Nell Oxner interview recording, 1993 June 09
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Transcript
Transcripts may contain inaccuracies.
Sonya Ramsey | Now, could you describe the neighborhood where you grew up? | 0:01 |
Nell Simmons Oxner | Well, it was a segregated neighborhood, naturally. All Blacks lived in that neighborhood. There were a few White stores, merchants there who sold things. I guess, they were there for that purpose to sell to the Blacks. And we had Black schools. The elementary schools were in the neighborhood, you could easily get to it. But when it was time for the junior high and the senior high, I guess, it was about two miles. I think we walked from 7th grade through 12th to get over to that high school, you see. No bus, you just walked over there. And finished 12th grade. It was all Black, no Whites, junior high and senior high. | 0:06 |
Sonya Ramsey | What was the name of your neighborhood? | 0:56 |
Nell Simmons Oxner | It's called The Fort. It was called The Fort. And that was because it was in Savannah, and they had that fort there. You've heard about it down by the river to keep the enemies, when they get in the river and would like to come to that wall. They couldn't get over because it would be protected. The city would be protected. And they called it The Fort, that particular section. And we weren't too far from that river, that water. So it was called The Fort. | 0:59 |
Sonya Ramsey | Was your neighborhood the only Black neighborhood in Savannah? Could you talk about some of the other neighborhoods that you came across growing up? | 1:29 |
Nell Simmons Oxner | Oh, yes. Well, there were some, I think where you had, I guess, the Blacks were there originally for some reason. And then after they did some repairs and fixed the thing up, some Whites move in, then it became mixed. Of course, they did their thing. They were together all the time by themselves, and the Blacks stayed to themselves, like that. I think that's the way it was. There were some mixed. | 1:35 |
Sonya Ramsey | Growing up, what kind of things did you do for fun in your neighborhood? | 2:04 |
Nell Simmons Oxner | Well, Church was the main thing and school. We had all our activities at the church. We stayed in church from sun up to sun down as they said. And they had programs at the church that you could go back, musical programs and whatnot, speeches and so forth. And then they had PTAs at the school. You had to go back over there. At nights, they had programs over there and plays and things like that. So it was entertaining. Then they had theaters, they had Black theaters there. One street was called West Broad Street where they had about three or four movie theaters, but they were all Black. And so, we did have places to go. | 2:09 |
Nell Simmons Oxner | And they had, I don't know, it's just like a Negro business section because that street, West Broad, they had just about everything. Even little cafes, seafood cafes. They had barbershops and hairdressers and all things like that. So it was just a booming thing at that particular time. But it was all Black, as I said. And of course, the buses at that time or the streetcars, you rode on the back and everybody knew that. So in my area, see, way back then at that time, nobody protested or didn't be just roll in the back in the streetcar. | 2:55 |
Sonya Ramsey | Going back to the movie, what type of movies do they show? | 3:38 |
Nell Simmons Oxner | All kinds of movies. Love movies, love pictures, Western and then a few comedies. Yeah, very good. | 3:41 |
Sonya Ramsey | Were they Black movies or what? | 3:51 |
Nell Simmons Oxner | No, but they weren't Black movies. No, no. They were White movies. Yeah. | 3:52 |
Sonya Ramsey | Going back to church, which church did you— | 3:57 |
Nell Simmons Oxner | St. James AME Church in Savannah. St. James AME, that's African Methodist Episcopal Church in Savannah. I was brought up in that church and we had this little pipe organ upstairs, but downstairs, you would know a foot organ, someplace that you have to pedal your foot to play the music. And I started as a girl, I guess, about 12 or 13 years old. I played for the Sunday school and I played that organ. | 4:02 |
Nell Simmons Oxner | And then after they got some money and they bought a piano, then I had the piano, played the piano and because they had a piano upstairs in the church, but it was for the church purposes upstairs, and they had this pipe organ upstairs. And then I went to Savannah State, and it was Black. It was called Georgia State then. And after, let me see, finishing— Do I go on after finishing Georgia State? It was called Georgia State then. You just asked me the questions as you go along if you— | 4:31 |
Sonya Ramsey | Sure. Okay. Well, I wanted to go back a bit and ask more about your family. | 5:07 |
Nell Simmons Oxner | That's what I want you to stop. | 5:13 |
Sonya Ramsey | Can you describe your grandparents? Do you have any remembrances of your grandparents? | 5:15 |
Nell Simmons Oxner | Yes, I do. One grandparent died when I was about six or seven. She lived in South Carolina. And I don't remember too much about her other than she was very fair. She looked White. And she'd come to town, her little darker grandchildren, and people would be looking. And my mother was light but my father was Black. And the other two grandparents, I'm more familiar with them, my father's people. They had a nice farm in a place called— What's South Carolina? Well, I say Bluffton because it was very near to Bluffton. Bluffton might be more familiar. I think they have heard of that because it's close to Hilton Head, the resort, and they had plenty to eat. And they would come over to Savannah and bring things from the farm and everything forth. In the summer, we would be able to go over there and spend some summers with my grandparents. | 5:17 |
Nell Simmons Oxner | And I just adored that and loved that because after you played in the yard, she had it swept so clean. She had this little brush broom or something, and you could play out there. And then when night come, she'd have these big wooden tubs and she'd sit you on the long porch and bathe your feet. And we love that. We just let a big children, sometime 11, and she'd wash our feet and put us in this big straw bed. Oh, it was just marvelous. I just loved to go out there and stay with her, just about 20 some miles from Savannah. | 6:18 |
Sonya Ramsey | Do you remember any stories that they told you? | 6:52 |
Nell Simmons Oxner | Well, no, I don't remember any particular stories that they told us. No, I really don't. I remember when my mother told us about segregation though. She was very outspoken and I don't know, she's domineering too, she was. And she went to visit a sister on the west side of town once and she got on the streetcar and there were no seats in the back, but there was some in the front. And she sat down, and this White fella came up there to here. The White fella was sitting there, that's right. And she sat down beside him. And so, he got up and looked at her and said, "Do you know who I am?" or something. She says, "No, I don't know who you are." And he got up and walked on out and she said she was waiting for him. | 6:54 |
Nell Simmons Oxner | She said, "I just dare him to say anything to me or do anything else." She said, "Because I had on my high heel shoes, and I would get him." She's something, I tell you. And there were eight of us. My father was a pilot on a ferry boat that ran the waters of South Carolina and Georgia. And my mother was a homemaker, and I think she schooled all of us. He died quite young. And after dying quite young, my oldest brother decided to stop out so that they could educate me, he and a older sister. She taught piano lessons at home, my oldest sister. That's why I'm in debt to her. I always feel that I just can't do enough for her. | 7:52 |
Nell Simmons Oxner | After 12th grade, she started teaching piano music and working out anything she could do in order to send me to college, the first one. And my brother did the very same thing. And before he could get back to go to college, he was called to service and was killed in World War II. But now, the other six children, they all went to college, school and they were all good jobs, teachers, supervisors, whatnot. And we made it through beautifully. And really, I haven't had any bad experience as a Black person, even in the town of Savannah that I can relate to other than we knew we went to the back of the bus because I'm an old person, to be just 70s now, you know that's way back there when they didn't protest or anything. People are more meek or something. And your parents told you to be calm and behave yourself and whatnot. | 8:36 |
Nell Simmons Oxner | And if you went in a five and 10 or something like that, and there were Whites there and naturally your skin is darker. Well, they would wait on the Whites first. You would just wait. Sometimes, if I didn't want to wait or I didn't feel like it, I'd just walk on. I'd just go on out. You see? And I don't think I've had anything. People talk about it. When I went to Washington and worked in the Federal Security Agency there in the Health Department, people used to always ask me, "You're from Savannah?" Yes, they had a bad image of the South at that time anyway because Washington is the South too, but they didn't believe it. And I said, "No." Said, "Don't they hang people?" And all I said, "Well, I don't know anything about they did in Savannah proper." I said, "Maybe I've heard about it as a child, but I haven't seen it or I haven't experienced it." "Nothing like that?" I said, "No, nothing. I haven't had a bad experience at all like that." | 9:28 |
Sonya Ramsey | Going back, I'm going to ask you, what kind of values did your parents instill in you to be able to handle—? | 10:28 |
Nell Simmons Oxner | Oh my goodness. "Every day before you left that house, I want you to behave yourself, do what you're supposed to do, pay attention to your teachers and get what you supposed to get out of that school. And I don't want them to have to call me for anything." That's the thing. That was the story. You see, it's different now. When you go, "Don't let anybody take advantage of you." That's what they say now, "Don't let nobody bother you." or, "You look out for yourself." No. "You behave yourself," that's what they told us. "Get your schoolwork." That's right. "And do what you're supposed to do." And when we came home in the afternoon, everybody had homework. If they didn't give you any, she would see that you get some. And then, the older persons would help the younger. And we would just get our homework out and we're just well-behaved group. She kept us together. I guess, they said she was just— I don't know how she did it, but we did it. | 10:34 |
Sonya Ramsey | How did your mother manage the childcare? After your father passed away, did she have to work outside the home? | 11:29 |
Nell Simmons Oxner | No, she was called to— Let me see, somebody reported that maybe she could use some help with eight children. And let me see what the name of the thing was. WPA, I think it was the Works Progress Administration, I believe, was during Roosevelt's time. And they hired her for a short time as a seamstress. They were sewing things for the soldiers in the army. And then, coming home in an automobile, once somebody was bringing her home, she fell out and broke her arm. And then she had to give that up. But it was solely my brother, and my oldest brother who was killed in World War II and my oldest sister who really saw us through because my father died before Social Security. And then you see, he hadn't accumulated that much because a family of eight and the mother, the father, that was something else. | 11:35 |
Sonya Ramsey | Can you describe your home? What did it look like? | 12:36 |
Nell Simmons Oxner | Well, it was a big two-story house. Let me see how many rooms. We had about seven or eight rooms, one bath. And at the beginning, we had a coal stove in the dining room and then we had little oil. You don't know anything about those little oil stoves that you would carry by the handle from room to room. My mother would take them upstairs and heat them, light them, and then, they would warm the room a little bit and then she would turn it up because she wouldn't dare go to sleep and leave that burning. And that would take the cold air off the room before going to bed. | 12:39 |
Nell Simmons Oxner | And then, this one big heater in the dining room where we all centered around. Usually, we sat there and it was right off the living room. You're right close to the living room, so it would warm that place too because they used coal in it, that black, funny coal. And we had a wood stove at the beginning, then we got an oil stove, then we went on up like that. | 13:22 |
Sonya Ramsey | And what kind of chores did you do around the house? | 13:48 |
Nell Simmons Oxner | Much was washing dishes. Everybody had something to do. And if they told me, mother told me she wanted me to dusk or rinse out something or do something, they want to do it because what? I'm going to wash the dishes. If you wash the dishes and it's my time, and I would wash the dishes. So it just got to the place where I did most of it. And you can imagine how many dishes I washed for that number of people. But they would do anything. They did not like to wash dishes. And I enjoyed it. I loved it. So I did more of that than anything else. | 13:53 |
Nell Simmons Oxner | And my oldest sister, she did a lot of ironing. She was a beautiful ironer. My mother did the washing, and my sister could iron her shirt beautifully and anything. And she cooked a lot for my mother, especially if she was ailing or something like that, my oldest sister. And by the way, she's ill now and I call about three or four times a week to Savannah. I just called this morning, and we have somebody there looking after her day and night, and she's up in her 80s and not doing too well. But I just love her to death, just like a mother to me. | 14:27 |
Nell Simmons Oxner | And I didn't have to do any cooking or anything. I did a little bit but not much because my mother loved to cook. And then my father, his job on this boat was at nights. And when he came home in the morning, he liked to cook too. He would cook sometimes, and she would still be in bed and he'd start the cooking. He liked to cook. | 15:03 |
Sonya Ramsey | What was his specialty? | 15:26 |
Nell Simmons Oxner | Soups. He liked soups. | 15:26 |
Sonya Ramsey | Oh. | 15:26 |
Nell Simmons Oxner | Yeah. He likes soups. And hot things. He liked to make it hot. He liked pepper. I remember that. But I think I'm a poor subject because I really don't have any very bad, segregated, serious. | 15:29 |
Sonya Ramsey | We're not actually— we're looking for life, people's lives. We know that people had complex lives. | 15:46 |
Nell Simmons Oxner | Yes. | 15:54 |
Sonya Ramsey | Happy lives and simple parts too. | 15:54 |
Nell Simmons Oxner | Oh yes. | 15:55 |
Sonya Ramsey | That's what we're trying to get is actual lives. | 15:56 |
Nell Simmons Oxner | Yes. | 15:56 |
Sonya Ramsey | That was great. Your stories are great. | 15:56 |
Nell Simmons Oxner | Yes. | 15:56 |
Sonya Ramsey | I'm going to ask you, did you go back to your home? Did your mother sew and did you have gardens? | 16:03 |
Nell Simmons Oxner | My mother could sew a little, but she didn't have to do much of it because she had a sister who was an expert seamstress. And Janie did all of our little gingham dresses and things for nothing. | 16:04 |
Sonya Ramsey | Did you have a lot of extended family in your— | 16:16 |
Nell Simmons Oxner | Yes. My mother had four other sisters, and she had one brother, four other sisters, one brother. One sister live in Bluffton and the others live in Savannah. And each one of those sisters had about 10 or 11 children. My mother had the smallest number. She had eight children. So I had about, at one time, I know 50-some first cousins right there. You see? Wasn't that something? I'm telling you a lot of them and a lot of them are there now. Of course, some of them are in Connecticut and some in New York and California in different places. But a few are still around South Carolina and Savannah. | 16:17 |
Sonya Ramsey | And what was the holidays like with such a big family? | 16:57 |
Nell Simmons Oxner | Oh, the holidays were just at home with the family. And you see, your family was your company. You see, you didn't have to have too many other people coming in because you played with one another, and you entertain one another. And we had a piano. We played our piano and sang and sang notes and all that sort of thing. Danced and taught the other one how to dance in the living room, taught my brother how to waltz and things, entertain ourselves. | 17:00 |
Sonya Ramsey | What do you mean sing notes? What do you mean by that? | 17:28 |
Nell Simmons Oxner | You take a piece of sheet music like this, and you have the notes. You don't know the tune of the song, but you look at the note, and you find out what key it's in. And then you said, "Well, do would be on this level here." And then you say, "Well this is do, the next would be mi." And then you say, do-mi-so. And you figure it out like that. And then, you can get the tune of the song and hum that, work on that. And we could do that. We could figure out a song even before you play it on the piano by the notes, singing the notes. If I had a little songbook here, something like that, I could tell you. And then they taught that in our elementary school also. We had an excellent music teacher in the primary grades, and she taught us how to sing notes too. And my father loved music, and he would help us with that too. He loved it. | 17:30 |
Sonya Ramsey | Right now, let us go on to— so, do you have any special remembrances of your teachers? | 18:27 |
Nell Simmons Oxner | Oh yes. I had a second grade teacher, big fat second grade teacher, Miss Vitma that I loved very much. She was a precious lady. And I had a sixth grade teacher, Miss Queenie, that I was very fond of. And we had one, Miss Netty, I'll never forget Miss Netty, I don't remember her last name, but she was a fifth grade teacher. But she taught language arts. She was a stickler for punctuation. Oh, you got to be just perfect and just right. And then, I was timid too and afraid that if I didn't get my sentences passed correctly, you'd get hit with this little paddle she had. And she would write these long sentences on the board, and then you would have to go up there and put the parts of speech on top of every word. And you couldn't miss any, because if you missed any, you would get cracked on the knuckles, see? | 18:34 |
Nell Simmons Oxner | And so, you know how we studied, man. And I would never miss out. I guess that's what helped me along the way to be pretty good in that. When I got to Savannah State College, they told me, "You should take English." But I majored in home ec because then I took that as a second, as a minor because I was afraid of that lady. I said, "I'm going to get this thing so she won't crack my knuckle." And she put these sentences. The girls would do pretty well, but the boys, poor little boys. They didn't know a noun from an adjective. Nothing. They couldn't get that stuff right. And she— and go back and sit down and go sit down. It was the funniest thing. I enjoyed that. But I enjoyed that class and I learned an awful lot of English in that fifth grade class, I'm telling you. It carried me through. | 19:33 |
Sonya Ramsey | What was your high school like? | 20:20 |
Nell Simmons Oxner | And high school was just about some very good experiences and some very good teachers. I liked them all. A special biology teacher and a math teacher that I like very much. And this math teacher, by the way, he left Savannah and went to Fisk, that was his alma mater. And I think he was in charge of the alumni there. So one of my coworker's husband told me one day, this was many years ago, at least 18 or 19 years ago, that, "Do you know that the man in charge of the alumni at my school, that Fisk is coming to Charlotte to start an alumni group here? And he's from Savannah, so you would know him?" "I said, I certainly do. He taught me algebra and geometry at Savannah High." So he said, Well, he's coming. I'm going to bring him to your house. Okay?" I said, "Fine." | 20:22 |
Nell Simmons Oxner | So he brought him to where I was living, in another section of town, and Mr. Donnelley came in. We had a lot of talk, talking about the class members and different children and what happened to them and all that sort of thing. And then it dawned on me, I said, "I'm going to ask Mr. Donnelley what he remembers best about me." I asked him, and you know what he said? You wouldn't believe it. He said, "I believe I remember those long fingernails you had." I thought he was going to say something good about the math and stuff. I said, "Well, isn't that something? | 21:19 |
Nell Simmons Oxner | Because at that time, we girls would go to the five and 10 and buy Heart's Cologne, you don't know about that, for 10 cent and some kind of sweet talcum powder to put down here, so you'd be sweet and you'd have a little spinning change and then go to town on Saturday, four or five girls together. You always go together. You don't go by yourself. Sisters and brothers and a few close school friends. And then we buy nail polish. At that time, if I had on a little green skirt, a little green blouse, I'd have green polish. If I had on a black skirt, I had black. Imagine that, black polish and things like that. And I used to let them grow real long and I said, "Well, I don't know why he would remember that." And that's what he told me. I thought of that. So I said, "Well then, you come back, Mr. Donnelley, I'm going to have dinner here for you." But he didn't get back. He died, I think about a year or two after he came to Charlotte. And I didn't get to see him anymore. | 21:58 |
Sonya Ramsey | You said during high school when you went to go shopping, you never went by yourself. Why was that? | 22:52 |
Nell Simmons Oxner | No, because we weren't supposed to go by yourself. You had to go with a sister or a brother or a classmate, a close friend who would come by and you go in threes and fours, we always did. I guess the elderly people thought that was safe or something. I don't know why. Nobody ever bothered us. We went to the Main Street, West Broad Street and did our little shopping up and down the street. | 22:58 |
Sonya Ramsey | Were they scared from the White people or no? | 23:20 |
Nell Simmons Oxner | No. I don't think so, but I don't know. It was just training. It was just, you;re always supposed to have company or something. I don't know. Jerome, why always you go with somebody? | 23:24 |
Jerome | The conditions of the [indistinct 00:23:37] that you all have. | 23:34 |
Nell Simmons Oxner | Yes. Oh, apparent. | 23:34 |
Jerome | [indistinct 00:23:40] have been through down here. It continued from the wall with all the squares. There would always be a group from your tribe to be protected from the ones who would attack you. | 23:44 |
Nell Simmons Oxner | I don't know, but it came up through the ramp. I had three or four good schoolmates, and we'd go and get these big earrings and put them in our ear. I guess about 25 cent a piece and a 10-cent box of big brown powder. We'd be so, "Ooh, we look like Indians." I don't know what? We put that powder on your face, two, three coats. | 23:51 |
Nell Simmons Oxner | And then we had an English teacher that I adored and Elene, several friends. And I would go down the basement and put that brown face powder on our face before class, be in the basement, getting all pompadoured up. And then we would strike a match and blow it out and make a mole, put it on our face. And then, we'd go upstairs and when we'd get upstairs, now we'd go into our home class, Mr. Hanes, an excellent, great, big old too, looked like a giant to us at that time. Big, old, tall bald headed man. And he's standing in the door just like that. And when we'd get to the door, he said, "Ms. Simmons, Miss Pares, go right on back. Go right on back down and clean up and then come back up." That means go right on back, wash your face, get straight and come right on back up. I tell you, it was the funniest. | 24:10 |
Sonya Ramsey | Where did your children go in high school? Where did you all get your ideas of fashion and beauty from? | 25:02 |
Nell Simmons Oxner | From magazines and the newspaper. And then, you listen to the radio, didn't have any television. And we go to the movies and we see what people did and how they looked. | 25:06 |
Jerome | Cut the tape, will you? [INTERRUPTION 00:25:23] | 25:18 |
Sonya Ramsey | Okay. We were talking about that you got your ideas about fashion? | 25:18 |
Nell Simmons Oxner | Oh yes, that's right. Yes, in the movie. See, those days, we could go downtown and buy little magazines, a True Confession or whatnot. We'd hide them and you'd take them home, put them under the pillow. But mother came upstairs because you're not supposed to be reading those things. And you'd read it and hear her coming up the steps, we'd put them under the pillow, all kinds of stuff. It was the funniest thing. | 25:25 |
Nell Simmons Oxner | And you'd buy sheet music. And my sister played. And I think they must have been about 15 or 25 cent. And she could play the music on the piano, my oldest sister, for us. And then she taught me how to play. And then I would play this music so we could entertain ourselves. And then sometimes, you could buy the popular songs of the day. They were printed out on little white sheets, something like this. And you just take them, and you learn the words of the song so you can just sing them. You heard the tune on the radio, whatnot. Oh, that's entertainment. I guess. That's what we did mostly. | 25:48 |
Sonya Ramsey | What type of music did you play? | 26:29 |
Nell Simmons Oxner | Moon Over Miami. Well, let me see. What are those most popular songs? Don't Get Around Much Anymore. You wouldn't remember those, baby, because it's before your time, before your mother's time. And Blue Moon. Let me see. See, I don't know, just a lot of old, old songs. It's so long, I can hardly remember them myself. But my sister had all these sheet music on the piano. We'd play them and sang them. | 26:32 |
Sonya Ramsey | Did you listen to the blues or anything like that? | 27:01 |
Nell Simmons Oxner | Well, not particularly. No, I don't recall listening to those. I like those popular music better, I think. | 27:04 |
Sonya Ramsey | And what did your school do? Did they have any clubs or they participate in extracurricular activities? | 27:11 |
Nell Simmons Oxner | Yes, I was in the glee club. I sang in the glee club. And then of course we had little clubs that was formed in the church, little social clubs that we'd meet at homes and serve little refreshment and save little nickels and dimes. And then you get this money at Christmas time, that type of thing. | 27:18 |
Sonya Ramsey | The church social clubs, what other kind of things, did you have dances or parties or was that not done? | 27:42 |
Nell Simmons Oxner | What, parties you mean? | 27:50 |
Sonya Ramsey | Mm-hmm. | 27:50 |
Nell Simmons Oxner | Oh no, they only celebrated certain things like Easter time or Christmas time. They would have affairs at the church. They would have a program and you'd have to be on it. And I think I was on these programs until I was about 12 or 13. I just refused to be on it anymore. I said, "I'm too large to get up and make speeches and take a part." I didn't want to, so I finally was able to stop. But you had to do that because you went to Sunday school, and you had to go to 11 o'clock service. And if you didn't, sometimes we'd go home and mother would say, "What did you come home for? You go out on back. It's almost time for church. Why didn't you stay? And I'm fixing dinner and I'll be there in a few minutes." | 27:50 |
Nell Simmons Oxner | And then, sometimes you get to go back to, I think the Baptist said, BYPU— we call it Lee, Allen Kristen and Deborah Lee. That was six o'clock. And then sometimes, you had to go visit another church. And then I played for the little junior group. And I think the year before I finished Georgia State College, they had a falling out with the organist, and they asked me to play the organ for the church, play for the senior choir. And they hired a music teacher in the city of Savannah, Mr. Roberts. I'll always remember him. He taught me how to play the pipe organ. And I played for the church, I think, about one year before I got my first job teaching. And it was in a place called Louisville, Georgia. | 28:29 |
Nell Simmons Oxner | The pastor took me to— Where did he take me? To Sandersville, Georgia. And he took me to Louisville, Georgia and took me to— oh, another place, a pretty big place in Georgia. I forgot the name of this place. But I decided on Louisville. It wasn't as large as the other two, and it wasn't even a brick building. It was a great big wooden building. But I went there because I knew somebody there, a fellow from Savannah. He was the principal there, his name was Edward Pezan. And I took that job and I stayed there for two years. Yes, I stayed two years at this job. Then after I left that job, I decided that I would go somewhere else. | 29:16 |
Nell Simmons Oxner | And after I came home, a friend of mine, a high school friend, told me about a job in Bainbridge, Georgia. And she said, "I was offered the job, but I'm playing for this church and I like this. I don't think I'll go, will you go?" And I went there and stayed a year and a half. I finished somebody's time out of half, and then another year. | 30:10 |
Nell Simmons Oxner | And when I got back to Savannah that summer, I told my sister, the one just called me then on the phone, Bessie, I said, "I think I want to do some government work and I'm going down to the post office and take a test, a government test and get to Washington." I don't think I'm going to teach anymore. So she said, "I'll go with you." So I set up the arrangement with the post office people. And when it was time to go, she reneged. She didn't go. I went and took the test and passed, and I was sent to Washington DC. I knew someone there, somebody from Savannah. So I stayed with her short time. And I was sent to the Census Bureau. Well, I had to get up 5:30 in the morning because I was going about changing on the streetcar about three or four different times to get to Suitland, Maryland. That's where the Census Bureau was at that time because that was in the 40s, the early 40s. | 30:32 |
Sonya Ramsey | Oh, before we get— | 31:27 |
Nell Simmons Oxner | Yes. | 31:31 |
Sonya Ramsey | Can we go— I wanted to go back. I had a few more questions about high school then I'm out. | 31:31 |
Nell Simmons Oxner | Yes, yes. | 31:34 |
Sonya Ramsey | —and college. | 31:35 |
Nell Simmons Oxner | All right. | 31:36 |
Sonya Ramsey | Did they have a May Day activities? | 31:38 |
Nell Simmons Oxner | Yes. | 31:40 |
Sonya Ramsey | What was that like? | 31:40 |
Nell Simmons Oxner | And a platinum maypole. Yes, we did that. That was beautiful. Yes, we did that. And we would have programs inside the schoolhouse. We'd come in and have a program in the school. And I was always doing something, trying to sing something. I didn't think I could sing, but the teachers thought I could. I'd been in the chorus. I would sing these little funny songs with all of the tra, la, la, la, la, and all that sort of stuff. I didn't want to, but I had to because mother would kill me if I didn't. And then they had something called Field Day. It starts at the school and then they would march up a certain street, the whole school. And they would have flags of the school, of the city and the state. And they'd have children beating the drum and doing this and all that a certain time of day. And it was just a wonderful time called May Day exercises or something like that. Yes, we did have that. We certainly did. | 31:41 |
Sonya Ramsey | Okay. And also, why did you decide to teach and major in home economics instead of music? | 32:41 |
Nell Simmons Oxner | It's the funniest thing. My best girlfriend wanted to do that. And she said, "Go along with me." And I said, "Well, I'm not so up on that, but I guess I will." And I decided. She said, "Let's make it our major." See, she influenced me at that time, Elizabeth Wells. She's in New York now. She has a daughter here and whenever she comes, we get together. So I took that and then that's what I did. Two years, only two years as the first job. And then, I went to this other place. It was a Baptist school, a private Baptist school in Bainbridge. I stayed there a year and a half and then I decided I would go to Washington. | 32:50 |
Sonya Ramsey | Why did you decide on Savannah State? Because it was local? I mean, Georgia State? | 33:32 |
Nell Simmons Oxner | Georgia State? Well, I wanted to go to South Carolina State really. You know how children have things in mind. But my sister and brother had said, but they couldn't afford to do that. They couldn't send me. But it was easier for me to go right there. I could see that and I understood it. I had some friends from Savannah who were going to Savannah State, Orangeburg, South Carolina, someplace. And I wanted to go. But I said, "A college degree is a college degree." So even though I'm home, you see I could stay at home, and I was a day student. I went on the streetcar. They brought me tokens and I went out every day on the streetcar because it was about five miles. The college was five miles from my home on the streetcar every day, and then came back. And that's when I tried out for the chorus and was accepted too, as a mezzo-soprano. But I couldn't participate because I was a day student, I had to come on back in, you know, certain time. And when they had rehearsal, I wasn't able to be there. | 33:37 |
Sonya Ramsey | What did you do? Did you have to do any other jobs to help support yourself? | 34:39 |
Nell Simmons Oxner | Yes. And finally, just before I finished, I had this church job too. They paid me for teaching. Some man that knew my people, he's a member of the church. He was a principal of a night school, you call it, where they educate people late, so they can go and get their high school education. And this was at my junior high school where I used to attend. And another friend of mine and I were selected to go over there and work in the office as secretaries. And we worked over there at Collar. And the office, ooh my goodness, that must have been in— before your mother was born, '37 or '38? 1938 or something when we were the secretaries in the night school where they taught people to finish high school at nights. | 34:43 |
Sonya Ramsey | Before we keep going, one other question that I thought of about. | 35:32 |
Nell Simmons Oxner | Yes. | 35:35 |
Sonya Ramsey | What was dating like in high school and things like that? | 35:36 |
Nell Simmons Oxner | Who? | 35:38 |
Sonya Ramsey | Dating, what was that like? | 35:38 |
Nell Simmons Oxner | Oh, I had a boyfriend. I didn't care about boys that much, but my last year in high school, I met a boy that I like. He's from Tuscaloosa, Alabama, and his name is Frederick Marshall. And he would come around. Everybody's always there. You sit. And if you go to the theater, another sister, somebody's going with you. Everybody went everywhere. | 35:42 |
Nell Simmons Oxner | And it's the funniest thing. I went to burry a brother-in-law two months ago in Savannah, and I hadn't seen Fred since I went to burry my brother in 1944 from the Army, the one that was killed the Army, they brought his body home in '44 and I was in Washington. So I went to Savannah, and I saw him then in '44. And then I hadn't seen him since then. This is the same first fellow I'm telling you about. So when I went to bury my brother-in-law two months ago, a lady came over to me. We were at this church. They were eating. They had already buried him, and they came back to the church to feed the family. | 36:07 |
Nell Simmons Oxner | And I was there and she said, "There's somebody here who wants to see you." And said, "This person took you to your high school prom." I said, "What? And I got up and looked and he was standing up. It's not like my husband could talk. And I went over there and we hugged one up and [indistinct 00:37:04] haven't seen Fred since '44. He did take me to the prom. | 36:43 |
Sonya Ramsey | What's your prom like? | 37:08 |
Nell Simmons Oxner | It was beautiful. I remember lovely. I never forget it. There were 88 of us. There were 88. When we finished ninth grade, we used to graduate out of ninth grade then, there were 122. But when we got out of high school, it had dwindled to 88. 88 people. Let me see what this is. I don't know if I put it in here or not, but I thought I had it. Look at this. That might be. Can you imagine that? | 37:10 |
Sonya Ramsey | Nice. Did they have a band there? | 37:50 |
Nell Simmons Oxner | Yes. Yes, we did. Yes, we had a band and an orchestra, yes. Yeah. | 37:56 |
Sonya Ramsey | Okay. I guess you could go on. You were talking about going back. You were talking about working as a secretary. | 38:00 |
Nell Simmons Oxner | Oh yes, at the night school. That's right. | 38:10 |
Sonya Ramsey | How you were in [indistinct 00:38:13]. | 38:12 |
Nell Simmons Oxner | Right, that's right. Before I got this job teaching. Just before I finished college, I had that. And it was called the NYA, National Youth Administration, I think it was. | 38:13 |
Sonya Ramsey | Okay. | 38:24 |
Nell Simmons Oxner | Yes. | 38:24 |
Sonya Ramsey | Okay. Well, after you finished Savannah State, why did you decide to go to the other school? How did you choose that school? | 38:24 |
Nell Simmons Oxner | Let me see now. I was in Washington. Right now, I had already graduated and I was working in the government service, and Jerome had come to— I got to get this, I got to bring him in. He came to Savannah my last year in college. He had got his first job. He was at A&T College, and he was in the shop. They call it industrial arts. And they had a meeting at Savannah State. And I was in the home ec class, and I was chosen to be a hostess and to serve and entertain the men from out of town, the teachers from out of town. And that's how we met. | 38:34 |
Sonya Ramsey | Nice. | 39:17 |
Nell Simmons Oxner | Yeah. And then he started corresponding with me and writing and things like that. And I think we did that about 10 years before we finally decided. I was in Washington and everything, or running around and he was waiting on me to come here, and I was excited about being in Washington, and I wanted him to come there. He didn't want to come there. So finally, I said, "I would have to." And his aunt had told me that she could get a job for me, but it would be in elementary education, not home ec. | 39:17 |
Nell Simmons Oxner | So I said, "Well, I have to renew my certificate." Because see, it had run out while I was in there. So I went to Howard University and renewed my certificate, and I came here in '49. We got married. She told me that, go to Johnson C. Smith University and find out what the requirements were for the elementary education, since I had a science major, I'd have to change to education. So I did that and found out I needed 33 hours in education, childhood education. So I did it. | 39:44 |
Nell Simmons Oxner | It took me one whole year and one summer session because things I needed, certain quarters I couldn't get. So I went a whole year, and I got it. Then I got my first job, this all Black elementary school. And as soon as I got there, then the principal started talking about working on your master's. So I think his school was Columbia. So I went to Columbia University. I had a sister living in New York who was a supervisor at a daycare center up there. And I stayed with her. And there's my baby sister, and got my master's up in New York, came back. I worked until I retired in '78. | 40:21 |
Sonya Ramsey | Okay. I guess I wanted to go back. | 41:04 |
Nell Simmons Oxner | Yes. | 41:06 |
Sonya Ramsey | If you could describe, how was Washington compared to Savannah and what was your reaction to Washington? | 41:07 |
Nell Simmons Oxner | It was not much difference at that time. I don't know if you could understand that way back in 1943 or 1944. It was just a great big spread-out city, and I had no problems. And I learned to get around quite well by a streetcar. And I lived in a dormitory with some other people from all parts of the world who come to Washington. It's a great big dormitory. I left— | 41:12 |
Sonya Ramsey | How did you find where you were going to live in Washington? | 41:39 |
Nell Simmons Oxner | I knew a lady from Savannah who lived there, and I'd already contacted her, and I went with her first to her house. She was a classmate of my oldest sister in Savannah. And she'd already been in Washington for years. | 41:42 |
Sonya Ramsey | Which part of Washington was that? | 41:55 |
Nell Simmons Oxner | Northwest section. | 41:57 |
Sonya Ramsey | Was it near Howard University? | 41:58 |
Nell Simmons Oxner | Yes, it was. | 42:00 |
Sonya Ramsey | I think I know it. Was it called Slowe Hall? | 42:01 |
Nell Simmons Oxner | Yes. | 42:03 |
Sonya Ramsey | Oh, I would always wonder if I'd stay there. | 42:03 |
Nell Simmons Oxner | Yeah. Oh, you went to Howard? | 42:07 |
Sonya Ramsey | Yes, I did. | 42:07 |
Nell Simmons Oxner | Oh. My niece went one year, and then she left and went back to New York where she was born, brought up and finished there and took her nursing there. And she's in California now. She's a registered nurse. | 42:10 |
Sonya Ramsey | We better get back to you. | 42:26 |
Nell Simmons Oxner | Yes. | 42:26 |
Sonya Ramsey | Did you have friends in Washington? | 42:26 |
Nell Simmons Oxner | Yes. Because after I stayed with this lady for a while, and she had her sister living with her. And then, after I decided I wanted to move— It was a funny thing about the moving though. I don't know if I'd tell you about why I moved. And then I met somebody on the job, and they told me about this dormitory on U Street, Northwest. It says, over the Club Benghazi, I remember that distinctly. And a lot of GI girls, they call them government girls, are living there and said, "You could get in there." And I went over there and applied and got the job. | 42:28 |
Nell Simmons Oxner | I mean, I got the place over there and I shared room with a hairdresser. She had a hair saloon right in that building. The Club Benghazi was at the bottom. And that's where I first heard Sarah Vaughan singing at Club Benghazi. She was just starting out. Yes. Billy Eckstine was her prodigy. He found her. And she was just trying, just starting. And that was underneath where I was living in Club Benghazi. And I stayed there five years before I decided to come here. | 43:03 |
Sonya Ramsey | I wanted to ask you about living in the dormitory. You said you lived with people from around the world, you lived with White people? | 43:35 |
Nell Simmons Oxner | No, but they were all Black still. | 43:41 |
Sonya Ramsey | Okay. | 43:43 |
Nell Simmons Oxner | Ain't that something? The only mixture like in a class or in a section was when I went to Columbia University. | 43:43 |
Sonya Ramsey | When you went to Columbia, what was that like? What was New York like, compared? You went from Washington to Columbia, right? | 43:52 |
Nell Simmons Oxner | Yes. To Columbia University and I commuted by train from my sister's house in the Bronx, downtown Broadway every day and back. And it was a beautiful experience and I enjoyed it. And the people were friendly. They're very nice. The classes were extremely large. But it was just a wonderful experience. | 43:57 |
Nell Simmons Oxner | And I remember making contact with a librarian who had a relative down South, and then he said, "Well, what are you looking for today?" And I said, "Well, I got to find so and so." He said, "Well, this is the sections. No needing looking anymore. Come right over here." And I thought that was nice. He was delicate too. And I was very friendly with him and he was very nice to me. And I'd sit up there and then sometimes I'd go back to the Bronx to do my studying in the library where my sister was. But most time, I'd just stay right on the campus. | 44:16 |
Nell Simmons Oxner | I had a counselor, he's supposed to counsel you on your program, making your program and whatnot. But I knew what I was supposed to take. I'd already read the information and found out and I knew. And every time I'd get to Mr. Hill's office, he was a professor from Atlanta University, I don't know his first name. His last name was Hill. It was way back in '52 or '53, or something like that. | 44:50 |
Nell Simmons Oxner | All the girls would be there and you couldn't get in there. And I said, "I'm wasting time." And I still got to go up in the Bronx. I can't stay right here all day. So I would go to the library just to figure my stuff out myself and do my own thing. And then just try to see him some other time. He was attractive looking Black man. He was a teacher. He was a teacher there in the summer. He was from Atlanta University, and he worked at Columbia University in the summer. | 45:11 |
Sonya Ramsey | Okay. | 45:37 |
Nell Simmons Oxner | You understand? But I think those little flirties were there trying to just be in his face, to see him, I guess, and talk to him. He was a handsome looking, fine looking thing. And yeah, that's it. So I said, "Well, I don't get in there too often, but I'll just write and do the best I can." And then I'll get him to see what some of my papers whenever I can. But it was always a crowd around Professor Hill's office though. I always remember that. | 45:37 |
Sonya Ramsey | Were there a lot of other Blacks at Columbia? Were you around Whites students? | 46:03 |
Nell Simmons Oxner | Blacks and Whites, there was a great mixture. Yeah. A lot of Blacks from the South. Some went to New York University. I think the majority went there, but there were quite a few at Columbia at that time. | 46:07 |
Sonya Ramsey | How did White students react to you? | 46:19 |
Nell Simmons Oxner | Just normally, I hadn't had any experience with people acting strangely or peculiar at all. At least I don't feel it. I don't know. I guess it might be there, but they don't show it. I don't feel it. | 46:21 |
Sonya Ramsey | You lived in the Bronx, how was that experience? | 46:38 |
Nell Simmons Oxner | It was mixed too. And there were a lot of foreigners, Puerto Ricans and West Indians and Whites because my sister lived in a project when she first got up there. And we'd all meet out on the bench and talk in the afternoons or we'd meet in the hall or down the elevators coming and everybody was friendly and sociable. And in the stores that you attended, everybody, I had no bad experience. | 46:41 |
Sonya Ramsey | What did you do for social life there in New York? | 47:06 |
Nell Simmons Oxner | We just went to the movies, my sister and I, that's all. Went to the movies and back studying most of the time. | 47:11 |
Sonya Ramsey | Did you go to church there? | 47:19 |
Nell Simmons Oxner | Yes. | 47:21 |
Nell Simmons Oxner | — Went to this Methodist church and she played for this church. | 0:01 |
Sonya Ramsey | Was it a big difference between the church in New York or in Washington versus Savannah? | 0:04 |
Nell Simmons Oxner | No. No, I didn't find any difference. I really didn't. | 0:09 |
Sonya Ramsey | Okay. I guess we'll go on to Washington. You said you heard Sarah Vaughan. What was that experience like? | 0:13 |
Nell Simmons Oxner | That was, I'm telling you something. She was singing and it was in the club downstairs, so we got to go downstairs in this club to hear Sarah. And it was beautiful. She was a young person then too, very young, and she didn't have all the slurs and exaggerations and her singing like she acquired in later years. I liked it better then. It was very, very good. | 0:19 |
Nell Simmons Oxner | And that reminds me too, I heard Billy Eckstine, my sister took me to— What was the name of that theater, that someplace in New York City once Billy Eckstine was there. And I heard him sing his first song, Jelly Jelly, and Without A Song, and that's my favorite of old things because the last song I played for that brother before he passed, before he'd been overseas and died, Danny Boy. And Billy Eckstine died, and another one he sang, and he was a youngster too, singing on the stage. I forgot the name of that theater. Very popular and everybody knows about it. | 0:41 |
Sonya Ramsey | Lincoln, was it the Howard Theater? | 1:25 |
Nell Simmons Oxner | No, no, not the Howard Theater. Oh no. But I went to the Howard Theater once or twice to see some of those big bands. Yes, I did get to see a few big bands. It was Jimmy Lunceford and— you wouldn't know those. Your grandparents would know them. And some other pop of the band leaders at that particular time. Cootie Williams and what's that other one? Some other ones, but I've heard a few when they would come to town and go to the Howard Theater, we would try to go. Some of the girls in the dormitory would get together and go. | 1:27 |
Sonya Ramsey | So you said they were from different parts of the— | 2:07 |
Nell Simmons Oxner | Yes, country. | 2:10 |
Sonya Ramsey | So how did you make friends with— What kind of friends did you have? Did you have different friends? | 2:12 |
Nell Simmons Oxner | Yeah, very good friends. And even the ones I met in my office where we work at department, very good. And we would even visit sometimes on Sunday afternoons, go to one another's house and talk socialize or make plan to go to a movie together or something like that in Washington. | 2:16 |
Sonya Ramsey | When you worked for the census bureau, did you work among Whites? | 2:35 |
Nell Simmons Oxner | Yes. Yes. It was mixed. | 2:36 |
Sonya Ramsey | What was that experience like? | 2:38 |
Nell Simmons Oxner | That was a good experience too. Very— | 2:39 |
Sonya Ramsey | Did you feel any awkwardness? | 2:44 |
Nell Simmons Oxner | No, I didn't. | 2:46 |
Sonya Ramsey | Where did you get your— Because usually being in segregated environments, I would feel kind of funny all of the sudden. | 2:46 |
Nell Simmons Oxner | I don't know, but it's something about me. I made the adjustment beautifully. It was just wonderful. I didn't have any problems at all. I worked well with the Whites. They'd be here and I'd be here and we'd get along, socialize, talking and it was just not a problem with me. It's just like another person. | 2:50 |
Sonya Ramsey | Did you socialize outside of work with them? | 3:10 |
Nell Simmons Oxner | Did I do what? | 3:13 |
Sonya Ramsey | Socialize outside of work with them? | 3:14 |
Nell Simmons Oxner | No, I didn't have any outside association with any White friends like that. No, just on the job like that. | 3:16 |
Sonya Ramsey | Did you not want— Why is that? Did you not to? | 3:23 |
Nell Simmons Oxner | I just didn't plan it. Just didn't plan to do that. I guess I just always stayed with my group. No, but I have nothing against them, I'll tell you. No, not at all. | 3:26 |
Sonya Ramsey | So then after working in Washington, you went back and you got married— | 3:40 |
Nell Simmons Oxner | And came here. | 3:44 |
Sonya Ramsey | What was your wedding like? | 3:44 |
Nell Simmons Oxner | Well, we didn't have a big wedding. We decided to go to York, South Carolina. Have you heard of York? And got married there and came back. And it was from then on we were together and living with one another and doing things. And I met two girls at this first school I worked, and they were members of this church that I'm attending now. I had started going to another church, visiting, and they encouraged me to go to Grace AME Zion, my church that I'm attending now, so I went there and joined. And he was Baptist but soon after I joined, he came and joined with me at this African Methodist Episcopals Zion Church, so he's there. We own Brevard Street, that's the church on Brevard Street. | 3:47 |
Nell Simmons Oxner | And I have one social club, and I was in Phi Delta Kappa, but it folded about two years ago. That's a teacher's organization. And then I tutored for 11 years after I retired, but I put that down because my sister got sick in Savannah and we were off and gone. We'd go so often and I'd have to disappoint the people I were tutoring. So after 11 years last summer, I just put it down. I worked with the reading center here and tutored out of the reading center, Charlotte Area Literacy League, and resign while I was on the board. And I was also on the board of directors of the North Carolina Literacy League for three years. | 4:37 |
Sonya Ramsey | I wanted to go back and talk about your first teaching job in Charlotte? What was that like? | 5:31 |
Nell Simmons Oxner | Oh, well you know how it is when first you get on a new job, it seems as if they select— It might not be true, the worst students, and you got that class. That was a kind of tough class that very first year, I remember. | 5:36 |
Sonya Ramsey | And what grade? | 5:50 |
Nell Simmons Oxner | It was third grade. I was supposed to have had second grade. I had third grade I think one year, and then they gave me the grade that I was assigned to at first. But seemingly the need, somebody died right during that summer or something and they wanted somebody in third grade. And it was a tough class, but I worked with it because I stayed on my feet and I paced. I walked the room and I kept them down. | 5:53 |
Sonya Ramsey | How did you discipline them, if you could [indistinct 00:06:18] | 6:15 |
Nell Simmons Oxner | Had a little— you could smack them in the hands a little bit. I didn't do much whipping. You always had one or two little naughty ones and they'd try your patience, but I worked with it and let it down somehow. But I think that was the roughest class. I think that very first class. | 6:18 |
Sonya Ramsey | How big is the [indistinct 00:06:37]? | 6:35 |
Nell Simmons Oxner | It was a very large school. It's torn down now. The aquatic center here is exactly in the spot where I worked when I first came to Charlotte. | 6:37 |
Sonya Ramsey | What was the name of the school? | 6:46 |
Nell Simmons Oxner | Myers Street Elementary School. Myers Street. | 6:48 |
Sonya Ramsey | And you taught— How long did— Did you get along well— Did you not get along well with the other teachers? | 6:52 |
Nell Simmons Oxner | Yes, I did. Yes, I certainly did. And had a nice principal, got along well with the principal, enjoyed him very well. Then when they integrated, they sent us to First Ward, and that was over on Eighth Street in Charlotte over there at Eighth Street. They were just beginning integration. They had White teachers but no student at that time. They had some White teachers and Black teachers, but all the students were Black. And I worked there two years, and then they started full bloom integration with teachers and the students, and I was sent to Rama Road Elementary School. That's kind of what they call a blue stork and a white stork or whatever section way out on the other side of town. | 6:57 |
Nell Simmons Oxner | And it was told that one lady who was working with us, one White who was working with us at this school that I was transferred to when I left the all Black school, we had some Whites there, and they said this particular lady had told somebody to pull me, the principal, I was suggested to be one of the teachers from this First Ward to go to this school. And I think there were three of us and we went out. It was called Rama Road. It's still existing. It's out there now. Rama Road Elementary School. | 7:49 |
Sonya Ramsey | Why do you think they selected you as one of the teachers? | 8:27 |
Nell Simmons Oxner | I think this lady liked me, unlike my person there. Maybe she figured maybe I could get along with the people there or something. I will believe that because I've seen her walking by and looking and talking and seeing a few things and all that sort of thing, and I said— | 8:30 |
Sonya Ramsey | What did you think about integration? | 8:45 |
Nell Simmons Oxner | I didn't mind it at all. I got along fine. We had a lady at first, she stayed one year and then her father got sick, this White woman, and she had to go. And then my husband was working at junior high school and this principal asked to transfer to an elementary school. So when he came right to the school where I was and he said, "Well I feel right at home because I'm working with one of my ex teacher's wives," and said "Only I'm working with the pretty one too". He's a Yankee, he was from Pennsylvania originally, and we got along fine. People said he was sometime in peculiar and he'd walk right down the hall, so I heard him say and wouldn't say anything, but he always talked to me. He would come and make a visit and chat in my room, Mr. Lee. He's here in Charlotte now. He's retired. He told me to wait on him, but I wouldn't, he came out two years after I came out. | 8:47 |
Nell Simmons Oxner | And I think we had a beautiful relationship and he invited us to his house several times. The faculty members went to his house and all that other stuff, and invited us to his house since then, but we haven't been. I've met him I think once or twice since I retired in the mall and talked with him and his wife. And I couldn't find out— I don't think that he was, if he was prejudiced, it was deeply rooted. I didn't get it. Some people said, oh yes he was, but I didn't see it. To me he was fair and square. And I remember one year I had a lot of boys and he came, he said, "Nell, you got so many boys that just looks like we have a lot of boys this year." Said, "Do you want me to kick some of these little men out and get some girls for you?" And I said, "No, I think I can handle it, I'll handle it." In fact, I like boys. I can teach boys. It didn't make any difference. | 9:38 |
Sonya Ramsey | Did you always teach elementary school? | 10:36 |
Nell Simmons Oxner | Well, the very first job in Georgia was a high school home ec. Then from then, North Carolina, it was all elementary. And I took those boys, I had about 15, and about four or five girls. But he said I did an excellent job with them. They didn't bother me. I got along fine with them. | 10:38 |
Nell Simmons Oxner | And so we had a good relationship. In fact, he would call on me to do things and go last minute to go to different— Report for different little groups on certain little meetings that somebody refused to go or didn't want to go or something like that. Sometimes he'd take me out, send somebody to carry me or something like that. And I got along just fine. | 10:59 |
Sonya Ramsey | Why do you think— What aspects of your personality helped you be so agreeable and things like that? | 11:20 |
Nell Simmons Oxner | I think I'm just a cooperative person and I know how to get along and adjust in any situation. I believe that about myself, that I could talk to the highest and the lowest and get along. I know something to say to you, I can talk to you and feel comfortable with you. And it probably came from my upbringing. I had a strong mother who taught us how to get along with one another, and then I was the second oldest girl and the third oldest child and had these siblings under me. And I think all that helped with the adjustment. I can adjust, I just feel anywhere, feel comfortable with people. Any race, it doesn't matter. If you don't insult me or hit me or knock me, I can get along with you, I think. | 11:27 |
Sonya Ramsey | What kind of subjects did you, as a teacher and as a student when you were young, did you learn any Black history or anything like that? | 12:15 |
Nell Simmons Oxner | Just once in a while they would bring in something. See, because the histories, those days when we came along in church, they didn't have Black histories. But they'd mention one or two outstanding person during the Black history time, during the Black history month, and that's about all. All the other information you, you'd get that later. You'd get that in college and through your own reading. | 12:24 |
Sonya Ramsey | While you were teaching, you taught elementary school. What relationship did you have with the children's parents? | 12:51 |
Nell Simmons Oxner | Back then, they didn't come out too often. Very seldom you could get them to attend properly. They didn't come. Just about— oh, you'd have about four or five out of a class of 30 something. They didn't interested, seemingly. They figured that was your job and they just sent them and just get them out of their way and you'd do everything for them. And then when it's time for a PTA to come to discuss things, they weren't there. And especially the ones you wanted to see, say you want to talk about maybe a problem, a discipline problem or a learning problem or something. You didn't see them. | 12:58 |
Nell Simmons Oxner | You could go to their homes and we used to do that a lot then. At the beginning, the principal ask us to go visit homes and we'd be walking on foot all the way around in a section called Brooklyn here where we first lived, my husband and I, and going to these homes. Sometimes you could get in, sometimes you couldn't. They would see you coming and wouldn't let you in because they didn't want to talk to you. And then sometimes you would see them, you'd ask them to come out, but very seldom. There's usually a teacher's meeting, I always call PTA meeting, teachers meeting, a few parents, but they didn't do very well with that. | 13:32 |
Nell Simmons Oxner | And I know when I went out to Rama Road, this White and Black school was all mixed up. They didn't come out there too well. I had one Black who came to my class. He was in— Let see where did he work? Mr. Lewis, he works with the Equal Employment Office here in Charlotte right now. He had his little girl in my room and he was a darling parent. He'd come to talk even when it wasn't PTA. I think he's still working. I don't think he's retired and the others didn't come. | 14:09 |
Nell Simmons Oxner | So Mr. Lee, the principal said, I know what I'll do. I'll get the school bus and send— The Black children and came out of a place called Earle Village here, that section over there. I'm going to send the bus down there on PTA night and let them know ahead of time and bring them in so they can come and talk with the teachers about the children. And so he did that. And guess who came on the buses? Little teenagers wanting a ride come to town. And they'd go to the school and run up and down the hall and run outside and play and have a good time. I just hate to say that, but that's what they did. And running the room and look around and just scattered around. They didn't come. So he did that several times and he said, well, there's no need. If they're not going to come, then you know why— We don't need the children to come. They're home. We want the parents. | 14:40 |
Sonya Ramsey | Did you actually— The school actually taught in an integrated school. Did you visit the White people's homes? | 15:34 |
Nell Simmons Oxner | Yes, I have, and I've had been invited to dinner and everything. Girl, I'll tell you, Dr. Albergotti, he had a practice here in Charlotte, but I think he went with either, he's with Duke Powell or Southern Bell or something now. And his little son invited me and I went, my husband took me out there— It's so far, I can't remember where it was now. But anyway, we went out there to his house, a little boy named John Albergotti, and this mother, she said, "I'm so glad. That that's all I hear. John is always talking about you". They had seven children, a doctor and his wife, she was a nurse. He said, I met my wife in Pennsylvania when I was doing my practice, my intern work up there, and brought herself. So she was telling me, Now I don't know how to fry chicken like these southerners, Ms. Oxner. She said, but I got fried chicken for you and I got all kind of other good vegetables and stuff and you're going to have a good time. | 15:40 |
Nell Simmons Oxner | And so she had this long table there and all the little children, her little teenage children, the other ones were there waiting to welcome me and everything. And so she got the food ready, she did it herself she said, and she brought the food and put it on the table. And then I got to the table and little John was right there and he got right up under my arm, a little secretary chair. And they're so dear and loving. They get up on your feet, they get in your face, they give you their coals and cough, and when they going kiss you when they're going home right in your mouth. | 16:37 |
Nell Simmons Oxner | And it was darling, and he had his seat right by his teacher and he's sitting right by me so close. We had a good dinner and we sat and had a ball talking in the living room afterwards. And then when it was time and Dr. Albergotti said, "Now Ms. Oxner, when you're ready to go, I'll take you". And one of the little teenage boy wanted to drive, goes "I want to take Ms. Oxner home." And the doctor said, "No you don't. I got to go to the hospital over the Charlotte Memorial Hospital, so I'm going to take her." They want to get away in the car. | 17:07 |
Nell Simmons Oxner | Oh, it's the funniest thing. So then when we got in the car and Dr. Albergotti said, "You know what," said, "I was brought up near Grandin Road over there". Said "My mother taught at Central," you know where the Y is over there on Morehead Street. He said, "Well, she taught, there was a high school over there and my mother taught over there." And I went to Urban Avenue. My husband taught there a while too over there on Fifth Street. They call it Urban Avenue Open School now. | 17:35 |
Nell Simmons Oxner | Said, "Well, I used to take my bicycle and go to visit my mother on East Morehead Street and I know all about that, the streets there and where you live." And said, "I'm going to take you right home. Then I'm going back to the hospital. And said it's a pleasure and it's a joy having you." And I said, "I've enjoyed myself immensely." I said, "It was a beautiful dinner and everything was just fine." He said, "Well, she's not a great cook, but she did the best she could." | 18:05 |
Nell Simmons Oxner | And I enjoyed it. She worked in the office where my husband was at McLintok, which was a feeding school for Rama Road at that time because it was just about a mile apart. And she said she volunteered office work there and the nurse's office as part-time. But with seven children she couldn't do much. She said— | 18:29 |
Sonya Ramsey | And just going back when you taught at Myers Street, did you guys do extra things for the students? | 18:50 |
Nell Simmons Oxner | Yes. You mean like bathing them up, freshen them up and stuff? That's right. And sometimes they'd come, somebody gave them something, a dress that was too long, the mother wouldn't even hem it. And you'd have your needle and thread in you drawer and you call the little child over there by the desk and you try to hem it up so it look good. And sometimes it'd be the odor is not real good and you take one of those food cans that the food comes out of the cafeteria, the string beans and stuff. You have it clean and you have the washcloth and you take it in the bathroom and freshen it up and things like that. You'd comb the hair, and especially when it's picture time, you have to comb it and brush it, because it looked like some of the parents those days, I don't know whether they didn't have the right attitude about anything. | 18:57 |
Sonya Ramsey | Were the children there, were their parents— What social class were their parents? | 19:40 |
Nell Simmons Oxner | I guess— I don't know what you would say. Mostly— a few would be moderate. Most of them were ghetto. The parents, I don't think they had too much to look for. I guess they were people who made about— Oh, I don't know, I guess they made five or $6 a week, the mother of the father. And after they bought grocer and paid their rent, there wasn't much to look forward to. I guess they thought they would just maybe buy a little wine or beer or something and just celebrate and don't be bothered about anything. I think it was a lot of them like that. I don't know, you call them ghetto or children or what you call them, but there were a lot of them like that at that time. | 19:44 |
Sonya Ramsey | What kind of values did you try to instill in them? | 20:28 |
Nell Simmons Oxner | To do the best you can and everybody is somebody. And to like one another, and some children were so mean. It looked like some of them were just— I don't know, this snappy. I guess it's the environment at home. You have to say, just calm down and behave yourself. He was looking at me harder. I said, now he doesn't mean anything. He's not hurting you. "It says something about my mother." I said, "They don't even know your mother. You see? They haven't been to your house, they don't know your mother. Evidently he might be talking about his mother. He's not talking about your mother." You just got to go from seat to seat and try to just help them out and try to get them to think positive or something. I'll tell you, it was something else. | 20:30 |
Nell Simmons Oxner | But the little things they were loving and they would do what you said. And they tried, but then after they left you, they went right back in another kind of environment where they were on their own most time out in the street, I guess till time to go to bed and they would call them in or something like that and put them to bed. | 21:13 |
Nell Simmons Oxner | We had a lot like that, but we had a few with different values. People who came very neat and clean, smelling good and did the best they could and parents came to see those three or four that they were doing their work or would help with the homework. But not all, uh-uh, not back then. | 21:29 |
Sonya Ramsey | Did that change when you taught at integrated schools? | 21:48 |
Nell Simmons Oxner | Some bit, yeah. It was an improvement. I saw an improvement. Even though they recall, it's a kind of low income area from Earle Village, I saw a little improvement. But still they didn't come PTA. They didn't come to talk to the teachers at all. | 21:52 |
Sonya Ramsey | Going back to your social life, what kind of social things did you take part in as married couples in Charlotte? | 22:10 |
Nell Simmons Oxner | In the '50s? Only going to the movies. That's it. That was our thing, going to the movies, honey. And then we had this one social club, we met once a month and there were about 20 some of us, and we have— | 22:14 |
Sonya Ramsey | Men and women? | 22:29 |
Nell Simmons Oxner | All women. | 22:32 |
Sonya Ramsey | Oh, what was the name of that? | 22:34 |
Nell Simmons Oxner | And the men had theirs. They had their fraternities and their clubs and we had all little sorority, Phi Delta Kappa, and we had our little social clubs. | 22:34 |
Sonya Ramsey | What was the name of your social club? | 22:45 |
Nell Simmons Oxner | Le Pierettes. | 22:45 |
Sonya Ramsey | How do you spell that? | 22:45 |
Nell Simmons Oxner | It's on the back of my class leaders— We were honorary club members. We buried her Sunday. Do you see that honorary? It's on the back. | 22:53 |
Sonya Ramsey | Yes, we wanted to interview her, but we didn't get the chance. | 23:06 |
Nell Simmons Oxner | She was my class leader, my club member and church member. | 23:11 |
Sonya Ramsey | Okay. What kind of activities did the parents do? | 23:16 |
Nell Simmons Oxner | Le Pierettes, we'd have people to come and speak to us about beautification or some political thing, speaker to come and talk to us about that. Or maybe somebody come and read poem, a student from Johnson C. Smith or somebody that one of the club members know their mother or something like that. Or somebody sing a solo. Once we had somebody come and play the piano, play some music. And then sometime we just go into the business section and plan what we are going to do for our sick members. Make a little box and carry little flowers or little toilet articles to a sick member or visit a nursing home and things. We do little things like that. Take up canned goods and take it to a needy family or take something to the Crisis Ministry, clothing for the Crisis Ministry. We did that last year. We're going to do it again this year. That's on the agenda. | 23:20 |
Nell Simmons Oxner | And one of our club member's daughter, I think she still works with the Crisis Assistance Ministry here, where they give clothes and money help to the needy family, and so we're going to be getting boxes of clothes and things ready for that. | 24:16 |
Sonya Ramsey | How were you selected to become a member or how are members selected? | 24:31 |
Nell Simmons Oxner | To the club? Well, I guess through my church member. She was my church member and she was in this club, and it was organized when she was a girl, and she's 88 years old when she died and she took me in. | 24:36 |
Sonya Ramsey | What year did you join in? | 24:49 |
Nell Simmons Oxner | 1949. | 24:51 |
Sonya Ramsey | Okay. You said you also with your sorority— What kind of activities did you do? | 24:52 |
Nell Simmons Oxner | Well, we did just about the same thing. Have speakers and getting boxes and having blood in where you're trying to get people to give blood and have people to come down, try to get a set up in a mall somewhere where they can take your blood pressure, little things like that. And giving things to the little needy children, like a nursery. Maybe we'd get a box and fix some things for that little home. We did things like that. | 24:59 |
Sonya Ramsey | You said in your social club, you had political speakers come? | 25:31 |
Nell Simmons Oxner | Yes. | 25:35 |
Sonya Ramsey | Did you work with voter registration? | 25:35 |
Nell Simmons Oxner | No, I didn't, and I was always asked to go down here and work down here at, what's the name of this Baptist church right here on Trade and Fifth Street? But I didn't accept it. I was bogged down with reading. I said, I had enough to do at that particular time. I wasn't going to be— And my church activities, I guess I'm on about seven committees and so that's enough. I got so many things to do. I didn't ever. | 25:37 |
Nell Simmons Oxner | We have a representative from our church who was busy doing that, Johnnie Mae Collins. She's our representative and she attends the meetings and brings the information back to Grace AME Zion Church and tells us what to do and what's going on, what the Black caucus is doing at First Baptist. She brings the information so we are aware of what's going on. | 26:01 |
Sonya Ramsey | Did you plan other kind activities like bridge club— | 26:21 |
Nell Simmons Oxner | Yeah, we play pinochle and Court Whist and [indistinct 00:26:33] and things like that. Yeah, we do that for entertainment after we get through with our little businesses and whatever we're going to do every time. And then we have a special game we like, it's called In Between. I love it. | 26:28 |
Sonya Ramsey | What kind of game is that? | 26:44 |
Nell Simmons Oxner | It's a card game you to play in between. | 26:46 |
Sonya Ramsey | You play in between, okay. But similar to any other card game? | 26:48 |
Nell Simmons Oxner | Yes. It's something like— Any number could play. You have a large table and a lot of us, and each person gets two cards. The first card is turned down and the second one is up. And then you turn your cards up and you look at the two cards and then you ask the dealer, the dealer, one person's dealing, you'll ask that dealer to hit you for a card. You are hoping that you will get a card that will go in between the two cards you have. And if it does not go in between, then you have to fold your cards up and lay it on the table. See? All right, because it doesn't work. If it works, then— But first, before you tell the dealer to send you the card, you have to say "Hit me" for a certain amount. You only play for pennies just like you play pinochle for pennies. | 26:54 |
Nell Simmons Oxner | You say two cents or three cents, because before the game starts, everybody ante up about two, three cents and make a little pot. The little pot is right there in the middle. Then when you said "Hit me," start with the first person on the dealer's left. And you said, I think I can get a card that would go in there and so I'm going to say three cent or five cent out that pot, and you say that. If it goes in there, you get five cent out the pot. If it doesn't, you put five cent in the pot. See? And then she goes to the next person and then some of them said, I don't have anything. I have to fold up. So they fold up. They can't get anything between, you might have two kings or a king and a queen or something. Nothing's going to fit in between. | 27:47 |
Nell Simmons Oxner | And then sometime you have a big spread, like an ace and a deuce or something like that. And then you say, "Ooh, I got a good chance here." But sometime it might not be a good chance because you might get another ace, see it doesn't go in between. Or you might get another deuce. But you think you have. And then sometimes you said, I bet the pot, and then you're already in trouble because if you get a three or an ace, then you out of luck. Then you have to count every penny in there and you have to put that amount right back in that pot, whatever's in there. It's a good game. I like it. Yeah, it's fun. | 28:33 |
Sonya Ramsey | Did you play that throughout in the '50s and the '60s or are [indistinct 00:29:08]? | 29:03 |
Nell Simmons Oxner | Yes. Oh, we've been playing that for a long time. We played Court Whist with and yeah, and Pokeno and all those different games. We love card games. Pinochle. | 29:08 |
Sonya Ramsey | I didn't get to ask, did you have any children? | 29:22 |
Nell Simmons Oxner | No, we don't have any children. I'm just fortunate enough to have a lot of nieces and nephews that we looked after and helped out all through the years, financially and every other way. I just got her brother out of University of Chicago in June. No, in May, he has a doctorate and got a job in New Jersey teaching at some university there. | 29:24 |
Nell Simmons Oxner | So in a way, they think that we are rich. I said we couldn't be, because when we give all my sisters and brothers and their children, we don't have as much as your parents. They can't understand that. Youngsters don't understand that because we've been contributing to their education and their wellbeing and whatever is happening to them all through the years, you see. | 29:48 |
Sonya Ramsey | Was that a conscious decision not to have children? | 30:11 |
Nell Simmons Oxner | No, it just didn't happen, and we didn't try to make it happen. I said, got enough nieces and nephew, that's enough. So we didn't, no children. | 30:15 |
Sonya Ramsey | Did you have any role models during your life that you especially looked up to? | 30:24 |
Nell Simmons Oxner | No. Nothing but my mother. Only my mother, my darling mother. | 30:33 |
Sonya Ramsey | Any special teachers or anything? | 30:41 |
Nell Simmons Oxner | As a role model? No, I didn't. I just— | 30:42 |
Sonya Ramsey | Also, you're so active in your church. Do you participate in the conventions and things like that? | 30:44 |
Nell Simmons Oxner | Well, I have to. My husband does that part of it. I tell you what I do. Whenever a member is deceased, I have to get the flower to that funeral home. Then if it's a person who's related to the person in the church, is related to a church member, a close relative, I have to make a voucher for a check to go to that person. I see to that. Then I was on the flower committee to see the flower gets in the church at a certain time. | 30:54 |
Nell Simmons Oxner | Then I'm on the greeting committee where once a month, I have to get up and greet the birthday people, people who have birthdays in certain months. And then I'm the chairperson of the program committee. I have to get a program. We have one this coming Sunday. I have a program already fixed up for Sunday. And just here and there and I said, I got enough stuff to be doing and I'm not going get involved in anything else, I think. I have a lot to do. | 31:27 |
Sonya Ramsey | I think I have— | 31:56 |
Nell Simmons Oxner | And this is my program I'm working on. I don't know if I have much changes right now. I got to— let's see. I've been working on it deadly. I've got my speaker. | 31:59 |
Sonya Ramsey | Be careful. | 32:10 |
Nell Simmons Oxner | Yes, I see. I don't know whether I have to go over it again and refine it or what, but I was— Because I got to have it ready. The pastor's going to run it off tomorrow when I get it. And this is to give you volume. It's just on the first page, but this will give you volume. That's after church Sunday. | 32:20 |
Sonya Ramsey | When you came to Charlotte, did you continue with your music and things like that? | 32:38 |
Nell Simmons Oxner | I went a little while to Ms. Oliver, a music teacher here in Charlotte. But then I put that down, I stopped. I said, no, I won't bother with it anymore. | 32:43 |
Sonya Ramsey | Why did you stop? | 32:52 |
Nell Simmons Oxner | I just got lazy. I said I'm not going to bother with music anymore. But I sang in the choir. We had a chancel choir there and I sang a while, and it disbanded and I never joined the regular choir. But we did have one at Grace long ago called the Chancel Choir many years ago and I used to sing in it, but I don't sing anymore. | 32:53 |
Sonya Ramsey | Okay. If anything else you'd like to add or you think we've left something out? | 33:15 |
Nell Simmons Oxner | No, no. I don't think I was very helpful to you because I didn't have any— | 33:21 |
Sonya Ramsey | You were very, very helpful. Very helpful. Okay, after— | 33:27 |
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