Sadie Hughley interview recording, 1994 June 08
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| Sadie Hughley | This is an article— they interviewed me and it came out in the papers after I had attended an international congress, I guess that was after Australia. We meet for international congresses every three years, but nationally we have about 125 branches in America. | 0:04 |
| Paul Ortiz | Before you were telling a little bit about the history of the Women's International League. Just maybe recount that? | 0:42 |
| Sadie Hughley | Yes. Talking isn't as easy for me. I had done this article on the history of the organization for when I president of the local branch. We have a Chapel Hill, Durham branch, but this was founded into it in 1919. I told you that the women's suffragist's congress was meeting in 1915 during World War I, and then at the end of this is when the women decided that they needed to go into something that would involve our men and wars. Actually, we oppose war, anything that had to do with people living together. | 0:49 |
| Paul Ortiz | And this was an interracial organization from the very beginning? | 2:07 |
| Sadie Hughley | Oh yes, from the beginning. We didn't have many, not many women of color were involved in it, but it became interracial very soon. It was founded in 1915. What the women were driven by, a vision of a disarmed world where people could live together and we felt very strongly in our vision that they endured danger, ridicule, hatred, racism. The organization had many aims and goals, abolishing these things, and particularly racism and abolishing wars, because they felt that people should be as one world. | 2:16 |
| Paul Ortiz | You see the connection between war and racism? | 3:34 |
| Sadie Hughley | Oh yes. See, in 1915, the suffragists were women who were fighting for rights of women. That's what that organization was, but the majority of the women felt that we have a war with each other, and this is what we need to work for. We also worked for the abolishment of wars by a certain time, right now we've moved it up to 2002. We want all the world to stop wars, but it's political too, you see, because the only way we can change laws, and change things, is to go through our governments and this is why we have legislative offices and lobbyists. In Washington, we have a legislative office there and we worked through the international offices in other countries. Annually, we have congresses as we are having this weekend, but every three years we have international congresses where we meet with our 30 nations. It is international, it's not just American. | 3:41 |
| Paul Ortiz | Sounds like an exciting organization. | 5:26 |
| Sadie Hughley | Well, I've been in it 40 years. | 5:28 |
| Paul Ortiz | I wonder if we could talk about your beginning involvement in it, if we could move back the clock 40 years. | 5:32 |
| Sadie Hughley | I joined the organization in 1954. This is 40, that's how I came to it, and my involvement came out of my husband and I. My husband was a faculty member here at NCCU and so was I, a librarian. He was Professor of Economics, he had received his Doctorate and Masters from Columbia, but he had received a Masters of the Arts from Union Theological Seminary across the street from Columbia. Since his death, that has been made a Doctor of Theology. | 5:41 |
| Sadie Hughley | He knew that they were going to make that change though, because he put the same amount of time getting that as he did, as he did getting the Doctor of Philosophy. We were, sort of, religiously oriented too, and there was an organization before this called Fellowship of Southern Church. Now, it wasn't just church people, but it was southern people would believe in changing the ways that we were living throughout the lands, but particularly in the south, because then it was slavery. | 6:29 |
| Sadie Hughley | We had this organization and Neil and I were members, and they are the Presidents of the NY faculty people. All institutions of color joined this organization, so we would meet in the summers, and it was very hard for us to find places for us to meet, because we were interracial. Finally, a woman up in Asheville gave us 385 acres of land so that we could have a conference center there. But, in 1960, when the civil rights movement started, when the woman refused to get up from her chair— | 7:17 |
| Paul Ortiz | Rosa Parks. | 8:18 |
| Sadie Hughley | Right, Rosa Parks. And Martin Luther King was not necessarily the beginner of this, but they needed a leader, and she of course didn't want to be leading the group. He was selected to lead the group, so all through from then on, we in WILPF, we still have our land, and we let groups meet up there. | 8:19 |
| Paul Ortiz | In Asheville. | 8:50 |
| Sadie Hughley | It's 10 minutes outside of Asheville. We were not as active as we used to be, because we started working with the new thing, and originally organizing. Neil and I were right with the students and faculty people who chose to go with the ideas of the group. This is a state institution, North Carolina Central is, so the state did not support a religious program, but with my husband's background, Dr. Sheppard, who was founder of the institution, knowing Neil's background, he asked him to have charge of the religious activities there at the university. No classes were taught in religion. | 8:54 |
| Paul Ortiz | And this was in the early 1950s? | 10:14 |
| Sadie Hughley | Yes, the latter part of the '50s, beginning of the '60s, before the sit ins and the places in Greensboro, they always mention that, but they do not tell us about the sit ins in Durham here. We had it going on here, too, but it's all right that they use that Greensboro incident when they want to politicize the things. But from then on, have you heard of Floyd McKissick? | 10:18 |
| Paul Ortiz | Yeah. | 11:01 |
| Sadie Hughley | Floyd McKissick was very involved with the movement here in Durham, and his daughter Jocelyn was one of the young people who first went to jail. When they had demonstrations that they would bring officials from New York City and other places here, this was kind of headquarters here in our place, one year they had a summer program that they called free the highways, because people of color could travel all over the south land, but they could not go in restaurants, they had to find places to live, and they had to stay all night in Black families' homes. We brought in 34 students from all over the country, it was an interracial group, and they stayed around in the homes. Every Sunday, one of the officials from the north would come and we would have demonstrations, and would go to places, restaurants and Howard Johnsons, and demonstrate. | 11:03 |
| Sadie Hughley | 34 of these students were sent into Durham for a weekend to work on this, breaking these barriers, and they stayed three weeks because they were being so effective here. There was one White girl from a college in California and Jocelyn McKissick who decided that— well, Jocelyn was put in jail, and so was Candy. Her name was Candy, and Candy refused to go in the White part of the jail. They didn't want her to go in with Jocelyn, but she told them she was Black, also. She was a White girl. I went through that and many people in the south. | 13:03 |
| Sadie Hughley | My father is as White as any person. His eyes are blue, his hair is like yours, and he always— he worked as head superintendent of the gas and electric company in Texarkana, Arkansas, Texas for 13 years as head foreman, but they didn't ask him, "What is your race?" Because you look at him, you don't ask him what your race is. He worked there for 13 years and— | 13:58 |
| Paul Ortiz | Do you know approximately the years, the decade that he was working there? | 14:38 |
| Sadie Hughley | Yes, that was when I was real young. It would have been around 1910 to 1915. | 14:42 |
| Paul Ortiz | Around World War I or before World War I? | 15:01 |
| Sadie Hughley | Well, yes. And the head foreman from St. Louis came to Texarkana, he would come every month to inspect the regional places, and when he got here, this time my father wasn't in his office. They said, "Oh, Mr. Surrey is gone for the day." But the inspector wanted to see all of the heads of the regional offices, so he got his address and went to our home there in Texarkana. I wasn't born yet, then, so maybe that might have been around 1915, because I don't really remember that incident, I was too young to remember, but he went to my home. My mother is a woman of color who has more color in her, a little more than I, and he could see that this is very strange, I suppose. | 15:04 |
| Sadie Hughley | But he never made anything of it, he never even asked my father. It seems against the law anyway in the south, for Blacks and Whites to marry, but in the south there are as many people of color who are this way, because of slavery. You'll find so many people of color and my father would dare be called a White man. | 16:22 |
| Paul Ortiz | So he would? | 17:05 |
| Sadie Hughley | He would not. | 17:06 |
| Paul Ortiz | He would not. | 17:06 |
| Sadie Hughley | Oh, no. | 17:08 |
| Paul Ortiz | He identified with— | 17:09 |
| Sadie Hughley | He identified with being a Black man. But this superintendent never said one word to him, and the only reason he left the job is because he was hired at Bishop College to come there and work. He had five children and he wanted to educate them, so he took that job there. He figured that something might have come up, but nothing. He was never questioned about that, what your race is. | 17:10 |
| Paul Ortiz | That's very interesting. I wonder, Mrs. [indistinct 00:17:55], if you could tell me a little bit more about your childhood experiences and growing up? | 17:53 |
| Sadie Hughley | Okay. We were at Bishop College from 1922, my father was there 20 odd years. I grew up there, for college I graduated there, and our school was supported by the White baptists, not the southern baptists. I meant to say the northern baptists. The President, the year that I graduated from college, was the first year they had a doctor— what was his name? Joseph Rose was the first person of color. Before then, our faculty was more Whites than Blacks. | 18:01 |
| Paul Ortiz | And, I'm sorry, which town was this? | 18:57 |
| Sadie Hughley | Marshall, Texas then. Now, Bishop bought land in Dallas, and the school was given a whole lot of land by White people who didn't want the Black students to enter those White universities there, so they gave the grant at Bishop, in Dallas, was really remarkable. You know the Japanese have bought that school? | 18:58 |
| Paul Ortiz | Oh, really? Interesting. | 19:30 |
| Sadie Hughley | I've got a friend who was here this past week, who's going to get more information about it, and let me know, because he didn't know that Bishop had closed as Bishop College there in Dallas. But the physical plan is, if you go to Dallas, and see the physical plan, it's really remarkable. But what was happening, those White universities didn't want Black students, so they gave this land to them and built in the site, and they made it the very nice college it was then. | 19:32 |
| Paul Ortiz | What was it like to grow up in Marshall, Texas? | 20:14 |
| Sadie Hughley | I'm sure a very, very outstanding White man— what is his name? I'm not acting, I can't think of it, but how was it to grow up in Marshall? | 20:20 |
| Paul Ortiz | Yeah, for you. | 20:39 |
| Sadie Hughley | Okay, for me. Dr. Madison, who was the President, had three children, two daughters and a son, they had a terrible time in the public school system, because they called them nigger lovers. Margaret, the youngest daughter, and I grew up together, of children. My mother was a musician and she taught in the public school system, but to grow up, the other couple, the other sister and brother, they just couldn't take it. They had to send them to schools out of Marshall, because they had such a hard time in the public school system. They grew there and the children were really nasty to them, but Margaret says, "They're not going to run me away." | 20:42 |
| Sadie Hughley | When her mother would leave to go out of town, Margaret stayed. When my father bought the home right in front of Bishop College there in Marshall, and so Margaret would stay with us. When my mother would go out of town, I'd stay up in with Margaret, and we grew up together as real friends. I went to the private high school which they had, it was part of Bishop College, they have us a private school. The only public high school was so far from the campus, it was over near Wiley College, which was a Methodist college. | 21:43 |
| Sadie Hughley | But I grew up there and my whole high school experience was with nine other class mates. It was a lot of oil in Texas and some of the students that came from outside, were kids that came with families where they had discovered oil. But of course it wasn't expensive for me, because my father worked and we lived. | 22:36 |
| Paul Ortiz | Were you the only Black student? | 23:09 |
| Sadie Hughley | No, there was Dr. Speed, who was a very prominent physician in Marshall, his daughter and Travis Downs. He was the student of color there in the school, and three or four other students who had come from other parts of the south, but there were nine of us, and we went through high school together. My brothers have attended school at the public high school, but Margaret and I had no real problems, because she defied this, and we would go to town together. Nobody ever attacked me nor Margaret, but her sister and her brother, it was just too much for them. Their family just had to send them away to attend school. But my experience in high school, I had one Black teacher, all my other teachers were from the north, and from Canada even. And then, we didn't have ghettos in Marshall. People there lived all over town. | 23:11 |
| Paul Ortiz | That was going to be my next question, is how was Marshall set up? | 24:41 |
| Sadie Hughley | Now, our home was— Bishop Street ran right into the campus, and our home was not on the corner of Bishop, but on the other corner, but there was nothing. The college owned the house and faculty people [indistinct 00:25:10] around so that they could live there, but my father bought this place on the corner of Grand Avenue. Behind me were White families and out of Bishops Street that ran into the campus, there was a big store that was not a department, it was more of a grocery place, and it was owned and operated by Jewish people. We didn't have— now, over by Wiley College, which was a Methodist school, there were more people of color who were living closer together. Behind Bishop was a hospital and there were a lot of Mexicans employed there, and that is how I happened to learn to speak, rather fluently, my Spanish that I was taking in college. But you've got to talk to people of different nationalities, and what are you? | 24:46 |
| Paul Ortiz | I'm actually Hispanic. | 26:41 |
| Sadie Hughley | You're Hispanic? | 26:43 |
| Paul Ortiz | Yeah— | 26:44 |
| Sadie Hughley | That's why I asked it. | 26:46 |
| Paul Ortiz | My father grew up in Houston. | 26:48 |
| Sadie Hughley | In Houston, Texas. But Bishop wasn't— I can't think of this man, and he is a very outspoken and liberal White man from Marshall, I didn't know him then, I was too young, but after we moved away and I became more involved with the international and national activities, I got to know him. He did something on the radio recently, which was remarkable, but he was from Marshall. | 26:51 |
| Paul Ortiz | Interesting. | 27:43 |
| Sadie Hughley | It was interesting. | 27:43 |
| Paul Ortiz | Now, I will be honest, I know nothing about Marshall. | 27:44 |
| Sadie Hughley | It's in east Texas. | 27:50 |
| Paul Ortiz | It's in east Texas, okay. | 27:53 |
| Sadie Hughley | Near Louisiana. | 27:55 |
| Paul Ortiz | Okay. When you were growing up in Marshall, you mentioned that there was a very mixed pattern of neighborhoods, can you describe that a little bit? Then maybe talk about some of your family, institutions. | 28:02 |
| Sadie Hughley | Well, we were Black and White. What I mean is, we didn't have churches together, we didn't have schools together. My mother was taught in the public schools, but all the teachers were people of color in the public school for Black people, and the White schools were all White. My father was an engineer when he and my mother married, and he decided that he didn't want his children to be exposed to so much of this. He would always own a car of some kind, so he traveled that way. He didn't want us to always be subjected to these things, but we worked all our lives. We lived to eliminate conditions. | 28:22 |
| Paul Ortiz | And you got a sense of this from a very early age, that— | 29:39 |
| Sadie Hughley | Yes, because of the Maxons, Dr. Maxon who was President of Bishop, was White and his children were White. We grew up together and it just happened that one of the children of the Maxon family defied this, and she wouldn't let it get her. But the other two, it was just too much for them, and as I said, they were called nigger lovers. But Margaret stood up with it, and she has died in recent years, but we did continue through to her death. The year I finished college there, they had elected Dr. Rhoads as President of that institution then. | 29:43 |
| Paul Ortiz | And that was during the 1940s? | 30:42 |
| Sadie Hughley | Yes. | 30:42 |
| Paul Ortiz | Okay. Can you tell me a little bit about your mother? | 30:44 |
| Sadie Hughley | My mother? | 30:52 |
| Paul Ortiz | Yeah. | 30:53 |
| Sadie Hughley | My mother comes from a very interesting family. There was seven girls, no boys. They were a musical family, everyone in the family was a musician. My mother played and composed music, she taught in the public schools. Her father was a Stores, was his name, but he and my grandmother divorced when my mother was very young, and she married to Mr. Cox. Her mother kept her and she grew up more of his daughter, and the other six girls were all born of that marriage. There were seven and they were all musicians. | 30:56 |
| Paul Ortiz | Did they go to a formal school? | 32:07 |
| Sadie Hughley | Yes, they went to schools where they were trained and educated in their field. My mother was a presbyterian and she grew up in a [indistinct 00:32:23], but when she married my father he was a baptist, and they believed in keeping the family together if possible, which they did. | 32:08 |
| Paul Ortiz | Was there a decision made on which church? | 32:34 |
| Sadie Hughley | We stayed with my father. | 32:37 |
| Paul Ortiz | The baptist, okay. | 32:38 |
| Sadie Hughley | And he was a very active baptist, he was superintendent of the Sunday school, and my mother played for the church. As I said, she composed music, but every girl was— Now, I was not as gifted in the piano as I was with the string instrument, violin. But there was one sister that was just a genius in music, she sat with the piano and started playing, but they were all educated. My mother's father and her second father, they were both— My mother's father was a Stores and he sold Talladega College all of the land down here were Talladega is. | 32:43 |
| Paul Ortiz | That was very interesting. | 33:50 |
| Sadie Hughley | He was a man who liked to buy up land. He went all over the United States and he had one daughter born after his second marriage. He left valuable land to my mother and her half sister. | 33:51 |
| Paul Ortiz | Do you have many memories of him? | 34:14 |
| Sadie Hughley | Not any, hardly. My father took us out to Talladega where his native home was. He took us out there because he didn't like us to ride on the trains, and he would drive us. We have been on the highways going places and my father would stop to get food, and they'd tell him, "Well, you can come in and eat, the two niggers can't." Things like that would happen and he was a really peaceful man, but this, I think, I've never seen my father so angry as he was when he had experiences. This is why he was determined that we wouldn't be subjected to this kind. Now, the children, the six of us, the three of us had a mild complexion. My oldest brother who died in Denver two weeks ago, he was very fair, as my father. My second brother was like a little Mexican boy. Curly top and his skin was beautiful. Then, my third brother was Daniel, he also went to my father's complexion, and my oldest brother, they were two very fair boys. | 34:18 |
| Paul Ortiz | Can you tell me a little bit about the Stores family? I don't know much about them. | 36:17 |
| Sadie Hughley | I don't know anything hardly about the Stores family, because my mother grew up with her mother and her stepfather, and he was so proud of my mother, but he should have been proud of all his daughters. Last night I was going through some material that one of my aunts, she married a young man who was a concert artist, he sang, but he had epilepsy and he died. She founded a hospital in Chicago on epilepsy, and one wing of the hospital there was named. She took her husband's name, she was an elocutionist, she spoke. She took the name Dierdra, who obviously was his last name. Dierdra I don't know why. Her name was really Arly Vera Cox, and she married Walmsley, and she took the name Dierdra Walmsley, and changed her name in the telephone and everything, was Deirdra. But she had a school in Chicago and I was reading a lot of the material about her. I'd like to show you her picture. | 36:20 |
| Paul Ortiz | Yeah, we are also copying pictures, photographs, to make them part of our collection, so that would be— | 37:59 |
| Sadie Hughley | Yeah, because we called and her sister Tina was the musician who— she studied music and became really accomplished. But before, she was just gifted, and she could sit down at the piano and play anything she'd hear. She had the kind of talent and I have pictures of Dierdra and Tina. | 38:09 |
| Paul Ortiz | Did they play primarily in the church? | 38:39 |
| Sadie Hughley | No, in Chicago she started a school of training children, and not necessarily a church school. [indistinct 00:38:55] gift to children, and she has some of the programs I was looking through last night, because I'm going to do something on my family going back to my six aunts. There was no boys in family ever, seven girls. | 38:45 |
| Paul Ortiz | Interesting. In Marshall, was there a— you mentioned going to primarily the baptist church— | 39:18 |
| Sadie Hughley | Yes, because really, the college, they called the baptist church that was one block from the campus, they called that the campus church. It wasn't, but that's the church that the students always attended, and affiliated with. | 39:34 |
| Paul Ortiz | Were there other— | 39:55 |
| Sadie Hughley | Denominations? | 39:57 |
| Paul Ortiz | — denominations, and were there other African Americans in town that went to different churches, and lead different kinds of lifestyles? | 39:59 |
| Sadie Hughley | Yes, but they also went to this baptist church that was considered the school church. There were many African Americans, it really couldn't be a Black and White church, it was considered a Black church. There were a lot of people that were very fair in the church, people from slavery, you know how that happened. My father's mother is both— she's a mixture of both Native America, his father is Irish, he was of owned plantation. | 40:06 |
| Paul Ortiz | His father? | 41:08 |
| Sadie Hughley | His father, and his mother was a mixture of Native America. Now, I'll show you a picture of my grandparents on my mother's— excuse me. | 41:08 |
| Sadie Hughley | — librarian here, the Stanford Warren Library, you've seen it down there on the street, it was once an all Black library— | 41:22 |
| Paul Ortiz | And you were the librarian? | 41:39 |
| Sadie Hughley | Yes. I was the children's librarian here, I had not gone on to get my Masters in library science, but these are the children. This is Mrs. Merrick, who was on the board of the library. The building and land was given to all the Black people by Dr. Warren, who was a Black physician. His daughter married John Wheeler, who was very active in the— well, he was a Morehouse man, which my husband took part in undergraduate school, and John married. Okay, so this was the library— | 41:40 |
| Paul Ortiz | I drove by the library today, I saw that building, and I thought there must be a lot of history in that building. | 42:39 |
| Sadie Hughley | Yes, there really is. I haven't been there— I was at the university library for 21 years, so I've left it. There I was with the children, but these are all children of color. Listen, these two are brothers. That's [indistinct 00:43:07], his professor over here at the college. His brother, he calls me his boy, he left here and went to Africa, he wanted to work with people in Africa. I don't think he comes home to visit, but I don't think he'll ever come. He's gone. Then, all of these children are grown ups now. Mrs. Merrick's husband was one of the founders of the [indistinct 00:43:42]. | 42:44 |
| Paul Ortiz | Do you know about what year this was taken? | 43:46 |
| Sadie Hughley | Yep, it must have been— vacation reading at Stanford. Every summer we had vacation reading props. I came to the library at the college in 1959, so this must have been taken about '55 or '56. | 43:48 |
| Paul Ortiz | That's a very wonderful picture. | 44:15 |
| Sadie Hughley | And see if I have some more— This is a group of Black librarians. This woman here was head of the school library of science at [indistinct 00:44:47] University in Atlanta. We were having a summer meeting, that's me. | 44:29 |
| Paul Ortiz | You mentioned an organization of Black librarians— | 45:03 |
| Sadie Hughley | Oh yes. | 45:06 |
| Paul Ortiz | What kind of an organization was it during that time? | 45:07 |
| Sadie Hughley | We belonged to the national organization, but when we had our local and state meetings, it was mostly— you don't see a White person in there. | 45:11 |
| Paul Ortiz | Right. | 45:24 |
| Sadie Hughley | Nope, not one, but we always— Now, this, I'm on my way to a meeting of WILPF, Women's International League for Peace and Freedom, in Europe. Now, it's a mixture here, you see only one, two, three, four, five— you see only five, but this is from America, because when we got there, they were from all 30 nations. | 45:30 |
| Paul Ortiz | Is this in the '50s here, this picture? | 46:13 |
| Sadie Hughley | This picture was in '68, because this is our first— This was in 1968, when this picture was taken. The international congress, 1968, yeah. | 46:17 |
| Paul Ortiz | Okay. | 46:32 |
| Sadie Hughley | United States delegation, we were going to Denmark for a meeting. This is a— I was— This is adopted from Germany, he's part of the band babies that— We had a couple of— | 46:34 |
| Paul Ortiz | This is him, right? | 47:01 |
| Sadie Hughley | — but they were good friends of ours. And I kept telling her that Neil and I wanted to adopt two children, a sister and brother but two children. And they kept, she put us in such— With this kind [inaudible 00:00:20] children because they had children there whose mothers had the children, but they were— Unless somewhat adopted them, we never knew how they would grow up. But they would grow up all right, I suppose. But we got Mari Hall and we in New York meeting him here. Now, Neil spoke German very well, but they have dialects, you see. And I could communicate with him in the beginning better than he, because he was [inaudible 00:01:07]. He was really— When we got final adoption papers, he was only two, but he was almost three when he got here he had to bring them in back quota. And I think most of these are pictures. | 0:01 |
| Paul Ortiz | This one in the late 1940s. | 1:28 |
| Sadie Hughley | Yeah. He came in '55, '50 something. I pulled these out so I can't remember. We were having an international [inaudible 00:01:56] up in Washington and I was in charge of this and we marched on Mother's Day to Bethelon bus there. And so you can see, it's a pretty integrated group, but many of them are— Well, it's regional. Region three, this is region three. And we are, well, integrated. Which we do with the job of bringing people together and there are wonderful people. I once went to a meeting up and connected, and these were both friends. | 1:32 |
| Sadie Hughley | Elle was the wife of the fellow who was white. We had been together at Columbia Union Theological Center. And Neil was in Dallas speaking and his wife taught for years at the NYU. So she had gone to Europe for something. And then we had this friend couple who had an entertainment up in Connecticut. And they invited me and Elle. And this fellow, his wife with both of our meets were away. So Paul and I went to this, and when we got there, the couple that invited us had visited us here in America for two weeks. Now here in Durham, integration was very slow in Durham. And I have to tell you this because it's the truth. It was very hard to get people of color to invite White people in the homeless guests. But it wasn't hard for me because my mother and father taught us to grow up to love everybody. | 2:53 |
| Sadie Hughley | And we knew that we were subject, we were persecuted, we knew the history, but we knew that it wasn't right. And we found so many White people whose hearts were right. And there was so many more whose hearts were wrong. But we never wanted to teach our son or our children to have hatred for anybody. And I tell you, these women will do anything in the world for me because they know that I'm sincere and I'm that way. And I find them to be that way. Members and many here and Durham have changed, over the last 15 years, 10 years I guess I could say Durham has changed so much. Chapel Hill has changed, but they had a very wonderful man who was president of the university over there and he's largely responsible for changes. | 4:25 |
| Sadie Hughley | [inaudible 00:05:51] used to be a part, see, it's an extension really, of Chapel Hill, but you just didn't look upon it as a liberal community. Not at all. But now things are changing and I give this organization will, a lot of credit for changes that have happened in the United States. | 5:48 |
| Paul Ortiz | Now when you left— At some point you left Marshall, can you tell me about when you left Marshall, Texas and the reason? | 6:18 |
| Sadie Hughley | Yeah. When my father retired, but Neil came there to teach. He had got his education on Moore house. He went to New York because his father wanted him to go to a religious school, theological, that's how he got involved in Union Theological Center there. But he also went to Columbia [inaudible 00:06:59], 'cause that's where he got his training in economics and his philosophy. But we left, he came to Marshall. I graduated from college before I was— Before my 19th birthday. And why that was, there was not at that time a restriction on the ages that you could go to public school. And my mother taught and the lady said, "I guess you are okay." Well she didn't let me do it, but it had happened. And my mother was at school teaching and I was feeding the chickens from a high back porch on our hole there. And I threw myself out and broke my collar bone. | 6:29 |
| Sadie Hughley | And this upset my mother. So she says, "I'm going to take her to public school every day." So I started very early and then she was teaching the children at home. And then when I came, when we moved here, moved to Marshall from Texas. That's where I grew up, it was about five years, four or five. And I went to the private high school. Then when I finished that, I started taking my college work the summer before. We were on a three system of a quarter system. And as I took the first quarter of my college before I finished high school. So it means that I finished college in three years. See I went to high school three summers So Neil came there to teach at the college and he spoke at our church that Sunday. And my mother had gone to Cana to visit that weekend. | 7:59 |
| Sadie Hughley | And after church that Sunday morning, my father had to pass right by our house to go to a campus. And this person who spoke that morning, my father must have said, "Well come on in, and introduce you to my family." And he brought him across the street and introduce him. And my father says, "Would have want you to stay and have lunch with us?" And I was about to burst 'cause I hadn't prepared lunch. And Neil he was wise. He said, "Well no, I think I'll take a—" | 9:28 |
| Paul Ortiz | Rain check. | 10:10 |
| Sadie Hughley | Yeah. Rain check. And so it got out. But he used that often. He would say, "Oh yes, her father was introducing us, he was getting us together." But that was [inaudible 00:10:31]. That was the way he joked with me after we were married. But we married soon. Yeah, out in February, my engagement party was at Christmas, and we met out in February. | 10:10 |
| Paul Ortiz | So there was just something you were immediately attracted to each other? | 10:46 |
| Sadie Hughley | Yes. He was very smart, very brilliant guy. And I liked that. I really did. I really admired men who knew what they were doing. And I don't know what he liked about me, but he must have knee replacement. But we married in February and then the president's wife said, "You came here and took our queen." I was the last college Queen Fitness, Ms. Bishop. | 10:47 |
| Paul Ortiz | Oh, you were the college queen? | 11:40 |
| Sadie Hughley | Yes. | 11:40 |
| Paul Ortiz | Oh, okay. | 11:40 |
| Sadie Hughley | So she would do that just jokingly. | 11:41 |
| Paul Ortiz | What year were you the college queen? Do you remember the year that you were college queen, or Bishop? | 11:47 |
| Sadie Hughley | Must have been in '41. But we've been married. We married and we had a very good life together. He died in '64. He had [inaudible 00:12:26], but he never suffered really. The day he passed, I was in New York attending American Lottery Association. And at the end of the week, I was going to take my niece over to Europe with me to an international Congress of Will. And we talked on Tuesday night. Well, we talked every night, I was downtown in a hotel and we had decided that we would meet in Washington for the weekend on Tuesday night on telephone conversation. | 11:54 |
| Sadie Hughley | And the next day, my sister came into the city. She lives on Long Island and she came upstairs, she and Beth, one of the daughters. And she told me to sit down and she said, "Sister, I got some bad news." And the first thing I thought about was Mario, young kids in the cars. I said, "Is Mario paid?" And she said, "No, Mario is all right." And I said, "Well, is Neil sick?" | 13:21 |
| Sadie Hughley | And she said, "No sister, he's gone." He was walking across the campus and had 11 years out this project he was sending to me to tell me, well a letter. And that's why they called my sister from that letter. And she came in. So he went like that. And it was a good way to go. I see so many people who live and suffer. But he did a very full wonderful life. And he's written several books and he had two books at the publishers then and having them review them and make recommendations. | 14:06 |
| Speaker 3 | So from Bishop College— | 15:07 |
| Sadie Hughley | We came— | 15:12 |
| Paul Ortiz | — you came to Durham? | 15:12 |
| Sadie Hughley | No, not exactly. We came indirectly. We came up to Coville. My grandfather had left my mother property in— Not Coville, Kansas. Muskogee. Have you ever heard of Muskogee, Oklahoma? | 15:14 |
| Paul Ortiz | So you went to Oklahoma? | 15:41 |
| Sadie Hughley | Yes. And Elle and I traveled home with the family and then he had done some work with Langston University and I don't know, he got this sanitation to come here, Dr. Shepherd and we this decided to come out of here. But my mother, after we moved to Oklahoma, she didn't live for a year and a half. She died early at 52. And so Neil and I and my sister Marge, who lives in New York, my sister has two sons. She had two sons and two daughters. Jeanie, the older of the two girls wanted to come south and go to school. And she came to Spelman one year and the next year she was getting ready to go back for her sophomore year. She was a dancer. She started with Catherine Don in New York in dancing. But Neil and I had been up to Canada for our vacation and we came back to stay with them until my sister got back from Germany. | 15:43 |
| Sadie Hughley | Her son was in the army. So when she got passing Marge, you should take Jeanie to see your doctor, family doctor, because she comes home in the afternoons from— She was carrying on her mother's work and she goes, she doesn't do her routine. She goes to bed. And she took her up to— He got a very special person and blood to see her. This doctor had a friend that had heart to live and he put her in the hospital that day. That was September. And she lived until March and she died. She went in at 18 and she was 19 when she died. But she has two sons. James, the father of this child is a physicist and a very accomplished physicist. | 17:16 |
| Sadie Hughley | And Joe is a photographer, that's the younger one of two. But they are all like my children, grown up with me. But Joe has a daughter who graduated from high school and she went to Harvard and graduated and made all A's and one B in honor to graduate. So when she came out, she decided she wanted to go somewhere else in law. So Duke gave her a very good grant, but she stayed with Harvard. So she's graduating from Harvard in law tomorrow. | 18:32 |
| Paul Ortiz | Oh, I see. That's great. | 19:25 |
| Sadie Hughley | Yeah, I'm not going because physically I can't go in there. I've got to go to this meeting and it's just going to be a big crowd of people. | 19:25 |
| Paul Ortiz | Yeah. So when you and your husband came to Durham, you were working— Initially you worked at the Stanford Warren Library. | 19:25 |
| Sadie Hughley | Yes. | 19:52 |
| Paul Ortiz | And then you went to work at the library at Central. What was that like? | 19:52 |
| Sadie Hughley | Oh, well it was different because here I was in all together, different type. I was in administration at the college, but at the public library, I enjoyed working with children very much. I really did. But I liked books and it meant that getting into more academic part of it was good for me. And I was there 21 years. In the meanwhile, everything was integrated here and in the city. So when I retired, I went over to Raleigh to check out everything. I really worked for the state and city and the library, that Stanford Warren Library was integrated. What I mean is that everything had to change. And when I got to go there, they looked at my records and the lady came out and said, "Well, you have given the city 21 years." I said, "I've given the city more than that." I was at Stanford library for 11 years as Children's Librarian. | 19:57 |
| Sadie Hughley | So John Wheeler, who was president of the bank, was also president of the board of that library, public library. And I don't know what he did that night. I came back and I called him, I said, I can't understand why I'm not given those 11 years. The next day I got a statement from the State Department that I had 32 years with us, which meant that I could graduate with full retirement. | 21:39 |
| Paul Ortiz | So you were working as a librarian at the Stanford Warren Library? | 22:20 |
| Sadie Hughley | 11 years. | 22:26 |
| Paul Ortiz | 11 years. And that was beginning in say the mid 50s or I'm sorry, the mid 40s. | 22:27 |
| Sadie Hughley | Yes. | 22:34 |
| Paul Ortiz | Around World War 2. | 22:34 |
| Sadie Hughley | Right. That's right. | 22:38 |
| Paul Ortiz | What was that library like? | 22:38 |
| Sadie Hughley | Wonderful library. The parents first, you've got to reach parents to get the children. And there were parents— There was a public school that owned down a block from the library. Mary, what's the name? That public school. But the children would come from school and the parents who were interested in helping their children, they knew that the library was the first stopping place. And we did a library, very, very wonderful things with the children because many children's parents were workers who did not go home or were not at home when the children [inaudible 00:23:38]. | 22:40 |
| Sadie Hughley | I would take them in and develop programs for the children there— Then we decided that we should give the Children's Library a name. And I put on a contest of the children to come up with things that they would like for their library to be. And one little girl came up with Key Corner, which was perfect. And she won first prize. So it's still the children's library there for the children's room. It's called Key Corner. | 23:38 |
| Paul Ortiz | Key Corner. | 24:24 |
| Sadie Hughley | Key corner. It was in a corner part of the building. And you come up and you go in there and it opens the doors to knowledge to these children. | 24:25 |
| Paul Ortiz | We don't really know much about libraries during the age of segregation. Segregated libraries. The only stories that I have heard have been about libraries that seemingly didn't have much resources. | 24:41 |
| Sadie Hughley | Yeah, that's right. Stanford one, one thing they had was a very wonderful board of directors and John Wheeler, who was also at the time president of the Bank, mechanics and Farmers Bank. Mrs. Mary whose husband and father, her father was a Moore. And she married and married. But these were all a part of the founding of North Carolina Mutual Insurance Company. And they were people who wanted to build a community for the children. I was interested in children because I knew that so many children that have no love and this is how often they get off on the wrong street. | 24:58 |
| Paul Ortiz | So you saw the library as being an important— | 26:12 |
| Sadie Hughley | Yes. And right now, when my brother passed three weeks ago, Lafayette Lipscomb, she is an administrator at the college. Her mother died years ago and there were five siblings left. Lafayette took three of them. She and her husband, the other sister took two. And they had put them all the way through. And Elle and I were with these children so much so that she adopted me as her mother. And her son is my godson, and he was here when I got the telephone call that my brother had passed. | 26:14 |
| Sadie Hughley | And I said, tell your mother when you go home that I've talked to her. Well, when he got home, I got a telephone call and Lafayette said, "I'm going to take you to Denver. I'm not asking you if you want me to go with him." I said, "Lafayette, no, you are having commencement Saturday." And she's administrator. She says, "Well, I'm going take the, to Denver." And she did. She missed the commencement and she took me to Denver and stayed with me for the weekend." | 27:18 |
| Paul Ortiz | There's a question I wanted to ask you about. Now, you joined the Women's International League for Peace and Freedom in 1954. | 28:07 |
| Sadie Hughley | Yes. | 28:15 |
| Paul Ortiz | So it seems to me that you were thinking along political lines, you were getting involved in politics. | 28:16 |
| Sadie Hughley | Not really. No not really. I was really involved in people. | 28:22 |
| Paul Ortiz | And that's how you viewed your involvement. | 28:35 |
| Sadie Hughley | But in order for this organization to function, we know that you've got to have— I'm on Clintons committee. You've got to have the law on your side. You've got to have Congress interested. So you got to be interested in politics to a degree. Otherwise, you won't get laws passed that will help people to achieve certain goals just as we do most of our work through Congress. Our representatives that are in Congress, we love them, we have a legislative office in Washington. | 28:38 |
| Paul Ortiz | Right. I talked to somebody, I just recently discovered that there was a situation in North Carolina Central, sometime in the late 50s where a doctoral program was set up in health education. Could you talk about that? | 29:38 |
| Sadie Hughley | Yes and no. Because I know that it was— I really don't think, though— Obviously it wasn't the time, the timing was wrong. I don't think that they should have, I don't see why they started the program and stopped it. So there must have been some reason. Neil and I talked about it a lot. He didn't feel that it was exactly— We were waiting for a doctoral program. See. | 30:00 |
| Paul Ortiz | I see. | 30:47 |
| Sadie Hughley | I think more than anything else, we had quality people here. We had faculty, people who had their degrees from the same schools that the teachers at Duke and UNC, see. But Dr. Shepherd started out as a street talker, kind of a Bible school. And oh, they called him and Uncle Tom and everything. But he was working to get the state. We needed support from the state. We needed funds. Everybody's paying taxes. We needed funds to help the school. So you would never vote against it, you see, if you were a faculty person as Neil, I guess was one of the first Doctorals faculty people, not a doctoral education. He was the doctor of philosophy and there is a difference. He had to write a book, publish a book, not write a dissertation, but publish a book. They've cut that out in Columbia and I think it's good. | 30:52 |
| Paul Ortiz | But the establishment of the doctoral program caused a controversy that in a way, perhaps presage the certain part of the civil rights struggle? | 32:25 |
| Sadie Hughley | Well, we were working to, say, get schools integrated. We were working for that because we knew that we had an education that— I mean schools that were not equal. The students were not getting the same thing, saying the public school system said they were separate. They tell you separate but equal. But it was finally agreed that the schools were separate and not equal. Students who now are getting courses that all other students are getting and everybody gets. And this is why we've had for many years, so many faculty, so many students who graduated from the public schools who were not getting those basic courses in certain fields that the others were getting in the other schools. Now you can see the difference. Look, have you ever read Black Enterprise? | 32:41 |
| Sadie Hughley | Much of that has been since they've integrated schools. Now I've had friends say to me, "Sadie, I think that we did much better before we integrated." I said, "How can you say that?" Because the Hillside was not offering some of the courses that would prepare a student to be certain achievement they can get. But whenever you make progress, somebody's going to suffer. And it's more than that. That's going to be the Black person who suffers. But we must know that we've suffered a long time and I think it's much better. And then we can work to help you. My organization, I hold women's internationally for peace and freedom responsible for so many wonderful things that have happened. | 34:14 |
| Paul Ortiz | What was the league for peace and freedom doing in 1954? | 35:29 |
| Sadie Hughley | Same thing they doing now, but just more of us doing it. | 35:33 |
| Paul Ortiz | I'm curious though, because 1954 in that period of time it was such a critical era. And I don't know much about what the league was doing. | 35:40 |
| Sadie Hughley | We were taking part in the demonstrations. I mean, willed women, they were doing things. During the Vietnam War, my chapter, which is the Chapel Hill Durham branch of Will, we vigiled in front of the post office seven years, every Wednesday at the post office. They on Main Street in Chapel Hill. For seven years, we hand out literature, we talked to people, we would provide postcards and things and ask people to write to our congressmen and ask them. And we provided the stamps and post cards, and it's surprising how many young people, students, because at lunchtime, coming across the street there, that post office on East Franklin, it's just like a circus. | 35:52 |
| Sadie Hughley | People going across the street. And then many of these young people, well, I'm trying to tell you what happened. Have you heard about the Community Church of Chapel Hill? All right. The Community Church of Chapel Hill was founded What year? Because Neil and I, my husband and I are child members. Now Charlie Jones, who was pastor of the Presbyterian Church was their only strength. And the student, he was such a wonderful, honest, sensitive and student. There was a room that had a huge fireplace and almost every night of the week he'd have groups and undergraduate groups, young married groups. | 37:08 |
| Sadie Hughley | And some important issue was, well, he always asked Neil to come over and join him and assist him with this. Okay. The members [inaudible 00:38:25] families, they got really upset because their children were coming home talking about this child Jones, the minister, the Presbyterian church. And learning all these things, he's talking about people living together, people getting together and building a one world. See. | 38:10 |
| Sadie Hughley | And they said to the center of the Presbyterian church, they said, "Get this man out of Chapel Hill. Get him out." Well, the church, there may have been members in the church that agreed with some of this, but they knew he was a good man. He was sincere and he was never lying to them. | 38:55 |
| Paul Ortiz | Around what time was this? | 39:24 |
| Sadie Hughley | This would've been in the 60s because Charlie was here when the bus came through. Charlie kept a bus over of them. They learned that bus. And he brought his family over here, his wife and children to us that night. And in this group was a man and his wife. And they were interracial. And he knew, they think Michael burned him down, but he brought them over here. Well, there was a young man going to the university who was Jewish, John Harris from New York. He was a student there. And John just really fell in love with Helen Jones. And he'd go over to the church, not as a member, he was Jewish, but as a friend. And they sent an investigating committee into the city to investigate to see if he is preaching Presbyterian doctrine. | 39:28 |
| Sadie Hughley | So John went to them and said, "I think you all are wrong to investigate this man. He's one of the finest people in Chapel Hill. And I just think it's terrible." Well, I don't know if they asked him if he was a Jew or what, but when they report, I have it too. I have the book of the report that Senate came out with. And they say in that, if he is preaching Presbyterian doctrine, how can a Jew condone him? | 40:47 |
| Sadie Hughley | So John became one of the finest families. He was rather fluent. The person in New York, he had money and he, after Charles Hill fell and after he passed, well Charlie said to the church, "Listen, I'm one man and I'm not going to be a part of splitting up a church. So I want to get a leader of absence to go up in the Appalachian country and work with a Save the Children's Foundation." They granted him that. While he was away, the Dean of the School of Law and about 20 members in the church called meeting. And a committee came over here and invited me and Neil to come to this meeting. We organized a community church. | 41:32 |
| Paul Ortiz | And what year is this? | 42:41 |
| Sadie Hughley | In Chapel Hill. | 42:41 |
| Paul Ortiz | In Chapel Hill. | 42:41 |
| Sadie Hughley | And it's over behind the hospital there. | 42:42 |
| Paul Ortiz | And this was in 19? | 42:48 |
| Sadie Hughley | 60. Wait a minute. Yeah, it was in the 1960s, somewhere there. | 42:51 |
| Paul Ortiz | And that's called the Community? | 42:57 |
| Sadie Hughley | Church. But now in recent months, we have affiliated— Well, first, let me tell you, Ted Danzika, a fellow from Germany who came to Chapel Hill with his family, and they set up a chain of restaurants in Chapel Hill, the Steakhouse, . And he gave us— Well, for the first three years we operated and the president of the university and the university permitted us to have our church services on the campus in classroom buildings. I taught Sunday school class. And in the summertime, there's an open air place, theater, they call it, but it's outside. We would have services, morning services outside 'cause it was nice. Well, my two nephews, James and Joe, who were little boys and spent every summer here with us. And we were sitting in church one day out in the open. And they called me sister, see? | 43:00 |
| Sadie Hughley | He said, "Sister, we are not in church." I said, "Why did you say that?" He said, "Well, a church has windows and walls, and we out here in the open." I said, "A church is not a building, James. A church is people." And so when we got home, I talked to them. He was young, about three and a half and four. But it was so funny. And we invited a man over from India once who was in our church and helped us sing. And we invited him over for dinner. And when he got here, they liked to help prepare food. And I was going to have rolls. And Dr. Singh told James he could come back and help him. | 44:29 |
| Sadie Hughley | I let him do this. He decided that he wanted to make it into a certain way. Well, when we sat down at the table to eat, he started eating with his fingers. Dr. Singh, I kicked him under the table. He said, "No, Dr. Singh." He says, "Watch your table manners." And I kicked James. And Dr Singh told me, he said afterwards, he didn't seat at the table. He says, "Everywhere we go in Chapel Hill, we get that. So don't worry at all. The children wonder when they see us eating without—" So when I got home, I explained to James that this is another country. It's thousands of miles away. They have their custom. | 45:38 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | I understand, but things like that. Children need to know that these are customs in different places. | 0:01 |
| Paul Ortiz | If we could go back to when you were working as a librarian at Stanford Warren, and then your experience at North Carolina Central, what was community life like here in Durham? | 0:15 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | In Durham? | 0:28 |
| Paul Ortiz | Yeah. | 0:29 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | Durham was very, I could say, racist. It really was. Durham has—Since more young people are coming in, more young people who experienced it and became a part of the civil rights movement—When did you come to America? | 0:29 |
| Paul Ortiz | Oh, actually, I was born in Virginia, so I— | 1:03 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | In Virginia? | 1:07 |
| Paul Ortiz | Yeah. I grew up in Washington State, so— | 1:08 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | Oh, well, you know something about this area then, don't you? | 1:10 |
| Paul Ortiz | A little bit, yeah. | 1:16 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | Virginia? Virginia used to be a pretty rough place. | 1:20 |
| Paul Ortiz | Yeah. | 1:20 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | But I have wonderful, wonderful friends. | 1:26 |
| Paul Ortiz | I'm curious though, because Durham has always been—I've always read that Durham—If you read the publications, like today I was reading a book that was written by, I think, maybe the Durham Chamber of Commerce in 1950, and it said that Durham was a very progressive city that Whites and Blacks got along. | 1:32 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | In 19-what? | 1:56 |
| Paul Ortiz | 1950. | 1:56 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | Uh-uh (negative). | 1:56 |
| Paul Ortiz | And that it wasn't like those other cities in the South. | 1:56 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | Uh-uh (negative). No, I can tell you there were very progressive Whites and very progressive Blacks, but to say that the city is this way in the '50s, that's not true. Durham has grown in the past 10 years. | 1:58 |
| Paul Ortiz | If we could move maybe into the internal life of the African American community, where did you live? And what was that like? | 2:26 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | Where did I live? | 2:35 |
| Paul Ortiz | Yeah, here. | 2:35 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | Well, they built a house on the campus for us. It was one of the four faculty houses, the last one that they built when we came. So we were on one end, Doctor and Mrs. Alphonse Heninburg. And then Dr. and Mrs. Lee, she was a public librarian in the librarian role. And Dr. and Mrs. Farrison. Farrison was head of the English department. These are very, very well educated people. And his wife also taught in the English department. Then Mrs. Lee, Dr. Lee was in chemistry, I believe, but in one of the sciences. And his wife was a librarian. Dr. Heninburg, he came up here from Tuskegee, he and his wife and son. And then they had another son, after they had many years of struggle, because they had lost a very, very tragic situation down in Alabama. He was a very suave, handsome, very, very wonderful speaker. | 2:36 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | And he and his wife went away from Tuskegee to one of the schools in Mississippi. He was speaking. And as they were going up on the platform, he got a call to come home immediately. And they chartered a plane back to Tuskegee. And their daughter, who was only three years old, had been struck by a truck and killed. And they left her with a music teacher, and she was taking her children over to another place. So when they got off the plane, Billie, his wife, ran to say, "What hospital is the Heninburg baby in?" And they told her the baby was such and such. "Oh." So Alphonse was our nextdoor neighbor. He never wanted to live in Tuskegee anymore after that. It's a real tragedy thing. | 4:14 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | Then us, the Hughleys. So those were the four faculty houses. Now the three of them have been torn down, and they are girls dormitories. Well, one of them is so large, it took in the other three houses. Then our house, well, when they voted to put in—What is the program that the government has for soldiers? Neal and I voted against it. (laughs) But that's the only house. That is now the ROTC center. (laughs) | 5:28 |
| Paul Ortiz | Oh. | 6:12 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | I haven't been back to my little house since either. I have to go over to it one day, because some of the students who get there, they just say, "This was the Hughley's house." But I haven't been back in there since we left. And we bought this land here and decided to move off the campus. | 6:12 |
| Paul Ortiz | Right. There must have been a special kind of life. I mean there were only four faculty houses. | 6:33 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | That's right. | 6:44 |
| Paul Ortiz | Can you tell me a little bit about that? | 6:46 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | On the other side of our house, there was a large dormitory fashioned place, which was for married teachers and couples. So there were apartments that've held, I guess, oh, Dr. Walker, who is head of the Olympics. Levi Walker? | 6:48 |
| Paul Ortiz | Levi Walker. | 7:12 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | He and his wife and two children lived in that big apartment place next to our house. And several faculty couples lived there. And others just lived in the city, had found housing in the city, because there were no other houses provided for faculty. | 7:14 |
| Paul Ortiz | During that time, did you have much contact with longer term Black residents in Durham? | 7:42 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | Oh, sure. Well, we couldn't have been in Durham. Well, Neal and our relationship with the city was just marvelous, because Neal—Oh, you not a [indistinct 00:08:05] yet. There was a pastor here, Reverend Graham, who pastored two churches, one out in the community, Bahama, and then a church here in town. Well, his health was failing, and he told Reverend Graham that he'd have to give up one of these churches. Well, the one out in the country was only one Sunday, but they had Sunday school every Sunday. So Reverend Graham had invited Neal out there to speak for him a few times. So a committee came to Neal and asked him if he would preach for them on that Sunday, until they found a minister. | 7:50 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | And Neal said, "Well, I really have a full schedule, but it's just one Sunday." And they agreed until they found somebody. When he died 11 years later, they hadn't found anyone else. But you know the kind of man he was? He loved those people, and they loved him. It meant that every day of the week he was going to a hospital, because it was an aging church. And he would go to see the sick people, and they just wouldn't let him go. They did a history of the church two months ago, and now they are enlarging it. And the lady came back to show me what they're doing. I wish that he could just walk back and see those people. See most of the churches won—The people in the church owned their land out there. | 9:01 |
| Paul Ortiz | And then this was in— | 10:25 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | Bahama, it's 17 miles from here, and right going up 15-501. And he loved those people. So he never told—Those people, never knew he had a doctorate degree, because he wasn't interested in telling them what his training was. And he would go. Anybody that got sick, and many of them was getting sick, as I said—The children would get their education and go away and get jobs. But they loved that church. | 10:27 |
| Paul Ortiz | This a Presbyterian church? | 11:08 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | Mm-mm. It's a Baptist church. | 11:10 |
| Paul Ortiz | Baptist church. | 11:12 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | Mount Calvary Baptist Church is what the name was. And I was at a friend's house here one week. And a lady, who was a nurse, came in the room several times, and she'd look at me. And I'd look at her, because I had seen that face, but the name—I couldn't remember all those names. So she came up to me one day, and she said, "Mrs. Hughley, you don't remember me, but I know you too well. You're Dr. Hughley's wife." I said, "Yes." She said, "Well, let me tell you about your husband. | 11:14 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | I was in a car wreck, and every bone in my body was broken. And do you know that he came to hospital every day?" And I think that's why—" Oh, she started crying, and I did too. She said, "I think that's why I'm living today, because he would come to the hospital every day. And when they finally let me go home, he would come there. And I don't care where my mother was in the house. If she was back in the kitchen, he'd go back and sit down. He loved them. And they loved him." | 12:00 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | And I'm telling you that church now—Oh, when he retired the year before he passed—She said, "Uh-huh." But the church said—I went to that meeting that night, because he was going to stop that evening, because—One of the ladies got up. She said, "Oh, Dr. Hughley, now we can have church for Sundays." I had got up. I said, "Did you understand what he was saying to you?" And everything got still, because I don't think they liked my voice. I said, "He is retiring. And he loves this church. He loves the people." | 12:47 |
| Paul Ortiz | So he retired in about 1963? | 13:43 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | No, he retired in '65. | 13:46 |
| Paul Ortiz | '65? | 13:51 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | Mm-hmm. And I told them that he's going to do some of the things now that he loves doing. He likes writing. | 13:52 |
| Paul Ortiz | So the people in this church were from perhaps a less privileged background, would you say? | 14:05 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | Yeah, because most of those people in that church own that land. And Neal used to tell them, because when this guy put up that new community out there—It's a very, very elaborate community. The houses are so expensive. And they were trying to get the members of that church to sell their land. And Neal would tell them, "Listen, be careful before you make decisions about getting rid of your land. This is yours. This is your land." Because when they bought the land and paid them for it, the money would be gone in a surefire back then. This guy started buying back up, who became president of Duke, Sanford. | 14:16 |
| Paul Ortiz | Oh. | 15:25 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | Uh-huh. And so— | 15:25 |
| Paul Ortiz | He's considered to be very progressive person, but— | 15:27 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | He is. He's all right. I don't have anything against him, but he's a businessman too, you see. Sanford is a very fine man. And Neal and I have been invited too, when he was president, to their home. We were invited to everything out at Duke. | 15:31 |
| Paul Ortiz | Oh, really? | 15:55 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | Yes, because Neal, with his training, his background, he was a [indistinct 00:16:05]. We were included on social functions and things, the faculty, the administration. So it wasn't a matter of, well, just inviting somebody from over at NCCU. We had friends out there. And then many of the members of their divinity school were also members of this organization I told you about, the Fellowship of Southern Churchmen. | 15:56 |
| Paul Ortiz | Right. | 16:41 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | Many of them were. And so we were close friends. But now your question was though? What was your question? | 16:42 |
| Paul Ortiz | Oh, I guess it was going back to you and your husband's relationship with- | 17:00 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | The community. | 17:07 |
| Paul Ortiz | With the community. You're coming, and he begins teaching. I mean you both have professional careers. And I was just wondering what kind of relationship that you had with the community. I think you told me your husband's very unique experience in leading the church. What about in Durham? Did you sense that there was a—I guess a question I want to get at is perhaps, what was the relationship between North Carolina Central and the surrounding Black community? | 17:08 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | Dr. Shepard, the Shepard family, they're natives of Durham. He had a brother who was a dentist, Dr. Shepard. He was in education, and this man was in medicine. And they all grew up here. And so they were a part of town. And then these fine families that I mentioned, Mrs. Merrick, her children, their offsprings and all those, they were all very, very dear friends of ours, because Neal and I just got to know everybody. And people knew that we liked them. It wasn't one sided at all. And so that relationship was very good. | 17:49 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | Oh, I used to have friends would say to me, because Neal and I were on picket lines. They would say, "Sadie, listen, I know you believe in what you're doing, but I just can't do it," meaning I can't get out there and march on the lines. You know? | 19:00 |
| Paul Ortiz | Uh-huh. | 19:19 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | But when Marion Davis, this is a girl from Germany, came to Durham, her husband was in the war. And he was writing his dissertation for a degree. And he cracked up. So in Germany, when that happens, they don't expect a couple to try to mend lives, because they don't expect the person to, I guess, survive this. He was related to the Ganzigers, who left Germany and came to America and put up all these restaurants and things. And they invited Marion over. So she came over, and she brought her son, Manuel. And he was in my Sunday school class. He didn't speak German. I mean I didn't speak German. And he said, "Look at me." And I didn't know what to say to him. But I happened to speak a little German. But anyway, Marion married finally an American fellow from Virginia. But he was so nice, so nice. | 19:20 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | But Marion could not compromise. She could not. And her mother came over to visit her. And she said to her, "Marion must always be fighting and struggling?" Because what had happened to her father in Germany. He was a banker, but Jewish. Her mother was not Jewish, but her father was. And they knew that they were coming to get him in a few days or something. And Marion worked in the underground. So the family agreed that the father would take one of the pills, end his life. And they came the next morning, and they gave him the corpse, because he knew from his friends what they were going to do with him. And she came to America. And she worked hard. She did. She worked so hard. And her mother said, "Marion, must you always fight so hard?" | 20:48 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | But Marion, as I said, she would not compromise. She had principles that she stood with. I'm that way, and I don't consider myself a stubborn person, but if I believe in something that's right, I'm not going to change. I try to, but I can't. And so this fellow worked for the Heart Association, national, and he was a good young man. He helped us take students and friends to the picket line and to the [indistinct 00:23:08] lines. After they finished out building our house, when we moved in, Bob and Marion came over. He didn't want Neal to lift those heavy books. I gave our books to the libraries, and he and Marion came, and we ate our first meal together here. | 22:16 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | But he went down. They sent him down to South Carolina. And he was almost nextdoor neighbor to this Strom Thurmond. You know him, don't you? And one day Neal and I went somewhere further south to, oh, Danforth Foundation. We were Danforth Foundation associates, Neal and I were. So we went to a meeting, and we left Mario with them. And when Neal and I got there, Marion said, "Sadie, do you know who my neighbors are?" And when she told me, I said, "I'm going to take Mario on with me then." And she said, "Oh no, don't do that. I'm going to leave before he does maybe." But she really could not have people come in. And Bob had to invite people that were a part of the association and for meetings and things, but she could not stand to hear them speak of Black people as niggers. | 23:32 |
| Paul Ortiz | What were the symbols of Jim Crow in Durham during those years? | 24:46 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | Well, they did have these—Well, really and truly, I can't say that there were any more here than any other place, but they had—That's why the people of color don't care for the flag. Oh, they hate that flag. | 24:52 |
| Paul Ortiz | Which flag? | 25:13 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | It's the— | 25:15 |
| Paul Ortiz | Oh, the Confederate? | 25:16 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | Right, mm-hmm. They hate it. But I'm learning a little bit more about it, and I'm trying to not be (laughs) as—Well, I don't know. I've got to get some more. | 25:17 |
| Paul Ortiz | What about Marshall? I think that's a question that I didn't ask. Do you remember any of those kinds of symbols in Marshall, Texas when you were growing up? | 25:37 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | I really don't. I really don't remember any. And I was really young, but I don't remember ever any of those symbols in Marshall. Marshall was—And why can't I think of that guy saying—You would know him. You would know him, but I can't think of his name. But he was from Marshall. And I really wanted to meet him. But he's never come to Durham, where I've had an opportunity to call to make an appointment to meet him. Oh, I can see it. And I can't call his name. But Marshall, did you ever go to—You said you never went to Marshall? | 25:46 |
| Paul Ortiz | No, I haven't been. | 26:44 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | You read something apparently about it, because you come back to Marshall often in your questions. | 26:45 |
| Paul Ortiz | Yeah. I'm curious about it, because we just don't—In our project, we're trying to pick future sites to go to, research sites. | 26:54 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | Oh, yes, yes, yes. | 27:04 |
| Paul Ortiz | And we've talked about East Texas. | 27:08 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | Marshall would be a good place, I believe. | 27:10 |
| Paul Ortiz | Do you think that there's still a lot of people that have memories of growing up, a lot of Black people that would— | 27:14 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | I haven't been back there. I have not been back to Marshall, I think, since we left. I've been through there, but not to stop. So I don't know. And Marshall was no big place, but it's historic. It has a lot of history that it may be one of the places that—If you go there, if you didn't feel that you could get anything, you could keep moving on. But Dallas used to be a very rebbish city. | 27:22 |
| Paul Ortiz | Wonder we have some paperwork, and this is on your biographical information about your family history. And this is an important part of our project. On this first page, this is more autobiographical information with your sisters and brothers. If you could pull that out, that would be wonderful. That would really help us, because one of the main themes of the project is to talk about family life, family history. And hopefully that pen works still. | 28:02 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | I think it's not. | 28:51 |
| Paul Ortiz | Is it not working? | 28:52 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | But wait, I've got one back here that I think may work a little bit better. | 28:52 |
| Paul Ortiz | Okay. | 28:57 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | Is that the point is— | 28:58 |
| Paul Ortiz | Did this one work? | 28:59 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | Doesn't matter whether it's red or what? I'm having a problem. I'm not able to write. I used to have a pretty nice hand. And my middle would be the maiden name, Sawyer. Now my name though, I was Sadie Modessa Sawyer. But I never used now I haven't so long. I never use anything but Sadie Sawyer Hughley. Now which would you prefer? | 29:03 |
| Paul Ortiz | Which actually, which one? | 29:53 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | Well, it says maiden name here, so I'm going to put my middle name Sadie M. | 29:55 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | Well, Sadie Sawyer was my maiden name. Current address— | 30:33 |
| Paul Ortiz | Now if that pen is giving you trouble, you could dictate to me, and I could write. Wouldn't that be—If the pen is— | 30:37 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | Well, it isn't the pen. I'm not steady in my handwriting now. And I once wrote pretty nice. But I've kind of lost some of it, so. | 31:29 |
| Paul Ortiz | Okay. Now your home telephone number is? | 31:43 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | Well, area, 919. | 31:47 |
| Paul Ortiz | Okay. | 31:47 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | 682. | 31:47 |
| Paul Ortiz | 682. | 31:47 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | 8890. | 31:51 |
| Paul Ortiz | 8890. | 31:54 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | Mm-hmm. | 31:58 |
| Paul Ortiz | And this is how you would like your name to appear in the written materials. | 31:59 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | Uh-huh. | 32:03 |
| Paul Ortiz | We'll make copies of these, and then they'll be in the archive. | 32:04 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | Oh, yeah. | 32:10 |
| Paul Ortiz | How would you like your first name? | 32:10 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | Sadie. | 32:14 |
| Paul Ortiz | And your middle? | 32:19 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | Well— | 32:21 |
| Paul Ortiz | Do you like to be Sawyer— | 32:22 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | Sawyer. I use it all the way, so Sadie Sawyer Hughley. | 32:24 |
| Paul Ortiz | Okay. And then this page is about your siblings, sisters, and brothers. And if I could just get their names? | 32:36 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | Okay. The oldest of the children would be Hallison, H-A-L-L-I-S-O-N. He's the one that just passed, Hallison E. Sawyer. | 32:48 |
| Paul Ortiz | And do you know about the time and place of his birth and just the town? | 33:08 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | Well, it has on his death program, 1905. | 33:14 |
| Paul Ortiz | And he was born in? | 33:22 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | He was in Texarkana. | 33:31 |
| Paul Ortiz | Texarkana. | 33:32 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | Mm-hmm. T-E-X-A-R-K-A-N-A, Arkansas, Texas. It's a twin city. | 33:40 |
| Paul Ortiz | And he passed away on? | 33:49 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | The 11th of June, 1994. | 33:51 |
| Paul Ortiz | This last year or? | 34:00 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | Just this month. | 34:01 |
| Paul Ortiz | Okay, all right. And I'll just put 1905 to 1994. | 34:09 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | Uh-huh. | 34:17 |
| Paul Ortiz | Okay. And? | 34:17 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | Now the next one would be Robert A. Sawyer. | 34:19 |
| Paul Ortiz | Okay. And he was born? | 34:38 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | Well, he was the second, so I think he might have been born—Bob was first of the brothers to die. So it's been a long time. I think he might have been born about 1912. | 34:39 |
| Paul Ortiz | In Marshall? | 35:08 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | Marshall, Texas. No, no, no, I'm so sorry. He was born in Texarkana. And I would be the next, and I was born in 1914. Sadie. | 35:09 |
| Paul Ortiz | Oh, we don't have to put you on here. I just your sisters and brothers. | 35:34 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | Okay. When I might— wait a minute, let's get them both, the remainder of those. | 35:39 |
| Paul Ortiz | Okay. | 35:41 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | The next one would be— | 35:42 |
| Paul Ortiz | Robert is still living? | 35:48 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | No, he's deceased also. | 35:49 |
| Paul Ortiz | And he passed away in 1990 or? | 35:53 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | Oh. He died when we were living in Marshall, so he died quite a while back. | 35:56 |
| Paul Ortiz | Oh. | 36:10 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | Uh-huh. | 36:10 |
| Paul Ortiz | 1950s? We can just put an approximate. | 36:14 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | Yeah, put about 1950. | 36:18 |
| Paul Ortiz | Okay. | 36:18 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | And then the next would be Dan, Daniel Vaughn Sawyer, V-A-U-G-H-N. | 36:18 |
| Paul Ortiz | Okay. | 36:34 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | Oh my gosh, Dan must have been born in 1916 maybe. | 36:47 |
| Paul Ortiz | Okay. In Texarkana? | 36:50 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | Yeah. Wait a minute. No, Dan was born in Los Angeles. | 37:00 |
| Paul Ortiz | Oh. | 37:06 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | I mean, he's not born in it, but died in it. Wait, he was born in Texarkana. | 37:07 |
| Paul Ortiz | Okay. | 37:16 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | Yeah. | 37:17 |
| Paul Ortiz | And he's— | 37:31 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | Now he just passed about four years, five years ago. | 37:31 |
| Paul Ortiz | Okay, so then 1989? | 37:37 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | Yep. | 37:37 |
| Paul Ortiz | Okay. | 37:37 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | Mm-hmm. And then the next would be Leon. That's four boys, is it? | 37:44 |
| Paul Ortiz | Yeah. | 37:52 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | That's it. Leon C. Sawyer. I guess Leon was born about 1918 or 1919. And he was born in Texarkana. | 37:52 |
| Paul Ortiz | And is he still living or? | 38:47 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | Yes, he's the only one that's living. And then my sister Marjorie Jean Sawyer. | 38:49 |
| Paul Ortiz | Okay. And how do you spell Marjorie? | 38:58 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | M-A-R-J-O-R-I-E, Marjorie Jean, J-E-A-N, Sawyer. But she's now Maynard, so you don't want the married name? She's got four children. | 39:02 |
| Paul Ortiz | Oh, that's fine. Oh, actually, yeah, probably maiden would be—And she was born about? | 39:10 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | She's about nine years younger than me, so I would say—Isn't that funny? But I don't know. (laughs) I should have checked more carefully. I didn't know that you were going to ask about this. | 39:32 |
| Paul Ortiz | (laughs) I'm sorry. I should have mentioned. | 39:53 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | Well, put 1923. | 39:56 |
| Paul Ortiz | 1923. | 39:57 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | Oh yeah, that's right! She was. Uh-huh. And she was born in Marshall, Texas. | 40:02 |
| Paul Ortiz | Okay. | 40:09 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | Texas. And that's it. | 40:12 |
| Paul Ortiz | Okay. | 40:16 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | Mm-hmm. | 40:18 |
| Paul Ortiz | And then, so you were the fifth child? | 40:18 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | Third. | 40:22 |
| Paul Ortiz | Or no, I'm sorry, you were the third child? | 40:22 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | Third child, uh-huh. | 40:25 |
| Paul Ortiz | So [indistinct 00:40:28] here. And then this is information about your children. | 40:26 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | Mario. | 40:35 |
| Paul Ortiz | Okay. And could you spell that? | 40:35 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | Mario Neal Hughley, M-A-R-I-O. | 40:35 |
| Paul Ortiz | Neal? | 40:45 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | Uh-huh. N-E-A-L Hughley. | 40:48 |
| Paul Ortiz | Now he was— | 40:49 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | He was born—Well, now let me tell you about that. Over in Raleigh, we have a date for his birth, but we also have him born in Durham, so that when he goes to apply for jobs and things, he doesn't have to—But he was born in 1953. | 40:54 |
| Paul Ortiz | Okay. | 41:18 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | July, well, 1953. | 41:21 |
| Paul Ortiz | Okay. And what should I put down his place of birth? Germany or— | 41:27 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | Or, well, maybe you better put Germany right now. Mm-hmm. | 41:29 |
| Paul Ortiz | Okay. | 41:36 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | And that's it for offsprings. | 41:36 |
| Paul Ortiz | Okay. Any grandchildren or? | 41:49 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | No. Yes. Oh, yes! And the little boy is Ricardo. | 41:51 |
| Paul Ortiz | Okay. | 41:58 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | Wait, a minute now. We call him Rico. His name is Ricardo Hughley. And he was seven years old February the 8th. | 42:01 |
| Paul Ortiz | So he was born in 19— | 42:17 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | '53, didn't I say? | 42:19 |
| Paul Ortiz | Well, he would've been born in 1987, Ricardo, your grandchild? | 42:20 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | Uh-huh. | 42:41 |
| Paul Ortiz | He would've been born in '87? | 42:41 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | He was born? This is Mario. | 42:41 |
| Paul Ortiz | Right. | 42:41 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | '53. | 42:41 |
| Paul Ortiz | '53. And then you're telling me about Ricardo. And he would've been born in? | 42:42 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | Well, oh, that's his son. That's right. | 42:43 |
| Paul Ortiz | So he would've been born in 1987. | 42:50 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | That's right, yeah. I tell you kids want. Okay. | 42:52 |
| Paul Ortiz | Okay. | 43:03 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | And Rhea Simone, I think is R-H-E-A S-I-M-O-N-E. Simone Hughley. And she was four years old, December 31st. | 43:04 |
| Paul Ortiz | Okay, so 1990. | 43:26 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | Mm-hmm. That's right. | 43:27 |
| Paul Ortiz | Okay. | 43:36 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | That's it. | 43:36 |
| Paul Ortiz | So— | 43:37 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | Two. | 43:39 |
| Paul Ortiz | And now this is: "Please list below the places where you have lived," and just the approximate dates. So your birthplace, we put down, obviously, Texarkana. | 43:49 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | Yes. I don't think I was born—I think I was born in Arkadelphia. My grandmother lived there, but I think my mother went up there. But put Texarkana as where we lived. | 44:00 |
| Paul Ortiz | Okay. And just approximate dates, you were born— | 44:17 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | About 1914, I think mine is. | 44:23 |
| Paul Ortiz | You were born in 1914? | 44:23 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | Uh-huh. | 44:23 |
| Paul Ortiz | And you lived there. You moved to Marshall what year? | 44:25 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | '22. | 44:30 |
| Paul Ortiz | Okay. 1914 to 1922. And then you were in Marshall in 1922. | 44:30 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | To '27, I think, something like that, | 44:43 |
| Paul Ortiz | To 1927. | 44:43 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | Uh-huh. | 44:43 |
| Paul Ortiz | And then you moved to? | 44:45 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | Well, we were in Muskogee for a while. | 44:57 |
| Paul Ortiz | Okay. | 44:59 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | Uh-huh. | 44:59 |
| Paul Ortiz | I have no idea how to spell. | 45:06 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | M-U-S-K-O-G-E-E. | 45:08 |
| Paul Ortiz | Oh, okay. | 45:11 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | Muskogee. | 45:11 |
| Paul Ortiz | Muskogee, Oklahoma. | 45:13 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | Oklahoma. Wait, I'll be right back. | 45:17 |
| Paul Ortiz | Okay. I'll just take the mic. [INTERRUPTION 00:45:20] | 45:20 |
| Paul Ortiz | Now you have Muskogee, Oklahoma. And you lived there from 1927 to about? | 45:26 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | Oh, about three years is all I was saying. And Neal went up to Coffeyville, Kansas and pastored a church for a year. But it was then that got Shepard started communicating with them about coming out here, so we came out here. Oh no, we went to Chicago and stayed a couple of years too. I don't know those dates too much. | 45:34 |
| Paul Ortiz | So Chicago, we'll just say Chicago 1931 to, just a few years, 1934, '35? | 46:23 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | That's two years in Chicago. Uh-huh. | 46:40 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | And I was wondering what Neal was doing in Chicago, though, that kept us that long. Because he wasn't teaching that. What was it? It was some special program that he was—And then I had a lot of relatives there in Chicago. And then from Chicago, we came out here. We came out here in '41. Did I say? | 0:01 |
| Paul Ortiz | 1941? Okay. | 0:42 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | Wait a minute. Yes, '41. That's correct. | 0:45 |
| Paul Ortiz | Okay. And this is your education history starting with grade school? | 0:55 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | Yeah. I went to—Started off in Texarkana, but I finished elementary school in Marshall. | 1:04 |
| Paul Ortiz | Okay. Do you remember the name of that school? | 1:14 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | Uh-huh. That's a shame. Oh, no. I really don't. And that is a shame. Mother taught there. She taught in Texarkana also, but— | 1:18 |
| Paul Ortiz | What year— | 1:33 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | You know, that's been a long time. | 1:33 |
| Paul Ortiz | It has been. Yeah. I just— | 1:35 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | I started thinking about how long it is. | 1:38 |
| Paul Ortiz | And then you were there, you went up to, did that school go up to sixth grade or eighth grade? | 1:44 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | No, I wasn't in school in Texarkana that long. | 1:54 |
| Paul Ortiz | Okay. | 1:57 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | Oh, you're talking about— | 2:00 |
| Paul Ortiz | Marshall. | 2:01 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | Marshall? Oh, up to, I guess it would be the ninth grade because then you go into high school. Ninth, tenth, eleventh, twelfth. Through the eighth, but up to the ninth grade. | 2:01 |
| Paul Ortiz | Okay. | 2:16 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | See, because four years in high school, which would be ninth—Eleventh, twelfth. Is that right? | 2:17 |
| Paul Ortiz | Yeah. And then that's when you went to Bishop? Or, I mean— | 2:25 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | High school. | 2:36 |
| Paul Ortiz | Bishop High School. Is that within the Marshall City limits? | 2:37 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | Yes. | 2:44 |
| Paul Ortiz | Okay. | 2:44 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | Yes. Going right straight down Bishop Street to the heart of town. | 2:46 |
| Paul Ortiz | One of these days, I'm going to have to make it out there. And that was from ninth grade till twelfth? | 2:52 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | That's right. | 3:01 |
| Paul Ortiz | And then from there you were at Bishop College. | 3:05 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | Well, really, my college years were only three because I went to summer school. They had a quarter system at college. And I began it before I finished high school, the summer before. | 3:07 |
| Paul Ortiz | And you graduated in 1920—Now, you were at Marshall till 1927, and— | 3:25 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | Now, 1927 to 1930. I was in Marshall longer than that. We were in Marshall—Wait a minute. | 3:44 |
| Paul Ortiz | Oh, okay. Now, earlier you said you left— | 4:07 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | It's something. | 4:11 |
| Paul Ortiz | Oh, okay. I see. It could be that. Now, you said that you left Marshall in '41? Could that be the—What year were you, because you mentioned a year earlier that you were graduating the Queen of Bishop. | 4:13 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | Queen of Bishop. | 4:27 |
| Paul Ortiz | So what were you— | 4:28 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | But I was in college then. Let me see now. Marshall, Texas. This is not me, is it? '22 to '27. | 4:34 |
| Paul Ortiz | Yeah. Now that was the date that you told me. I should have actually caught that because earlier you said that you were in Marshall— | 4:43 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | Five years. That's after I married. | 4:52 |
| Paul Ortiz | After you married. | 4:54 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | Yes. | 4:55 |
| Paul Ortiz | So I should adjust this up five years. | 4:58 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | That's right. | 5:01 |
| Paul Ortiz | Okay. | 5:01 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | Five years. But so I must have been—We went there in '22. | 5:05 |
| Paul Ortiz | Okay. | 5:08 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | See? | 5:08 |
| Paul Ortiz | So you're in Marshall 1922, you're going to the grade school, then you go to the high school, then you go to the college. So it must be 1922, let's—Eight years for grade school? | 5:10 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | Well, it could have been that I wasn't—In Texarkana, I must not have been in school. I was younger than that when we left. We went to Marshall in 1922. | 5:33 |
| Paul Ortiz | Okay. We got 1922. So— | 5:50 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | Well, that 1927— | 5:57 |
| Paul Ortiz | It must have been later. It must have been about—If you had about eight years in grade school and you had three years high school, three years college, you must have been there for about at least 14 more years. 14 years From 1922 would've made it 1936. | 5:59 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | Okay. | 6:15 |
| Paul Ortiz | Would that be more— | 6:16 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | '36, you say? | 6:16 |
| Paul Ortiz | 1936. Does that sound more— | 6:18 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | But now, what is this '27, then? | 6:28 |
| Paul Ortiz | So this would just mean I would change 1927 to 1936. | 6:31 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | Okay. 1936. | 6:36 |
| Paul Ortiz | One way we could find out is to maybe look at your birth, or not your birth certificate, but your marriage certificate. But otherwise, I'll just put a note here that we need to adjust. I can adjust these dates up. I can fill out another sheet and just adjust these dates up. | 6:40 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | Okay. Because I'll tell you, I don't go through this often. | 7:04 |
| Paul Ortiz | Right. Yeah. It's not every day somebody wants to know your whole story. Okay. So Bishop College, and you said you graduated from Bishop College in 1941? About '41, right before the war started? | 7:10 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | No, I said we came out here in '41. | 7:32 |
| Paul Ortiz | Right. | 7:33 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | So you have missed, it's something back here, it's not right. Durham, North Carolina, you have 1941? | 7:37 |
| Paul Ortiz | Yeah. | 7:42 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | Mm-hmm. | 7:42 |
| Paul Ortiz | It should be later. | 7:49 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | It's later than that. | 7:50 |
| Paul Ortiz | Okay, what we did here is we added nine years. So it could have been 1950? | 7:53 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | It was nearer 1950. | 8:00 |
| Paul Ortiz | Okay. I'll put that. You came to Durham in 1950, then. | 8:06 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | Okay. | 8:10 |
| Paul Ortiz | And say that you graduated from Bishop College about— | 8:11 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | Bishop. Five years be— | 8:18 |
| Paul Ortiz | Okay. So 1945. | 8:25 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | That's right. | 8:25 |
| Paul Ortiz | Okay. Okay. That's your education history. And then, this next one is the interviewee's work history. List your— | 8:25 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | Job. | 8:47 |
| Paul Ortiz | Yeah, your main jobs. You were a— | 8:48 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | Well, I first—Well, when we first got here, I did some—You know, at Bishop, I was assistant librarian there. But that's all right. You don't have to put that down, I was just saying. | 8:51 |
| Paul Ortiz | I'll go ahead and put that down. | 9:02 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | And I taught for a semester in the education department. But don't put that down because it didn't last a whole year. | 9:07 |
| Paul Ortiz | Okay. So the next one I should put down should be when you worked at the library, at this library here? | 9:22 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | Well, when I first came here, I did some substitute teaching in the public schools for about a year. And then I went to this job at the public library. It shows I haven't have recorded my record very much. (laughs) | 9:32 |
| Paul Ortiz | I— | 10:02 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | I'm so interested in other people that I forgot me. | 10:02 |
| Paul Ortiz | Now. I've forgotten the name of the library. It was— | 10:15 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | Stanford Warren Public Library. Stanford Warren Public Library. | 10:17 |
| Paul Ortiz | Okay. | 10:34 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | And I was Children's Librarian there for 11 years. | 10:34 |
| Paul Ortiz | And then you worked at the North Carolina Central Library. | 10:49 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | For 21 years. But when I left there, the public library, I went right to—I had got my master's in library science, and doctorate. Who was the president then? | 10:51 |
| Paul Ortiz | You got it at North Carolina Central? | 11:10 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | Mm-hmm. I went a little bit, several places. The last two years that Neal and I went back up to New York. He took a year's leave of absence to finish his book. His first, his book for his doctorate. And when he got back, he asked for extended year. So we were up in New York two years. And when I came back, I started counting the years that I had been at the public library. But it was 11. | 11:15 |
| Paul Ortiz | It was 11. | 11:59 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | The state gave me credit for | 11:59 |
| Paul Ortiz | That's great. Okay— | 12:03 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | But I took a course up there, too. But I got my degree at the library school here. | 12:04 |
| Paul Ortiz | At Central? | 12:05 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | Mm-hmm. | 12:05 |
| Paul Ortiz | Okay. How about current—Okay, this is religious history. Your current religious denomination is? Would you say— | 12:06 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | Well, I'm a community church person. Community Church of Chapel Hill. | 12:28 |
| Paul Ortiz | Okay. And this just has past church memberships. Are you, would you say Baptist? | 12:47 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | I would say Baptist because all of my heritage, childhood was in a Baptist church. | 13:00 |
| Paul Ortiz | Okay. Now this question up here has, have you ever received any awards or honors or held any offices? | 13:09 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | Yeah. Oh, yeah. | 13:17 |
| Paul Ortiz | Most significant ones, maybe, are— | 13:19 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | I have been President of the Durham Library Association. | 13:23 |
| Paul Ortiz | Durham Library Association. | 13:36 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | I've served on the National Board of Women's International for six, nine years. | 13:40 |
| Paul Ortiz | Okay. | 13:45 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | I was one of the 25 women of Durham who, we received special awards for holding first offices. And I was the first Office of International Board of—Well, on the International Board. So they honored us, we got a book in there, 25. I got a lot of plaques. And I know when you leave I'll think of some other things, too. | 13:50 |
| Paul Ortiz | How about the committee you mentioned? Are you on a committee right now for, you mentioned Bill Clinton? | 15:09 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | Oh, yes. I'll show you mine. | 15:21 |
| Paul Ortiz | We should put that down. | 15:21 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | Really? | 15:25 |
| Paul Ortiz | Yeah. | 15:25 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | Well, let me get the cards. | 15:26 |
| Paul Ortiz | Okay. | 15:26 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | So you can name it right. | 15:26 |
| Paul Ortiz | As far as race or— | 15:31 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | Mm-hmm. Yeah. | 15:33 |
| Paul Ortiz | It's hard to tell from the picture. I would say that she was White just looking at | 15:35 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | Yeah, she is. But Darcy was—There, she does look more White. They had this chandelier, something that were made for her. Darcy Fields Memorial Chandelier. She has now—She's passed, of course. Now let me find my thing. And I hear from Clinton. | 15:41 |
| Paul Ortiz | Oh, you do? | 16:29 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | Yes, yes, yes. Not always asking for money. That's not exactly all of it, but let me see if I can find the one. It says—I get important mail from the President's office. | 16:31 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | Well. I don't know where it is. Because it's a special committee. This one is also a—No, this isn't it. This is about contributing. But I don't know. So you'd better not— | 16:33 |
| Paul Ortiz | Okay, I'll put that down for organizations that you're a part of. You've been a contributing member to the Democratic National Committee. | 18:08 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | Okay. But it's a lot of people, that. United Nations Association. Oh, and also on the board of this region's United Nations Association. I'm a board member, honorary board member, of the United Nations Board of Directors for the Orange Counties. | 18:19 |
| Paul Ortiz | Board member, United Nations? | 19:07 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | It's the Board. See, they have for different regions or counties. | 19:14 |
| Paul Ortiz | Okay. How about during the—Were you ever in any clubs, women's clubs? | 19:23 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | I belong to a lot of them, but I can't attend. I just pay them. | 19:32 |
| Paul Ortiz | Okay. | 19:37 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | I belong to the, what is that? Oh, NAACP. And— | 19:37 |
| Paul Ortiz | Since? NAACP since? | 19:37 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | Ooh— | 19:37 |
| Paul Ortiz | '40s? | 19:37 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | So long ago. | 19:37 |
| Paul Ortiz | Probably '40s, '50s. | 20:04 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | Yes. Since, I would say, the '50s. I don't think I went that far back to the '40s, maybe. I may have. And this, we restored this, the Carolina. And now it's just wonderful. | 20:08 |
| Paul Ortiz | It is, it really is. I've been to— | 20:33 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | Oh, have you been to something there? | 20:35 |
| Paul Ortiz | Yeah. And actually, at the Center for Documentary Studies, we had our grand opening film there. It was the documentary on Reynolds Price. | 20:37 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | Oh, yes. Yes, yes. Well, they had—Mark and I went night before last. Yeah, that woman died. But she was very active when I was working. We actually rented the building from—The city owns it. And we rented it and it was in a terrible shape. | 20:51 |
| Paul Ortiz | That's what I've heard. I haven't seen it. | 21:13 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | Honestly, it was something. Well, we were—Of course, I'd never been in there because I refused to go to the theater where I had to go outside the door and then go up three or four flights. So when I became on the board, see, and I told them, I said, "Well, I haven't been up there." The founding Board of Directors. But Dr. Moses and his wife, well, she was quite an artist herself, and she died. But I liked this card. It says, "We hold you dear wherever we go, whatever we do." And I liked it. | 21:13 |
| Paul Ortiz | That's a nice card. Did we ever get your date of birth? | 22:33 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | I did. Yeah, you got it back, back. It's the 19th. Should be 14th. | 22:42 |
| Paul Ortiz | Okay. | 22:46 |
| Paul Ortiz | Do you happen to remember the month? | 22:48 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | October, '27. I remember that. | 22:50 |
| Paul Ortiz | And we have you down as being in Texarkana. | 23:03 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | Yes. | 23:12 |
| Paul Ortiz | Okay. We're getting down to the home stretch on these forms. There's another form. There's one more. One more form, and it's missing from this part. | 23:14 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | I had another honor that I had down at the art building. And three women were honored there. Get that because that's nice. | 23:33 |
| Paul Ortiz | Okay. Oh, okay. This is the name of your husband. And so— | 23:52 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | J. Neal. And I won't tell you what the J is. | 23:59 |
| Paul Ortiz | Okay. | 24:04 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | He never signed anything but J. Neal Hughley. But Mr. Wheeler, who was his classmate in Morehouse, always called him by that J. But it's a kind of judge. | 24:05 |
| Paul Ortiz | Oh. | 24:20 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | I don't know how they'd go and give him that name. | 24:25 |
| Paul Ortiz | Interesting. | 24:26 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | Mm-hmm. | 24:26 |
| Paul Ortiz | That is very interesting. | 24:26 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | So he never used that, the J. | 24:28 |
| Paul Ortiz | And he was born, do you know his birthday? | 24:33 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | I think 10, 1907. Wait, just minute. Seven, eight, nine, ten. Seven. I guess 1907. | 24:47 |
| Paul Ortiz | Okay. And he passed away in 1964? And he was born in, | 24:48 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | I guess in Chattanooga, Tennessee. That was his home, family home. Well, who'd have thought it? That we'd go through this much. Because I was ready to give up. | 24:58 |
| Paul Ortiz | Yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, you just started talking and this has been a really good session. | 25:21 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | Well, the point is, too, you told me that you are moving on. | 25:27 |
| Paul Ortiz | Yeah. | 25:33 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | And I said, "Well, you wouldn't be coming back very kindly." | 25:33 |
| Paul Ortiz | And for his profession, I'll put he was a college professor, a— | 25:42 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | A minister. | 25:48 |
| Paul Ortiz | I put minister. College professor. | 25:49 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | And he's an author. He's got four published books, but he's got manuscripts in there for about four more. And all this he was going to do when he retired. | 25:51 |
| Paul Ortiz | Okay. And your mother's name was? | 26:12 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | Maddie. | 26:15 |
| Paul Ortiz | Maggie? | 26:16 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | Maddie. | 26:16 |
| Paul Ortiz | Maddie. | 26:17 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | L, I think was the middle name. Maddie L. | 26:18 |
| Paul Ortiz | Okay. | 26:23 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | Sawyer. | 26:23 |
| Paul Ortiz | What was her maiden name, do you know? | 26:33 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | Stores. | 26:34 |
| Paul Ortiz | Stores. That's right. And do you know about her approximate date of birth? | 26:36 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | My mother died at 52, but now when was that? In 19—That's been a long time ago, too. She must have been—Maybe she was—I don't know. | 26:44 |
| Paul Ortiz | She passed away after you moved to Durham? | 27:17 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | No. | 27:18 |
| Paul Ortiz | Before. | 27:18 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | She passed before. Just a little before we came here, which was about, when did I say we came to Durham? Did I say '41? | 27:19 |
| Paul Ortiz | Yeah. | 27:37 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | That seems early to me. Then she must have died '39. | 27:37 |
| Paul Ortiz | Okay. | 27:38 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | So from 39, take 52. | 27:40 |
| Paul Ortiz | So it would've been about 1887. | 27:44 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | Mm-hmm. | 27:45 |
| Paul Ortiz | And she was born in— | 27:45 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | I guess in Arkadelphia. No, she wasn't born there, that's where all the other girls were born. I don't know. | 27:45 |
| Paul Ortiz | But it was in Arkansas? | 28:05 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | It was in Arkansas. | 28:06 |
| Paul Ortiz | And her occupation? She was a teacher? | 28:14 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | Mm-hmm. And a musician. | 28:18 |
| Paul Ortiz | And your father's full name was? | 28:25 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | R.A. Did I say R.A.? What did I put on for his son? He's a junior. | 28:27 |
| Paul Ortiz | Okay. | 28:34 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | It's R.A.? | 28:34 |
| Paul Ortiz | R.A. Sawyer? | 28:34 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | Yes. | 28:42 |
| Paul Ortiz | Okay. | 28:42 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | Senior. Now, he died, he was 80 years old when he died. | 28:48 |
| Paul Ortiz | And he died before your mother? | 28:59 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | No, after. After. And he died, say, in the '60s, '65. | 29:09 |
| Paul Ortiz | Okay. So he was born in about 1890? 1890? | 29:15 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | I think that's more like it. | 29:22 |
| Paul Ortiz | I'll put 1890. And he was born in— | 29:25 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | Birmingham, Alabama. | 29:37 |
| Paul Ortiz | Oh. | 29:39 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | Do you know anything about Birmingham? | 29:43 |
| Paul Ortiz | That's one of our research sites. That's— | 29:46 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | Really? | 29:46 |
| Paul Ortiz | That's the first place— | 29:48 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | Do you know anything about the Bradford Funeral Home there? It's the largest Black funeral home in Birmingham. | 29:59 |
| Paul Ortiz | Do you know people down there? | 30:00 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | Those are my relatives. | 30:01 |
| Paul Ortiz | Okay. So we can use— | 30:01 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | On my mother's side. | 30:01 |
| Paul Ortiz | Okay. At the Bradford Funeral Home. | 30:01 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | The Bradford family. Sure. I got, let me show you pictures of them on a t-shirt we had at the family reunion. It has his picture and hers. Now she is a full Cherokee Indian. On my mother's side, that is, grands are Native Americans. And on my father's side, both sides, we have Native Americans. | 30:10 |
| Paul Ortiz | So for your father's occupation, I should put— | 30:38 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | Engineer. | 30:39 |
| Paul Ortiz | Engineer. Okay. | 30:39 |
| Sadie Sawyer Hughley | Was he? He had his license for plumbing and electric. Electrician. And what did I want, if you—Something I wanted to get to show you. | 30:39 |
Item Info
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