Gertrude King interview recording, 1994 July 28

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Paul Ortiz	Mrs. King, could you just tell me about where you were born and about the area that you grew up in?	0:07
Gertrude King	Yes. I was born in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, and of course, the west section of Philadelphia. And I guess, I would've been considered middle class. My father was a businessman. He had his own garage. He was a mechanic. In fact, he was an excellent mechanic. He had his own business in partnership with a nephew of his. And unfortunately, my father developed tuberculosis when I was seven. I had a sister, 8, and a brother, 10, when he died.	0:13
Gertrude King	This meant, of course, my mother wouldn't have him to rely on anymore, because she did not work. So of course, he had managed to save a pretty good bit of money for that time, and he cautioned her before he died, not to remove the funds from that particular bank, because he felt that that was the best place to leave it. And of course, upon the advice of other people, she did move it. And of course, the bank folded. And the one she moved it from, nothing ever happened to that.	0:57
Gertrude King	So we were sort of left with Mother to take care of us after Father had really made sure that she wouldn't have to go to work, perhaps. So all Mother knew how to do, of course, was housework, because that's wat she did for us. So she had to go out and work for other people. It was really difficult because during the winter, we had snowstorms. Of course, she would have to go as long as the trolleys were running. Of course, when my father lived, we always had a nice car, but she had to sell that after he died. Well, for one reason was she didn't know how to drive. Unfortunately, she relied on my father for just about everything.	1:35
Gertrude King	Mother wasn't particularly educated. I think she went through grammar school through eighth grade. But my father went on to Hampton, Virginia to the, I guess you would call it, vocational school, because that's how he learned how to fixed cars. His side of the family were educated people. And of course, my mother's side were just fairly educated.	2:29
Gertrude King	So after Father died, Mother struggled to raise three of us. My father wanted us to study music. I remember when, I guess I must have been about six years old, he brought a violin home and he was playing it. I don't know whether he could play or not, because at that age, I thought it sounded beautiful. Maybe it was terrible. I don't know. But anyway, a friend of my father's was a music teacher. Well, he was the type of music teacher who taught every instrument, just about. So he told my mother if she would buy the instruments, he would teach us free. That was really a godsend because there were three of us.	3:01
Gertrude King	So my brother studied the trumpet, and then, I'm sorry, first, the violin. And then I had the piano. My sister had piano. Maybe about a year later, we decided we wanted to play something else along with it, so I chose the violin, which we already had, and my brother chose trumpet, which of course, Mother had to buy, and my sister, trombone.	3:49
Gertrude King	When my sister was about—she learned to play the trombone so well—when she was about 11, she was playing extremely well. I remember pictures in the paper as being the first and only child— girl trombonist, and of course, at her level, playing so well.	4:18
Gertrude King	We all played through school, through elementary and junior high. And at the end of junior high, my sister had developed a problem with her lungs, and so she had to stop playing. But my brother and I continued. And of course, I don't know whether you want all this or not, but before my sister had developed the problem, I forgot to say, the three of us were known as the Famous Williams Trio because my name was Williams. And we would play over the radio. I would play the piano, and my brother, the trumpet, and my sister, the trombone. So we played pretty often over the radio. So we became rather famous around our section, anyway, of town. We—	4:39
Paul Ortiz	That was during the 19—	5:37
Gertrude King	That was like 1920, say 1930.	5:37
Paul Ortiz	1930.	5:42
Gertrude King	Say 1930. I was born in '23. Okay. About 1930-something. Early '30s.	5:43
Paul Ortiz	Wow.	5:48
Gertrude King	Yeah, early '30s.	5:48
Paul Ortiz	Do you remember which stations?	5:49
Gertrude King	WCAU, KYW. They're the only two that I remember. And we gave recitals at the church concerts, at different small churches. And I remember it was so funny, the placards, I wish I had saved them. They would say, "Stop, look, and listen. The Famous Williams Trio will appear here at a certain time, blah, blah, blah," like that. So we earned a little money like that, and we were happy, of course, no matter what we earned, because we enjoyed doing it so much.	5:52
Gertrude King	We would sing together. Three of us would sing together, and then we would play our instruments together, and then we would play a solo on our special instruments like that. Yeah, I guess it was more like a circus, but the people really enjoyed it. And we had a ball, of course. It was really a lot of fun.	6:27
Gertrude King	Of course, it was so funny, while other children were out playing, we were in the house, practicing. And of course, there was always a problem. We only had one piano. My sister wanted to practice when I wanted to practice, seemingly. But anyway, we managed it because Mother would be out working, and she always told us, "You make sure that you practice. In fact, don't go out until I come back." So we spent our time studying our schoolwork and of course, practicing, which we really enjoyed. But my brother would sneak out sometimes. He was the oldest. But she never did catch him.	6:45
Gertrude King	Then, my sister married quite early. She married at age 17. And my brother and I, of course, married late. I married quite late. My brother was about 25, but I was 28. I was blessed with a set of twins, and then a single girl about three years later. And my sister also had a set of twins, twin boys, and I had a boy and girl. And then she had two girls, two single girls like that. So you might want to break in and ask me some questions. I'll go on forever and ever.	7:23
Paul Ortiz	No, this is fascinating.	8:06
Gertrude King	Okay.	8:07
Paul Ortiz	Now, did you carry your aspirations forward in terms of music?	8:10
Gertrude King	Yes. Of course, I am the one— Let's see, all of us studied maybe about 8 or 10 years. I mean the others. But I went on, of course, to a music school. Luckily, well I guess, maybe unlucky for the concert artist, but when the war broke out, World War II broke out in Europe, we had an influx of European teachers. Most of them lived in New York, but they would come over to what we called, well, we had a school called the Settlement Music School. That's where children wanted to, mainly, who could not afford to pay at that time $10 and $15 per lesson. So I was lucky enough to get into that school and studied with one of the finest teachers in Europe, really, Helene Berer and another teacher, Irma Volpe, and I became an accomplished pianist.	8:13
Gertrude King	But I didn't go on to college. I decided I didn't want to go to college. I just wanted to play concerts. And I did. Not on a great big scale. No one probably has heard of Gertrude Williams, except in that area and maybe a little New York and Jersey. But I did give concerts.	9:33
Gertrude King	My sister and brother didn't go on after high school. But I remember I used to, in the summers when I was in high school, I'd practice six and eight hours a day. I loved it so very, very much.	9:50
Gertrude King	Anyway, I guess I need to skip to coming to Florida, finally. First of all, I met my husband, who was at that time, well, he was singing with the De Paur Infantry Chorus. That was a chorus of 33 Black men. It had been started in the service, although my husband wasn't in the service.	10:08
Gertrude King	But the director, Leonard De Paur, gave these wonderful concerts. In fact, they would give concerts all over the United States. Well, not really in the South. They refused to go below the Mason-Dixon Line because they refused to play to segregated audiences. So what they would do when they were asked to come this way, they would tell them that they would have to charge them twice the amount. And of course, they were managed by Columbia and presented by Hurok, who was a great— Let's see, what do you call him? Anyway, he was the person in charge of Marian Anderson and great people like that, Hurok. So they would tell other people in the South, they would have to charge twice as much. So quite naturally, that would be too much, because it was a huge amount.	10:33
Gertrude King	But anyway, I met my husband, and of course, he was a tenor, operatic tenor. After we married, he traveled for a little while, maybe about three years. And then when I became pregnant with the twins, he knew he had to settle down. So he went on and got his Master's at Columbia University. And while there, he met Dr. William P. Foster, who's the head of the band here. So he asked him to come here to work. So we said, "Well, we'll come down for a couple of years," and that was 40 years ago—	11:36
Paul Ortiz	Wow.	12:14
Gertrude King	—in June. So we've been here all these years, and we raised these children. And I taught at Ruediger's— Wait, I'm getting ahead of myself. I decided to go back to school after my youngest was in school. I decided to go back to school and get a degree, which I did at A&M. And I taught at Ruediger Elementary School for 21 years.	12:14
Gertrude King	But prior to that, I'm sorry, when I first came here to Florida, I, let's see, I taught, believe it or not, at Florida A&M University, the advanced piano students. And they needed someone in violin because the teacher had gone away to earn a higher degree. So with my experience and I guess my ability to give concerts so forth and so on, they overlooked the fact that I didn't have a degree at that time. So I stayed there for two and a half years, and then I went to Ruediger Elementary School and stayed there for 21 and three-quarter years, like that. So four years ago, I retired.	12:47
Gertrude King	I taught music there at Ruediger. I taught general music. And of course, I had a chorus, and we always had big concerts.	13:36
Gertrude King	But prior to teaching at A&M, I had a large piano class here at my home. And of course, I gave wonderful concerts. I had wonderful students. During those days, the students just really loved to excel. The interesting part of it, one of the interesting, I should say, aspect of it was that I had students who came from Live Oak. I had one little girl, her parents would bring her from Live Oak, which is about 90 miles or so from here.	13:45
Gertrude King	Every Saturday morning, she would be here at ten o'clock sharp. And I had a couple of students who would come in from Bainbridge, Georgia, which is about 50-some miles from here. And Thomasville, which is about 30 some miles from here. Thomasville, Georgia. And also Quincy, which is only about 25 miles. Quincy, Florida. It was really amazing the parents were that much interested in their children studying the piano.	14:27
Gertrude King	Of course, at that time, possibly no White teacher would accept them. That's why they had to come so far. And they considered me an excellent teacher. I don't know, maybe I am, maybe I'm not. But I have had many students to go on, become very successful.	15:01
Gertrude King	But I thought that was just so— I didn't realize how far Live Oak was until many years after that child stopped coming, because she grew up, of course, and went on to college and became a music teacher herself. But I had no idea that she was coming that far. And especially her, she was a very good student. And Bainbridge, of course I knew Bainbridge, Georgia was about 50 miles or so. That particular kid became— I think he got his doctorate in music. And of course, there were several from Quincy and Thomasville, and some of them went on to become musicians. So it really made me feel pretty good about that. I felt great about that.	15:19
Gertrude King	And of course, I still teach on a very, very limited basis. I have a very small class, because I am retired. But they won't let me retire completely, because some of the children's children now come to me. It's really very, very interesting. Of course, I'm a very, very strict teacher, but they don't seem to mind. They seem to want that discipline.	16:12
Gertrude King	And my children, of course, each studied music. Now I have a son who's in the business. I guess you see these records on the wall. He is a backup singer. Well, he's also a soloist too. But these particular records, they're platinum records from where he worked with Billy Ocean on his record, and I think one is David Bowie, and the Thompson Twins, and I think the other one is Power Station. Well, he played a beautiful, beautiful french horn and guitar and trumpet, but he ends up as a composer, of course, and singer of pop music.	16:37
Gertrude King	My husband and I are both classical, and he's just the opposite. And of course, he's earning very good money. In fact, he just came off of the road with Duran Duran. Have you heard of Duran Duran? Yes, with Duran Duran a few months ago. But he primarily works in the studios in New York, and he also does commercials. He has a little boy who also has a couple commercials. Of course, he's seven years old.	17:34
Gertrude King	Let's see. You better ask me some questions now. I'm getting stuck.	18:11
Paul Ortiz	Now, was your family originally from Philadelphia?	18:15
Gertrude King	No, my family originally was from Maryland. My father was from Princess Anne, and my mother was from Salisbury, Maryland.	18:18
Paul Ortiz	Do you know about what time they—?	18:29
Gertrude King	I'm sorry, Fruitland. My mother's from Fruitland. Pardon me.	18:32
Paul Ortiz	Do you know about what time they moved from there?	18:34
Gertrude King	They moved from there, let me see, before my brother was born. So they must have moved from there— They used to work together on an estate in Wilmington, Delaware, for people called Rascobb. I think it's R-A-S-C-O-B-B. I'm not sure. But they were wealthy people. And in fact, my brother was the first Black baby to be born on their estate, I remember. So that was in— Let's see, he is 74. Okay, so that was in 1920, was it? 1920. As soon as the baby was born, they moved to Philadelphia. So that's when they moved from the South, because Wilmington, Delaware is still South, right? So they must have moved in 1920, or at the latest, 1921.	18:38
Gertrude King	And then he began working with someone on cars. Of course, Black people didn't have many cars back in the '20s, you see. So most of his customers were White people. But he worked for a short time with this man whose name is Mr. Bradley, I remember. And then he opened his own garage with his nephew, because both of them had gone to Hampton, Virginia to school.	19:44
Paul Ortiz	Did they talk about their upbringing or about their experience much?	20:18
Gertrude King	Well, my mother especially, because, see, my father died when I was so young. But of course, Mother lived until 1969. And yeah, she told me she was born and raised on a farm. And my father lived in the city. Well, as city as you can get in Princess Anne. No, no, he was raised in Salisbury, Maryland, but born in Princess Anne. That's right. Which wasn't that far. But Salisbury, Maryland is more city-like. They have more advantages.	20:24
Gertrude King	But Mother did talk quite a bit about having to get up early in the morning and work, feeding the chickens and all of that. And her father had a very successful farm. And of course, I think she was very glad to get away from the farm life, because she really wanted an education, but something happened toward the end. My grandfather lost his farm. He was very kindhearted, a little too kindhearted, and he was trying to help someone else out by taking out a loan on his farm, and he lost it. So Mother couldn't go on with her education. So that was that. But she was a very intelligent woman and a lot of common sense. She guided us, well, she really encouraged us to really be somebody.	21:12
Gertrude King	So my brother went onto the service, and when he came out, he became a manager of a grocery store, but he managed the fruit section. My sister, of course, married fairly early, but she was a corrections officer in Jersey. And of course, she died last August of lung cancer and esophageal cancer, a heavy smoker. It's just one of those things. But my brother's living in Philadelphia still. And of course, I'm way down here by myself. They were nervous when I came down so far.	22:19
Paul Ortiz	Now, I was just going to ask if your family had experiences with discrimination—	23:07
Gertrude King	Yes.	23:14
Paul Ortiz	—in Philadelphia?	23:14
Gertrude King	Yes, I did too. Yes, yes. I remember a specific incident. There's a big department store called John Wanamaker's, and they had an exclusive restaurant called the Crystal Tea Room. They never served Blacks there. They didn't want Blacks there. So I used to go, sometimes I would get a friend of mine to go with me, but not many Black people had the nerve. But I was a very nerve-y person. And always, I didn't mind a lot of controversy. I remember I would go up to the Crystal Tea Room and it was always so crowded, but they would seat me almost immediately and wait on me so fast. And I'd have a nice table all by myself, and I would just sit and enjoy my food and take the longest time, because I knew it was really bothering them. And sometimes I would get a friend to come up.	23:17
Gertrude King	And the funniest thing, I remember this friend who came with me, we noticed the hostess had on a black dress and white collar. So when she would signal for a table when we'd come up, she would do like this to her dress, means for two Black people. And of course, they would try to seat us in the back and we'd say, "No, no, we want to be in the center of things." So then they'd have to do that because they didn't want a case on their hands. And you'd be surprised. It was terrible there.	24:32
Gertrude King	They were more subtle with it than down South, because you knew what was happening. And I never will forget. I went to a fitness center, I guess. No, not fitness center. It wasn't a fitness center. It was where they actually, in a way, it was, but it was called something else. I wish I could remember. Some kind of salon where they really pampered you and you did exercise. I guess it was a fitness center, but they didn't call it that then. And they massaged you and they gave you exercises if you wanted to lose weight and so forth. So I went to this place. I heard about it on the radio and also read about it in the paper.	25:17
Gertrude King	So I noticed when I went into a place, they ushered me not into the main part of the salon, but out in the hall. She said, "Have a seat there." The woman thought I was coming for a job, and I was dressed so nicely in my best suit, I couldn't believe it. So I told her, "No, no." I said, "No, I don't need a job." I said, "I'm a music teacher. I already have a job." I said, "I want the service that you have." She says, "No, we can't work on you. Your skin is tougher. We can't work the same way with you." I said, "Really?" I said, "My goodness." I had her to go on to explain more. So she said, "No, no, we just don't have, I wouldn't know how to work on you. I wouldn't know how to work on you." I can't remember exactly what I told her then, but it didn't bother me too much, because I think I had an idea that they didn't want me.	26:12
Gertrude King	Of course, most of these places, I knew, didn't want me, but I said, "Well, I'll go anyway." And if I heard there was going to be a beauty session where they make you up and tell you what to put on your face and blah, blah, blah, I would go. Because, well, most of my friends worked in the morning, but of course, I didn't, because my work began, say, at two o'clock, from 2:00 to 6:00. I really had it made just four hours. Or maybe 2:00 to 6:30, then I was finished. So these meetings would be in the morning, generally. And of course, I would be the only Black there. And I know it just annoyed these beauty specialists to have me sitting up there. And of course, I would ask different questions and so forth and so on.	27:22
Gertrude King	I remember once, of course, with Black people, the bottom lip is lighter, generally, if you take notice. And maybe the White people's lips too inside, but it's more noticeable because we're Black people. So I said, "Now, what kind of lipstick should I use?" I said, "because my bottom lip is lighter than my top." So she says, "See me after class. See me after class." I was really tickled. I was really tickled. I said, "She's uncomfortable with it. She's uncomfortable." So she saw me after class and she suggested that I wear real red lipstick. Well, I knew that wasn't it. So I thanked her anyway. But I would always go to these things that— Is that rain? I think I have windows up somewhere. Hold it, just— What about your car?	28:17
Gertrude King	He wears his hair like you wear yours. Well, of course, now he has a bald in the back. And although he's a little unlucky he started to bald early, but he has still enough back there and everything. But he said when he first moved to Upper Montclair, New Jersey, there are not many Blacks there, and he was out in his yard, well, he said he had an ax in his hand because he was trying to mark certain trees to cut. And of course, he didn't have a shirt on. He had his shorts and everything. So next thing you knew, the police were there. Someone had called, said this Black man was going around with an ax, and they were afraid that he was danges. It's so funny. And then he was out doing something in his backyard another time, and so they called the police again. That was when he first moved in. So the police told him, they said, "Don't they know that you own this property yet?"	29:07
Gertrude King	But it was really funny. He's had some funny experiences because there's so few in Upper Montclair, New Jersey, and it's rather expensive. But it's really so funny.	30:18
Gertrude King	And see, he can't get by by them saying, "He's not Black, I think he's Spanish or something." When you see him, you know he's a Black man. There is no doubt in your mind, because he's ebony. He's a very handsome man, but he is ebony.	30:32
Gertrude King	And he loves BMWs. He loves all BMWs. So he has sent us a couple. I have one out there, which of course, isn't in such good shape. But he sent my husband a maroon one with— It's really a '74, but it looks like new because this wonderful paint job and everything. And of course, the new wheels and special wheels and everything really looks good.	30:47
Gertrude King	But anyway, my son has a white convertible, he had sent from France, he found in France. And then he has a sky blue coupe. Yeah, and my husband's is a coupe too. His is a coupe. But he has this sky blue coupe. It's really gorgeous. And then he has— Well, anyway, he has altogether, five different ones. So he said some people saw him driving around in the white convertible, and he said he overheard a man say to his, I guess, son, said, "See, that's a drug dealer there." He said it made him so angry. I told him, I said, "It shouldn't make you angry," I said. But he does fit the profile of what the police say is a profile of a drug dealer. It's sad, but it's really funny. So I told him, I said, "You know what you are." I said, "You know you're paying a good bit of taxes, almost more than your share." Yes, indeed. But yeah.	31:19
Paul Ortiz	So now, you were talking, Mrs. King, about how you would challenge discrimination.	32:27
Gertrude King	Yes.	32:32
Paul Ortiz	Now, was that something that you began doing at an early age?	32:33
Gertrude King	Challenging?	32:41
Paul Ortiz	Mm-hmm.	32:43
Gertrude King	No, not really. I suppose I was in my teens here. Early teens, I guess. Yes. Yes, about maybe, well, no, let's see. I couldn't say in my early teens. Mother's very careful about us then. I'll say at 18. Anyway, at 18.	32:44
Gertrude King	I would challenge restaurants. People think, excuse me, because it's Philadelphia, that there's no segregation, but there is. Excuse me, I must get some water. I'm sorry to have to—	33:08
Gertrude King	I guess I really began challenging it in my late teens, I'd say, because I was just so tied up with my music, I had no time for social things like this, political, I guess you would call, things. When I was about 18, I said, "Hey, something's happening out there." Because Mother, of course, sheltered us. My mother and father sheltered us so much, I guess we really didn't realize what segregation was. Didn't even realize we were being segregated against like that. But, okay. But I just loved it. I loved the challenge. I really loved the challenge. Is that all right? Yes, I loved the challenge.	33:25
Paul Ortiz	So it sounds like—	34:11
Gertrude King	Right in the middle of it.	34:12
Paul Ortiz	So it sounds like there was plenty of—	34:13
Gertrude King	Yes.	34:17
Paul Ortiz	—discrimination.	34:17
Gertrude King	Yes, yes, there really was. There really was. Now, I remember when we moved to this particular street in Philadelphia, we were the only Black family on that street, I remember Mother saying when we moved. They were mostly Irish people. And some of them were fairly mean to us. Because I do remember one day, this man somehow closed the car door— I don't know what was happening. I just remember he closed the car door on my brother's finger, and my father went to get a gun or something. But I guess when he came back, the man was gone. I don't know whether that happened on our street, but I think he was one of our neighbors, seemed that way. So it was kind of difficult there at the time. But I guess I didn't really realize. I was pretty young. I guess I was six, maybe five or six. But my father was very protective. Of course, Mother was too.	34:18
Paul Ortiz	Now, Mrs. King, you said that when you decided to move South, your family was a bit fearful.	35:31
Gertrude King	Very fearful. Right. See, they knew that up North, the law was behind us. The law. There was not supposed to be any discrimination, you see. We had the law backing us. But coming South here, the law was not backing us. It was just the opposite. They were not subtle about it. Uh-uh.	35:41
Gertrude King	So I remember when I first moved here, I was just a little nervous about it. But since I moved into the college, it was a college town, and we were really on campus because we used to live in the faculty housing before moving here to this home. And we pretty well stayed within the confines of the university, except when we had to go buy something. But I remember when you would go to buy a hat, they would want you to put something on your head, tissue paper. I remember a friend of mine went to buy a hat, and they wanted her to try it on with tissue paper.	36:07
Gertrude King	So she says, "Why should I try it on with tissue paper? I don't wear tissue paper on my head when I wear my hats." She said, "Well, you might get some grease on it." And she told the woman she didn't have any more grease on her hair than she did. And of course, she had the type of hair where she didn't have to really oil it. She says, "I don't have any more grease on my head than you." So the woman reluctantly let her try it on. So she wouldn't buy it then. But it was really something.	37:02
Gertrude King	And then when I first moved here, you couldn't try on dresses, you see. You couldn't try them on. You would have to take them home. I think you had to take them home to try them on or take a chance on the fitting. I don't remember. But I know I didn't buy any until you were allowed to try them on. Fortunately, I guess when I moved here, it was '54. It was a little bit better than it had been. But from '54 to about— What was it? '68 or '65, it was kind of bad. That's right, because they even had riots. There was a riot here shortly after we moved here. It had to do with civil rights, because they were marching and all of that. So that part was a little scary.	37:32
Gertrude King	Excuse me, if you want more, just go— It's out there. Help yourself, okay? Excuse me.	38:27
Gertrude King	But anyway, let's see if something else— When I first moved here, of course I was excited. Although a little fearful, but excited because my teacher who lived in New York, but of course, she came over to Philadelphia for lessons to teach us, was telling me a friend of hers taught at Florida State University, the White university, okay, at that time. And she says, "I want you to here in the recital." He was a— What was he? I think he was a clarinetist. So I called over there for tickets or something, but they said, "You don't need a ticket, but you need permission to— In order for you to come over here to listen to any of our concerts, our president of the university would have to contact your president of the university, and then he would have to get permission." So I told him, "Forget it."	38:31
Paul Ortiz	The president?	39:35
Gertrude King	Yes. They would have to go through the president of both colleges just for me to go over there to sit and listen to a concert.	39:36
Paul Ortiz	At Florida State.	39:42
Gertrude King	At Florida State University.	39:44
Paul Ortiz	Right across the side of the town.	39:45
Gertrude King	Right. Yes, yes, yes. So I said, "Forget it. Just forget it," and that's what I did. So we pretty much stayed over here and listened to the concerts. Of course, they had lyceum programs where they brought in a lot of different artists to Florida A&M for free. But they were really, really and truly prejudiced.	39:46
Gertrude King	Another interesting thing that happened too. My youngest daughter at the time, I guess she was about five, was having trouble with her feet, so she had to go to an orthopedic surgeon. Well, the surgeon had two entrances. One said, "Colored," and one said, "White." So I remember going there, I said, "Well, I'll go into this Colored place here." So I went in, of course, and they waited all day. You had to wait all day to be waited on, because they were busy with the White people. So he gave me an appointment to come back.	40:15
Gertrude King	The next time I went back, I went in through the regular door, and I sat there just as. And they looked at me so funny. Next thing I knew, my daughter was waited on immediately, because they wanted to get me out of there. And each time after that that I went to Dr. Hutchinson, I remember, to his place, I would go in the front door, no back door with me. And I did that with all of the places. I said, "I'm not going to do that." I just made up my mind I wasn't going to do it. If it said, "Colored," I just wouldn't pay any attention to it.	41:01
Gertrude King	That reminds me of an incident that I had when we were traveling. Well, we would drive through from here, in Tallahassee, to my home in Philadelphia, and then spend a little while there. And from there, we'd drive onto Oklahoma to my husband's home. So I remember on my drive home, I had to go through a place called— Wait a minute, what was it? Was it Macon, Georgia? Macon? No, Perry, Georgia. Perry, Georgia. We were on our way to Macon, Georgia. That's right. But anyway, we had to stop at a little place called Perry, Georgia.	41:42
Gertrude King	Well, something was wrong with the car. So I said, "Well, while we're here," I had the three children, they were small. I said, "I'll just go on and take them to the restroom." Well, one restroom said, "Colored." The other one said, "White." No. One said, "Colored." Other said, "Ladies." So I said, "Well, I'm a lady, so I'll take my kids in here, my two girls here." I heard a banging on the door. Of course the door was locked. Bang, bang, bang. Then I knew what was happening. But anyway, we went on and finished whatever we had to do.	42:24
Gertrude King	When we came out, there was a little boy knocking on the door. He was about 14. He cursed me out, said, "You're supposed to be in that Colored place." So I said, "This said, 'Ladies.'" He said, "But you were supposed to be in there where the niggers are," or something like that. "Go," or something. I didn't want my husband to hear this because our car wasn't working too, so I just more or less calmly spoke to him and told him what I felt. But I kept it down. Wouldn't tell my husband about it. Luckily, it was pretty far from where the car and my husband were because they could have killed my husband and us too, especially in that place.	43:01
Gertrude King	When we got to Macon, this lady told us that someone had been murdered right there in Perry, Georgia the week before. So boy, was I glad that I didn't let him hear that commotion. I did tell Curtis what had happened afterwards.	43:41
Gertrude King	But we've had some awful experiences, really. Well, frightening experiences. I remember once my husband was saying he was on his way to Oklahoma, and he had my son with him. My son was then six or seven. No, maybe five. I guess he was about five, because he was—	44:00
Paul Ortiz	[indistinct 00:44:19].	44:19
Gertrude King	Let's see. All right, wait a minute, five. They were born in '54. Was that '59?	44:20
Paul Ortiz	Yeah.	44:25
Gertrude King	'59, okay. So he was on his way to Oklahoma, and so he stopped for gas. And then they had a little merry-go-round or something. So my son was playing on that. And my husband heard one of the real, I guess, good old boy types. They had the rebel sign on their cars. Said, "That nigger needs to get off of there," or something like that. Anyway.	44:27
Gertrude King	Anyway, my husband gathered the kid and put him in the car. And they followed that car. They followed the car for a good while. And my husband's a little nervous. But they certainly followed that car. But of course, nothing happened. But of course, they have been known to kill people. So we've had some close calls. We had some close calls, yeah.	45:03
Gertrude King	Well, of course, I guess I wouldn't always follow the rules, and that didn't make it any easier. I just refused. Just refused.	45:33
Paul Ortiz	That was a question I was going to ask. I mean, given your distinguished track record in Philadelphia, coming down to Tallahassee in the '50s, you must have had a lot of occasions—	45:40
Gertrude King	Yes.	45:56
Paul Ortiz	—you'd kind of have to maneuver or balance.	45:56
Gertrude King	Right, right. Of course, the only thing I guess that held me down was that the children, I had twins, you see. I was so busy with the twins when I first came, I didn't have time to do very much except take care of them. They were so little. And we didn't know anyone here. Luckily, the person who lived in the apartment above us, we became very good friends and she was like a big sister to me and helped me out with them. And of course, my husband, by working at the university, was able to come home at odd times to help me.	45:57
Gertrude King	But I'm here to tell you, all of my attention when I first moved here was to the twins. All the attention went to those twins. But after they became older, I was able to get out more. And of course, I remember I joined this pinochle club. Mrs. Boardly, the one that you spoke to yesterday, she was one of our original members too. And I remember when I joined, I didn't know anything about playing cards. All I did was play the piano and violin, not cards. So they taught me how to play pinochle. And I guess that club, it's 40 years in September. It will be 40 years old. And we have one, two, three, about four original members. But there are nine of us in all.	46:32
Gertrude King	We used to tell about our different experiences too when we would come to a club meeting. "Well, what happened this week with you?" or something like that. But some of us were more aggressive than others in there. And they had some interesting things to happen.	47:21
Gertrude King	And of course, when I started teaching in the public school system, I guess they had been integrated for two years, because I started in '70. That was really, I had some interesting things going on there too with the kids.	47:38
Gertrude King	There was a little boy who we got angry with this little Black kid, so he said something about, "You Black nigger," or something like that. So I told him, I said, "Now, when you call him that," I said, "I'm also Black," I said, "so you mean me too?" "No, I don't mean you." He said, "No, you're not Black, so you're not a nigger. You're not Black." And the kid he called Black was your color. He was a very light child. But he could see that kid as Black, but he couldn't see me as Black. I'm White to him, as Black as I am. It was really interesting. Really, really funny, I'm telling you. But I didn't have much trouble.	47:58
Gertrude King	Is that the phone? There it is. Okay.	48:40
Gertrude King	Yes. Well, with the pinochle club, in fact, I think I taught most of the people's children who were in the pinochle club, private piano lessons like that. But we used to meet, I think, twice a month. And then as we got older, we changed it to once a month. And of course, we'd meet, play pinochle. And then of course, the person whose home in which we were playing, of course, would have to serve. Served a luncheon or something. And of course, there was a lot of fun.	48:49
Gertrude King	But we would just talk. I guess we'd talk about the different experiences that we would have from time to time. And it was really funny. They would tell some funny tales sometimes. I wish I could remember some of them. If I had a little more time, I probably could remember. But—	49:31
Paul Ortiz	You would talk about issues that members had with racism?	49:52
Gertrude King	Yes. Yes, we would, yes, discuss that, especially while the serving was going on, when it's time to serve. And of course, when we played pinochle, we talked even then, because we weren't really serious pinochle players. Most of us were just— So sometimes we would even stop when we hear somebody's table, you're talking about something, it's like, "Yes," like that. Then we'd say, "We'd better hurry up and finish this game," like that. But it was an outlet, nice social outlet that we had.	49:56
Gertrude King	I didn't bother too much. I know a lot of people belong to sororities and different things like that. I didn't bother too much about anything outside of the music and the pinochle club. That was about it. And of course, church. We would go to church. Belonged to a Presbyterian church. And sometimes I would play for church. I guess I played for church here about three years. So now I sing in the choir. And when they need me, I'll play. And my husband, of course, is the choir director and they call him the Minister of Music, but it's such a small church. But that also gave us a good outlet. And sometimes our church, let's see. We exchanged services with a White church, another Presbyterian church. Their minister and choir would come to us, and then we would go to them. That was very nice. Very, very nice. Yeah.	50:30
Paul Ortiz	Now, Mrs. King, you said that at the pinochle club meetings, when you just get together, and some people would be more outspoken than others.	51:50
Gertrude King	Yeah. Yes. Well, I don't know. I think everyone— Well, yes, see, I talk more than anybody else. And there was another lady who was very, very talkative. But when we would stop, then somebody else would come in. But of course, maybe a couple of us talked a little more than others. But they would mention maybe some things about their children.	51:58
Gertrude King	I remember, in fact, about my daughter when— Well, I guess about a year after integration of the schools, she decided she wanted to go to this, well, predominantly White school, and there were only very, very few Blacks. Maybe she'd have one in her section or something like that, one other. So I said, "Are you sure you want to go?" She said, "Yes." So we went to court. Several of us went to court to get into these schools. So we did. She attended this school.	52:28
Gertrude King	I remember when she first started going there, at lunchtime, she'd have a table, a long table all to herself. And then some kids would throw potatoes at her. I didn't know this until she graduated because I would've been up there, I'm here to tell you. They threw potatoes at her. They were very mean to her, called her all sorts of things. That was, I guess, the first year.	53:09
Gertrude King	The second year, evidently, they became accustomed to Black people, because they did vote for her for cheerleader. She became a cheerleader. I guess she was cheerleader for a couple of years. And she also was in the band.	53:35
Gertrude King	Now, the band was pretty fair because I remember when my son graduated, he was the bandsman of the year, and they didn't usually just give a Black person bandsman of the year. But he did play beautiful french horn. So they were pretty fair to him in that respect. But there was always a lot of controversy going on at the school, seemingly.	53:55
Paul Ortiz	Now, did the other parents who were involved in that integration case, did you know them beforehand or—?	54:23
Gertrude King	Yes. Yes, we knew each other. Let's see. There were only one, two, three, four, five. I guess about five in this particular case. But of course, there were other cases too. But there were only about five. But—	54:32
Paul Ortiz	Were they from the church or where—?	54:50
Gertrude King	No, just from the community. They weren't particularly close friends. Although, my daughter became very close friends with the girl who was always in her room, was in her class. In fact, they're very, very tight buddies till this day. And another— Let's see. The other one, one other one was a fairly close friend. So we won the case, all of us won. I think there were three different schools they dispersed them to. But we did win the case.	54:53
Paul Ortiz	Now, when you and your family first moved down here, how were you received by the college community around?	55:34
Gertrude King	Fine. Fine. Usually Black people will welcome Black people, and they were, at that time, all Black, if I'm not mistaken. Yeah, I'm sure. They were all Black. So they really received us very well. Yes. It was really great. And see, it was the first time I had ever been in this type of setting, college setting.	55:49
Gertrude King	Now, of course, I did miss not being able to hear the Philadelphia Orchestra every Saturday. I missed that. Every Saturday night, I was there to hear Eugene Ormandy and the Philadelphia Orchestra. Just about every Saturday. It was expensive, but by attending this Settlement Music School, I was given a ticket just about every Saturday. It was through some special funding called the Guggenheim—	56:13
Paul Ortiz	Foundation.	56:46
Gertrude King	—Scholarship Fund. Foundation, that's right. Guggenheim. So we were always issued tickets, and I loved that, I'm telling you. So I missed that here.	56:49
Paul Ortiz	What was the entertainment like around here, like, say, social events? Would you go to movies?	57:00
Gertrude King	Dances. Yes, movies. Movies. I'm glad you mentioned movies. Let's see, I think we must have had— I know we had a Black movie house somewhere. Yes, across town. Can't remember the name of it.	57:07
Paul Ortiz	A woman by the name of Mrs. Yellowhair?	57:22
Gertrude King	Mrs. who?	57:22
Paul Ortiz	Yellowhair. Mrs. Boardly mentioned a person went by the name of Yellowhair and she had a Black-only theater.	57:27
Gertrude King	Her name is Yellowhair? Yellow? I don't remember her. See, Barbara Boardly would probably remember, she would know these people. See, she was born here. And when I came, of course, I probably didn't meet them. It doesn't ring a bell. But I remember if we wanted to see the latest movies, we'd have to go over to Quincy and sit upstairs.	57:38
Paul Ortiz	How about were there theaters in Tallahassee?	58:06
Gertrude King	Yes. Yes, I'm sure there were. Yes. Because there was the Florida Theater and another one. But I don't think we were allowed to go there. But Quincy would accept us, but we sat upstairs.	58:10
Gertrude King	And it was so funny, I remember Monticello. Do you know where Monticello is? That's about 19 miles from here.	58:28
Paul Ortiz	Yeah, I've seen. Just—	58:37
Gertrude King	Is it north? I don't know which direction. Let's see. It's like you're going to Jacksonville. But anyway, Monticello, I didn't ever go over there, but I was thinking about a couple years ago, my husband sang at the Monticello Opera House, it was called. He sang with a group, but he was the only Black with the group or something. So consequently, I was the only Black in the audience.	58:39
Gertrude King	But before it began, someone who had— See, they had restored this place. And the man was saying, said, "Now, up here," said, "the slaves used to sit up here and listen to the different operas," or whatever they had presented. So I thought that was really interesting. And that night, of course, I made sure I sat down on the main floor. And they couldn't miss me because I was the only Black in the audience. And of course, my husband was the only Black on the stage. But I said, "This is really interesting. Years and years ago, he could not even have performed there, and I could not have sat where I was sitting." I found that extremely interesting. And I was treated with much respect. Yeah.	59:09
Gertrude King	They seemed delighted to have me. But see, Monticello's still prejudiced. But of course, you can go wherever you want. Of course, Tallahassee is too, but not quite as much. But it's been an interesting experience, and I'm really very glad that I did come down here to live. I've learned quite a bit.	1:00:09
Gertrude King	Because my very first experience with the South, but it was back in 1948, and I belonged to a piano ensemble called the Philadelphia Piano Ensemble. They were all Black and really came out of a sorority group called the AKAs, and they asked me to join, even though I wasn't AKA. But anyway, we had an engagement in Birmingham, Alabama. That was my very, very first experience with the Deep South, and I fell in love with it. It was beautiful. Of course, they wined and dined us.	1:00:36
Gertrude King	Well, of course, this is all Black now, because it was a sorority, the AKA sorority who had us to come down to perform at the Civic Center there. And of course, at that time, it was segregated. So the White people had to sit upstairs because the Black people were giving it. It was predominantly Black. It was all Black, in fact. I mean, I don't know whether you're familiar with Alabama. Are you from Birmingham?	1:01:22
Paul Ortiz	We were there for three weeks now.	1:01:56
Gertrude King	You were? Did you—	1:01:57
Paul Ortiz	But we didn't go to the Civic Center.	1:01:59
Gertrude King	Well, that's right, it was Convention Hall then. They had since built the Civic Center. But I was surprised and thrilled to learn that there were so many Black-owned businesses in Birmingham, Alabama at that time, because they took us to a candy factory that was owned by a Black woman and her family. And there were some other businesses they took us to. But I particularly remember the candy, I guess because I love candy. But it was the most interesting thing. I said, "Goodness, Black people down here own things." And of course, there are more Black-owned businesses in the South than anywhere.	1:02:01
Gertrude King	And for one thing, in order to get a job, for Blacks to get a job, Black people had better owned something, you see. And I think the Black people in the South are better educated than in the North, because in the North, Black people didn't have too much trouble getting jobs without a college education. But here, you had to have a college education or you scrubbed floors, you see. And consequently, the parents, they encouraged their students to go ahead and finish your education. This is a great thing, you see.	1:02:47
Gertrude King	And I do believe if my children had lived up north, the three of them would not have become college graduates, I don't think. But it's being in this atmosphere. All their friends went to college, so they just had to go to college, you see. Even though my son didn't want to go to college, he wanted to go on with his career. But I said, "No, you must go to college." So I'm happy about moving down here for one reason, one particular reason, at least my children were educated, you see.	1:03:33
Gertrude King	One of my daughters works in the governor's office. She's a staff assistant, I think. Administrative assistant or something like that. And my other daughter is— Well, she has her MBA. She worked in business up there in Connecticut for maybe about 14 years. And about five years ago, she decided to become a physical therapist, so now she's a physical therapist. She has her degree in physical therapy. She went to University of Connecticut for that. So I'm really proud of all three of my children. Yeah.	1:04:11
Paul Ortiz	Now speaking of your children, Mrs. King, you said that when you were a young girl, your mother, or your parents, I guess, kind of shielded you from segregation.	1:04:53
Gertrude King	Yes.	1:05:08
Paul Ortiz	Or at least not really talking about it much.	1:05:09
Gertrude King	Right.	1:05:11
Paul Ortiz	Now, what about yourself in Tallahassee—	1:05:12
Gertrude King	With my children?	1:05:17
Paul Ortiz	— with your children? Did you?	1:05:17
Gertrude King	Yes, I told them. I made it very, very clear, especially to my son. Very, very clear. Places he would definitely not think about going. And get in kind of early. But especially boys had problems here. Seemingly, girls and the Black women, for some reason, could get away with doing many more things than the Black man when it came to pushing yourself into these different places, you see. For some reason, the Black woman has— Well, they don't bother the Black woman too much. But the Black man can get killed just like that.	1:05:21
Paul Ortiz	Where would've been the places that you advised your son not to go to?	1:06:10
Gertrude King	Well, first of all, I would tell him that he should just stay around in the neighborhood, in other words.	1:06:19
Paul Ortiz	Around Florida A&M?	1:06:29
Gertrude King	Florida A&M, right. Florida A&M. And occasionally, I'd let them go to the mall or places like that. But I'd tell them, make sure they kept their hands off of everything because they would be accused of stealing, you see. And I would tell them also, "Don't—" I didn't say don't associate with White people, but don't get too close, especially to the girls. See, because that was taboo like that. And the girls seemed to like him very much in school. So I told him just forget that, because it wasn't safe, even though it was integration. But still, you had to be very careful. Yes. And if he went to the movies, told him to come straight back home. Just come straight home. Don't loiter. Because for the least little things, these cops would pick you up.	1:06:30
Paul Ortiz	What were the police like here in the '50s?	1:07:30
Gertrude King	They were abusive, from what I understand. They were abusive. That's why I told them to avoid the police. Even though it was integration, so many of them didn't want integration. They didn't want integration. So they would try to find everything in the world against you, especially if you were a Black male, you see. So you had to really be careful. I told him make sure he didn't speed and— Excuse me once more. I'm sorry. I love to talk, as you can see. I don't want to get wound up more.	1:07:34
Paul Ortiz	Mrs. King, have you already been registered to vote in Philadelphia?	1:08:16
Gertrude King	Yes. Yes.	1:08:17
Paul Ortiz	Did you begin to vote immediately in Tallahassee?	1:08:27
Gertrude King	Yes, I didn't have any problems with the voting. I don't remember having any problems with that.	1:08:30
Paul Ortiz	And when the bus boycotts started here, did you have experiences around that?	1:08:43
Gertrude King	Well, I know my husband would drive the kids. They had to go to town like that. Of course, we never did use the bus anyway. But we would pick up as many people as we could to take them to town. Yeah. That helped quite a bit around here. Quite a bit.	1:08:57
Paul Ortiz	So did other people in this area also act as drivers?	1:09:25
Gertrude King	Yes. Yes. See, by living in the college community, most of the teachers and the people who worked at the university, they would help whoever needed. Yeah.	1:09:29
Paul Ortiz	That must have been an exciting time.	1:09:46
Gertrude King	Yes, yes. Yes, indeed. Of course, I was a little worried about my kids, because I didn't want them to really get into anything. Let's see, that was '65. Was it '64?	1:09:48
Paul Ortiz	'64?	1:10:03
Gertrude King	Yeah. Wait a minute. It wasn't—	1:10:05
Paul Ortiz	'57.	1:10:07
Gertrude King	'57. Okay, '57. Well, see, '57, they were just little babies, you see. Actually, when they really started going places, everything was much more calm. So we were lucky there. Excuse me. Sorry.	1:10:07
Paul Ortiz	Mrs. King, if you're writing your autobiography, you had to kind of sum up your life and try to think about some of the things that have inspired you or kind of helped you transcend barriers that you faced, what would've been some of those inspiring things or moments or beliefs?	1:10:33
Gertrude King	Well, let's see. In other words, you want to know what really sort of kept me going at this type of thing?	1:11:09
Paul Ortiz	Yeah.	1:11:13
Gertrude King	I don't know, except for the fact that I guess maybe in a way, I was a rebellious type of person, you see. And when I saw things that I didn't think was exactly right, then I would try to do something about it, you see. And my daughter is the same way. Well, I just believe in people being treated properly, correctly.	1:11:16
Gertrude King	I know with my daughter, of course, she was, by being in business, working in the business world. She had people working under her. But when her bosses, I mean, Black or White, it didn't matter with her. But if her bosses, if she could see that they were really mistreating the people who worked under her, she would go to bat for them, and they would say, "Well, Carla, we don't know if you're for the company or for us." She feels this way about if they promised her people, they would maybe give a raise, something like that, and if they didn't carry through, she would really go to bat for them. But they felt that she should just go along with them, but she has never been that type of person. Of course, I'm the same way.	1:11:47
Gertrude King	And she was really the champion for right, I guess. And when she left that particular place where she was working, I think even though there was always some controversy, she was always in some kind of controversy, they offered her more money to stay. They really appreciated her, I think. They offered her more money to stay, but she told them she was going back to school and was going to become a physical therapist. And that's what she's done. But she is a champion for right.	1:12:44
Gertrude King	You have to treat people the way you would want to be treated no matter what their color, no matter what their color. But I guess I felt that I was being treated like a second, well, maybe not, well, second class citizen. And I was just not going to be treated that way. At least I wasn't going to shut my mouth up about it. And I think, of course, if you want things to change, you just have to work toward it. You just can't just sit down and say to someone, "So-and-so is just not treating us right." Go out there and do something about it. Tell that person. Tell that person. Tell that person. Let's see. I can't think of anything else. Yeah.	1:13:20

Item Info

Title:

Gertrude King interview recording, 1994 July 28

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https://idn.duke.edu/ark:/87924/r4fj2nn93

Date:

July 28, 1994

Creator:

King, Gertrude

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Ortiz, Paul

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Name: Gertrude King; Date of birth: 1923-04-02; Place of birth: Philadelphia, PA; Occupation(s): educator; Residence: Tallahassee, FL
Informant ID: 393; Interviewed by: Paul Ortiz.

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RL00170-CS-1537
9e08ac8b-4571-4930-b93e-cec0e8dd3703
behindtheveil
ad9e1d88-1bd4-4c3a-984f-637f6c76b436
ark:/87924/r4fj2nn93
ad9e1d88-1bd4-4c3a-984f-637f6c76b436

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Behind the Veil

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Behind the Veil: Documenting African American Life in the Jim Crow South interviews, photographs, and project records, circa 1864-2011, bulk 1990-2004

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Educator

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The David M. Rubenstein Rare Book and Manuscript Library acquired the Records of the Behind the Veil Oral History Project from the Duke University Center for Documentary Studies in 1997, 1998, 2000, and 2002.

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Gertrude King interview recording, 1994 July 28

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1. Gertrude King administrative file, 1994

John Hope Franklin Research Center

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