Leola Williams interview recording, 1994 June 28
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Charles Houston | Microphone is working okay, Mrs. Williams. Could we start by having you state your name and your date of birth and where you were born please? | 0:01 |
Leola Davis Williams | My name is Leola Davis Williams, and I was born in Baker County. | 0:14 |
Charles Houston | And when were you born? | 0:23 |
Leola Davis Williams | When? | 0:25 |
Charles Houston | Uh-huh. | 0:25 |
Leola Davis Williams | 12th, 10th, 1919. | 0:28 |
Charles Houston | Okay. So December 10th, 1919. | 0:34 |
Leola Davis Williams | Mm-hmm. | 0:36 |
Charles Houston | Yeah. I forgot to mention that I'll be taking notes as you talk. And the reason, I mean, in addition to the recording, I'll be taking notes and I'll be taking notes to help keep me focused on what you're talking about. And so, because it helps me learn as well, okay. So I hope that's not distracting. So could you talk a little bit about your parents? You were born in Baker County, were your parents from Baker County and? | 0:36 |
Leola Davis Williams | My mother. | 1:09 |
Charles Houston | Your mother. | 1:11 |
Leola Davis Williams | All was born in Baker County, we never have left Baker County. | 1:12 |
Charles Houston | Your father too? | 1:17 |
Leola Davis Williams | Mm-hmm. | 1:18 |
Charles Houston | Okay. So as you grew up, you had lots of relatives around on both your mother and your father's side. | 1:19 |
Leola Davis Williams | Yeah, it was 14 of us. | 1:28 |
Charles Houston | 14 children. Your parents had 14 children? | 1:33 |
Leola Davis Williams | Mm-hmm. | 1:36 |
Charles Houston | And which number were you? | 1:37 |
Leola Davis Williams | I was, wait. I believe I was their. Okay now, let's see. Oh, I was the fifth one. | 1:39 |
Charles Houston | You were the fifth one. | 2:01 |
Leola Davis Williams | Mm-hmm. | 2:01 |
Charles Houston | So as you were growing up, you got to do a lot of things for the younger kids in the household? | 2:02 |
Leola Davis Williams | Yeah. | 2:11 |
Charles Houston | Yeah. So what did your parents do? I mean, where in Baker County were they living when you were born? Were you living in a town or in the countryside? | 2:12 |
Leola Davis Williams | No, been in the country all the while. | 2:23 |
Charles Houston | Okay. And what did your dad do in the countryside? | 2:26 |
Leola Davis Williams | Farm. | 2:31 |
Charles Houston | Okay. And did he own his own farm? | 2:33 |
Leola Davis Williams | No. He share what they call sharecrop. Half share. | 2:35 |
Speaker 3 | Sharecrop. | 2:40 |
Leola Davis Williams | Sharecrop. | 2:40 |
Charles Houston | Okay. And you said he half sharecropped. So that means he farmed for half of the crop? | 2:43 |
Leola Davis Williams | He got half in the company, Ichauway. He's farming for Ichauway, and they got half whatever. | 2:51 |
Charles Houston | Okay. So were you living on Ichauway? You were living on Ichauway plantation at the time? | 3:02 |
Leola Davis Williams | That's all I remember we lived. | 3:08 |
Charles Houston | Okay. | 3:09 |
Leola Davis Williams | Until later years. | 3:09 |
Charles Houston | And okay. So you were born there and you lived there until much later. I mean you were much older when you moved away. Were there many other people living nearby? I mean, were there? | 3:19 |
Leola Davis Williams | Not really where we lived, we called it the Old George House, the Old Big George House. And it won't, peoples was living maybe miles away, but nobody just didn't live right around. | 3:31 |
Charles Houston | Okay. But your family actually lived in something called the Old Big George House? | 3:50 |
Leola Davis Williams | Mm-hmm. | 3:54 |
Charles Houston | Okay. Was that a special house in some way? | 3:55 |
Leola Davis Williams | That was just, I guess the name of what they call it. | 3:59 |
Charles Houston | Okay. | 4:02 |
Leola Davis Williams | So it wasn't no, just special. It wasn't no really just real good house. Just old big house room on each side and a big hall down there, mill. | 4:02 |
Charles Houston | So it had one room on each side? | 4:18 |
Leola Davis Williams | Oh, more than one room. | 4:21 |
Charles Houston | Okay, but it's rooms on each side and a middle hallway. | 4:23 |
Leola Davis Williams | Mm-hmm. | 4:26 |
Charles Houston | Do you remember how many rooms? | 4:28 |
Leola Davis Williams | It was about four room. | 4:30 |
Charles Houston | So two on each side. Two rooms on each side and the middle hallway. | 4:34 |
Leola Davis Williams | Inside the kitchen. | 4:37 |
Charles Houston | So would you say there were three bedrooms and a kitchen and then a middle hallway? | 4:42 |
Leola Davis Williams | Yes, something like that. | 4:47 |
Charles Houston | Okay. And what kinds of crops did your dad raise? | 4:52 |
Leola Davis Williams | Oh, cotton, corn, peanuts, velvet beans, cane. Well, cane. | 4:55 |
Charles Houston | Okay. | 5:13 |
Leola Davis Williams | Sweet potatoes. Hogs. | 5:14 |
Charles Houston | Okay. | 5:15 |
Leola Davis Williams | Cows. | 5:15 |
Charles Houston | Okay. | 5:15 |
Leola Davis Williams | And. | 5:15 |
Charles Houston | Now were all of these things cash crops or were some of these things that you raised for yourself, that your dad raised for the family for? | 5:30 |
Leola Davis Williams | No, something like, well, the corn and cotton and peanuts. | 5:36 |
Charles Houston | Okay. | 5:42 |
Leola Davis Williams | Velvet beans, all that was half. But the hogs and the cows were, he just had kept about one or two or three milk cows. | 5:43 |
Charles Houston | Okay. | 5:53 |
Leola Davis Williams | Sweet potatoes and cane, that was his. | 5:55 |
Charles Houston | And the cane? | 6:03 |
Leola Davis Williams | Mm-hmm. | 6:05 |
Charles Houston | Okay. | 6:11 |
Leola Davis Williams | So that made us have, given our own meat, syrup. | 6:11 |
Charles Houston | Okay. | 6:15 |
Leola Davis Williams | And sweet potatoes. The biggest of what we ate. | 6:16 |
Charles Houston | And anything else that you needed, you bought from the store? | 6:23 |
Leola Davis Williams | Well, something like meal or corn was, see we would shell corn and shuck it. Shuck it and shell it and take it to the meal, it was a meal ground. And he didn't mostly have nothing about but something like flour, grits, and his coffee and rice, stuff like that. | 6:28 |
Charles Houston | Okay. | 6:49 |
Leola Davis Williams | Because he raised his meat. | 6:49 |
Charles Houston | And where did you buy the things that, I mean things like flour, grits, and coffee and so on? | 6:58 |
Leola Davis Williams | Newton. Right in Newton. | 7:03 |
Charles Houston | So now did you buy them, is Newton, did you buy things at a plantation store or in the town store? | 7:07 |
Leola Davis Williams | In the town store. | 7:17 |
Charles Houston | Okay. So I mean, you're actually now thinking back to the 1920s, this is back in the, say when you were a little girl, say around 10 years old? | 7:24 |
Leola Davis Williams | I probably was. | 7:34 |
Charles Houston | Oh, this is. | 7:34 |
Leola Davis Williams | A little older than that. | 7:35 |
Charles Houston | Older. | 7:36 |
Leola Davis Williams | We was, see I was born 1919 and so. | 7:36 |
Charles Houston | How old were you when you left your parents, when your parents left Ichauway? | 7:43 |
Leola Davis Williams | Well, I was unmarried. I didn't marry. | 7:48 |
Charles Houston | Okay. So you actually grew up at Ichauway, you never left? | 7:55 |
Leola Davis Williams | No. | 7:58 |
Charles Houston | Okay. | 7:59 |
Leola Davis Williams | Until I. | 7:59 |
Charles Houston | Until you got married. | 8:00 |
Leola Davis Williams | Mm-hmm. | 8:01 |
Charles Houston | Okay. And what age was that, and what year was that? | 8:01 |
Leola Davis Williams | I married, somewhere I think about 18. | 8:09 |
Charles Houston | Okay. So if you were born— | 8:18 |
Leola Davis Williams | I still halfway lived on Ichauway because the man I married, he was on Ichauway too. | 8:22 |
Charles Houston | Okay. So you got married about 1937, age 18. You were born in 1919. | 8:27 |
Leola Davis Williams | '37, because my oldest child was born in '38. | 8:33 |
Charles Houston | Okay. Now you said there were not too many neighbors around. How close were your nearest neighbors, would you say? I mean, could you see their farms from where you lived? | 8:40 |
Leola Davis Williams | No, because we had everything all around, and we had to walk to school. | 8:52 |
Charles Houston | Okay. | 9:01 |
Leola Davis Williams | But you couldn't see no neighbors until you go visit them. | 9:02 |
Charles Houston | Okay. How many acres would you say your dad farmed? | 9:07 |
Leola Davis Williams | I don't know. But he had big, big farms. I can remember when he was running about a seven horse farm. | 9:13 |
Charles Houston | Okay. And did he do that all by himself? | 9:27 |
Leola Davis Williams | Mm-mm. The children, well, when they growed up, the boys and my oldest sister, they plowed. | 9:31 |
Charles Houston | Okay. And how many boys were there? | 9:36 |
Leola Davis Williams | It was six of us. | 9:47 |
Charles Houston | Okay. And one girl. So six boys and one girl plowed. And your dad plowed? Did your mom? | 9:57 |
Leola Davis Williams | I never. Well, he plowed a little, but he'd get them started and he would leave. | 10:04 |
Charles Houston | And when he left, where would he go? | 10:12 |
Leola Davis Williams | That what we didn't know. (laughs) | 10:15 |
Leola Davis Williams | He'd just go, and I don't reckon it would be far, because he was walking. | 10:16 |
Charles Houston | Okay. I mean, he would just go and you wouldn't know where he was, but he'd come back when it was time to stop working. | 10:33 |
Leola Davis Williams | He'd come back for dinner, check supplies and things. | 10:38 |
Charles Houston | Did your dad hunt at all? | 10:43 |
Leola Davis Williams | He hunted at night sometime. | 10:53 |
Charles Houston | Okay. And what kind of hunting did he do? Do you know? | 10:58 |
Leola Davis Williams | Possum hunting and coon. | 11:06 |
Charles Houston | So he would've hunted with a shotgun? | 11:12 |
Leola Davis Williams | Mm-hmm. | 11:15 |
Charles Houston | And did he, with dogs? | 11:16 |
Leola Davis Williams | Well no, he didn't have no dogs. | 11:19 |
Charles Houston | Okay. And if he had a seven horse farm, that means you had, I mean each of your brothers and your oldest sister who plowed would've had a mule or a horse to pull the plow. And were those kept on your farm as well? I mean, you had a barn on your farm. | 11:24 |
Leola Davis Williams | A big old barn, be able to keep them in. | 11:47 |
Charles Houston | Okay. And that's where you kept all the equipment? | 11:53 |
Leola Davis Williams | Mm-hmm. | 11:55 |
Charles Houston | All right. | 11:55 |
Leola Davis Williams | And I can remember issue, we had them big old, we call them iron gray mules. | 11:59 |
Charles Houston | Okay. | 12:05 |
Leola Davis Williams | And my daddy kept them butterball fat. He saw it then, I said yeah, about more than he did us. | 12:06 |
Charles Houston | He took really good care of those mules, huh? | 12:19 |
Leola Davis Williams | Mm-hmm. | 12:21 |
Charles Houston | How did he do that? How did he keep them so butterball fat? | 12:27 |
Leola Davis Williams | Well, feed them with hay. When you pick the peanuts, you pick the peanuts and bale their hay. Hay, peanuts, and corn. | 12:30 |
Charles Houston | Okay. | 13:07 |
Leola Davis Williams | Then when it come time to gather that stuff, see we all had to work. Like I said, them velvet beans, he plant them velvet beans and corn. Mostly they choked that corn down and ooh, I hated to pick velvet beans, them things would sting you, just eat you. Then I seen him haul loads and loads and loads. | 13:07 |
Charles Houston | So you say that the velvet beans, the beans and the corn were planted together in the same field, and the bean stalks would wrap around the corn stalks and you said would choke the corn down so the corn wouldn't get very big? | 13:41 |
Leola Davis Williams | Well, it'll get big. You pull that corn, we'd had to pull the corn. And then mostly November in December, that's when we had to pick the velvet beans. | 13:54 |
Charles Houston | So did you pick the corn at a different time? The corn and the beans were in the same field, right? | 14:05 |
Leola Davis Williams | Mm-hmm. | 14:12 |
Charles Houston | And you said you picked the beans in November and December? | 14:15 |
Leola Davis Williams | In January, something like that, till we got through. | 14:19 |
Charles Houston | Okay. So you'd actually picked them when it was pretty cold. And when did you pick the corn? | 14:25 |
Leola Davis Williams | We'd pull the corn, something like October, September, something like that. | 14:35 |
Charles Houston | Okay. So you actually pulled the corn a long time before you pulled the beans, okay. And all the kids would work at harvest time? | 14:46 |
Leola Davis Williams | Yeah. | 15:00 |
Charles Houston | Now did your dad ever get any extra help, or was it just your family? | 15:00 |
Leola Davis Williams | No, we had to do it. | 15:04 |
Charles Houston | Okay. What about other household duties? I mean, there were six boys and one girl working in the field. What other work was there to be done around the farm? I mean, you didn't work in the field. Well, except during harvest time. I mean, you worked in the field at harvest time. | 15:15 |
Leola Davis Williams | We worked— | 15:30 |
Charles Houston | But you didn't plant. | 15:30 |
Leola Davis Williams | All through while they were plants. See we would be on the end picking out the peanuts, picking the sticks out the peanuts and handing the fertilizer. | 15:32 |
Charles Houston | Okay. | 15:42 |
Leola Davis Williams | And handing the corn, filling up the corn dropper with corn, and pulling up the dropper with fertilizer. We all were working now, but I just never did try to learn how to plow. | 15:42 |
Charles Houston | Okay. So in other words, it wasn't just at harvest time, you worked in the field, the other children worked in the field all the time? | 16:02 |
Leola Davis Williams | Most all the time. | 16:08 |
Charles Houston | Was chopping weeds. | 16:09 |
Leola Davis Williams | Corn and cotton. We'd go to school about from two to three days out the week and we had to work. | 16:13 |
Charles Houston | What was the school season? Say when did school begin? | 16:27 |
Leola Davis Williams | Well, January until maybe May, and then maybe September till December. We went about, I would say it was be about maybe, wait now. I know we started January and go and went before Christmas. | 16:39 |
Charles Houston | So you went before Christmas. But you also were working in the field a lot before Christmas. When you say you went to school two or three days a week, was that before Christmas that you went to school in the fall? | 17:18 |
Leola Davis Williams | Well, both times. Well, when school was going on farming and everything was going on too. But he would let us go to school from two to three days out the week, and the other days we had to work. | 17:37 |
Charles Houston | Okay, but what about in the middle of the winter, say January to May, were you all still working on the farm during those times? | 17:51 |
Leola Davis Williams | Pulling up corn stalks, pulling up cotton stalks and piling them and burning, cleaning up for getting ready for farming. | 18:00 |
Charles Houston | Okay. So you really worked in the field year round, and year round you only were allowed, your dad allowed you to go to school only two to three days a week. | 18:27 |
Leola Davis Williams | Two, that's right. | 18:36 |
Charles Houston | Okay, now what about the other kids? I mean, did they work as hard or was it up to each family? | 18:37 |
Leola Davis Williams | If they was big enough to work, they worked. | 18:42 |
Charles Houston | Okay. So all of the kids went to school only about two or three days a week. | 18:44 |
Leola Davis Williams | Now the younger one, they got a chance to go a little bit more than we did. | 18:49 |
Charles Houston | Okay. How much younger, at what age? What ages are you thinking about now? When you say the younger ones went to school more, how much more did they go to school and up until from what age to what age? | 18:56 |
Leola Davis Williams | Well, I would say the two youngest one, they did graduate, but— | 19:12 |
Charles Houston | Oh. | 19:21 |
Leola Davis Williams | We didn't get near that far. | 19:22 |
Charles Houston | Okay. And how far did the school go? | 19:28 |
Leola Davis Williams | How far did it? | 19:34 |
Charles Houston | Yeah, how many grades? What grades? I mean. | 19:34 |
Leola Davis Williams | Well. | 19:39 |
Charles Houston | How many grades? | 19:39 |
Leola Davis Williams | Long in that time, 10th you would graduate. | 19:40 |
Charles Houston | Okay. And the two youngest actually finished the 10th grade? | 19:48 |
Leola Davis Williams | Mm-hmm. | 19:51 |
Charles Houston | Okay. Was this? | 19:52 |
Leola Davis Williams | And this was just a country school out, well, we call it the Green Grove School. | 19:55 |
Charles Houston | And was that on the plantation? | 20:06 |
Leola Davis Williams | No, not really. | 20:08 |
Charles Houston | Was it in the town? | 20:12 |
Leola Davis Williams | Mm-mm. It just out of the country. | 20:14 |
Charles Houston | Okay. And do you know who paid for it? It wasn't built by the plantation. Was it built by the county? Was it the county? | 20:17 |
Leola Davis Williams | This was built by the county, I guess. We went to school. All I can remember right up here in this is that church right up there y'all turn there, the school set right over there in that corner. But we had to walk from Old George place to the school, and that was about two miles or more. | 20:27 |
Charles Houston | Okay, can you describe the school for me? I mean physically, what did it look like? What do you remember about how it looked? Both outside and inside. | 20:53 |
Leola Davis Williams | It was really some old house, and they taught in it. He had about one building, one big room, but then the grades, first grade was over here on this side. And second and third, something like that, it was about three teachers. | 21:05 |
Charles Houston | Okay. But they were all together in this one school. In this one room, there were 10 different grades. | 21:31 |
Leola Davis Williams | Well, no, because my younger sister and I, they wind up going to school in Newton, but. | 21:51 |
Charles Houston | Okay. | 21:57 |
Leola Davis Williams | Long when we were going, that's what it was, old house. | 21:57 |
Charles Houston | Okay. So when your youngest sisters went to school through the 10th grade, they actually went to a different, they also went to a different school. | 22:08 |
Leola Davis Williams | They had got a better school long in that time. | 22:19 |
Charles Houston | So do you remember how many grades there were at the Green Grove School? How far you could go in the Green Grove School? Could you go, was it through grade seven? | 22:23 |
Leola Davis Williams | You could go through eighth. | 22:32 |
Charles Houston | Okay. So in this one room then with groups of students in different places in the room, there were probably. | 22:39 |
Leola Davis Williams | Grouped off. | 22:48 |
Charles Houston | Eight grades. | 22:48 |
Leola Davis Williams | Grouped off. | 22:48 |
Charles Houston | Grouped off, okay. | 22:52 |
Leola Davis Williams | Everybody teaching. And they had it like this group will be looking over there then, but them teachers will make you look direct, everything going on. | 22:53 |
Charles Houston | Right. | 23:04 |
Leola Davis Williams | But the group over here, group over there, and the group just, but you had to look at your teacher. | 23:05 |
Charles Houston | Right. | 23:12 |
Leola Davis Williams | And listen what she was saying, it was rough though. But that's the way we had to do. | 23:12 |
Charles Houston | So how many students would you say were there? | 23:20 |
Leola Davis Williams | It should have maybe about, I would say about 40 or 50 or 60, something like that. | 23:28 |
Charles Houston | Okay. And were the students all from Ichauway or were they from? | 23:39 |
Leola Davis Williams | Oh no, different places. | 23:45 |
Charles Houston | How far away would you say they came from? I mean, not the whole county, but from other plantations as well? | 23:49 |
Leola Davis Williams | Well, no other plantation. Just from wherever they was living around in the country. | 24:00 |
Charles Houston | Okay. So from Ichauway in the countryside and elsewhere in the countryside. | 24:07 |
Leola Davis Williams | Mm-hmm. | 24:09 |
Charles Houston | Now when you say it was rough, what do you mean? I mean. | 24:09 |
Leola Davis Williams | Well, it was just walking, rainy days. If we went, we had to walk and hit big cold and we had old wooden heater. That's how we heated. That was the heat in there. And we'd had to go out and get wood and stuff, which my daddy would haul some wood sometimes. And it would rain in the schoolhouse. | 24:23 |
Charles Houston | Oh, so the roof leaked? | 24:52 |
Leola Davis Williams | Mm-hmm. And we had the outdoor toilet. | 24:53 |
Charles Houston | Okay. | 24:55 |
Leola Davis Williams | The girls had one and the boys had one. | 25:07 |
Charles Houston | Okay. And what do you remember about your teachers? Remember anything about your teachers? I mean where they were from, who they were? | 25:13 |
Leola Davis Williams | Well, they was from Newton. | 25:25 |
Charles Houston | From the town, so they weren't farming people. | 25:27 |
Leola Davis Williams | One of my teachers living now. Leola Fips. | 25:31 |
Charles Houston | Is that right? What's her name? Leola? | 25:35 |
Leola Davis Williams | Leola Douglas Fips. | 25:36 |
Speaker 3 | She and County Judge. | 25:36 |
Leola Davis Williams | Huh. | 25:36 |
Speaker 3 | And the kin of Judge Fips. | 25:36 |
Leola Davis Williams | They all, some kind of relatives like. She about the only one living, the others been there. | 25:47 |
Charles Houston | But all three of them lived in the town in Newton. You said in Newton. | 25:57 |
Leola Davis Williams | Well, now one lived in Elmodel, back here in Elmodel, Ms. Connie. | 26:01 |
Charles Houston | How do you spell Elmodel? | 26:06 |
Leola Davis Williams | E-L-M-O-D-E-L. Wait now, Elmodel. E-L-M-O-D-E-L. | 26:08 |
Charles Houston | Okay. And you said Ms. Connie? | 26:20 |
Leola Davis Williams | She was from Elmodel. | 26:23 |
Charles Houston | Okay. And was Elmodel a farming community? | 26:27 |
Leola Davis Williams | It was a little, well we, it was a store there, a grocery store. That was our little town, what we thought. | 26:37 |
Charles Houston | So it was the closest town to where you lived? | 26:51 |
Leola Davis Williams | Closer than Newton. | 26:52 |
Charles Houston | Okay. And were the teachers married? They weren't married to farmers then. Who were the husbands of the teachers? | 26:53 |
Leola Davis Williams | Well, little Fips, Paul Fips was her husband. | 27:12 |
Charles Houston | Okay. And what did he do? | 27:20 |
Leola Davis Williams | He was a carpenter. He worked and built houses and things. But Ms. Connie, she wasn't married. She didn't have a husband. Charlie Mae Singletary, she wasn't married. | 27:22 |
Charles Houston | So Carl Fips was a carpenter? | 27:45 |
Leola Davis Williams | Paul. | 27:49 |
Charles Houston | Paul, okay. And Ms. Singletary. | 27:50 |
Leola Davis Williams | She wasn't married. | 27:57 |
Charles Houston | And what was the other woman's name? Ms. Connie? | 27:59 |
Leola Davis Williams | Connie. Either Singletary, or Ms. Connie, they weren't married. | 28:02 |
Charles Houston | Okay. Now, I mean, since they weren't married, do you know whether they had come from farming families or had they lived in, they also grown up in the town. Do you know what their parents had done by any chance? Do you know about their families at all? | 28:16 |
Leola Davis Williams | Let me see, Ms. Connie, I don't know whether they was from it or not. | 28:37 |
Charles Houston | Okay. | 28:40 |
Leola Davis Williams | I don't know. | 28:40 |
Charles Houston | Okay. But they were all people who had grown up in the community. They were all local people. | 28:47 |
Leola Davis Williams | Mm-hmm. | 28:50 |
Charles Houston | Tell me about how things were in the family. I mean, what kind of responsibility did older kids have for younger kids? I mean, you were one of the older children, there were 14 children and you were the fifth one. So as an older child, did you have any responsibility for the younger ones, or were your parents the ones who took care of all the kids and took care of everything and did all the disciplining? I mean, were the older kids, act like parents toward the younger kids? | 28:57 |
Leola Davis Williams | When our mother and dad were gone, the older one had to see after. | 29:39 |
Charles Houston | Okay. | 29:43 |
Leola Davis Williams | They tried to whoop us and all. | 29:46 |
Charles Houston | Now, where would your parents go? You said when they were gone, where would they sometimes go away to visit relatives or something? | 29:51 |
Leola Davis Williams | He would be going, my mother would be, when she'd leave out the field, she would go and be cooking dinner. | 29:58 |
Charles Houston | Okay. So in other words, out in the field, when your dad would leave and your mother would leave the field to go cook dinner, the older kids would be in charge. | 30:10 |
Leola Davis Williams | Mm-hmm. | 30:19 |
Charles Houston | Okay. Could you maybe just tell me what a typical day was like? I mean, from the time you got up in the morning, say. I mean, when would the family get up? When would you go and just tell me what a typical day would be? Because I- | 30:19 |
Leola Davis Williams | Oh, the dawn of day. | 30:50 |
Charles Houston | Yeah. Well, so tell me about a typical day because I'm a city person, I don't know I what life was like on the farm, stuff that you would think I should know, I probably don't know so. | 30:50 |
Leola Davis Williams | About sunrise or something like that, we'd be up. | 31:00 |
Charles Houston | Okay. So you'd get up and eat breakfast right away? | 31:07 |
Leola Davis Williams | Mm-hmm. | 31:08 |
Charles Houston | Your mother would have breakfast ready? | 31:09 |
Leola Davis Williams | She'd have breakfast ready, we'd go on to the field. Now them boys, I've seen them hit out there in frost. | 31:11 |
Charles Houston | Okay. | 31:17 |
Leola Davis Williams | White frost out there in the field. | 31:20 |
Charles Houston | So the boys would go out first? | 31:23 |
Leola Davis Williams | Mm-hmm. | 31:24 |
Charles Houston | And I'm just curious, what would you have for breakfast? | 31:35 |
Leola Davis Williams | Sometime grits, and sometimes syrup and biscuit and ham meat, something like that. | 31:40 |
Charles Houston | Okay. | 31:46 |
Leola Davis Williams | Now just common food. We had plenty of that cause my daddy raised hogs and he killed them, and we had a smokehouse of meat. And these big barrels of syrup. | 31:52 |
Charles Houston | Where'd you get the syrup from? | 32:05 |
Leola Davis Williams | Raised the cane. | 32:08 |
Charles Houston | Oh, okay. It was cane syrup, of course. | 32:09 |
Leola Davis Williams | And then made the syrup, he had a meal. You grind the cane, and he made his own syrup. And sweet potatoes, I've known him to have about six or seven banks of sweet potatoes, and something like that. We had plenty of that to eat. | 32:17 |
Charles Houston | So you'd head out into the fields at the first light, at dawn, sometimes with a white frost on the ground. And then, so then what. I mean. | 32:38 |
Leola Davis Williams | Knock off at 12. | 32:51 |
Charles Houston | Okay, but what would you do in the morning? I mean, they go out in the field so they get the mules. I mean, just a typical day. | 32:55 |
Leola Davis Williams | Well, when they. | 33:05 |
Charles Houston | In the morning, what kind of work would you do in the morning? | 33:06 |
Leola Davis Williams | When they catch the mules and go to the field. Well, when they start, well, we would catch breakfast. When she got through with breakfast, we carry breakfast to those who out there in the field, and they would stop and eat, we'd carry water. And then we had to start doing our thing, picking out peanuts and pouring fertilizers and dropping things. And we'll be out there doing different things till time to knock off at the 12 for dinner. | 33:11 |
Charles Houston | Okay. And who took care of the animals? Did the plowers do that? The boys, and your oldest sister and your dad, they all cared for the animals? | 33:47 |
Leola Davis Williams | Mm-hmm. | 33:56 |
Charles Houston | Okay. And you had a family garden too? I mean, in which you grew vegetables and stuff like that. And who took care of that? | 34:04 |
Leola Davis Williams | Well, just all of us. | 34:11 |
Charles Houston | Okay. And you said whenever your parents were away, the older kids would try to beat you if somebody misbehaved, right? | 34:15 |
Leola Davis Williams | Yeah. | 34:29 |
Charles Houston | Now, what would they beat you for? What would they? | 34:31 |
Leola Davis Williams | Just try to make you do things and maybe do what they should be doing, they'll try to make you do it. | 34:33 |
Charles Houston | Okay. | 34:41 |
Leola Davis Williams | And I'd be knowing they supposed to do it, and I guess I was a little stubborn. | 34:43 |
Charles Houston | Right. So you got in fights with them, huh? | 34:48 |
Leola Davis Williams | Mm-hmm. | 34:51 |
Charles Houston | Now what time would your mom knock off to go in the house to cook supper? I mean, what time? | 34:55 |
Leola Davis Williams | Oh, for dinner? She'd knock off at 11. | 35:00 |
Charles Houston | In the morning, okay. Okay. Tell me please, about neighborhood kids, I mean kids who live nearby and playmates. I mean, did you play with kids on nearby farms? Did you have time for recreation? Did you play games or? | 35:03 |
Leola Davis Williams | Never till on Sundays. Sunday evenings. | 35:46 |
Charles Houston | Okay. | 35:49 |
Leola Davis Williams | Maybe Saturday. But Saturday we always had to do our home work, like clean yards and mop and iron. And Sunday, when we went to Sunday school, then that's when we would play and visit. | 35:50 |
Charles Houston | So during the week, Monday through Friday, it was farm work only, and then the housework was done on Saturday. And who did the housework? I mean, I assume there were all kinds of things to be done around the house. You want me to stop that? | 36:16 |
Leola Davis Williams | Yes. | 36:31 |
Charles Houston | I'll stop this for a minute. | 36:32 |
Leola Davis Williams | I hope I'm talking plain enough for you. | 36:33 |
Charles Houston | Oh no, absolutely. It's crystal clear and it's very, very interesting. We were talking about Sunday and the fact that was the only day you could play, that Saturday you had homework to do and you also had housework like mopping and ironing. And I was wondering. | 36:36 |
Leola Davis Williams | Cleaning the yard. | 36:55 |
Charles Houston | Cleaning the yard. And I was wondering how those household chores were divided. I mean, who did what when you were doing housework? | 36:55 |
Leola Davis Williams | Well, now mostly my job was ironing. I had to iron for everybody. | 37:05 |
Charles Houston | Okay. | 37:12 |
Leola Davis Williams | And most, I would start on Friday evening around about three. | 37:13 |
Charles Houston | And so you would iron from Friday evening. | 37:21 |
Leola Davis Williams | And Saturday morning until I finished. | 37:24 |
Charles Houston | Okay. And then what was that it for you then, that was your job? | 37:27 |
Leola Davis Williams | Yeah, that was mostly mine. | 37:32 |
Charles Houston | And then you were free after that to do home work? | 37:32 |
Leola Davis Williams | Supper, I would have to cook supper. But that ironing, my daddy loved his starched ironed overalls, and the jumper go with it and I would starch them and iron all that for him and the boys. | 37:37 |
Charles Houston | Oh, you mean you starched and ironed theirs too? | 37:54 |
Leola Davis Williams | Mm-hmm. | 37:56 |
Charles Houston | Oh. So when you say jumper, you mean the overalls that button over the shoulder. | 38:01 |
Leola Davis Williams | Uh-huh, go with the. I mean the jumper went with the overalls, it was coat like, but it all was the. | 38:05 |
Charles Houston | Okay. But it went over the overalls, okay. And what would the other kids do in terms of housework? Was there a difference between the kind of work that the boys did and the girls did? | 38:13 |
Leola Davis Williams | Well, the boys, they would always go in the woods and get wood and get it there. | 38:30 |
Charles Houston | For the stove I mean, I was. | 38:41 |
Leola Davis Williams | Stove, and our fire place. | 38:43 |
Charles Houston | Okay. | 38:48 |
Leola Davis Williams | They would have to haul wood out the woods in the wagon. | 38:51 |
Charles Houston | Right. | 38:55 |
Leola Davis Williams | Take the mules and haul the wood. | 38:56 |
Charles Houston | And so all the work inside the house was done by women. Did the boys do any chores inside the house? | 39:00 |
Leola Davis Williams | Not too much. When they got their work done, then they could shoot marbles and play and do whatever they wanted to do. | 39:10 |
Charles Houston | Okay. Tell me about the work that the women did in the house. I mean, aside from the ironing and so you said they scrubbed and they mopped. Did somebody else do sewing, for example? | 39:21 |
Leola Davis Williams | Well, my mother, she would patch, the boys wear out their knees and overalls. | 39:41 |
Charles Houston | Okay. | 39:43 |
Leola Davis Williams | She would patch. | 39:50 |
Charles Houston | Who did the washing? | 39:51 |
Leola Davis Williams | We did. Well, us, the girls. | 39:52 |
Charles Houston | Okay. And was there one day when you did that, did the washing? I mean, was there a particular day in the week when you did it. | 39:55 |
Leola Davis Williams | Friday. On Friday. | 40:02 |
Charles Houston | Okay. And you did that outside I guess. | 40:08 |
Leola Davis Williams | Our own rub bowls at that. Tin tubs. | 40:12 |
Charles Houston | Okay. Did you build a fire under the water to get it hot? | 40:18 |
Leola Davis Williams | Uh-huh. | 40:22 |
Charles Houston | Okay. And then you scrub those, scrub on wash boards. Tell me about Sunday if you would please. What was Sunday like? I mean, the typical Sunday from the time you got up just to. | 40:22 |
Leola Davis Williams | Yeah, we'd had to get up, go into Sunday school and church. Sunday school, and then when we got back from Sunday school, that would be our little pleasure to play and visit. | 40:34 |
Charles Houston | So you went to Sunday school and church? Or to Sunday school? | 40:47 |
Leola Davis Williams | Well, sometime just Sunday school and then we didn't have church till once a month. We'd go to Sunday school and come back home. Visit and play. | 40:50 |
Charles Houston | Okay. But you went to Sunday school every Sunday? | 41:06 |
Leola Davis Williams | Every Sunday. | 41:09 |
Charles Houston | Okay. And church once a month. Where did you go to church or Sunday school? Where did you go to Sunday school and church in the same place? | 41:11 |
Leola Davis Williams | Mm-hmm. | 41:17 |
Charles Houston | And where was that? | 41:18 |
Leola Davis Williams | That was, well back in then, this same church you came back up here. But back in then, it was way back there in the Woolworths. | 41:20 |
Charles Houston | Okay. And what's it called? | 41:29 |
Leola Davis Williams | Huh? | 41:31 |
Charles Houston | What's the name of the church? | 41:31 |
Leola Davis Williams | Green Grove. | 41:32 |
Charles Houston | Green Grove, right. Okay. Same as the school. | 41:33 |
Leola Davis Williams | Mm-hmm. | 41:36 |
Charles Houston | Okay. So was Green Grove School in the same building as the church? Was it the same building? A different building? | 41:37 |
Leola Davis Williams | Different. | 41:45 |
Charles Houston | Okay. So it was Green Grove Baptist Church? | 41:45 |
Leola Davis Williams | Methodist. | 41:49 |
Charles Houston | Okay. | 41:55 |
Leola Davis Williams | Because see, the church set way back in the woods but the school was up here at the corner where this church now. But this church where it is now, it won't there then. | 41:58 |
Charles Houston | Okay. And who taught Sunday school? | 42:16 |
Leola Davis Williams | Mr. Calvin. A man by the name Mr. Calvin Wright. Calvin Wright. | 42:19 |
Charles Houston | And was he a farmer? | 42:28 |
Leola Davis Williams | I think he worked at wagers. | 42:31 |
Charles Houston | And what he worked at wagers? | 42:36 |
Leola Davis Williams | Mm-hmm. | 42:38 |
Charles Houston | What was wagers? | 42:40 |
Leola Davis Williams | That was something like working by the day, getting paid by the day. | 42:43 |
Charles Houston | Oh, okay. But he worked in the countryside? He worked on Ichauway? | 42:48 |
Leola Davis Williams | No, not on Ichauway, on some of the Halls place. | 42:50 |
Speaker 3 | Those were Black ones. Halls were Black. | 42:59 |
Leola Davis Williams | No, some of the Halls were White. But them who, that he worked for, they was White. | 43:03 |
Charles Houston | So he worked for a White family named Hall? | 43:10 |
Leola Davis Williams | Mm-hmm, Hall. What was his name? John Bryant Hall. | 43:13 |
Charles Houston | John Bryant? | 43:21 |
Leola Davis Williams | Mm-hmm. | 43:23 |
Charles Houston | Okay. And again, I guess the children who attended Sunday school and the people who attended church were the people who went to the regular school, that is they were from Ichauway as well as folks who lived out in the county. So they were basically the same children you went to school with, is that right? | 43:24 |
Leola Davis Williams | Right. | 43:48 |
Charles Houston | And so after church, would you stay around the church and play with them there around the church? | 43:49 |
Leola Davis Williams | No, we would. | 43:56 |
Charles Houston | Go home. | 43:58 |
Leola Davis Williams | If we went home, we would go home with some of the children or either they would go home with us and then stay at the church. | 43:59 |
Charles Houston | And when you'd go home with them or when they'd come home with you, what would you do? What kinds of things would you play? | 44:13 |
Leola Davis Williams | Play ball and play running. Some kind of rain play. | 44:22 |
Charles Houston | Okay. What about toys? Did you guys have toys when you were little? | 44:35 |
Leola Davis Williams | Not too many. | 44:44 |
Charles Houston | Say homemade toys, any kind of toys? Would you just make things up? | 44:45 |
Leola Davis Williams | We didn't have too many toys, but we were, for Christmas they would buy few toys. | 44:51 |
Charles Houston | So what kinds of things would you get for Christmas? | 44:58 |
Leola Davis Williams | Something like a doll. And the boys would get something like a train or a truck or something like that. | 45:05 |
Charles Houston | But everybody would get something different? | 45:14 |
Leola Davis Williams | Mm-hmm. And most of the girls got dolls. | 45:15 |
Charles Houston | And boys would get things like trucks. | 45:24 |
Leola Davis Williams | Trucks and wagons and a harp. Just something like that. | 45:26 |
Charles Houston | Okay. Yeah. Speaking of a harp or music, did anybody in the family make music? | 45:37 |
Leola Davis Williams | No real music, but that they blow the harp, just blow and. | 45:43 |
Charles Houston | Okay. | 45:48 |
Leola Davis Williams | Be acting with it. | 45:48 |
Charles Houston | But nobody really played a harmonica or mouth harp or anything like that? | 45:53 |
Leola Davis Williams | No. | 45:57 |
Charles Houston | Okay. And you had lots of cousins and people living nearby because your family was from Baker County. Did you see them very often, your relatives? | 45:57 |
Leola Davis Williams | Just like I said, on weekends, that's the only time we had time to visit or. | 46:09 |
Charles Houston | Okay. | 46:15 |
Leola Davis Williams | Play. | 46:16 |
Charles Houston | Did any of your relatives go to Green Grove Church? | 46:19 |
Leola Davis Williams | Mm-hmm. | 46:24 |
Charles Houston | So what relatives went to Green Grove Church? | 46:26 |
Leola Davis Williams | Well, we had some relatives of, we had two different sets of Washingtons, but we all was keen and they went to, my cousins, they went to school, Sunday school and to Green Grove Church. | 46:30 |
Charles Houston | Okay. Yeah. Okay, so your maiden name is Davis. | 46:46 |
Charles Houston | So, I mean, you would play on Sunday afternoons when there wasn't church, and I guess your playmates or relatives would leave before dark? I mean, you'd— | 0:08 |
Leola Davis Williams | Mm-hmm. Sometimes, we would have church at night. We'd play till time to go back to church. | 0:18 |
Charles Houston | Okay. What was the occasion for church at night? How often did that happen? | 0:27 |
Leola Davis Williams | Once a month, when church would be in the daytime. I'm talking about besides Sunday school. We'd go to church that Sunday and then go back that Sunday evening. | 0:35 |
Charles Houston | Okay. So you had church once a month, but you always had it in the daytime and in the evening? | 0:46 |
Leola Davis Williams | Mm-hmm. | 0:52 |
Charles Houston | Okay. What would you do—Would there be a difference between what you did in the daytime and what you did in the evening? | 0:53 |
Leola Davis Williams | No, definitely same kind of service. | 1:01 |
Charles Houston | Okay. I mean, as you got older—I mean, as kids get older, girls start getting interested in boys and boys start getting interested in girls. But it sounds like you were so busy working that the only time boys and girls would have an opportunity, I mean, this is after they're, I don't know, 12, 13, 14 years old in there somewhere, little boys start getting interested in little girls and so on. But it sounds like the only time they would have to meet would be at school. They would see each other at school. But that's only two or three days a week. | 1:21 |
Leola Davis Williams | At school or on Sunday evenings. | 1:55 |
Charles Houston | Okay. Sunday evening? You mean Sunday afternoon or Sunday evening? | 1:59 |
Leola Davis Williams | Well, it wouldn't be night, Sunday evening. If the girls took company or the boys go out, that's when it would be. Well, the boys would be gone on Saturday night. | 2:05 |
Charles Houston | Where would they go? | 2:22 |
Leola Davis Williams | They had a certain time to be back. | 2:22 |
Charles Houston | But where would the boys go on Saturday night? | 2:25 |
Leola Davis Williams | Going to see their little girls. | 2:27 |
Charles Houston | But how did that work? I mean, they could go to the somebody's house and visit little girls on Saturday night? | 2:33 |
Leola Davis Williams | Mm-hmm. | 2:40 |
Charles Houston | So, when you were a little girl, did boys come and visit you on Saturday night? | 2:42 |
Leola Davis Williams | Sometimes, but mostly on Sunday evening. | 2:46 |
Charles Houston | Okay. So would boys the go—Would they do other things on Saturday night? Could boys just kind of go out and do what they wanted to do on Saturday nights? | 2:50 |
Leola Davis Williams | Yeah. But they couldn't stay out like they stay out now. They had to be back at least no later than 11 o'clock. They had to be home. | 3:02 |
Charles Houston | Okay. | 3:16 |
Leola Davis Williams | We had to be home before sundown. | 3:16 |
Charles Houston | Okay. When boys did come over to visit, whether it was Saturday night or Sunday, what did you do? I mean, if a boy came over to see you on a Saturday night or a Sunday, what would he do when he came to your house? I mean, could you go for a walk? Would you sit on the porch? | 3:28 |
Leola Davis Williams | No. We sit and talk a while inside. | 3:54 |
Charles Houston | Inside rather than out— | 4:00 |
Leola Davis Williams | We could sit on the porch if it was— | 4:01 |
Charles Houston | Okay. Would they come over for dinner on Sunday? Would they ever stay for dinner? | 4:06 |
Leola Davis Williams | Mm-hmm. | 4:11 |
Charles Houston | Okay. | 4:11 |
Leola Davis Williams | They didn't come that early. It's kind of like three and four o'clock, something like that. | 4:13 |
Charles Houston | So what time did you eat dinner? | 4:21 |
Leola Davis Williams | Oh, we'd eat dinner when we got back from church, and that would be around about one or two o'clock. | 4:24 |
Charles Houston | I mean, then late at night, say around six, you'd eat again? No? | 4:34 |
Leola Davis Williams | Mm-hmm. | 4:39 |
Charles Houston | Okay. | 4:42 |
Leola Davis Williams | The leftovers, you could eat that. | 4:43 |
Charles Houston | Okay. Now you said your dad farmed for half shares and that you shopped in town. So, did your dad buy things in town at the store on credit? I'm wondering now about settling up and about whether there were ever problems settling up at harvest time. | 4:50 |
Leola Davis Williams | Well, not as I know of because he never did really let us know nothing about his business or nothing. When he'd go to get his settlement, all he would do come back and say what he got or what he didn't get and it'd be borrowing money on the next year crop. | 5:25 |
Charles Houston | Who would he borrow that money from, the landowner of Ichauway, or from the merchant? | 5:51 |
Leola Davis Williams | Mm-hmm. Ichauway, the landowner. | 5:56 |
Charles Houston | But he never told you how much profit he made, or did he tell you? | 5:58 |
Leola Davis Williams | I don't remember him telling us. He might've told my Mama. He didn't tell her all of it. My daddy was kind of like a courting man. | 6:03 |
Charles Houston | Like a what? Like a courting man? | 6:14 |
Leola Davis Williams | He kept back, I just imagine, a lots. But all we'd know to do is work. | 6:19 |
Charles Houston | Okay. Okay. Okay. Do you know if he borrowed money from the store? I mean, did he ever have to buy things on credit from the store, clothes, and stuff like that? Or was he paying with cash for those? | 6:26 |
Leola Davis Williams | I think he did. Like clothes, he would buy from some of them Howell store down there. We didn't ever go to town. He'd mostly go and do what to be done. | 7:02 |
Charles Houston | So, your dad would go to town when, on Saturdays? | 7:18 |
Leola Davis Williams | On Saturday. | 7:20 |
Charles Houston | But he didn't take the family? | 7:23 |
Leola Davis Williams | Mm-hmm. | 7:24 |
Charles Houston | Not your mother either? | 7:26 |
Leola Davis Williams | Sometimes she would go. Most times, she wanted to stay home and patch and get the clothes ready for the next week. She would do that. | 7:27 |
Charles Houston | Okay. Were all of the people who lived on Ichauway, I mean, all the people that you saw on Ichauway, other Black farming families, or were there Whites living there too? | 7:53 |
Leola Davis Williams | It was Black and White. | 8:02 |
Charles Houston | Okay. What were the Whites doing? | 8:03 |
Leola Davis Williams | They would work the same way, sharecropping. | 8:06 |
Charles Houston | So there were White sharecroppers there too? | 8:11 |
Leola Davis Williams | Mm-hmm. | 8:12 |
Charles Houston | Were there a lot of Whites there? I, mean, how many were there? | 8:17 |
Leola Davis Williams | I believe there were more Blacks than it was White. | 8:20 |
Charles Houston | Okay. Did you see the little White kids? Did you see them? | 8:29 |
Leola Davis Williams | No, we didn't live nowhere near there. | 8:34 |
Charles Houston | Okay. So were the White farmers and the Black farmers living in different parts of the plantation? | 8:36 |
Leola Davis Williams | Well, yeah. Because none of the Whites—We always lived kind of off, kind of like from everybody. | 8:46 |
Charles Houston | Okay. I guess because you had such a big farm, I mean, you had a big family, so you had a seven-horse farm and so everybody— | 9:02 |
Leola Davis Williams | That reached out a long ways. | 9:08 |
Charles Houston | Okay. | 9:09 |
Leola Davis Williams | We didn't know. | 9:09 |
Charles Houston | I mean, were there any Black families living near White families on Ichauway? Were there situations where Black families and White families lived next to each other that you know of? | 9:16 |
Leola Davis Williams | Not as I remember. | 9:27 |
Charles Houston | So, I mean, Black kids and White kids didn't play together? | 9:36 |
Leola Davis Williams | Oh, no. | 9:38 |
Charles Houston | No. | 9:38 |
Leola Davis Williams | Mm-hmm. | 9:39 |
Charles Houston | What about the landowner? Did you ever see the landowner around the farm? Did he ever come around to see how things were going? | 9:44 |
Leola Davis Williams | Yeah. Well, he had a overseer, the rider. Well, the big man, he lived in Atlanta and he had a overseer to see at everything. | 9:54 |
Charles Houston | He was White? | 10:07 |
Leola Davis Williams | Mm-hmm. | 10:10 |
Charles Houston | Okay. | 10:10 |
Leola Davis Williams | And he'd always ride the farms, see, and whatever. If my daddy said he needed some more fertilizer or something like that, he could go get it. | 10:10 |
Charles Houston | What was he like, the overseer? | 10:28 |
Leola Davis Williams | What was he like? | 10:35 |
Charles Houston | Yeah, yeah. What kind of relationship did your daddy have with him? I mean. | 10:36 |
Leola Davis Williams | Oh, they had a good relationship. | 10:40 |
Charles Houston | Okay. | 10:45 |
Leola Davis Williams | Because my daddy would work his eyeball out for him. | 10:46 |
Charles Houston | Okay. | 10:46 |
Leola Davis Williams | Make them good crops, I've seen him. If he make 16 loads of corn, then he'd keep eight and cut him eight. | 11:00 |
Charles Houston | So if he made 16 loads of corn, your dad would keep eight and he'd give eight not to the overseer, but to the landowner, or to the overseer? | 11:16 |
Leola Davis Williams | To the overseer because he would be seen there. They had a barn down there. My daddy would carry the corn and unload it, and come back. They'd know where everything was. | 11:23 |
Charles Houston | Okay. | 11:34 |
Leola Davis Williams | If he made 20 tons of peanuts, that went the same way. | 11:37 |
Charles Houston | Okay. The overseer had a big barn where he kept everything? | 11:59 |
Leola Davis Williams | Mm-hmm. | 12:01 |
Charles Houston | So all these goods flowed into the overseer's barn from the various Black farms on the plantation? | 12:03 |
Leola Davis Williams | Mm-hmm. Yeah. | 12:16 |
Charles Houston | Okay. Were there ever any problems on the plantation, ever any disagreements that you recall, any fights, any violence, anything like that ever, any trouble? | 12:21 |
Leola Davis Williams | Not as I know of. I reckon the White folks just told the Black what to do. At that time, they did it. | 12:36 |
Charles Houston | So you don't know of any instance where a Black didn't do what he was told to do or she was told to do? No? | 12:49 |
Leola Davis Williams | No. | 13:07 |
Charles Houston | Okay. No instances where somebody crossed the line, as they say, and did something that Whites didn't like? | 13:07 |
Leola Davis Williams | No, not as I remember. | 13:15 |
Charles Houston | Okay. Okay. What would happen if a Black farmer got sick? Let's say he had an accident, say he broke his leg, or fell off a roof, or just got sick and couldn't farm, what would happen? | 13:19 |
Leola Davis Williams | Well, I hadn't known it to happen. But I guess if it would happen, just if it would've happened to my daddy, well, see the boys would've carried the farm on. | 13:41 |
Charles Houston | Okay. Okay. | 13:48 |
Leola Davis Williams | But I'd never known it to happen. | 13:48 |
Charles Houston | Okay. Who were the leaders of the community? What would you say were the boundaries of your community? I mean, the community included all of the farming families on it Ichauway? I mean, did you know all of the Black farming families on Ichauway? | 14:13 |
Leola Davis Williams | No, I didn't know them all because— | 14:28 |
Charles Houston | How many families would you say you knew or your family knew? People at church? All those people who went to the church, you went to, Green Grove? | 14:31 |
Leola Davis Williams | No. Some of them, it was another church they called Nochauway. Most Ichauway peoples went to church at Nochauway. It's a Methodist church. | 14:44 |
Charles Houston | So would it be safe to say that all of the Black farmers at Ichauway were Methodists, whether they went to Green Grove or whether they went to Nochauway Church? | 15:02 |
Leola Davis Williams | No, I wouldn't say all of them was Methodist. Some of them was Baptist. | 15:12 |
Charles Houston | Okay, so there was Baptist? You did say the Green Grove was a Methodist church? | 15:17 |
Leola Davis Williams | Methodist. Mm-hmm. | 15:22 |
Charles Houston | Okay. Who would you say were the leaders of your community? I mean, who were the Black leaders that farmers would look to? Can you ever remember, I don't know—Who would you say the leaders of the community were, like the minister? | 15:41 |
Leola Davis Williams | The leaders? | 16:22 |
Charles Houston | Yeah. Was it the minister? I mean, did Black farmers ever turn to other Blacks for advice? For example, if somebody died, how would they get buried? I mean, when people died, they were buried at the church graveyard? | 16:23 |
Leola Davis Williams | Yes, if they belonged to that church. | 16:47 |
Charles Houston | Okay. And if they belong to another church, they would be buried at their own church graveyard? | 16:47 |
Leola Davis Williams | Mm-hmm. | 16:59 |
Charles Houston | I mean, was there a burial fund that people paid into? | 17:00 |
Leola Davis Williams | No. They just- | 17:05 |
Charles Houston | The church just paid for it? | 17:07 |
Leola Davis Williams | At that time, wherever the church was, if it was on Ichauway, then they just buried for nothing because I reckon gave them that. | 17:11 |
Charles Houston | Okay. Now, how old were you when you got married? | 17:44 |
Leola Davis Williams | That should've been something like 17 or 18, something like that. | 17:49 |
Charles Houston | Okay. How did you meet your husband? | 17:56 |
Leola Davis Williams | Well, he was on Ichauway. | 18:00 |
Charles Houston | Okay. So he was a neighbor? His family was a neighboring family? | 18:07 |
Leola Davis Williams | Yeah. Well, he lived a good ways from us, a long ways, but he would come. | 18:10 |
Charles Houston | So, how'd you meet him? | 18:16 |
Leola Davis Williams | I even can't remember when I first met him. I don't know whether we was at church or might've been to a ballgame or somewhere. I don't know. | 18:17 |
Charles Houston | At a ballgame? | 18:33 |
Leola Davis Williams | Could have been. | 18:34 |
Charles Houston | Tell me about the ballgames. I mean, how often would there be ballgames, and from far away would people come? What kind of ballgame? | 18:35 |
Leola Davis Williams | It would be Ichauway ballgame, and they would play most every Sunday. Some Saturdays they would practice, but they play on Sunday, different teams and whatnot. | 18:47 |
Charles Houston | So, they practiced on Saturday, played on Sunday afternoon? | 19:04 |
Leola Davis Williams | Mm-hmm. | 19:08 |
Charles Houston | And this is baseball? | 19:10 |
Leola Davis Williams | Mm-hmm. | 19:11 |
Charles Houston | They played at a field on the plantation? | 19:17 |
Leola Davis Williams | Mm-hmm. | 19:20 |
Charles Houston | Was there a community facility, or this was just a field where they just played? | 19:21 |
Leola Davis Williams | A field. | 19:27 |
Charles Houston | Just on a field? And this was a regular thing that happened? | 19:28 |
Leola Davis Williams | Mm-hmm. | 19:34 |
Charles Houston | Would they play teams from other plantations, or would they just make up teams on the plantation? | 19:34 |
Leola Davis Williams | Teams from other— | 19:39 |
Charles Houston | From other plantations? | 19:41 |
Leola Davis Williams | —from other places. Didn't have to be a plantation, just team from Albany, or a team from Leary, or Bainbridge. That same ballgame there today. | 19:41 |
Charles Houston | So on Sunday then, these teams from other places would come in, and would people from other places come in to see their teams play? | 20:04 |
Leola Davis Williams | Mm—hmm. | 20:13 |
Charles Houston | Would people come in from Albany and from Bainbridge and from Leary? | 20:13 |
Leola Davis Williams | Mm-hmm. | 20:17 |
Charles Houston | They'd come in by what, in horse and wagon? | 20:17 |
Leola Davis Williams | Car. Well, oh, back there you mean? | 20:20 |
Charles Houston | Well, I mean anytime. | 20:24 |
Leola Davis Williams | Well, mostly they'd walk. Well, they weren't playing like I'm saying like teams then. They would just play. But it mostly was in walking. | 20:25 |
Charles Houston | Was in walking distance? | 20:40 |
Leola Davis Williams | Yes. Mm-hmm. | 20:41 |
Charles Houston | So when you were a little girl, say, before you got married, people didn't come from as far away as Albany or Bainbridge? | 20:42 |
Leola Davis Williams | Oh no. No. No. | 20:55 |
Charles Houston | That was much later? | 20:56 |
Leola Davis Williams | Mm-hmm. That was later. | 20:57 |
Charles Houston | Okay. So you got to meet some new people at these ballgames? I mean, you would see new people that you didn't ordinarily see at these ballgames? | 21:05 |
Leola Davis Williams | Mm-hmm. | 21:11 |
Charles Houston | Were there other functions like that like county fairs? Was there ever a county fair? Did you ever go to county fairs? | 21:12 |
Leola Davis Williams | County fairs? | 21:20 |
Charles Houston | Like Baker County, did the Baker County ever have a fair where they'd have livestock and stuff like that? | 21:35 |
Speaker 3 | [indistinct 00:21:45]. | 21:40 |
Charles Houston | [indistinct 00:21:47]. Is that right? Okay. So really, it was a ballgame mainly where you'd meet new people and you may have met your husband at a ballgame. | 21:47 |
Leola Davis Williams | May have. Maybe. | 21:56 |
Charles Houston | Okay. Okay. You met him, and you got married about age 17 or 18. Where did you live? | 22:03 |
Leola Davis Williams | Well, I lived still on Ichauway with his mother and daddy till we moved out. | 22:10 |
Charles Houston | And how long was that? | 22:16 |
Leola Davis Williams | Maybe we stayed around two years. | 22:19 |
Charles Houston | And when you moved out, where'd you go? | 22:27 |
Leola Davis Williams | We moved—It was off Ichauway then, Bob Edmondale. What's that family name? Charlie Burke. | 22:30 |
Charles Houston | So Charlie Burke's Plantation? | 22:53 |
Leola Davis Williams | His farm. | 22:57 |
Charles Houston | Okay. Is it B-U-R-T? | 22:59 |
Leola Davis Williams | B-U-R-K-E, I think. | 23:01 |
Charles Houston | Okay. So, your husband started working for shares on Charlie Burkes? | 23:07 |
Leola Davis Williams | No, he just worked by the day. | 23:11 |
Charles Houston | Okay. And Charlie Burke provided a house? | 23:18 |
Leola Davis Williams | Mm-hmm. | 23:23 |
Charles Houston | Okay. Let's see, this would've been late 1930s? | 23:29 |
Leola Davis Williams | Something like that. | 23:32 |
Charles Houston | Okay. Well, yeah, if you married at 17 or 18 and you lived with his parents two years, then that would've been around 19—And you were born in 1919. That would've been around 1939. Now, during this time, this was in the 1930s, were you aware of Black farmers losing their farms, not being able to make crops? Were there problems with farmers not being able to make crops and staying on plantations or staying on farms? | 23:42 |
Leola Davis Williams | Well, now, my husband had a problem of staying on farm. He was just somebody, if they made him mad, he would leave. | 24:21 |
Charles Houston | Okay. | 24:31 |
Leola Davis Williams | He would just quit work and go. I'd have to be following him till I just got tired of that. We moved about every year, and I just got fed up with that. I wanted to get somewhere and stay. | 24:32 |
Charles Houston | What kinds of things did he get angry about? | 24:57 |
Leola Davis Williams | Like money. Mostly if it rained and you couldn't plow, they always had something else for you to do like cutting bushes, and all like that, and he didn't like all that. He'd just leave. | 25:02 |
Charles Houston | So he would leave before the— | 25:24 |
Leola Davis Williams | Before he'd gather and all like that. | 25:25 |
Charles Houston | He'd just pick up and move? I mean, he'd get angry and leave immediately? | 25:29 |
Leola Davis Williams | Mm-hmm. And go to some of his folks' till he find somewhere else to stay. | 25:33 |
Charles Houston | When he moved, would you stay always in the same county? | 25:55 |
Leola Davis Williams | Yeah, it'll be in the same county. | 25:59 |
Charles Houston | He did that a lot, huh? | 26:07 |
Leola Davis Williams | Mostly, a lot till we— | 26:08 |
Charles Houston | Did get a bad reputation among people? Were people reluctant to hire him because he had a reputation? | 26:16 |
Leola Davis Williams | He could get a job now. He could easily get a job. But he just would leave it if something about it he didn't like. | 26:21 |
Charles Houston | Okay. Did you ever settle down, or were you always moving around? | 26:34 |
Leola Davis Williams | Moving around till I got tired and just quit him. | 26:39 |
Charles Houston | You quit him? | 26:53 |
Leola Davis Williams | Mm-hmm. | 26:53 |
Charles Houston | Did you have any children? | 27:07 |
Leola Davis Williams | Oh yeah, we had six children. | 27:07 |
Charles Houston | And when did you finally quit him? | 27:08 |
Leola Davis Williams | In the '40s, I believe, sometime in the '40s. | 27:09 |
Charles Houston | Do you remember whether it was early or late '40s? | 27:21 |
Leola Davis Williams | It could have been '47. | 27:23 |
Charles Houston | So, after the war? | 27:43 |
Leola Davis Williams | After the war? | 27:49 |
Charles Houston | Yeah, after World War II. World War II was over in '45 if that's around there sometime. Where were you living at the time you quit your husband? | 27:50 |
Leola Davis Williams | We was living right up—Where y'all came down 200, we was living right up there on 200. Miss Fanny Hall was running that. I left and went to Camilla to my uncle and stayed about a year and a half. When I came back then, I was on my own. | 28:12 |
Charles Houston | So you live with, what, your mother's brother? | 28:38 |
Leola Davis Williams | My daddy's brother. | 28:40 |
Charles Houston | Okay. You took your six kids there to Camilla? | 28:48 |
Leola Davis Williams | No, I didn't take but two. I left the others with my Mama. | 28:51 |
Charles Houston | So you took the two youngest? | 28:56 |
Leola Davis Williams | Mm-hmm. | 28:57 |
Charles Houston | Okay. You said you stayed with your uncle for about a year? | 29:09 |
Leola Davis Williams | Maybe a year and a half, something like that. | 29:12 |
Charles Houston | So, you stayed 12 to 18 months? And when you returned, you said you were on your own. How did you support yourself? | 29:18 |
Leola Davis Williams | I got me a house and went to farming with Harrison Hawkins. | 29:27 |
Charles Houston | Who's that? He was a friend? | 29:33 |
Leola Davis Williams | Well, I know them good. Friend, yeah. My oldest son, he'd plow, we'd farmed with him. | 29:36 |
Charles Houston | So you shared a farm with Harrison Hawkins, or he had a farm nearby? Did you have your own farm? | 29:52 |
Leola Davis Williams | No. | 29:58 |
Charles Houston | Okay. | 29:59 |
Leola Davis Williams | We just worked. My son just plowed every day. We went down together. We all just getting paid by the day. | 30:04 |
Charles Houston | Okay. So when you say it was your own farm, you weren't farming for shares, but your son was simply working on the land? | 30:18 |
Leola Davis Williams | Mm-hmm. | 30:27 |
Charles Houston | You had a place to live, but you were really working by the day? | 30:28 |
Leola Davis Williams | Mm-hmm. | 30:33 |
Charles Houston | Okay. I'm not clear who Harrison Hawkins was. Was he— | 30:40 |
Leola Davis Williams | He was a landowner. He had land. | 30:48 |
Charles Houston | Oh, okay. So, you were on Harrison Hawkins' farm? | 30:50 |
Leola Davis Williams | Uh-huh. | 30:53 |
Charles Houston | Okay. | 30:53 |
Leola Davis Williams | I guess I stayed there about two years, and then I moved on to Miller Farm. | 30:59 |
Charles Houston | Okay. Which is also nearby? | 31:07 |
Leola Davis Williams | It joined, the land joined. | 31:14 |
Charles Houston | Okay. And same arrangement? I mean, you were working for Miller by the day? Did you— | 31:21 |
Leola Davis Williams | Well, we didn't work by the day there. We shared with the Miller like sharecrop. | 31:29 |
Charles Houston | So you were on one-half share with Millers? | 31:34 |
Leola Davis Williams | Mm-hmm. | 31:36 |
Charles Houston | I assume that was better than working by the day? | 31:41 |
Leola Davis Williams | It was. | 31:44 |
Charles Houston | You made more? | 31:46 |
Leola Davis Williams | Mm-hmm. | 31:47 |
Charles Houston | Okay. It was your oldest son then who was doing the plowing? | 31:52 |
Leola Davis Williams | Mm-hmm. Well, then the other one had growed up. I had about two sons plowing. | 31:58 |
Charles Houston | Okay. So you had two sons plowing? | 32:09 |
Leola Davis Williams | Mm-hmm. | 32:10 |
Speaker 3 | Miller was White or Black? | 32:16 |
Leola Davis Williams | Hm? | 32:17 |
Speaker 3 | Miller was White or Black? | 32:17 |
Leola Davis Williams | Black. | 32:17 |
Charles Houston | Oh, is that right? Harrison Miller was— | 32:19 |
Leola Davis Williams | Black. | 32:22 |
Charles Houston | Okay. What was Miller's first name? | 32:30 |
Leola Davis Williams | Miller? | 32:33 |
Charles Houston | Uh-huh. | 32:33 |
Leola Davis Williams | Julius. Julius Miller. | 32:34 |
Charles Houston | Julius. Were there many Black landowners around? | 32:35 |
Leola Davis Williams | Mm-hmm. All these Hawkins, they got their— | 32:43 |
Charles Houston | Hawkins was Black too? | 32:47 |
Leola Davis Williams | Mm-hmm. They got their little land and everything. | 32:48 |
Charles Houston | So, how many Black families would you say in the area owned their own land? | 32:55 |
Leola Davis Williams | Oh, I would say, well, really all. But you don't know around in here though. But all this section around in here is Black and they got their land. They call this Hawkinstown. | 33:03 |
Charles Houston | So the name of this area is Hawkinstown? | 33:25 |
Leola Davis Williams | Mm-hmm. | 33:26 |
Charles Houston | Okay. | 33:26 |
Leola Davis Williams | I'm at the beginning and on and on. | 33:26 |
Charles Houston | So a lot of the people who were at Green Grove Methodist Church were landowners? They owned their own farms? | 33:37 |
Leola Davis Williams | Well, I wouldn't say a member Green Grove because they mostly member of Thankfuls, the Baptist Church on 91, all the Hawkins. | 33:43 |
Charles Houston | What's the name of the church? | 33:54 |
Leola Davis Williams | Thankfuls, Thankfuls Baptist Church. | 33:55 |
Charles Houston | Thankfus. T-H-A-N-K— | 33:58 |
Leola Davis Williams | F-U-L. | 34:01 |
Charles Houston | Okay. Thankfus Baptist Church. Okay. So when your husband was getting angry and walking off farms, I just assume those were White farms that he was walking off of. | 34:02 |
Leola Davis Williams | Mm-hmm. | 34:31 |
Charles Houston | Did he not work for Black landowners, your husband? | 34:31 |
Leola Davis Williams | Well, he might have, but me and him weren't together then. | 34:36 |
Charles Houston | Okay. But when you and he were together, he only worked for White landowners? | 34:41 |
Leola Davis Williams | Mm-hmm. | 34:44 |
Charles Houston | Okay. So how long did you work for Julius Miller? | 34:44 |
Leola Davis Williams | Oh, a long time until—I moved to the Millers in the '50s, and I worked there till I reckon till about in the '70s. | 34:52 |
Charles Houston | Okay. | 35:10 |
Leola Davis Williams | Because he passed sometime in that time. Well, when I moved from the Millers, I moved right here. | 35:13 |
Charles Houston | Okay. And when was that? | 35:19 |
Leola Davis Williams | When what? | 35:29 |
Charles Houston | I'm sorry, when you moved here? | 35:30 |
Leola Davis Williams | Oh, in '72. | 35:32 |
Charles Houston | Okay. Now, during this time from the 1950s until you moved here and you were sharecropping on the Millers' Farm? | 35:39 |
Leola Davis Williams | Mm-hmm. | 35:50 |
Charles Houston | You said you had six kids all together and in 1950, you had two sons who were doing the plowing. How many sons did you have all together? | 35:52 |
Leola Davis Williams | Well, I have in all seven sons. | 36:02 |
Charles Houston | Seven sons. | 36:05 |
Leola Davis Williams | I have 10 children in all. | 36:05 |
Charles Houston | Okay. So you had four more children after you moved here on onto this— | 36:10 |
Leola Davis Williams | No, around to the Millers'. | 36:14 |
Charles Houston | Yeah, I'm sorry. That's what I meant. I meant around to the Millers' in 1950? | 36:17 |
Leola Davis Williams | Mm-hmm. | 36:19 |
Charles Houston | Okay. | 36:19 |
Leola Davis Williams | That's when my son, Judge Williams, was born, in '50. | 36:20 |
Charles Houston | Okay. So Judge Henry Williams was born? | 36:28 |
Leola Davis Williams | Mm-hmm. | 36:40 |
Charles Houston | Okay. I mean, during the late '40s, were there people, were there people leaving this area? Were there fewer farmers? Some people from this area had gone off, I presume, during the war. Say, in the early '40s, were the people going away to the war? | 36:50 |
Leola Davis Williams | Well, some. | 37:16 |
Charles Houston | Okay. During the '50s, after you moved to the Millers' Farm, was there NAACP activity in this area? Do you remember any NAACP activity, say, during the '40s, either during the war? | 37:27 |
Leola Davis Williams | Well, I can remember it was, but mostly it was kind of—What you would say, kind of like— | 37:45 |
Speaker 3 | White side. | 37:58 |
Leola Davis Williams | Mm-hmm. I remember, oh, I like to call this old man's name. He used to get the newspaper. | 38:04 |
Charles Houston | The Crisis. | 38:09 |
Leola Davis Williams | But he would walk to Albany from Newton, walk to Albany and pick up this paper. And the NACP was going on then, but they was trying not to let the Whites know about it. I can't call his name. | 38:10 |
Charles Houston | I mean, once the old man got the newspaper, would people read it and talk about what was in it, but do it quietly, say, behind closed door? | 38:35 |
Leola Davis Williams | They'd do it quietly, secretly-like because he didn't want them to even know he was going to Albany to pick it up. He would leave walking. He wouldn't ask nobody to take him. | 38:42 |
Charles Houston | Okay. | 38:52 |
Leola Davis Williams | He would leave walking. | 38:52 |
Charles Houston | Do you know where he would pick it up? | 38:55 |
Leola Davis Williams | Not really. I didn't know what parts of Albany he would pick it up at. | 38:57 |
Charles Houston | Okay. Did you ever hear people talking about this? This was when now, this was in the '40s? | 39:01 |
Leola Davis Williams | In the '50s. That's when I remember that happening. | 39:07 |
Charles Houston | Is that the first time— | 39:14 |
Leola Davis Williams | Nick Washington, that's what he was named, Mr. Nick Washington. He was kind of old. | 39:15 |
Charles Houston | Was he a relative? | 39:24 |
Leola Davis Williams | No. | 39:26 |
Charles Houston | He wasn't one of the two Washington families that were related? | 39:27 |
Leola Davis Williams | Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. | 39:30 |
Charles Houston | Okay. | 39:30 |
Leola Davis Williams | Different Washington. | 39:30 |
Charles Houston | So, is the first recollection you have of the NAACP from the time that you were living on the Miller farm? Do you remember hearing about the NAACP before that? | 39:34 |
Leola Davis Williams | Well, just a little sneak bit was kind of coming in long and then. | 39:56 |
Charles Houston | Before you moved on Miller— | 39:57 |
Leola Davis Williams | But they didn't want talking it, just kind of secretly-like. | 39:58 |
Charles Houston | Okay. So what kinds of things would they talk about? Do you remember? When it was real secretive, do you remember what people talked about? | 40:03 |
Leola Davis Williams | Well, really, they weren't talking in front of us. It just was certain peoples, I would say, well, kind of land owners, I would say, Old Man Nick Washington, Old Man Julius Miller, and Mr. Josh William. Who else? Carl Broadway and T. Kunny, like them, they would just get together and talk. But when it really broke out, that's when—The White got hold to it somehow or another. I don't know how. But that's when they went to bombing Mr. Josh William house and Carl Broadway. | 40:10 |
Charles Houston | And when did that happen? | 41:08 |
Leola Davis Williams | That was sometime in '50s. Some in the '50s. No, that was probably in the '60s. The last of the '50s or the '60s, one. | 41:11 |
Charles Houston | So when Whites found out that the Blacks were joining the NACCP, they started bombing? They bombed Josh Williams? | 41:26 |
Leola Davis Williams | Josh Williams' house and Carl Broadway house. What did they do to T. Kunny? | 41:34 |
Charles Houston | Carl, who? | 41:42 |
Leola Davis Williams | Carl Broadway. | 41:43 |
Charles Houston | Broadway. And T. Kunny. | 41:45 |
Leola Davis Williams | Mm-hmm. | 41:50 |
Charles Houston | C-U-N-N-Y? | 41:51 |
Leola Davis Williams | K-U-N-N-Y. They did something to him. | 41:53 |
Charles Houston | So this was late 1950s? | 42:08 |
Leola Davis Williams | Maybe '60s, in '60s. | 42:12 |
Charles Houston | Right. Okay. Now— | 42:17 |
Leola Davis Williams | I would say that's when the NAACP had started kind of getting out. | 42:19 |
Charles Houston | Okay. | 42:23 |
Leola Davis Williams | Then that's when they went to doing that damage. | 42:26 |
Charles Houston | So before that, it had been really secretive. | 42:31 |
Leola Davis Williams | Mm-hmm. | 42:34 |
Charles Houston | But it was mainly the people who owned their own farms who were involved in it? Mainly the landowners? | 42:34 |
Leola Davis Williams | Mm-hmm. | 42:39 |
Charles Houston | Was it that people who didn't own their own farms were not invited to join? | 42:42 |
Leola Davis Williams | Well, they could have joined. They didn't talk it much because I guess they didn't want it to get out. But somehow or another, it had got out. Then, finally, got open. That's when all us soon got involved in it. | 42:47 |
Charles Houston | Okay. But you said that people who farmed for shares or who worked for wages on farms could've joined, but that they didn't join? Is that right? | 43:18 |
Leola Davis Williams | I believe they could have. | 43:30 |
Charles Houston | Okay. So, why didn't they? Do have any idea why they didn't join? | 43:32 |
Leola Davis Williams | Well, some people's talk ain't got no secret, just talk, talk. I guess they was trying to, I guess, keep it from them. I don't know. | 43:41 |
Charles Houston | So, you think the landowners may not have wanted too many people to join? | 43:53 |
Leola Davis Williams | Well, I didn't know whether they did or not, but that was just along in the time I heard about it. | 44:00 |
Charles Houston | Okay. So you heard about it about the time it was breaking out, and this was in the late '50s? | 44:11 |
Leola Davis Williams | Yeah. | 44:13 |
Charles Houston | Okay. | 44:13 |
Speaker 3 | The way you said it, I thought that meant they didn't want talk with people that wasn't liable. A man with responsibility under 200, 300 acres of land had so much to lose, while a man that is not a landowner, well, he could lie about anything because he had nothing to lose. | 44:13 |
Leola Davis Williams | Maybe that's the way it was. It was some kind of way like that. | 44:51 |
Charles Houston | Right. | 44:55 |
Leola Davis Williams | Because they just didn't want—I mean, they wouldn't talk with Dick, Tom, and Harry. You know what I'm trying to say. | 44:56 |
Charles Houston | Right. But for the most part, Reverend Wells, it sounds like the majority of the NAACP activists, the people who were active in the organization, the members were landowners. Yeah, maybe it was that they were afraid that the non-landowners would not keep the secret so well, or maybe it was that the non-landowners were afraid because they were, after all, dependent for their homes on the White landowners. | 45:03 |
Speaker 3 | Yes. | 45:37 |
Charles Houston | I mean, they were more vulnerable. The landowners were a bit more independent. They could afford to take a few more chances. | 45:38 |
Speaker 3 | I see. | 45:46 |
Charles Houston | Because nobody could put them out of their house. | 45:47 |
Leola Davis Williams | Yeah. That's one thing. That's number one. | 45:49 |
Charles Houston | Perhaps, yeah. | 45:52 |
Leola Davis Williams | Because if they— | 45:53 |
Charles Houston | I'm just wondering whether anybody talked about it and whether you actually heard anything, whether there was any indication of why non-landowners didn't join so much. I mean, we can speculate about it, but I was just wondering whether anybody said anything about it. | 45:55 |
Leola Davis Williams | Well, you about covered that part because I believe that would've been it. Because if the non-landowners would really participate and the White knowed it and you was living on they land, you would have to move if they found out you was participating, | 46:14 |
Charles Houston | They put you out. Right? | 46:38 |
Leola Davis Williams | Mm-hmm. | 46:39 |
Charles Houston | Now, what about bombings? You said that when word got out, either in the late '50s or early '60s, that some of the landowners were active in the NAACP, that Whites started bombing people. | 46:40 |
Charles Houston | Afraid, but who were they afraid of? I mean, who was doing the bombing? | 0:01 |
Leola Davis Williams | Well see— | 0:06 |
Charles Houston | Yeah. | 0:07 |
Leola Davis Williams | That's what you really wouldn't know 'cause they wouldn't do—They'd get out—That up for it. | 0:07 |
Charles Houston | Okay. | 0:12 |
Leola Davis Williams | They'll be knowing about what they going to do. I just imagine they be done discussed it that day and then when night come, that's when they do they dirt. | 0:36 |
Charles Houston | Okay. | 0:50 |
Charles Houston | Okay. What could Blacks do to protect themselves? Or what did they do? What strategies could Blacks take to protect themselves from reprisals? I mean, if someone was active in the NAACP, what could he do to protect himself? If word was out that he was active? I mean, did Blacks arm themselves? Did they leave? Did they call over neighbors to help them? I mean, what could they do? | 1:06 |
Leola Davis Williams | Well, I armed themself, all I knew—Well, lately after then, that's when Hosie Miller got killed. And then that's when all us got involved then. | 1:55 |
Charles Houston | Tell me about— | 2:18 |
Leola Davis Williams | What year? I don't know what year was that now. | 2:18 |
Charles Houston | Will tell me about the circumstances of surrounding Jose? | 2:18 |
Leola Davis Williams | Hosie. | 2:22 |
Charles Houston | Hosie Miller. | 2:23 |
Leola Davis Williams | Jose Miller. | 2:23 |
Charles Houston | Yeah. Just tell me about the circumstances, what happened? I mean, why was he killed and who killed him? And I just tell me about the circumstances. | 2:26 |
Leola Davis Williams | Well, now I guess Grace could tell you more than I could, but— | 2:41 |
Charles Houston | Grace? | 2:48 |
Leola Davis Williams | This was his wife. | 2:49 |
Speaker 3 | [indistinct 00:02:51] mother-in-law. | 2:51 |
Leola Davis Williams | But— | 2:51 |
Charles Houston | Okay. | 2:51 |
Leola Davis Williams | I know he was MC Gray, he had some of his cows. Well the cows just broke out and got in the field and he never did get the cow. And Hosie just raised the cow, just fed them along with his and everything. And he kept the cows so long till the cows had calf and think it wound up with about maybe four or five cows. And in the winter, if you don't just really feed cow, they'll get poor. And Hosie took care the cows and fed them and kept them just sow at them like he did his. Then when he got ready, he come and wanted the cow. And then Hosie that he had took care of them, maybe he should give him one, at least. Give him a cow and from that, I think they got in argument or something. But anyway, he shot him. | 2:57 |
Speaker 3 | He wanted to pick out the best bred cow. The finest cow. | 4:24 |
Charles Houston | Hosie did? | 4:24 |
Speaker 3 | The White man. | 4:24 |
Leola Davis Williams | The White man | 4:24 |
Speaker 3 | Picked the best bred cows, he wanted to pick the best looking cow. | 4:24 |
Leola Davis Williams | And I think that was Hosie's, was— | 4:24 |
Speaker 3 | Huh? That White man wanted the best looking cow. | 4:24 |
Charles Houston | So Grace wanted to— | 4:35 |
Speaker 3 | And he—Mr. Miller knew that was his cow, but the Black man wanted to claim that cow— | 4:36 |
Leola Davis Williams | Was his. | 4:49 |
Speaker 3 | Was his cow. | 4:50 |
Charles Houston | Okay. So the issue was that Grace claimed Miller's cow as his own? Or cows as his own? In other words, he had four or five cows and some calves, but he wanted to take not the ones that were actually his, but the nicest ones he could find and those happened to be Miller's cows? | 4:54 |
Speaker 3 | That's right. | 5:10 |
Leola Davis Williams | And that was—What his name? I said killed Hosie? | 5:12 |
Charles Houston | Grace? | 5:26 |
Leola Davis Williams | That's his wife, she didn't kill him. | 5:29 |
Charles Houston | Oh, MC Grace was his— | 5:32 |
Leola Davis Williams | MC Gray and— | 5:42 |
Charles Houston | MC Gray, okay. | 5:42 |
Leola Davis Williams | And Cal Hall, them was the two men together. MC Gray and Cal Hall. | 5:43 |
Charles Houston | Cal? | 5:45 |
Leola Davis Williams | Mm-hmm, Hall. | 5:46 |
Charles Houston | Okay. | 5:47 |
Leola Davis Williams | Now one—Well, between the two, I know one had to do it. | 5:47 |
Charles Houston | Okay. Shot Miller? | 5:57 |
Leola Davis Williams | Mm-hmm. | 6:00 |
Charles Houston | And Reverend, do you know when this was? | 6:03 |
Leola Davis Williams | Can you recall what year? | 6:08 |
Speaker 3 | I heard his daughter said she had it marked by the time she come out of school—Was she come out of school or coming out of school or she—You go interview Mrs— | 6:18 |
Charles Houston | Yeah, I'm going to try to interview Mrs. Sherrod and she is Miller's daughter. | 6:38 |
Leola Davis Williams | Mm-hmm. | 6:42 |
Charles Houston | But I'm just trying to get an idea of when this was for the purpose of this interview, this was around 1960? Was it— | 6:42 |
Leola Davis Williams | It was in 60. | 6:46 |
Charles Houston | So it was after the sit-ins? | 6:46 |
Leola Davis Williams | I don't know whether it was 65 or 66. | 6:46 |
Charles Houston | So it was late? | 6:46 |
Leola Davis Williams | But that's when we got involved in our march in [indistinct 00:06:47]. | 6:46 |
Charles Houston | Now where did that happen? That did happen here in Worth—In Bacon County. | 6:46 |
Speaker 3 | That happened here. | 6:46 |
Leola Davis Williams | About a mile around that way. | 6:47 |
Charles Houston | Now this Josie Miller was related to Julius Miller, the landowner? | 7:18 |
Leola Davis Williams | She was in-law. | 7:24 |
Speaker 3 | Josie is— | 7:25 |
Leola Davis Williams | Walter Miller. | 7:27 |
Speaker 3 | Walter— | 7:28 |
Leola Davis Williams | Wife. | 7:28 |
Speaker 3 | Miller's wife, and that's Mrs. Sherrod's aunt. | 7:28 |
Leola Davis Williams | Mm-hmm. | 7:34 |
Charles Houston | But I thought the man who owned the cows—The man who was killed was Josie Miller. | 7:35 |
Leola Davis Williams | The man who was killed? | 7:42 |
Charles Houston | Yeah, the Miller who was killed. It was— | 7:44 |
Leola Davis Williams | That was Hosie Miller was killed. | 7:46 |
Charles Houston | Hosie? Okay. | 7:46 |
Leola Davis Williams | Was killed. | 7:46 |
Charles Houston | Okay, sorry. Okay, Hosie Miller was killed. | 8:08 |
Charles Houston | Okay. | 8:08 |
Charles Houston | You said, and that was about a mile from here? | 8:08 |
Leola Davis Williams | Mm-hmm. | 8:10 |
Charles Houston | And you said people started marching in protest? | 8:18 |
Leola Davis Williams | Yeah. Well by that time, Sherrod and them had set up a time and a group and they came down and us met to Grace. | 8:22 |
Charles Houston | I'm sorry, and Sherrod set up a time in place? | 8:37 |
Leola Davis Williams | Aha. | 8:38 |
Charles Houston | And what happened? | 8:39 |
Leola Davis Williams | And we talked about it and he talked with us and told us—He let us know that we had to be nonviolent. | 8:40 |
Speaker 3 | That's right. | 8:52 |
Leola Davis Williams | And it was a good time for quite a while before I could say I'd be nonviolent. I said, "'Cause if anybody hit me, they getting it back." He said, "No, you can't do that." So finally we got together and start marching. I think that was in 66, 65 we started. But 66, that's—And 67 that's [indistinct 00:09:26] when we did. | 8:55 |
Charles Houston | So in other words, it was the murder that kind of sparked things off, there was nothing going on here in terms of civil rights in Baker County before the murder? | 9:29 |
Leola Davis Williams | Well that's what really started it, and as it said let the cat out the water. | 9:43 |
Speaker 3 | You can say openly. It started openly. | 9:49 |
Leola Davis Williams | Yeah. | 9:53 |
Speaker 3 | You all don't try to hide no longer. | 9:55 |
Leola Davis Williams | Mm-mm. | 9:55 |
Charles Houston | And how long was there—I mean, describe for me the process by which people got angry and what happened? I mean, Sherrod came out and he set up a time and place. So is that what happened? Sherrod came out and called a meeting? Contacted people and told them there was going to be a meeting? | 9:59 |
Leola Davis Williams | Well, he came—Yeah, I don't know where. I guess, Sherrod had heard about this, [indistinct 00:10:36]? | 10:26 |
Speaker 3 | Mm-hmm. And the voter registration was a part of the effort from that point. Registering people to vote. | 10:35 |
Leola Davis Williams | Yeah. | 10:49 |
Charles Houston | So part of the protest of the murder became voter registration? | 10:51 |
Speaker 3 | After that. | 10:57 |
Charles Houston | Yes, part of the reaction to the murder— | 10:58 |
Speaker 3 | Yeah, that's right. | 11:00 |
Charles Houston | One of the things was to demonstrate publicly by marching—Is that right? | 11:00 |
Speaker 3 | Mm-hmm. | 11:06 |
Charles Houston | And the other was voter registration? | 11:07 |
Speaker 3 | That's right. | 11:10 |
Charles Houston | Okay. Now where did you march to and where did you march from? And how soon after the killing did the marching begin? | 11:10 |
Leola Davis Williams | Right after the killing, it didn't take long to set it up 'cause everybody was so upset. | 11:19 |
Charles Houston | So when you say right after, how much after? How long? | 11:23 |
Leola Davis Williams | I don't really exactly know how long, but it didn't take two or three weeks. | 11:30 |
Charles Houston | Okay, so it was a matter of days? | 11:35 |
Leola Davis Williams | We soon got together. | 11:41 |
Charles Houston | And how did that happen? I mean, who said we should do something? How did it happen? Did somebody say we have to do something? And who was that and what was it they said needed to be done? How did you make the decision to start marching? | 11:41 |
Leola Davis Williams | Well after Sherrod talked with us, 'cause we didn't know nothing, but he talked with us and he let us did our own judging, whoever or not we wanted to do it. And so we was ready to do whatever. So we just had meetings and met and began, set a date for the start marching— | 11:56 |
Charles Houston | So where did you have the meeting? | 12:26 |
Leola Davis Williams | And what time. Well, after we quit meeting at Grace's house, we met at the church, I think because— | 12:29 |
Charles Houston | I'm sorry, tell me about the meetings at Grace's house. I don't know about Grace House. Where's- | 12:35 |
Leola Davis Williams | Well that's where we set it up at. | 12:39 |
Charles Houston | So you had the first meeting at Grace's house? | 12:41 |
Leola Davis Williams | Maybe the second two or three. | 12:44 |
Charles Houston | Okay. Now what is Grace house? | 12:46 |
Speaker 3 | That's the man house that was killed, Grace's house. That's his wife— | 12:48 |
Charles Houston | I thought his name was Miller. | 12:56 |
Leola Davis Williams | Hosie, but that's his wife. | 12:56 |
Speaker 3 | Grace's last name is Miller. | 12:56 |
Charles Houston | Oh, oh, I'm sorry. At Gray's house—You said, was it Gray or Grace? | 13:02 |
Speaker 3 | Grace Miller. Grace, like grace. | 13:09 |
Charles Houston | Okay, wait a minute. I'm confused now. I'm sorry, Jose is the person who was killed. | 13:11 |
Leola Davis Williams | That was Hosie House. | 13:16 |
Charles Houston | And what was Jose's last name? | 13:18 |
Leola Davis Williams | What Hosie wife name? | 13:19 |
Speaker 3 | Grace Miller. | 13:19 |
Leola Davis Williams | Grace. | 13:19 |
Speaker 3 | Grace Miller. | 13:19 |
Charles Houston | What was Jose's last name? Hosie's last name? | 13:29 |
Speaker 3 | Miller. | 13:32 |
Charles Houston | Miller. And but the first meeting was at Grace's house and he was one of the two—He was the person who tried to take the cows. | 13:33 |
Speaker 3 | He was her husband, it was between her husband that got killed—The cow thing was between the White man and Ms. Grace Miller's husband. | 13:48 |
Charles Houston | Okay. So the first meeting was at Grace Miller's house? | 14:01 |
Speaker 3 | That's right. The man that got killed house. | 14:04 |
Charles Houston | Okay. | 14:06 |
Charles Houston | Okay, and who called that meeting? I mean, how did that meeting come about? Did somebody call it or did everybody just go over there to give condolences and? | 14:07 |
Leola Davis Williams | Well, like I said, Sherrod, he taught with us and he had some of his friends and things and he just know just how to set it up and get started. And he wanted to know how many of us—Or was us willing to do it? And we was willing. So that's how really we got started. | 14:27 |
Charles Houston | Okay. So after the first or second meeting—Wait a minute. | 14:52 |
Charles Houston | After the first or second meeting, the meetings then moved to a different location? | 15:16 |
Leola Davis Williams | Mm-hmm. | 15:21 |
Charles Houston | And what was that location? | 15:21 |
Leola Davis Williams | Well, we all—From that we would meet at St. Mathis Church on 37th. And Pleasant Grove Church, both of them Baptist. | 15:23 |
Charles Houston | And St. Mathis was a Black church? | 15:42 |
Leola Davis Williams | Mm-hmm. | 15:45 |
Charles Houston | And how many people came to these meetings? | 15:52 |
Leola Davis Williams | I don't know, it would be a good bit. | 15:55 |
Charles Houston | All Black? | 15:58 |
Leola Davis Williams | Mm-hmm. | 15:59 |
Charles Houston | So how many would you say? 100? | 16:00 |
Leola Davis Williams | It might not would be 100, but it would be- | 16:06 |
Charles Houston | 50? | 16:09 |
Leola Davis Williams | Well, something like that. Between probably 50 and every Sunday night or every time we meet, it would become more and more and more. | 16:10 |
Charles Houston | Okay. And at these meetings, what did you decide to do at these meetings? | 16:26 |
Leola Davis Williams | We just decided to march. | 16:35 |
Charles Houston | Okay. And where did you decide to march? | 16:38 |
Leola Davis Williams | Where we go from Pleasant Grove downtown. | 16:46 |
Charles Houston | Downtown where? | 17:02 |
Leola Davis Williams | Downtown Newton. | 17:03 |
Charles Houston | But where downtown? To the courthouse? | 17:06 |
Leola Davis Williams | Mm-hmm. | 17:10 |
Charles Houston | So the courthouse was the destination? | 17:11 |
Leola Davis Williams | Mm-hm. | 17:14 |
Charles Houston | And then would you just turn around and march back to Newton—I mean back to Pleasant Grove? | 17:18 |
Leola Davis Williams | To the church, and we'd do that back twice a day in the morning and then in the evening until they start locking us up. | 17:26 |
Charles Houston | And how long does that take? | 17:36 |
Leola Davis Williams | They did take them about a week. | 17:52 |
Charles Houston | Before they started locking you up? | 17:52 |
Leola Davis Williams | Mm-hmm. | 17:53 |
Charles Houston | And you did that— | 17:55 |
Leola Davis Williams | 'Cause see they tried, they wanted us to stop and we didn't stop. They allowed you a chance to go back and don't come back either if you keep marching you would be locked up. | 17:55 |
Charles Houston | Okay. | 18:11 |
Leola Davis Williams | They kept on until they got a bunch of us locked up. | 18:13 |
Charles Houston | So did you march only on Sundays or was this every day of the week that you were marching? | 18:17 |
Leola Davis Williams | During the week. | 18:23 |
Charles Houston | Every day, during the week? | 18:24 |
Leola Davis Williams | Well, yeah, we had it at a daily thing. | 18:27 |
Charles Houston | And how many people would you say were in the marches? | 18:31 |
Leola Davis Williams | Oh Lord, I can remember one time it was about 80 or 90 peoples. | 18:34 |
Charles Houston | Okay. | 18:38 |
Charles Houston | And what about news coverage? Was there news coverage of—Were there reporters there? | 18:44 |
Leola Davis Williams | Reporters? | 18:48 |
Charles Houston | Yeah. | 18:52 |
Speaker 3 | Camera men. | 18:53 |
Charles Houston | TV people, newspaper people? | 18:54 |
Leola Davis Williams | I don't think so, were there? I don't- | 18:56 |
Speaker 3 | It probably was. | 19:04 |
Charles Houston | But you don't remember any media people? | 19:06 |
Leola Davis Williams | They need to allow them in there? Or they couldn't [indistinct 00:19:17] it? | 19:15 |
Speaker 3 | They couldn't [indistinct 00:19:18]. They'll come in. See you were in the streets. They have a right to the streets too. | 19:17 |
Leola Davis Williams | Oh. | 19:30 |
Charles Houston | I'm sorry, there were other people in the streets when you were marching? | 19:30 |
Speaker 3 | I said the newsmen wanted to come and they was in the streets, well they could've come in the street. You probably could keep them out of a special meeting or something, but you can't keep the news media out the street. | 19:33 |
Leola Davis Williams | Out the street. | 19:51 |
Charles Houston | Right. So when you were marching, did you meet any resistance or opposition? I mean, I know the authorities said that they didn't want you there, but I mean, were there hecklers? Did people come and call you names and? | 19:53 |
Leola Davis Williams | Mm-hmm. Yeah, they would do all that. | 20:04 |
Charles Houston | So were there lots of hecklers? | 20:09 |
Leola Davis Williams | Mm? | 20:10 |
Charles Houston | Were there many hecklers? Were there a lot of people out saying negative things about the marchers? Saying— | 20:11 |
Leola Davis Williams | Yeah, there would be a lot of them standing saying things. But see, we'd just be marching and singing, we just didn't pay them too much attention. But finally they started locking up, all them refused to turn around. | 20:21 |
Charles Houston | Okay. | 20:36 |
Leola Davis Williams | They would lock them up. | 20:38 |
Charles Houston | And then what happened? I mean, how long would you stay in jail? | 20:41 |
Leola Davis Williams | They stayed in jail about—And let me see, they was a week in jail before I went in, 'cause I stayed in about maybe a week and three or four days. Me and Josie. And then—But anyway, before we got in jail, that's when they named—They thought they were scaring us out, that's when they named that bloody Saturday. They said, "If any nigger be caught downtown, they going be killed. That going to be a bloody Saturday." They had up a sign saying today is a bloody day. They thought they would back us out, but we went to St. Matthew and we prayed and we sang and then we went on down there. But they had peoples would with ax hounds, ball bats and walking sticks. | 20:44 |
Charles Houston | And these were not policemen? | 21:50 |
Leola Davis Williams | Mm-mm. Well no, the police weren't [indistinct 00:21:56], but they knew about it. | 21:53 |
Charles Houston | Sure. | 21:57 |
Leola Davis Williams | Peoples from Leary and all them old mean crackers, what didn't mind doing something nasty, they was there. And this IGA store Acery, he dead now, but he punished the ax hounds and the ball bats and all that kind of stuff. He punished it to them and that's when they started hitting and hitting in the line. And that's when Sherrod told everybody to turn around, "Go back, go back." So everybody go to the car, but a lot of them got hit and bloody and they had to take some to the doctor. Now that was that bad time. | 21:58 |
Charles Houston | And so this was after many people had been jailed? I mean you were in jail during this bad time? | 22:42 |
Leola Davis Williams | No, this was just before we went. | 23:01 |
Charles Houston | To jail? This was— | 23:06 |
Leola Davis Williams | Wait, now. Bloody Saturday—That must have was—Well it might have been—That was before we went to jail or after—When? Well, how we went to—Oh, that Bloody Saturday, that was before we went to jail. 'Cause after then that next week, that's when they locked up then so many. | 23:07 |
Charles Houston | So Bloody Saturday was before anyone went to jail? | 23:56 |
Leola Davis Williams | I won't say anyone, 'cause some was already in— | 24:00 |
Charles Houston | But it was before you went to jail? | 24:06 |
Leola Davis Williams | Mm-hmm. | 24:06 |
Charles Houston | So who went to jail first? | 24:11 |
Leola Davis Williams | I don't know. | 24:16 |
Charles Houston | Well, I mean— | 24:17 |
Leola Davis Williams | But— | 24:17 |
Charles Houston | Was there an attempt to—I mean, were the first people to go to jail the people who were considered to be the leaders? I mean, how were the first people who went to jail chosen? Were they chosen just because they happened to be marching the first day of arrests? | 24:19 |
Leola Davis Williams | The people who went to jail were those who wouldn't turn around and go back. | 24:39 |
Charles Houston | So some did turn around? | 24:45 |
Leola Davis Williams | And I believe my son was in that first lockup too. I believe he was. | 24:46 |
Charles Houston | Henry? | 24:52 |
Leola Davis Williams | Mm-hmm. | 24:53 |
Charles Houston | So he was just a little boy? | 24:53 |
Leola Davis Williams | He wasn't that little boy, but— | 24:59 |
Charles Houston | I mean he couldn't have been any more than about 14 or 15? He was born in 1950, right? | 24:59 |
Leola Davis Williams | Mm-hmm. | 25:05 |
Charles Houston | And this was around 64, 65, 66, in there were somewhere, right? | 25:08 |
Leola Davis Williams | Mm-hmm. | 25:12 |
Charles Houston | So he was 15 years old? | 25:14 |
Leola Davis Williams | But anyway, he was in that group. | 25:17 |
Charles Houston | And how long did that first group stay in jail? | 25:26 |
Leola Davis Williams | I think they stayed in about two weeks or going on three weeks. | 25:31 |
Charles Houston | And what was it like in jail? | 25:41 |
Leola Davis Williams | It was rough. | 25:47 |
Charles Houston | Well, what do you mean? | 25:48 |
Leola Davis Williams | I mean it was—Well, it just wasn't nowhere—We didn't have nowhere to just lay down and sleep, we had to sit up. The jail was full of teenagers and all. So we grown people, they put us in the little [indistinct 00:26:07] boot they called it. So there wasn't no bed, it was one mattress in there. Wasn't no bed, just a mattress standing up by the wall. And we chunked it out and we just had to sit up against the wall and do what little sleeping we did do. But these men come to get us out, but we wouldn't get out. We wouldn't go out. But what they did—What the law wanted to do to get all the local peoples out and let—Like Sherrod and them and all them stay in so they could dog them around, but we wouldn't come out. We just stayed right there. The Mayors would come like Orange Hawking, Harrison Hawking and Walter [indistinct 00:27:01], Julius William, all them come to bond us out, but we wouldn't go out. | 25:49 |
Charles Houston | So the people who came to get you out were Black people? | 27:13 |
Leola Davis Williams | Mm-hmm. | 27:16 |
Charles Houston | But the purpose of getting you out was to keep the out-of-towners in jail so that the Whites could harass them? | 27:18 |
Leola Davis Williams | Mm-hmm. | 27:26 |
Charles Houston | So were the Blacks who came to get you out working for the Whites? | 27:27 |
Leola Davis Williams | They on their own. | 27:31 |
Speaker 3 | That [indistinct 00:27:33] the mercy of the ones that was in—The citizen that was in, they was judging from if they had suffered to the point that they wanted to come out, they would come out. They wasn't—Nothing like working for the interest of the White— | 27:33 |
Leola Davis Williams | Mm-mm. | 27:52 |
Charles Houston | But they may not have been working for the Whites, but what they wanted to do was to get the local people out of jail and not get the out-of-towners, out of jail? In other words, you mentioned Orange Hawkins and Harrison Hawkins and I guess some other names, and those were local landowners, is that right? | 27:57 |
Leola Davis Williams | Local landowners. | 28:17 |
Charles Houston | And those local Black landowners wanted to bail out of jail local Blacks, is that right? | 28:18 |
Leola Davis Williams | Well, they would have got all out, but see—Wait now how that went? Anyway, they was going to get—They didn't want—After they saw what we wanted, we didn't want to leave the out-of-town peoples in there. And we said, when we come out, everybody was going to be able to come out. | 28:27 |
Charles Houston | Right. | 28:59 |
Leola Davis Williams | So that's when CB then stepped in and came down. | 29:01 |
Charles Houston | And what did CB do? | 29:10 |
Leola Davis Williams | CB was our attorney. Well, he come and the first day, I don't know what happened, but he couldn't—They wouldn't let us out. But the next day he come back and they let us out and we had a little court or something. But everybody come out, weren't nobody left in there, we won't going to come out until everybody come out. | 29:11 |
Charles Houston | So on the second day, everybody was released? | 29:40 |
Leola Davis Williams | Mm-hmm. | 29:44 |
Charles Houston | On the second day that CB King came down? | 29:45 |
Leola Davis Williams | Mm-hmm. | 29:47 |
Charles Houston | And then what happened? Did you continue to demonstrate? | 30:04 |
Leola Davis Williams | No, I think maybe we—After court and everything, I think we—Well then some of the White folks, they began to agreeing to do this and do that and agreed to do some of the things that we wanted then, maybe that's— | 30:08 |
Charles Houston | What were your demands? | 30:32 |
Leola Davis Williams | Well, jobs and whatnot. And put Blacks in some of these office where all the Whites sit and everything. And after they decide to do some of that, 'cause we didn't have no Black in the post office, we didn't have no Black in the bank and no Black in the stoves. None of them offices. | 30:35 |
Charles Houston | And what about voter registration? Was that part of the demand? | 31:05 |
Leola Davis Williams | Mm-hmm. | 31:08 |
Charles Houston | Was it to allow Blacks to register to vote? Was that— | 31:09 |
Leola Davis Williams | Yeah. | 31:17 |
Charles Houston | That was part of the demands of the demonstrators? | 31:17 |
Leola Davis Williams | Well, we really had got them to register them before then, but at first didn't want to register them, but we just—Well we called in some peoples from somewhere and they got that straightened out and so we could register. They went to registering peoples. | 31:22 |
Charles Houston | So in other words, Blacks were able to go downtown to the courthouse and register to vote? | 31:45 |
Leola Davis Williams | Mm-hmm. | 31:54 |
Charles Houston | This was part of the negotiation? | 31:54 |
Leola Davis Williams | Yeah, that was all in it. Because they used to, if you couldn't read, then they wouldn't register you. If you couldn't read or write and they would have you reading paragraphs. | 31:54 |
Charles Houston | Right. | 32:09 |
Charles Houston | Were there any other demands? Were there any demands about a trial for the people accused of murdering Hosie Williams? I mean Hosie Miller. | 32:14 |
Leola Davis Williams | Was there any other demands? | 32:27 |
Charles Houston | Yeah, I mean, when you were marching—You started marching because Hosie Miller had been murdered. So was the purpose of the march to demand the trial and conviction of Miller's killers? Was that part of the demand? Or did it just become a general civil rights protest? | 32:29 |
Leola Davis Williams | Well maybe this would come—Anyway, all that was combined in it. | 33:03 |
Charles Houston | Okay, was there ever a trial? | 33:04 |
Leola Davis Williams | About the killer? | 33:18 |
Charles Houston | Aha. | 33:18 |
Leola Davis Williams | They had a trial or something, but they way that wind up, I really didn't know how that wind up, 'cause they named—Locked them up in Camilla and we really didn't know where they was locked up or so. Some said they just was over there staying with some of their peoples or something, we really didn't know whether they was in jail or what. | 33:19 |
Charles Houston | Okay. So in other words, after CB King came down the second day and got everybody out of jail, a series of negotiations began with some of the local White leaders in order to integrate the post office, the bank of some of the office buildings, some of the stores—Pardon me. And to get Blacks registered to vote down at the courthouse. Is that right? | 33:58 |
Leola Davis Williams | Mm-hmm. | 34:22 |
Charles Houston | Okay. And who actually did the negotiations for the Black community? Who was it who met with Whites in order to work out these arrangements? Who were the Blacks who actually represented the local Black community? | 34:25 |
Leola Davis Williams | Well, some other landowners, like some of them names you got there, Jewish William and Carl Broadway and T Cunning. They would meet with them, they'd get some informations about—From Charles Sherrod and they would meet with him. | 34:49 |
Charles Houston | Okay. | 35:29 |
Charles Houston | Well it sounds as though things didn't change very much at all until this murder and then all of a sudden they changed very rapidly. I mean, listening to what you've said, it sounds like things pretty much were pretty quiet and then this murder happened and suddenly people were very outraged about it and were willing to stand up and to do something about it even though it was dangerous. | 35:29 |
Leola Davis Williams | Yeah, we were. That's when the action really, really took on. Some people, you couldn't get to do anything but after this happened, they was willing and ready and then some we never could get. | 35:59 |
Charles Houston | Now who were the ones who were unwilling to do anything? I mean, who— | 36:15 |
Leola Davis Williams | Well, most of those who live on the White people place, you couldn't get them to do anything because the boss man had told them if they participate they would have to hunt them somewhere to go. So really they had them kind of scared to participate. | 36:20 |
Charles Houston | And did their refusal to participate anger those who were participating? Did the Blacks who were willing to march feel angry with the Blacks who were unwilling to march? | 36:48 |
Leola Davis Williams | Well, we thought a little hard of them, but then we could understand too. If they didn't have nowhere else to stay, we kind of understood. But see, I'd have been crazy enough to just try it out and see,, 'cause they could have found somewhere to stay and believe, but they just— | 37:11 |
Charles Houston | They were just afraid to lose some of livelihood. | 37:44 |
Leola Davis Williams | And some of them were scared to register if they was on the White man place. | 37:47 |
Charles Houston | Okay. | 37:49 |
Leola Davis Williams | We had a problem with that too. | 37:49 |
Charles Houston | Were there many outsiders involved in this? | 37:56 |
Leola Davis Williams | Pretty good. | 37:59 |
Charles Houston | And who were they, for the most part? I mean, when you say pretty good, how many outsiders would you say came in? | 38:01 |
Leola Davis Williams | Well, I really don't just really know [indistinct 00:38:11] remember outsiders, but it was Black and White. Sherrod, he know them and he had worked with them, so he— | 38:09 |
Charles Houston | So were they mostly SNCC people? | 38:15 |
Leola Davis Williams | That's what they were. | 38:15 |
Charles Houston | Where there any— | 38:25 |
Leola Davis Williams | Well, that's what they call them, SNCC. | 38:31 |
Charles Houston | Were there any SCLC people? | 38:37 |
Leola Davis Williams | Meaning what now? | 38:38 |
Charles Houston | Southern Christian Leadership Conference People. People from Atlanta- | 38:42 |
Leola Davis Williams | I think so. Some mixed up, some of them. Sherrod know about them. | 38:45 |
Charles Houston | Okay. And so after that things—I mean, that was really the beginning of the movement here, this was in the middle to late 60s, I guess? | 38:56 |
Leola Davis Williams | Mm-hmm. | 39:11 |
Charles Houston | Okay. | 39:16 |
Charles Houston | Well, I suppose the only other thing I want to ask is whether—Earlier, I mean back in the 50s when you were working on Julius Miller's farm, do you recall when the Supreme Court decided that it was illegal to discriminate on the basis of race and education? Do you recall the crisis in Little Rock about school desegregation? Do you recall those things at all? Back from the back in the 50s? | 39:16 |
Leola Davis Williams | Some of them 'cause, let me see two of my children, two of Grace children and—Anyway, it should have been about maybe 10 or 12, we put them in the White school and they didn't want them to go. But indeed we put them in there. They caught it tough and rough but we made them stayed on in there, they'd come back and tell how they treated them. But we go up there during the day. But from that they've been now going—After they had it tough that school term, then the next school term some more went, so finally we just got it going. | 39:58 |
Charles Houston | And when was that? | 41:04 |
Leola Davis Williams | That was along in time. | 41:04 |
Speaker 3 | That'd been about the 50s. | 41:05 |
Leola Davis Williams | Mm-hmm, something like that. Or maybe it's—Let me see now. The movement started in 65 and 66, so that was along in that time they integrated— | 41:05 |
Charles Houston | 65, 66? | 41:31 |
Charles Houston | Okay. | 41:31 |
Leola Davis Williams | Integrated school. | 41:31 |
Speaker 3 | That's right. | 41:31 |
Leola Davis Williams | Hmm? | 41:31 |
Speaker 3 | That's right, in the 60s. | 41:39 |
Charles Houston | Okay. | 41:39 |
Charles Houston | Let me see if there's anything else I want to ask you. When you were living on the Miller's farm, I mean was it generally considered to be better to share crop for a Black farmer than for a White farmer? Or did it matter? If you were farming for shares, did it matter whether you were on a Black farm—Whether the landowner was Black or the landowner was White? Were you less likely to be cheated if the landowner was Black? Or could it happen no matter who the landowner was? | 41:39 |
Leola Davis Williams | Well, it could happen no matter who the landowner was, but no doubt you wouldn't know. But now after I got grown, I ain't never worked farm with nothing but Black. | 42:30 |
Charles Houston | Okay. And— | 42:47 |
Leola Davis Williams | I didn't farm with no White. | 42:47 |
Charles Houston | And when you were working for Blacks, did you ever have any problems settling up? I mean, did you ever feel that they were taking more than they should? | 42:49 |
Leola Davis Williams | Well, not really, or maybe I didn't know. 'Cause if they said this caused this and that all, I had to just accept it. But I had more confidence in what they would—But although I believe Black took as well as White, but then I just really don't know that. | 43:03 |
Charles Houston | Okay. And the reason you didn't know is 'cause they never showed you the books, they just kept all the records and they never showed you? | 43:39 |
Leola Davis Williams | Well, they would go down the line with some things with you, but they had it wrote down so all you could do, agree. Agree with it. | 43:52 |
Speaker 3 | But I did notice when you started with the Millers—You came from the Millers to this place, how did that happen? | 44:09 |
Leola Davis Williams | How did it happen? | 44:12 |
Charles Houston | Yeah, how- | 44:12 |
Speaker 3 | See you moved from the sharecropper to this house. How did you get this house? | 44:25 |
Leola Davis Williams | Well, through my children. | 44:30 |
Speaker 3 | No sharecropping when they was living in this house? | 44:31 |
Leola Davis Williams | Oh, mm-mm. | 44:45 |
Leola Davis Williams | Because when they was getting this up, I really didn't let them know anything after the house was built and everything. Some of them said that if they'd have knew it, they would've gave me some land over there on the Millers. But see, well I didn't know it and I didn't believe they would do it. So I was doing this, they didn't know. So my daughter, she wrote to all my children, wrote all of them, and she had them to send—They got up about $750. And we bought this land from Budge Hall, Walter Hall up there. We bought this acre land from them and then when they note anything, the house was coming up. So through by my children, this was how I'm here and through FHA. But like I said, when they told me that something they still could have did if they wanted to help me, but they didn't. | 44:45 |
Charles Houston | So in a sense, working for Blacks was marginally better because you had greater confidence that they wouldn't take advantage of you to the same extent perhaps that Whites might take advantage of you. But you still felt that it was possible since they were landowners that they could take advantage? | 46:12 |
Leola Davis Williams | Yeah, they could have. | 46:30 |
Charles Houston | Okay. But you— | 46:31 |
Leola Davis Williams | I felt more comfortable with the Blacks, 'cause the Blacks wasn't going to tell me—Well if they could it wouldn't a whole—No one going tell me, I couldn't do this and I couldn't do that, I participate in this and that. So I would have did it. | 46:33 |
Charles Houston | Right. Now, when you were working for the Blacks, on the land, did you have to keep your kids out of school to work on the farm? Or were your kids able to go to school? | 46:53 |
Leola Davis Williams | Well- | 47:04 |
Charles Houston | Out of school to work on the farm. | 0:01 |
Leola Davis Williams | But I never did plan to do my children. | 0:02 |
Charles Houston | No, you didn't do your children like that. | 0:04 |
Leola Davis Williams | Mm-mm. | 0:04 |
Charles Houston | Okay. | 0:04 |
Leola Davis Williams | Now my children, what I would have them to do when they got in from school, get out their clothes and eat and go on to the field. | 0:04 |
Charles Houston | Okay. I can't think of anything else really to ask you. I think we've covered this pretty well. Is there anything that you'd like to add? Considering what we've been talking about? About life under segregation. | 0:35 |
Charles Houston | I suppose one thing that I should ask that I haven't asked is, before 1960, or I guess actually before 1965, what were the most visible signs of Jim Crow? What were the most visible signs of segregation for you in your community? | 0:51 |
Charles Houston | How were you made most aware of the status of Black people in Baker County? If you went into town, when you went into town, what were some of the ways in which you knew there were two societies, a Black society and a White society? That's not a trick question. I assumed there were signs for White only in places, or for Blacks. Were there things like that? | 1:14 |
Leola Davis Williams | Oh yeah, that was at the courthouse. Like the water [indistinct 00:02:04]. | 1:57 |
Charles Houston | Right. | 2:04 |
Leola Davis Williams | And all they would have "White only." And if we drank water out there, they would try to stop us. We had to drink from, it was a thing out and had a spigot, and the water run kind of all the time. | 2:04 |
Charles Houston | Water fountain. | 2:31 |
Leola Davis Williams | Mm-hmm. But it wasn't like, it was just out in the front of the courthouse, a big old brick something, and we've had to drink water from there. But their fountain was right in the courthouse, and they could drink cool water. But we— | 2:32 |
Speaker 3 | This was just out there, water running. | 2:48 |
Leola Davis Williams | Mm-hmm. | 2:50 |
Speaker 3 | Steady running. | 2:51 |
Charles Houston | Okay. So it wasn't cooled? It wasn't refrigerated? | 2:53 |
Leola Davis Williams | No. | 2:56 |
Charles Houston | What other kinds of symbols of segregation were there, other than the signs on the water fountain? | 3:02 |
Leola Davis Williams | We couldn't use the restroom in the courthouse. | 3:09 |
Charles Houston | So if you had to use the restroom, where could you go? | 3:24 |
Leola Davis Williams | Had to go down there on the river, or somewhere, if you just had to use it while you was in town. | 3:28 |
Charles Houston | So there were no restrooms in town for Blacks? | 3:37 |
Leola Davis Williams | Mm-mm. Not long in that time, but it is now. | 3:52 |
Charles Houston | No, I know. I know. But back in the forties and fifties, there were no restrooms in town. What about Black businesses? Were there any Black businesses in town? | 3:53 |
Leola Davis Williams | Mm-mm. Only Black business we had is right up here, to the Hall. And [indistinct 00:04:09] was running his store then. And we would do a lot of shopping from him. | 3:56 |
Charles Houston | So the only Black business was Hall's? | 4:16 |
Leola Davis Williams | Mm-hmm. | 4:20 |
Charles Houston | And what was the business? | 4:21 |
Leola Davis Williams | Well, well he had a grocery store. And likes gas. | 4:23 |
Charles Houston | Hall's grocery store and gasoline? | 4:30 |
Leola Davis Williams | Mm-hmm. | 4:33 |
Charles Houston | And it was, you said lacks gas? I'm sorry—Grocery— | 4:33 |
Leola Davis Williams | Gas Station. | 4:40 |
Charles Houston | And Hall owned that too. | 4:41 |
Leola Davis Williams | Mm-hmm. | 4:44 |
Charles Houston | And what was Hall's first name? | 4:45 |
Leola Davis Williams | WM Hall Jr. Well, that's Walter Hall. | 4:47 |
Charles Houston | Okay. And that was really the only Black business? No other Black businesses? | 4:51 |
Leola Davis Williams | No, not—Well, not in Newton. | 5:03 |
Charles Houston | Okay. Was there a movie theater here? | 5:05 |
Leola Davis Williams | Huh? | 5:12 |
Charles Houston | Was there a movie theater in Newton? | 5:12 |
Leola Davis Williams | Mm-mm. | 5:13 |
Charles Houston | So Blacks couldn't go to the movies? | 5:16 |
Leola Davis Williams | Well, I guess in Albany or Camilla, they could—I [indistinct 00:05:28] I don't know where—Was there any movies [indistinct 00:05:32]? I don't know. | 5:20 |
Speaker 3 | In those days we could go, but we went upstairs. | 5:36 |
Leola Davis Williams | In all Albany. | 5:48 |
Speaker 3 | In Albany. | 5:48 |
Leola Davis Williams | Wasn't nothing like that down here. | 5:48 |
Charles Houston | Okay. Okay, well, unless there's something else you'd like to add for this period, I can't think of anything else to ask you. I do have the biography form, which I'll have to run out to the car and get, because I'd like to get your help to fill that out. | 5:49 |
Leola Davis Williams | Okay. But I can say, and I must say that we have already come from a long ways. Really, really have. Through God and by God's help, we've made it. | 6:05 |
Charles Houston | So you've seen a lot of change. | 6:22 |
Leola Davis Williams | Everything ain't just right, but it's much better. | 6:24 |
Charles Houston | What do you think is the most pressing problem today that we face? You say everything's not just right. What do you consider to be the biggest problem that needs to be remedied? | 6:34 |
Leola Davis Williams | Well, just like, you still, some people you still can't get them to register to vote. And some peoples are, if they register, they won't vote. It's still little problems. And mostly among our peoples. But what can you do about it? | 6:45 |
Charles Houston | Right. | 7:07 |
Leola Davis Williams | Because if we all was on one accord, we could get things did. And it wouldn't be no problem. But you just can't get some people to see it yet. And I guess it'll always be like that. | 7:13 |
Charles Houston | Well, the civil rights movement made its gains without everybody pooling. There were some people who were afraid to participate. | 7:36 |
Leola Davis Williams | I guess so. | 7:49 |
Charles Houston | And then there were other people who were more courageous and were willing to take chances and take risks. | 7:52 |
Charles Houston | So do you think things are getting better? Or do you think they seem to be getting worse? Do you think the problems are— | 8:03 |
Leola Davis Williams | Well I tell you, sometimes it make you think that we going on on our way back where we were. | 8:15 |
Charles Houston | What makes you think that? | 8:21 |
Leola Davis Williams | Because sometimes you just can't get peoples to do nothing. It discourages you sometimes. But then again you look on the other hand, well you had to go on and use what you have. Peoples is something else. I guess that's— | 8:24 |
Speaker 3 | When you say people— | 8:48 |
Leola Davis Williams | Huh? | 8:51 |
Speaker 3 | When you say people, what you mean? | 8:52 |
Leola Davis Williams | Like you can't get people to, you know— | 8:58 |
Speaker 3 | You mean Black? | 9:02 |
Leola Davis Williams | Yeah. | 9:03 |
Charles Houston | So you say- | 9:06 |
Leola Davis Williams | See by now, I just be feeling like by now, we all ought to almost be together. Maybe we all are never be, but most peoples now, they done seen what happened. And seen what happening now. And there ought to be more industry now than there were back there. | 9:08 |
Charles Houston | But do you feel there's less industry now than there was back then? | 9:29 |
Leola Davis Williams | I about almost believe it is. | 9:38 |
Charles Houston | And why do you think that's true? Do you have any sense of why that might be? | 9:40 |
Leola Davis Williams | Because some—Maybe I can't explain myself. | 9:46 |
Charles Houston | That's okay. You're doing what you're doing real well. | 9:54 |
Charles Hart | Sister. | 9:56 |
Leola Davis Williams | Huh? | 9:59 |
Charles Hart | Williams, do you think that this [indistinct 00:10:03] the Black man's fault? Black, do you think that's our fault, why we are not advancing or getting together? You think the young generation don't care? | 9:59 |
Charles Houston | Could we just get you to identify your voice? Because this is going to be transcribed, and people listening to it won't know who you are. So maybe you could just tell them. | 10:17 |
Charles Hart | I thought you had cut. You still ain't got that—? | 10:28 |
Charles Houston | No, no, it's still running. | 10:30 |
Charles Hart | Okay. I'm Charles Hart, Sister Williams, and Brother Houston. I've just been listening, also, whatever. I'm presently the Director of Metropolitan Jobs Information Service in Albany. And also executive member there. The NAACP there. Chair personnel, the Education and Human Rights Committee. | 10:32 |
Charles Hart | Since you mentioned that we could work together and closer together, I believe that. But I wanted to hear what you had to say about, your reason to think probably not. I got some ideas, but I think it's still the White man's fault. | 11:12 |
Charles Hart | But you mentioned about voting, and I think that we haven't put enough educational process on this, to get people to vote. Tell them what, how important it is to have their own elected officials. | 11:33 |
Charles Hart | See, if we ever got that, then we would almost be forced—And maybe that's the wrong term. But if we ever got enough elected Black officials, then we'd be forced into things to make people do better. That is the price of power structure, we want to have [indistinct 00:12:13]. Economic and everything else. Would somehow come in to being. It may take a long time, when they talk about businesses and all of this. But it wouldn't make a difference. | 11:52 |
Charles Houston | I'm just going to go get the biography form. I'll be right back. | 12:32 |
Leola Davis Williams | Okay. So you think his—Us? | 12:32 |
Charles Hart | Well, it's us. For the most part, when you talk about voting, don't care, don't think you're going to make a difference. See, a lot of Blacks don't think it's going to make a difference. They'll tell you, say, "What has it done for you? You did all this in the sixties, but with where you are now you still don't have this, you don't have that. You're no better off." | 12:40 |
Charles Hart | We get it all the time with this negativeness that takes place from a young Black. I don't know where you, talk, coming in the schools, they say it. We get into different discussions. They'll say, "Well, why should I vote? It ain't going to make no difference no way. Because it hasn't gotten you anything." | 13:10 |
Charles Hart | Now that's the young generation that says that, "You went through all of this 30 years ago, but what has it gotten you? Well, I don't care nothing about voting, it's not going to make any difference." | 13:30 |
Charles Hart | We just have to keep striving forward to teach these people that it will make a difference, to have them go to the polls and vote for who they think may be the better person. | 13:46 |
Charles Hart | And by this, in numbers, they will be able to get someone in office that would represent them. And whether it's Black or White, whether it be somebody of their choice. [indistinct 00:14:16]. Do you agree with that? | 14:00 |
Leola Davis Williams | Well, I guess maybe you're right. But you can talk, and you can talk to them, and you can talk. But seem to me that they just don't care nothing for register no more. And their word is, they going to do what they want to do anyway. But you can tell them, "Well, your vote might make the difference." But they don't believe that. | 14:20 |
Leola Davis Williams | So I don't know what it's going to take. Just still pray, I guess. Pray and talk. | 15:03 |
Charles Houston | Ms. Williams, I've got a form here. It'll take us a little while to fill it out. It's kind of a family biography form. And I need to ask you some questions about yourself and your family. | 15:11 |
Charles Houston | Your last name is Williams with an S, right? | 15:23 |
Leola Davis Williams | Hmm? | 15:26 |
Charles Houston | Your last name is Williams with an S, yes? | 15:27 |
Leola Davis Williams | Yeah. | 15:30 |
Charles Houston | Okay. And that's Leola Davis. Birthdate, 12/10/1919. And what's your address please? | 15:34 |
Leola Davis Williams | Route two box. | 15:42 |
Charles Houston | Okay, route two. There's not a street address, not a number. | 15:45 |
Leola Davis Williams | Mm-mm. | 15:49 |
Charles Houston | Route two. | 15:50 |
Leola Davis Williams | Route two, box 1250. | 15:51 |
Charles Houston | Box 1250. | 15:57 |
Leola Davis Williams | Newton. | 16:01 |
Charles Houston | Newton? | 16:01 |
Leola Davis Williams | Mm-hm. | 16:01 |
Charles Houston | And the zip code? | 16:07 |
Leola Davis Williams | 31770. | 16:09 |
Charles Houston | Okay. And your principal occupation has been farming? | 16:13 |
Leola Davis Williams | Well— | 16:21 |
Charles Houston | Housewife, farming, homemaker? | 16:22 |
Leola Davis Williams | Well now, what about, would I say farming if I done some more work since farming? | 16:28 |
Charles Houston | Well, actually I'm mainly interested in what you were doing during this period, not so much since. | 16:39 |
Leola Davis Williams | Oh, well farming then. | 16:45 |
Charles Houston | Okay. And homemaking. Because actually your sons were, the lease was in your name, or the contract was in your name, but your sons were doing a lot of the farming. You were also homemaking. Right? | 16:47 |
Leola Davis Williams | Mm-hmm. | 17:02 |
Charles Houston | I'm sure I've got your telephone number. Let me just ask you again. Telephone? | 17:17 |
Leola Davis Williams | 734. | 17:23 |
Charles Houston | That's 912, right? | 17:25 |
Leola Davis Williams | Yeah. | 17:26 |
Charles Houston | 912-734. | 17:26 |
Leola Davis Williams | 5191. | 17:26 |
Charles Houston | Okay. And your maiden name is Davis? | 17:34 |
Leola Davis Williams | Mm-hmm. | 17:37 |
Charles Houston | Okay. And do you use your maiden name or do you go just by Leola Williams? | 17:43 |
Leola Davis Williams | Some of my, may be Leola Davis, Williams [indistinct 00:17:54] just Leola Davis. | 17:49 |
Charles Houston | Which one do you prefer? | 17:54 |
Leola Davis Williams | Leola D. Williams. | 17:58 |
Charles Houston | Okay. And you were born in Baker County. | 18:18 |
Leola Davis Williams | Mm-hmm. | 18:25 |
Charles Houston | But not in the city of Newton. Would you say Ichauway, Baker County, or— | 18:33 |
Leola Davis Williams | Just really, well, Baker County, we don't know. | 18:37 |
Charles Houston | Okay. And you are divorced or widowed? Divorced. | 18:45 |
Leola Davis Williams | Widowed. | 18:48 |
Charles Houston | Widowed. | 18:49 |
Leola Davis Williams | Wait, now, I ain't divorced. Well that's a widow, right? | 18:49 |
Charles Houston | Yeah, widowed is— | 18:56 |
Leola Davis Williams | Okay. | 18:56 |
Charles Houston | Your spouse is dead. | 18:58 |
Leola Davis Williams | Mm-mm. He ain't dead. | 18:59 |
Charles Houston | Oh, so you're divorced? Oh you— | 19:02 |
Leola Davis Williams | I hadn't gotten divorced. | 19:02 |
Charles Houston | Okay. | 19:06 |
Leola Davis Williams | What would you call it? | 19:08 |
Charles Houston | Well, I don't know. I guess I'd say you were divorced or—Yeah, separated. But there's no category here for separated. And you're not married. I'm going to say divorced, because there's no category for separated. It's a permanent separation, you've been separated for 40 years. | 19:11 |
Leola Davis Williams | Oh, a long time. | 19:30 |
Charles Houston | Yeah. So I'll say divorced. Maybe, I'll write in separated 40 years. How's that? | 19:31 |
Leola Davis Williams | That's [indistinct 00:19:47]. | 19:41 |
Charles Houston | And what's your spouse's first name? First, middle, and last name? Your former husband? | 19:53 |
Leola Davis Williams | Robert Lee Williams. | 19:59 |
Charles Houston | Okay. And when was he born? If you don't know the month and day, the year, or the approximate year. | 20:09 |
Leola Davis Williams | I don't know, he's two years older than me. | 20:20 |
Charles Houston | So he was born in 1917. And he's still living. | 20:23 |
Leola Davis Williams | Mm-hmm. | 20:28 |
Charles Houston | And was he also born in Baker County? | 20:28 |
Leola Davis Williams | Mm-hmm. | 20:31 |
Charles Houston | And his occupation was farmer? | 20:39 |
Leola Davis Williams | Yeah, mostly. | 20:42 |
Charles Houston | And your mother's first, middle, and last name? | 20:45 |
Leola Davis Williams | My mother? | 20:48 |
Charles Houston | Uh-huh. | 20:50 |
Leola Davis Williams | Liz [indistinct 00:20:56] Taylor Davis. | 20:50 |
Charles Houston | And her maiden name was Taylor? | 21:04 |
Leola Davis Williams | Mm-hmm. | 21:07 |
Charles Houston | Okay. And when was she born? | 21:10 |
Leola Davis Williams | [indistinct 00:21:17] with her, get the Bible there. | 21:16 |
Charles Houston | Do you know how old she was when you were born? | 21:21 |
Leola Davis Williams | No. But I know she was 88 when she passed. | 21:28 |
Charles Houston | And when did she pass? Do you know what year she died? | 21:29 |
Leola Davis Williams | I know the month was in March. I don't know what year. Seems like— | 21:38 |
Speaker 3 | Think about [indistinct 00:21:42] the event that happened during the time that she died. | 21:38 |
Speaker 5 | You're talking about your mother? | 21:42 |
Leola Davis Williams | Mm-hmm. | 22:11 |
Charles Houston | Right. Wondering when she died. | 22:12 |
Leola Davis Williams | [indistinct 00:22:20]. | 22:17 |
Speaker 3 | Sure. | 22:19 |
Charles Houston | She was born in Baker County though, right? | 22:23 |
Leola Davis Williams | Uh-huh. | 22:25 |
Leola Davis Williams | I thought it was in this [indistinct 00:23:56]. | 22:25 |
Charles Houston | Well, if you can't find it, what we can do is we can move on, and it may come back to you later. Or if you don't remember it, we can leave it blank. And maybe you'll come across it, and I can call you or I can get it from you later. But I— | 23:56 |
Speaker 6 | Did your mother die before the fifties? | 24:31 |
Leola Davis Williams | Mm-mm. | 24:31 |
Speaker 6 | Was it before you built this house? | 24:31 |
Leola Davis Williams | Since I was here. | 24:31 |
Speaker 6 | Since you built this house? | 24:31 |
Leola Davis Williams | Mm-hmm. | 24:31 |
Charles Houston | And you came here in '72. | 24:31 |
Speaker 6 | That'll give you some idea. Maybe it was in the mid-seventies. | 24:55 |
Leola Davis Williams | I'm not sure. | 25:03 |
Charles Houston | Well, now you were the fifth child. And you were born in 1919. So your mother, assuming she was—Well, assuming she was about, she was at least 25 when you were born. That means your mother would've been born in—Six—In about 1894. And if she was born in 18— | 25:13 |
Speaker 6 | Well, it could have been '97. I was thinking about it a while ago. Since she was born 1919, we had married, was taking place then. | 26:06 |
Leola Davis Williams | Oh, I think this is it. This old—Tell you was was born March 28th, 1896. | 26:17 |
Charles Houston | So we were kind of in there. | 26:21 |
Speaker 6 | I missed it one year, didn't I? I said '97. | 26:21 |
Leola Davis Williams | Oh, you did? | 26:21 |
Speaker 6 | Yeah. | 26:21 |
Charles Houston | So she was born March 28th, 1896. | 26:21 |
Leola Davis Williams | Mm-hmm. | 26:21 |
Charles Houston | And if she was 88 when she died, she died in '84. Right? She was born in '96 and lived to be 88. She died in '84. | 26:24 |
Charles Houston | And what was your father's full name? First, middle, and last? | 26:38 |
Leola Davis Williams | Will Davis. | 26:55 |
Charles Houston | Will Davis? | 26:55 |
Leola Davis Williams | Mm-hmm. | 26:55 |
Charles Houston | He didn't have a middle name? | 26:56 |
Leola Davis Williams | Mm-mm. | 26:58 |
Charles Houston | And what about his date of birth? Do you have it there? | 27:07 |
Leola Davis Williams | I'm trying to [indistinct 00:27:23] it up. I see—Maybe that's 18— | 27:22 |
Charles Houston | 1891. | 27:22 |
Leola Davis Williams | The 25th of July. | 27:22 |
Charles Houston | Yeah. 1891, 25 July. So July is the seventh month. 7/25/1891. And how old was he when he died? | 27:25 |
Leola Davis Williams | I believe he was 94. | 27:37 |
Charles Houston | 94. So that means he died in '85. He died the year after your mother. | 27:41 |
Leola Davis Williams | Mm-hmm. | 27:47 |
Charles Houston | No. Yeah. He died the year after your mother. He outlived your mother by one year. | 27:48 |
Leola Davis Williams | Something like that. I know it was close. | 28:01 |
Charles Houston | So I'll put 1985. And father's place of birth, Baker County? | 28:04 |
Leola Davis Williams | Mm-hmm. | 28:06 |
Charles Houston | Okay. You're going to need that bobble yet. Because I'm going to ask you all about your brothers and sisters. | 28:09 |
Leola Davis Williams | Oh. | 28:14 |
Charles Houston | And father's occupation was a farmer. | 28:15 |
Leola Davis Williams | You have to have all that? | 28:20 |
Charles Houston | Well, I'm afraid so. Is it handy? Let's start with their names. I know there are a lot of them. There are 14 of you, right? I don't think I have 14 lines. I have to write real small. | 28:22 |
Charles Houston | No, you didn't say 14. What did you say? | 28:30 |
Speaker 3 | Yeah, 14 of [indistinct 00:28:33]. | 28:30 |
Charles Houston | 14 children? | 28:32 |
Speaker 3 | She said she was number five. | 28:49 |
Leola Davis Williams | One, two, three, four—But you know what? | 28:50 |
Charles Houston | What's that? | 28:58 |
Leola Davis Williams | I'm number four. | 28:58 |
Charles Houston | Oh, is that right? Well, that's okay. So you were one of the big kids. Yeah, 14 children. So I have to write really small. Got 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9 lines here. | 29:08 |
Speaker 3 | Got to create five [indistinct 00:29:28]. | 29:26 |
Leola Davis Williams | It was 13. | 29:28 |
Charles Houston | 13 children. | 29:28 |
Leola Davis Williams | Mm-hmm. Well I guess what made me say 14, I always heard her say the first one died. | 29:32 |
Charles Houston | Okay. | 29:33 |
Leola Davis Williams | She was the mother of 14. | 29:39 |
Charles Houston | Okay. So could we start with, I guess maybe only the names of the living children, or however you want to do that. But what I'm going to need altogether are their names, their birth and death dates and their place of birth. I guess they were all born in Baker County, so that part would be easy. | 29:43 |
Leola Davis Williams | I might not know the date there. [indistinct 00:30:11]. | 30:04 |
Speaker 6 | [indistinct 00:30:13] what you just said. About the first one dying [indistinct 00:30:19]. | 30:14 |
Leola Davis Williams | I believe I was hearing her say she lose it. Like you used to replant corn, and I think she lose it that way. So it didn't— | 30:26 |
Charles Houston | Oh, when she was working, and then she lost the child? | 30:37 |
Leola Davis Williams | Mm-hmm. | 30:39 |
Charles Houston | Okay. | 31:05 |
Charles Houston | I can just copy the names out of there, if they're there. | 31:05 |
Leola Davis Williams | What you want— | 31:12 |
Charles Houston | Just the names— | 31:13 |
Leola Davis Williams | [indistinct 00:31:15]. | 31:13 |
Charles Houston | Yeah. And the order of birth. So where do they start? | 31:16 |
Leola Davis Williams | You mean my sisters? | 31:24 |
Charles Houston | Yeah, your sisters and brothers. | 31:25 |
Leola Davis Williams | Mm-hmm. Did you say you want all or those who lived? | 31:27 |
Charles Houston | Well, I'll take all of them, if you have them all. | 31:31 |
Leola Davis Williams | You can start [indistinct 00:31:34]. | 31:34 |
Charles Houston | Okay. That's— | 31:34 |
Leola Davis Williams | Leslie Hudson. | 31:34 |
Charles Houston | Okay. | 31:34 |
Leola Davis Williams | [indistinct 00:31:41] Davis Hudson. | 31:41 |
Charles Houston | Leslie Lee Hudson Davis? | 31:43 |
Leola Davis Williams | Davis Hudson. | 31:45 |
Charles Houston | And she was born January 26th, 1914. | 31:53 |
Leola Davis Williams | Mm-hmm. | 31:57 |
Charles Houston | 1/26/1914. And then Robert Lee Davis. | 31:58 |
Leola Davis Williams | Davis. | 32:04 |
Charles Houston | And he was born 3/17/1915. 3/17/1915. And then— | 32:13 |
Leola Davis Williams | Eligh. Can you see? | 32:23 |
Charles Houston | Yeah. Oh, sure, I can see fine, thank you. E-L-I-G-H. | 32:25 |
Leola Davis Williams | Eligh Davis. | 32:37 |
Charles Houston | Eligh, G-H, Davis. Born 2/1/17. 2/1/1917. And then you. | 32:38 |
Leola Davis Williams | So that makes me the fourth one now. | 32:53 |
Charles Houston | Right. And that's 12/10/1919. 12/10/1919. And that makes you number four. | 32:55 |
Charles Houston | And then Henry Lee Davis. Henry Lee Davis, born 3/16/1922. 3/16/1922. | 33:11 |
Charles Houston | And is that JC Davis? | 33:32 |
Leola Davis Williams | JB. | 33:34 |
Charles Houston | JB Davis. JB Davis, born August, 8/25/24. 8/25/1924. And then Lottie May Davis. | 33:35 |
Leola Davis Williams | Mm-hmm. | 33:56 |
Charles Houston | Lottie May Davis, born 8/25/24. Wait a minute, no. Lottie May born 4/13/25. 4/13—Your mom was busy. Having those babies real close together. | 34:06 |
Charles Houston | And then May Ollie Davis. | 34:24 |
Leola Davis Williams | Well, who we had? | 34:27 |
Charles Houston | I got Lottie May, she was born— | 34:29 |
Leola Davis Williams | Oh, Lottie May. That's right. | 34:30 |
Charles Houston | Yeah, then May Ollie. | 34:31 |
Leola Davis Williams | May Ollie. | 34:32 |
Charles Houston | May Ollie Davis, born April 11, 1926. 4/11/1926. | 34:39 |
Charles Houston | And then Will Davis, Jr. 7/12/33. 7/12/1933. | 34:47 |
Charles Houston | And then Olin Davis. Born 9/28/36. 9/28/1936. | 35:05 |
Charles Houston | And then Virginia Davis. | 35:23 |
Leola Davis Williams | Uh-oh. I led you made a mistake. | 35:32 |
Charles Houston | How? | 35:37 |
Leola Davis Williams | Because Virginia is mine. But I just, guess her name just was wrote in there. | 35:37 |
Charles Houston | Oh, so she's your child. | 35:46 |
Leola Davis Williams | Mm-hmm. | 35:46 |
Charles Houston | Okay. So I'll just cross her out and put her down. Because that's the next question. Is she the first of your children? | 35:49 |
Leola Davis Williams | Mm-hmm. | 35:56 |
Charles Houston | And how many of those will there be? You have one—These are all yours? Lizzie? | 35:57 |
Leola Davis Williams | Mm-mm. These, the balance are my mother's. | 36:03 |
Charles Houston | Oh. | 36:08 |
Leola Davis Williams | Just leave Virginia out and get—Lizzie come after Olin. | 36:09 |
Charles Houston | Okay. Lizzie O. Davis. And she was born 12/29/39. So there's a big gap. 12/29/19 39. It's a three-year gap. | 36:11 |
Charles Houston | And then LD Davis. LD Davis. Born 4/5/40. 4/5/1940. | 36:33 |
Leola Davis Williams | So that's it. That's- | 36:50 |
Charles Houston | Okay, now, well now we're going to need your kids too. Now are they all here now? Now, Virginia is your child, right? | 36:51 |
Leola Davis Williams | Mm-hmm. | 36:59 |
Speaker 6 | Can I ask a question? | 36:59 |
Leola Davis Williams | Mm-hmm. | 37:01 |
Speaker 6 | Did he make one mistake or two mistakes? The one that's born 1933, who was that? Was that— | 37:03 |
Charles Houston | Will Davis, Jr. | 37:10 |
Speaker 6 | Okay. | 37:12 |
Charles Houston | Was born 1933. One, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten, eleven, this is 12. Virginia would've been 13, but that's— | 37:13 |
Leola Davis Williams | Yeah, but she's mine. | 37:24 |
Charles Houston | Okay. So there were 12 kids. | 37:24 |
Leola Davis Williams | Well, 13 with the one. | 37:30 |
Charles Houston | Well, but I've got 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12 names without Virginia's. | 37:33 |
Leola Davis Williams | Mmm. Now what else you [indistinct 00:37:55]. | 37:53 |
Charles Houston | Well, if you have them, I'd like their death dates. If any of your brothers and sisters have died. But if you don't know that, I can move on to the place of birth, where they were born. Were they all born here in Baker County? | 37:55 |
Leola Davis Williams | All born in Baker County. But I don't have their death dates. | 38:09 |
Charles Houston | That's okay. | 38:13 |
Leola Davis Williams | [indistinct 00:38:23]. | 38:13 |
Charles Houston | So maybe we could move on to your children. | 38:25 |
Leola Davis Williams | Oh, okay. | 38:28 |
Charles Houston | How many children did you have altogether? | 38:30 |
Leola Davis Williams | 10. | 38:32 |
Charles Houston | Okay. And so- | 38:36 |
Leola Davis Williams | You've got Virginia. | 38:36 |
Charles Houston | No, I didn't write her down yet. So, go back, was she the firstborn? | 38:38 |
Leola Davis Williams | Mm-hmm. | 38:41 |
Charles Houston | So Virginia, [indistinct 00:38:44] 10. So I've got to double up here. V-I-R-G-I-N-I-A. And what's Virginia's last—Virginia Davis? | 38:42 |
Leola Davis Williams | Mm-hmm. | 38:54 |
Charles Houston | So her last name is Davis? | 38:57 |
Leola Davis Williams | Yeah. She'd been- | 38:59 |
Charles Houston | And what's her birthdate? | 39:01 |
Leola Davis Williams | Was it in there? | 39:06 |
Charles Houston | Yeah. It was January 5th, '37. So it's 1/5/1937. And were these children all born in Baker County too? | 39:07 |
Leola Davis Williams | Mm-hmm. | 39:18 |
Charles Houston | Okay. | 39:19 |
Leola Davis Williams | We ain't never left Baker County, but they did [indistinct 00:39:26] they got grown. | 39:23 |
Charles Houston | It makes my job easy. So James— | 39:28 |
Leola Davis Williams | Oh, now, right here. You start right here. | 39:31 |
Charles Houston | Okay. James R. | 39:32 |
Leola Davis Williams | James Robert Williams. But James R. | 39:34 |
Charles Houston | James Robert Williams. And he was born April 18, 1939. 4/18/1939. And Lessie May. Lessie Millie? | 39:39 |
Leola Davis Williams | Lessie Williams. | 39:39 |
Charles Houston | Lessie Willie. | 39:40 |
Leola Davis Williams | William—Well, that's where they- | 39:40 |
Charles Houston | Oh, Williams. Okay. Lessie. | 39:42 |
Leola Davis Williams | It's supposed to be Williams. | 40:04 |
Charles Houston | Lessie Williams. Born 16 May. May 16, 1940. And— | 40:15 |
Leola Davis Williams | JC Williams. | 40:25 |
Charles Houston | JC Williams. | 40:26 |
Leola Davis Williams | I never could have thought all this. | 40:31 |
Charles Houston | Born June 11, 6/11. 6/11— | 40:35 |
Leola Davis Williams | [indistinct 00:40:42] long gone. | 40:41 |
Charles Houston | —1942. | 40:42 |
Charles Houston | And Shirley Williams. Born July, 7/14/1944. 7/14/1944. And- | 40:45 |
Leola Davis Williams | Benjamin. | 41:08 |
Charles Houston | Benjamin Williams. Born 5/12/46. 5/12/1946. | 41:08 |
Charles Houston | Roosevelt Williams. Roosevelt Williams, born 11/18/48. 11/18/1948. I know we've got him close to Henry. | 41:44 |
Charles Houston | Eugene H. Williams. Born 25 July, 1950. 7/25/1950. And— | 41:54 |
Leola Davis Williams | Herman. | 42:16 |
Charles Houston | Herman. So your son's name is Herman, not, I thought it was Henry. | 42:19 |
Leola Davis Williams | That's another one. | 42:23 |
Charles Houston | Oh. | 42:24 |
Leola Davis Williams | Herman and Henry. | 42:24 |
Charles Houston | Herman Williams. Born. 2 February, February 2nd, 2/2/52. 2/2/1952. Okay. And Eddie D.— | 42:29 |
Leola Davis Williams | And Eddie D. | 42:53 |
Charles Houston | Williams. Born 3/19/1954. Now, where's Henry? | 42:54 |
Leola Davis Williams | Henry? | 43:10 |
Charles Houston | Yeah. | 43:12 |
Leola Davis Williams | You got him there. Eugene. | 43:13 |
Charles Houston | Oh, Eugene H. | 43:14 |
Leola Davis Williams | He was really named Henry Eugene. | 43:15 |
Charles Houston | Okay. But it's Eugene H. there. | 43:19 |
Leola Davis Williams | Yeah. That's— | 43:21 |
Charles Houston | Okay. | 43:21 |
Leola Davis Williams | Where they got it. | 43:21 |
Charles Houston | Okay. And all your children are living? | 43:28 |
Leola Davis Williams | Mm-hmm. All [indistinct 00:43:33]. | 43:31 |
Charles Houston | And how many, I know you have at least one grandchild. Because I met her. How many grandchildren do you have altogether? | 43:32 |
Leola Davis Williams | It ought to be about in there. Might be reaching their fifties. I had been saying I was going to sit down and count them all one day. But, I know it's in the forties. | 43:45 |
Charles Houston | So shall I put down forties or fifties? 40 to 50. Between 40 to 50? | 43:56 |
Leola Davis Williams | Uh-huh. | 44:00 |
Charles Houston | Okay. | 44:00 |
Leola Davis Williams | And maybe about nine great grand. | 44:00 |
Charles Houston | We don't have to list great— | 44:14 |
Leola Davis Williams | You don't have—Oh, okay. Good. | 44:14 |
Charles Houston | Spare you that part. Now, this next one should be really easy. Because it says, I have to list all the places you've ever lived and when you lived there. So I'll just put down Baker County. | 44:18 |
Leola Davis Williams | Baker County, all [indistinct 00:44:32]. | 44:28 |
Charles Houston | And that'll be 1919 to present. From the time you were born to now. | 44:38 |
Leola Davis Williams | Still here. | 44:47 |
Charles Houston | Now you attended the Green Grove School? | 44:49 |
Leola Davis Williams | Mm-hmm. | 44:55 |
Charles Houston | Green Grove? | 44:55 |
Leola Davis Williams | Yes. | 44:56 |
Charles Houston | And that's in Newton? | 45:03 |
Leola Davis Williams | Well— | 45:05 |
Charles Houston | Baker County. | 45:07 |
Leola Davis Williams | Yeah. Newton. | 45:07 |
Charles Houston | And you went there from grade one to grade seven, right? | 45:15 |
Leola Davis Williams | I went until sixth grade. | 45:20 |
Charles Houston | Okay, so grade one to grade six. You were born in 1919. You probably started there about what, age seven? Age six? | 45:23 |
Leola Davis Williams | School? Probably five. | 45:31 |
Charles Houston | Okay. So you would've started there in 1924. 1924. And you went there until what, age 15? 16? | 45:36 |
Leola Davis Williams | 16, something like that. | 45:48 |
Charles Houston | 16. And you would've been 16 in 1935. And you completed, you went through grade six, you said? | 45:51 |
Leola Davis Williams | I was promoted to six. | 46:04 |
Charles Houston | Okay. | 46:10 |
Leola Davis Williams | I didn't go through grade six. | 46:10 |
Charles Houston | Okay. So it says list here— | 46:17 |
Leola Davis Williams | But I said thank God, I went back in my, what, forties or something, and got my GED. | 46:19 |
Charles Houston | Oh, did you? | 46:29 |
Leola Davis Williams | Mm-hmm. I have my diploma over here. | 46:31 |
Charles Houston | Okay. So you earned, and what year did you earn that? | 46:35 |
Leola Davis Williams | Hmm? | 46:43 |
Charles Houston | What year? | 46:44 |
Leola Davis Williams | I believe that's, is that '87? Do you see it right there? Couldn't have been '87. Was it? You see the GED diploma? | 46:48 |
Speaker 6 | Isn't this it here? | 46:57 |
Leola Davis Williams | That's—Down. This— | 47:01 |
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