Bricks Club interview recording, 1993 June 24

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-	See, all those other things was done to him.	0:01
	Well, they couldn't put that on him.	0:04
	They had somebody else.	0:06
	And of course they had the dogs out.	0:08
	And I don't know	0:11
	maybe they found out who, but I don't know.	0:12
	as I say, I was small.	0:15
	I mostly know of this from them talking about it,	0:17
	but he was done a lot of things like that.	0:21
	See, my daddy run the store.	0:24
	They done it.	0:27
	He, well, as I said, did a little bit of farming.	0:30
	And then, he later went in there undertaking business	0:32
	and he started that	0:36
	and they would make the caskets	0:37
	and do all that kind of stuff.	0:39
	And so, I think he was doing a little too much	0:41
	later on in the years for them.	0:45
	And I think that's why,	0:47
	I know that's why they were doing things	0:49
	like that against him.	0:51
	And all that was during this segregation time	0:54
	'cause he was Black.	0:56
-	I'd like to say here too,	0:59
	during that time,	1:01
	you were all right, as long as you stayed over here	1:04
	in your place.	1:07
-	Oh yes. Oh yes.	1:07
-	We had a place.	1:08
	You stay over here in your place.	1:10
	As long as you stay in your place,	1:12
	everything's going to be okay.	1:13
	But don't you go over there	1:15
	and interfere with my cup, cup of tea, get in trouble.	1:16
-	Did anyone ever deliberately cross that line	1:20
	and try to defy the rules?	1:24
	Do you remember that ever happening?	1:28
-	I'm sure they did.	1:29
	I wish I had brought a paper with me	1:30
	that my dad wrote when we were small children	1:33
	to this very school,	1:36
	to Professor Inborden,	1:38
	asking him to allow him	1:40
	to either buy or lease a piece of land	1:43
	that would be near.	1:47
	Now, we live approximately 13, 14 miles from here	1:48
	and there's no way we could walk here.	1:52
	He thought that if we got closer to school,	1:54
	it'd make everything easier for everybody.	1:56
	He was pleading	1:58
	for a parcel of land,	2:01
	either for sale or lease,	2:04
	that he could put a house on	2:07
	so he could bring his family closer	2:09
	to this institution of learning.	2:11
	I looked at the paper this morning.	2:13
	Had I known we were going to talk about this,	2:15
	I would have gladly brought it and shown it to you.	2:17
	But he mentioned	2:21
	in this article	2:25
	that segregation was such	2:26
	that his children	2:31
	were not getting the proper education that they deserved.	2:33
	Not that they needed, but that they deserved.	2:38
	And this is way back,	2:41
	many years ago	2:44
	We never had any problems with segregation, per se.	2:49
	We lived out in our house	2:53
	in the country and we went to school,	2:56
	we came home, we did our work,	2:59
	we went into town and did what we had to do,	3:00
	and back home again.	3:03
	We had no association-	3:04
	We did know the Cofields.	3:05
	We used to visit them.	3:07
	But for some strange reason,	3:11
	we never had any problems with segregation, per se.	3:16
-	What about when you went to town, Miss Wells?	3:21
-	We never had any problems there either.	3:22
	Never.	3:27
	As I say, we weren't allowed to go into town,	3:28
	like some of the people were allowed to go into town.	3:30
	Town then was a place to go	3:34
	to congregate and enjoy your friends from elsewhere.	3:38
	It was a day of-	3:44
-	A meeting place	3:47
-	A meeting place and fun	3:48
	for everybody to be together.	3:50
	And we weren't allowed this.	3:52
	And my parents did not allow us to come into town.	3:53
	Only if we had to go buy shoes, underwear, whatever.	3:57
	We went straight to the store.	4:00
	We bought what we had to buy.	4:02
	We didn't even buy groceries	4:05
	'cause my dad and mom did all the grocery shopping.	4:06
	We bought what we needed,	4:09
	back into the car, and back out in the country again.	4:11
	We never had any problem with that.	4:14
	Never ever.	4:18
-	Did other people?	4:19
-	But it wasn't
	that they had it.	4:20
	It was there.	4:21
-	But can you remember anybody getting into trouble,	4:23
	Coming to town on Saturday and they're being-	4:26
-	Many of the times my dad would come to Enfield	4:29
	to get John or Henry out of jail.	4:33
	They had too much to drink or caused a disturbance.	4:35
-	Yeah.	4:39
-	I've got to go over town.
	That's what he called Enfield	4:41
	and get John or Henry out of trouble.	4:43
	These were the fellows who worked for him.	4:46
	He had at one time as many as 14 hired hands.	4:48
	And on Saturdays, they just had a ball.	4:53
	They would go into town	4:55
	and my father would go in	4:57
	and he'd have to go in and get them out,	4:59
	bring them back out the country.	5:01
-	One of my cousins told me this story.	5:03
	I didn't know it.	5:06
	But he told me	5:08
	that, when he was growing up,	5:10
	he was about our age,	5:12
	but he was a little rougher	5:14
	and one of the white boys	5:17
	mistreated him and he did him in real good.	5:22
	Real good.	5:27
	And then, he hid.	5:29
	And the undertaker,	5:32
	I'm not calling it a name,	5:36
	use his hearse or ambulance,	5:38
	whatever you want to call it.	5:43
-	Hearse.	5:45
-	He hid in that.
	They didn't bother that when it was passing through.	5:48
	And so he got out of town as a result.	5:51
-	What do you think would've happened to him	5:53
	if he hadn't hid?	5:55
-	Well, the trees are a convenient place to dive	5:56
	in case you do something like that.	6:00
	So far they're concerned.	6:04
	They may take you off and you never know	6:06
	because they had all of the weapons	6:08
	and the Negros were kept separate,	6:12
	so to speak, from each other.	6:19
	And you couldn't think of getting together	6:21
	and defending yourself.	6:25
	If you were willing to defend yourself,	6:26
	like my cousin there,	6:29
	well, you had to pay the price.	6:31
	But if you could get some help, you were lucky.	6:33
	And he was lucky.	6:36
	But sometimes, that was not the case.	6:37
	They'd just pick him up.	6:41
	And when you see him again,	6:43
	somebody was taking them down from a tree.	6:46
	That's always...	6:48
	Really, this area was probably	6:49
	well, as rebbish as any area in this state.	6:58
	You see you had slave plantations	7:03
	and the anger and hatred	7:07
	that developed as a result of losing free labor just lasted.	7:12
	And that's still around.	7:18
	Not as much so	7:21
	because you see a lot of our boys	7:22
	have gone to the army	7:25
	and they know how to use guns	7:27
	and they have them.	7:30
	And those are the things that have made a difference	7:32
	'cause being in the army has made a difference	7:35
	because they were trained to fight	7:38
	and how to use weapons.	7:41
	And some of them brought those same weapons back home.	7:46
	So they are now able to defend themselves much better.	7:50
	And they do.	7:56
	'Cause a lot of things happen sometimes	7:57
	because tension has been built up.	8:00
	You think about what somebody did to my uncle,	8:04
	my brother, or my sister, or my mother,	8:09
	and now I had a chance to get even.	8:13
	So one way or another,	8:16
	I will retaliate.	8:19
	And of course, it's not easy to live with	8:21
	and creates other problems,	8:24
	but we've been living with problems all our lives.	8:27
	And we just don't run away from it quite as fast.	8:30
	And then, if you get a guy about half drunk	8:36
	or full of dope,	8:39
	he doesn't think of dying as such.	8:40
	And that's why you have so much,	8:44
	so many people in prison	8:47
	in this area	8:50
	because the situation has changed completely.	8:52
	And they're learning to respect the fact	8:58
	that, if you try to come in my front door,	9:01
	you might not get in.	9:05
	There was a time when	9:07
	you could get in.	9:10
	But if you try knocking our front door	9:11
	and if I tell you not to come in, don't come in	9:15
	(woman chuckles)	9:18
	because it's just like committing suicide.	9:19
-	I don't want to interrupt you,	9:22
	but we have to go somewhere else.	9:24
	So we have to wrap up here.	9:26
-	Well, wrap it up.	9:28
	(people chatter)	9:30
-	Yeah, I just wanted to ask you how much time	9:31
	do we have in here?	9:33
-	Well-	9:34
-	'Cause we could sit here.

-	Very nice to read those things in class.	0:01
	And I always remembered that,	0:06
	and that was the thing	0:08
	that I thought that I would like to do, was sew.	0:08
-	To be a seamstress for a living?	0:14
-	Right, yeah.	0:15
	But, I didn't continue that.	0:17
	I did do some of that work, not too much.	0:19
	My father, he was into business.	0:25
	He had all kind of businesses that he went into. (laughing)	0:28
	And I guess he kind of finessed that way, you know,	0:34
	to be kind of independent.	0:42
	In other words, he wanted you to do things	0:43
	and have your business	0:47
	that you didn't have to work for somebody else.	0:48
	And in that, he did a lot of things	0:53
	to take care of nine children.	0:56
	And my mother just stayed home and took care of the family,	1:00
	you know, she never worked out anything.	1:03
	But, that was a job to take care of that many people.	1:07
	Maybe somebody else now might like to.	1:11
-	Mr. Bell, what did your parents do?	1:14
-	My parents lived on their own farm.	1:19
	Travel and ride my bike	1:26
	three and a half miles out from Enfield.	1:29
	In Enfield, I would catch a bus.	1:31
	You sit in the back of the bus.	1:33
	Get back in time to do a few chores on the farm. (laughing)	1:43
-	But, you were here during the time in school	1:48
	when the counties were running, weren't you?	1:52
-	Yes.	1:54
-	Yes.	1:55
-	Uh-huh, that's what I was saying.	1:56
-	He came later, he came later on.	1:57
-	I can't remember the year because,	1:58
	you know, being young and-	2:00
-	We don't bother to remember the years.	2:01
	(everyone laughing)	2:03
	(coughing) Excuse me.	2:06
	But it would be in about in 1946.	2:06
	It's the first time I've been back here since then.	2:16
	(indistinct)	2:19
	(crosstalk)	2:24
	(crosstalk)	2:29
-	So, your family owned their own farm?	2:33
-	Mm-hmm.	2:35
-	What did they farm?	2:36
-	Everything.	2:38
	They did everything, (indistinct).	2:41
	And the cows.	2:44
	We got some milk, and butter, and we made ice cream.	2:46
	(everyone laughing)	2:50
-	Chickens?	2:51
-	Yeah, I don't think I missed anything.	2:52
	(everyone laughing)	2:53
-	How about the rest of you,	3:00
	what did your families do for a living?	3:01
	Did you-	3:05
-	It's my time?	3:07
-	Yes, please.	3:08
-	First, I'd like to apologize for being late.	3:10
-	That's alright.	3:13
-	I'm still at work, otherwise.	3:14
	And my son was doing a renovation job on our house,	3:16
	and he calls me in for advice, (laughing)	3:23
	and it just took more time than I expected.	3:26
	So, I apologize.	3:30
	Ordinarily, I'm not late.	3:31
	I think he'll tell you that my reputation means	3:34
	that first of all, the first thing I learned	3:38
	when I was coming to Bricks	3:41
	is one of the most important things was be on time.	3:42
-	Right.	3:45
	(everyone laughing)	3:46
	So right.	3:47
-	I don't know where to begin, but I'll begin.	3:49
	I met these three young ladies yesterday,	3:54
	and they insisted that come by 'cause I was about to stay	3:57
	because my schedule's really full.	4:01
	But, now that I'm here, I can begin the age old story.	4:04
	Mrs. Exum happens to be by birth, a first cousin,	4:11
	and we lived more or less on the same yard.	4:19
	Their yard rather than mine because her father was my uncle	4:24
	and she had nine brothers and sisters	4:29
	between her and-	4:36
	Of course, she made the ninth one.	4:41
	But anyway, that's where I did most of my plan,	4:41
	that's where I grew up,	4:44
	and that's where I learned some of the tricks of the trade.	4:45
	(everyone laughing)	4:48
	Her father was actually basically, I would say,	4:50
	served as a second father to me.	4:55
	My mother was divorced	4:58
	before I remember what my father looked like,	5:01
	so I didn't have that experience.	5:04
	Personally, I think I had a better experience	5:08
	because my uncle was right close by.	5:10
	He passed my house every time, every morning,	5:14
	going to work.	5:16
	And he had a message for anybody who would listen.	5:18
-	Oh, awesome.	5:21
-	And I could hear a little bit.	5:22
	And as I said, that he taught me a lot of things.	5:24
	I could go back to the time when we would go fishing.	5:31
	And I don't know	5:35
	whether the interviewer been fishing like we went or not,	5:36
	(everyone laughing)	5:39
	but it was really interesting what we would do.	5:40
	Well I guess, first of all, he was the kind	5:44
	that believed in getting ahold of everything possible,	5:47
	and that which was free, and that which was available,	5:52
	whether it was free or what have you.	5:55
	And so, we lived close to the swamp and he liked to fish.	5:57
	And I followed him and his sons to the swamps,	6:04
	and we had a trick that we'd play on the fish.	6:14
	We'd carry hoes there and make the water so muddy,	6:19
	they would come to the top,	6:23
	and all we'd have to do is pick them up	6:26
	and put them in the bag.	6:28
	(everyone laughing)	6:29
-	They didn't fish with hoes, you know.	6:30
	My daddy didn't-	6:33
-	That was too slow for my uncle.	6:34
	He believed in getting them all and getting them quick.	6:37
	(everyone laughing)	6:39
	And so when the weather would get like this,	6:40
	we would strip down to nature's calling	6:45
	(everyone laughing)	6:48
	and go fishing.	6:52
	Well, that's the truth,	6:53
	that's what you want to hear, isn't it? (laughing)	6:53
	She wasn't there because she was girl.	6:56
-	Oh no, I was-	6:58
-	And so, we would usually come out	6:59
	with as many fish as we could carry.	7:02
	And of course, I'd get enough to supply my folk,	7:06
	and he'd use all the rest for his family.	7:10
	And it was a very fine experience,	7:13
	the companionship and the skills.	7:17
	I learned to swim just a little bit	7:20
	as a result of that experience.	7:22
	Then coming to something that's a little bit more important	7:28
	was fact that I went to grade school, like most folk.	7:31
	I think I started school a little late	7:36
	because we lived on the far end of town	7:39
	and school was on the south end, as we say sometimes.	7:42
	And when I figured my age in relation to the school program,	7:48
	I know beside the fact that I was an unusual student-	7:54
	But you see, there are two kinds, there are normal students,	8:01
	and there are subnormal, and there are above normal.	8:05
	Now you can put me in each class, mostly,	8:09
	but not in the super class 'cause I just wouldn't fit.	8:12
	So, that may have accounted	8:16
	for the fact that I got to Brick	8:17
	and finished junior college, comparably speaking, late.	8:21
	But, I finished in 1932.	8:31
	Now, if you want to talk about the subject at hand,	8:36
	which is Bricks' contribution,	8:38
	I personally think it was an opportunity	8:43
	to learn a lot of things, go to school first of all,	8:48
	as you're fully aware of the fact	8:53
	that public high schools in small towns	8:55
	were not available to some of us, and I was one of those.	9:00
-	I think you were last to get in.	9:07
-	But, Mr. Inborden's personality and type,	9:10
	everybody in the Enfield area	9:16
	felt that he was the next best thing for us all.	9:18
	And my mother came here to school,	9:23
	and I don't know how long she stayed,	9:28
	but I do know at her age	9:29
	she was considered quite well equipped to read and write.	9:32
	So every club that she was in, I think,	9:37
	made her a secretary.	9:39
	I don't know that she was that smart,	9:41
	but she could at least write,	9:42
	and you could read it after she wrote it.	9:44
	So, she insisted that I go to school,	9:49
	and the opportunity came,	9:52
	so I left, finished actually a private school.	9:56
	And of course, that's another story. (laughing)	10:02
	And I think my cousin did the same thing (laughing)	10:07
	'cause we were all in school basically together.	10:09
	In that period of time, transportation was not available	10:17
	unless you were very fortunate,	10:22
	and I'm not going to talk about the fortunate folks,	10:25
	but I was not one of the fortunate ones.	10:28
	But even at that, on our way to school, invariably,	10:31
	somebody would stop and pick us up and bring us to school.	10:35
	And so, we didn't always walk that four miles	10:41
	from Enfield to Brick,	10:46
	sometimes we were fortunate enough,	10:48
	in many cases, we were fortunate enough	10:50
	to have a chance to catch a ride	10:53
	if we were two men in a group.	10:57
	And of cause, we were smart enough to kind of spread out,	11:00
	and the person who was going to give the ride (laughing)	11:03
	could pick up whatever group that he chose.	11:07
	And occasionally, I was in that group.	11:11
	So, we would be able to get here basically on time.	11:14
	And as I said before,	11:21
	if I learned any one thing	11:23
	from the Brick School experiences was be on time. (laughing)	11:23
	That's all there was to it.	11:28
	(everyone laughing)
	And we used the creek bridge,	11:29
	those of us who walked, as a marker.	11:32
	If you got to the bridge before the bell rang,	11:37
	then you knew you were in time.	11:43
	But, if the bell was ringing when you crossed the bridge,	11:48
	you would move a little bit faster	11:50
	because the chances are you will not be here on time.	11:53
	And so, that was one of the landmarks that we used.	11:57
	But, although the experiences that I had here were manyfold,	12:01
	I came here as I said, from an independent school.	12:11
	And I can remember Mr. Gordon at registry,	12:16
	asking me for my credentials.	12:19
	I said, "Well, I don't have anything but this certificate,"	12:23
	a diploma, I guess you would call it,	12:29
	from the independent school in Enfield.	12:31
	And he took it and looked at it and said, "Okay."	12:38
	And he registered me as a ninth grade student,	12:41
	I believe it was.	12:48
	And I stayed here for the four years.	12:50
	And finally, I graduated from high school.	12:54
	And during that period of time, I took shop, art, music,	13:00
	farming, and carpenter work, along with the academics.	13:10
	The carpenter work was probably in the shop	13:17
	and the farming were my pet subjects.	13:22
	And well,	13:25
	I guess one reason was I could pretty well do a fair job.	13:26
	And ever since that time,	13:32
	I have been doing some type of carpenter work.	13:34
	I always had a garden, I farmed, and-	13:40
-	Flowers.	13:46
-	I beg your pardon?	13:47
-	Flowers.	13:48
-	Oh, yes. (laughing)	13:49
	Well, it's true	13:50
	that I have had a very unusual group of flowers,	13:51
	and I spend most of my time now doing the yard.	13:57
	I've gotten a little decrepit	14:03
	and I don't need quite as much exercise. (laughing)	14:07
-	Aw.	14:10
-	But, flowers, I think that I inherited that,	14:12
	going back into the family again from my grandfather.	14:19
	He always had a bunch of flowers.	14:24
	'Cause my cousins accused him of loving the girls	14:27
	and he would give him them flowers,	14:32
	but he wouldn't let the boys get any.	14:34
	But I did have a cousin, her brother, who liked flowers,	14:38
	and so I guess it was in the blood.	14:44
	And I at one time, had a very beautiful rose garden,	14:46
	that consisted of 50 flowers.	14:52
	And I could name all of them one by one, (laughing)	14:56
	and most of the time,	14:59
	I could do it without reading the labels.	15:00
	But now, if I plant a flower and don't read the label,	15:03
	I can't tell you what it is.	15:07
	But, I do have some love of flowers.	15:09
	That experience though paid off in many ways	15:15
	because this place is for culture, including music and art.	15:20
	And the first prize,	15:26
	I believe the only prize I ever got as a student,	15:28
	I received it	15:33
	from a drawing that I did in the art department.	15:34
	And of course, I was very proud of it, naturally.	15:38
	It was worth a whole dollar. (laughing)	15:41
	Well, the instructor was encouraging us to do art.	15:44
	And at the end of the course,	15:50
	that particular drawing was the winner.	15:53
	It was a bungalow house,	15:58
	and I've been interested in houses ever since.	16:02
	I took shop with Mr. Saunders.	16:07
	Most of you who were here, remember him of course.	16:12
-	Yes.	16:15
-	And he taught me how to use saws, hammers, and nails,	16:16
	and what have you,	16:22
	and that has been my hobby for the last 30 years.	16:23
	And I have developed an interest	16:34
	in the renovation of houses, building houses.	16:37
	And I buy houses, renovate them, and then rent them.	16:44
	And so as a result, I have not only some that I built,	16:51
	but I have some that I renovated,	16:56
	and all of them are now are paying business.	16:58
	And my second son is here, working full-time	17:04
	as manager, a repair person, and the director,	17:10
	and what have you, in that business.	17:17
	He works both night and day.	17:23
	And he chose to call me this morning	17:26
	to come and tell him how to put a house back in balance.	17:29
	I don't know why.	17:34
	Well, the front door has fallen, basically one-sided.	17:38
	I'm telling you these things	17:43
	because these are the things that I got at Brick.	17:44
-	You were talking a little bit	17:49
	about influential teachers of yours.	17:51
	I was wondering, Mrs. Wills,	17:53
	if there's some influential teachers	17:54
	that you remember at the school, when you were going-	17:56
-	Or everyone else.	17:59
-	Or everyone else, as well,	18:00
	are there teachers that you remember particularly	18:02
	from your time at the Brick School?	18:05
-	I do.	18:07
-	Mm-hmm.	18:08
	Who were some of those people?	18:09
-	I remember Miss Brown.	18:10
	And she was here, in fact, I think when Brick closed.	18:14
	She went to Rocky Mount's Booker T. High.	18:18
	And in fact she's buried in Rocky,	18:21
	in the city of Rocky Mount.	18:24
	She was one of them.	18:26
	And then, there was a Mrs. Redding,	18:27
	she was the English teacher.	18:30
	I remember her, very outstanding.	18:32
	And Mrs. Miller, Mr. Inborden's daughter.	18:35
	I remember those three.	18:40
	I would say they were outstanding.	18:42
-	What was so outstanding about them?	18:44
-	Well, I guess maybe the way they taught the class.	18:45
	I liked them, I thought they were very good.	18:52
	I think I was influenced under them as a student,	18:55
	I learned a lot under them.	19:01
	And of course, I still stay in contact with Mrs. Miller	19:02
	through my daughters, exactly.	19:06
	I stay in contact with her.	19:10
	And I don't know what Mrs. Redding-	19:12
	I don't think, I don't know if she's still in Enfield-	19:13
-	She's dead.	19:17
-	I've said those three, maybe others have. (laughing)	19:18
-	Mr. Bell, you were saying someone.	19:23
-	I remember Ms. Hamlin, the English teacher.	19:26
	And she was the type of person	19:31
	that she never had any trouble in her classroom	19:35
	because (laughing) the way she spoke	19:38
	and the way she carried herself,	19:41
	nobody would dare do anything, you know?	19:43
	She had a stern look,	19:48
	yet she had a Sunday look at the same time, you know?	19:49
	You just, maybe just within yourself,	19:54
	you would not do anything just to embarrass her.	19:57
	And I remember Ms. Pearly, my biology teacher.	20:00
	She was a very nice teacher, very friendly, and a pleasure.	20:04
	I was always looking forward to coming to school,	20:07
	my teacher was so pleasant.	20:11
	And you always go home, you always learn something each day,	20:13
	you know, so I enjoyed it.	20:19
-	I have,	20:24
	I guess you would call it an odd remembrance of sorts.	20:28
	I remember my mother and father	20:34
	so vividly talking about their teachers,	20:36
	and it came right down to us.	20:40
	When I was in school at Brick, I was six years old.	20:43
	And I remember so many of the older teachers,	20:48
	but my special teacher was Mrs. Saunders.	20:51
	Do you remember Mrs. Saunders?	20:54
-	Yes.	20:55
-	She was a doll.	20:56
	She was.	20:58
-	She was, wasn't she?	20:59
-	(laughing) She never scolded you,	21:02
	she'd never put you down.	21:04
	You know, I had a trouble with spelling,	21:07
	and I was one of those kids	21:11
	that they shoved along, you know.	21:13
	But I had a trouble with spelling,	21:15
	especially the days of the week.	21:16
	And I could not spell Tuesday.	21:19
	(everyone laughing)	21:22
	I remember it as if it were yesterday.	21:23
	And I was standing in front of the class	21:26
	with my hands at my back.	21:27
	And my sister who's sitting on the side over there,	21:29
	she's looking at me, and I'm trying to spell Tuesday,	21:33
	and I'd say, "Tuesday, T-U,"	21:36
	and that's as far as I could get.	21:39
	(everyone laughing)	21:41
	And my sister, she would say, "E-T-U-E,"	21:42
	and I could not get it.	21:46
	And finally, I just broke down in tears and I began to cry.	21:48
	And Mrs. Saunders said to me,	21:53
	she said, "Oh, that's all right, Virginia."	21:54
	She said, "Come and have a seat. Sit beside me."	21:57
	She always sat in the seats with the children, you know,	22:00
	half off, I guess, but she would sit there.	22:03
	And you would go to her and she would console you.	22:07
	If you could not read,	22:10
	or you did not have your assignment for the day,	22:11
	she would talk to you in such a manner	22:14
	that it made you feel all but relieved that,	22:16
	"I didn't know this, but I know that I'm going to get it."	22:19
	Another thing she did, well she used to make soup	22:24
	or would see to it that we'd have	22:27
	this delicious homemade soup and hot chocolate.	22:29
	Now, whether she got it from the dining room over here	22:33
	or whether she brought it from home, I don't know,	22:36
	but we just thought it was the greatest thing	22:38
	'cause Mrs. Saunders, on Tuesdays and Thursdays,	22:40
	she'd always bring us it.	22:42
	A great teacher she was, a beautiful lady,	22:45
	a beautiful person.	22:46
	And if you couldn't learn under her,	22:48
	you might as well go home.	22:52
	(everyone laughing)	22:53
	Because she was so willing and able to help.	22:54
-	She mentioned Mrs. Saunders.	22:57
	She was an influence on me through Mr. Saunders,	23:00
	he was an instructor in the physical arts,	23:04
	manual arts, I believe they called it then.	23:10
	And he taught me how to use a hammer.	23:13
	And I think I gotten more out of his instruction	23:16
	than I did all the rest put together.	23:21
	Mr. Gordon, or Gordon, Mr. Inborden's son,	23:24
	was not to be overlooked because he taught science,	23:28
	and he found a way to get his gardens planted,	23:33
	and worked, and developed, and housed,	23:39
	and he used his sciences classes in that area.	23:42
	And so, I got the experience	23:46
	of doing farm work on a scientific basis through him	23:48
	'cause he was very good at it.	23:53
	And those are two of the people that I will never forget,	23:55
	I don't believe.	24:00
	Of course, there were others,	24:02
	like Mrs. Brown who taught history.	24:04
	And those of us who came here through high school,	24:06
	I'm sure you recall her instruction as a history teacher.	24:10
	There was Mr. Killingworth, who had a lot of patience.	24:15
	He was almost like a big brother to me.	24:19
	And of course, you know, growing up,	24:23
	you wear out clothes pretty quick.	24:25
	And he always found something to make my day more than once.	24:27
	And there many others,	24:34
	most of them were helpful in their own way,	24:35
	and I could appreciate that so much.	24:38
	Like many of us,	24:41
	I was not the best speller in the world either. (laughing)	24:45
	And I learned that sometimes,	24:49
	good conduct, a friendly smile,	24:56
	would get you a whole lot more	25:02
	than knowing all the alphabets in the world.	25:04
	And I learned to use that technique to some extent,	25:07
	not overdo it because I didn't feel that I had a right	25:11
	to really rob myself of an education,	25:17
	even though it was kind of hard because of the background.	25:21
	You see you can't walk to school four miles each way	25:26
	and do a good job of studying	25:32
	when you had to go home and pick cotton for an hour.	25:35
	If you got there early enough and the field was close by,	25:39
	you were tired.	25:44
	When the night came, you would go sleep,	25:45
	and that's all there was to it.	25:47
	But at any rate,	25:48
	those were some of the experiences that I had here	25:50
	that I think were really worth	25:53
	the time and trouble to come here.	25:58
	And I always thought I had basically an inferior education,	26:02
	but the training that I got at Brick	26:10
	helped me when I went to Elizabeth City,	26:15
	it helped me when I went to Durham Central High,	26:20
	a central college route.	26:29
	And of course, I had a short stint at A&T,	26:31
	I was there two summers,	26:38
	and that was a very fine experience as well.	26:40
	But, what I'm trying to say	26:44
	is that I was able	26:45
	to get rid of what many called an inferiority complex.	26:48
	You will get that when you go to some places,	26:54
	or you're young and you just don't do as well.	26:58
	But I guess I learned a few tricks, (laughing)	27:03
	which most abnormal people learn.	27:08
	I'm talking about the subnormal now. (laughing)	27:12
	Yes?	27:16
-	I'd like to inject here.	27:17
	You're talking about superiority, feeling superior too.	27:19
-	Yeah.	27:23
-	No.	27:24
-	And equal to.	27:25
-	Equal to or superior to.	27:26
	When Brick closed, my dad took us out of school.	27:30
	We stayed home for two years.	27:34
	He wouldn't allow us to go to the public school	27:37
	because he felt the school was inferior.	27:39
	He just did not feel that it was up to standards,	27:44
	to our standards anyway.	27:48
	And believe it or not, now that we talk about it,	27:50
	I remember back that far, and it was not up to standard.	27:54
	I remember in Eden school,	28:00
	we had books that were handed down,	28:02
	and I'm sure you know about this,	28:04
	were handed down from the White schools.	28:06
	Nine times out of 10, the teacher's reading to you,	28:10
	"Baby Ray Went Home," and you are looking for,	28:13
	"Baby Ray Went Home," where is "Baby Ray"?	28:16
	It's not in your book, it's torn out.	28:19
	Many pages were torn out.	28:21
	Now, that's what I mean by superiority and superior.	28:23
	We had material, and books, and things to work with at Brick	28:27
	that we did not have in the public schools.	28:32
-	We wanted to ask you about segregation in the community.	28:37
	How were the lines of segregation drawn in your community?	28:41
-	I'd like to say about Mrs. Powell here.	28:48
	Mrs. Powell is from Trinidad.	28:50
	She married a homeboy. (laughing)	28:53
	She married a fellow from home,	28:56
	and that's her reason for being here.	28:58
	She joined our club to help him and to help us,	29:00
	so she won't be of too much help to us.	29:02
-	How about Mr. Powell?	29:06
-	We'll discuss, I'll discuss,	29:07
	or we can discuss, segregation.	29:08
-	Oh, we full of that, but anyway.	29:11
-	If that's what you were concerned about.	29:14
	Well, as you know, the schools were segregated.	29:18
	You didn't have, if you went to Willow,	29:24
	there were no cafes available	29:27
	only in the Negro neighborhoods.	29:30
	You couldn't go into a White cafe like you can now,	29:33
	and sit down, and eat, and enjoy a meal.	29:37
	That was out of the question.	29:42
	See, you living on a new day.	29:45
	I don't feel slighted so to speak, you know,	29:52
	when I go into some of these places,	29:57
	but I don't relish going in to start with.	29:59
	'Cause if my money wasn't good enough for you 50 years ago,	30:02
	to me, it still isn't good enough for you.	30:07
	We own places that are just as well kept,	30:11
	just as well available.	30:14
	Well, the whole thing's entirely different.	30:20
	And there's no real reason why you should feel	30:22
	that you ought to go where you're not wanted.	30:26
	That's my philosophy.	30:30
	And today, I hesitate to go to some of the places	30:32
	because I feel that they'd rather not have me there,	30:36
	and there are other places	30:42
	that I think appreciate my coming, so I go.	30:43
	Those are just the way I take it.	30:47
	Now, that is a countywide situation.	30:49
	And if you look around and go to any other county	30:56
	in the east of North Carolina,	31:00
	I think you'd find basically the same thing.	31:02
	Sometimes, you can understand their attitude	31:09
	and sometime you can't.	31:13
	Why is it alright for the Black man or the Black woman	31:16
	to nourish the babies, to cook the food,	31:21
	and do all these other things,	31:25
	and yet being denied the simple necessities of life.	31:27
	I'm not talking about socializing.	31:31
	And why is that still practiced?	31:35
	And it is to limited degree, and only has stopped	31:40
	because the United States government says,	31:45
	"You have to serve that person."	31:47
	And they know that somehow,	31:50
	they've got one problem or another if they don't do it.	31:52
	And that's the only reason why they do it,	31:56
	it's not because they want to do it.	31:58
-	And our schools, we had rundown schools,	31:59
	you know, in our community, for our children,	32:08
	and they had the nice schools.	32:10
	And the children,	32:13
	the rural children who came to school in town,	32:16
	well I didn't live out there, but I know about it,	32:19
	they had to walk and get to school maybe,	32:22
	and walk a lot of miles.	32:25
	And meanwhile,	32:29
	the White children on the buses that were carrying them,	32:31
	they'd pass these children on the street	32:35
	and go on to their schools.	32:38
-	And your mom and dad are paying the same taxes-	32:40
-	They're probably paying more taxes than some of them	32:44
	'cause I know some of them didn't have as much as we had,	32:46
	and my dad was paying taxes and we could not go there.	32:50
-	That didn't matter about taxes, if you paid the taxes.	32:53
	I mean, that's the way they felt.	32:57
-	Very unfair, very unfair.	33:00
-	You were Black.	33:03
-	Well I can say, to describe segregation here,	33:04
	to me it was so thick, you could cut up with a knife.	33:10
	(everyone laughing)	33:14
	That's how bad it was.	33:15
-	Oh yeah.	33:16
-	I didn't care, I was small,	33:17
	and I wouldn't necessarily go to restaurants anyway,	33:19
	you know?	33:21
	And if I could have, I mean if I had the money to go with,	33:22
	I would not have gone 'cause my mother's food	33:29
	was far superior I think than any restaurant.	33:32
-	Oh yeah.	33:34
-	She was a really good cook. (laughing)	33:35
	I don't think anybody could, you know,	33:37
	cook any better food than she cooked.	33:40
-	And it was almost unheard of anyway	33:43
	to go to a restaurant in that day and time.	33:45
	We just didn't do that.	33:47
	We stayed at home and had our meals at home,	33:49
	and that was it.	33:51
-	Well in a way, being segregated here, it did me a favor.	33:53
	'Cause I left, I got another job, I retired.	33:58
	I said, "I'm going to beat the system."	34:02
	And I'm retired now, I'm walking around here,	34:03
	and I think I've beat it.	34:06
	I think I've done my job.	34:07
-	How did you mean to beat the system?	34:08
-	Because I mean, not necessarily-	34:10
	Within myself of doing what I wanted to do.	34:13
-	Mm-hmm.	34:15
-	I mean, segregation's still out here, see,	34:16
	and it will always be.	34:19
	But, I did what I wanted to do within myself.	34:21
	I'm just talking about what I did.	34:22
	I mean, I don't have to go out and look for a job.	34:24
	I get up in the morning, I get ready. (laughing)	34:27
	And by the system being that way,	34:30
	it made me twice as aggressive, you know,	34:32
	when I probably would not have,	34:35
	if I could have done things like I wanted to here,	34:36
	I would not have been so aggressive in doing, overcoming,	34:39
	as Martin Luther King said.	34:42
	I think I've overcome within myself to do.	34:44
	Now, I'm giving back some of the things that I had gotten,	34:47
	you see?	34:51
	I have have delivered the Meals on Wheels in Enfield.	34:53
	And in that way,	35:00
	I've given of course back to the church in Enfield.	35:02
	And whatever program they're doing,	35:03
	they can call me anytime, and they do,	35:08
	and I think they overdo it sometimes.	35:10
	(everyone laughing)	35:12
	What'd they tell me you said, "Push it to the limit"?	35:15
	I think they pushed it to the limit of calling me,	35:18
	"Do this, do that, take me here, pick up this,"	35:21
	I'm always getting a call.	35:25
	But, I don't mind.	35:26
	Sometime I say, "Well, I'm tired,	35:27
	but I can get up and go do it and come home again."	35:29
	It's a day's work, you know?	35:35
	I can leave with a satisfaction with myself	35:36
	having done some activity during the day.	35:38
-	Well, I can remember.	35:42
	I didn't mean to-	35:45
-	Oh, it's okay.	35:46
-	I remember, you know, my father-	35:47
	I was small, but I can remember how my father was treated.	35:49
	I think it was more or less	35:53
	because he just went out to do things	35:55
	and to take care of his family,	35:58
	and he did a whole lot of things.	36:00
	Like, he did a little bit of farming,	36:03
	he did all kind of businesses he went into.	36:05
	And I think he was doing a little too much for him.	36:10
	And I can remember once, they had a place,	36:15
	I guess something like a market.	36:21
	How is that said?	36:24
-	It's a market.	36:25
-	Uh-huh, downtown, you know?	36:26
-	Yes, it's what they call a beef market.	36:28
-	And I think they had stalls like-	36:32
-	Yeah.	36:34
-	Each one had-	36:35
	And so, my father had one in there,	36:36
	you know, with the Whites, of course.	36:39
	And he was always mistreated.	36:42
	His stuff would be, you know.	36:44
	And I think they didn't want him there for one thing.	36:47
-	What happened to his stuff?	36:51
-	Well, I don't really know,	36:52
	but they would do little things,	36:54
	you know, to discourage him, I'm sure that's what that was.	36:57
	And I only know about this from hearing it, you know.	37:02
	And I can remember once, my mother-	37:07
	As I said, he had a garden, he sold stuff out the garden,	37:12
	he just did a whole lot of different things.	37:15
	And I guess it was just	37:18
	getting a little too far for him or something.	37:22
	And one morning, early,	37:25
	I think my brothers probably was coming over here to school,	37:29
	my older brothers,	37:32
	and she would've to get up early, you know,	37:33
	and fix breakfast for them.	37:35
	And she went out to,	37:36
	what they called a smokehouse or something, to get some-	37:40
-	Smokehouse.	37:42
-	Yeah, some meat or whatever.	37:43
	And when she went out there,	37:46
	she found this pile of things out there,	37:47
	and it was covered over,	37:54
	And she kind of looked to see what it was,	37:56
	and it was a pile of clothes, freshly pressed clothes.	37:59
	So, she went back in the house and told my father.	38:06
	So, he came out and he saw them.	38:08
	And somebody, what they had done from the cleaners,	38:15
	they had been and got these clothes and brought them there,	38:19
	so he would be accused next morning, see.	38:27
	The law, as he would've gone to the police,	38:32
	and they found out somebody had broke in,	38:34
	and they would take these things out.	38:38
	And they even had the dogs and everything	38:40
	and had been out looking for them.	38:46
	But my mother had found them,	38:47
	and so she told my father, he gets up there-	38:49

Item Info

Title:

Bricks Club interview recording, 1993 June 24

Date:

June 24, 1993

Creator:

Bricks Club

Contributor:

Description:

Name: Mae McWilliams Cofield; Date of birth: 1906-10-03; Place of birth: Enfield, NC; Occupation(s): domestic; housewife; clerical; Residence: Enfield, NC. Name: Julia Cofield Exum; Date of birth: 1911-06-30; Place of birth: Enfield, NC; Occupation(s): merchant; real estate; Residence: Enfield, NC. Name: Willie Otto Powell; Date of birth: unknown; Place of birth: Halifax Co., NC; Occupation(s): transportation; public service; Residence: Enfield, NC. Name: Almyra Pittman Wills; Date of birth: 1921-12-08; Place of birth: Enfield, NC; Occupation(s): manufacturing; printing; Residence: Whitakers, NC
Informant ID: 156; Interviewed by: Leslie Brown; Informant ID: 157; Interviewed by: Karen Ferguson; Informant ID: 150; Interviewed by: Kara Miles; Informant ID: 100; Interviewed by: Rhonda Mawhood. This group of individuals was connected with the Brick School (the Joseph Keasbey Brick Agricultural, Industrial, and Normal School) in Bricks, N.C., near Enfield. Most were also interviewed separately - these recordings are available in the collection under their names.

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Language:

English

Digital Collection:

Behind the Veil

Source Collection:

Behind the Veil: Documenting African American Life in the Jim Crow South interviews, photographs, and project records, circa 1864-2011, bulk 1990-2004

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Provenance:

The David M. Rubenstein Rare Book and Manuscript Library acquired the Records of the Behind the Veil Oral History Project from the Duke University Center for Documentary Studies in 1997, 1998, 2000, and 2002.

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Limited Re-Use

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Copyright for content created by the Behind the Veil project is held by Duke University and made available to the public using a Creative Commons Attribution / Non-commercial (CC-BY-NC) license.

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Interview number: 358
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Bricks Club interview recording, 1993 June 24

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Item Info

1. Bricks Club slides: "Brick Music teacher Beatrice Walker of Nashville, Tennessee (Watson of D.C.)", 1911

2. Bricks Club slides: "Country Baptizing Scene in Fishing Creek", circa 1910s

3. Bricks Club slides: "Fisk Group," "Kappa Sigmas" in formal dress, posing in front of building with large columns, circa 1910s

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