Clarence White interview recording, 1993 February 04

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Clarence V. White	Ready? My name is Clarence V. White. I was born 1934 in Johnston County. I lived in Johnston County from birth until the age three. From age three, I always lived in New York, grew up in New York, know more about New York, a whole lot more than I do about Johnston County. My connection with Johnston County, through birthright and through relatives, was that every summer I knew where I was headed. And that was here in North Carolina, which I hated, not because of any racial thing, but because of the work. I did not like the farm work. The work was very hard, backbreaking and very unrewarding, and the weather was extremely hot. I don't know. It just was not for me. It wasn't my cup of tea.	0:02
Clarence V. White	My mother and my father were never married legally. My father—Excuse me—remained. He always lived here in North Carolina. My mother left North Carolina at a very early age. I don't know what age she left here because I don't ever remember her living in North Carolina. She was born in North Carolina, of course. I think the way that she ended up in New York was because back in those days, White people traveling through would enlist the services of a young Black female as house servants and so forth. So, I never did ask her how she ended up there. Always intended to, but never got around to it. I fear that that's how she inevitably ended up in New York. She was a very, very lovely woman. She was uneducated. My father, he was a lovely man, a wonderful man, very strong man. He was uneducated also. They had elementary schooling, but no formal education.	1:11
Clarence V. White	I did not, after I got up, I think around about, oh, 12 or 13, it was I guess maybe, oh, a 10 to 12-year span before I came back to North Carolina. Needless to say, when I returned, the last time I was here, I had two sisters were born, Helen and Reen, and they were one and two years old, respectively. When I returned after a long absence to find out that I had all these other brothers and sisters, was quite a shock, needless to say. But got to know them. We're not—Well, our outlooks are not the same simply because of geographical raising, growing up locations. That made the big difference. Me growing up in New York, them growing up down here. We have trouble even today when we get together and talk. Sometimes I have trouble understanding their speech and they have trouble understanding my speech. They tell me my speech is wrong to me, but their Southern—their speech is wrong—Go ahead, Uncle Joe.	2:30
Uncle Joe	No, go ahead.	4:17
Clarence V. White	But as far as my recollection as a little boy of the South, I cannot honestly—Of course it was segregated. We all knew that. But I heard of Ku Klux Klans and groups like that. But in the area where my folks come from, there were certain areas, I'm sure parts throughout the whole country, where people simply didn't tolerate it. I do know around the Clayton and the area around in there, most Blacks simply didn't tolerate a lot of mess from Whites. They'd shoot them. If a White person come around—Well, ain't no White man think about riding, come around, with no Black person in the house with no sheet on in his Ku Klux Klan playing gear around where my folks came up because they simply didn't tolerate it.	4:19
Clarence V. White	I have never been called a racial name in the South. But New York, now, that's different, now. I've been called racial names. New York is very, very racial. Most of your larger northern urban areas are extremely prejudiced. It's just that we always put all the blame on the South. And that's very unfair. Very unfair. For instance, I know I'm jumping the gun here floating about, but to get my point across, it's never mentioned Connecticut. The state of Connecticut was one of the largest slave-holding states in the country in this Union. Yet, every time they mentioned slave-holding states, always the South, and the North had more than their share. Massachusetts had some areas of slave owners.	5:32
Clarence V. White	Even while Frederick Douglass, who, after knowing some of his history, he's never been a favorite of mine, simply because while he attended the Boston Tea Parties and the circles and all that stuff, he was a orator. The White, mainly the Caucasian women, loved to have him at their tea parties to orate and talk and carry on and so forth. But he never really did anything to help the Black cause of Black people there. Some of those people would drive up with their boys, with their almost chattels, as you can call them, same thing as slave servants, to pick up Mr. Frederick Douglass. He treated them just as badly as the White owners did. He just simply was not a hero of mine.	6:29
Clarence V. White	So, I cannot really—Sure, the South was rough. Very, very rough. The many, many Blacks that left the South, I don't recall any—I'm sure there might have been some, but most Blacks did not leave the South because of segregation. Blacks left the South because of economic conditions, as did Whites also. Whites left the South in droves too, but that's never mentioned. They left here in droves because of economic conditions. There just was no money. You couldn't make money farming unless you owned a lot of land.	7:40
Clarence V. White	Jumping back to, oh, the period right after—Now, my grandmother, whose name was Mary Jane White, we don't know her exact birthday, but we do know she was definitely born during slavery time because I used to talk to her as a little boy and she remembered, and as the old folks used to say, when the Yankees came through and how blood was running in certain cities and towns here because the Union forces and the Confederate forces fought so hard for these various towns. So, we do know that she was definitely born in slavery time.	8:33
Clarence V. White	My grandfather, which his name was Simon White, which was her husband, he was also born during slavery time, but he was half Cherokee Indian. I never saw him. He died before I was born. But I saw numerous pictures of him. Don't have anything around now. He wore his hair in two long braids. They say he was a very mean man. But then I guess when you put the mixture of African and Indian blood together, what do you expect?	9:22
Paul Ortiz	Mr. White, do you remember, were there any other stories you remember your grandparents telling you when you were [indistinct 00:10:11]	10:02
Clarence V. White	Yes. I remember my grandmother saying about a runaway—She remembered people used to run away from their masters and so forth and how certain masters were very lenient. They did not believe in meting out punishment on their slaves. And naturally, there were others who were extremely brutal, and how when a slave would run away, they'd get the blood hounds out. They had trained dogs for tracking, to chase them down. Most often, they would get them back. Very rare would one make it to safety because, let's face it, where was he going to go? Where could he go? There's no one to shelter him because the other Blacks that might have been could have hid him, probably. But you were afraid to hide him because you feared for your own life and safety.	10:11
Clarence V. White	From what my grandmother said, when a child was born, the parent, you didn't matter. You were that slave owner's property and that slave owner could take you away and sell you even as soon as you were weaned. If they saw fit to sell you, they sold you. While here in Raleigh, I've heard people, my grandparents speak about it, I don't know where it was—Excuse me. They had an auction block here in Raleigh on a specific spot. Uncle Joe, did you ever hear of this spot here in Raleigh, a auction block where they sold Black slaves?	11:18
Uncle Joe	Not in Raleigh.	12:08
Clarence V. White	Well, my grandmother said that there was.	12:09
Uncle Joe	I'm not denying that. But since you asked me a question, I'm answering.	12:11
Clarence V. White	Right. Oka.y	12:17
Uncle Joe	Not in Raleigh, but in Fayetteville.	12:17
Clarence V. White	Fayetteville also.	12:17
Uncle Joe	Fayetteville [indistinct 00:12:19].	12:17
Clarence V. White	I think Fayetteville was one of the main—	12:19
Uncle Joe	[indistinct 00:12:23] my wife [indistinct 00:12:23] they took me and I saw some planks by the organization. [indistinct 00:12:32] when I was little [indistinct 00:12:33]	12:22
Clarence V. White	But life was very, very brutal. I do think that—I don't know. I'm just glad that I was not in that period and didn't have to live through that because just to think about it, is very horrible time. Very horrible time. But overall, for me, I have no bitter memories of the South. My racial memories are of naturally New York and Chicago and all because I was a so-called Northern boy. So, I know what went on there. Even to this very—New York City, this very day, is one of the most—New York, Chicago, Boston, three of the most prejudiced places. It's worse than any parts of Mississippi ever was right now.	12:33
Clarence V. White	In parts of New York City, right now, if you're Black and you get caught after dark in certain areas of New York City, you may not get out of there alive. And this is 1994. Not 1894. 1994. And this is a fact, not fiction or hearsay. This is a fact. It's kept very, very—I don't know. Well, the only time it really hits the news is when somebody gets killed in those areas, then it makes headlines. But all the beatings and so forth, that's everyday occurrence in New York City.	13:50
Paul Ortiz	Mr. White, I wonder if we could go back and talk about some of your early family life.	14:32
Clarence V. White	Well, here in the South, tell you honest truth. Now, when you stop and think about it, the difference between the South and the North, family survival-wise was not that much different simply because you had wood-heating stove in New York when I was a boy; you had the man come around on horse and wagon selling coal, ice. Same thing down here. There was really not that much difference. Food-wise it was the same. The only thing was that you felt more prejudice in New York than I did here. A whole lot more.	14:38
Paul Ortiz	Did you have other relatives in New York, or were you with [indistinct 00:15:44]	15:41
Clarence V. White	Just my mother.	15:44
Paul Ortiz	Just your mother.	15:44
Clarence V. White	Just my mother. And—	15:45
Paul Ortiz	And she was working? She was a domestic worker?	15:48
Clarence V. White	Yes. Uh-huh. Yeah. She did domestic work all the time. Then in our little neighborhood when I was a little boy, you were very well cared for because New York was totally different then than it is now. Everybody knew everybody in the block and in the neighborhood.	15:50
Paul Ortiz	Now, which neighborhood was it?	16:10
Clarence V. White	In New York City, Manhattan. You didn't have to lock your doors or nothing. People didn't go in your house, apartment. There was no stealing, break-ins, and all that stuff. It was unheard of. Simply unheard of. In the summertime, people slept in the parks, slept on the rooftops of buildings, wherever, because people didn't have air conditioning. The weather, I guess, when you stop and think about, it was probably just as hot in the summertime in New York as it was here. The difference was I didn't have to work. In New York, all I had to do was play in the streets. Play.	16:11
Paul Ortiz	Who were your neighbors? I'm curious [indistinct 00:16:57]	16:54
Clarence V. White	In New York?	16:56
Paul Ortiz	Yeah. Do you remember?	16:57
Clarence V. White	They were all Black. In New York City, you don't live really in integrated communities in New York. New York is a very—This is a Black neighborhood, White neighborhood. That's it. That's it. Integrated living, simply, and to this very day, it's just practically nonexistent. There are Black neighborhoods and White neighborhoods in New York City. That's it.	16:58
Clarence V. White	As far as I can remember as a little boy down here, when I come down here in the summertime, when they did certain parts of the farm work, I would enjoy it because the only way people got their work done down here, they had to what they call swap work. "I help you today. We all go over to your house today. Tomorrow, we'd all go over to somebody else's house." It was like a round robin because people didn't have money to pay to help them get in their crops. They had to do it by helping each other. I remember in the neighborhood that I came from, everybody was so poor and so hard, people down there, they didn't have time to be prejudiced.	17:28
Paul Ortiz	This is in Johnston County?	18:28
Clarence V. White	Yeah. They didn't have time to be prejudiced. I'm sure—Now, I've heard that in certain little pockets in Johnston County, it was rough. But all I remember was, I don't care whose house it was, they fixed dinner, everybody sat down and ate together. Blacks didn't go over here and eat. Whites didn't come in and eat first and all. Everybody sat and ate together. Everybody worked together. Tell you the honest truth, down in that area, as I remember it, just as many Black men was sneaking around with White women and just as many White men was sneaking around with Black women. And I've never heard of any problem.	18:29
Paul Ortiz	Now, you're saying that the Black farmers would help out White farmers?	19:22
Clarence V. White	Oh, yes.	19:25
Paul Ortiz	[indistinct 00:19:26].	19:25
Clarence V. White	Yes. Oh, yes.	19:26
Paul Ortiz	Were they all tenant farmers? [indistinct 00:19:31]	19:29
Clarence V. White	Not all. Some owned their own land. I'd say it was about half and half. About half and half. But it didn't make any difference. You needed help to get a new crop. My grandmother, she was a midwife and obviously, she must have been extremely good at what she did because I would say about, oh, gosh, anybody from the age, I'd say 50. Yeah. From the age, say, 47 on up through their 60s, White or Black and around the Cleveland Township, Clayton area, my grandmother probably brought them on this Earth because she was so good. Never heard of her losing a baby. Every man, when the women came into labor, White or Black, they came to get my grandmother.	19:32
Clarence V. White	She could not read or write. She was a very rough woman. But I guess I didn't understand her simply because until about I guess maybe three or four years ago, maybe a little longer than that back, but anyhow, I was sitting down talking to an aunt of mine about how my grandmother used to beat me and how I hated her. And my aunt says to me, "You shouldn't hate her because she didn't know any better." Says, "Remember, that woman was born in slavery time. All she knew, she thought she was doing the right thing, but she simply didn't know any better." Of course, that didn't help my case any whatsoever.	20:41
Paul Ortiz	So now, when you were living in New York, but you would come down North Carolina, you used to work on the harvest, but who were you staying with?	21:30
Clarence V. White	My grandmother.	21:38
Paul Ortiz	You were staying with your grandmother.	21:38
Clarence V. White	And my father. See, my father was not married at that time. He was not married. To be honest with you, at that time, I really didn't really know that he was my father, you see? But he was a very gentle man. God, when now I think back on that man, he was—The man, all he knew was hard, backbreaking, farm work. Paul, I don't think the man ever had $100 in his pocket in his entire life to call his very own. Never, never. All he knew was backbreaking, hard, sharecropping work. It was tough. But I used to enjoy being around him. It's funny. I look so much like him now until sometimes when I'm around some of my sisters and I'm sitting and I'm just thinking, and they walk, kind of approach me from the side or from the rear, it startles them because they say I look so much like daddy, only naturally I'm heavier and [indistinct 00:22:56] this belly.	21:39
Paul Ortiz	Do you remember some of the kinds of values that he taught you and your—	23:01
Clarence V. White	Hard work.	23:05
Paul Ortiz	Hard work.	23:06
Clarence V. White	Hard work and honesty. Hard work and honesty. The man, that's just the way he was. He didn't fear anything or anyone. He wasn't a bad man. Didn't go for bad or tough, but he simply was a easy man. But there were two things you didn't do to my daddy. He had extremely bad feet. Don't step on his feet. If you stepped on his feet, you had a problem. Don't bother his kids. If you messed with his kids, you couldn't stop him. He would hurt you. As a matter of fact, he try his damnedest to kill you.	23:08
Clarence V. White	My father had five brothers and they all, more or less, I guess got a little bit of their daddy in them, which was my granddaddy. Tell you a little story because my granddaddy—See, back at the close of the Civil War, most Blacks were given a certain amount of land and property and so forth. But anyway, my granddaddy, being an old Indian, he knew how to compile his property and get other properties. Anyway, to make a long story short.	23:52
Clarence V. White	I understand one year, the six boys, including my father, they were all from teenagers to early 20s. And he said to him, says, "Boys," says, "how would you like to have a car?" So, back in those days, you tell boys, a car, man, even maybe one or two White people in the whole county got a car. A car? Are you—They said, "Yeah." He said, "Well, I tell you what. You all work hard, bring in the good crop, buy you a car." I understand the boys worked hard. They brought in a bumper crop that year. Now mind you, they owned their own land at that time.	24:41
Clarence V. White	So the old man, Grandpa Simon, that was his name. Simon White, he really went to, I think it was Smithfield, and bought a brand new car. Nobody knew how to drive it. So, the people brought it out to the farm and put it in the barn. Now, once they put it in the barn, old man Simon White would put on his best suit on Sunday and go out there and just sit in the car. Couldn't go no place, now. Just sit in it. But he wouldn't let the boys sit in it.	25:22
Clarence V. White	Wouldn't let them learn how to drive it either. I don't know how long that went on. But from what I understand, my uncle, things he told me, he says, "Finally one night, the barn burned down with the car in it." What had happened was the boys figured like this: If we can't drive it, he can't sit in it. He was mean. But he didn't realize he'd raised six mean sons, too. Every time I think about it, and this is the truth, every time I think about it, I have to laugh.	25:55
Clarence V. White	But they eventually, as most Blacks did back in those days, they lost the land through devious means, because let's face it. Blacks, they didn't have any education, know anything about taxes. Most, I'd say 98% of all lands back then was got taken away from Blacks because of taxes. The prime example would be—Now, I don't know how much taxes were back then, but let's say for argument's sake, if it wasn't but $50 a year. Now, they ain't send him no tax bill. Ain't nobody come out, tell them nothing about no tax. So you think everything's fine. The land is yours.	26:32
Clarence V. White	After about five or six years go by, then you got about $200 or $300 tax bill, all of a sudden they come out and post a notice on say, well, you got 30 days to pay that $500. Well, now where you going to get $500 back then just like that? Now you run into the town and try to borrow from a bank that's a White bank. They know what's going on. They ain't about to let you have no $500. So, the land is taken back and then it's auctioned off dirt cheap.	27:29
Paul Ortiz	And you think this is what happened with—	28:00
Clarence V. White	Yes. Mm-hmm.	28:03
Paul Ortiz	Do you know how much land, approximately—	28:05
Clarence V. White	Acreage-wise, I couldn't. Jesus Christ.	28:07
Uncle Joe	Now back when was what they gave slave people that had became free.	28:11
Paul Ortiz	Mr. White's grandfather's land.	28:16
Uncle Joe	Oh, oh. I'm sorry.	28:19
Clarence V. White	All I know is it was about—I know exactly where it is. It was about, I'd say, quarter of a mile in width and at least a mile in length, the land was. I don't know what that would compute into acreage. I wouldn't know.	28:20
Paul Ortiz	That's a good size.	28:57
Clarence V. White	Yes, yes. They had a lot of land. A lot of land. That old man Simon White, he was not stupid. Now, from what I understand, forget about the Black people. White people feared that man. I understand the White people feared Simon White because he was just—They say the man was mean. The man was mean, and he would hurt you. It was that simple. I understand that one time, some White man swore out a warrant for him for something. Argument started over a cow, something. The man's cow kept coming onto grandpa's land. So, grandpa warn him a couple of times, said, "Next time that cow come over here, you ain't getting him back." Grandpa was a man of his word. He kept the cow.	28:58
Clarence V. White	Man had come to sneak in and get him one night. Grandpa shot at him four or five times with a shotgun. I think he caught a few buck shots in him. Anyhow, he went to the sheriff. Sheriff told him, "I'm not going over to that old man's house and serve him no warrant. I ain't ready to die." So, that was the end of that. Man never got his cow back, from what I understand.	29:56
Paul Ortiz	Did you do anything when you would come down to Johnston County to work on the farm? Did you have any other friends or playmates?	30:22
Clarence V. White	Believe it or not, most of my playmates were White because my neighbors were White. And there was never a problem. Never ever a problem. Where I lived, to know my folks lived, practically everything around there was White. The few Blacks that did live around, their kids were way older than me. So the next thing you know, wherever you are, whoever's there to play with, you play with them. Most of them, which I'm glad they were, they were girls. We had a good time. We always had a good time. Man. The only thing I hated about it was the work. I did not like—I was not cut out for no farm work.	30:32
Paul Ortiz	Well, what were the kind of crops?	31:27
Clarence V. White	Cotton.	31:29
Paul Ortiz	Cotton.	31:33
Clarence V. White	Tobacco, corn. That was it. Cotton, tobacco, and corn. I didn't mind the tobacco and the corn so much, but that cotton. I did not like that cotton. Lord, that cotton. I remember two times I stayed down here. I went to school. I went to school down here two winters. And oh, gosh, I didn't—I don't know. I just didn't like it. I didn't care for it. The only thing I liked about going to school down here was the ride in the school bus. But in the wintertime, man, years ago, winters down here were very, very cold. Winters years ago was something like it was this winter, only this winter minus the snow. You had deep snow back then. I mean, it would snow and stay on the ground. Man, riding those school buses, they didn't have heat like these buses, their heat. Man, those things. Man, your feet be throbbing by the time you get to school, it'd be so cold. And your hands.	31:33
Paul Ortiz	Where did you go to school when you were [indistinct 00:32:44]	32:42
Clarence V. White	A little school called—What's the name of that school? Oh, wait a minute. Oh, dear. Short Journey. Yeah. Short Journey Elementary School. Well, that was the neighborhood school that I attended when I stayed. That was now from my folk's house to that school had to be, oh, I would say a good 10 miles. A good 10 miles. So, that was quite a little ride.	32:43
Paul Ortiz	And that was in the '40s?	33:25
Clarence V. White	Yeah. Mm-hmm.	33:30
Paul Ortiz	Was it just a grade school?	33:38
Clarence V. White	Yeah. Mm-hmm. Elementary school. Went up to, I think, if I remember correctly, the 7th grade. I attended school there. I went one year in I believe the 4th grade and one year in the 6th grade. Other than that, all my schooling was in New York.	33:39
Clarence V. White	My education was interrupted because I went into service at 15 years old. I went to Korea, fought in Korea, got out of service at 18, then got back in high school and went on and completed high school, played football in high school.	34:10
Paul Ortiz	That was in New York?	34:33
Clarence V. White	Mm-hmm. Yeah. My high school, while I was there, we won two citywide championships. Bayside High School used to be one of the premier high schools in New York. I don't have to tell you, New York City, I don't know how many high schools there are in New York. There's a lot, a whole lot of—If you citywide champs in New York, you're good. Then I didn't go to college until I was 34.	34:35
Clarence V. White	At age 34, then I decided by that time in my first marriage, my daughter entered college. I don't know, Paul. All of a sudden, a bug bit me and said, "Man, don't raise no kid that knows more than you know." So then I decided to go to college. Then I worked 10 hours a day, went to college 3.5 hours a night, 5 nights a week for 6 years to get my little degree. So, when kids come up today talking about, "Ah, this is so hard." You're right. My heart bleeds for you. It's there if you want it. It ain't easy. But it ain't never been easy.	35:08
Paul Ortiz	When did you meet your wife?	35:59
Clarence V. White	Oh, dear. Let's see. When I was 19 years old. Yeah. I was 19 years old. That was 1950. I believe it was 1950, around 1954. I believe it was 1954.	36:02
Paul Ortiz	1954. What about your experience in the Korean War? What was it like to go over?	36:23
Clarence V. White	You know, I'm glad you asked that, Paul, because now when I went into the service—Number one, I would not have gone in if I had known that a war was going to break out. It's just that at that time, I don't know, I didn't want to go to school, yet there were no jobs. And I didn't want to end up just hanging out in the streets because my mother didn't deserve that. So, I came down here. I had dropped out of school and I came down here one—I think it was around February, and I decided to go in the service. So, I put my age up and an aunt of mine signed for me.	36:37
Clarence V. White	When I went into service, I went into service in May of '50. War broke out June of '50. When I went into service, military service was strictly segregated, naturally. I took my basic training straight leg, what we call straight leg basic training, in Fort Knox, Kentucky.	37:19
Clarence V. White	I don't know about services now, but back then, they had every training outfit. You had what they call the Outstanding Trainee, like the valedictorian of the class, I guess. But the Outstanding Trainee, they would give you the option of two choices. You could go to Ranger School or OCS: Officers Candidate School. Well, they explained the options to me. If you go to Ranger School, all this money you get; if you graduate, you get all these different paid salaries, and you talking to a little poor boy, good lord, man. End up graduate, I'm getting go end up getting, I think, around $130 a month. That was a lot of money back then, a awful lot of money.	37:52
Clarence V. White	But anyhow, I chose to go to Ranger School. The rangers back then was the very cream of the crop, the very best that the US services had to offer. Back then, you didn't have your—What is it they call them? Frog men and all this—	38:41
Paul Ortiz	Special forces.	39:03
Clarence V. White	Yeah. You didn't have no special forces. The rangers were it. So, I went to Ranger School at Fort Benning, Georgia. It's five weeks of hell. That's what it is. Anyway, then when I came out and I shipped overseas to Korea at a ranger outfit. Now, my outfit was integrated, the Ranger School, because there was only one other Black guy in the ranger outfit that I was in over there in Korea because elite outfits like that, they didn't let Blacks in.	39:04
Clarence V. White	But anyhow, then after I was wounded three separate times in Korea, and then when I come back here, shipped back to the States, then all of a sudden you come back to a totally different environment because then all the armed forces were integrated. Now, you never seen Black and White guys sleeping in the same barracks before in your life. Now everybody's sleeping together, training together, eating together. So, it took a bit of adjustment.	39:46
Clarence V. White	But the service experience, I can't truthfully say that I experienced any racial bad experiences in service because I was so young. Most of the guys in ranger outfit were Southern White guys. Those guys took you under their wing just as a kid, and they'd tell you, "Boy, do this, do that, and watch me." By calling you boy, they didn't mean anything. If you'd been polka dot, they would've called you boy. Some of them, the older guys would say, "Son, do this now. You made a mistake. You almost got yourself killed the other day. Don't do that again. Blah, blah, blah, blah." They were top flight guys.	40:27
Clarence V. White	I was awarded the Bronze Star. I was put in for the Silver Star, but we had a old Virginia captain, and the man was prejudiced. There was no doubt about it, because he didn't push my recommendation through for the Silver Star. He did for the Bronze Star, but not for the Silver Star. Because the Silver Star, there's only one more award you can win in service for valor higher than the Silver Star, and that's the Congressional Medal of Honor.	41:30
Clarence V. White	But heck, man, I've had a hell of a life. Ay, good Lord, eh? The world owes me nothing. I've had some good times. I've had some bad times. I've had some hard times like everybody else. But service-wise, I can't—Now, segregation? No. I understand that it's rough, very rough for a Black person in service now. It always has been during peace time because Blacks, Chicanos and all that, we're supposed to be, as they say, fodder for the cannon. In other words, expendable during the wartime. Go out, give it up. But during peace time, they don't want you around. Don't want you around during peace time. It's sad.	42:25
Clarence V. White	But tell you something, Paul, the world's not going to change. Oh, there are a lot of us who wish it would, but the hard, bare facts is human nature being what it is, and looking back down through history, it's not going to change. To prove my point—I know I'm getting way off the subject now, but a lot of people are always shocked at the way Germany ends up each time trying to trounce on the whole world. But all you have to do is look up the word German in the dictionary, Germanic people. It says in a dictionary, "a war-like people." There is no way you're going to be peaceful with Germans for long. Well, Paul, that's just their nature, unfortunately. Now that East Germany and West Germany has—Nazism is on the rise so fast over they gate. Paul, I may not be around, but I'd say within 20 or 30 years from now, Germany's going to make the world tremble again. They will.	43:32
Paul Ortiz	Back to when you were growing up in North Carolina, do you remember anything in the way of health facilities? I mean, what do people do [indistinct 00:44:57]	44:45
Clarence V. White	In Johnston County, see, the reason I only say for Johnston County, because the counties in North Carolina, unlike all other counties or, say, other states, I don't know about other states. Well, New York is not like that. The counties in North Carolina operate so independent and different from one another. There's no uniformity of counties the way they operate in North Carolina. One county will have these rules and regulations, another county different, and every county is different. So I can say as far as Johnston County was concerned, I would say your health department was the only time a lot of those youngsters ever got to see a doctor or dental care because the dentist came around annually to the schools.	44:57
Paul Ortiz	From the health department?	45:56
Clarence V. White	Yeah. Everybody, they made sure you received all your vaccination for smallpox and mumps and all those vaccinations that you were supposed to receive. That came around right around to the schools, period. Did they do it here, Uncle Joe, in Wake County?	45:57
Uncle Joe	You go ahead.	46:17
Clarence V. White	But that's the way it was in Johnston County. See. Because as I think back, in Johnston County, far as I know, there was no hospital for Blacks. Most of the illnesses were taken care of by home remedies. Going to a doctor, usually that's why I think a lot of Blacks died before their time because by the time, more often than not, when they did get to see a doctor, it was too late. It was far too late. I know people have—Good Lord, it was rough in many senses because if the thunder and lightning didn't kill you in the summer, or you didn't fall off a log crossing the swollen creek or river and drown, if you didn't step on a rusty nail and get blood poisoning and die, if you didn't get bitten by a water moccasin or a rattlesnake and die, or if you didn't fall in an abandoned well—That was the rural South. That was it. That was the life.	46:18

Clarence V. White	It was just really rough. It really was. It really there. But now you had your pitfalls in the major cities too. Only thing is you didn't have the, well, you didn't have the summer veracity of storms, lightning and all that stuff. And he didn't have the rivers and streams to contend with and the snakes to contend with and all that as you did down here. But it was rough.	0:03
Paul Ortiz	Do you remember how your father got along with the owner of the land when it came up time to settle the share? Was it—	0:38
Clarence V. White	Yeah, I remember he never got out of debt. He never ever got out of debt. And I remember a couple of times my father came home to get his shotgun. He was going to kill that old man, little White man, because he was sure the man was cheating him. And my grandmother, and I mean, she tackled him physically to stop him each time. Because my father, he was a easy man, a wonderful man, but when the man got angry, it was like all he could see was blood. That that was it. All he could see was blood. He had trouble with one. And then eventually the White man that ginned his cotton crop told him, says, "Look, my father's name was Solomon," said, "You don't have to stay here and take this no longer."	0:55
Clarence V. White	He says, "I have a nice place. Why don't you move down on my land?" And he did. And I understand that the, I think I went there about twice, maybe twice. But I understand they had a very good relationship. But the land was just so poor, there wasn't a whole lot you could do with it. The land was just poor. Some land was poor. And rocky, and I don't care how you could grow things, but you just didn't grow an abundance of nothing. You just broke your back really for minimum. Wasn't that somebody walked by here?	1:59
Uncle Joe	Just a meter reader.	2:53
Paul Ortiz	In Johnston County, where did the farmers get their news from?	2:57
Clarence V. White	My father got his from the radio. He had a battery powered radio as most people in around that area did. Because we didn't live any place close to an electric line. The nearest power line was, oh, a good three or four miles, maybe farther, from where we lived. And they occasionally, when he'd go out to the—What do you call that? The country store. He'd buy a newspaper, but by the time he'd buy it, paper be probably two, a week or two weeks old, something like that. And he would've already heard about it on the radio anyway.	3:04
Paul Ortiz	So it's kind of redundant.	4:02
Clarence V. White	Yeah.	4:03
Paul Ortiz	Do you remember when you were growing up having heroes? Sports heroes, music?	4:04
Clarence V. White	Yeah. My heroes were—I had quite a few. I think most boys when they grew up back then, Jesse Owens was one of the most outstanding, I think, athletes. Well, well let me tell you, prominent athletes. Two boys, Black boys back then. And oh God, I see his face. He was a great baritone singer, opera singer. Yeah. Warfield. Was it Uncle Joe? Warfield. Good Lord. What was—	4:14
Paul Ortiz	Paul Warfield?	5:11
Clarence V. White	Paul Warfield I think was his hame.	5:13
Uncle Joe	You talking about Paul Robeson?	5:13
Clarence V. White	Robeson.	5:13
Paul Ortiz	Robeson.	5:13
Clarence V. White	Robeson. Paul Robeson. Yes. Robeson, mainly because, and Jack Johnson, because these men were fearless. Jack Johnson, he fought in places where they told him, "Nigger, if you come here, we going to kill you. You'll never get out of here alive. We'll lynch you." It didn't phase Jack Johnson. He went and fought anyway. Men like Sam Langford, men that you've never heard of. He was called the Boston Tar Baby. He was a great, great fighter back during the Jack Dempsey days.	5:18
Clarence V. White	He offered to fight Jack Dempsey, free of charge, told Jack Dempsey, "You can take all the money. I'll fight you just to fight you and beat you." Jack Dempsey never fought him. Jack Dempsey never fought no Black man. Let's see, who else? Paul Robeson simply because he was such a great athlete. A lot of people know him only as a singer, but he was a great, great athlete. Paul Robeson, I think he went to—Oh God, there in New Jersey. What was his name of college?	6:02
Paul Ortiz	He went to Princeton.	6:41
Clarence V. White	Princeton, I believe it was. Yeah. And he won athletic letters, Princeton. He set records of Princeton that still stand this very day. He was a big man. He was a robust man, a very strong man. And I see his face. He won from Carlisle, Pennsylvania. What was his name? The Indian. Oh God.	6:44
Paul Ortiz	Jim Thorpe?	7:17
Clarence V. White	Yes. Jim Thorpe was a great hero of mine. Great, great hero of mine. Because against all kind of odds, and the man tried his best to deny him his just desserts. But eventually he did. But posthumously, the man is, it's like people run and buying you flowers at your funeral. Don't give me no flowers at my funeral. I can't smell them. Give them to me now. And he was a great man. And there were many, many others. My father was, I admired him. I always said I wanted to be at least as strong as he was.	7:18
Paul Ortiz	Do you remember any events when you were growing up that you thought of as political? Do you remember getting involved in any—have any political views on any—	8:05
Clarence V. White	No, not when I was growing up. I don't know. Politics, the only thing that I was—I think most Black people, male or female back then, we were so Roosevelt oriented until you couldn't see beyond Roosevelt back then. I used to do, I do remember as a boy, I used to enjoy listening on the radio, listening to the convention, delegates when they be trying to delegate a nominee to run for president. And I used to love to sit and listen to that. I could listen to it for hours. It was fascinating to me. I don't really know why, but it was fascinating to me. And Roosevelt, he was I guess—And to tell you the honest truth, well, I guess right down to it, Roosevelt really didn't do all that much for Blacks. His wife, Eleanor, did more for Blacks than Roosevelt himself did. I don't know. We always tend to get things kind of mixed up and confused.	8:25
Clarence V. White	We think that John Kennedy did an awful lot for Blacks, but he did not. It was Robert Kennedy was the man behind John Kennedy. Robert Kennedy was the rock behind John Kennedy. And Truman did quite a bit for Blacks. But the man that really, I think, in my way that did a lot for Blacks to help Blacks was Lyndon Banes Johnson. And the man never got the notoriety that he deserved. Lyndon Banes Johnson, that old Texan, the man was nothing but the truth. And that's a fact of life. And one of my greatest heroes also was a man named Adam Clayton Powell. Great man. Great, great man. Unbelievably a great man.	9:49
Paul Ortiz	When did you first hear or learn about Adam Clayton?	10:46
Clarence V. White	Oh gosh, a very early age. I used to even go to his church. I attended to his church. I've met the man shook and many times.	10:50
Paul Ortiz	Now which church was that?	11:02
Clarence V. White	Abyssinian Baptist Church in Harlem. Yes, he was a great man, Adam Clayton Powell. That was another man. People, we are all imperfect. And Adam had his fault like any other man because he was not an immortal, he was a mere mortal. He was a man. And if you had ever seen Adam, Adam was a ladies man. Adam Clayton Powell was about, he was about your height for about 6' 1", 6' 2". Handsome as could be. Women fell at his feet. [indistinct 00:11:45]. Now But Adam took care of business. Adam Clayton Powell's church, Abyssinian Baptist Church, they did something. They gave something back to the community. In that church they ran an unemployment office. You could go—	11:06
Clarence V. White	All right, you couldn't get no job on Wall Street out of there, but you could get a job. He had an unemployment office, legal services. You could go there if you had need of lawyers. That church was provided, put you in contact and provided free of charge. They took care of elderly, homeless. They paid their rent, bought the food. Adam Clayton Powell. That man walked the streets in Harlem. Not just taught, walked the streets in Harlem and picketed stores and soft drink trucks and beer trucks and said, "If you can't hire Blacks, you can't sell it in Harlem. Don't bring it here. We'll keep it out of here."	12:05
Clarence V. White	Yes, that man, now God bless him. Wonderful man. Wonderful man. Yes, yes. Abyssinian Baptist Church was a huge church. And you could always tell when Adam Clayton Powell would be there on Sundays. Every newspaper columnist almost in New York City, The New York Times, Daily News, you had a lot of newspapers in New York back then, would be there together. Every word that fell out Adam Clayton Powell's mouth. Yes, sir. And every mayor. Now I can remember back from LaGuardia. I can remember back from LaGuardia on up. Back then when Adam Clayton Powell was in power, every mayor when Adam Clayton Powell would be there, that church on Sundays, every one of them mayors, each mayor would be there because they wanted his support. Yes, sir.	12:57
Paul Ortiz	So you went to Abyssinian with your mom?	14:08
Clarence V. White	Yeah. Mm-hmm.	14:10
Clarence V. White	So that—	14:13
Paul Ortiz	That was back in, oh gosh, 1930, late '30s, '40s on up through the '50s. I never was a member, but it was a place you enjoyed going. You enjoyed it.	14:15
Clarence V. White	Were there social activities?	14:39
Paul Ortiz	Yes, but I never participated in them. Yes, they had a lot of social activities there, but I didn't participate in them. I just enjoyed going to the services because it was an organized service. I don't like these services where they do all that jumping up and down and shouting and jumping all over the place. I like a orderly service, nice choirs, singing. And I don't like long drawn out services. Excuse me. Abyssinian Baptist church held two services each Sunday. I think the first service was 9:00 service. And then you had 11:00 service. 9:00 service, it started promptly at 9:00, you got out of there, I think, around 10:15 or 10:20. 11:00 service started promptly at 11:00. You got out there at 11:30 promptly. It was no from 11:00 until 2:00 in the day and all that out.	14:42
Clarence V. White	So you weren't into the revival kind of—	15:49
Paul Ortiz	No, no, no. Not my thing. I don't knock it for anyone that like it, but it's not my thing.	15:52
Clarence V. White	Did you stay at that church throughout your life?	16:02
Paul Ortiz	No, no. Eventually my first marriage, my wife was of Jamaican descent. In other words, her mother was from Jamaica West Indies. And most Jamaicans are of Episcopalian faith. Episcopalian is like Catholicism. And I enjoyed that religion. I enjoyed that very much too. So I attended the Episcopal church. Oh, I'd say from 1955 through 1970.	16:04
Clarence V. White	But now, was your mom still alive when you were married?	16:52
Paul Ortiz	No.	16:55
Paul Ortiz	No, she wasn't.	16:55
Clarence V. White	No.	16:56
Paul Ortiz	I'm kind of curious. Your wife was from Jamaica, when you and she married, what did your family think about that?	16:58
Clarence V. White	Nothing.	17:10
Paul Ortiz	Nothing?	17:10
Clarence V. White	Mm-mm. No, because she's Black. Nothing. And you got to remember, Jamaicans, they were from ex-slaves too. They're from ex-slaves. Jamaicans, Haitians. Most of those islands where there are Blacks, they were brought there as slaves originally. No. They didn't think anything. They didn't think anything of it.	17:17
Paul Ortiz	What were some of her interests?	17:50
Clarence V. White	Oh, she was a very, very nice person. Her family was very, very poor. But Jamaicans are very educated oriented. Now they get that education. She had two sisters and a brother. And her brother graduated from—God, one of the most prestigious music schools in New York City. Julliard. He had an offer to direct the Australian Symphony Orchestra. And to make a long story short, he is today assistant superintendent of schools in Inglewood, New Jersey. Her two sisters, which were older than her, they both were RNs, but they're both deceased, her sisters are. My wife was a legal secretary.	17:53
Paul Ortiz	You talked about Adam Clayton Powell a bit. Do you remember any growing up in New York, or as a young man, any political disputes in that area that you read about or took part in or?	19:12
Clarence V. White	Well, as a young man, after I got up in my 20s, I became very, very politically active. I used to campaign for Adam Clayton Powell. I eventually, I campaigned for Shirley Chisholm. The last person I campaigned for and did a little political work for was David Dinkins, the ex mayor of New York. Most of New York City's mayor races were always had a bit of a racial overtone to it. Whether both candidates, and until, let's see, I think Dinkins. Was Dinkins the first candidate, Black candidate, that ran for mayor of New York? I believe it was. And they were always all White, but it was always somehow made a Black, White issue there.	19:31
Clarence V. White	One guy would be more or less for—or they would paint it that way. Blacks giving Blacks more say so, and reporting more Blacks to different positions in the city government than the other candidate. Like this present mayor, Giuliani. Now Giuliani, I don't know whether the mayor's going to be any better or any worse than any previous mayors, but I do know that years ago when he ran against David Dinkins, everybody said that he was strictly anti-Black. Well, I don't know whether he is or not. Maybe so. I do know that it's sad to say this, but I have to call it like I've seen it all my life.	20:52
Clarence V. White	I respect the Irish population in New York. I respect the German population in New York. And I'll be honest with you, I have very, very little respect for Jews in New York because the Jewish people have always used—He's shrewd. He uses an opportunity. He takes advantage and uses an opportunity. For instance, now I can remember one time when I was a little boy in a little town in Johnston County called Smithfield, there was only one place in downtown Smithfield, as small as this little place was, that a Black man could get something to eat, which was a Frankfurter or a hamburger, and something to drink, a beer or a soda.	21:55
Clarence V. White	Well, when the people, farmers White and Black, go into town on Saturdays, everybody would congregate around this place. Now, the guy that ran was an old Jew. This man did this religiously. Now I'm not talking about what I heard. I've stood there and I have seen it with my own eyes. I was a little boy. What this Jew would do, he'd sell a Black guy, man, maybe two beers. Then, when they came around to that third one, he'd tell you, "You didn't pay me for the other two." Man said, "Yes, I did. I paid you for the other two." That Jew went arguing. Next thing you know, there'd be two big burly White cops that'd beat the hell out of that Black man and haul his butt off to jail. And that happened every Saturday.	22:55
Clarence V. White	But the Jew, he made his money off mainly the Blacks because the White people of the town, they didn't trade with that Jew. They couldn't stand him. See, Black people, we were fool, a lot of us were a fool, didn't believe. "Oh the Jew, he likes you, he's your friend." The natural fact was this. And a lot of his businesses, other otherwise years ago didn't want to work for him. They hated him so much they wouldn't work for him. They'd go without a job rather than to work for the Jew. You see? That's a fact. Now that there's a tremendous influx of Hispanics, Puerto Ricans have come into New York.	23:53
Clarence V. White	The Jew, now almost his job, he won't hire Black man. He hired Puerto Ricans. He won't hire Black man. He ain't want no part to you now. And every time that I've ever been called a Nigger, has always been by Jew. Nothing else but a Jew in New York. A Jew would call you a Nigger quicker than you can pop your finger. And they're very racial. Very, very racial. And what the Jew cries about the Holocaust, I'm not saying that it did not happen and I'm not saying it was right. Anytime man, injustice to man, is wrong. I don't care to whom it's done to, is wrong. But now look at it this way. What he's doing to the Arabs, the Jews doing the same thing to the Arabs as Hitler did to them.	24:45
Clarence V. White	Now what's the difference? If you've been so persecuted, you certainly don't want to do somebody else like that. Yet they're doing it and getting away with it. The world is letting them get away with it. They're doing the safe. Yet, every time someone you've, I've seen some talk show, someone that mentioned it to Jews, how they're treating the Arabs. Right away, they will switch the whole thing and jump on this Holocaust thing.	25:46
Uncle Joe	How much more you all got now?	26:18
Clarence V. White	We're just finished [indistinct 00:26:21]. But that's wrong. Oh, because that's right, she got to go. But that's wrong, Paul. Don't care for them, that tough.	26:20
Paul Ortiz	Do you remember when the civil rights movement started? What did you think about that?	26:31
Clarence V. White	Man, I tell you, I was so happy. I was scared, but I was happy. I was scared for, because in New York, I wasn't really directly involved. I was afraid for the people that were all down south. I was afraid that there'd be so much killing. I was afraid there was going to be a whole lot more killing than there actually was and I was afraid for the people. I was frightened to death, but I was very proud. Very proud.	26:38
Paul Ortiz	So it was something you really mainly would watch or listen [indistinct 00:27:17]?	27:13
Clarence V. White	Yes, mm-hmm. Oh, yes. Alex Haley is another one of my heroes.	27:17
Paul Ortiz	So if you had to, I guess, sum up your life and kind of connect the past to the present and where would you [indistinct 00:27:38]?	27:29
Clarence V. White	I would say, Paul, we've come a long way, but we have a long way to go. Not only Blacks as far as equal rights are concerned, but Whites as well because this is not a divided earth. This is but one earth. Now true enough, the Caucasian would like very much for it to be a divided earth. For instance, every time you sit down, look at TV, you see these hate groups on there and the skin heads and the Ku Klux Klan, and they keep talking about the Black man should go back to Africa.	27:37
Clarence V. White	What? What? Now who's going back where? He don't belong here either. If anybody's going back, you go back. Particularly Northern Whites, their roots don't go back anymore than maybe two generations at most. Now you know this is a multiracial society here. It's like a lot of people don't realize Mexican-Americans got a whole lot more rights and claims of this country than the so-called—What do you call them? They White man really does because they've been here. You understand?	28:17
Clarence V. White	Now any Caucasian that does not like the multiracial society, they don't have to stay here. There are plenty countries in Europe where it's all White. Go there and live there. Now what? Man, look, I got $5 in my pocket to help you. If you get enough $5, you can get out of here. You don't have no trouble. Don't let airfare, nothing stop you. Come to me, I'll give you your first $5. You collect a few more, you can go. You see? And I wish that mans in humanity to man would cease and stop because we're all on this earth a preciously short time. Even if some of us are like enough to live a century, 100 years go by so fast. So fast. It's a fleeting moment in history. 100 is only a fleeting moment in history. And I wish that we Blacks would bond together a lot closer. A lot closer.	29:02
Clarence V. White	Because this is a open hand, just five fingers. That's a fist, that can hurt you. This can sting you, but it won't hurt you. That can hurt you. If we overcome fist, we can do something. And I am sick and tired of we Blacks keep talking about what the White man owes us. Man, forget that. Go do it for yourself. Don't wait for somebody to do it for you. There ain't nobody going to ever do it for you. White man's White. He's looking out for his own as it should be. It's time we start looking out for ourselves and our own. It's that simple. We all look at things is Black man has the greatest opportunity on this earth, but I think we squandered it or we just fail to see it.	30:10
Clarence V. White	The White man, he loves that almighty dollar. That almighty dollar is his God. He'll sell his mama to get that dollar. Now all of Black man got to do in this country is sell General Motors. And we got to be unified. We're not buying another General Motors product until you give up, say, $50 million to the Black cause. You think they ain't going to cough it up? They'll cough it up. Most Blacks drink Pepsi-Cola. Tap Pepsi, all these outfits the same thing. You get money. As far as starting Black businesses, if every Black male in this country donated $2 per head, do you know what? We'd end up with about $30 million. $30 million, you can do quite a bit with $30 million.	31:09
Clarence V. White	You can start a co-op. You can build some homes for young Blacks in our own neighborhoods. We see crack dens and so forth. Man, don't wait for the police to do it. Band together and put them down and put them down hard. Clean up your own neighborhoods. Clean up your own neighborhoods. Don't always run to the White man's neighborhood. Clean up your own neighborhoods. Do your own policing. That's what we need to do, Paul. So in essence, I say this, it's a wonderful world. God blessed us. He built us a wonderful world. White man is hell bent on leather and destroying it and he's doing it at an alarming rate environmental-wise.	32:05
Clarence V. White	Race-wise and all that other stuff, the Oriental, Blacks, everybody that keep waiting around for the White man to change his mind, forget it. He ain't going to ever change. It's the hard truth. He's not going to change. There will be periods when things will get better, but then history just—It's a revolving door. They go right back to where it was. You look around you right now, Ku Klux Klan groups, skinhead groups, on the rises in this country at an alarming rate. And believe me, they are a whole lot more violent than that old Ku Klux Klan gang was.	32:57
Clarence V. White	Brother, they don't care. Jew, Mexican-American, they don't care nothing about you. They don't care nothing about you. They are for one society, area in society. That's it. Everything else got to go. That number one thing, the Jews and the Blacks. Then they'll get around to you old Paul, Mexican-American. They start getting around. Believe me, people say, "Well, I'm White, so they wouldn't—" Eventually, they'll get around to you. So in essence, I think this what you all are doing, Paul, is worthwhile. I wish you the very best. I just wish that there were more Blacks involved in it too.	33:41
Clarence V. White	So that we don't have to sit around and say, "Well—" Because Uncle Joe and I, be honest with you, we were discussing and said, he asked me if I'd ever met you. I said, "No." And I think the person came up said, "Well, what if he's Black one?" I said, "Well, I'm sure he must be Black. Because what White person would be interested?" We got a shock. But it's a pleasure. It's been a pleasure.	34:37
Paul Ortiz	It's been—	35:06

Item Info

Title:

Clarence White interview recording, 1993 February 04

Date:

February 4, 1993

Creator:

White, Clarence V.

Contributor:

Ortiz, Paul

Description:

Name: Clarence V. White; Date of birth: 1934-02-14; Place of birth: Johnston Co., NC; Occupation(s): teamster?; Residence: Raleigh, NC
Informant ID: 338; Interviewed by: Paul Ortiz.

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Teamster

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Language:

English

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Behind the Veil

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Behind the Veil: Documenting African American Life in the Jim Crow South interviews, photographs, and project records, circa 1864-2011, bulk 1990-2004

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The David M. Rubenstein Rare Book and Manuscript Library acquired the Records of the Behind the Veil Oral History Project from the Duke University Center for Documentary Studies in 1997, 1998, 2000, and 2002.

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Copyright for content created by the Behind the Veil project is held by Duke University and made available to the public using a Creative Commons Attribution / Non-commercial (CC-BY-NC) license.

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Interview number: 347
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Clarence White interview recording, 1993 February 04

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1. Clarence White administrative file, 1993

John Hope Franklin Research Center

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