Johnny Allen (primary interviewee) and Ida Allen interview recording, 1995 June 20

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Blair Murphy	Could you both state your full names and your date of birth and where you born?	0:02
Ida Sumter Allen	My name is Ida Bell Sumter, been my maiden name. And I was born 1914. 12th day of September.	0:08
Blair Murphy	Where were you born?	0:29
Ida Sumter Allen	I would say Camp Savannah. Camp Savannah out in the country section there, across the roadway.	0:34
Blair Murphy	And you?	0:38
Johnny Allen	My name is Johnny Allen. J-O-H-N-N-Y Allen. I was born June 29th, 1905. [indistinct 00:00:54] called it Bloomdale [indistinct 00:01:11].	0:54
Blair Murphy	All right. And if you could, could you just tell me a little bit about your home when you were young?	1:14
Ida Sumter Allen	Yes. My mother, remember her well. She was Henrietta. And my father—Henrietta something [indistinct 00:01:36]. She wasn't McCoy but she was something [indistinct 00:01:39]. And he was Fortune something. And then the 12 children.	1:21
Blair Murphy	And what was it like growing up? You lived way out in the country.	1:50
Ida Sumter Allen	Lived fully country life. Country life. No city at all. Fully country life, where I was raised, out on a farm. We raised our food. We raised most of that. We worked on the farm.	1:54
Blair Murphy	What did you grow?	2:11
Ida Sumter Allen	We'd grow cotton, corn, peas, sweet potatoes, butter beans, although string beans [indistinct 00:02:23]. Cows, and cows that give milk and butter, stuff like that. Hogs. Pigs and stuff and that was all meat. That's why I say we lived fully country. We didn't go to the store for many things more than sugar and coffee. Most other things, we raised that.	2:13
Blair Murphy	Did your family own that land?	2:47
Ida Sumter Allen	No. He was renting. He was renting it. We used to raise sugarcane, which is [indistinct 00:03:01]. You don't see much of that growing now, to mix different syrup. Used to have a lot of different things like that. A lot of time, these children drinking Kool-Aid and soda now. We drank, which was molasses water, and that would taste real good. We had a well, a deep well. Had to bucket draw, pull it up and whatnot, and that water was cool. We'd pour it over molasses and stir it up. It tastes just like the Kool-Aid tastes now with ice in it, because we wasn't used to this real cold stuff. And we were healthy. 12 children grow. We have six boys and six girls.	2:49
Blair Murphy	Where were you in the order?	3:42
Ida Sumter Allen	Let me see. Let me see. It was Benjamin, James, Mary, Mariah, Sandy, Gertrude, Leroy, and Lou Ethel, then I come.	3:47
Blair Murphy	So, you were real young?	4:12
Ida Sumter Allen	Yes. I mostly used to stay at the house, I had to cook, at around 13. Mostly cooked. The rest of them worked on the farm. And the younger one is my baby brother and sister, which is Wilhelmina and Fortune Junior. I had to take care of them at the house and cook. Have the meals ready when they came in at 12:00—	4:12
Blair Murphy	Everybody else came in.	4:40
Ida Sumter Allen	Yeah. I had an all day routine I had to do.	4:40
Blair Murphy	And your mother worked on the farm as well?	4:48
Ida Sumter Allen	Now my mother, she worked on the farm some, but she mostly used to be home.	4:56
Blair Murphy	With the kids.	5:06
Ida Sumter Allen	Because she was a big heavy woman, near 300 pound and whatnot. She used to be home all day. But most of the children went with father and worked with the farm, keep up, keep that up.	5:06
Blair Murphy	Okay. And what about you? Where'd you grow up?	5:17
Johnny Allen	I grew up down there. I grew up a little bit on my grandfather's place, and my grandfather, that's where I know myself, because [indistinct 00:05:33] my grandfather's place. And then we lived there, and come up near Richfield, and we stayed there awhile. Just move around. See, my parents died real young. My father died in 1919. My mother died in 1926, and there were six of us. We was born [indistinct 00:05:33] I was the next oldest, and then she [indistinct 00:05:33] my younger brother. And my oldest brother leave home, maybe a couple years before my mother died, and when she died, then I worked and provided for the rest of us. We grew up pretty good. We moved in with a family that was very good to us. Of course, we had to work on the farm to be able to stay at that house. We had to work on the farm for that.	5:25
Johnny Allen	It was very good for us, and that's what helped us to grow up and be men and women. We worked hard [indistinct 00:06:18]. Didn't have no grown up to speak for us. Of course, we thought it was all right. I don't have any complaints about growing up [indistinct 00:07:20]. We managed all right, and I leave the farm in 1928 and come to Sumter and find me a job. Because we couldn't make it on the farm. I've been job working ever since. I never had [indistinct 00:07:04]. I didn't know nothing but work. One job coming to a close, somewhere else [indistinct 00:07:04]. I think I worked [indistinct 00:08:09] from 1928 until '69, I retired.	6:12
Blair Murphy	That's a blessing.	7:12
Johnny Allen	You see, that's a blessing by the Lord. By me being smart and do my work, and not hide around and just looking for payday. In other words, a White guy told me that [indistinct 00:08:22]. If you keep a job, try to do a little bit more [indistinct 00:08:22].	8:16
Blair Murphy	They'll think well of you.	8:21
Johnny Allen	Yeah. So, I got along real good. I had a good life coming up, by the help of the Lord.	8:21
Blair Murphy	Do you remember, either one of you, going to school when you were little?	8:21
Ida Sumter Allen	Yes. I go to school. I go to school, we used to call it Pinehill. We used to go four months. That's all [indistinct 00:09:10] because we were farmers, because you start planting. You didn't go to school until it was about last part of October, November until the crop was just about gathered, especially the cotton. And then we'd go to school through there until time to plant. Then, March and then to start for the farm, we'd go to school along with the brothers who had to plow and tile the soil [indistinct 00:09:39].	8:24
Ida Sumter Allen	Girls could go on schooling until 15, and they used to do—A lot of things you had to do by hands then. They didn't have machine to do it, like scatter what you call compost now. Call it compost now. We used to call it manure, because we used to take it out the stable. Usually you had to scatter that up and down the row. And then the fertilizer go on top of that to plant the crop. Well, these girls, then we had to stay home from school then to help put that down. After that, then you go back to school again. And then as soon as it crop up, the school would close out about the 1st of May, because you'd start then the chopping cotton and whatnot, and go on that. And that's just how it go.	9:39
Blair Murphy	So you had to walk to school?	10:30
Ida Sumter Allen	Yeah. Walk about three to four miles, be there by 9:00. Leave home about 7:00 in the morning to get there by 9:00.	10:31
Blair Murphy	Wow.	10:42
Ida Sumter Allen	Which, we'd enjoy it because it was just a road full of Black children. We enjoy each other. We'd look for the different road where they're coming in, until we get on that one highway going to the school, then we'd get together and go. And we had fun.	10:44
Blair Murphy	So, it was a big group of you walking—	11:05
Ida Sumter Allen	Yeah, go together. We didn't fight. No fighting and carrying on like children now. We was glad to see each other. Try to help each other. Help them carry their books. The little ones had to walk too. We'd help along with the little ones, catch them by the hand. It was a good life and I learned well. Just because, see my real mother died. I was in school two years and she died.	11:06
Ida Sumter Allen	Then see after, my father married a second time, and she was just like my mother. Now, she learned me most everything I know. This is my stepmother. She'd give me how to do my domestic work and stuff like that, and take care of children and stuff. She taught me that. I always give her that place. She was just as good as any mother. All the little badness we would do, she was so good, she wouldn't tell our father, we would get a whipping. She was a kind of young woman, and we got along with her. We did get along fine.	11:39
Blair Murphy	That's good.	12:09
Ida Sumter Allen	Had a good life. Then after marriage, she still was a mother. After I gave birth to my children, she would come and stay with me a month. Wash, keep house and cook for me, and then she would go back. She'd put me on my own and she would go back. I had a good life. I have enough now. The worst I would say suffering through segregation, whatnot, was in World War II. Really, when that war lasts so long, but that's about 12 years and I had children. I had four children in that time and food was scarce. I wasn't on no big farm.	12:20
Ida Sumter Allen	Then I had to go to the store for a lot of things which we couldn't raise on the farm, because he just start—My husband just started over again for the farm after he come from the factory, so it was a little tougher on me then, because a lot of things they put on the shelf and they say they're going to have it on there tomorrow. You get there, all off the shelf, this is a clean shelf. But then you had a family that you had to feed. That's about the toughest time going through that, and segregation didn't make that. Just the economy made that, because they feed the soldiers. They feed the soldiers. Somehow, I know raised up children that were healthy. We did the best with what we had. And they stayed fat and happy.	13:08
Blair Murphy	So, did they only have certain kinds of food available during the war?	13:58
Ida Sumter Allen	Well, you see, the same food now what's on the shelf, but now that be the different variety what they got on the shelf now. It's common things [indistinct 00:14:11] salt meat, you couldn't find that. String beans, they sell that. And you'd go there and [indistinct 00:14:18] a lot of things they're keeping underneath the counter.	14:03
Blair Murphy	My mother would say that they didn't have butter during the war. They had margarine—	14:24
Ida Sumter Allen	You had a lot of margarine. But see the one thing, always I was blessed with, after marriage, we owned cows. So, we had butter and milk for my children.	14:28
Blair Murphy	Okay, so you didn't have to worry about that.	14:37
Ida Sumter Allen	So, we didn't have to buy that. We always had that, until all of them got grown like that. And toughest time, along when the six boys was in school one time, it was a little rough then. Boys is rough on clothes and whatnot, and then you couldn't buy clothes for little boys from the store. I had to learn to sew, make pants and shirts for them to go to school.	14:42
Blair Murphy	Because it was available?	15:12
Ida Sumter Allen	No. No help. No way you could get out of this. Your wrists [indistinct 00:15:24] and the knowledge you had [indistinct 00:15:25]. It was a little rough but I didn't give up. I didn't give up. I always had hopes, but [indistinct 00:15:33] changes, there's going to be changes. Sure enough, it was. And after that, after the peace, [indistinct 00:15:42] and then my baby start the school. He was six years old, then that gave me a chance, I can do some domestic work. I started out. I worked at Shoreville. It wasn't Shore there. This was an army base then, out there. I worked there about 10 years back, kind of helped [indistinct 00:16:10] because the children was in school, then I didn't have to stay—	15:16
Blair Murphy	Stay home.	16:11
Ida Sumter Allen	I'd be back. And then he was working at night. When I was at work, he was home. He'd go to work in the evening, and that time, I was on my way back. So, that's the only way to keep them together, the six boys together, so it wasn't so tough. I would say we were wonderful blessed.	16:12
Blair Murphy	Yes. That's [indistinct 00:16:32].	16:31
Ida Sumter Allen	I know many friends of mine cannot say that. [indistinct 00:16:35].	16:32
Blair Murphy	How many children do you have?	16:34
Ida Sumter Allen	I had six boys, and I have five living now.	16:37
Blair Murphy	What do you remember about World War II?	16:43
Johnny Allen	After World War II, you see—World War II began [indistinct 00:16:55] 1941, that's when the United States went over to the war. And President Franklin D. Roosevelt was president then. I bet you've heard of him.	16:48
Blair Murphy	Yeah.	17:09
Johnny Allen	Had he, the 7th of December and 11th December, tore everything down. Start over again. Closed the automobile [indistinct 00:17:28] factory down, Ford, General Motors, stopped them from making cars. They were making airplanes. Then he shipped stamps, a stamp book, according to how large your family was, you'd get the stamps. You could choose.	17:26
Blair Murphy	You only get a certain amount.	17:51
Johnny Allen	A certain amount. And the only time you could get it when it was available, see?	17:52
Blair Murphy	Mm-hmm.	17:56
Johnny Allen	But I was fortunate by working with a big group of men, and we just wanted to [indistinct 00:18:10]. Some of the Black men had a little privilege, working in the grocery stores and places on the weekends, see?	17:59
Blair Murphy	Why would they have privilege?	18:22
Johnny Allen	What I mean, they had privilege because they could work in the stores, work behind the counter. See what I'm talking about?	18:23
Blair Murphy	Uh-huh.	18:28
Johnny Allen	So, they had a little privilege, and sometime I'd be talking to them, and they'd go there Saturday morning and start working, or some of them would be in the meat market. Some of them would [indistinct 00:18:44] and they would fix up a little [indistinct 00:18:47]. And then when I'd go in there and pick it up, they'd tell me, they'd have one or two Black people at the checkout counter, and then they had some White. They'd tell me don't go to the White, go to the Black one. Because the White one will look at it and say, "Well, this out to be more than this." They put the price on it, see?	18:30
Blair Murphy	Uh-huh.	19:05
Johnny Allen	So, I got along real good. I used to go out to the farm, people were raising hogs and things, before I start farming and pick up meat. Stuff like that.	19:12
Blair Murphy	They'd just give it to you?	19:16
Johnny Allen	No. I had to buy it.	19:20
Blair Murphy	Buy that.	19:20
Johnny Allen	Yeah. I had to buy it. [indistinct 00:19:23].	19:20
Blair Murphy	It wasn't expensive.	19:20
Johnny Allen	No. And to me, a lot of hard times that people put on the White man, didn't belong on the White man. Just like now. See people put a lot of hard times, but you see people sitting down depending on the government to feed them and pay their rent. Young women, you know? Having babies just to get on welfare. You see what I'm talking about?	19:29
Blair Murphy	People didn't do that stuff—	19:50
Johnny Allen	No. We didn't have that. We didn't have no welfare back then. President Roosevelt established something, and the White man—If it's a White man living in the community farming, they would give the stuff to him and give him privilege to dish it out, see?	19:55
Blair Murphy	So he'd be in charge of the program—	20:13
Johnny Allen	Yeah, in charge. And he would sometimes have people to work for him in order to get it. You see what I'm talking about?	20:15
Blair Murphy	Mm-hmm. He would force you to—	20:22
Johnny Allen	[indistinct 00:20:22]. Which is why I'm saying people blame the White man for everything, but see, they just depend on the White man. You see what I'm talking about? Just like the children depend on their parents. When they get grown, if the parents kick them out, then they ought to say, "Well, I'm grown. I need my own place. I need to manage my own money, and I need to learn how to protect myself." So, they ought to be glad to get out, see?	20:22
Blair Murphy	Mm-hmm.	20:53
Johnny Allen	With me now, everything's all right. I know I have stamps. I know I couldn't get nothing without stamps. And they would issue a stamp for gas, and would give your stamp. It's like with the [indistinct 00:21:17] and they would give you extra stamps to put gasoline to go back and forth to work, you see?	20:58
Blair Murphy	Mm-hmm.	21:23
Johnny Allen	Things wasn't bad as people think it was.	21:25
Ida Sumter Allen	It's one thing to be more safer. You didn't have to worry. You could [indistinct 00:21:35] your children home and your children was safe there. There was a community and neighbor children, you didn't have to worry. That child [indistinct 00:21:46] your mama say if you [indistinct 00:21:47] you stay home. Those children stayed and played right around in their yard until their parents, if they're working somewhere, they come back.	21:29
Blair Murphy	You didn't have to worry—	21:54
Ida Sumter Allen	You didn't have to lock up the doors and whatnot. No such thing as no screen doors then. It wasn't nothing but doors and windows hanging out open. It was more free, I'll tell you the truth. It was a better life than it is now. It's more suffering now, because I can't walk out to go nextdoor unless I turn the key. And I could go to church all day Sunday, pull the door. I go to the store and pull the door, and the doors are going to stay.	21:55
Ida Sumter Allen	[indistinct 00:22:31] I had a latch on the door. They had a string through there, to push out a hole to go through there, and you'd pull that latch up and it'd drop back down behind something like that. And [indistinct 00:22:47] lock been on that door. When you come back, you pull the string and that come up. You're going in the house, and everything is there. People was honest, and love. The love was back then. This love was back then.	22:29
Johnny Allen	I didn't get a chance to talk [indistinct 00:23:04].	23:01
Ida Sumter Allen	You have love.	23:04
Johnny Allen	[indistinct 00:23:07].	23:04
Blair Murphy	Okay. I want to hear about that too.	23:07
Johnny Allen	My parents was real educated. My father graduated from [indistinct 00:23:17]. My father graduated from [indistinct 00:23:21]. My mother [indistinct 00:23:22] graduation. I think they got married before she finished [indistinct 00:23:26].	23:09
Blair Murphy	Finished.	23:10
Johnny Allen	And that was a great help to us in trying to learn, see?	23:27
Blair Murphy	Mm-hmm.	23:29
Johnny Allen	I went to school until I got up to maybe about fifth or sixth grade. I did well [indistinct 00:23:47]. I could write and I could read. I could read and mathematics was my thing. I can do about as much adding up and subtracting in my head as I could with a pencil. Sometimes at church, they'd be figuring up something and someone might ask, "How much is that?" Before the one with the book and pencil figured out, I would tell them out of my head.	23:48
Blair Murphy	That's not me.	24:17
Johnny Allen	But, like I said, the Lord was good to me. I got along good at work. And most everywhere I worked, people would respect me because I had a little knowledge, you know? And there's one thing you have to do, is to learn how to get along and treat people, just because maybe they put you over four or five men, you don't have to be kicking them around and roughing them around, and things like that. Just talk to them like that and you can get what you want done, done. So, I got along real good. Real good. I didn't have a chance to finish school after my father died, but I took advantage of what chance I had. I'll put it that way.	24:19
Blair Murphy	When the segregation and everything started happening, was there some positive aspects to that?	25:17
Ida Sumter Allen	Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It was [indistinct 00:25:28]. You'd go in the store to buy anything, whatnot, you could be there, standing with your stuff there but if the White come in, they wait on the Whites first.	25:25
Blair Murphy	They still do that sometimes.	25:47
Ida Sumter Allen	Yeah. And you can see it coming back. Gradually, you see it coming back now, gradually. That didn't worry me, because see, I've been through it. A lot of people throw the stuff down and walk on out the store, but I don't do it. I say well, change is going to come. I didn't know how to live this long to be 81, [indistinct 00:26:07] 81, to see the changes. I enjoy the integration. I enjoy it, but our children went wild.	25:48
Blair Murphy	Do you think it was just people in general, or just the Black children?	26:22
Ida Sumter Allen	No, but our Black children got more wild because they started mixing with the White, and they learned so much. They learned so many different low, dirty things that Black people didn't do when we was coming up. You see, I worked among them, and I know their children were mischievous. Yeah. I worked. I worked among them, and I know [indistinct 00:26:53]. And I said then, what happened, most of my children was just about grown where I could talk to them and how and what. But the younger children here now, they just think what a White child say is right. It's a lot of them, they're brainwashed. A lot of kids I've talked to. I have had some that said, "I wish I was White." I said, "Don't ever say that."	26:27
Blair Murphy	People didn't think like that before?	27:17
Ida Sumter Allen	I said, "Don't ever say—" When we were coming back up, we didn't think nothing like that. Really loved the Black. When the White come, was an insurance man or doctor or whatnot, and that was that. We didn't see them no more.	27:19
Blair Murphy	Mm-hmm. You kind of lived just separately.	27:36
Ida Sumter Allen	Yeah. We were living completely separate. Separate. And the White children, the school they were going to, they used to drive a buggy and they ride to school. We [indistinct 00:27:50] walking to school, unless our parents take us on a wagon or something like that, rainy days or something like that, too wet for them to do any field work. We didn't worry about the Whites. How the children now let that burden that's come down on there about—I tell [indistinct 00:28:11] that's why a lot of our children in trouble.	27:37
Blair Murphy	Mm-hmm. Because they're so worried about—	28:13
Ida Sumter Allen	Mm-hmm. Think they're above. I say, "You just be thankful for who you are and your parents. Look at your parents." Because a lot of them don't look at their parents.	28:14
Johnny Allen	I didn't have that problem.	28:25
Ida Sumter Allen	A lot of these children don't look at their parents.	28:28
Johnny Allen	I didn't have that problem. You'd see a White in a store buying something, and if they go over there to wait on the White, I tell them, "Hey, I've been here waiting before them." I never was afraid. I always would speak up [indistinct 00:28:51]. I never had that problem. And see, it's like the Black children and the White children. It's in general, the Whites just as bad as the Blacks. You see what I'm talking about?	28:30
Blair Murphy	Yeah.	29:06
Johnny Allen	Ain't no different. You can go out to the prison, you find as many White out there as there is Black, or maybe more White men. You see what I'm talking about?	29:06
Blair Murphy	Yeah.	29:15
Johnny Allen	But I didn't have any trouble. I know my wife and I [indistinct 00:29:25]. I started saying my wife and I went in the store one time and some little White punk called me a boy.	29:18
Blair Murphy	I want to hear about it. I want to hear about it.	29:31
Johnny Allen	Yeah. I bet when I got through with him, he wouldn't call me—When I come out, the wife say I made a scene. I tell her, "You better be glad you with me, because I'd have knocked that punk in the mouth if you wasn't with me." You see what I'm talking about?	29:41
Blair Murphy	Yeah.	29:45
Johnny Allen	One thing about me, I wasn't afraid of White people. They didn't look no different to me.	29:47
Blair Murphy	No.	29:52
Johnny Allen	On my job, I didn't pay White people no attention. If they talked to me negative, I might curse them out. See what I'm talking about?	29:54
Blair Murphy	Mm-hmm.	30:01
Johnny Allen	A White guy told me one time, he said the best way to get along on a job is don't give a so and so. Once people find out you don't care, and you speak your mind, they'll handle you with gloves.	30:01
Blair Murphy	Mm-hmm. Give you respect.	30:23
Johnny Allen	Yeah. They'll respect you. They might not like you but they'll respect you.	30:24
Ida Sumter Allen	Yeah. [indistinct 00:30:28] had respected me because I always kept myself in a position for them to respect me. I always let them know I was proud of who I was. I didn't want to be nobody else but who I was.	30:27
Blair Murphy	Mm-hmm. You were raised like that.	30:34
Ida Sumter Allen	Yeah. That's how I was raised. I didn't care what you have, didn't worry me. Only what I had. The honest thing I was jealous over, you couldn't beat me working, or you couldn't beat me doing domestic work, keeping my place clean, keeping my children clean healthy to go to school.	30:34
Blair Murphy	You had pride in all that.	31:04
Ida Sumter Allen	Yeah. I have that pride, and I've still got it. I've still got it. And a lot of them say, "I don't why you got so—" I say, "Well, it's just in me." God just helped me to keep it, because he knows that's me. That's just me. I said, "I'm going to pray to God let's keep it this way until I die." I don't let nothing burden me down. I sit out on that front porch and I feel just free as I could be. I tell them I'm blessed with my six boys, and I ain't never had to went down to the courthouse, in no court. They didn't get into nothing. When they finished Lincoln High School, there were six. [indistinct 00:31:49] we were poor. We can't send nobody to college. Five went and served. And that's how when they come back, then they went to different techs and got their training, electricity and working the telephone company and different things there, and supervisor at a grocery store. They went to school and learned that after they—	31:06
Blair Murphy	They went to—	32:11
Ida Sumter Allen	—on their own.	32:11
Blair Murphy	Mm-hmm.	32:11
Ida Sumter Allen	See, [indistinct 00:32:15] mama send so and so, I let them know [indistinct 00:32:17] we wasn't able to send them. Because we couldn't send six, we know that.	32:16
Blair Murphy	They were real close?	32:22
Ida Sumter Allen	Yeah.	32:24
Blair Murphy	In age.	32:25
Ida Sumter Allen	The first one was very close. The three was about three years apart, but the other was very close. Today, they got a clear conscious [indistinct 00:32:36] we didn't done no more for one than we did for the others. Another thing that I was concerned about, because I know sometimes you can put one child a little further because he's probably a little smarter. Then you make the other one back up, but we didn't do that.	32:25
Blair Murphy	Tried to be fair.	32:58
Ida Sumter Allen	Yeah. They always on the level, [indistinct 00:33:02] had a different mind. And different knowledge. And that was [indistinct 00:33:10]. Because see, I grew up in a large family and I was well educated to that.	33:00
Blair Murphy	Your father and stepmother were fair?	33:18
Ida Sumter Allen	Yeah. Uh-huh. Yeah. And they [indistinct 00:33:27] take care of us. We didn't have to worry about it. They see that we had food and shelter over our head, a place to stay. And cared for, and been warm through the winter and whatnot, making quilts and cutting wood and having good, big fire, in front of that chimney, mostly a fireplace then.	33:22
Blair Murphy	Could you tell me about making quilts? I don't know that much.	33:44
Ida Sumter Allen	Yeah. I used to make a lot of them in my first marriage. But yeah, the scraps of leftover material and whatnot, then I used to go and buy the bung. A scrap thing from the store. Then these ladies, [indistinct 00:34:05] starting having children, we would piece up, put them together, then put them in this long strip. Then after, we sewed it all together, until we'd get it wide enough for a quilt. And then we'll go to one house, visit, and then we'd put it down on the floor. We'd get the lining, get the cotton and we'd pat it out and fix the cotton on it. Then pat it out, glue it onto that, then sprayed the top over it. Then we'd get out and [indistinct 00:34:33]. Get on our knees on the floor and [indistinct 00:34:34] and all like that. And then we'd roll it on an iron board or long board we used to have.	33:48
Johnny Allen	Excuse me.	34:41
Blair Murphy	Certainly.	34:41
Ida Sumter Allen	Long ironing boards. And then we'd be together, then we'll start making a little—	34:49
Johnny Allen	I don't know if I was any help or not.	34:51
Blair Murphy	No. You can come back.	34:54
Ida Sumter Allen	And then we'd start sewing the quilt until we get it together. [indistinct 00:35:03] go to one another house and help and do things like that. It's like the children, like one gets married. They know what we had to do [indistinct 00:35:16] whatnot. We'd bake cake, make quilts, and give them, stuff like that. Buy dishes [indistinct 00:35:25] and go on like that. This was a family tie back then. You know what they need. This was happy, and now I tell you the truth, you see the mothers so far apart now. And that's the only problem with the kids.	34:55
Blair Murphy	There's no community—	35:43
Ida Sumter Allen	No communication with mothers back then like that. I mind a lot of mothers' children, because they was working, and I had children, I had to stay home. Their little children come with their little sandwich and they'd stay with me until their mother knock off of work, stay and play with my children, under the tree shade. [indistinct 00:36:04] their mother come and pick them and go. But now, you can't get nobody to do that. So jealous. I'm never jealous. I said [indistinct 00:36:14]. If God intended for me to have it, I'm going to get that, and nobody else is going to get it but me. That's sure enough.	35:44
Blair Murphy	Yeah. So people could depend on each other a lot.	36:21
Ida Sumter Allen	Yeah. And they could be cared for too, not ill treated. They'll treat your children like how they treat their own. If they get sleepy, the other kids didn't get in the bed. They got a big quilt and spread it out on the floor, they're supposed to lay down on the floor and sleep. Have their nap. Then they'll wake up and whatnot, then they'll have their lunch. They go back outdoors and play. Happy. It's hit me know to see just how far our Black race changed from [indistinct 00:37:04]. That's what hurt me. Because really, some of our race really try to be White.	36:22
Blair Murphy	Mm-hmm. And you think that started with integration.	37:13
Ida Sumter Allen	Yeah, and getting the jobs, paid a little more. They thought they were above the others who didn't have education or whatnot to get into this place or whatnot. What work, a lot of work to do, that all remember your inheritance, I'm a Negro. Always remember that. I don't care how bright you is, your one parent's Black, the other's White, you a Negro. I went to school with them. I was raised up with a lot of them. See, that's why I was educated to that. That's why I never did think they were more than I was.	37:19
Blair Murphy	There were a lot of mixed children in—	38:01
Ida Sumter Allen	Yeah. Plenty of mixed children back then. [indistinct 00:38:05].	38:02
Blair Murphy	The women.	38:05
Ida Sumter Allen	The women, them is the cook. Most [indistinct 00:38:25] not the field, it's the cook. [indistinct 00:38:25] that's their friend. And a lot of them back at that time wasn't married. Most of them the White guys wasn't married. They wasn't married like they is now. So, that's the reason why the races got so mixed up. That's really how it got so mixed up [indistinct 00:38:38].	38:08
Blair Murphy	They did that from slavery.	38:40
Ida Sumter Allen	Yeah, yeah. [indistinct 00:38:43]. It all mostly [indistinct 00:38:45] slavery. It just wasn't selling. It just wasn't selling. But a lot of times if you had no place to stay, if you had to get a house on the place or whatnot, you had to [indistinct 00:38:58] because you couldn't go nowhere else. Because if the White over there got a plantation, the big land, he got tenant house and stuff over there, if you left this man, he want to know your reason. [indistinct 00:39:13] just like they is today.	38:52
Blair Murphy	Yeah. They [indistinct 00:39:15].	39:14
Ida Sumter Allen	They always stick together, and our people can't see that.	39:17
Blair Murphy	Yeah, and we do the same thing.	39:18
Ida Sumter Allen	Uh-huh. We need to stick together and everything would be better because [indistinct 00:39:29]. I think our children would learn and respect education more. Because a lot of our parents, [indistinct 00:39:43] a lot of them to hear about the teacher, she was this, that because teachers, I know [indistinct 00:39:48]. Don't tell the child that. You know when the teacher didn't have no education. I said don't brainwash them with that. You know what I always used to tell my children?	39:20
Blair Murphy	Mm-hmm.	39:59
Ida Sumter Allen	If they say [indistinct 00:40:02]. The teacher got her education, you got to get yours.	40:00
Blair Murphy	Mm-hmm. You respect that.	40:05
Ida Sumter Allen	All the respect. Respect them. They're trying to teach you and learn you, and one day, you can step in the same shoes they do. But if you rebel, how you going to learn? If you're mean to the teacher, or nasty to the teacher, who want to bother with you?	40:06
Blair Murphy	And your parents in the same—	40:25
Ida Sumter Allen	Parents pushing it. Not a child of mine did never come to me and say what I said about a teacher, and go out, a good many teachers, they went to, I know them when they wasn't teachers. But the more you do go to school, the [indistinct 00:40:46] you'll get it. And God blessed my six boys. They take my teaching and they went on, and them six boys is blessed. [indistinct 00:40:57] blessed them. All of them have good jobs, and make a good living.	40:29
Blair Murphy	When you were young, was church different as well or is—	40:56
Ida Sumter Allen	Yeah, yeah, yeah.	41:11
Blair Murphy	How was it different?	41:11
Ida Sumter Allen	Church was different. Church was much different. People go [indistinct 00:41:19], this is what you had. [indistinct 00:41:21] dress, it was good and clean. You washed it and ironed and starched it up and you're going on to church. If your hair was braid, you would respect [indistinct 00:41:33] some of them had their hair fixed [indistinct 00:41:37] the church, and the Lord was there. And the church was full, and they used to walk.	41:11
Blair Murphy	How far was your church?	41:46
Ida Sumter Allen	About three miles or more. We had to walk. Left in the morning and go, and we'd get back in the afternoon, the sun was getting ready to go down.	41:54
Blair Murphy	Mm-hmm. What kind of church was it?	41:59
Ida Sumter Allen	African Methodist Church. AME Church.	42:03
Blair Murphy	What was the name?	42:06
Ida Sumter Allen	African Methodist Church. I was born and raised, always been an African Methodist. And we used to walk and go to church and come back, and we'd meet one another and be glad. We had a little bag to put the shoes in, go [indistinct 00:42:23] then we had to bring the duster, wipe the dirt and stuff off. Put the stocking on with shoes and go on in the church. And we were happy. [indistinct 00:42:34] of this going on. I see so much changes and sometimes, I don't think about it now. I try to get it off my mind, put it behind me.	42:06
Blair Murphy	Because you can't—	42:45
Ida Sumter Allen	Uh-huh. I can't let it rely on me now. I hear it in this ear and it go out the next, because I know it ain't going to hold up. Church was different. Church got too much politician in it, that's what kill it.	42:46
Blair Murphy	It was more like a social and community focused—	43:08
Ida Sumter Allen	Yeah, uh-huh. Like people, social, they're going for help, you know?	43:12
Blair Murphy	Mm-hmm.	43:15
Ida Sumter Allen	Get some help with their little problem. And somebody could help them with their problems.	43:15
Blair Murphy	Yeah. You could turn to the church.	43:19
Ida Sumter Allen	Yeah. You would go to them. But now, you'll have a problem and people will get all your problems, don't help, go and talk about you, and don't help. But see, it ain't been like that back then. It ain't been like that. It's just a big change. I still go to church and whatnot. I'm the same way. I still go to church. I enjoy it and whatnot, and [indistinct 00:43:51]. Church don't get no [indistinct 00:43:56] that's a foundation. It don't get no [indistinct 00:43:56] it says that one thing is a foundation. If you're a religious person, you're a religious person. If you're a devil, you're a devil. That's all to it. That's all to it.	43:22
Ida Sumter Allen	And you know right from wrong. And that's me. [indistinct 00:44:13] the church was never going to bless the play. I always had respect for any church I've gone to. You won't see me gab, gab, gabbing, gab, gab, gabbing or looking back to see whether there's somebody [indistinct 00:44:26]. Mm-mm. I don't. Half the time, I don't know who been to church. Because that's just the way I was raised. That's just the way I was raised, and I'm still old fashioned. They tell [indistinct 00:44:44] I said yeah, and I'm going to stay [indistinct 00:44:47]. And I don't have no problem with nobody.	44:02
Ida Sumter Allen	Actually, there's one thing if you do right, that's all you got to do. Right don't wrong, and right going to stand up, and truth going to stand up. I found out that. I always told my children, you always have to tell the truth. If you can't help a person, tell me right then, no, I won't have time. Don't promise them and know you're not going to do it.	44:53
Blair Murphy	You promised something when you were growing up, it was important.	45:21
Ida Sumter Allen	Huh?	45:26
Blair Murphy	Promising someone something.	45:26
Ida Sumter Allen	Yeah. And they'd be looking out for you to come to help them, and you don't ever come out, don't ever tell people that. If you knew you're already occupied in something else, don't never tell people you can come, because you [indistinct 00:45:42] to somebody else. You can't be but one place. Now, if you can work it into another day, when I have spare time, I'll come help you. [indistinct 00:45:55] and that's many days. If you're asking somebody, let me think, let me see if I've got any plans [indistinct 00:46:03] and I'd say no, I can't but I can help you [indistinct 00:46:07] day if you want me to. And I'm still that way. I try to be truthful, but I want you to be truthful with me. I don't want to be sitting [indistinct 00:46:14] waiting for me and you to work, do something together, and I never see you.	45:28
Blair Murphy	Mm-hmm.	46:13
Ida Sumter Allen	And I think that's a lot of the problem now. Disappointment. Got a lot of people confused. Disappointment, confusion, and they call a lot of people contrary.	46:14

Ida Sumter Allen	No, woman, I's back long, long in my time to drink—	0:01
Blair Murphy	Mm-hmm—	0:05
Ida Sumter Allen	—except for going back.	0:06
Blair Murphy	Mm-hmm—	0:08
Ida Sumter Allen	They didn't drink. Cause it was a time when men drank, uh, had a most a then. They use to order it and then most to do that most Christmas and didn't have the money.	0:15
Blair Murphy	Yeah.	0:19
Ida Sumter Allen	(laughs) So it was scarce. It wasn't plentiful.	0:20
Blair Murphy	Yeah.	0:23
Ida Sumter Allen	And then you had to work.	0:24
Blair Murphy	Yeah.	0:26
Ida Sumter Allen	Used to work from sun to sun, you don't go out no hour then.	0:28
Blair Murphy	(laughs)	0:29
Ida Sumter Allen	When the sun get up where you could see, you right to go down til you can't see.	0:30
Blair Murphy	Mm-hmm.	0:36
Ida Sumter Allen	You get along, you eat and you get in your bed.	0:36
Blair Murphy	Mm-hmm.	0:38
Ida Sumter Allen	So that just was life.	0:39
Blair Murphy	Mm-hmm.	0:39
Ida Sumter Allen	Back long when I was growing up from.	0:39
Blair Murphy	So, you, when you got married you moved to Sumpter?	0:46
Ida Sumter Allen	Yeah, I moved to Sumpter.	0:48
Blair Murphy	And what was Sumpter like then?	0:49
Ida Sumter Allen	Uh, it was very nice. You know, uh. We're doing everything back in that old fashion.	0:52
Blair Murphy	Mm-hmm.	0:55
Ida Sumter Allen	You know. Horse and buggies.	0:55
Blair Murphy	Mm-hmm. What year did you move here?	1:02
Ida Sumter Allen	33? 1933. 1933 now I got married. 17 there, next summer. So we been married 61 years December coming.	1:24
Blair Murphy	That's amazing. (laughs)	1:24
Ida Sumter Allen	61 year, yeah. Leroy will be 60, next month. That's my oldest son.	1:24
Blair Murphy	That's my dad's name (laughs).	1:31
Ida Sumter Allen	Huh?	1:32
Blair Murphy	That's my dad's name.	1:32
Ida Sumter Allen	Yeah?	1:32
Blair Murphy	Leroy. Yeah, he'll be 61. He just turned 61.	1:33
Ida Sumter Allen	Yeah, uh-huh. Yeah. Yeah, so with this the only thing, uh, I tell him the only thing change in me, I just get old and get gray and get crippled. That's all.	1:37
Blair Murphy	(laughs)	1:47
Ida Sumter Allen	Cause work? I love to work.	1:47
Blair Murphy	Mm-hmm.	1:50
Ida Sumter Allen	I love to work. I could lay down and sleep and I could get right up and start right back to work.	1:51
Blair Murphy	Mm-hmm, so you did, um, you worked on the base?	1:58
Ida Sumter Allen	Yeah, I work out of the domestic work.	2:02
Blair Murphy	Mm-hmm.	2:05
Ida Sumter Allen	I worked for different, uh, you know, general, colonel, majors and what not.	2:05
Blair Murphy	Mm-hmm.	2:11
Ida Sumter Allen	And then uh, wait for them to keep the children when they went on vacation.	2:12
Blair Murphy	Mm-hmm,	2:17
Ida Sumter Allen	And a lot of time I would hear some, uh, some women be speaking about children. About Black maids and what not and taking care of children, but I said, "Might be happening now." But back a long when I was doing that type of work that they best 'ttention and care those White children ever had.	2:18
Blair Murphy	Mm-hmm.	2:39
Ida Sumter Allen	When they had a Black maid.	2:41
Blair Murphy	Mm-hmm.	2:42
Ida Sumter Allen	I act as a a living witness to that and those children didn't know it. And those, a lot of time gone, and them children wasn't smart. I'd teach the kids their lessons with my little education I had.	2:44
Blair Murphy	Mm-hmm. Made sure that they—	2:55
Ida Sumter Allen	There, that was a colonel children too.	2:57
Blair Murphy	Mm-hmm.	3:00
Ida Sumter Allen	Two little girls and a little boy. And they loved me.	3:01
Blair Murphy	Mm-hmm.	3:05
Ida Sumter Allen	And they went away and they came back, they was grown. And they come to them out there, want me to come out there. I went out to the base and they were, you ought to see them hugging me and what not. They always remember me.	3:05
Blair Murphy	Mm-hmm.	3:16
Ida Sumter Allen	'Cause I was nice to them. Just like I was to my own children.	3:17
Blair Murphy	Mm-hmm.	3:20
Ida Sumter Allen	Real nice to the. I tell them different little thing to scare them, but I ain't never had to hit them. Nothing like that. I always tell them, I was gonna leave them home. Leave them there by they self. And they was just, "You ain't going." I like, "Yeah, I'm going home." And that's all I had to say. I didn't have to touch them.	3:21
Blair Murphy	Mm-hmm.	3:34
Ida Sumter Allen	And they just sit there and be quiet. Be glad to see me.	3:37
Blair Murphy	Mm-hmm.	3:39
Ida Sumter Allen	And they little babies, they pull my clothes off me. Don't want to go to the mother and I fixing to—	3:41
Blair Murphy	You end up spending more time—	3:46
Ida Sumter Allen	Come on. Uh-huh. Yeah, cause they didn't be involved with their children. Sometime I, I said that, I don't know where you come from or what city, but I know a lot of them, best honest help they had.	3:48
Blair Murphy	Yeah.	3:59
Ida Sumter Allen	—was Black maids.	4:02
Blair Murphy	Mm-hmm.	4:06
Ida Sumter Allen	Mind those children. You didn't find no White, very few—	4:06
Blair Murphy	No White people, White—	4:08
Ida Sumter Allen	No. They didn't mind one of those children.	4:09
Blair Murphy	Mm-hmm.	4:11
Ida Sumter Allen	They didn't do it. Also, they might of get some other nationalities will come in this country. And you see a lot of them got in trouble by that, didn't pay no taxes (laughs). You hear that?	4:12
Blair Murphy	Yeah, just recently.	4:26
Ida Sumter Allen	Uh-huh. Yeah, you see a lot of them got in trouble about that because [indistinct 00:04:31]—salary, or what not to go on like that. A day's work.	4:28
Blair Murphy	Yeah.	4:37
Ida Sumter Allen	Mm-hmm. But if you stay, they, they actually like to live, they won't go to a party or stuff like New Year's or what not. Like that. I always tell them if I going to baby sit for them when they go out for New Year's, I'm going to spend the night. Cause they're not bringing me home and they done go out there and drink and get drunk.	4:41
Blair Murphy	Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.	4:57
Ida Sumter Allen	I always act like I going to spend the night. And you all can stay all night, least I know where you all is. Leave the children home. Don't make not difference.	5:00
Blair Murphy	Yeah.	5:07
Ida Sumter Allen	So, that's a- I was plain to them. I let them know who I was. I was intelligent.	5:07
Blair Murphy	Yeah.	5:16
Ida Sumter Allen	I wasn't no trash.	5:16
Blair Murphy	Mm-hmm.	5:20
Ida Sumter Allen	I let them know that.	5:20
Blair Murphy	Mm-hmm.	5:20
Ida Sumter Allen	What I was.	5:20
Blair Murphy	Mm-hmm and the were—	5:20
Ida Sumter Allen	And I didn't want nothing out of they house, but what they give to me.	5:22
Blair Murphy	They used to try to give you stuff?	5:25
Ida Sumter Allen	No, we get along real good.	5:28
Blair Murphy	Oh, okay.	5:30
Ida Sumter Allen	And they was very nice. Used to give me nice gifts and—	5:30
Blair Murphy	Mm-hmm.	5:34
Ida Sumter Allen	You know, different things are very nice to me. Cause I was nice to the children.	5:34
Blair Murphy	Mm-hmm. But you weren't like coveting their stuff?	5:40
Ida Sumter Allen	No. Uh-uh.	5:41
Blair Murphy	Okay.	5:41
Ida Sumter Allen	Mm-hmm. No, no, no, no. And you know, out of the ten years and what not, I get a little hold of them and they never speak an unpleasant word to me, a man, what not. To bring me home all hours of the night.	5:42
Blair Murphy	Mm-hmm.	6:02
Ida Sumter Allen	Cause I always tell the girls, but I said, wasn't no fly on me cause I was a neatly dressed Black woman.	6:03
Blair Murphy	Mm-hmm.	6:09
Ida Sumter Allen	Neatly dressed Black woman. I mean I never had no problem. They always had respect for me.	6:10
Blair Murphy	Mm-hmm.	6:17
Ida Sumter Allen	Mm-hmm.	6:17
Blair Murphy	That's good.	6:19
Ida Sumter Allen	But I can, I can, I can give them back. And I worked for many families. From all over the world.	6:20
Blair Murphy	So some of the families, cause they were Army families?	6:27
Ida Sumter Allen	Yeah, they, we'll all of them was so. All I worked for.	6:29
Blair Murphy	Mm-hmm.	6:30
Ida Sumter Allen	For service people from California to Carl Gordon. Just way out for them, Seattle, Washington.	6:33
Blair Murphy	So did they act differently than, than White people from around here?	6:38
Ida Sumter Allen	Yeah. Most definitely. Very nice.	6:42
Blair Murphy	Mm-hmm.	6:43
Ida Sumter Allen	Cause a lot of them, like lunch time, when the wife and children sit to the table to eat, and what not. And see with a lot of these others, the ones were around here, they didn't want you to. I didn't order these cause if I cooking for you, I don't eat before you eat. I be washing up the pots and signing get the kids clean up so I can go. I done eat. No. So, that all, we was a step ahead (laughs).	6:44
Blair Murphy	Mm-hmm (laughs).	7:10
Ida Sumter Allen	Cause I just was, uh, smart. I was always a step ahead and what not.	7:11
Blair Murphy	Mm-hmm. But the White people from different areas—	7:20
Ida Sumter Allen	Mm-hmm.	7:22
Blair Murphy	—acted differently than like—	7:23
Ida Sumter Allen	Yeah, and a lot of them when they come in, they were surprised. After they meet some of the friends here.	7:25
Blair Murphy	Uh-huh.	7:30
Ida Sumter Allen	Round supper, they were shocked and they try to ask me different things. I said, well, I didn't work for me. I had worked for somebody here, but I didn't tell them.	7:31
Blair Murphy	Yeah.	7:39
Ida Sumter Allen	Quiet is right.	7:40
Blair Murphy	Yeah.	7:42
Ida Sumter Allen	I had common sense to know that.	7:43
Blair Murphy	Mm-hmm.	7:45
Ida Sumter Allen	I tell, "Well, I ain't work for a minute because I had too many children. I had to mind my children."	7:46
Blair Murphy	Mm-hmm.	7:50
Ida Sumter Allen	I had to wash and iron.	7:51
Blair Murphy	Mm-hmm.	7:52
Ida Sumter Allen	And do the laundry and stuff like that for them. But I didn't have to work in their house.	7:52
Blair Murphy	Mm-hmm.	7:56
Ida Sumter Allen	Have to do the laundry and stuff. I always was mingling with them. You know. And get along good with, they knew who I was.	8:01
Blair Murphy	Uh-huh.	8:05
Ida Sumter Allen	Yeah. And I enjoy it.	8:05
Blair Murphy	Mm-hmm.	8:05
Ida Sumter Allen	I enjoyed it. Cause when I leaves there, I was going home.	8:12
Blair Murphy	Mm-hmm.	8:14
Ida Sumter Allen	That was it.	8:15
Blair Murphy	Did you make pretty good money?	8:16
Ida Sumter Allen	Well, no, it wasn't no too much money.	8:17
Blair Murphy	Wasn't too much money?	8:20
Ida Sumter Allen	Wasn't too much of money and it, uh, by the time they get into really to—we had just some different things going like that I, you know, I'm ready to stop.	8:21
Blair Murphy	Mm-hmm.	8:30
Ida Sumter Allen	Figuring they had to get paying me by the hour and stuff like that. You know. And most of us after that didn't work but four hours, after we stopped paying next four hours. I ain't work for none of that time.	8:36
Blair Murphy	Mm-hmm.	8:47
Ida Sumter Allen	I went back most of when, when they was going to play bridge. When they go play golf and stuff, I be there all day.	8:49
Blair Murphy	Mm-hmm.	8:55
Ida Sumter Allen	Nobody else had to be there for the whole day.	8:55
Blair Murphy	They just pay you for the day?	8:57
Ida Sumter Allen	Yeah, just pay, day, by day. It was a help to me. My husband, he was working and that little extra change, I make that and spend something on the children and he could spend you know. Otherwise, I put something in their hand and go to school.	8:59
Blair Murphy	Mm-hmm.	9:18
Ida Sumter Allen	I wasn't paid no big salary.	9:19
Blair Murphy	Mm-hmm.	9:22
Ida Sumter Allen	I think cause there wasn't no demand on no prices. We were just in for domestic work.	9:22
Blair Murphy	Mm-hmm.	9:29
Ida Sumter Allen	So when they did, we start with the social security and what not is going on like that. Well, a lot of them then, to get stripping down to about four hours.	9:29
Blair Murphy	Mm-hmm.	9:43
Ida Sumter Allen	Mm-hmm. But see, I ain't work under none of that cause it wasn't going, leave a house full of thing for me to do in four hours.	9:43
Blair Murphy	Mm-hmm.	9:49
Ida Sumter Allen	And I, I call out.	9:51
Blair Murphy	Yeah. Not going to work real hard in four hours.	9:52
Ida Sumter Allen	Yeah, I'd rather stay all day and do what I need to do. I had to wash and iron and what not, take care of the children, I got time to do that. And rest a little bit too.	9:54
Blair Murphy	Mm-hmm.	10:05
Ida Sumter Allen	But four hours, you just running just like a top.	10:06
Blair Murphy	The whole time.	10:08
Ida Sumter Allen	Uh-huh.	10:08
Blair Murphy	Mm-hmm.	10:08
Ida Sumter Allen	So I didn't, and then the attention.	10:11
Blair Murphy	Mm-hmm.	10:13
Ida Sumter Allen	It's attention.	10:14
Blair Murphy	Uh-huh.	10:15
Ida Sumter Allen	Try to work and try to see the children and stuff like that. I come out that.	10:15
Blair Murphy	Yeah.	10:15
Ida Sumter Allen	Yeah, I come out.	10:18
Blair Murphy	So what, about what year did you stop?	10:21
Ida Sumter Allen	Oh—be like about the same time he did. I didn't, I had likened some quarters. I likened three quarters, you know, my social security what not. But, I don't know whenever I come out. File on his.	10:24
Blair Murphy	So like in the late 60's?	10:43
Ida Sumter Allen	Mm-hmm. Let me see, that's when he retired.	10:45
Blair Murphy	He said 69 earlier.	10:49
Ida Sumter Allen	69, that time right. Same time. I come out and he always tease me. He says, "Well you going with me. I don't know if you have to retire." I said, "Well, you the one who going to have to go home and cook for you." (laughs) So, when I had to work out, the morning, keeping my grandchildren.	10:54
Blair Murphy	Mm-hmm.	11:04
Ida Sumter Allen	Yeah, something like that. So life, life was good.	11:04
Blair Murphy	Mm-hmm.	11:04
Ida Sumter Allen	I didn't suffer.	11:04
Blair Murphy	Mm-hmm.	11:11
Ida Sumter Allen	Had some sick spells, you know. Along with raising my children and that.	11:14
Blair Murphy	So when you would get sick, would you go to—was it a White doctor that you would go to?	11:20
Ida Sumter Allen	Yeah, I had White doctors and Black doctors. I had some Black doctors too. I gone to two Black doctor- Dr. Bernie and Dr. Williams.	11:25
Blair Murphy	And they were from right around here?	11:35
Ida Sumter Allen	Mm-hmm, right here in Sumpter. So and after they died, and then I went with White doctors. There wasn't nothing but White doctors left. And they was very nice.	11:36
Blair Murphy	Mm-hmm.	11:46
Ida Sumter Allen	But, one—	11:46
Blair Murphy	Did they—	11:46
Ida Sumter Allen	The one I with now is very good.	11:46
Blair Murphy	Did, was it during segregation when you went to the White doctor or was it after?	11:50
Ida Sumter Allen	Right, and well, I reckon some during segregation.	11:54
Blair Murphy	So they had separate waiting rooms?	11:59
Ida Sumter Allen	Separate rooms, uh-huh.	12:00
Blair Murphy	And you come in separate doors?	12:02
Ida Sumter Allen	Yeah, sometimes just sit there and sit there and sit there. And go in a different door.	12:03
Blair Murphy	Mm-hmm.	12:03
Ida Sumter Allen	White had a different door. They was sitting over in there. Part in over another place, you didn't see them. You was sitting over here. Your doctor ruled this side going on. So finally we get to the end of segregation and all of us sitting in the middle. Big and long, then you just split off as you want to, but all in one place.	12:09
Blair Murphy	Mm-hmm.	12:27
Ida Sumter Allen	Now, so—	12:27
Blair Murphy	So did the doctor deliver your babies or?	12:28
Ida Sumter Allen	No, all midwives.	12:31
Blair Murphy	Midwife, she come to your house?	12:32
Ida Sumter Allen	Midwife, back home. None of my children were born at no hospital. All at home.	12:33
Blair Murphy	So most people had midwife at that time?	12:41
Ida Sumter Allen	Yeah, at that time and then after that, then the, they try to make us switch us to a, they want to condemn the midwife. They wanted us to go to the hospital. But, looked like children were more safer when they had a good midwife.	12:45
Blair Murphy	Mm-hmm.	13:02
Ida Sumter Allen	And the mother was in better health too.	13:02
Blair Murphy	Mm-hmm.	13:04
Ida Sumter Allen	With the midwife than is with the doctor. Instead of going to the hospital.	13:05
Blair Murphy	So how would a mid-wife come to know how to deliver a baby?	13:08
Ida Sumter Allen	Well see, they got their training just like our doctor do.	13:12
Blair Murphy	Oh, okay.	13:13
Ida Sumter Allen	Uh-huh.	13:13
Blair Murphy	So they would study under another midwife, or they go away to school or?	13:17
Ida Sumter Allen	Yeah, they go like, the doctors, like hospitals and stuff like that they get training. They know how to deliver the baby. What to do for the baby, how to take care of the mother and what not. It was heap more healthier mother back then.	13:21
Blair Murphy	Mm-hmm. They're trying to go back to it now.	13:36
Ida Sumter Allen	And children, and children too. You didn't find babies have live navels cause they put the band on them.	13:41
Blair Murphy	Mm-hmm.	13:46
Ida Sumter Allen	But, hospital don't do that.	13:46
Blair Murphy	So would people, when they would get sick, would they always go to the doctor or?	13:49
Ida Sumter Allen	You had to go to the doctor, three months after your pregnancy. Three months you had to go for doctor check and he watch your pressure and different things and your weight. And go on like that. Then the midwife will visit you and tell you certain things to eat. You know different things, certain things to don't do.	13:54
Blair Murphy	Mm-hmm.	14:15
Ida Sumter Allen	And go on like that.	14:16
Blair Murphy	My mother told me once that she had, um, ringworm when she was little.	14:18
Ida Sumter Allen	Yeah, uh-huh.	14:21
Blair Murphy	And her mother called in a root doctor.	14:22
Ida Sumter Allen	Mm-hmm.	14:25
Blair Murphy	Who made like teas for her.	14:25
Ida Sumter Allen	Uh-huh.	14:31
Blair Murphy	Did they have that too?	14:31
Ida Sumter Allen	Yeah, yeah. All like that. For ringworm and stuff like that. Then, the um, a lot of us would get these green walnuts. And the, rub the juice on the ringworm, natural cure.	14:32
Blair Murphy	Mm-hmm.	14:39
Ida Sumter Allen	Uh-huh. The juice out of that.	14:41
Blair Murphy	So you wouldn't always have to go necessarily—	14:42
Ida Sumter Allen	No, you didn't necessarily have to go to a doctor. Cause most of your mothers and grandmothers back in them days, in the spring, they used to go in the woods.	14:44
Blair Murphy	Mm-hmm.	14:52
Ida Sumter Allen	Just to get herbs.	14:53
Blair Murphy	Mm-hmm.	14:54
Ida Sumter Allen	And they used to come back home and they used to put it in a bottle. And uh, the one where they couldn't get some kind of white whisker to go, they put water on it. And see they use them different things to give their children.	14:55
Blair Murphy	Mm-hmm. And it worked?	15:07
Ida Sumter Allen	Yeah, didn't have to go to no doctor.	15:08
Blair Murphy	Mm-hmm.	15:08
Ida Sumter Allen	They had to go to no doctor. Just like my children. I didn't spend no money on my children when the doctor move in there. We had to go to school to get different shots.	15:09
Blair Murphy	Shots—	15:18
Ida Sumter Allen	Now, there's a time they shot at school then.	15:19
Blair Murphy	Oh.	15:21
Ida Sumter Allen	Cause um, me and the girl was talking. I said, "You know, children had better health back then that is now." That's a lot of people don't take their children down to the health department and get their treatment like they're supposed to.	15:22
Blair Murphy	Mm-hmm.	15:38
Ida Sumter Allen	But, when they go to school, these teacher will send a note to the mother, the day the doctor or the nurse going to be there.	15:38
Blair Murphy	Mm-hmm.	15:45
Ida Sumter Allen	And the children would be to school and they got their vaccinations. All that stuff right there. Child right at school.	15:46
Blair Murphy	Mm-hmm.	15:51
Ida Sumter Allen	So, that's why children so much more healthy. The older children, like my children, than children are now. Cause a lot of these children ain't get their shot.	15:55
Blair Murphy	Yeah. They slipped through the system. They don't know they—	16:02
Ida Sumter Allen	No, no. They didn't get, cause see so many young mothers and single mothers having children now, lot of them don't—	16:07
Blair Murphy	Know—	16:11
Ida Sumter Allen	—ever, they know all right, but they just don't go take them.	16:14
Blair Murphy	Mm-hmm.	16:18
Ida Sumter Allen	They just don't take them.	16:19
Blair Murphy	Mm-hmm.	16:19
Ida Sumter Allen	Then when they get to school and some of them be call, can hardly get them in school. Cause if they don't have the work. The paper work that they had they shots and stuff so they can't take them in school. So then the poor child has to get all of them different shots and stuff before they can get in school. Cause that's the law now.d	16:19
Blair Murphy	Mr. Allen? I wanted to ask you about, um, church. What you remember about church when you were real young? Like, with your family?	16:41
Johnny Allen	Uh, so you got, so I told you my family died when I was young. And I can't remember whether we, uh, joined a church before, before my parents died or not. I can't remember. But, uh, I do remember after my mother died, I'd go in, just in the church in the chapel.	16:51
Blair Murphy	Mm-hmm	17:11
Johnny Allen	I join then. I had a good church.	17:11
Blair Murphy	Mm-hmm. What was it like?	17:12
Johnny Allen	Well, my first assignment was [indistinct 00:17:28] and then, uh, 17 preachers. Of the senior class, that would be next to growing up, that's what the mission tells you.	17:25
Blair Murphy	Uh-huh.	17:26
Johnny Allen	And then, uh, I was appointed the superintendent and I stayed at that for like 30 years.	17:26
Blair Murphy	(laughs)	17:26
Johnny Allen	Nobody wanted it.	17:26
Ida Sumter Allen	Had to work.	17:26
Johnny Allen	And—	17:26
Blair Murphy	My father does that.	17:26
Johnny Allen	And I was president of the gospel choir.	17:27
Blair Murphy	Mm-hmm.	17:28
Johnny Allen	President of the [indistinct 00:17:28] board.	17:28
Blair Murphy	Mm-hmm.	17:28
Johnny Allen	Been at the trustee board. I was bored at this work. And then after I got able to sort of travel like, got out in the connection room. I was president, superintendent of the Sunday school of the district. Had about 23 or 24 churches I had to visit and make a note of my group had made the thing.	17:46
Johnny Allen	And I was president of the all winter vision and I made about seven, eight or nine trips to the conference at the village.	18:37
Blair Murphy	Mm-hmm.	18:41
Johnny Allen	That's good. That's the whole connection you know.	18:41
Blair Murphy	Mm-hmm.	18:41
Johnny Allen	I had a good church life. Just, the president of the state, the organization of the state, he's uh, limit to four years like, like the bishop. Each man was a bishop. Our former president, each year was up, first three, first three move across Virginia. So we had these urinals and you'd have to clean them.	18:41
Blair Murphy	Uh-huh.	18:41
Johnny Allen	That's the way they state meeting was. Most carry into the night. You got in there side of the morning and Saturday. You know when you might say, the government of the church, you can kind of understand the operation of the church.	18:41
Blair Murphy	Mm-hmm.	18:41
Johnny Allen	A lot of people agree about asking so much money, could cost so much money. But, they forgot, we been here, we moved in '53 and '95, six, '95. So, we been here about 43 years.	20:01
Blair Murphy	Mm-hmm.	20:04
Johnny Allen	And you came here like they [indistinct 00:20:05]. (laughs) You see what I'm talking about?	20:04
Blair Murphy	Yeah.	20:04
Johnny Allen	Now, there's a hundred or better.	20:04
Blair Murphy	Yeah.	20:04
Johnny Allen	You don't grumble about that.	20:28
Blair Murphy	Yeah.	20:29
Johnny Allen	Why you want to grumble about the church money spends just like, just like the home.	20:30
Ida Sumter Allen	Every year—	20:30
Johnny Allen	Makes no sense. You see what I'm talking about?	20:30
Blair Murphy	Yeah.	20:30
Johnny Allen	But, uh, and uh, everybody wants me in South Carolina and I nobody ever was.	20:30
Blair Murphy	Mm-hmm.	20:30
Johnny Allen	When I go to a church, you have to ask them, what do I have to do for all of them? [indistinct 00:20:56]	21:05
Johnny Allen	I, I don't run my mouth. I just talk. You learn how to talk and you learn how to do things like sitting down civil. You know. Conversation with people, listen to them talk.	21:05
Johnny Allen	Minister told me one time, he said, "Mr. Allen? You be old and most of us can't get off to go." I hear a lot of school teacher's complaining about they having such a time getting off. I tell him, "I went through school. I worked at a furniture factory." He said, "Man, I thought you were school teaching, you been a principal of a junior high school." I said, "No." But, you don't have to run your mouth and grumble anymore. Just be yourself. That's all you have to do.	21:25
Blair Murphy	Mm-hmm.	22:07
Johnny Allen	And people will recognize it. Sometimes they may just hate you, but I know, uh, White guy sitting down doing business with. And I used to do all the church's business. I tend to all the church's business and then I'd have to go downtown to tend to some business in Norfolk. I go down there and I got to go in to the theater. Whatever I had on Sunday, I'd put it on Monday. Go down there, sit down and talk—	22:07
Blair Murphy	And look your best.	22:39
Johnny Allen	Yeah.	22:40
Blair Murphy	Mm-hmm.	22:41
Johnny Allen	So, he asked me, "What kind of work you do?" I said, "I work for Willy Ferguson." He said, "Man, I thought you were doing some kind of [indistinct 00:22:53] work." Well, you know—	22:41
Blair Murphy	You present yourself that way.	22:47
Johnny Allen	Yeah, yeah, sometimes you include Christians and I be Christians. Like, if Paul could take that. This is old. My church life is here. A lot of people I did business with. The church is Allen Chapel and my name, my last name is Allen, before the church was named. (laughing) So, I told them, I said, "No, the church had that name before I got there." They said, "Well, you a good man." I said, "Well, get with the, get you a good man." But, you know people look after you and they'll report on you. Trying to say stuff. I had a good, good church. People just respect me because I respect them.	23:01
Blair Murphy	Mm-hmm. Well, thank you very much. Y'all gave me—	23:54

Item Info

Title:

Johnny Allen (primary interviewee) and Ida Allen interview recording, 1995 June 20

Date:

June 20, 1995

Creator:

Contributor:

Murphy, Blair

Description:

Name: Johnny Allen; Date of birth: 1905-06-29; Place of birth: Bloomhill, SC; Occupation(s): agriculture; factory worker; Residence: Sumter, SC
Informant ID: 1192; Informant ID: 1193; Interviewed by: Blair Murphy.

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Location:

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Language:

English

Digital Collection:

Behind the Veil

Source Collection:

Behind the Veil: Documenting African American Life in the Jim Crow South interviews, photographs, and project records, circa 1864-2011, bulk 1990-2004

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Provenance:

The David M. Rubenstein Rare Book and Manuscript Library acquired the Records of the Behind the Veil Oral History Project from the Duke University Center for Documentary Studies in 1997, 1998, 2000, and 2002.

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Limited Re-Use

CC BY-NC 4.0

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Copyright for content created by the Behind the Veil project is held by Duke University and made available to the public using a Creative Commons Attribution / Non-commercial (CC-BY-NC) license.

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Interview number: 1035
dcb5cdc7-704a-45b8-a479-c36f9dcd0d22
behindtheveil
btvct09124
ark:/87924/r4474c64d
c38fdff8-eee8-43b1-b6bf-899f932f6888

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Johnny Allen (primary interviewee) and Ida Allen interview recording, 1995 June 20

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1. Johnny Allen and Ida Allen administrative file, 1995

John Hope Franklin Research Center

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Johnny Allen (primary interviewee) and Ida Allen interview recording, 1995 June 20

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John Hope Franklin Research Center

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