Peggy Tapp interview recording, 1994 June 08

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Felix Armfield	June today is June 8th, 1994. My name is Felix Armfield. I'm the interviewer and I'm at The Chicken Hut down on Fairfield street in Durham, North Carolina. I'm about to interview and Miss Peggy J. Tapp, who is along with her husband, the owner of The Chicken Hut on Fairfield Street. Miss Tapp, would you just start out by just telling me a little bit about yourself and how long you've been here in Durham and just a little bit about yourself and background?	0:11
Peggy Tapp	Okay. Telling you about myself. I was born here in Durham. I've been here all my life and I doubt seriously if I'd move at this point.	0:50
Felix Armfield	Okay, great.	0:57
Peggy Tapp	And try to start over again. I started working with The Chicken Box with Mr. Tapp when I was 16, and we have worked together since then, which has been a struggle.	0:59
Felix Armfield	Okay.	1:23
Peggy Tapp	Very hard struggle because at that particular time there was segregation.	1:23
Felix Armfield	Okay. What time? Can you put a time frame on that?	1:40
Peggy Tapp	This was like in 1957.	1:47
Felix Armfield	Okay. Around 1957?	1:47
Peggy Tapp	Yes.	1:47
Felix Armfield	Still in the late 1950s. What was it like when you say it was a struggle? What was the struggle itself all about?	1:48
Peggy Tapp	Well, the struggle was at that particular time, well, the type of people we depended on were like—which we still do, and they supported our business through the years, they followed us through the years—the low income.	1:56
Felix Armfield	Okay.	2:18
Peggy Tapp	The poverty-stricken, the welfare. These people are the ones who really supported us. Yeah. We've had support from others, but then we even had a worse time when integration set in.	2:18
Felix Armfield	Oh, really?	2:35
Peggy Tapp	Because at this time, we found that, I guess maybe we, as Blacks found out, we could go maybe to the hotels and the restaurants.	2:36
Felix Armfield	Yeah.	2:52
Peggy Tapp	We could sit any place. This set us a little bit behind, because at that time we offered catering and banquet, which we had a banquet room, but then they sort of got away from that.	2:53
Felix Armfield	Okay.	3:08
Peggy Tapp	They started like with the hotels and whatever.	3:08
Felix Armfield	Since integration, it hurt the business?	3:13
Peggy Tapp	It did.	3:18
Felix Armfield	What would you say is the reason?	3:18
Peggy Tapp	It was good in one sense.	3:18
Felix Armfield	Okay.	3:18
Peggy Tapp	And bad in another, because that's when we started like going away from our Blacks.	3:18
Felix Armfield	Okay.	3:28
Peggy Tapp	Supporting them.	3:28
Felix Armfield	I see. You said you've been here in Durham since you were born?	3:28
Peggy Tapp	I was born here. Yes.	3:28
Felix Armfield	When were you born here?	3:28
Peggy Tapp	1940.	3:28
Felix Armfield	Okay. You're born in 1940.	3:40
Peggy Tapp	Mm-hmm.	3:43
Felix Armfield	Can you tell me a little bit about your early childhood here in Durham, in the 1940s?	3:44
Peggy Tapp	Well, I can tell a lot about growing up. I came from a large family and we were a very close-knit family. We had a hard time. My parents worked very hard. We didn't have what maybe others had, but they made it comfortable the best they could.	3:46
Felix Armfield	What type of work did your parents do?	4:16
Peggy Tapp	Well, my father worked in American Tobacco Factory and my mother was, well, she had a lot of occupations. She was a maid.	4:16
Felix Armfield	Okay.	4:27
Peggy Tapp	She did nurse work. And then in the evenings, about six o'clock, she would go and clean up for White people.	4:28
Felix Armfield	Okay. When you say your mother was a maid, who was she being maid for?	4:38
Peggy Tapp	For? Okay. She was for the Duke family.	4:43
Felix Armfield	Your mother was a maid for the Duke family?	4:45
Peggy Tapp	Right.	4:45
Felix Armfield	That's interesting.	4:45
Peggy Tapp	Okay. She worked with them for 46 years.	4:46
Felix Armfield	Really? Well, now, what was your mother's name?	4:54
Peggy Tapp	Her name was Elizabeth Johnson.	4:54
Felix Armfield	Elizabeth Johnson?	5:00
Peggy Tapp	Yes.	5:00
Felix Armfield	Okay. Now, and your father's name was?	5:01
Peggy Tapp	Albert Johnson.	5:01
Felix Armfield	Albert Johnson?	5:07
Peggy Tapp	Yeah.	5:08
Felix Armfield	He worked for the American Tobacco Factory?	5:08
Peggy Tapp	Right.	5:08
Felix Armfield	What end of town did you all live on?	5:08
Peggy Tapp	The West End.	5:08
Felix Armfield	Okay. Now West End being what street now in—	5:16
Peggy Tapp	Okay. That's in the, I would say, the west part of Durham.	5:19
Felix Armfield	Okay. Now, can you give me a street name now? What's over there?	5:24
Peggy Tapp	Yeah, Kent Street. It runs off Wade Avenue.	5:31
Felix Armfield	Okay.	5:34
Peggy Tapp	Okay. Coming back from Duke University.	5:36
Felix Armfield	Okay, so you lived over on that end of town?	5:39
Peggy Tapp	Yes, uh-huh.	5:39
Felix Armfield	How many children were in family? You say you came from a large family.	5:39
Peggy Tapp	There were six of us.	5:45
Felix Armfield	Okay.	5:46
Peggy Tapp	Not including the ones that my mother took in off the street and our friends and whatever.	5:46
Felix Armfield	There was clearly—	5:54
Peggy Tapp	There were a lot. Back then, everybody was a family.	5:54
Felix Armfield	Everybody was family.	5:57
Peggy Tapp	Right.	5:57
Felix Armfield	Everybody was family. From the ghetto, what do you mean by the ghetto?	5:58
Peggy Tapp	Well, from the area where people looked at us as people that would probably not do anything in life or with their lives.	6:07
Felix Armfield	Yeah.	6:20
Peggy Tapp	The West End has been most successful with lots of successful people coming out.	6:23
Felix Armfield	Okay. Okay. So, well, tell me a little bit about that West End, then.	6:30
Peggy Tapp	Well—	6:35
Felix Armfield	How did the West End differ from—	6:35
Peggy Tapp	Well, you had areas where this type of our class of people lived and that type of class of people lived and everybody was classed.	6:36
Felix Armfield	Okay. We're going to talk about those class structures when we come back.	6:51
Peggy Tapp	Okay.	6:53
Felix Armfield	Would you just sort of continue talking about those—	6:53
Peggy Tapp	Classes?	6:53
Felix Armfield	Class structures that you're talking about.	6:58
Peggy Tapp	Okay. Now, when I say class, I mean, like there were children that we were in school with and their parents were able to be teachers and doctors and lawyers and principals and whatever, so this is what I mean by the different to me.	6:59
Felix Armfield	Did you all live in the same neighborhoods?	7:23
Peggy Tapp	No.	7:24
Felix Armfield	Okay.	7:24
Peggy Tapp	This is what I mean. One part of town, other part of town.	7:25
Felix Armfield	Okay. Where did the people who could afford the—	7:31
Peggy Tapp	Okay. They were on this side of town. Like Fayetteville Street.	7:34
Felix Armfield	Okay.	7:40
Peggy Tapp	Believe it or not.	7:41
Felix Armfield	In and down Fayetteville Street area.	7:42
Peggy Tapp	Area. Right.	7:44
Felix Armfield	Those of you came from backgrounds where parents were more or less working class people—	7:45
Peggy Tapp	Right.	7:49
Felix Armfield	They were on what was called the West End?	7:50
Peggy Tapp	Right. Law Town, North Durham.	7:53
Felix Armfield	Okay.	7:56
Peggy Tapp	Those places. But when you got to this area, a little bit above Burthey Funeral Home.	7:57
Felix Armfield	Okay.	8:00
Peggy Tapp	On whatever, in that area you, this is where you start finding the change.	8:05
Felix Armfield	You didn't attend schools with these children?	8:20
Peggy Tapp	Of course we did.	8:21
Felix Armfield	Oh, you did attend schools with them?	8:21
Peggy Tapp	Yes, uh-huh. We were classmates. Where at this particular time we were like—that's my son in the blue t-shirt.	8:25
Felix Armfield	Okay.	8:34
Peggy Tapp	That's his cousin and the White t-shirt. Okay. It was like, we were all in school. We met together when we got to high school.	8:35
Felix Armfield	Okay.	8:43
Peggy Tapp	Because at this particular time, the school—	8:43
Felix Armfield	Now, what time period are we talking about here?	8:47
Peggy Tapp	Okay. In high school, you're talking about in the early '50s.	8:47
Felix Armfield	Okay. The early '50s.	8:52
Peggy Tapp	Mm-hmm.	8:55
Felix Armfield	This is still prior to days before integration.	8:55
Peggy Tapp	Yeah, because integration, yeah, didn't set in until the '60s.	8:58
Felix Armfield	Okay.	9:01
Peggy Tapp	Right?	9:01
Felix Armfield	Yeah.	9:03
Peggy Tapp	Okay. Because when I finished high school, we were still riding the back of the bus.	9:04
Felix Armfield	Okay.	9:08
Peggy Tapp	Okay. We were still going to Colored this and Colored that and going in back doors and all of this.	9:09
Felix Armfield	When you say ride the bus, what was that experience?	9:17
Peggy Tapp	Boom. I don't know how I went through that. It's unbelievable. Because you got on the bus, and when I was in school, we would have to catch the bus from school to Five Points, which is another part, and then get on another bus to bring us to where we live. You getting on the bus downtown and the bus, there are plenty of seats up front. The bus driver says we would actually sit down in these seats, the front seats. And then he would say, I never will forget. He would say, "If you don't get up, I'm going to put you off or either get the police." And then we only had White police. Well, they started hiring Blacks, but the only problem was the Blacks couldn't arrest.	9:20
Felix Armfield	Really?	10:14
Peggy Tapp	It was just a White.	10:14
Felix Armfield	Black officers here in Durham, those first Black officers that—	10:16
Peggy Tapp	Could not arrest.	10:25
Felix Armfield	This was still sometime in, throughout the 1950s?	10:25
Peggy Tapp	Right.	10:25
Felix Armfield	So if there were Black officers, they couldn't arrest anyone.	10:25
Peggy Tapp	No.	10:25
Felix Armfield	Not Black nor White? Could the arrest Black people?	10:25
Peggy Tapp	No, they couldn't. They could arrest Blacks, but they couldn't touch the White.	10:26
Felix Armfield	They could not arrest Whites. Isn't that interesting?	10:38
Peggy Tapp	I tell you, it's unbelievable.	10:38
Felix Armfield	Where did you attend school?	10:38
Peggy Tapp	Elementary school, Hills—I'm sorry, Lion Park.	10:40
Felix Armfield	Where is that?	10:44
Peggy Tapp	That's on-	10:44
Felix Armfield	Lion Park?	10:44
Peggy Tapp	Uh-huh. That's on the corner of Halley and Kent and the school has closed down. They closed the school down.	10:44
Felix Armfield	Okay.	10:53
Peggy Tapp	I went to junior high at Whitted School, and from there I went to Hillside.	10:53
Felix Armfield	You finished high school—	11:03
Peggy Tapp	Hillside, mm-hmm.	11:03
Felix Armfield	Hillside. Now, is Hillside, was that the all-Black high school?	11:04
Peggy Tapp	That was the only, well we had a county all-Black and a city all-White [read: Black]. Hillside was a city all-White [read: Black] and Merrick Moore was the all-Black.	11:08
Felix Armfield	Okay. Those of you from the city limits—	11:19
Peggy Tapp	Went to Hillside.	11:20
Felix Armfield	Went to Hillside.	11:20
Peggy Tapp	From everywhere, all over the city.	11:22
Felix Armfield	All over Durham City, so therefore, you merged in with these children from all different class backgrounds.	11:24
Peggy Tapp	Right.	11:31
Felix Armfield	Regardless of what kind of economic backgrounds they came from.	11:31
Peggy Tapp	Right, right.	11:31
Felix Armfield	How did you feel about that? [crosstalk 00:11:37]. What kind of impact did it have on you?	11:36
Peggy Tapp	Well, we accepted it. We accepted it because this is all we knew.	11:37
Felix Armfield	Okay.	11:46
Peggy Tapp	We didn't know anything about anything else, but it was frightening. For instance, if you may go to a store and you want water or you have to use the restroom and you got to use the Colored and the White, and if you couldn't get in the side that said Colored, you would ask, and I remember so well. I was just a little girl, about 10 years old. A young lady took me with her downtown Durham, and I had to use the bathroom, and my mother just bought me a new coat. The lady told this lady that had me, she said, "Could we just use your bathroom? The little girl has to use the bathroom." She said, no. White lady, but you know, I just thought that was awful.	11:46
Felix Armfield	I'm sure that had to have an impact on you as a 10-year-old child as to why you really couldn't just go in and use the bathroom.	12:41
Peggy Tapp	I tell you.	12:48
Felix Armfield	Yeah.	12:48
Peggy Tapp	We went on with this and then things started breaking with Martin Luther King and others, and it's surprising to me now, I think if Martin Luther King came back, he would be totally upset to see how things are, to me, turning around, just in a different—	12:48
Felix Armfield	What was it in the '40s and '50s that you recall your parents doing that was a clear sign of they did it simply because they were Black?	13:11
Peggy Tapp	Right off, I can't recall anything that they really did. They did so many things.	13:24
Speaker 3	Can I close this?	13:24
Peggy Tapp	Please. I really can't recall anything right now.	13:35
Felix Armfield	Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Now, do you recall anything, any of the specifics of your mother having worked as a maid for the Duke family?	13:41
Peggy Tapp	Well, as my mother working for the Duke family, it didn't make any difference to them. Believe it or not.	13:48
Felix Armfield	The Duke family? It really didn't make a difference to them?	14:00
Peggy Tapp	It made no difference. We were just like their children. I mean, to them, we were invited to their homes. We were treated as their children. We were welcomed into the home in which we did visit them quite often.	14:02
Felix Armfield	Really? Now, where did the Dukes live at this time?	14:20
Peggy Tapp	They lived in Forest Hills.	14:22
Felix Armfield	Okay. Now, that's clearly the White section—	14:22
Peggy Tapp	Right.	14:22
Felix Armfield	Of town.	14:22
Peggy Tapp	Right.	14:22
Felix Armfield	They were out in the Forest Hills area?	14:22
Peggy Tapp	Right.	14:22
Felix Armfield	Now, how was it that your mother was fortunate enough to work for the Dukes? I'm sure there tons of women who were here—	14:22
Peggy Tapp	Yeah.	14:42
Felix Armfield	Who were positive, who may have even saw her job as a real good job working for the Duke family.	14:42
Peggy Tapp	Yeah. But you know what? When my mother was working for the Duke family, when she first started working there, I can remember very well as her bringing home $12, in 50 cent pieces.	14:53
Felix Armfield	Okay, now—	15:03
Peggy Tapp	But that was a lot of money.	15:05
Felix Armfield	When was this time?	15:07
Peggy Tapp	Oh, let me see. I was nine years old, so that was 1949.	15:09
Felix Armfield	Okay. In the late 1940s and she bought this home like per week, or?	15:12
Peggy Tapp	Per week.	15:16
Felix Armfield	Okay. She bought home $12 in 50 cents per week.	15:18
Peggy Tapp	Right.	15:23
Felix Armfield	In 50 cent pieces.	15:23
Peggy Tapp	Pieces in an envelope. I never forget it.	15:23
Felix Armfield	That's how they paid her.	15:26
Peggy Tapp	That's how they paid her.	15:28
Felix Armfield	Really? I can imagine $12.50 may have went a long ways in that time.	15:28
Peggy Tapp	Oh, of course it did.	15:34
Felix Armfield	Yeah.	15:35
Peggy Tapp	Yeah. We did real well.	15:35
Felix Armfield	Really?	15:38
Peggy Tapp	Yeah. Like I say, we didn't have everything, but we lived comfortable for a poor family.	15:38
Felix Armfield	Really? Now, did you find yourself making friends with some of those other children who may have been from professional classes?	15:44
Peggy Tapp	Of course, we did. Of course, we did.	15:50
Felix Armfield	You did have friends who were—	15:50
Peggy Tapp	Right.	15:50
Felix Armfield	Up and down Fayetteville Street.	15:50
Peggy Tapp	And they made us feel good because we say, "Wow, we know this person, we know that person." It was no problem. We became the best of friends.	15:57
Felix Armfield	Really? Who were some of the people on this end of town? Up and down Fayetteville Street?	16:06
Peggy Tapp	Well, I was—	16:11
Felix Armfield	That you were calling and what were some of the things that they did?	16:11
Peggy Tapp	Okay. Well, the Schoolers-	16:11
Felix Armfield	The Schoolers?	16:20
Peggy Tapp	J.M. Schooler.	16:23
Felix Armfield	Okay.	16:25
Peggy Tapp	His wife was a teacher and he was the first principal that I knew in elementary school, and unfortunately he followed us. I don't know how it worked, but when I got to junior high, he was there.	16:25
Felix Armfield	Unfortunately?	16:39
Peggy Tapp	Mm-hmm. Yep.	16:39
Felix Armfield	Sounds like he was probably one of those strict disciplinarians.	16:39
Peggy Tapp	Oh, he was. He was good.	16:40
Felix Armfield	Really?	16:47
Peggy Tapp	Yeah. And hen when I got to high school, I met his children.	16:47
Felix Armfield	Okay.	16:53
Peggy Tapp	We became the best of friends.	16:53
Felix Armfield	Okay.	16:54
Peggy Tapp	And there was no problem.	16:54
Felix Armfield	Okay. What was school like then? Tell me a little bit about your school days.	16:54
Peggy Tapp	Well, school was good.	16:54
Felix Armfield	Okay.	16:54
Peggy Tapp	In fact, I like the way our schools were then more so than today.	16:55
Felix Armfield	Okay. What do you like about the schools then?	17:13
Peggy Tapp	Okay. We learned more. Our teachers took more time with each child, because first of all, at the beginning of the year, couple of days, or week before school opened, the parents—I mean, the teachers would get a list of the home of the students in their homeroom and they would get out and go into the neighborhood and visit the home, so they found out what they were dealing with.	17:15
Felix Armfield	Teachers really sort of developed relationships with—	17:46
Peggy Tapp	They did.	17:52
Felix Armfield	—their children and their families.	17:52
Peggy Tapp	Right. It was like a family.	17:52
Felix Armfield	Exactly.	17:52
Peggy Tapp	We actually learned more, and they'd turn out better students. But today, since the schools are integrated, it's really a problem because—I guess, it's a change in the children today, too. I can't put the total blame on the teachers, but I just don't think our children today as Black children learn—one thing, the time, taking up the time.	17:54
Felix Armfield	Yeah.	18:24
Peggy Tapp	Because you have slow learners and fast learners and whatever. It's just totally different. I know that our White teachers really don't take up the time.	18:25
Felix Armfield	Okay. Interesting. You're saying that that's clearly one of the downfalls of integration?	18:37
Peggy Tapp	Yeah.	18:44
Felix Armfield	Okay. Now, what are your recollections of North Carolina Central University with the college here? There was a Black college in your town.	18:45
Peggy Tapp	Now, they really supported us.	18:52
Felix Armfield	Back in the '40s and '50s? What are some of the-	18:57
Peggy Tapp	Well, I thought that was great because Dr. Shepard. I thought that was great to know Dr. Shepard. I've seen him quite a few times and as a little girl, and I just thought that was great.	18:59
Felix Armfield	You sort of admired this man?	19:16
Peggy Tapp	Right.	19:16
Felix Armfield	Who had founded this college in your hometown.	19:16
Peggy Tapp	Right.	19:21
Felix Armfield	And an all-Black college at that.	19:21
Peggy Tapp	Right. And it's a very popular school.	19:25
Felix Armfield	Yeah. Yeah. What do you recall about your father then? We talked about your mother. What do you recall about your father having worked at—	19:27
Peggy Tapp	American?	19:39
Felix Armfield	Mm-hmm.	19:40
Peggy Tapp	Well, I tell you how my daddy got that job. It's unbelievable. I often talk to him about it. He's almost 80 years old now.	19:41
Felix Armfield	Your father's still alive?	19:51
Peggy Tapp	He's still alive.	19:52
Felix Armfield	What's your father's name?	19:52
Peggy Tapp	His name is Albert Johnson.	19:54
Felix Armfield	Okay.	20:00
Peggy Tapp	As you know, back then, it was like the White superintendents, the White supervisors, everything was White over the Blacks. They would call you all kind of names, anything just to make you leave this job. Because I recall so many times my daddy coming home so upset, just so upset because he'd been called a nigger. These barrels, these big barrels, they had to roll, I guess, they were trying them on the basis of that to see how much work they could do.	20:01
Felix Armfield	Yeah, yeah.	20:34
Peggy Tapp	I think out of his 46 years there, I don't think my daddy missed three days out of work.	20:36
Felix Armfield	He worked there for 46 years?	20:43
Peggy Tapp	And he walked there. Right. He walked there and he would be sick, but he still went to work because he had a family to support, and he didn't want to lose his job, so he toughed it out.	20:43
Felix Armfield	What kind of work did he do?	20:58
Peggy Tapp	Well, he did a little of everything. I think just before he retired, he had been elevated to a night watchman. It took him that long to just get to that.	20:58
Felix Armfield	Yeah. Do you recall what kind of salary? What kind of money he—	21:15
Peggy Tapp	Well,	21:18
Felix Armfield	—perhaps started out making or when he even began working at American?	21:19
Peggy Tapp	I can't remember when. I was a little girl.	21:24
Felix Armfield	Okay.	21:25
Peggy Tapp	Because before then, I remember him washing dishes at Duke University.	21:25
Felix Armfield	Okay. Washing?	21:31
Peggy Tapp	He was a dishwasher.	21:33
Felix Armfield	Over at Duke University.	21:34
Peggy Tapp	Uh-huh.	21:35
Felix Armfield	Really?	21:35
Peggy Tapp	How he got this job at American? I don't know. But to get that job, you had to rate pretty high, back then.	21:35
Felix Armfield	Okay. When you say rate pretty high, what do you mean?	21:44
Peggy Tapp	Well, I don't know. You had to have somebody to help get you in.	21:47
Felix Armfield	Somebody had to give you a good word.	21:51
Peggy Tapp	Somebody had to know. Right.	21:52
Felix Armfield	Really. Well, was it after your father started working for American Tobacco Company, that your mother then began working for the Duke family?	21:54
Peggy Tapp	Yes. Uh-huh.	22:03
Felix Armfield	Okay. Do you think there may have been a connection there?	22:09
Peggy Tapp	No.	22:09
Felix Armfield	How did she manage to get there? Did you ever tell me how she got there?	22:09
Peggy Tapp	No, I didn't tell you. It was like, there was a lady across the street.	22:11
Felix Armfield	From where you all lived?	22:16
Peggy Tapp	Lived on the West End.	22:18
Felix Armfield	Okay.	22:20
Peggy Tapp	That was working for the Duke family.	22:20
Felix Armfield	Okay.	22:22
Peggy Tapp	She knew my mother needed a job. My mother was making it, but she needed a job that she was sure of, and this lady recommended my mother, and these people my mother went to see them. They hired her right off.	22:22
Felix Armfield	So obviously they liked her.	22:38
Peggy Tapp	They liked her. Yeah.	22:42
Felix Armfield	Liked something about her, or surely they liked her.	22:43
Peggy Tapp	Right.	22:47
Felix Armfield	Now, when you say the Duke family, which family in specific that she worked for? Did she clean?	22:47
Peggy Tapp	Well, it was Doris Duke's first cousin. Mary Semans.	22:48
Felix Armfield	Okay.	22:56
Peggy Tapp	Mary Duke Semans.	22:59
Felix Armfield	Okay. Mary Duke.	22:59
Peggy Tapp	Duke. Mm-hmm.	23:00
Felix Armfield	Okay. As a child, where did you go? Where could you go and where couldn't you go being from the West End of town? If you wanted to go to the store, where could? Did you have roam to go to any store you wanted to, or that kind thing? Or where there restrictions as to where you could go as a child? Where you were told that you shouldn't go?	23:03
Peggy Tapp	You mean by my parents?	23:18
Felix Armfield	Mm-hmm.	23:18
Peggy Tapp	Well, yes. Back then you had no other choice, but to mind your parents, so there was a little store in our neighborhood and we were only allowed to go there.	23:19
Felix Armfield	This was a Black-owned store?	23:52
Peggy Tapp	Black-owned store, and we were only allowed to go there. Then, on Sundays we could go to an ice cream parlor, which was owned by Blacks, a few blocks away.	23:56
Felix Armfield	That was a Black ice cream parlor?	24:07
Peggy Tapp	Right. We could only go there only if we went to church and Sunday school.	24:07
Felix Armfield	Okay. That-	24:13
Peggy Tapp	That was a treat.	24:15
Felix Armfield	Yeah. If you went to church, you could have ice cream on Sunday.	24:16
Peggy Tapp	Right.	24:17
Felix Armfield	Where did family attend church?	24:17
Peggy Tapp	At that time? It was Second Baptist. Now it's First Calvary.	24:17
Felix Armfield	It's what?	24:25
Peggy Tapp	First Cavalry. Well, first it was Second Baptist.	24:25
Felix Armfield	Okay.	24:29
Peggy Tapp	Now, it's First Cavalry.	24:29
Felix Armfield	First Calvary. Where is it located?	24:30
Peggy Tapp	On the corner of Morehead and Kent.	24:39
Felix Armfield	Okay. You pretty much went to church in your neighborhood?	24:41
Peggy Tapp	Everything was right in the neighborhood.	24:44
Felix Armfield	What was the religion there? What was the background?	24:46
Peggy Tapp	Baptist?	24:48
Felix Armfield	It was a Baptist church. Were your parents pretty religious and church-going people?	24:48
Peggy Tapp	Very.	24:53
Felix Armfield	Did either one of them hold positions in the church?	24:53
Peggy Tapp	Well, not as a position, but like they were ushers and they sang the choir and they taught us to do the same thing.	24:53
Felix Armfield	Okay. Do you still attend that church?	25:01
Peggy Tapp	No, I moved my membership to Morehead Baptist after I got married, which is right down the street.	25:02
Felix Armfield	Which is right down the street, so you're not going to get too far from home?	25:17
Peggy Tapp	No.	25:17
Felix Armfield	If we can begin to talk a little bit about The Chicken Hut itself. Okay. Where was The Chicken Hut founded?	25:17
Peggy Tapp	Okay, The Chicken Box. Okay. That was the name originally, and my husband started out on Apex Highway. I was just a young girl then, so we weren't married.	25:31
Felix Armfield	Okay.	25:45
Peggy Tapp	It was just a shape of a box.	25:45
Felix Armfield	Okay.	25:48
Peggy Tapp	That's why he named me The Chicken Box. His sister named it The Chicken Box.	25:48
Felix Armfield	His sister named it?	25:52
Peggy Tapp	Yes. Mm-hmm.	25:53
Felix Armfield	The Chicken Box. Okay.	25:53
Peggy Tapp	He stayed there, I guess, a couple of years, until one night he told me he only made something like 40 cent for an order of french fries.	25:56
Felix Armfield	Really?	26:09
Peggy Tapp	So he closed down at that particular place.	26:09
Felix Armfield	Okay.	26:12
Peggy Tapp	He was totally out of business until maybe a few months later, he just happened to be riding by on Roxboro Street, which was known as Pine Street.	26:14
Felix Armfield	Okay.	26:23
Peggy Tapp	That's where he started the next Chicken Box.	26:25
Felix Armfield	Now, when was this now?	26:28
Peggy Tapp	This was in 1957.	26:32
Felix Armfield	1957.	26:32
Peggy Tapp	Mm-hmm. We were burned out in that location in 1966, but Urban Renewal had already told him he had to move, so he was in the process of building this building.	26:33
Felix Armfield	Urban Renewal had told him he had to move.	26:48
Peggy Tapp	Right.	26:50
Felix Armfield	What was that Urban Renewal?	26:51
Peggy Tapp	Well, right now, Scarborough Funeral Home, Elkins Motor Company, all of these places, see, everything was Black-owned over there. Nothing but Black businesses, and on Pettigrew Street, we had our Black movie. We had everything, but now you have nothing.	26:52
Felix Armfield	That whole area—	27:08
Peggy Tapp	Area.	27:10
Felix Armfield	Over there down where Scarborough—	27:10
Peggy Tapp	Pine Street, where Scarborough Funeral Home is now, Roxboro Street and going on around Pettigrew Street.	27:12
Felix Armfield	Down by the railroad tracks?	27:21
Peggy Tapp	Yes. All of that was owned, nothing but a string of Black businesses, and Urban Renewal came by and wiped everybody out.	27:22
Felix Armfield	That's why that vibrant arts and Black business district is no longer there.	27:32
Peggy Tapp	No. Very few of those people are living.	27:37
Felix Armfield	Really?	27:42
Peggy Tapp	I think that this did something to them.	27:42
Felix Armfield	Yeah. Yeah. Now, was The Chicken Box in that area?	27:46
Peggy Tapp	We were located right where Elkins Motor Company is now,	27:52
Felix Armfield	Which motor company?	27:57
Peggy Tapp	Elkins Motor.	27:58
Felix Armfield	Okay.	28:03
Peggy Tapp	I mean, a car lot.	28:03
Felix Armfield	Okay.	28:03
Peggy Tapp	Car dealership rather.	28:03
Felix Armfield	But you all were burned out from that location?	28:04
Peggy Tapp	Yeah. We were burned out, but we were in the process getting ready to move because they had told us we had to move.	28:04
Felix Armfield	Okay. And then is that when you moved to this present location?	28:12
Peggy Tapp	Yes. Uh-huh. So, well, we were out of business until September 1966 because they hadn't finished this building.	28:15
Felix Armfield	Okay.	28:26
Peggy Tapp	We moved in here on September 10th, 1966.	28:26
Felix Armfield	Moved in 1966.	28:29
Peggy Tapp	Mm-hmm, and we were burned out June 8th of 1966.	28:32
Felix Armfield	You weren't out of business too long.	28:37
Peggy Tapp	No.	28:39
Felix Armfield	Just a couple of months.	28:40
Peggy Tapp	Right. But my husband was trying to hold on to all of his employees, trying to scribble scrabble and pay, because he had good employees.	28:41
Felix Armfield	Yeah. It sounds like you all came into your new building right in the height of the Civil Rights Movement.	28:50
Peggy Tapp	Yeah. Yeah. We had a lot to do with the sit-ins. We fed a lot of the people, the CORE. I don't know whether you've ever heard of that.	28:58
Felix Armfield	Yeah.	29:06
Peggy Tapp	Yeah. We fed that organization with McKissick, Floyd McKissick, and I've forgotten the White man that was working with him. It's been years ago.	29:07
Felix Armfield	Yeah.	29:19
Peggy Tapp	But we had dealings with all of this. We fed all of them.	29:19
Felix Armfield	When you say you fed them, I assume there were certain activities that were going on.	29:22
Peggy Tapp	Yeah. We took food to the jailhouse to feed the people and out at Duke University, the sit-ins that they had, the hunger, we did that.	29:27
Felix Armfield	So you've been an integral part or at least an important part—	29:36
Peggy Tapp	Yeah.	29:36
Felix Armfield	—of this community.	29:36
Peggy Tapp	Mm-hmm.	29:36
Felix Armfield	That's interesting.	29:36
Peggy Tapp	Yeah.	29:36
Felix Armfield	That's quite interesting. I'm trying to think of some other things that we could talk about.	29:37
Peggy Tapp	I just wish my husband could be here because he could really tell you a lot of things, and when you do come back in August, I'm going to have some information. If I can, I will bring some of this information to you tomorrow.	29:57
Felix Armfield	Mm-hmm.	30:08
Peggy Tapp	I may not be here, but I'll leave it and a package for you. I just need you to write your name on something.	30:10
Felix Armfield	Okay.	30:15
Peggy Tapp	So I can put your name.	30:16
Felix Armfield	I will do it. I will do it.	30:18
Peggy Tapp	Okay.	30:18
Felix Armfield	What I'll do is I'm going to make sure I stop by tomorrow.	30:18
Peggy Tapp	Okay.	30:18
Felix Armfield	Tomorrow morning sometime.	30:18
Peggy Tapp	Okay.	30:18
Felix Armfield	Or at least sometime tomorrow.	30:18
Peggy Tapp	All right.	30:18
Felix Armfield	Whether you're here or not.	30:18
Peggy Tapp	Okay.	30:18
Felix Armfield	I'll stop by.	30:18
Peggy Tapp	Okay.	30:18
Felix Armfield	If you get a chance to leave something. I guess I want to know then, perhaps, what is your fondest memories of the '40s and '50s when things were still setting in? Was there anything that you, that sometimes you sit back and you think, and you'd say, "My God, I remember when things weren't like this and I wish we could have those old days back."	30:18
Peggy Tapp	Oh, well, I just the business for one thing, how we were together. That was good. Even though we had no working capital, which we don't now, but the interesting part about it was that we just really worked together patronizing. But like I say, it's not totally our fault, I guess, we were so happy for integration to set in and we would just say, "Okay, ooh, we're free now."	30:56
Felix Armfield	Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. We saw our integration as a sign of freedom.	31:28
Peggy Tapp	Right.	31:30
Felix Armfield	What type of businesses were up and down?	31:30
Peggy Tapp	Oh, you had dry cleaners, you had service stations, you had restaurants, you had pool rooms, you had barber shops, you had the bank, which the bank is still there. You had North Carolina Mutual, which was on this street.	31:41
Felix Armfield	North Carolina Mutual was in that district?	32:04
Peggy Tapp	Yes. There were the churches. We had Black churches, just all up and down.	32:04
Felix Armfield	Really? Were your theaters and movie houses?	32:05
Peggy Tapp	Well, the theater was a Regal Theater and it was located on Pettigrew Street.	32:10
Felix Armfield	Regal?	32:16
Peggy Tapp	And also we had a Black hotel.	32:17
Felix Armfield	Now, what was the name of that Black hotel?	32:19
Peggy Tapp	The Biltmore.	32:22
Felix Armfield	The Biltmore Hotel?	32:22
Peggy Tapp	Yes.	32:22
Felix Armfield	Now, the Regal Theater was strictly a Black theater, right?	32:23
Peggy Tapp	Right.	32:29
Felix Armfield	How long had those two, the Regal Theater and The Biltmore Hotel been around? Were they around-	32:38
Peggy Tapp	For years. I mean, when you ever since I was in the world, I mean, that I could remember going, they were there.	32:40
Felix Armfield	Okay. Okay. There was a thriving Black business community?	32:40
Peggy Tapp	Of course.	32:40
Felix Armfield	At one point in time.	32:40
Peggy Tapp	Yeah.	32:40
Felix Armfield	Yeah. Is there anything else you can think of you'd like to tell me?	32:41
Peggy Tapp	No, I think that's just about it today.	33:03
Felix Armfield	Okay. Okay. But we're going to get back in touch with you.	33:04
Peggy Tapp	Okay.	33:13
Felix Armfield	See if we can't get some of those photos.	33:13
Peggy Tapp	Okay.	33:13
Felix Armfield	And you do have some early photos of—	33:13
Peggy Tapp	Yeah.	33:19
Felix Armfield	From The Chicken Hut starting? From all locations?	33:19
Peggy Tapp	Yes. I think he had something he had published in The Carolina Times.	33:24
Felix Armfield	Okay.	33:28
Peggy Tapp	Yeah.	33:28
Felix Armfield	I'd love to see some of those.	33:28
Peggy Tapp	Okay.	33:28
Felix Armfield	If we could, we'd like to get some pictures of those items.	33:33
Peggy Tapp	Okay. All right.	33:36
Felix Armfield	Such that they can be used and placed into the archives.	33:36
Peggy Tapp	Okay.	33:36
Felix Armfield	As a part of your collection and the interview.	33:36
Peggy Tapp	Okay.	33:36
Felix Armfield	But, I guess, one other quick thing I'd like to just have talk about a little bit for me was as a Black youngster growing up in that time period, what kinds of things were you informed of so far as your education and the outlook? What did education mean?	33:36
Peggy Tapp	Oh, education meant a lot to us. It's just like our parents couldn't really afford to send us and the way my mother educated us and sending us after finishing, I mean, you had that push, you had the push from your family, from the community, from the teachers and everybody. They were really proud of us, and the way my parents sent us to college was from a loan company. I never will forget EZ Loan Company.	34:08
Felix Armfield	EZ?	34:42
Peggy Tapp	Yes. My mother would borrow money from one year to the next, one semester or one quarter to the next.	34:44
Felix Armfield	Now, was that loan company, was it Black-owned?	34:47
Peggy Tapp	No. White. We had no Black-owned.	34:53
Felix Armfield	Okay. That was here in the city of Durham?	34:56
Peggy Tapp	Yes.	34:57
Felix Armfield	She could get the money such that you all could go to college?	34:59
Peggy Tapp	Right.	35:00
Felix Armfield	Did all your brothers and sisters go off to college?	35:01
Peggy Tapp	No, there were one, two, I would say, didn't go.	35:06
Felix Armfield	Okay.	35:09
Peggy Tapp	But not because my mother didn't try, is because it was their choice.	35:12
Felix Armfield	Yeah. Okay. They made some choices to do some other things in life.	35:18
Peggy Tapp	Right.	35:18
Felix Armfield	I think that's the way things should be. They should have that choice. But it sounds like your parents were very concerned—	35:19
Peggy Tapp	Right.	35:31
Felix Armfield	—that you all got as much—	35:31
Peggy Tapp	And the community.	35:31
Felix Armfield	Yeah.	35:31
Peggy Tapp	You know?	35:31
Felix Armfield	Yeah.	35:31
Peggy Tapp	And your teachers.	35:32
Felix Armfield	I bet. I bet. She could get that loan from semester to semester?	35:37
Peggy Tapp	Oh, yeah.	35:45
Felix Armfield	Such that she could get from semester.	35:45
Peggy Tapp	Right.	35:45
Felix Armfield	It gets to school.	35:45
Peggy Tapp	How she paid it back, I don't know. But she did it.	35:45
Felix Armfield	It's amazing.	35:48
Peggy Tapp	I tell you.	35:49
Felix Armfield	It's amazing. Some things we probably don't even want to know.	35:50
Peggy Tapp	Uh-huh.	35:50
Felix Armfield	How she had to pay that back.	35:50
Peggy Tapp	That's right.	35:50
Felix Armfield	But her concern was that you all could get an education.	35:50
Peggy Tapp	Right.	35:50
Felix Armfield	Now, where did you attend school?	35:50
Peggy Tapp	North Carolina Central.	35:50
Felix Armfield	Okay. You are a North Carolina Central University graduate?	35:50
Peggy Tapp	Right.	35:50
Felix Armfield	All right.	35:50
Peggy Tapp	Well, not a graduate.	35:50
Felix Armfield	But you attend?	36:07
Peggy Tapp	I did attend for two years.	36:08
Felix Armfield	Okay. Well, it's happened too. I got some friends who went through that process and never did quite finish that. Life—	36:10
Peggy Tapp	Yeah. I think I just got in with The Chicken Box and it was like I just fell in love with it and just start working, working, working.	36:17
Felix Armfield	Really?	36:25
Peggy Tapp	Yeah.	36:25
Felix Armfield	Okay. And that's pretty much where you consumed most of your time.	36:27
Peggy Tapp	Right, right.	36:28
Felix Armfield	Here in The Chicken Box.	36:28
Peggy Tapp	Right.	36:28
Felix Armfield	I can understand. Well, I guess, if there's nothing else in particular that you'd like to tell me or anything in particular you think I ought to hear about. Oh, I have one other thing. I know you keep thinking, "When is he going to stop thinking of one other thing?"	36:29
Peggy Tapp	No.	36:50
Felix Armfield	Yeah. No, I do have one other thing. There was supposedly in the 1930s or '40s a major racial riot here in Durham.	36:50
Peggy Tapp	Mm-hmm.	36:56
Felix Armfield	Do you recall any of them in particular?	37:03
Peggy Tapp	I can't, not right now. I really didn't pay any attention to the riots, racial riots, until oh, in the early '60s.	37:07
Felix Armfield	Okay. So you wouldn't be—	37:20
Peggy Tapp	I really clamped down.	37:23
Felix Armfield	Okay.	37:26
Peggy Tapp	And just start, again, to realize what it was all about.	37:26
Felix Armfield	Okay, I guess before then, you probably would've been too young.	37:28
Peggy Tapp	Yeah.	37:28
Felix Armfield	To really know what was going on.	37:28
Peggy Tapp	Right.	37:28
Felix Armfield	Okay.	37:28
Peggy Tapp	Okay.	37:28
Felix Armfield	Well, I thank you so much.	37:28
Peggy Tapp	You're quite welcome. You're quite welcome.	37:28
Felix Armfield	I assure you that we'll be in touch with you again.	37:28
Peggy Tapp	Okay.	37:28

Item Info

Title:

Peggy Tapp interview recording, 1994 June 08

Date:

June 8, 1994

Creator:

Tapp, Peggy Delois

Contributor:

Armfield, Felix

Description:

Name: Peggy Delois Tapp; Date of birth: 1940-04-10; Place of birth: Durham, NC; Occupation(s): restaurant owner; Residence: Durham, NC
Informant ID: 366; Interviewed by: Felix Armfield.

Occupation:

Location:

Format:

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Digital Collection:

Behind the Veil

Source Collection:

Behind the Veil: Documenting African American Life in the Jim Crow South interviews, photographs, and project records, circa 1864-2011, bulk 1990-2004

Series:

Related Resources:

See below

Provenance:

The David M. Rubenstein Rare Book and Manuscript Library acquired the Records of the Behind the Veil Oral History Project from the Duke University Center for Documentary Studies in 1997, 1998, 2000, and 2002.

Rights:

Limited Re-Use

Rights Note:

Copyright for content created by the Behind the Veil project is held by Duke University and made available to the public using a Creative Commons Attribution / Non-commercial (CC-BY-NC) license.

Identifier:

Interview number: 343
b74d75a9-60c1-425b-a4bb-71a7ef6ba915
behindtheveil
btvnc03036
ark:/87924/r4zp41f7s
7c174a2d-5671-4273-a7f8-f4b3655a2399

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