Estelle Graham interview recording, 1993 June 17
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| Sonya Ramsey | Where you grew up? | 0:01 |
| Estelle Graham | Let's see. The neighborhood was between South Tryon Street, Ban Street, College Street and East Hill Street. And it was between the Dilworth area, and across Tryon Street was the Third Ward area. | 0:06 |
| Sonya Ramsey | That's what it was called? The Third Ward? | 0:32 |
| Estelle Graham | No, it wasn't. We were in between those areas. We were between Third Ward, Dilworth and— Well, it was a few blocks away from Brooklyn area, which would've been on two or three blocks down on Ban Street. So we were in a section that where we were not directly in either of the districts where we were. | 0:34 |
| Sonya Ramsey | Okay. Was your little area segregated? | 1:00 |
| Estelle Graham | Well, it was a segregated area. And when I said segregated, it was a White area. The home that we were in was surrounded by the streets that I just said and we were in a White area. | 1:03 |
| Sonya Ramsey | Okay. As a child, did you play with White children? | 1:18 |
| Estelle Graham | Yes, we did. | 1:21 |
| Sonya Ramsey | What was that experience? | 1:23 |
| Estelle Graham | It was very nice. Very nice experience because at the time that we were in the neighborhood, the family that my mother worked for, the other servants were caretakers of the children. And on the Thursdays and the Sundays or whatever, mostly on Thursdays, the day off, they would come into our area as they call it, Alice Children's area and Maze and all. We would have just fun, picnics and everything. | 1:24 |
| Sonya Ramsey | What kind of things did you do? | 2:02 |
| Estelle Graham | Well, we played ball, softball. And this little thing that we did, we played— I need her to help me with this. We had the ball teams, we played tennis, we had the little miniature, little golf things in the yard that we did. We had a little tennis nets. We played just about anything. We played marbles, of course. I played. That was interesting. And volleyball. Just the games that were popular at the time, were the ones that we played. | 2:05 |
| Estelle Graham | And we were introduced a good little bit of little, offhand I can't say, a interesting game, tag. And right now off the bat, I can't mention some of the games. They were games that you played just about every day. Mostly summer times. The volleyball and the tag and the— what you call that thing? That little thing where they throw that ball up? What you call that honey? [indistinct 00:03:14] Excuse me, I'm sorry, but I can't think. We played— | 2:42 |
| Sonya Ramsey | It's okay. I can't either. | 3:17 |
| Estelle Graham | That's why I wish she was here for some of the older games. And it was interesting how you throw the little things, throw the ball up and catch the ball. It'll come to be what it was. [indistinct 00:03:28]. | 3:18 |
| Sonya Ramsey | Okay. All right. | 3:26 |
| Estelle Graham | That was a fun thing that we did. | 3:30 |
| Sonya Ramsey | Were they many other Black children in your neighborhood also? | 3:34 |
| Estelle Graham | Now, there was not children, but mostly at the time that we were there. I was born 1921 in Charlotte, North Carolina. And the home was there when I was born. There were three older— I have a deceased sister that was older, two brothers, older. We were there in the neighborhood with the older servants that lived in the homes. Each home on College Street had a live in servant. And most of them were people that didn't really have that much of a family. My mother and father were what they called the adopted family. Most of the people catered to my mother and father. And when I really think about it now, is because of the marriage status. | 3:36 |
| Estelle Graham | I remember a family that lived near the railroad, Mrs. and Mr. Springs, she helped at the Moorehead family. And the reason why I'm saying that, that's the reason that we were in that area because of those people. And Mr. Fred Springs was the yard person. Mrs. Springs would sit in with the children at times and whatever. My mother's friendship was most around her church people and the neighborhood servants. I'm trying to think right now offhand, I can't think of too many people offhand. Mrs. [indistinct 00:05:09] with her two children, Berdel, and just her daughter's name was— Well, I'm trying to say the servants' children were our family too. And the servants were— They adopted like family in with my mother and father. | 4:32 |
| Sonya Ramsey | Did both your mother and father work for the same house? | 5:27 |
| Estelle Graham | Family people. The Moorehead family of John Motley Moorehead senior. He would be. | 5:29 |
| Sonya Ramsey | Famous family. | 5:38 |
| Estelle Graham | They were very, very nice people. They gave us the security to— And even with my mother and father, they were church people. I have to give them credit for that. I can't give them credit, but I give my mother and father credit where they were people that taught us to be individuals, to be people. We never had to go through this Black and White issue. | 5:38 |
| Sonya Ramsey | With Moorehead family? | 6:08 |
| Estelle Graham | With the neighborhood. | 6:11 |
| Sonya Ramsey | The neighborhood? Okay. | 6:11 |
| Estelle Graham | And actually with that family. But it was a security that you had that you just went on and do what you had to do. You go to the stores, we went to school. Then the weekends is when we would have the gatherings. Now, they went to separate school and two or three separate things that, years ago I remember going to a park with my mother and some of the children and we were accepted, it was nothing. We ate hotdogs and things. But at the time that everything was segregated, I can't think offhand of anything that even the stores, the drug stores. | 6:13 |
| Sonya Ramsey | Do you think that's because your family worked for the Moorehead family? | 6:50 |
| Estelle Graham | You know what, I really, honestly, from my heart, I think it was because of my mother and father's character. I think I will not allow myself to give the Moorehead family, because I'd have to give it to my mother and my father. Their character. | 6:51 |
| Sonya Ramsey | What type of characters did they have? | 7:08 |
| Estelle Graham | There were just outgoing, hardworking, church going people. And my father, Clay Mans, his day off was Saturday. He would dress, he would go down Tryon Street. He would go on Tray Street to the arcade at the time, to get his hair cut, get his clothes out the cleaners from the little cleaning area on Trade Street, at the time what they called the arcade. He would have his suits altered at the little— There was a barbershop, beauty parlor, a cafe and this [indistinct 00:07:55], Lord I can't call his name. Mr. Dave Moore would do his alteration. | 7:10 |
| Sonya Ramsey | Were they Black— | 8:00 |
| Estelle Graham | And that was businesses. Uh—huh, Black owned businesses in this little arcade off of Trade Street. And I remember that so well. And I think that was a doctor there, a dentist upstairs in the arcade, right on Trade Street. And it almost seemed like to me that building stayed there until they did the thing. | 8:00 |
| Estelle Graham | And that was his— But he would get on his dress and my mother did not allow us to say Sunday clothes. She didn't think that made sense because of the term. Sometimes you go to the store, whatever, you'd be well dressed and this or that. Neat clean, I've said. You look mighty nice, you got on some of your Sunday clothes. She refused us to live under those conditions. You wear, you look nice and present yourself presentable. But to sometimes be at [indistinct 00:08:55] having on Sunday clothes, she would tell us to just go on about our business. Always be neat and be clean. | 8:20 |
| Sonya Ramsey | Be clean everyday— | 9:02 |
| Estelle Graham | And if you were refer to it as Sunday clothes, speak up and just don't say this if not— And that they allowed us and they never let us be withdrawn because they knew more than we knew about things might would happen and things that would be said. But we were overcomers, I'm going to tell you the truth, I cannot think of any incident where I can honestly say coming up in that neighborhood from '21 born in 1921, I married in that neighborhood. Let's see, how old was I when I'm married? Got to think. 20. | 9:02 |
| Estelle Graham | The same little area house is where, after I married, I think I was 23 years old. My son was there and my nephew and another nephew were brought up right in the same little house. From there, we moved there to Liberty Street and from Liberty Street to [indistinct 00:10:05] Street, which they were predominantly Black. And then eventually here. But my mother and father— I mean my mother got to live here, but my daddy died in January. He didn't make it in the little family home. | 9:44 |
| Sonya Ramsey | I wanted to echo back and ask you about, did you work with your parents? | 10:21 |
| Estelle Graham | No. No. I was more or less at home. In school. That was the utmost in their hard work and is what they would always say. We're working for you to go to school and do better. They didn't pursue us to be servants. They didn't say not to, but they didn't push you to do it. We were pushed to school. To go to school. | 10:27 |
| Sonya Ramsey | How did your parents manage childcare while they were— | 10:54 |
| Estelle Graham | Well, the thing about it, it was the way the family, the age group, because my oldest sister, she died in January last year, 81. In her death, she lived in Jacksonville. It was like the oldest one responsible for the other. And then another thing, excuse me, the times that when my mother went to work, the younger ones at home went to work with her. So I got to get that straight. Nobody was not like without home care. And the ones that were old enough to be at home, they were at home. I had a brother, when he finished high school, he went to Smith just for one year and he went to DC. | 10:58 |
| Estelle Graham | The oldest brother died at 26. My sister, when she finished high school, she went to Monroe Winchester High School. After she finished high school, she went Winston—Salem College, excuse me. She had four years of college. And incidentally, the year that she died, she had put 50 years of teaching in Jacksonville, Florida. That's the nieces. I'll be going home with her when she come through here. She and I, my baby sister went to Smith one year and I had a brother. Each one of us had a chance. We finished high school and went into college. We went to, the two of us, we went to Barber Scotia for two years at [indistinct 00:12:30]. And that was a break there, because my sister that had been taking care of us and helping with the two years of Barber Scotia, she married, went to Seattle, Washington with her soldier husband. | 11:45 |
| Estelle Graham | And then when she came back to Charlotte visiting, she let us know that Jacksonville, Florida be her home, [indistinct 00:12:52]. So she went to Jacksonville, Florida. Then I had another sister that went to New York when she finished high school. Seeing that they migrated. The older they got, they just wanted— This is where they were able and wanted to be on their own. There was no restriction where they couldn't venture out. And believe it or not, I was the home person. I just loved home. I was the home person. When I married, I stayed married. My husband was accepted into the family, into the home. I only have one child and I was the home person. And even though mama and daddy got [indistinct 00:13:30], I was not working. The type work I did, it was so surprisingly to most people. | 12:43 |
| Estelle Graham | But when I finished high school, I wanted to be a home economics teacher. I didn't pursue that. When I went to Barber Scotia College, that was what I wanted so bad. I just loved cooking and whatever. I worked in the cafeteria as scholarship work. And I was just so into food. My two years at Barber Scotia, I was accepted at AMT and it's so strange what I did. I chose not to accept that because financial reasons, I knew it was time for me to have a job. So I went to the S&W Cafeteria downtown on Trade Street. Incidentally, this is most interesting. When I went to S&W Cafeteria to work, it was a Baptist convention in Charlotte, North Carolina segregation time. And the store was not open at the time to the two races. | 13:38 |
| Estelle Graham | And I'm sure it had to be a boldness in me. And incidentally, the ad was in the paper and it just seemed to me that I wanted to do something worthwhile. I went up to be interviewed and I didn't let anybody know I was going. I just wanted to pursue this. Even the sign of people talking about, it wasn't enough room in Charlotte for all these people coming in the Baptist convention. And I went to the S&W, I was interviewed and I sat there knowing that it was an integrated place as well as other places. | 14:48 |
| Estelle Graham | But that was one determination I had. And not to— They hired Black people. But what I'm saying, [indistinct 00:15:38] and I said this is a shame. A lot of people say, "It's a shame you can't go to the S&W eat." They'd be open on Sundays and this and that on Thursday or whatever, and you couldn't go to eat. I often think about, I was going in there to work, but I still wanted to just understand why. And I was willing to ask some questions, work with a beautiful group of people. The Cheryls, Mr. Cheryl and his son and his brother were the nicest people I ever met in my life. I was very open. | 15:31 |
| Sonya Ramsey | Did you ask them why or did you ever? | 16:15 |
| Estelle Graham | I was very open on the job. Now I'm going to show you how this came about. I was so open on the job that my managers and the people that I worked with, were people that they didn't say to me, but I learned later that I was a little outspoken. Well, it wasn't that I was just rudely outspoken, but I never did hold back. With the convention coming, the Baptist convention coming, the paper statement. So many preachers will being Charlotte and that they don't know where I'm going to be. So I'm not going to take it on myself in case something else would come up. But it seemed to me some kind of way, I was interviewed for the job. The opening that I would've had. I wanted to work in the salads. I always liked salads. They didn't have any opening for the salad. | 16:17 |
| Estelle Graham | It was a lady that worked there. She lives over here now. She was in the salad department when I worked there. I hadn't had any experience in salads, but I was willing to learn the salad and all, because when I would go and see salad, I would just go crazy. So getting back to what I'm saying. S&W opened the cafeteria for the preachers the first year or the few months or whatever. They needed help now. They needed help. And I really liked the company when I realized how open they were to [indistinct 00:17:57] and people and whatever. But when they called me to work, they needed me because they had opened up, they had agreed to let the people come in. It seemed like they were about the first place that opened up downtown. It looked like Crest did it after S&W. I may be wrong there and I— | 17:20 |
| Sonya Ramsey | You mean opened up to Black? | 18:17 |
| Estelle Graham | Mm—hmm. | 18:17 |
| Sonya Ramsey | Oh, okay. | 18:17 |
| Estelle Graham | It was during the year when all everything, all the confusions and things. And it was an incident where it was a lot of things went on downtown during the segregation and during the Martha King situation. I should have that date in my head. And by me talking these things coming to me. Do you know that's when I went to the cafeteria, the S&W Cafeteria. I went there as a salad person and I worked up to the head salad person. From downtown, Charlottetown Mall and Park Road. But that was a work I liked. I loved the people and there were people similar to the people that my mother worked for. They were just good, decent people. The Cheryl family. | 18:20 |
| Sonya Ramsey | Okay. I wanted to go back and ask you— | 19:09 |
| Estelle Graham | I hope you got that. Meaning, instead I felt more comfortable into what I did even through the years I retired from the company than to go back into the college area. Because I could see a strain financially. That's why I didn't want to pursue the other two years because my dad had taken ill, incidentally that's when I stayed at home with my father instead of going back to school because my sister was not that. | 19:11 |
| Sonya Ramsey | Okay, I'm going to go back and— | 19:39 |
| Estelle Graham | Bless your little heart. Excuse me. | 19:39 |
| Sonya Ramsey | Did you have any remembrances of your grandparents? | 19:41 |
| Estelle Graham | Now, the most interesting thing about the grandparents, which would be my father's people, I never knew my mother's mother. Neither her father. Never got to meet them. It was something that she would always mention about. My father, when we were in our little surroundings, where I say we live, went to Reidsville, North Carolina, it was like someone called and said he needed to come and see about his mother and father. | 19:44 |
| Estelle Graham | He went down to see about them. And for me to call the name of the place, it was in either Reidsville or Danville or Leaksville, in that little area. He went down to see about his parents, his mother and his father. And it seemed that someone said that you need to look after your father, quote unquote, because you're better able to do look after them. Which was all right with him. It was no problem. So he went down. And I understand that my grandmother and my grandfather were up in age. | 20:24 |
| Estelle Graham | I remember them coming to Charlotte for a while. But they were in a little servitude home. For years he worked for the family people that looked after them and took care of them. And they came back to Charlotte. The strangest thing that my daddy never wanted to talk about, that was their little home. But for some reason, when my daddy being a humble man as he was, when he went back with the help of the people, they said, "Well, you should go back to see and see about things." | 20:57 |
| Estelle Graham | He couldn't get anything together that was worthwhile as far as their home or who belonged to who. But it seemed like another generation of people came in over their [indistinct 00:21:47]. But for me to really tell you, I never heard my daddy speak anything of being in a slave living. There were a lot of sisters and a lot of brothers. Now, I met two of his sisters and two of his brother and the family root, which would be the man family's root. Most of those people in Philadelphia. | 21:33 |
| Sonya Ramsey | They got [indistinct 00:22:13]? | 22:11 |
| Estelle Graham | Uh—huh. His brothers, he had two sisters, Mary and Martha, and I think five brothers. But they were not close. | 22:13 |
| Sonya Ramsey | So did you ever see your father's— | 22:23 |
| Estelle Graham | Yeah, they came to stay with us. They were very quiet people. My grandmother, she was a pretty lady. She looked a lot like my mother. She was very quiet. My granddad was a picture of my dad. They were very quiet people. They didn't talk much. | 22:28 |
| Sonya Ramsey | Did they ever play with— did you ever— | 22:46 |
| Estelle Graham | No, we would talk with them. Sometimes it was, not too long ago. Let's see, my grandmother's name was Julia Ann. Grandfather's name was Clay. My dad, I believe was name after my granddad. But they were people that would not— we were chilled to not bother grandmother, granddad, I can picture the two of them sitting on the porch in rocking chair. I can picture speaking to them, but I don't remember ever being able to talk. But they were very uncomfortable. And I think about them sometime. I wished it had been where you could talk to them, but they were withdrawn. Both of them. | 22:47 |
| Sonya Ramsey | They never talked about— Did they live during slavery [indistinct 00:23:36]? | 23:34 |
| Estelle Graham | Yeah. | 23:37 |
| Sonya Ramsey | They never talked? | 23:38 |
| Estelle Graham | They never talked about anything. My granddaddy, one day got off the porch and walked down on [indistinct 00:23:47] Street at the time, and nobody knew granddaddy. But when he got to this store, on [indistinct 00:23:57] Street and incidentally that was a very nice name. His name was Mr. Black. Black's Grocery Store. And he was a White man, of course, in the neighborhood with the grocery store. He knew when Granddaddy walked down the street, went in the store, he knew that that was Clay's father. So he called Daddy and let him know that granddaddy was down there. | 23:39 |
| Estelle Graham | But that is when granddaddy seemed to, with his conversation with Mr. Black, he opened up a whole lot of things, talking, [indistinct 00:24:29]. He was sitting with a cold cola, talking to Mr. Black about things that he didn't— It was so sad to me that they were not open people. They were not open. And we were taught to not bother them. Both of them died in the little home there, where they were ill, died of old age. After grandmother died, Granddaddy didn't live— I bet two. It's hard for me to say because I was in high school. He didn't live long because the night he died he kept calling her and said, "Julie Ann, I'm coming where you are." I was preteen then. | 24:21 |
| Sonya Ramsey | Did your parents ever explain to you why they were so quiet? | 25:09 |
| Estelle Graham | They seemed to my dad, and you know what? Do you know through high school and all, my father probably, if he went to school much, my father never was— He came from Reidsville, North Carolina by being a courteous person on the street coming down the street, this little hotel. It seemed that one of the Mooreheads at that time, being a traveling person, coming through on the way home, daddy coming down the street. He had two luggage, fumbling had two baggage. Daddy as a young man, maybe 19, reached down and probably asked, "Could I help you?" Whatever. He wasn't afraid to ask. He often told us a lot, Mr. John Moorehead did, I think the people. He thought that was so nice. He said, "I come through here every summer and where do you work?" It seemed to me that daddy really didn't have a job. | 25:14 |
| Estelle Graham | Maybe so, maybe not. I can't think. And my dad didn't talk much either. Believe it or not, he was a very reserved, and my mother too. They just never did too much talking. And it seemed that Mr. Moorehead knew the man the hotel where he was staying and all. And this nice man that helped him with his luggage, naturally put [indistinct 00:26:41] whatever. He asked daddy what kind of work did he do or something, he suggested to the man. So since he was nice enough to pick up my luggage, to just help me out by walking, you were distant to people. But his manner, he said he would be nice to work in a hotel. Now this is what it was told to us. Daddy would tell things and how he got that job working, being recommended, worked there. Mr. Moorehead would come through. | 26:17 |
| Estelle Graham | Mr. Moorehead said to him one time, he said, "Clay, I'm think about being married, but if I get married I would like for you to work for me." That's how they met by him helping him with the luggage. And it happened, I think mama was— They were married then. And seem to me daddy said to him, he said, "Clay, how you doing?" He said, "Are you ready?" He said, "No, because I got one child and I'm married man, and I have a child and we expecting another one." And he said, "Well don't worry about it." He said, "I'll look out for you." And that's when he built the little home there. It was a friendship between two human beings. And I just don't like anybody to say it but, well naturally he was White and daddy was Black. | 27:10 |
| Estelle Graham | But there were two human beings that needed each other. He could have come back and got the luggage, the way I understood it. But my daddy helping with the luggage. And they just from the years, when my daddy died, he never referred to him as their servant, as the friend. When the name was in the paper, the obituary, a friend. And I always thought of that. And when he said it, the [indistinct 00:28:19] that we always considered Ella and Clay as our friends. And that's the way it was. The children were not prohibited from playing with us. There were times that cousins or whatever would have things clothes that we could use. And my mother was not too proud to not accept things. We were able to go downtown, which through my mom and daddy to get things that we had to be quiet about this and quiet about that. | 27:54 |
| Estelle Graham | And then what we got [indistinct 00:28:51]. Mrs. Moorehead had already called in to let them have what they want. Go in, sit down, quiet, choose what fitted your feet with your clothing and then whoever waited on you, they knew what to do. And then you come out with your little bags and all quiet. | 28:49 |
| Sonya Ramsey | They would— | 29:12 |
| Estelle Graham | [indistinct 00:29:14]. Just had the bill for the children. Dad and my mother were very happy people. They were very happy people. And this home right here was built through— They were in three wheels. This home that they built in this— Let's see, '69, no I'm wrong, honey. '59, because daddy died in December. We would come out here and look at it. He would say, my husband was living there. He'd say, "Y'all can have it. I don't want it. I don't like way out there." But he was up in there. | 29:16 |
| Estelle Graham | Daddy was 80 something, my momma was 90 something when she died too. She died here. They had money in trust funds. They went three Moorehead wheels, the old John Motley and the John Junior. And they worked for what they had and they were very proud church going people, I tell you they were church people and they contributed a lot of input into the old Simpson Gillespie Church. | 29:53 |
| Estelle Graham | Now, the new church that's down here on [indistinct 00:30:25] right off of [indistinct 00:30:26] Road and coming up, I remember things that they would do for the church to raise money to move from Graham Street to build a church in the new church. We've had three locations from the old Simpson Gillespie. And this third one, it was built— The new church finally through the years, the generations of families that are there now, we were all brought up and their children into the church. | 30:21 |
| Estelle Graham | And we often, you think about how many years it took for those servants. The history of that church is beautiful to just instill to each generation. Build a church, build a church, and the little church down on [indistinct 00:31:10], the back of the church is to the street, but that's the family home church. And they are in the history of the church. My mother and father. As well as other family people that just known very well in Charlotte, the Strive family, the Brown family and the Fullsons and the Mans and the little history. And they were just church, church, church. We were church— I'm going to say home first, church and school. | 30:56 |
| Sonya Ramsey | What values did your parents try to instill in you and your brothers and sisters? | 31:42 |
| Estelle Graham | I'm going to tell you the first thing, you had to respect each other at home. You didn't wear— You can't say, if my socks yellow, that's my socks. You couldn't say that's my pencil. You had to share. You shared. And it was just a situation where you had to really go to church. They push you to school, they push you manner, they push you character and push you things that you were supposed to know. And that, I know had a lot to do with going and going to school and knowing these values. And it's the same thing that I don't like to say what's needed now, because it's hard for me to even say what's needed. | 31:47 |
| Estelle Graham | And it's not selfish for me to know what I have. But I do know that to be a child of two proud, hardworking Christian people, I write today, I don't know of anything evil that my mother and father ever did. They had just all, just friends, friends, friends. And I really thank and I thank God about them being the type of people they were. The values that they taught. You have to be nice to people for people to be nice to you. You have to respect people. | 32:33 |
| Sonya Ramsey | What did your— Oh, I'm sorry. | 33:07 |
| Estelle Graham | You have to respect people and you have to treat people the way you would like to be treated. You cannot allow yourself to be a certain way and then people are catered to you because of your personality. | 33:09 |
| Sonya Ramsey | I'm sorry, what did your parents teach you or tell you about White people? | 33:24 |
| Estelle Graham | That was never a conversation. It was never like White, Black. It was like people, the only thing being a young lady I know my mother took me aside to say to me, she said, "Now, I want you to be careful." Because I'm happy they let us date early too. And I think that was so when I think about it today I have another friend and I tell that I think I started dating at 15. Home company, coming to the home. And she would often say, "So you know you have to be careful? You're a young lady and you are dating." With the company that I had, which was a high school friend, football player through the years, he went into the army and I went into school. But what I'm saying, I had a steady date and most of my neighbors knew my date. Most of the little stores where we would go in, the little drugs store, knew it was in age when I was younger in my preteen. | 33:29 |
| Estelle Graham | The only thing I didn't like about in the neighborhood, if you go certain places or to be referred is Ella and Clay's daughter. And I would speak up, I said my name is Estelle. You go to the drug store and you go in for sodas or whatever, naturally you get what you wanted came out. And then before you could get out they'll say— Oh no, here's what it would refer to, some people I would say. They're the Moorehead servants' daughter. That's the only thing that bothered me. And I would say, I'm Estelle, I'm Clay's and Ella's daughter. To me, you don't need to use the servants to it. They're servants. I just didn't like that. I just didn't like anybody to refer to me as the Moorehead servants' daughter. | 34:30 |
| Estelle Graham | That's the only prejudice that bothered me, because I wanted to be, and I knew I was my mother and father's child, but I didn't see where the Moorehead servants had to be in it to characterize me as an individual, as young as I was. And I just didn't like that. That would bother me, and mama sometimes would say, "Well Estelle, I don't see." I say, [indistinct 00:35:46] I don't see." She said, "Well, just don't you let it bother you, you just go on." My dad always told us to speak up if anything is said wrong. I have to say other than that, that's the only thing that would bother me. And it was not in a rude way, it was just like an introduction. | 35:25 |
| Sonya Ramsey | You wanted to have your own identity? | 36:10 |
| Estelle Graham | I just wanted to be me and my mother's and father's child. But to be say so and so and so, hi Ella and Clay, so and so, they fine. | 36:10 |
| Estelle Graham | Hi, your daddy, your mother. And then maybe somebody in the [indistinct 00:36:26] who is she or who they or whatever? It'd be two or three, you didn't go too many places, say, "Oh, well I thought that's Moorehead servants' daughter, Ella and Clay's daughter." Things like that. Another thing I must admit, one Sunday I was playing and I fell, on a Sunday. | 36:22 |
| Sonya Ramsey | How old did you— | 36:51 |
| Estelle Graham | I was nine years old. The Nall Clinic today, the Dr. [indistinct 00:37:00] Nall Clinic. Dr. Nall lived the block up from where we lived. | 36:52 |
| Sonya Ramsey | Dr. Nall? | 37:04 |
| Estelle Graham | Nall. On College Street. But the back of the house was [indistinct 00:37:14] went up the back way. He lived opposite the Moorehead family. My shoulder was hurting, daddy called Dr. Nall and told Dr. Nall and said, "Estelle's hurt herself and hurt her shoulder. And I'm going to bring her up there for you to look at her." | 37:10 |
| Estelle Graham | And that was fine because we would go to— It was on a Sunday. Went up to Dr. Nall at the Good Samaritan Hospital was over there. | 37:35 |
| Sonya Ramsey | The what hospital? | 37:45 |
| Estelle Graham | Good Samaritan Hospital was right there. Went up to Dr. Nall. Dad and Dr. Nall talked. | 37:46 |
| Sonya Ramsey | Dr. Nall Black or White? | 37:55 |
| Estelle Graham | White. The Nall is a clinic. Is the clinic today, [indistinct 00:38:01] Nall clinic. And I sat there and he said, "Now Estelle, I'm going to tell you, I'm going to have to set your shoulder." Daddy was with me, Dr Nall, and I'm sitting there and he put my arm in a cast on his back porch, on the back porch on the Sunday screening nice back porch. And I often wonder about that. And now, although he set my arm on his porch that Sunday, my dad would have to take me to the clinic and it was on Poplar Street, I believe. | 37:56 |
| Estelle Graham | And we go and we had to wait our turn, of course, to get the place looked after, whatever. The times that there were things that were segregated, you were still serviced. You see what I'm saying? But that Sunday setting, that Sunday on his back porch, when time came for me to go down to the office, the main building, it was on Poplar Street and it was the Nall clinic, but it was big like it is. When my time was coming and all the other patients were waited on, of course, he would have his office for other customers and naturally it was segregated. Most buildings were. But I know I got that service when I needed to go there. | 38:43 |
| Sonya Ramsey | Did other patients ever say anything? | 39:32 |
| Estelle Graham | It was just like [indistinct 00:39:37] the office would be open on a Thursday for people that were off. I think about Charlotte when it come to those medical things, even dentists and things, they would just have certain days for the other other race of people. | 39:35 |
| Sonya Ramsey | Okay. So they usually had a day? | 39:54 |
| Estelle Graham | But seemed to me that the day that I would go was on a Thursday, at Nall clinic. | 39:57 |
| Sonya Ramsey | Did he have other Black patients too? | 40:01 |
| Estelle Graham | They had help there. Black help, there's no place where he didn't have the help, the maintenance help. And I'm sure he did have other patients. And even going to Good Samaritan at the time, they were most of the doctors would have to help at Good Samaritan Hospital for a lot of things. And he probably at that time worked at Good Samaritan. | 40:04 |
| Sonya Ramsey | I wanted to go back and ask you questions about your elementary school. Do you have any special remembrances of elementary? | 40:28 |
| Estelle Graham | Lovely. This is a situation that's so hard to explain and sometimes when I think about it, it's hard to think. And I think I mentioned before, where we lived, we were not Dilworth. We were not third Ward, we were Brooklyn. And Brooklyn was a long ways from where we lived. Plus we ended up at the time into elementary school. We went— I'm trying to think. I don't think I got into— It seems that my street, elementary school, at the time that I started school was torn down. And it's bad for me to not know that history. That's not sticking with me. My years that I went to school, we went Morgan Street School, way in Cherry way out of the community. | 40:35 |
| Sonya Ramsey | How did you get there? | 41:37 |
| Estelle Graham | Okay. We got there from the Moorehead chauffer. They would take us to school. That this is very embarrassing and it's things that I block out. When we would go to school, to Morgan Street, the big car, the two of us getting out of the car, because I was held back a year because my birthday was close to hers, it was a year and six months. So I stayed out there, I was seven and she was six. We would go way to Cherry in the big old car. They would take us over there and we went there. And during that time, it was a time when people knew it was a shame that you had to go out of your community to school. | 41:38 |
| Estelle Graham | Now remember that was Dilworth, just like DHL school, right where the [indistinct 00:42:27] is today. That was like three blocks from where we lived. Dilworth school was in that area. Few blocks from where we lived. My street was torn down. I'm trying to think how other school areas took care of the traffic. But you had to go in your district. We went to Morgan Street for a few years or so. | 42:21 |
| Sonya Ramsey | Did the kids ever tease you? | 42:53 |
| Estelle Graham | With the car, because we got so— It was so embarrassing with the big old car, they call it the hearse car. Our schoolmate. At the time that we were migrating so far from where we lived, there was a swaying bridge going over there where some children drowned. | 42:54 |
| Sonya Ramsey | About what time, was that in 1930s? 1940s? | 43:14 |
| Estelle Graham | It had to be like— | 43:18 |
| Sonya Ramsey | 1930s? | 43:20 |
| Estelle Graham | Yeah, because I finished school in '42. In the early thirties, I should say the early thirties. It's bad to not have this damage, anybody can look over this and straighten it out. And then another time my mother was working and we hadn't started going to school. We hadn't gotten out of the house going to school. And she came home. She was so hurt and just exhausted. Somebody told her that a boy and a girl had gotten hit by the train and one of the ladies near the railroad track said a boy and a girl. Well, that would've been— Excuse me. My baby sister [indistinct 00:44:06], because we were all going to school and it was just like the commotion in the neighborhood. It was like it was one of us. | 43:21 |
| Estelle Graham | But she was so hurt, even though she realized it wasn't us. I know the girl's brother that got killed by the train, finished high school with us too. We went to high school together. I mean, into the years. And it was so hurting. It was such a hurt. That's when they start getting together and knew it wasn't fair. It wasn't legitimately. Everything was wrong about migrating and going so far to school. And do you believe it wasn't too long that Dr. Wyche, Ellis Wyche, wife donated the property in Third Ward? | 44:15 |
| Estelle Graham | Isabella Wyche Elementary School was built from the donation, the land being donated by Mrs. Wyche. But at the meantime, after these two incidents going and migrating so far— | 44:58 |
| Sonya Ramsey | The flood and— | 45:16 |
| Estelle Graham | And all of that. But the bridge broke. That's how those children— Reverend Heritage, the church on Mint Street, and his wife, they had a little private school there. What in the name were those— That church? | 45:17 |
| Sonya Ramsey | Was it a Presbyterian? | 45:36 |
| Estelle Graham | No, I can't think. Because he would go and minister to the people at the Good Samaritan Hospital. Reverend Heritage. The church was on the corner of Mint and in Hill Street. It was a nice church. I'm trying to think. They could have been [indistinct 00:45:59]. I'm ashamed of myself to not have this history down. My son will have a fit that I can't remember. After that, in the process of Isabella Wyche being built, we went to that little private school building. They didn't use it anymore. And Reverend Heritage and Mrs. Heritage, she was a teacher too. She taught there. And they used this little— That little religion. You went to the school and then from the church, and then from the church into their school. I'm trying to think. They— | 45:41 |
| Estelle Graham | Heritage and I think about that because she taught that. I can picture that family home there and the church right on the corner of Mint and Hill Street. When Isabelle White was being built, we, in the little off district, went to that little area school because we couldn't go to my school, that was torn down. That was an elementary for all. Even my sisters, the older ones that went to elementary, on my street, the little old elementary school and then that second one made history too. | 0:01 |
| Estelle Graham | And while Isabelle White was then built, we didn't have to migrate like we did and they were working real hard. I don't like to use them, knowing that the family, just about all the Moorehead family dead, I don't like to use them too much into when I'm talking, but they were working very, very hard for us to get into D.H. Hill and it had to be private and all, it had to be this but there were— | 0:32 |
| Sonya Ramsey | What type of—? Was that an elementary? | 0:58 |
| Estelle Graham | Elementary school. It was like a few blocks down there. They'd have a few teachers that were willing to tutor us. | 1:00 |
| Sonya Ramsey | Was that a White school? | 1:05 |
| Estelle Graham | Yeah, it was segregated. All of that was during the segregated time, but I didn't feel comfortable. Even when we were asked, "Mama—" I said, "I don't think I would want to go". | 1:07 |
| Sonya Ramsey | That went bad? | 1:15 |
| Estelle Graham | Because it was that I just didn't feel comfortable pulling away. It was bad enough to live where you live and then to be pulling away. I was just too much into not wanting to pull away from my friends, my school, my school friends and church and all, because even to go through being driven from where you live to way to Morgan Street and then being picked up, I just didn't need that. | 1:20 |
| Estelle Graham | I just wasn't too comfortable with that, as a young girl. It was no good feeling, the only way you could get to school was either walk and drive or ride, well I don't want to say drive, but knowing that the facility was there for you to get there and the facility to come back, I just didn't want it. | 1:45 |
| Speaker 4 | How you doing, all? | 2:05 |
| Sonya Ramsey | How are you? | 2:05 |
| Speaker 4 | Good. | 2:05 |
| Estelle Graham | I just didn't want that because, and I'm going to have to admit to this, talking with you and knowing it's on tape, the worst thing with segregation is to not be comfortable with your own peers, your own race. To be sad that, in the name that you were called, I have to admit to this, White folks' niggas, the name that you would be called with your mom and daddy working hard. Two incomes coming in on Thursdays when they would get paid of the little checks every Thursday. | 2:07 |
| Estelle Graham | And they were more than able to do for us because they didn't have to pay rent at all to be able to wear better clothing, to be able to wear clothes that were really given or shared to you that they didn't have to buy. You would like, and I'll have to admit there were some teachers that they would see wearing your Sunday clothes, but they were clothes that we could wear because they were our clothes. They were going in a whole GAP, they were clothes mostly given to us. When school was started, we would get skirts and a sweater or something thicker. | 2:48 |
| Sonya Ramsey | Did you have a favorite by any of your teachers? Or keep talking about any of the teachers that you had. | 3:23 |
| Estelle Graham | I'm going to tell you, I'm glad you asked me that. At elementary school, I had a teacher and like today I don't talk too plain because my tongue had to be clipped. Lisp be talking. | 3:30 |
| Sonya Ramsey | Okay. | 3:44 |
| Estelle Graham | My tongue was tied, tied tongue and I was seven— Six or seven years before they realized they had to cut it. They hit me two or three times with a yard stick because I could not, and like today, I won't pronounce it for you because I can't say it today. I could not pronounce C—O—W. | 3:44 |
| Sonya Ramsey | But that wasn't your fault though. | 4:10 |
| Estelle Graham | No, but she referred to me, she said— She was so aggravated with me and I said, "C—O—W" like today, I say cow, I said, "Cow" and she referred to me trying to talk like those White children. She pronounced it properly but I couldn't say it properly and she thought I was being rude. | 4:10 |
| Estelle Graham | She really did, and she was a sweet teacher but she just couldn't— And she just did not understand why I did not say C-O-W properly and I could read things but for some reason I kept saying, "Cow". She got so angry with me. She was correct to try to teach me properly. She was English and she just got so upset with me for having that attitude. The teachers were beautiful teachers. I don't think of a teacher I ever had that I didn't like. And even I could understand why she felt like that I was being rude and not doing it properly. Plus this, we had PTA, just like me telling you about that, that was told to the parent. It was a good relationship between the parent and the school, and it was just like, "Now, I'm going to tell you one more time and I don't want to have to tell your mama or your dad." | 4:35 |
| Estelle Graham | And when you would go to school and this and that, and they would have that little meeting you had to go in, they would straighten you out at home. My mother and dad were not whipping people, they taught. I never shall forget in high school at Isabella, I mean, the second one, the high school, Mr. Grigsby, the best principal anywhere that could ever be. His family's home is right up the street here. His two sons live up here, right up the street here. Mr. Grigsby did not play, you had to act right in school. He was one of the best principals anybody could have ever been under, and he had pride about his school and his student, but he didn't go for fighting, he didn't go for bringing knives to school and things that happened. Now, he did not play because they had detention every day. It was embarrassing to sit in detention in high school. | 5:35 |
| Sonya Ramsey | I wanted to go back and ask you one more question about your elementary. What was—? | 6:32 |
| Estelle Graham | Bless your heart. | 6:37 |
| Sonya Ramsey | What did you and your friends do? Would your friends ever tease you about something? | 6:41 |
| Estelle Graham | No, because it was strange, not really strange, but school and church in the family situation, we were all bonded because I've lost a lot of friends that we went to school together in the first grade, and our parents, they were like church, they were all extended families. I think that would be a good way to put it, and you just didn't do too much into that kid and tease, and you take Clyde Brown, he's deceased last year, and his mother and father, just like my mother and father, in the church, we were in the same Sunday schools together, go to picnics together. Our social gathering was mostly school and church. | 6:44 |
| Sonya Ramsey | Did the White children you played with as a child, did they ever question why you went to a different school? | 7:28 |
| Estelle Graham | No, it was just that. Things like that, you didn't talk, when you were at play you were at play. This? Hilda, what about when you got married? | 7:32 |
| Hilda | I married a White. | 7:42 |
| Sonya Ramsey | Oh my. | 7:46 |
| Hilda | One day we were out playing, all of us playing in the yard. My mom and daddy, it was just a yard where you get out there and play, they had pretty flowers and all. It was a big surrounding where you didn't have to worry about cars or anything. So, we would play games. We just played school in this way. So this particular— They would play being married. I can't call this boy's name if I had to, and I liked that because we played. Boys and girls played together. I do remember a Valentine, the first Valentine I got was from one of the little White friends, a nice little decent— Threw the rock on the door and you heard the noise out there, "Valentine!" We went out and there was a Valentine at— | 7:47 |
| Sonya Ramsey | That was the usual practice that they did? | 8:39 |
| Estelle Graham | Yeah. | 8:40 |
| Sonya Ramsey | Oh, okay. | 8:40 |
| Estelle Graham | And we would get Christmas presents for each other, we'd change presents. It was just beautiful. It was nice. So this, and my mama, I thought when she looked out, she says, "What in the world going on?" Just like she spoke up then. I can't call the young boy's name if I had to right now. So, me and Hilda are getting married, we were the little bridesmaids, the little flower girls, we picked some about. | 8:42 |
| Speaker 4 | You're thinking of Charles Porter. | 9:06 |
| Estelle Graham | Oh, Charles Porter. Oh, they were nice. Charles, he was a type. He and his sister. Her name was Gaither. They would be at our house more than home, Gaither and Charles Porter, they were so nice. | 9:08 |
| Speaker 4 | [indistinct 00:09:23] in about three hours. | 9:22 |
| Estelle Graham | What bill? | 9:22 |
| Speaker 4 | This right here. | 9:22 |
| Estelle Graham | Oh, that's for old [indistinct 00:09:26]'s funeral. | 9:25 |
| Speaker 4 | I know him. | 9:26 |
| Estelle Graham | And another thing, this is interesting, when I mentioned the plan and all and gave it to Porter— She's deceased. Anytime anybody would miss their children, they would call and say, "[indistinct 00:09:46] is so—and—so there?" Or whatever, they would know they were at our house, I'll put it down that way. But we had so much fun and we played, and I'm trying to think, one child at Easter time that was a Catholic, I can't call his name right today, and we were there at Easter, we had jelly beans around. | 9:29 |
| Estelle Graham | I'm sure mama had already dyed our eggs or whatever, and he had some jelly beans and was eating jelly beans and finally he just went into convulsions. He was so hurt and so upset and he started. We didn't know what had happened, so mama said, "Well, what's wrong with him?" What was his name? John I believe. Now, I might be wrong, and mama called his mother and she came down. But what happened, he was supposed to give up sweets at a lengthened time and he forgot, it frightened us. | 10:08 |
| Estelle Graham | It was like the punishment was going to come on him. That's when we started learning about the Catholic church, and his mother was real nice and she explained to us, and when he would come to play with us and he had a sister, I think they were on top of us, and she would explain to us about the Catholic church and their beliefs and things like that. And he played with us for years. We tried to figure out what had happened. Somebody said, "Mama, John is choked" but after he came to himself, after he had put that cane in his mouth, he froze. | 10:42 |
| Estelle Graham | Ooh, it was an awfully frightening experience. And there was a little Catholic church up the street from us, that's all we knew about the Catholic ways of things. It was to me, like today, it was one of the most beautiful experiences you could ever have to really know things firsthand and when you can really say that you did not go through that hatred, you didn't go through that fear and you didn't go through that — | 11:16 |
| Estelle Graham | You push yourself to do what you knew and what you were taught to, and that was to go to school and get along with people and just go on about your business. There were people on Hill Street that were very nice. There was lady there that used to sew for us. There was another lady there that was a good— Mrs. Berlese, looked like her husband works at the Salvation Army. They were the people that told mama about a man that was said things to— If we would go out through the two houses, we'd leave our house, we would go out between those two houses, head Hill Street and go up fine and go up. | 11:46 |
| Estelle Graham | They were the one that told Mom and Dad how this, a person, a man, made a comment about us or whatever and he'd let Mom and Daddy know about it, and then after that, we put a fence up because it wasn't that we knew for sure, but I and mama thought it was so nice for Mr. Leach his name was, to say [indistinct 00:12:48] could be sitting on the porch and when the girls go through there, this person, this guy, he made some comments about— One day he was going to take advantage of somebody that come through that. One of us. | 12:24 |
| Estelle Graham | And Mom and Daddy thought it was so nice for them to say that, and then after that, they put this fence up. It was a fence, and we didn't go that way. When we were into the age and we were being— Things said. They learned, my Mom and Emily, learned a lot of things. Mom and Daddy, they wasn't too much to go to the Moorehead's for certain things. They knew what was best for us, and then from that we had to stop going through that. We had to go all the way back up this street down that street and then Tryon Street. | 13:04 |
| Sonya Ramsey | Did I ask you this? What were the holidays like in your time? | 13:38 |
| Estelle Graham | Oh, fine. Oh, your food, it was beautiful. I'm going have to be honest with you. Hilda, if you're going to the store, I need something. Excuse me. | 13:44 |
| Hilda | Well, let me know because I'm getting ready. | 13:52 |
| Estelle Graham | Well, go on then. | 13:54 |
| Sonya Ramsey | Okay. | 13:55 |
| Estelle Graham | That's okay. Don't stop. | 13:55 |
| Hilda | Let me know now, I'm getting ready to go. | 13:56 |
| Estelle Graham | No, I said, "Well, go on." Come on. Oh, look honey. We would have our fruit. Our tree would always be on Christmas Eve, that would be the tree. You go to bed, the tree was up. | 13:57 |
| Sonya Ramsey | Okay. | 14:03 |
| Estelle Graham | Okay. Christmas was like, I don't know, I can't really explain it. We always got everything we wanted for Christmas. Our Christmas was fine. We got presents. Now this, when I grew into age, I didn't like doing this but this is what we would do. After Mom and Dad, we'd have our Christmas month, they would be off now for the holiday, and we'd have our Christmas and we'd have the presents and naturally the fruits would be like a bush of fruit and the nuts, we had everything that you would want. But when we would dress for Christmas day, whether it was a weekday or Sunday, whatever, she would say, she said, "Now Estelle, I know you don't like to do this. I know you growing up and you don't really like to do this, but Mrs. Moorehead wants to see you." | 14:03 |
| Estelle Graham | Then you would go up there to see for her and she would give us individual gifts and it would always be a nice little gift and money. Your own little monies. I really appreciate my mother and daddy knowing. Every week, every Sunday, after church and into the evening, we would get our money for the week. | 14:59 |
| Sonya Ramsey | You had an allowance. | 15:22 |
| Estelle Graham | We had a little allowance and it wasn't that much but it's what you got for the week. It wouldn't be the same thing either. | 15:23 |
| Sonya Ramsey | And you had eight—? How many brothers and sisters did you have? | 15:30 |
| Estelle Graham | Well, at the time that, let's see the older ones out of four— I was the older of the four of us, which would be her, Ernestine and her, that would be the brother we had. I have a retarded sister that's not well that's in the nursing home now, and that was just two years ago that she's been there, but she was home, kept at home and looked after with family and friends and doctors and whatever. But she had a fever that caused her to have brain damage, at six years old, she wasn't born that way and she was looked after at home. At the nurse home, it killed me to say they've been smarter than any of her. She was a self—learning person at home and she learned to do her little things. We all helped. | 15:33 |
| Estelle Graham | Getting back to that, Christmas was real, real nice and very nice but it was where as nice as your Christmas was, we were taught, in the word that my mother and daddy used and you think about it today, you don't go to school and brag about what you got for Christmas. It was a sharing thing mostly at home, but when you went to school or when you went out or even if somebody come to your house, you didn't go through that, "I got this, I got that, I got this and that." They did not allow that. And mama said just make it nice and just say, "Well, I had a nice Christmas." Sometimes you would say, "Well, what did you get for Christmas?" You'd have to write it down. You would write you had a nice Christmas. A lot of times we had neighborhood gifts, we'd have nice things and she just didn't believe in you just telling how much material things you got for Christmas. They didn't like that. | 16:22 |
| Sonya Ramsey | Why was that? Did they—? | 17:21 |
| Estelle Graham | It was just the values that they taught that material things were not that important, and Momma would often say things. That a lot of these things, you got your mommy and dad, now we're not able to get these nice things for you but I don't want you to be just so saying, "I got too many. I got three sweaters, I got two skirts." A lot of people say, "Ella, what would you like for me to give the children for Christmas?" Most of the family, people in the family, they worked for and she would say, "Well, they want this or that" and then sometimes you'd get two sweaters, two skirts plus what they got. She didn't want you to be a person to say how much you got for Christmas. She would always say the most important thing you can get for Christmas is friends. Friends. They were good people. I think about them so much. Just proud. | 17:23 |
| Sonya Ramsey | I wanted to go on to your high school, could you talk some about your high school experience? | 18:17 |
| Estelle Graham | My high school was fine. I got a book right here from Second Ward High School, I'm with the alumni association. High school was just a new beginning for me. It was like I had my freedom in high school. My freedom of expression, where you were not just that limited. I was into, and I thank God that I started my dating early— | 18:21 |
| Sonya Ramsey | Why is that? | 18:46 |
| Estelle Graham | Because I was taught, even Mama was saying, "You know, you're getting in age—" She let it be known that when you get aged old enough to date, don't. And I refused and I viewed, which would be the older girls were that way too, you couldn't have a whole lot of different persons coming visiting. She was strict about that. She said, "When you old enough to have one boyfriend you can date" but she didn't care too much for that. | 18:47 |
| Estelle Graham | Now, the church friends that would come, that was different. That was like the family was knowing and all of that. But it was instilling us, the two of us, we went to school, high school together, to be real careful, boys just come and come. First place, she said, "I don't want it" and the second place, "It wouldn't look nice to have in and out, in and out boys in and out" because they were working and she said, "Now, one person. Weekend dating." | 19:16 |
| Estelle Graham | You didn't date when school was going on unless it was something where you would go but you couldn't have boys in and out the house, and I really appreciate that because that was, even though we lived where we lived, that was by them working, they couldn't say that they were up there working and we were in the house acting up with boys in and out. | 19:43 |
| Estelle Graham | And each boy that I ever had as a friend really loved my mother and father because Daddy and Momma would make ice cream. Mostly Sunday was dating time. When you go to the socials, we called it, go to a dance. | 20:06 |
| Sonya Ramsey | What were the socials? | 20:20 |
| Estelle Graham | Oh, every Friday night. The second one you had a dance. | 20:21 |
| Sonya Ramsey | Oh, okay. | 20:23 |
| Estelle Graham | The piccolo—like dancing mostly, and then maybe a girl that was there would do something one week or the Patol boys another week or the teachers would do something. | 20:24 |
| Sonya Ramsey | The Patol boys? | 20:34 |
| Estelle Graham | But you know what I love? Was that Friday night dance at Second Ward High School at the auditorium. | 20:35 |
| Sonya Ramsey | What kind of music did they play? | 20:43 |
| Estelle Graham | Honey, they had that piccolo music. On some occasions now, I got to remember because there were, we had Flat Tie Mason, he was a member of my church, he had a band. Lou Curry had a band and there's one more. | 20:45 |
| Sonya Ramsey | Lou Curry? | 21:00 |
| Estelle Graham | Uh—huh, Flat Tie Mason. | 21:01 |
| Sonya Ramsey | Okay. | 21:05 |
| Estelle Graham | Who was this fella that used to play the piano? He lived over there in Greenville. Ooh, he played the piano. I can't call his name, but I know it was Flat Tie, Lou Curry, and seeing that we had three bands— Ooh, it'll come to me, whoever, but I know it was Lou Curry and Flat Tie Mason. He was member of my church, little flat tie. Boy, I tell you, and I mean, this is why I was saying, when you have socials and things, the bands, we were like piccolos were out. | 21:06 |
| Sonya Ramsey | [indistinct 00:21:36] a jukebox? What's a—? | 21:35 |
| Estelle Graham | Yeah, a [indistinct 00:21:36]. | 21:35 |
| Sonya Ramsey | Okay. | 21:35 |
| Estelle Graham | But the music that made you really want to go places were when the bands would be. It's going to be three bands, but I can't think but one, Flat Tie that they would play for certain dances. Out here at Sunset Park down not too far from here. Down on the lower end here on that stale street, they would have a swing session. | 21:36 |
| Sonya Ramsey | What's that? | 22:08 |
| Estelle Graham | Okay, you would go on Monday nights, Friday nights. I think we paid a fee of maybe 25 cents, maybe less than that, maybe some nights you would get in free, and every teenager in Charlotte, which would represent the schools, like Second Ward in West Charlotte up here and this used to be the high school before the big high school. And you would go and you would socialize and I like that too, you couldn't go nowhere, hardly anyone would come to a dance without a date. | 22:09 |
| Sonya Ramsey | Oh, okay. | 22:41 |
| Estelle Graham | You would have a date. That was protection. Even I think about young women now, how they don't seem to want to be in a one on one relationship with a young man, I'm talking about in my family, I'm not talking about anything else, but your protection was your one date. You would go past it. A whole lot of things that's happened now with young people, that boyfriend would take you and you socialize with other people and all and your boyfriend would bring you back with a 10 cent cab there. You didn't pay no more, Victory Cab I think was them, and then I think 25 cent cab. A yellow cab used to be 25 cents in Charlotte, and you could just ride, if the young people didn't have the cars, you ride the cab or the bus. We used to go to— What's this street up here? I think a ballroom up here. What's that street now? Lord have mercy. | 22:43 |
| Estelle Graham | Whoever they had, big dances like when they had the Mayday dance and this and that. We went to the ballroom for the big dances with a band. Yeah, the socializing was fine and the movies, the grand theater here. We didn't come out here to the grand theater except on Sundays. We would be dressed coming in the building, sniff students where we knew how to be well dressed. When you come out in this area on a Sunday and recognize the neighborhood and all. And then the grand theater and the support theater, we had three theaters. Social life was fun in Charlotte. | 23:40 |
| Sonya Ramsey | You said the swing sets, they were like a big dance? | 24:19 |
| Estelle Graham | It was like what we used to see on TV a long time ago, Dick Clark would come on. | 24:22 |
| Sonya Ramsey | Oh, like—? | 24:26 |
| Estelle Graham | It was just everybody would go and you'd do the popular dances, whatever it was and I mean, it was fun. | 24:27 |
| Sonya Ramsey | What were some of the popular dances? | 24:32 |
| Estelle Graham | Oh Lord, what is some of those things? Oh, this little thing they called trucking, for one thing. And what's this? Little Suzie Q they called that. What's this other little old dance we used to do? Oh, most of these little things came from New York. The Big Apple. | 24:35 |
| Sonya Ramsey | Okay. | 24:54 |
| Estelle Graham | That was almost a little bit like the slide today when I think about the Big Apple, because I remember we wore big apple skirts. | 24:54 |
| Sonya Ramsey | What was a big apple skirt? | 25:00 |
| Estelle Graham | It was wide, very wide. It's like the [indistinct 00:25:06]. | 25:02 |
| Sonya Ramsey | Okay. | 25:05 |
| Estelle Graham | It was a wide skirt and you're dancing in your little skirts that you wore, and the dances, the fellas, it wasn't too much contact dancing, it was more like you turning in your thing and all and you change your partners. It was fun. You know what you call it? Very social. You'd be dancing with somebody, somebody tap you on your shoulder and, well, my boyfriend said, "Man, you know better than that." This Is How for a song or something like that, Stardust and things like that, they would do it for Devil Men. But it was fun, what's some of those dances? The Big Gaff, now that was fun, that was similar to me of The Electric Slide kind of. | 25:07 |
| Sonya Ramsey | Oh okay. | 25:49 |
| Estelle Graham | It was a similar type. Oh Lord, [indistinct 00:25:53]. Oh, those records way back out. But I'll tell you, my favorite record that still is sold today was Stardust. That was it, and then the Blue Moon, they had good music, man. | 25:49 |
| Sonya Ramsey | Did you ever listen to the blues or anything like that? | 26:10 |
| Estelle Graham | I wasn't too much into blue. I don't know why. I was more— I don't know. | 26:12 |
| Sonya Ramsey | As a teenager, were there any neighborhoods where you couldn't go to or things like that? | 26:16 |
| Estelle Graham | Well, being teenagers it was just those home failures. You weigh things out, "What? Am I going to slip and do this and know I'm going be punished in a way where I don't want to be punished?" My mother and dad, they were not too much into whipping. They would just punish you like, "Well, you can't go. Well, you know you can't" or, "Do you know so—and—so having a party? Having this and that?" "Well, you know you were late coming in." I have people laughing about it. I went to First Ward one time and Mama had said, "Every time you go over there, now I don't want y'all to come home before dark. You better be home before dark." | 26:25 |
| Estelle Graham | We were over First Ward, on old Seventh Street and I'm trying to think, there was a cafe over there. What was that man's name? I believe that man's name was Charlie or Moe, he had the best music on his piccolo and Hilda and I, and whoever else, we went over there and it was getting dark and we tried to skate back. Now, here's what was so funny, we laugh about that today, [indistinct 00:27:28]. Most of my little associations just left so early and we laughed about it through the years and when we got on Trade Street and we saw that time was slipping up. Now, you skating home. | 27:03 |
| Sonya Ramsey | Oh you skated home? | 27:39 |
| Estelle Graham | You skating home. You supposed to be there before dark. | 27:40 |
| Sonya Ramsey | Oh, wait. Hold on. Just put the microphone there and through that now. | 27:45 |
| Estelle Graham | Okay, there. You were so into obeying your parents so you wouldn't be punished so you couldn't go back. But we went there, we had so much fun, we wanted to go back. Getting home before dark, the dark coming and I'm going to tell you, this is the funniest thing we laugh about today. | 27:47 |
| Estelle Graham | We take our skates off to be sure and for some reason and we laugh, we said, "Wonder why did you think you could make it better walking than skating back before dark?" So I made the statement, I said, "Well, I was just thinking two ways" because Mama said, "I want y'all to be back because I don't want you skating before dark." I was trying to do two ways to obey, if we get home at dark, we wouldn't be skating and if we got home before dark we could say, and I had made up, I said, "Well, you said for us to be home but don't want us skating in the dark, that's why we took the skates off, but the main thing, I was like most young people, I wanted to go back so bad I had the answers. That I don't go skating in the dark. | 28:05 |
| Estelle Graham | We were up in teens. Now, you get from over there before dark, maybe it was a skating party or whatever, and then I don't want you skating back over in this area in the dark or before dark. And so that dark was coming, took those skates off so we could go back but I'm trying to say we always knew we had to do what we had to do to keep from being punished, not physical punished but to not be able to go back where you were. And we would come out here at Sunset Park, we had to be home before 11 or at 11, you left at 10 and you obeyed so you could be in with the in crew. | 28:49 |
| Estelle Graham | And that's what you did. You just did what you had to do, you obeyed and you had to obey in school. You had to obey in the neighborhood. You hear a lot of people right now talking about, "Your mother and father were not the only people that looked after you during your times coming up." I have a Sunday School Superintendent, Mrs. Shipman. Mrs. Name is Shipman's mother, I can't call her name right now. Mrs. Name Hern. Her mother, Mrs. Hern was like a mother to me. I respected her like I did my mother in Sunday school. | 29:24 |
| Estelle Graham | She would say, "Now ask if, so—and—so—" if we would be out and be talking loud and laughing loud, she would speak to us, if we were doing a little too much twisting and turning in church, she would get on us after church in a proper manner. And she was sweet to say, "I'm going to talk to your parents" and I'm noticing she was the one that would instill into the parent to, since we were dating, to allow the boyfriends to visit church. | 29:58 |
| Estelle Graham | And I'd visit my boyfriend's church, he was a member of Ebernezer, that's what you did and I thought that was real nice. You would go to your boyfriend's church. Naturally, you had to meet the parents and he would come to your church, he would change about most of the evening things, BYPU and things like that. Bible school, we always went to Ebernezer Bible School because they had the biggest one at that time. And we went to Bible school at Ebernezer and you changed it around. You could visit friends' churches and it was more visiting churches than homes. You would visit church, school and home. | 30:27 |
| Sonya Ramsey | How did you meet your boyfriend? | 31:02 |
| Estelle Graham | In school. High school, and the strangest thing about it was just like being in school and going to the football games. He was the football player and sociable with the other young men. Two of them were— Let's see, how many church members did we have at that time in Second Ward? Three? Three, let's see, the Barrett Boys and Frank Bowman. I almost was so ashamed in church, about three seconds ago we were laughing and talking about old times. He was here for Easter and then he came back talking about old times. It was just like in the company, it wasn't love affair, it was more or less the time that you had dates there. It was mostly for escorts to take you certain places where the boys and girls would be on picnics and all, and it was just that type of beginning and then into the later years, it seemed that my last year in school and his year into going into the army is when we got real serious. | 31:04 |
| Estelle Graham | We were just serious where we felt like we would have a long life together, but my two years at Bible schools and then his years in the Army, it was just that we just would not. We were just like— | 32:10 |
| Sonya Ramsey | Apart? | 32:22 |
| Estelle Graham | Yeah. We had a social life in school but we didn't have what you call just love life. You understand that? | 32:24 |
| Sonya Ramsey | What other activities did you—? | 32:31 |
| Estelle Graham | And he was so nice. He was a nice person. | 32:32 |
| Sonya Ramsey | What other activities did you participate exactly in? | 32:33 |
| Estelle Graham | In the chorus | 32:33 |
| Sonya Ramsey | Mm—hmm. | 32:33 |
| Estelle Graham | Okay, the debating team. | 32:38 |
| Sonya Ramsey | Okay. | 32:40 |
| Estelle Graham | You can almost tell, and I did pretty good with my grades. It seemed to me that I almost borderlined the A, I just couldn't just do that A, but I could hit the B honor roll. It seemed that I worked in the library a while. I was so interested, like I said, in school that I did the advanced home economics course my senior year at Second Ward, and my class was the first class to graduate from the 12th grade. | 32:41 |
| Sonya Ramsey | Oh. | 33:10 |
| Estelle Graham | In 1942. | 33:10 |
| Sonya Ramsey | Okay. What was a [indistinct 00:33:11]? | 33:10 |
| Estelle Graham | A cheerleader? I believe it or not— | 33:10 |
| Sonya Ramsey | Yeah, a cheerleader. | 33:18 |
| Estelle Graham | Yeah, because we went to Greensboro with our team and they brought the [indistinct 00:33:23] back. We went to Greensboro two or three times with the music, with the choir. We brought back an award one year, maybe two. I mean, the year that I was in the chorus we got an award. We brought it back from Greensboro. That was real nice, Mr. Diamond. | 33:20 |
| Sonya Ramsey | Diamond? | 33:45 |
| Estelle Graham | Yeah. | 33:45 |
| Sonya Ramsey | Okay. | 33:46 |
| Estelle Graham | Edna Diamond's father. | 33:47 |
| Sonya Ramsey | Okay. | 33:48 |
| Estelle Graham | Mrs. Beckwith and Mrs. Kara Robinson, they were the music instructors. I mean, we had a chorus, we were singing at them. | 33:49 |
| Sonya Ramsey | What kind of songs did you perform? | 33:58 |
| Estelle Graham | We would go with the spirituals and we would just come on down. This song, what I'm thinking about, what's that song? When I'm Calling You. | 34:00 |
| Sonya Ramsey | Oh. | 34:11 |
| Estelle Graham | We had a music concert down at Second Ward and we went with the spirituals and we came on down with the folks and things of the sort, and this last song that we sang is When I'm Calling You, I can't call the name of that song right now. Everybody, I believe I was in the 10th grade going into the 11th grade and when the singing and everything was over, this friend of mine that I mentioned, not calling his name, he's deceased now, he came and everybody was saying that was nice for him. I think my sister at the time or somebody, Mom and Dad were there that night, and he came, while the chorus was sitting down through here, and he said, "I'm going to tell you the truth" and said, "Y'all really did sing that song." | 34:13 |
| Estelle Graham | And I being a woman, like we women are, that's when I just bubble because I thought that was so nice for him to come. The boys and young men, they were more withdrawn. He was right there, he said, "I'm going to tell you two, say you really did sing that song." And what's the name of that song, honey? | 35:01 |
| Sonya Ramsey | When I'm Calling You? | 35:24 |
| Estelle Graham | Yeah, it's a little love song, and that's when all and everybody and all that, I was more a little old. I think I was a year and some months older than he was, but that's when my heart start really bubbling. That was the first communication between two people where I had been a young lady that I had that little love because I had that little song there. And then, it was even in him in the army and me in college, we were really getting serious. Very serious about our relationship, and my mother and father liked him because he was such a very, very gentleman in our relationship because he knew he couldn't stay late and he knew I couldn't stay out late. That's why they respected him as a young man, being my friend and he was a protector too. | 35:25 |
| Estelle Graham | I think younger people like today, if they had more steady boyfriends, I'll put it like that, the younger group of people, it'll happen to kind of stay on course. Young men were just different. They would just talk different, you just had to respect that young lady. That's all it was to it. No and ifs and buts about it. | 36:21 |
| Sonya Ramsey | What would happen if a girl did get pregnant during that time? | 36:39 |
| Estelle Graham | Well, we had two girls in our class that became pregnant. The saddest thing about the whole situation with the two young ladies, they were the two ladies that you wouldn't dream that would have heard it with them because they didn't tell, they didn't mention it. It was just that it started being noticeable almost at the time of graduation, and this particular young lady, bless her heart, I think about her today, she's sweet today and she's living today, is how one day she broke down in the English class and all of us were upset. She was aware of this particular day, and she broke down and she just went into hysteria. | 36:43 |
| Estelle Graham | And I really appreciate the teacher, and he was a male teacher, Mr. Levi. He knew the other teachers knew and whatever. I mean, they assumed is what I'm saying and then by her appearance. And then, when they called the nurse and they took her out the room, it was so sad that she was so hysterical, and I never shall forget that as long as I live. It was a day where everybody just said, "So—and—so, blah, blah blah. What's wrong with you? You got to be pregnant" and she always said, "No." It was sad that she said no. | 37:28 |
| Sonya Ramsey | Did she think she would be thrown out of school? | 38:04 |
| Estelle Graham | It was just like she just didn't want it to be, she couldn't accept it, and the boyfriend was nice to her. I might've have it on the table but I even said, "Yeah I graduated" but I shouldn't have that on the table. Anyway— | 38:06 |
| Sonya Ramsey | Well, you didn't mention names. | 38:21 |
| Estelle Graham | Yeah, that's right, even with my name. But that was the saddest experience I went through in high school to know that my friend— It was that you respected people, you would notice people, but you just did not talk too much about situations like that, and they're the only two and then this other young lady, she wasn't able to march because it seemed that it was almost time for her and she couldn't, even with the robe on. Most girls with the parents, if it would happen they would just drop out of school. | 38:21 |
| Estelle Graham | And the worst thing about it, I don't think they came back or they had the program that they have now for young people now. It was just drop out. I'm trying to think did they accept them back? But you were just more into things and the teachers and all would kind of talk to you, mostly. More than your parents. More than your parents but they were like friendly talk. I would have a lot of teachers that really, to be honest, even with this tape, I had a male teacher that was telling me, even when my grades were dropping off a little bit, that I was a little too serious, if I go to a football game and things and I come to school the next day, I would not be real me. I was in that cheerleading and I was in that football. I didn't cheer for the team. | 38:57 |
| Estelle Graham | He would tell me, he said, "You know what, man? I know one thing" he said, "You need to start cheering for the team." He could see in me, being a man, what was not good for me because I just had this fat— I was just head over. It didn't bother my grace or anything, but I was just all the time peeping down the hall and all. They had to let me know that, "You better roll. You in bad shape girl." But I learned from that experience because he knew him as a young man and being a popular person that what he knew I learned later because he was a decent person, but he wasn't like a one—on—one relationship with me, and I had to learn that, but none of my girlfriends could tell me, but once the teacher and the people kind of let me know, "Chill out now. You're a little too serious." | 39:50 |
| Estelle Graham | My old sister had died, she would tell me that. She said, "Estelle, you won't go?" And I just wouldn't go to a place. You know what? It's a strange thing and I have been around much younger people, and I always like this little saying that says, "Best to have loved and lost to have never loved at all." But that, when you had it, that love is scary because see, even when I married, I was married 23 years and my husband was such a decent sweet man and he would often kid me and say, "You know, Estelle—" he said, "That's one thing—" he said, "I know when I first met you, you were getting over something but I will say this, I'm glad you got over it" he said, "But I don't believe you'll ever love anybody the way you love your boyfriend" and I mentioned that to people today. It was just a different thing. | 40:48 |
| Estelle Graham | I think that's why I settled down. I know I been in love. I didn't go. And the old saying, "If you love it, let it go, it'll come back to you" but I let go but mine didn't come back that way. My life, I tell you, it's been nice to me and would you believe right now I'm going to the doctor, 72 years old with arthritis? | 41:40 |
| Sonya Ramsey | I don't know when you'll be back but [indistinct 00:42:04]. | 42:00 |
| Estelle Graham | Yeah, that's what the doctor cared me about. | 42:00 |
| Sonya Ramsey | I wanted to go back and ask you how were the cheerleaders selected and accepted? | 42:08 |
| Estelle Graham | Well, I'll tell you the first thing, anything you could be into, whether we had this context where you could speak and do that, I wasn't too well at that, your grades, you had to be A/B to be in anything because your grades were utmost, and if you could any extra curriculum that you did in school, you couldn't do it unless you had the grades, if you could do your work and do this outside thing. So that was more, and I think that's the fair thing for anything, that's what they did, your grades. | 42:13 |
| Sonya Ramsey | Did you have to audition to be in the chorus? | 42:47 |
| Estelle Graham | Yeah. Yeah, we had a good music teacher. | 42:50 |
| Sonya Ramsey | Who was that? Were you nervous about that at all? | 42:53 |
| Estelle Graham | Not really. Knowing that she sang in Sunday school, we had a good choir at church, and knowing that I was alto, we had some good singers. This young lady died a few months back, Julia Dolby, she was a good singer. She sang all over Charlotte everywhere. She was our soprano. We had twins and all. But by me being an alto, a contralto, alto in that range, it wasn't too bad, but even when I went to Barber—Scotia, I seen the same scale. But your talents were inborn or you learn those talents, but the worst thing about anything is you just had to qualify but your grades had to be first. Now, if you had good grades plus qualifying? Grades qualify. You couldn't be in something because you wanted to, you had to have those grades first. Now that was the summer case. | 42:54 |
| Hilda | I was always getting [indistinct 00:43:56]. | 43:54 |
| Estelle Graham | Hot out there? | 43:57 |
| Hilda | And bad. | 43:57 |
| Estelle Graham | You did? | 43:57 |
| Hilda | Nothing but [indistinct 00:44:05]. | 44:04 |
| Sonya Ramsey | Okay— | 44:04 |
| Estelle Graham | Bless your heart, honey. Great. Well, now what? You finished? | 44:04 |
| Sonya Ramsey | No, there's more to go. | 44:06 |
| Estelle Graham | Oh, let me stop. I'm running my mouth. Hell, I'm talking about the first part of the thing. | 44:07 |
| Sonya Ramsey | I need to start back. | 44:12 |
| Estelle Graham | Yeah, bless your heart. | 44:13 |
| Sonya Ramsey | Finished the half part. Well, I wanted to ask you, did your teachers ever play favorites on people with skin,? Different skin shades and things like that? | 44:14 |
| Estelle Graham | No, because at Second Ward, and I don't think of a teacher— You really, even doing your work, doing your lessons, doing your good grades or whatever, they still helped the ones that were slow. I will say that, because they would have a study hall and you helped each other and I can't say that from Second Ward at all. I can't and I will not say that. | 44:21 |
| Sonya Ramsey | You don't think the light skinned people were treated any differently? | 44:48 |
| Estelle Graham | No, I never experienced that. | 44:50 |
| Sonya Ramsey | Okay. I guess we can move on then, why did you decide to go to Barber—Scotia? | 44:53 |
| Estelle Graham | Well, the first thing is we got the little scholarship. Two of us went to college together. | 45:00 |
| Sonya Ramsey | Oh, okay. | 45:02 |
| Estelle Graham | And then with my sister teaching, she paid for one. One, she paid one bill. And then my mom and dad was able to pay for the other bill. So it would be financial reasons for the first thing and then I wanted to go to an all girls school, that was really recommended to me, the first two years. At that time, it was just a junior college and just to get the feel of college and to go to two, it was that we were accepted there and we didn't, that I know of, I know I didn't put in for any other place but Barbara—Scotia, and it was recommended from— Let's see, I'm trying to think. | 45:03 |
| Estelle Graham | There's so many people from Charlotte there that spoke well at that time I think Mrs. Lively Davis, she was married to Baxter then. The sisters they are here, and it was just recommended. A nice college, small scale, two people in college with the income of the parent. It was more affordable. That would be the most honest thing to say for two in college. It was more affordable, and it was near home. And I loved that school, and it was a little Christian school. | 45:43 |
| Sonya Ramsey | What made you—? Why did you go? | 46:22 |
| Estelle Graham | It was almost like home. | 46:24 |
| Estelle Graham | — like the favoritism of the light, would you believe that it's [indistinct 00:00:12]. There were the Tates, probably don't need to call names. | 0:03 |
| Sonya Ramsey | People have mentioned them before. | 0:20 |
| Estelle Graham | Oh, they had, and the Butans and all that. I think they made the paper. They were some of the— And the Hogans, the Dr. Hogans and all, [indistinct 00:00:36] Tyson, her family— They were some of the sweetest people you could ever be around. They were giving, sharing. They were people that were just people. Sometimes, I know it was hard probably for them, but when I think about it it was the way that they carried themselves. | 0:21 |
| Estelle Graham | Now you take Ray Butan, everybody loved Ray Butan. He ended up being a police officer. He was just an in person, in—crowd person. Everybody loved Ray. They were people that were of more maybe financial— I'm sure of that because of the background family people, doctors, and teachers and all, but they didn't show it. They didn't act it. They were just decent people and naturally, I'm sure it came from the home training and the backgrounds and all. | 1:04 |
| Estelle Graham | In my time, there was some very influential— Like the young lady finished high school that died last year, the Pillar Studio people, little Marjorie, she was in my class. There were people that you respected and there were people that respected you, and people that you mingled with and shared with and all. I think that's what I mentioned. First Ward, I loved First Ward because it was nearer to go into First Ward than [indistinct 00:02:06] where we lived. First Ward in Brooklyn was a little off limits for us. | 1:36 |
| Estelle Graham | We were not allowed no more than to go to school. Now the reason for that is not like what was going on in Brooklyn. It was like the businesses there mostly. You could be into the little beer joints and things like that and the little things that it was off limit for us pre-teens, Brooklyn area, so we migrated to First Ward and then from First Ward we migrated this way, [indistinct 00:02:41] area and you just had certain limits and certain places that you could go. | 2:12 |
| Estelle Graham | But with the theaters and things over there, and it was good little bit used to happen over on Second Street. That was a street where people would just go, hang out and have fun, but it wasn't like killing and things like today. You would be certain places and people would say— Going maybe to the library and you go around and ask, "Your mom and them know you're over there?" There would be people that would ask you if they knew you were where you were. Okay, your legitimate reason, you're at the library, you going around to the theater get some popcorn, but it was just like people stayed— A lot of people my age, everybody looked after everybody. | 2:47 |
| Estelle Graham | Now you take Little Miss Pitman them, they were brought up over here right behind Smith on [indistinct 00:03:31], she and her sister and her mother. Her daddy worked on the train. If she would get the bus and some of her friends and come over to our house where we lived at the time, people would ask her that knew her from this side, neighbors and all that really didn't know that she's coming to grandmama's house, which was my mother. But it was in a way a little off limits to her to be leaving this area on the bus. Locun and Lisa, little Pitmans, her daddy railroad man and her mother was just a home person, you know. And Locun, "Uh-uh. I'm going over to my grandmama's." You know, "Locun, where you going?" "I'm going over to my grandmama's." That's when they were kind of reaching out and had the right to leave home and come over there. | 3:25 |
| Sonya Ramsey | Okay. You said you changed neighborhoods. How old were you when your family moved, or did they move? They didn't. They stayed working— | 4:24 |
| Estelle Graham | No. Now what happened— When you mentioned that this is interesting because I was married when the home, you know the renovation that they did in Charlotte with the highway through there? | 4:33 |
| Sonya Ramsey | Mm-hmm. [indistinct 00:04:54]. | 4:53 |
| Estelle Graham | The 77 and all of those things, when the time came to do the relocation, that's when we left the little homestead. Went to Liberty Street. | 4:54 |
| Sonya Ramsey | What neighborhood is that? | 5:06 |
| Estelle Graham | That was like two blocks. That was like two or three blocks what would have been designated as the Brooklyn area. But when I think about it, Brooklyn starts beyond [indistinct 00:05:19] Street so we lived on the corner [indistinct 00:05:22] and Liberty Street. So we still were not in that Brooklyn district. We were still like a block or two before we lived in Brooklyn because Brooklyn was beyond [indistinct 00:05:32] Street. And then from there we moved right back on College Street while this house was being built, and that was back where we started from on this side of [indistinct 00:05:45]. There were a little White neighbor there at the time when we moved there but they weren't there too long because it wasn't too long before where we were, that's where that terminal right now is through there. | 5:08 |
| Estelle Graham | This two movings, knowing that these little monies was in trust funds and all, it was time for them to go. Well, daddy didn't make it him, but Mama moved here. We moved here in '60. '59, daddy died '59, '60 and she died in '81 and this was the home that they built from their little monies that they saved through the years. And it wasn't what you might call it wasn't— It was through their hard work, through their little labor, buying a little lot, and then through their little monies that they got from the little wills that was in trust for a home. And that's how they came about this little— And it was just like for mama and daddy and my sister [indistinct 00:06:44] in the nursing home, but with families being like families are— | 6:00 |
| Estelle Graham | Let's see, my husband died in '72, but when my father died it was like a request. Since my sister was in Florida, my other sister in her own place, it was just like it wouldn't be fair for me. When I say fair, and I understood the situation, for mama to be widowed here with just that one sister so my husband and my son, he stayed here, so he went on into the home. The son did, went on into college and we just more or less just did what we had to do under the circumstances after daddy's death because mama didn't drive or anything. | 6:51 |
| Sonya Ramsey | Okay. I want to go back and talk about [indistinct 00:07:35]. Did you live in the dormitory there or did you commute? | 7:30 |
| Estelle Graham | No, I didn't go to [indistinct 00:07:40]. I went to— | 7:37 |
| Sonya Ramsey | Oh, I mean Barber— I'm sorry. | 7:39 |
| Estelle Graham | Barber-Scotia. We lived in the dormitory. I loved, I love Scotia. | 7:41 |
| Sonya Ramsey | What was that experience? | 7:45 |
| Estelle Graham | It was just like home really. You had those strict rules. You had that mannerism that you had to have. You had that dress card. You had those dating cards. Your company that came to visit you, they had to be on that list. You couldn't have company just coming on the campus. I mean your male— On Sundays is when you could have your day— Friday nights and Sunday evenings, and the Sunday that Pearl Harbor— You know, that had a lot to do with my not going my other two years too. The Sunday that Pearl Harbor was blown, we were sitting in the guest room. That was a sad time, and it came over the television, of course, a radio or whatever. A lot of time we'd be laughing and talking. | 7:47 |
| Estelle Graham | And about six of the young ladies there went into hysterics because three of them brothers were at Pearl Harbor. They were sending them to school. And it was so sad. And one of the girls— Later on we learned it, one of the young ladies' brother was killed there. The other two girls, it seemed that nothing happened to their brothers or whoever there, maybe the uncles or whatever. But do you know, you'd be surprised to know how many people dropped out of school after Pearl Harbor. | 8:31 |
| Sonya Ramsey | And why did they [indistinct 00:09:13]. | 9:10 |
| Estelle Graham | It was just like a thing since it got bad because that support coming from those childrens, your uncles, your brothers and whatever sending people to school. There were times that we felt like Barber-Scotia was going to be closed because a lot of times for breakfast you just didn't have what you needed. | 9:13 |
| Estelle Graham | I remember one morning and I thought it was so shameful and I think about it, that we had baloney and grits and it seemed like— She was a good little old dietician too. Seemed like she had a little gravy and things were such and sad and economically bad. It hit the school now. I don't know what happened there, but it did bounce back because you know it's co-educational now. It bounced back that a lot of the young— I'm trying to really, even in my mind, even with graduation, the year that we graduated without the two years, there were a lot of young people, young ladies just dropped out of school because of the finances. The financial reason that their— | 9:35 |
| Sonya Ramsey | They had fathers [indistinct 00:10:24]. | 10:23 |
| Estelle Graham | Fathers or the brothers or uncles or somebody that was helping them in school. They had to drop out. A lot of people lost [indistinct 00:10:34]. | 10:23 |
| Sonya Ramsey | And you said that had an effect on your not continuing. | 10:33 |
| Estelle Graham | It affected me to the extent that it was just like it was a defeat even for me to want to go on and want to do good, and then I would sit and think. Then I learned real young, tomorrow's not promised. It was just like I just said, "Well, well, well. You just don't ever know what's going to happen." Then I learned in years that I learned to live with certain things. It worked on me psychological. You seeing your friends in the war, and incidentally my friend was in the army. It was just things that bothered with me. | 10:37 |
| Sonya Ramsey | Were you worried about your friends? | 11:17 |
| Estelle Graham | Everybody and so many friends that we danced with and didn't ever see anymore. And the war from that, and we lost so many friends in the army even from that day, and it did work on us. It really did. | 11:19 |
| Sonya Ramsey | How long was your friend in the army? | 11:38 |
| Estelle Graham | My two years college. His two years overseas and his two years back, [indistinct 00:11:53] four years and I correspond— My sister in Florida, right today she kept a lot of letters of mine. She thought they were so nice for his writing and I— Do you know, and I'll have to admit this, after my husband's death he came back in my life. [indistinct 00:12:21] get on TV. I tell you that did affect me because my brother, our brother, he had come from the army. He was in Washington then. | 11:41 |
| Sonya Ramsey | Your own brother was in the service too? | 12:30 |
| Estelle Graham | Yeah, he was in the navy I meant, and my baby brother was in the army. He was in the navy. Just a lot of things. And then you'd be a home person, you wonder, you sit and think. I don't know, sometimes your friends— Just look like things just happen so fast and so quick and like I said, when the second war, when the summer came and you graduated and you were not with your little everyday life, then when after your two years college you come back, this person's in the army, that person's up north, this person this way. I really— My life had to be reorganized. | 12:33 |
| Estelle Graham | And that's when— Let tell you what else I did. I'm trying to get this together. Oh, I went to the S and W after I was married, but before I went to the S and W I worked at the hospital. | 13:22 |
| Sonya Ramsey | Which one? | 13:37 |
| Estelle Graham | Shiloh Memorial. | 13:37 |
| Sonya Ramsey | Shiloh Memorial, okay. | 13:37 |
| Estelle Graham | It was just like it was something I had to do so the two years that I didn't go, and I may have a retraction on that because I mentioned S and W, but I went to the S and W to have to— Well, I used to work in the school cafeteria too. | 13:41 |
| Sonya Ramsey | Oh, that's okay. [indistinct 00:13:55]. | 13:54 |
| Estelle Graham | But anyway, but here's what I'm saying. After the war, I went to Memorial Hospital to work because it looked like it was something I needed to do. That's what I'm trying to say. But I was into the same area into the what they call the canteen, and I worked there with a friend of mine, little Louis McAfee, a dear friend. She's from Monroe. We were friends all the way through, and let's see, it was ad in the paper where it needed help at the hospital. It looked like when I went there it was like back in Second Ward back with my old friends again. And we worked there, I worked there the years— How long did I work at the hospital? That's where I met my husband too, at the hospital, because he was cooking there. | 13:55 |
| Estelle Graham | It seemed to me— Well I put some years there. I'm trying to think— | 14:52 |
| Sonya Ramsey | Is that before you worked [indistinct 00:14:57]? | 14:54 |
| Estelle Graham | This is what I'm trying to think. You know, I am so confused. I went to the hospital. | 14:56 |
| Sonya Ramsey | [indistinct 00:15:08]. | 15:06 |
| Estelle Graham | Oh, I went to the cafeteria. | 15:08 |
| Speaker 3 | [indistinct 00:15:11] have a drink of water or something. | 15:10 |
| Estelle Graham | She got the tape on. | 15:11 |
| Speaker 3 | [indistinct 00:15:13]. | 15:11 |
| Estelle Graham | She got the tape on here. Now here's what I made a mistake. When I left the hospital and went to over here, S and W, it was that I needed more income. When I was at the hospital I was doing part-time. I didn't work full-time, and then after being married, needing more income, my son out of high school, my husband was a cook. He was a cook. He cooked at the hospital, two hospitals. He had a nice record as a cook, and knowing that he finished high school, wanted to go to college, that's when I went to S and W. | 15:13 |
| Sonya Ramsey | Oh, because you had been married a while then. [indistinct 00:16:06] so you met your husband at the hospital? | 16:06 |
| Estelle Graham | He was— | 16:09 |
| Sonya Ramsey | How long before had you stopped dating the other boy? | 16:09 |
| Estelle Graham | It was just that I was dating him in my mind and one day he came to me. I was sitting out in the little— Now you know Memorial Hospital opened up early when it came to desegregating. They really did because even when I got the job in the little canteen, it was little things that I had to go through this orientation and this and that and a lot of people would come in. They want you to wait on them. A lot of little situation. And one day Dr. Pemisteel was waiting on the— We didn't wait. We didn't wait the tables. They had the little White waitresses and this head doctor at the hospital, Dr. Pemisteel, he was a German doctor, brain specialist. He came in and he was watching his watch and he couldn't be waited on and he would always come down for coffee. He never would eat any food. | 16:13 |
| Estelle Graham | We thought about this today and he sat in that little booth with his paper and looking and I got aggravated. I got the coffee and I took it to him and he did my hand like that. He said, "I was just wondering which one of you would do that." And I'm not thinking too long. He said, "Now, I can't understand why—" I was just wondering which one of us, there were three of us Black girls in the three of the waitresses and he didn't even— He never would ask for coffee. He would always come back there. The waitress [indistinct 00:17:40] and the other ladies, when he was sitting there, they'd take his coffee, black coffee or just coffee, take it to him. I did because I had a husband, didn't make me any difference. I knew it wouldn't be no racist situation but you wasn't supposed to do this or that so if I wasn't supposed to, I could come on home, think nothing of it. I wasn't going to be out anything. | 17:02 |
| Estelle Graham | So I took his coffee to him and he thought that was so nice. Okay, two, three, four days passed. I came to work. Mrs, Miss [indistinct 00:18:11], Mr., "Well you got to go up to the office." I said, "Now, what do you mean I got to go to the office?" That's one thing I did speak my mind about that. So I went up there and he told me about how Dr. Pemisteel thought it was so nice for me to bring that coffee to him without him waiting for the waitress, the special waitress to bring it. Then I knew he had to go back where he was going because he was running down there, whatever. Even if that, it didn't make me any different. | 17:59 |
| Estelle Graham | And from that day on, Louise— Oh, I can't call this other girl's name. There were three of us. We changed uniforms from our little uniform where we did the preparation, the sandwiches and things like that. We got to wait tables. Okay, it was no big deal. It was just gradually work to end. There would be times that people would come in and wouldn't particularly care anything about you waiting on, but it didn't make any difference. | 18:41 |
| Sonya Ramsey | And you got better income [indistinct 00:19:13]? | 19:11 |
| Estelle Graham | Yeah. We started that little waiting table from that. It's so strange that I'm sitting here talking about it. Oh, well. Here's what happened. After the courtship, after the friendship, after the marriage, and then when I left Memorial Hospital and I was home with my— After that, I never worked until— Let's see, I think Bobby was like six, five years old, because he went to the daycare. I stayed at home with my son, with my child. | 19:12 |
| Sonya Ramsey | [indistinct 00:19:44]. | 19:42 |
| Estelle Graham | And then when I went back to work, I went to the school cafeteria and then from the school cafeteria, when he finished high school, that's when I went to the S and W. | 19:43 |
| Sonya Ramsey | Oh, that's a while. | 19:53 |
| Estelle Graham | So I got all of that all twisted up because I needed that, I was able to venture out and have that more of income to help with his college so that's how that worked. So I did the type of work that I always wanted to do, but I wanted my own place, and I used to do it at home. I used to cook all the time. That's what's wrong with my knee. I used to cook, always have a house full of— I had to stop that. | 19:54 |
| Sonya Ramsey | What was your wedding like? | 20:19 |
| Estelle Graham | Very, very simple. I didn't have a wedding. We went to [indistinct 00:20:27]. It was just like— I just didn't know. I didn't dare think. I just wasn't intimate and the cutest thing about it, Robert was very— He was real nice. He would kid me about crying over spilled milk, say everybody go to the army change. He would kid me and so one day we would go out together. He was my boyfriend and all and he said, "You know, I just think about you." Said, "You so contented, same boyfriend, girlfriend and this and that." He said, "I'm going to be honest with you." Said, "I want a wife." Said, "You too old to be my girlfriend." And we talked about that. That's how he proposed to me. I was too old to be a girlfriend. He wanted a wife. He was tired of girlfriend and he just played along with it and it was just like, "No way you'd ever be my husband," but he proved himself to be a gentleman. We were married 23 years. | 20:27 |
| Sonya Ramsey | How did he prove himself? | 21:15 |
| Estelle Graham | Just pursuing me, letting me know that he was interested in me for a wife. "You need a husband. You're too old to be dating a boyfriend, girlfriend." I was 23 when I married. He just played it down. He didn't play with me. And he called y'all, right, [indistinct 00:21:34] call y'all in my living room on a Sunday evening, whatever it was. Might not have been a Sunday. Put the application there. We went down on a Tuesday and got married and then the coworkers I was working with gave us the nicest little reception and gifts and everything. | 21:17 |
| Estelle Graham | And I was into another group of loving people with my school group and my Barber-Scotia group, with those Memorial Hospital group of people. They were just school people like, oh, I just bonded with those people. Right today, we have children together. I have a close friend. She called it. The four of us dated the men we married right at that hospital and we have our children around the same age. And we were just with the little in crowd and we had fun. | 21:52 |
| Sonya Ramsey | Then you had your son and you stayed in the same neighborhood. | 22:26 |
| Estelle Graham | On Liberty Street and then College Street. And then they were like eight, her two boys and my son. After daddy died, we all moved in here with mama and my sister when the house was— So they went to school on this side of high school, West Charlotte. Northwest was the high school then and University Park. They went to school in this area— | 22:30 |
| Sonya Ramsey | [indistinct 00:23:00]. | 22:56 |
| Estelle Graham | And now our children went to, excuse me for cutting you off, they went to the Seventh Day Adventist School until they got old enough to go to the first grade. | 22:59 |
| Sonya Ramsey | Why did you— | 23:09 |
| Estelle Graham | Because it was like our little neighborhood situation. We put them in the private school. Now Isabella White's was over but they went there until they were old enough to go to elementary and they went to Isabella White. | 23:10 |
| Sonya Ramsey | I need to ask you, what organizations did you and your husband participate in? | 23:26 |
| Estelle Graham | I'm going to be honest with you. Nothing but the NAACP, the little thing for the thing, the little— And then all of our boys went through the Boy Scout, I mean the Cub Scout, Boy Scout situations, went and got their little things there. | 23:31 |
| Sonya Ramsey | Why did you participate in the NAACP? | 23:47 |
| Estelle Graham | It was just something that you really had to do, and the main thing about it is once you got into it and you get your little letters and you get the little things and your correspondence and you send your little monies in, it was a dedicated thing that the little Alexander's worked so hard toward. Even paying your little membership fee and all, they were in close contact with you that you just [indistinct 00:24:12]. | 23:49 |
| Sonya Ramsey | Were you in any social clubs? | 24:11 |
| Estelle Graham | No, uh-huh. No, he wasn't. | 24:14 |
| Sonya Ramsey | Was he in any social clubs? | 24:15 |
| Estelle Graham | I tell you he was a card player. He loved being whist but it wasn't like— It was organized in a way, but he played cars. He was a whist, big whist he played. Okay. That was a weekend thing. It was more or less not what you might call advertised, but I'll tell you when you say like social life, we were more socializing into our friend's home. One week this one, that week this one, that week— We were in this little weekend thing. This friend of mine, she kid me last week, said, "You need to come and visit with us." I said, "No, I don't visit anybody with a living husband now." She died laughing. She was telling me, said they don't fight over nothing at night but the cover. | 24:18 |
| Estelle Graham | But what I'm saying, my friends that I had then and our socializing friends and places we would go together and we mostly would go from house to house socializing. That was fun, and it was not into no particular thing. | 25:03 |
| Sonya Ramsey | Did you vote as a young woman/ | 25:20 |
| Estelle Graham | Always did and when I registered to vote, believe it or not, I had to go all the way back D.A. Till Elementary School with the big sign Colored. When I got old enough to vote, that's where I registered. I got a good voting record. I got a letter last voting time and I just vote every year. | 25:23 |
| Sonya Ramsey | Okay. I think I'm getting close to my questions. Oh, I wanted to ask you, did you continue in the same church [indistinct 00:25:55]? | 25:44 |
| Estelle Graham | All through the years, except the ones that married and moved and my sister up here, Locun now, they members of First Baptist. Well, it all depended. When you asking me, so I'm still a member of [indistinct 00:26:12]. I'm still a member. | 25:55 |
| Sonya Ramsey | Is your husband from Charlotte? | 26:12 |
| Estelle Graham | No, he was from South Carolina. Greenwood, South Carolina. | 26:13 |
| Sonya Ramsey | Okay, and he just became accepted into your family? | 26:19 |
| Estelle Graham | Very well. | 26:22 |
| Sonya Ramsey | Okay. [indistinct 00:26:27]. Is there anything else that you'd like to add? | 26:26 |
| Estelle Graham | No, I think I don't got— | 26:29 |
| Sonya Ramsey | Oh, I wanted to ask you about your husband's death. You got reacquainted with your old boyfriend. | 26:32 |
| Estelle Graham | Yeah. | 26:37 |
| Sonya Ramsey | How did that come about? | 26:37 |
| Estelle Graham | That was real nice, and then on top of that, my brother that died in Washington, I met another friend of mine from high school and this relationship lasted real, real long because we were real interested in a little very legal situation, but he deceased. That was nice because it was from his death that I got to visit back and forth to Washington— My brother died from Washington because I didn't go that much up there, and then my son lived in Washington for a while because he worked at— | 26:39 |
| Sonya Ramsey | This man was in Washington? | 27:13 |
| Estelle Graham | Mm-hmm, and I tell you, hon. I've had such a full life. I tell you, it's interesting even sometimes when I sit and think about it. So my life so far has been— I've been wonderfully blessed. I've said that. I really have, and it's just things and by him being a little Charlottean living in Charlotte, his mother became ill and he came down and we just had fun and went place, go [indistinct 00:27:44] Smiths dance together and just fun things. | 27:14 |
| Estelle Graham | And just a few years back, he had a little situation in D.C. where he was living. He had a stroke and he was a nice gentleman. My mother, she was crazy about him. She kid him. Said, "I remember you used to come and sit," and he was the type of little friend in high school. He wasn't too old, but he would come at Valentine and leave a little Valentine card at the house. Going by Christmas time, leave a little box of candy, but he married his high school sweetheart. They were married for a while and they separated, divorced, whatever. He worked at the post office, supervisor. He was a very, very nice gentleman. | 27:49 |
| Sonya Ramsey | That's the first boyfriend you had, married someone else from your high school? | 28:32 |
| Estelle Graham | He didn't marry. | 28:32 |
| Sonya Ramsey | Oh, he didn't marry. | 28:32 |
| Estelle Graham | He never married. It was like a few years after. Well, when he became ill, he had to go on the kidney machine. It was real nice. I think about how nice my life's been. I was at work and somebody came and somebody wanted to see me and I was trying my best figure out who it was. I went to see who it was, and so this was the high school friend of mine. And I had heard about him not being well and he said, "You know, I've been thinking about it. I would like for you to meet somebody," and the first thing came in my mind, it was maybe the woman in his life, whatever. So he introduced me to two of his sons. One was like nine and the other one was 12 and he wanted me to meet the two fellows. Oldest child looked just like, and I thought that was nice. | 28:41 |
| Estelle Graham | And then he would sometimes come and pick me up but all the while he was letting me know he had real bad kidney problems. He had to go on the machine and all. A friend of mine, a girlfriend of ours and he, they were on the same— Lot of times, have to go to the doctor together to be on the machine wherever they would go. And we talked about it all the time. He asked me one thing to do to come to this film, you know? I told you he was a member of Ebeneezer, and he'll call me at night and we'd talk and all and it was just— It was such a full film that all through his little illness, we talked nice. We never mentioned things about the past or whatever, that I felt good to know that we had that little friendship mostly over the telephone his last days. | 29:37 |
| Estelle Graham | And when I went to the film, she went with— Now I'm telling you the truth, it was the saddest film I've ever been to. There was so many of us ladies moaning. We all remember. I don't know what that is, and sometimes I think I need to call the fire department, see if there's something down in that chimney down in there. Sometimes, honey, I try to— I think it's so nice that he would call me at night from the hospital. My brother was in a automobile accident. I went to see him. It so happened that I didn't know he was in the hospital until the night I went to see my brother and he was down the hall from him. I would visit him. | 30:31 |
| Estelle Graham | I always respect people for things. As nice that people have been to me in life, I try to reciprocate as simple as I can without a thing there. Those things [indistinct 00:31:32] and I think about it, honey. Lord's been good to me. My little home life, my little love life and a little thing and now I'm old, man. I'm happy, satisfied. | 31:12 |
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