Bland	Not at that time. We accepted it as a way of life. Oftentimes we had books. When the books were issued to us, they had already been used by the White schools, and they were passed down to us after they discarded them. But you did the best for what you had. You were expected to excel. This was stressed. We had belonged to the New Homemakers of America. Mrs. Carrie Fisher was a home ec teacher, and they had several different cooking units in there. One was a gas stove with the cabinet and all of that. I believe there was a wood and coal stove. I don't think she used it too much. My parents had a wood and coal stove up until the early '50s. And there was an electric stove, and there was a kerosene stove. Those were the three. We had sewing projects. We had to learn how to sew.	10:49
Carolyn Moore Bland	And I never liked that. I had to sew blouse., And I think I took that blouse apart and resewed it so many times. It was absolutely filthy by the time I got through with it. But she made us do it over again. But one of the things I remembered was the home ec building also consisted of a living room and a bedroom. We had to learn how to make a bed properly. We were divided into groups, and our group would be on to entertain. You would come, and you would be the company. And we had to engage in small talk, in conversation and offer you refreshments and serve the little refreshments, cookies and punch and whatever it was and greet you at the door and see you off at the door. She would grade us on that.	11:52
Carolyn Moore Bland	Of course, we did a lot of that at home, but I never paid any attention to that. She made us stand in reception lines to see how we were supposed to do that and greeting people and smiling and engaging, as I said, in small talk just to be hospitable. And those are the things people don't have today, and they don't teach it at all. But that was a requirement. And she talked to us also about the menses and our periods and things that a lot of our parents weren't uncomfortable in talking to us about at all. And she also warned us about being too flirtatious with the boys, that they were built differently than we were and could not contain their emotions.	12:47
Chris Stewart	What a wonderful woman.	13:35
Carolyn Moore Bland	She did. She told us this.	13:36
Chris Stewart	Took really good care.	13:37
Carolyn Moore Bland	And she also said the girls who sneaked out and would sneak around with the boys at night, when the boys got ready to marry, they were married to ones who'd stayed home. And those were the kinds of things people told you and shared with you at that time to keep you on the straight and narrow.	13:39
Chris Stewart	Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. It sounds like at least in this case, this woman went over and above—	13:55
Carolyn Moore Bland	She did.	14:04
Chris Stewart	—because of the limitations of the school and education. Did all the teachers—did you see this as a pattern that teachers went the extra?	14:05
Carolyn Moore Bland	They did. They did. I remember even in the fourth grade, we had an operator, Midnight Summers Dream, and I was a fairy in there. And Ms. Buchanan had us to come to the house. Most of the teachers lived in rooming. They had rooms in homes. Now, they were private homes. They were not rooming houses, but they had rooms in homes. And I had to go there and be fitted for my little costume made of, I call it cheesecloth, a little dress and the crate paper wings and all of that. And we were just so excited to be there. But we had plays. We were expected to memorize and perform. This gave us self-confidence. In seventh grade, another favorite teacher—well, Mrs. Buchanan made us memorize the 19th Psalm, and we had to say that as part of Devotion every day.	14:20
Carolyn Moore Bland	The Bible was part of the daily devotion for everybody in the chapel exercises at that time. But in the seventh grade, we had a story hour, and I think it was probably Friday afternoons. Mrs. O'Hara, who was the wife of Roy O'Hara, would read all of the tales to us from Alibaba and not Midsummer Night's Dream, but there were a number of them. And she would review what she had read to us last week. And some people would go to sleep. She'd say, "Wake her up, she needs to listen." But most of us were just thrilled to hear her read to us. So the story hour was not in the library because we had just a small library in the high school, but the teachers made all of these things possible.	15:21
Carolyn Moore Bland	I took music in the second grade under Mrs. Willetta Johnson. She taught us to dance. Because I took music, the Catholic school always had a music recital in the spring, and we wore dresses, gowns. We was right on through high school. I don't play that much now, but I got to have a new gown every year. And I remember Copeland Smith's department store usually had the best selection of gowns, and $14 or $15 was the limit that I could pay for a gown. And my mom would let me pick out what I wanted, and then she would go down the next day and get it if it was okay. If it didn't meet her requirements, then she picked out something else. But I couldn't wear the same gown every year, so I got to get new gowns. Most of them were cheapies, but I thought they were beautiful at the time.	16:16
Chris Stewart	Was the Catholic school a Black school as well?	17:20
Carolyn Moore Bland	It was a Black school. See, this was St. Joseph's Catholic School. And Father Julian was the priest there over the school.	17:21
Chris Stewart	Where was this located?	17:32
Carolyn Moore Bland	It was on Burn Street between Broad and Pollock. Part of the building is there—	17:33
Carolyn Moore Bland	Uh-huh. But I took music there, and I think it was 50 cents a week for an hour's lesson. And Sister Saint, she was our music teacher, and she was very gentle and kind and very patient. And she just had me playing everything there was in the book. And if I had to play some of those songs now, I couldn't, but so many people in New Bern took music. That was part of the culture. You were expected to take music. You had to play. Most of the homes had pianos. You were expected to participate in the Girl Scouts. I was not the Girl Scout leader. I had forgotten what the student position is called. And we had plays at Eagan Hall, which was the Catholic school. We visited Cherry Point. I remember that, remember visiting Cherry Point. Our troop leaders took us down in their cars. And I remember seeing German prisoners of war there in the black and White uniforms. We had heard about the German sub being found off the coast of North Carolina—	17:41
Carolyn Moore Bland	Yes. Uh-huh. And I remember we met in a large auditorium, and the Black Girl Scout sat on one side and the White girl scout on another side. And this official greeted us and told us all about the base. I have tried to remember how old I was at that time, but I think I was 13 or 14 years old. Then we had lunch, but the lunch was in a segregated facility. But they served us sandwiches and sodas and cookies and things like that, but the Black Girl Scouts ate separately from the Whites. I don't know where they ate. I didn't see them. But we knew that was happening. We weren't very comfortable with it, but there was nothing we could do about it at all.	19:01
Carolyn Moore Bland	And our leaders and our parents tried to make us feel as positive as we could about the situation. I realize now they did. There were things that were said and done. And I remember one day, a drunken White man and his drunken girlfriend came down the street walking. My mother had flowers outside of the house, and she said, "Oh, that's a pretty flower." And he said, "You want it?" And she said, "Yes, but you're not going to bother that lady's flower." And he said words like, "Hell, I will," and he just reached and grabbed the flower and looked at my mother. And my mother just turned her head and looked the other way. She didn't say anything at all. Of course, in today's time and even then, some people would've had the nerve to say something, but she didn't. But looking back, I knew there were times from facial expressions that they were pained about what was happening or what they were having to experience.	19:51
Chris Stewart	Mm-hmm. Did you ever know of anybody who broke the rules of segregation? Or did you ever hear about the consequences of breaking rules of segregation, what could happen to you or friends or acquaintances?	20:58
Carolyn Moore Bland	I really don't know. I do remember my mother saying, "Don't bother that. That's just for the Whites. Colored people can't do that, aren't supposed to use that," but I'm trying to remember in what situations. I know there were hats, that there were stores that Black people could not try on hats. They could not try them on at all. And then they would let you try them on if you put tissue in the hat. I remember seeing those signs in some stores, but I wasn't affected being a little girl. I didn't wear a hat anyway.	21:16
Carolyn Moore Bland	My mother had two sisters and several brothers who lived in New York. They used to send boxes of clothing down to us, some of their leftover clothing and some new things. So maybe this is where she got a lot of her hats because my father couldn't afford. There weren't too many people who could afford to buy hats and to buy new coats and things like that. I don't think there was a problem trying on other clothes and shoes. But with the hats, they did not want Blacks to try on the hats unless they bought it. If you tried it on, I guess you would have to buy it, but I can't remember of anything happening to anyone. I don't remember of any lynchings or killings because somebody crossed over or stepped over the line.	21:59
Carolyn Moore Bland	I do recall when I was in middle school, junior high school, there was a Ben Franklin Five and Dime store and Five Points, which was the main street for Blacks, the main area. And this White woman who was supposed to be the store owner's sister, a little scrawny woman with a long nose, very thin, worked in that place. And I understand she and a Black man left here together and moved to New York and got married because they were carrying on an affair. And he had a wife. I don't know if she had a husband or not, but someone said she said that she would never give him up. But they moved away. I don't know if they ever got married or what, but my parents didn't usually talk about those things around us.	22:59
Chris Stewart	So how did you find out that—	24:00
Carolyn Moore Bland	Because people were talking about it. There was always a kid who sat around hearing other people. Adults used to sit on the porches in the summer and talk. On Sunday afternoons, they would have company and talk, and maybe we would be in another room or on the back playing. I heard my dad discussing a lot of things with my mother at night when he would come in about what was going on in the community or the church or whatever. We would be in bed asleep.	24:02
Carolyn Moore Bland	My father and mother always said, "Regardless of what you hear here or see here, you do not discuss it outside of this home," because there would be people coming in talking about church matters or community matters. So we were not allowed to discuss that. And my father and mother never had alcohol. They never indulged in alcohol. But in later years, he might have a pint for some people who would be visiting to have Coke and rum, a bourbon or something like that. And he would splurge and buy a pint of liquor for us when we came home from the holidays at school so we would have something to serve our friends. And they never drank coffee.	24:37
Chris Stewart	Really?	25:24
Carolyn Moore Bland	No.	25:25
Chris Stewart	Wow.	25:25
Carolyn Moore Bland	Only when they had company to visit for breakfast would she made coffee.	25:26
Chris Stewart	Oh, I just had a question—I guess it'll come back to me. I'd like to go back to Livingstone or go forward to Livingstone, I guess, and ask you about campus life there.	25:35
Carolyn Moore Bland	Now, Salisbury also, that was during the segregated time. Now, we did go to the movies upstairs in the White theaters in Salisbury. There was a separate entrance. You went to the ticket office and bought your ticket. Then you went to the side door and mounted the stairs for the movie. People in Salisbury were generally very warm toward the campus because it was a college there, and they were glad to have a college. And I think there was a pretty good rapport with the college officials. They had a large farm. A lot of the students worked while they were there waiting tables, and I never saw the farm. I just heard about it. Usually, when I first went to Livingstone, I rode the train from New Bern to Salisbury, and that was about a 12-hour ride. You could drive there now in about four hours.	25:56
Chris Stewart	How did you prepare for riding the train?	27:00
Carolyn Moore Bland	Well, of course, we had to ride in a segregated car. And I had a large trunk that had belonged to my father's brother, and everything was packed in there. Everything. I think my second year, I got a suitcase, but everything traveled in that large trunk. Bed linens, winter clothes. Of course, nobody had that much, personal items and all of that. And it was put on the train. They would put it on a cart and then take the cart up to the train and put it on there. When we got to Salisbury, I checked it, of course. They would take it off there. And taxi driver, I don't know how they got those trucks in the back of those cars. Well, they were larger during the time. And they would take you to the campus, and the dean of women would call some of the boys to take it upstairs for you.	27:03
Carolyn Moore Bland	But we were required to say grace before all of our meals, as I said, go to Sunday School and vesper. And she stressed acting like Livingstone ladies and told us what she told us when we were going home, that we should not have a lot of bags and clutter. And she inspected us as we left to go home. And oftentimes we traveled with hats on, but she said she would say, "Livingstone girls don't do that." Of course, they told us, "Don't bring any greasy bags back." Later, when I think the trains stopped running, and I rode the bus. Of course, that was riding in the back of the bus, and you could not get off to eat in the restaurants. So many times, my mother would pack a lunch for me, but she said, "You just don't have greasy bags on the bus." You would pack your lunch in a little shoebox and put that inside a bag, and it would be neat.	28:02
Carolyn Moore Bland	And whenever we had dignitaries visiting the camp, they told us. They had lyceum concerts. We had to go, and she told us we were expected to wear a little Sunday best dress. And again, we were taught how to mingle around and talk with people at the reception. "Girls, you have to mingle," and she would call you by name if she saw you acting ugly. And there were a few people who were hard-nosed. When I went to school, Christine, I realized how much my mother and father had put into rearing me because, otherwise, a lot of things I did not know. And I knew other people who did those things that I would never have done at home, so I could appreciate once I left home the efforts my parents took in rearing us and training us because, as I said, there were a lot of people who didn't have that. And I knew it.	29:11
Chris Stewart	This may be redundant, but what kind of values do you think that your mother and father instilled in you to take you into adulthood?	30:17
Carolyn Moore Bland	Well, learning to tell the truth because the Lord always knew the truth. God knew. If you didn't tell Him, He knew. And to take care of what belonged to you. Keep your area clean and keep your things nice. I knew there was not a lot of money for me going to school, so the things I had I had to take care of. And a lot of them were hand-me-down from my sister that my mother made over and tried to fix it for me. Also, because we worked in my father's grocery store, we were expected to just work forever for nothing simply because he was taking care of us. So I guess in that, you learned to give eight hours for eight hours pay, a full of measure.	30:25
Carolyn Moore Bland	But respect and courtesy were instilled in us. I remember my mother and father saying, "It doesn't cost you anything to speak because God gave you the breath, but it can cost you a lot if you don't." If you don't speak to a person, that can be held against you later. And it is very true. It's so simple to say, "Hello, Chris," and smile and go on rather than to ignore you. And you say, "Well, that little girl ignored me. I'm going to remember that." And you went to select somebody to be on a program or go and you said, "Well, she doesn't have the personality." So courtesy and respect definitely were stressed.	31:18
Chris Stewart	Mm-hmm. What did you receive your degree in?	32:06
Carolyn Moore Bland	Business education.	32:08
Chris Stewart	Okay.	32:10
Carolyn Moore Bland	Yeah. I never taught a day in my life, but that's what it was in. Yeah. So I worked as a secretary. I was secretary to the field director at United Negro College Fund for which Livingstone was one of the member colleges. My dad did not want me to go to New York to work. He wanted me to teach school here, but I was excited to be offered that. The top of my class and in business. I didn't do student teaching. I taught freshman, first-year students at Livingstone, first-year typing and a basic general business. So my senior year, that's what I— And I got paid for it, $20 a month. But that's what I did instead of my student teaching.	32:10
Chris Stewart	How was New York different from—	33:07
Carolyn Moore Bland	It was really exciting, and I guess you had something like the buddy system. I had a number of classmates who lived there, some cousins who were at Howard and other schools, and they were concerned that I got to see Radio City Hall and places like that. Plus, because I was there from the South living with my aunt, Mr. Trent, who was executive director, would always ask me what were my plans for the weekend, what was I going to do. On Monday morning, "What did you do?" And he said, "Well, Mrs. Trenton and I live in New Rochelle. We'd love to have you come up." But the number of people he knew invited me to different things. And my parents had friends there that always invited me. So I was never bored for anything. I was always being asked to go somewhere and attend church with some of my parents' friends that'd have me over for dinner.	33:07
Chris Stewart	How exciting.	34:05
Carolyn Moore Bland	My brother was stationed in—I don't know how he ended at Camp Kilmer because that's an army camp and he was Air Force. But he would come over on weekends, and we would take in a lot of things. So it was nothing like it is now. I think the drug problem was just beginning to surface in some places. But I saw the movie Malcolm X and I could identify Smalls Paradise and the number of the clubs there, the Apollo. And it was just an exciting time to live there., But I realized having lived in a segregated South, I was not in New York long before I realized New York was segregated.	34:05
Chris Stewart	Can you talk—	34:54
Carolyn Moore Bland	They did not have signs, but they lived in different neighborhoods. The United Negro College Fund was located on 22 East 54th Street between Fifth Avenue and Madison Avenue, down the corner from the St. Patrick's Cathedral, across the street from the English Embassy. And so that was a very elite area. Chief Justice Waddell's daughter was very instrumental in getting that property for them. She had an office up on the third floor that was very elegant. The elevators took these well-to-do White women straight up to her floor, and her office was even better than Mr. Trent's.	34:54
Carolyn Moore Bland	And she would send for him Chauncey Waddell. This was Chief Justice Hugh's daughter, Chauncey Waddell. And he would come up and meet these people, and I found out these people were interested in doing something and having a charity for their little Ts in Westchester County. And they always wanted a Black president of one of the colleges, the two of them, to put in an appearance. But they raised a lot of money. But I asked, "Why is it no Black people work in that part, that area in the women's division?" And they had an elegant kitchen with a silver service up there for coffee and all of these things.	35:46
Carolyn Moore Bland	And Mr. Trent explained to me, also, they had a fundraising company out Chicago, Marts and Lundy it was called, to do the professional fundraising, which didn't make sense to me. Why do you pay people to raise money for you? And all of us were part of the same workforce, but their secretaries were paid much more than we were. And I asked one day, "Why? What was the difference?" And he explained that in many areas of the South and in some areas of the North, a Black person could never get in the front door to raise money.	36:29
Carolyn Moore Bland	And a lot of people feel that they were contributing to a segregated society, segregated educational system to contribute to the United Negro College Fund. So he said, "Whatever their purpose is, we need the money." And we have a large number of contributors in the South, and they will give to Marts and Lundy's White representative who's in town, and I'd like for you to help this college here. And they felt they were contributing to a segregated education system. And in New York, there were not enough Blacks graduating in the upper levels of the colleges in New York to even get into any of the training programs. So the college fund was very instrumental in getting the brighter students from the colleges to get started in the training programs.	37:10
Carolyn Moore Bland	I knew Time Life people were involved in a lot of them. And when they had these meetings, they had them at the nicer places downtown, but they also had an uptown committee for raising money predominantly in the Black community. But it was a known fact. Black people didn't have the money. And rather, the concept of a United Negro College Fund was the forerunner of United Way. But if 37 colleges could band together, then their opportunities for raising money would be greater, and the monies would be distributed for buildings. And rotating teachers are going out to the foundations and asking for money, the Ford Foundation and this foundation, the Reynolds—	38:06
Carolyn Moore Bland	Yes. And you see, through the college fund, a lot of those foundations donated to buildings on the campuses, you see, and music equipment library. Andrew Carnegie, I think, gave most of the libraries on the Black campuses there. So this was the type of thing that was promoted through the college fund. But he explained to me that there were many places that Black people could not go if they wanted to. I know for a fact, Christine, being secretary to the field director, Mr. Titus, who was Black also, traveled around to the different cities to encouraged the fundraising activities. And when I made reservations for him any place, Boston, Philadelphia, it was Randy Titus, the return address 22 East 54th Street. If I put United Negro College Fund in there, they had no rooms available. That I found out. This was in 1952, '53, '54.	39:09
Carolyn Moore Bland	I was working at the college fund when the Brown versus Board of Education decision came down, and they said that this would become a two-way street. There would be Black students going to White schools, and the goal of the college fund would be to improve the quality of education. So it also would attract White students. But I had a coworker who lived in Yonkers, New York, and she and her husband felt that was the palace of the world. They had two small children, a boy and a girl, and they needed a large apartment.	40:22
Carolyn Moore Bland	And she took off from work one day, and her husband going through the newspaper ads to find another apartment. And they walked up to this apartment, and the lady said that she didn't have the vacancy. The apartment had been rented. So they walked down the street and got in their car and were trying to decide where next they should look. And a car pulled up. White people got out. They went in there, and they obviously were looking for the place because they had the newspaper there and checking the address. And she invited them in, and Jo was so crushed because she did not believe that it happened. And I told her, at least in the South, the signs were up.	41:02
Carolyn Moore Bland	Many times you went in restaurants, and you were put in the back, over in the corner. There was a place on Madison Avenue that we went for lunch. It was quite popular. They served chicken and waffles. I've forgotten the name of the place now. Having grown up in the South, I saw immediately what was going on. Nobody else knew it. All of the waitresses were Black, but they were fair complexion, coffee-colored people. And they wore the cute little uniforms with the little aprons. All of the waiters were jet Black men, and that's no coincidence. You hire Black person. You're going to have a light complexion woman and a dark complexion woman. But all of the men were Jet Black. And I said to the people I had lunch with one day, I said, "Why did they do this?" "You just read a lot of things into this because you're—"I said, "But you notice this. Why is it they don't have any brown skin men here?"	41:46
Carolyn Moore Bland	And of course, we were working in a very elite section of New York, and nobody showed any discrimination as far as luncheon where you would sit and eat. When we would go into Saks Fifth Avenue, Lord and Taylors, sometimes we'd go there on lunch hour to look. And I said, "Why is it you don't have any Black clerks here in the store?" The only Blacks you saw were people warehouse people or elevator operators. See? And they had never noticed this. I rode the bus from 151st Street down to 44th Street. And as you got downtown, you got 59th Street. Most of the Blacks were off the bus by that time, and a few of us left to go on downtown. And when I boarded the bus in the evening, it was predominantly White. And after I got up around Columbus Circle, some of those places, 80th Street, then the only people getting on the bus and going uptown we're Black or either Hispanics.	42:56
Chris Stewart	Can you talk about more specifically, are you suggesting that this is where people lived or worked, that they were working in specific places as well as living in specific places?	44:22
Carolyn Moore Bland	Yes, they were. They were.	44:34
Chris Stewart	I just want to make—	44:36
Carolyn Moore Bland	They were, yes. See, the Blacks lived downtown, but they worked downtown, 125th Street, which was the shopping mecca for the Black community. Most of those places had Black people working in them, but they didn't own them. And this was the big thing with the congressman. What's his name now? He's dead. But he was censured. He was a minister. Adam Clayton Powell. We are making all of this money. Then why can't we own some of the businesses also?	44:37
Carolyn Moore Bland	But one interesting experience I had was one of my coworkers, she was working with Marts and Lundy, this firm, and she was going to New York University at night. She was taking a class in sociology or something. She and her husband lived out on Long Island. Now, I was among the last persons to come to work there. And she asked me one evening if I would like to—she invited, said she'd like me to go home and have dinner with them one evening, and they would take me back.	45:14
Carolyn Moore Bland	So I said, "Well, that sounds very nice. I'll let you know." So she said, "Well, let me know preferably on Friday so we don't have to be rushed. And we'll take you back, and we'll get to see Harlem at the same time." Well, I knew right away she felt she'd be safe in Harlem if I were along, so that was the end of that. I was always busy, but I asked some of the others, "Has Jo ever invited you home," and they were surprised. So I said, "Well, I guess she wants to see what I'm like because I'm a Black college graduate," and I guess maybe I was going to be the subject of her thesis or something. I don't know. But I never accepted it. But I saw a lot of things that people who lived there didn't see.	45:48
Chris Stewart	Why do you think you saw them?	46:37
Carolyn Moore Bland	Because I was accustomed to the segregated South. As I said, the signs were up.	46:41

Item Info

Title:

Carolyn Bland interview recording, 1993 July 26

Date:

July 26, 1993

Creator:

Bland, Carolyn Moore

Contributor:

Stewart, Chris M.

Description:

Name: Carolyn Moore Bland; Date of birth: 1930-08-16; Place of birth: New Bern, NC; Occupation(s): clerical; managerial; Residence: New Bern, NC
Informant ID: 296; Interviewed by: Chris Stewart.

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Language:

English

Digital Collection:

Behind the Veil

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Behind the Veil: Documenting African American Life in the Jim Crow South interviews, photographs, and project records, circa 1864-2011, bulk 1990-2004

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The David M. Rubenstein Rare Book and Manuscript Library acquired the Records of the Behind the Veil Oral History Project from the Duke University Center for Documentary Studies in 1997, 1998, 2000, and 2002.

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Limited Re-Use

CC BY-NC 4.0

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Copyright for content created by the Behind the Veil project is held by Duke University and made available to the public using a Creative Commons Attribution / Non-commercial (CC-BY-NC) license.

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Interview number: 668
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Carolyn Bland interview recording, 1993 July 26

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1. Carolyn Bland administrative, 1993

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