Emma Bell (primary interviewee) and Rhem Bell interview recording, 1993 July 29

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	[RT Bell] Rhem Tull Bell is the name,	0:01
	the initial RT.	0:04
	(indistinct)	0:06
	413 Palm Street,	0:08
	New Bern, North Carolina.	0:12
	It's 182-?	0:17
	It's 285 zip code, number 28560.	0:19
	[Chris Stewart] Could you just state your name ma'am,	0:25
	so I can get them all?	0:26
	[Emma Bell] Yes, my name is Emma.	0:27
	Emma B. Bell.	0:28
-	Okay.	0:32
	I'd like to start, would you like me to direct	0:34
	and if you have something to add	0:36
	or did you want me to ask?	0:38
	I can ask both of you questions at the same time?	0:40
-	That's fine.	0:43
-	Okay.	0:43
	I'd like to start then by asking you what I asked you before	0:44
	and it wasn't on tape is if you have always lived here	0:47
	in James City?	0:52
-	No, our home's up there in Cove City.	0:54
	After I was born there.	0:57
	We moved here in 1941.	0:59
-	What kind of work did your family do in Cove City?	1:03
-	Farm.	1:05
-	Did your parents own their farm?	1:07
-	No, sharecropping.	1:10
-	They were sharecropping.	1:12
	Was there anybody around there who were renting?	1:13
-	That's the same thing, I call it sharecropping.	1:16
	Renting, sharecropping, same thing.	1:20
-	Who did your parents work for up there?	1:28
-	Well, Rigs and Alpoc.	1:30
-	Rigs and?	1:35
-	Alpocs.	1:36
-	What kind of crops did your family?	1:40
-	Corn and beans.	1:43
-	Is there any cotton?	1:46
-	No, the cotton had went out.	1:48
	Cotton had gone, wasn't nothing like today.	1:51
	A few hogs and a chicken.	1:54
-	What about you ma'am,	1:57
	have you always lived here in James City?	1:58
-	Yes, I was born in James City.	2:00
-	You were?	2:01
-	I'm from a family of six children	2:02
	and my daddy was a saw mill worker.	2:05
-	What was the name of the saw mill	2:11
	that your father worked for?	2:13
-	Rover and Hamill company.	2:14
-	I'm sorry?	2:15
-	Rover.	2:16
-	Roller.	2:17
	Rover and Hamill company.	2:18
-	Right, I've heard of this.	2:19
-	My mother was a housewife.	2:21
-	What part of James City did you live in.	2:23
-	Right here, just a few steps from here.	2:25
	Not this spot, but the riverfront,	2:28
	I lived on the riverfront.	2:30
-	You did?	2:31
-	I was reared there.	2:32
-	Place called Graysville.	2:33
-	Yeah, Graysville.	2:34
	That part of James City was called Graysville.	2:35
-	Did James City have,	2:38
	I mean, was that the name of the neighborhood?	2:39
-	Yes, yes, yes.	2:42
-	What were some of the other names?	2:44
-	Brownsville,	2:46
	Meadowville. Meadowville?	2:54
-	Yeah.	2:56
-	Meadowville.	2:57
-	Meadow?	3:00
-	Yeah, meadows.	3:01
	Meadowsville.	3:02
	Then of course you know James City that was further up	3:08
	this way but over here we had Graysville, Brownsville	3:11
	and Meadowsville.	3:15
-	Were these neighborhoods that were part of James City	3:17
	or were they components of James City?	3:22
-	What they done, these was James City peoples.	3:23
	Soon you cross the bridge you either come out old bridge	3:28
	or big bridge.	3:31
-	Big bridge.	3:33
-	So you cross the big bridge,	3:34
	that James City right in there.	3:36
	That'd be James City.	3:38
-	Where's the old bridge?	3:39
-	It's over here.	3:41
-	Over here, see?	3:42
	Going back.	3:44
-	Here.	3:46
	Going back to your right.	3:48
-	Okay, that's on 10?	3:50
-	Hm-mmm.	3:51
	It's sitting near eight.	3:51
-	Yeah?	3:54
-	Yeah.	3:55
	That's the bypass the way you came in on.	3:56
-	What do each of you remember about the house	4:00
	that you grew up in?	4:02
-	Oh yes, we owned our house.	4:03
	It was a plain house.	4:05
	We always owned our house.	4:07
	My daddy worked at the lumber company so we always kept	4:09
	our house in perfect shape.	4:11
	They're surrounded with relatives, mostly.	4:14
-	Really?	4:16
-	Yes.	4:17
	There was quite a few people	4:19
	living in the area of James City.	4:21
	There was one church right there, but in our little sections	4:25
	we had a church and we still have churches in all sections.	4:30
	We attended school right here, we had our school,	4:37
	James City Elementary School	4:39
	from grades one through seven.	4:42
	This is where I attended elementary school	4:48
	and then I went to New Bern High School.	4:50
-	Barber?	4:53
-	No, no, no, this was-	4:54
-	West Street.	4:55
-	Wesley Street High School.	4:56
	From there I went to college, Winston-Salem State.	5:00
-	Oh, you did?	5:05
-	I became a teacher.	5:07
-	Oh wow.	5:08
-	So I taught in Craven County for about 34 years.	5:09
-	Wow.	5:13
-	And I retired.	5:14
-	Did you teach in this area or did you teach in the county?	5:14
-	In county, county as a whole.	5:19
	Cove City area, Havelock, and James City, high north hollow,	5:23
-	Dover.	5:29
-	All around, Dover.	5:30
-	When did you retire, ma'am?	5:31
-	'89.	5:33
-	What do you recall about your house growing up?	5:37
-	Well, it was, see we didn't own no house.	5:40
-	Right.	5:44
-	We had a house that went with the farm we used.	5:45
	You tend the land, you got the house to live in, you see?	5:50
	We stayed there probably five or six years, maybe 10.	5:54
	But maybe later you think you do better with other men,	6:01
	so then we moved.	6:04
-	Did your house have electricity?	6:09
-	No, no, no.	6:11
	Only later years we did, but early years we did not.	6:12
-	We did not either.	6:17
	Not until later years.	6:18
-	Do you remember getting electricity?	6:19
-	Oh yes, I do.	6:21
-	What do you remember?	6:22
-	Oh, I was very excited then.	6:24
	(Stewart laughs)	6:26
	I was about high school when we got, really remember	6:27
	we got the bathroom and all of that.	6:30
	The kitchen and all set up.	6:34
	It was really exciting lighting things up.	6:37
-	How did your lives change when there was electricity	6:40
	in your house?	6:43
-	Well, I tell you with me it wasn't all that much	6:44
	because we had a thing out there we come done pretty good,	6:49
	we called a combine light.	6:54
-	I've heard of this.	6:57
-	We used that in place of lights.	6:58
	Have to use a lamp, see.	7:03
	Before that we had one of these called a mallon lamp.	7:06
	It had a mal in it and you strapped it.	7:09
-	Had a mallet?	7:12
-	A mallon lamp with a mal in it the lamp point.	7:12
	All of this, I don't know what up that way	7:16
	but it had a mallon on it you could put in	7:19
	and it gave a really white light.	7:21
	That was before the combine but the combine light,	7:27
	it was put up high, something like electric light.	7:30
-	Where was the combine part of it?	7:35
-	It was some (indistinct) of butane gas really what it was.	7:38
	Some little owl like this	7:42
	and you pull the thing to light it.	7:45
-	I've heard people talk about, people in another area	7:48
	were talking about this big thing that they had in the	7:51
	backyard that they had to crank to get light.	7:54
	You heard of, I'm not sure what it was called.	7:58
-	I haven't seen anything about crank down here	8:02
	but windmills, be windmills, they'll give a generator	8:05
	to make electric light.	8:10
-	We had an ice box (laughs).	8:15
	Ice boxes they had then also.	8:20
	The tubs for washing, the wash bowl and all of that.	8:22
	They had all of that before we got electricity.	8:26
	Of course a lot of people had fireplaces	8:31
	where we had a wood stove.	8:33
	(telephone rings)	8:35
	Excuse me.	8:36
-	Did electricity make your life better, do you think?	8:37
-	Oh yeah, oh yeah.	8:40
-	How?	8:42
-	Well, you figure it was in some way more convenient,	8:43
	easy done.	8:46
	Electric, making (indistinct) a string that you held	8:48
	trying to keep together.	8:53
	The (indistinct) put you on a string	8:57
	trying to keep it paid now.	9:00
-	What was your parents' relationship to the landowners?	9:04
-	No nothing, they were White.	9:08
-	No, how did they get along with the landowners?	9:10
-	Real good, real good.	9:13
-	Yeah?	9:14
	Were the landowners fair?	9:15
-	Yeah, yeah.	9:17
-	When it came settling up time in the beginning of the year	9:21
	did your parents ever owe them money?	9:26
-	We always came out boost,	9:30
	sometimes we'd have a bare little left.	9:33
	But we always would be well enough to pay out.	9:36
	Always pay out because you can't double back.	9:42
-	Did your father keep his own books?	9:46
-	Well, he kept a little book behind,	9:48
	he had a book of people.	9:50
	Anytime he got some he would put it in both books.	9:53
-	Were there people who didn't keep their own books?	10:01
-	Well a lot of them complaining about what happened.	10:03
	You're a kid out place and step back.	10:08
	People way down, we didn't keep no books.	10:13
	Landlord didn't want them to keep nothing	10:15
	because he knew what he was planning to do to them.	10:17
	Some landlord, bound any time you need to come up by end	10:23
	it would end up (indistinct) would be getting a new tenant	10:27
	and you had to run off	10:31
	and leave, that kind of thing.	10:33
	I know two of those cases that happened.	10:36
-	Did you have family who lived around you as well?	10:40
	Aunts and uncles or grandparents?	10:43
-	My grandparents, they owned their own land.	10:46
	He was- a building right by a shed.	10:50
-	Where'd they own their land?	10:55
-	Well, we were only living about four, five miles from	10:57
	where they were.	11:00
	Over on Dover Road we call it.	11:03
-	On what road?	11:05
-	Dover Road.	11:06
-	Were these your mother's parents or your father's parents?	11:07
-	My mother's parents.	11:10
-	Did you ever go visit them?	11:12
-	Yes, sometimes.	11:13
-	What'd you do when you went and visited them?	11:16
-	We always had a whole lot to eat.	11:18
	(interviewer laughs)	11:21
	I was a kid, you know?	11:22
	We had some sort of, because he wasn't in good shape.	11:23
	He got, he had three sons get killed in WWI	11:27
-	Oh.	11:31
-	And so she was	11:32
	drawing right good check, she was right good finance shape.	11:33
-	Was your grandfather alive	11:40
	or was it just your grandmother?	11:41
-	My grandmother, my grandfather passed.	11:43
-	But your grandmother still had land?	11:46
-	Yeah.	11:48
-	Who worked the land for her?	11:49
-	Well, she had sons.	11:51
	She had some more sons.	11:53
-	Oh, she did.	11:54
	Wow.	11:55
	What about you ma'am, you mentioned that your family	11:57
	all lived around you.	11:59
	Did your grandparents live close by as well?	12:01
-	No, I didn't know anything about them.	12:04
	They was way before my time.	12:07
	They owned their home, a big house because it was	12:10
	lots of children in their family.	12:13
	Some of them, the grandchildren, some grandchildren,	12:16
	none of the children are living, but the grandchildren are	12:21
	but I've seen a picture of their homestead,	12:24
	great big house.	12:28
	There's another house on this land now,	12:31
	it's not the original house.	12:35
	By one of the great grandchildren.	12:38
-	Do you remember family celebrations or get togethers?	12:42
	You said that you had family living all around you,	12:45
	did you have get togethers occasionally?	12:48
-	Not really.	12:54
	No more than church activities and like that.	12:55
	We didn't have too much fun on, I can't remember.	13:02
-	What about birthdays or holidays?	13:04
-	Not so much about birthdays or holidays,	13:09
	not that I can recall.	13:12
-	Did each of you belong to a church?	13:16
-	Oh yes, we're baptists.	13:18
	My church right over here, the Palm Chapel.	13:20
	He belonged to this church here, Pilgrim Chapel.	13:24
-	Pilgrim Chapel.	13:27
-	Yes.	13:28
-	Do you remember your baptism?	13:29
-	Oh yes.	13:31
-	Oh yeah.	13:32
-	We baptized in the river, East River	13:33
-	I was baptized up there on Cove City section	13:35
	from a church called Mount Moriah.	13:38
-	Mount Moriah.	13:41
	Were you baptized in a river as well?	13:42
-	Yes I was.	13:44
-	Can you talk?	13:45
-	In a creek.	13:46
-	Okay, can you talk to me a little bit about	13:47
	what that was like and what you remember of it?	13:48
-	Well, now, it was Cold Creek and they carry you down	13:51
	into the water and you get down there	13:56
	and they lay you down and they sing and have prayer.	14:02
	Sing and carry you underwater.	14:05
-	Were you scared?	14:14
-	Nah.	14:15
	That water we go down in, you won't go anywhere.	14:17
	(interviewer laughs)	14:21
	Did you feel changed after your baptism?	14:24
-	Yes.	14:29
	Well, I was born on the waterfront,	14:29
	that's where we had our baptism.	14:31
	What we would do, we would come to the church	14:33
	and dress in the gowns and a towel on our head	14:35
	and everything and we would march from the church	14:39
	back to the baptismal ground and then we would sing	14:41
	and have prayer and all.	14:45
	Then the minister would go out in the water	14:46
	and we'd go out in the water with them	14:49
	and then they'd baptize and then we'd come back	14:51
	in our dressing robe.	14:53
	Oh yeah, we had a revival.	14:56
	Had a big revival and I remember that it was quite a feeling	14:58
	and it was just a long line and it was beautiful	15:04
	the way that we looked and marching down to the waterfront.	15:08
	Then we just went our separate ways to dress	15:13
	until we come back to church service.	15:16
	Excuse me.	15:19
	(telephone rings)	15:21
-	Now we had our family down on my father's birthday,	15:23
	I guess that been about 70 years ago,	15:31
	at least that many years ago.	15:37
	We started on our, had a breaking ground, break ground,	15:39
	and now we still have the family unit behind it.	15:45
-	On his birthday?	15:50
-	Yeah.	15:50
-	They were 12 but most time it don't be like that.	15:55
	They kept the family unit in pretty good shape.	15:58
-	So you remember the celebrations that you had for your	16:05
	father's birthday.	16:08
	Would people come from a ways away	16:10
	to celebrate your father's birthday?	16:12
-	Oh yeah.	16:14
	New York, Richmond, all of 'em.	16:15
	We don't have a whole lot of people in the South.	16:18
-	Oh yeah?	16:21
-	Most of our people in the North.	16:22
-	When did most of them leave?	16:23
-	As soon as they can get some schooling	16:26
	and get out of here.	16:27
-	They went where did you say?	16:32
-	Most went north like New York, Baltimore,	16:34
	D.C. and Atlanta.	16:39
-	How come you didn't go?	16:41
-	Well, because I had done pretty fair	16:43
	right here where I was,	16:45
	so I just stayed right around.	16:46
	I never had that idea because I seen so many	16:51
	who did go, come back here.	16:54
	They ain't really done have a decent place to live	16:58
	so come back and rent.	17:00
	I never liked renting, that's one thing.	17:05
	I'd rather not, even back then.	17:08
-	Why do you think that's the case?	17:12
-	Because it's like giving away money, to me, always.	17:14
-	Huh?	17:17
-	It always look like giving away money, to me.	17:18
-	Did your mothers have a garden?	17:25
-	Oh yes.	17:27
-	Vegetable garden?	17:28
-	Oh yes, yes.	17:29
	My daddy raised hogs.	17:30
-	Oh, he did?	17:33
-	Yes, we never had to buy the meat.	17:34
-	Do you remember hog killing time?	17:36
-	Oh yes.	17:37
-	Me, yes.	17:38
-	What was that like?	17:39
-	It was a lot of fun.	17:40
-	Was it? -Yes, it was. -How come?	17:41
-	Because of the good eats.	17:43
-	Eating that good, fresh food.	17:45
-	The goodies they're cooking (laughs).	17:46
	Yeah, we had a lot of fun with that.	17:48
-	Would there be people coming to help?	17:51
-	Yeah.	17:53
-	Oh yes, yes.	17:54
	Oh yes.	17:55
-	How long would it take?	17:56
-	A day, all day.	17:58
-	It was about a day.	17:59
-	About two days.	18:00
-	How come you used two days?	18:02
-	Because we had so many hogs,	18:03
	we had about 18 hogs we had to kill.	18:05
	It was about 18.	18:08
-	Portion out the meat and take our time.	18:10
-	Take about two days to do that.	18:13
-	What kind of work did, well, what were-	18:18
	How did people-	18:22
	What kind of work does it require to kill a hog?	18:23
	That's the question and what exactly do you have to do?	18:26
-	We had a vat made about half as big as that roof	18:30
	right down there and we put that over the farm	18:36
	about half full of water.	18:42
	Dig a trench in the ground and then shoot the water in there	18:45
	and help it get hot and then we would roll the hogs	18:49
	in that one.	18:52
	Scald him to pick the hair off of him.	18:55
	And bring him around the other side	18:59
	and (indistinct) snag the hair off the back	19:01
	and somebody would come in on the other side	19:04
	with another one.	19:07
	So would watch him go hang him up in the galley	19:08
	so we could gut him.	19:10
	Not much work to tell you.	19:15
-	Who would be doing this work?	19:18
-	Different one of us.	19:21
	Different one, men be doing that.	19:22
	Men be doing that.	19:24
	When we gut out, we gutting them we take the intestines out	19:27
	then the women would take the intestines and cleans them.	19:34
-	Chitlins.	19:38
-	Chitlins.	19:39
	What other kind of work would the women do, ma'am?	19:41
-	Well most of them, a lot of people do farm work.	19:44
-	Cut the lard up and make the sauces.	19:48
-	From the pig, from the hog?	19:53
-	Hm-mmm.	19:54
-	Cut the lard up, you know, the fat.	19:56
	When we go to cut the hog up, put the packings down	19:58
	and take all that real fat out.	20:02
	You use that to make lard out of.	20:05
	Take the knee and make sauces out of it.	20:08
	That was women's job, cut up the knees so you can run it	20:11
	through the mill, the sauce, cut the fat	20:14
	so they can put it in the pot and cook it all out.	20:16
-	Did everybody have smokehouses to smoke the meat?	20:19
-	Not everybody did.	20:22
-	Some people did.	20:24
-	Would other people bring their meat	20:26
	to other people's smokehouses?	20:28
-	Very little of that, very little of that.	20:30
-	But people would help each other out killing the hogs?	20:34
-	Oh yes.	20:36
	Because other jobs were concerned,	20:39
	people did a lot of domestic, very seasonal work.	20:41
	It was time for tobacco, harvest tobacco, cotton,	20:47
	but my mother was a housewife.	20:52
	She picked some cotton and she would do some things,	20:56
	mostly she was with us.	21:00
-	Did you know women around you who did domestic work,	21:02
	who might have lived around you who did domestic work?	21:05
	Or did you know of people?	21:13
-	Yeah, I knew of people, yeah, I knew of people.	21:14
	A lot of people, young people went up north	21:22
	to seek better jobs because there was nothing here	21:23
	for them to do.	21:26
	We had a canning factory in the area, I remember that.	21:28
	I worked at that, they canned tomatoes and peaches.	21:31
	That was right in the area, walking distance.	21:36
	We did have that.	21:38
	Matt Lupton's Canning company.	21:39
-	What was the name?	21:43
-	Matt Lupton's.	21:43
	Matt Lupton's canning company.	21:46
	It was right here near the bridge.	21:49
-	Okay.	21:52
	Did your family ever talk to you about the big fire?	21:56
-	Yes.	22:00
	Yeah, yeah, my mother did.	22:01
	She told me about the day she was washing clothes,	22:04
	made a fire under the pot, the wash pot.	22:09
	They boiled the clothes, they put them in a big black pot,	22:11
	they boiled the clothes then years back.	22:13
	I think it started from there.	22:17
	The wind breezed up and it went from house to house.	22:20
	I think she had one child, my remember she had two,	22:23
	my brother I think was born that same year.	22:28
	I think it was in 1921, I believe.	22:31
	He was a baby and several people got burned,	22:36
	several people got burned out but it was on that side.	22:39
	It was in New Bern, not on this side.	22:42
	So the bridge divided us, the river and whatnot.	22:45
-	It was on the other side of the Trent River here?	22:49
-	It was in New Bern, yes.	22:51
	Right in New Bern.	22:52
-	Wow.	22:54
	Somebody told me that the fire really swept through	22:55
	the Black sections.	22:59
-	It did.	23:00
	Yes, it did.	23:01
	It really did, yes.	23:02
	I seen several pictures of it.	23:04
	I know where the section is now.	23:06
	But they rebuilt it.	23:08
-	Sure, did the people in James City help?	23:11
	Were there efforts in James City to try	23:19
	and help the people in New Bern, do you know?	23:20
-	Well, I can imagine because we all had relatives.	23:22
	Some people probably had relatives.	23:25
	I don't remember, but I'm sure that they gave them	23:29
	a helping hand.	23:32
	Some people could take some family and whatnot.	23:34
	Because people years ago were together more so than not,	23:36
	they cared for each other.	23:41
	Something happen in your family, just like something happen	23:45
	in our family, you know, the same thing.	23:48
	People just cooperate and help each other.	23:52
-	We've heard a lot about the fire,	23:58
	a lot of people have vivid memories of it.	23:59
-	It was a bad thing.	24:01
-	Sounds really horrible.	24:03
	What about school?	24:06
	What school did you, you attended James City,	24:07
	what about you, sir?	24:12
-	We had a little country school out there	24:14
	called Dover Rose school.	24:16
-	Dover?	24:20
-	Dover Rose School.	24:21
	Ain't go no higher than 7th grade.	24:24
-	How big was it?	24:28
-	Two rooms.	24:29
-	How many teachers?	24:32
-	Two.	24:33
-	How long was the school year?	24:36
-	I think it was six months.	24:39
-	Did you go the whole six months?	24:41
-	Could if I could get out of work.	24:44
-	Did you?	24:47
-	No.	24:47
-	How come?	24:49
-	I had to walk and didn't have no shoes.	24:50
-	How far away was the school from where you lived?	24:52
-	About two miles.	24:55
	Walk all the way.	24:58
-	Right, right.	25:01
	What were the times of year that you had to stay home?	25:03
-	When was the time?	25:07
-	When, what times?	25:08
-	Only time was the year about spring or about that.	25:10
	Yeah, I was working in the field getting ready for the crop.	25:14
-	Right.	25:18
	Were there lots of students who were doing that?	25:20
-	Yes, yes.	25:23
-	How did teachers help the students who had to stay out	25:30
	to work in the fields, did they?	25:33
	Did they do anything special to try and help?	25:36
-	No, because, see, there wasn't no kind of aid	25:39
	then that they could help with.	25:42
	Only thing you do, if you went if you want or could	25:44
	and there wasn't no	25:47
	opponent to nobody if you can, you go.	25:51
	That's all.	25:54
	It just was another thing if you could, you want to go,	25:55
	you did go.	25:58
	Some wanted to go and didn't go, some could go	25:59
	and would play hooky and wouldn't go, that kind of thing.	26:03
-	Did you know anybody who'd do that?	26:06
-	Well, I knew two or three done it.	26:08
-	Did the teachers ever make special visits to the homes?	26:12
-	No, they didn't then because teachers didn't even have no	26:17
	automobiles to ride in.	26:21
	Be walking up and down the road four or five miles	26:24
	to try and find those people parents.	26:28
-	Where did your teachers stay?	26:32
	Did they have a house or did they stay with?	26:33
-	Yeah, they were rooming with someone.	26:34
	Rooming with someone up there.	26:38
-	Did you go to, you went through 7th grade, then?	26:42
-	No, no, no.	26:45
	I didn't get through that.	26:46
-	How far did you go?	26:48
-	3rd.	26:50
-	3rd?	26:51
-	Hm-mmm.	26:52
-	Did you know teachers who went to visit families?	26:56
-	Yeah, yeah.	26:59
	I had two teacher that lived right in the community	27:00
	and in fact she lived here for about 20 years.	27:04
	She was there, students didn't come to school,	27:07
	she would really check on them.	27:10
	She did that.	27:13
-	Why wouldn't students be coming to school?	27:14
-	Well, you see then, like he said,	27:17
	there was nobody to check on them and all that.	27:22
	Some of them didn't want to go and they didn't go.	27:25
-	Would they be trying to find work someplace?	27:30
-	Some of them did.	27:34
	Some of them would and some of them	27:35
	just didn't want to go to school so they didn't go.	27:38
-	Pretty typical (laughs).	27:41
-	It's mandatory now, it wasn't then	27:44
	and the children did basically what they wanted to do.	27:47
	If they got up to a certain age and if they decided	27:49
	they didn't want to go to school they didn't go.	27:52
	Some of them did work, some of them didn't.	27:55
	It's like with this play, you know what I mean.	27:57
	For various reasons.	28:00
-	Right.	28:01
	How far from Cove City did you live, sir?	28:03
-	About six miles.	28:06
-	About six miles.	28:07
	On the other side?	28:08
-	Yeah, kind of off to your north side.	28:10
-	Okay.	28:13
	Were there any bad parts of town for you	28:16
	and I guess community for you, that your parents did not	28:21
	want you to go to?	28:26
-	Well, yeah.	28:28
	There was a place we know over the creek route	28:29
	half way that distance.	28:33
	We lived on one side that creek.	28:36
	We went on the other side of that creek	28:38
	over there in Cove City, more likely do some trouble.	28:40
-	What's that?	28:44
-	Them boys wanting to fight if you go over,	28:46
	that old creek went over there.	28:48
-	White boys or Black boys?	28:50
-	Black boys, we had no trouble with White.	28:52
	What was the name of the creek?	28:55
-	We called it Cold Creek.	28:58
-	Cold Creek.	28:59
	So your parents didn't want you to go over to the other side	29:01
	of that creek?	29:03
-	Nah, if I did that I'd be in trouble.	29:04
-	Did you?	29:06
-	Ever once in a while we got caught over there,	29:07
	what happened the last time, got over there	29:10
	then got into something and the law got it.	29:12
	Everybody knows broke up sitting over there.	29:15
-	I bet.	29:18
	No more going over there.	29:19
-	Yeah, that.	29:21
-	What about you ma'am?	29:22
	Were there areas that your parents didn't want you to go to	29:23
	or your family to-?	29:28
-	We didn't get no farther than right here in James City.	29:31
	For me there was no special area.	29:35
	Here out of respect.	29:38
	We respect most in our community.	29:41
-	Would you define your community,	29:46
	your neighborhood as James City in general	29:48
	or was there more specific boundaries to it.	29:50
-	No, that's James City in general.	29:54
-	Wow.	29:56
-	The people were, you know, were close.	29:58
	The people were very close here, it's not like it is today.	30:04
	You can have a family living next door,	30:07
	you don't even know them.	30:08
	Everybody knew everybody.	30:10
	If your child did something wrong, then you would get	30:12
	a report on it.	30:16
	Then the parents would appreciate that and they could	30:18
	follow up on it.	30:20
	But today you can't even go to a parent and tell them	30:21
	that their child did something, they don't appreciate.	30:23
	But then mostly everybody kept check on everybody else.	30:27
-	Sounds like it.	30:31
-	But then there was some people, they weren't all the best	30:34
	of people, you know there's some bad people everywhere.	30:38
	You know?	30:40
	Every now and then some things would flare up,	30:42
	but we stayed out of this.	30:46
-	What kinds of things did you do for fun as children?	30:49
-	Well, really not too much for us to do.	30:53
	We played hopscotch a lot, I remember that,	30:58
	playing that as a child.	31:00
	And I think a little baseball.	31:03
	That was very popular.	31:06
-	Yeah, we played ball with all the boys.	31:08
	Played ball.	31:11
-	The older people, they would go from house to house	31:13
	doing quilting, they enjoyed that.	31:16
	But the young people didn't seem to have much of anything	31:19
	to do, I can't remember too many things that we did,	31:22
	the games or whatnot.	31:26
	Could have been a few more but I can't remember what we did.	31:28
	We went to school, then, mostly.	31:33
	We went to school and whatever would happen,	31:35
	would happen there.	31:36
	Weekends, we went to church and Sunday school.	31:38
	And that was, you had to go to church and Sunday school.	31:41
-	Were there any swimming holes?	31:47
	Like you said, the creek that you could just go hang out	31:49
	and play in?	31:53
-	Oh yes, yes.	31:54
	We had a lot that just run down to the shore	31:55
	and just go down there.	31:58
	And get our own boat.	32:00
	We fished, did that.	32:03
	Caught crabs and whatnot.	32:05
	It was good and fun.	32:08
	We would just run in the woods and just run,	32:11
	we just had fun plain running from the tree and the leaves	32:13
	and all of that.	32:17
	That was fun for us then,	32:18
	but the children don't consider that, we stayed outside.	32:20
-	What about you, sir?	32:26
	What did you do for fun?	32:26
-	Played ball, baseball, in the summertime we probably might	32:28
	go down to the creek and swim.	32:33
	Play down there whatnot.	32:37
-	Did have you your own baseball team?	32:41
-	Well, in the area, the neighborhood we had a team.	32:43
-	Did you give yourself a name?	32:47
-	We always called it Asbury.	32:50
-	The what?	32:52
-	Asbury.	32:53
-	Oh, okay.	32:54
	Did you play other neighborhoods?	32:58
-	Yeah, we played about, I'd say,	32:59
	four or five different teams.	33:03
-	How old were you then when you were playing baseball?	33:07
-	About 12, 14.	33:10
-	When you stopped going to school,	33:13
	did you just work full time then?	33:14
-	Just about.	33:16
-	How many kids were in your family?	33:18
-	Eight.	33:20
-	So you all were doing a lot of work, farm work?	33:24
-	Right.	33:27
-	How old were you when you decided to leave	33:31
	Cove City area	33:35
	and come here?	33:37
-	Well, around about 25.	33:39
-	Oh, so you spent a lot of time.	33:43
	Had you moved away from your family before?	33:46
-	Yeah.	33:50
-	So you were out on your own.	33:51
-	Was there a specific incident or event	33:54
	that made you decide to just leave and come here	33:57
	or was it the opening of?	34:00
-	Well, the only thing was that	34:02
	I was trying to get- move some things	34:05
	from this job down here to have a	34:08
	main thing.	34:13
	Now I got to go, can I.	34:18
	Bought a small house and then from then on	34:20
	I stopped working at the base	34:25
	and I ended up working for myself trucking.	34:26
	I worked about 32 years for myself trucking.	34:30
-	Oh really?	34:36
	So did you work at Cherry Point then?	34:39
-	I worked Cherry Point about 28 months.	34:41
-	Okay.	34:46
	How come you stopped working there?	34:48
-	Well, I just didn't like it.	34:51
	Every morning going down, every morning head out, head out,	34:54
	head out and at that time they wasn't paying	34:58
	that kind of money nowhere.	35:01
	They wasn't paying but 41 cents a hour.	35:03
	And that didn't add up, you know.	35:12
-	No.	35:14
-	Yeah, yeah, that didn't add up nice.	35:15
	See, I could see I wasn't getting nowhere with that much.	35:17
	I could see that was-	35:22
	I'd probably better try to do something by myself, you know?	35:24
-	Right, right.	35:28
	What kind of work were you doing up there?	35:30
-	At Cherry Point? I was chauffeuring.	35:33
	For the Navy.	35:36
-	The Navy?	35:38
-	Yeah, I would show 'em and then I went there	35:39
	for the operating machines.	35:43
-	Where would you take people?	35:45
	Just around the base or would you take them	35:48
	all over North Carolina?	35:50
-	No, no.	35:52
	I would take and run from Oak Grove to Jacksonville,	35:53
	Camp Lejeune and down to Morehead,	35:59
	Atlantic and back in to Havelock.	36:03
-	I've heard that Cherry Point was,	36:10
	well, several people have talked to me about Cherry Point	36:15
	and that it was really tough	36:22
	being a Black marine first of all at Cherry Point.	36:25
	And also it was real tough being a Black civilian employee	36:28
	of Cherry Point in the early days, probably straight up	36:33
	through the '60s it sounds like.	36:38
	Was it tough for you?	36:41
-	No, it was really nice for me.	36:43
	It was really nice.	36:45
	I advanced there.	36:46
-	How come you think that's the case?	36:49
-	Hmmm?	36:51
-	How come?	36:52
	How come you think that that was okay for you?	36:54
-	Well, I didn't always care myself that a way.	36:56
	I didn't care what I went into.	36:59
	I always advanced in it, you know what I'm saying?	37:00
	I was down there at Cherry Point nine months,	37:05
	I had made a map.	37:08
	You get a raise once a year, and they give three raises.	37:10
	Map was how you could get a raise.	37:14
	In nine months the map was paid.	37:16
	Got to get out there before eight,	37:21
	went and sit in the lineup	37:23
	and send it to them in nine months.	37:24
	Man say he couldn't raise me no more when that went out.	37:26
	So I get myself together, get the others,	37:30
	and get out of there.	37:32
-	So you decided to leave	37:35
	because you couldn't advance any further?	37:36
-	Yeah, they don't know where to go and he say	37:38
	they not going to give me no transfers.	37:40
	We have a duty we have to get more money.	37:42
-	Right.	37:44
	How did you two of you meet?	37:46
-	Well, there ain't no long to it or short to it.	37:50
-	Just before you get to that I was just thinking about	37:55
	childhood things.	37:57
-	Okay.	37:59
-	I remember we played jumping rope a lot	38:01
	and bottle caps, them were a lot of fun.	38:02
	We did have a little place that we could go and have fun,	38:06
	it was a little juke joint.	38:10
	You could put a quarter in there, nickel, whatever	38:12
	and we would dance.	38:17
-	There were three for a quarter dancing.	38:19
-	(laughs) That was a lot of fun.	38:21
-	Two or three record for a quarter then.	38:22
-	That was a while ago, though.	38:24
	Not any more.	38:26
-	That was a lot of fun for us.	38:27
-	Where was the juke joint?	38:29
-	Right in the neighborhood.	38:30
	Then it was right on the waterfront so you could go down,	38:31
	there was something like a picnic area.	38:35
-	They called it the beach.	38:37
-	We called it the beach.	38:38
-	Did you have pickle houses or juke joints	38:40
	over where you were growing up too?	38:42
-	Hm-mmm.	38:44
-	No?	38:44
-	Had to come to town.	38:45
-	You had to come to town.	38:46
-	Come to town.	38:48
-	How about in Cove City?	38:49
	Were there any in Cove City?	38:50
-	No.	38:51
-	You had to come all the way here?	38:52
-	Come all the way here.	38:53
-	This was a real popular place that was here.	38:54
-	Did the juke joints have liquor in them?	39:03
-	Well, yeah.	39:06
-	Did they what?	39:09
-	Liquor?	39:10
-	Yeah.	39:10
-	Were there some that did and some that didn't?	39:11
-	Yeah.	39:13
-	Yes, well.	39:14
-	Every joint had.	39:16
-	Or would they sell it secretly?	39:18
-	Oh yes.	39:19
-	They had to because of (indistinct)	39:20
-	So there were people who could go to the juke joint	39:24
	to dance and not to drink?	39:26
-	Oh yes.	39:29
-	You had to go there to dance.	39:30
-	But they would sell it sort of on the sly?	39:32
-	Yeah.	39:34
-	To those people who wanted to.	39:34
-	Yeah, right.	39:36
-	I see.	39:37
	So were there more than one in this area	39:39
	or were there?	39:41
-	No, this was really the popular one.	39:43
	This was a good sized place	39:45
	were a lot of people could gather.	39:47
-	Yeah.	39:48
	What about medicine shows or tent shows,	39:50
	did anything like that come through?	39:54
-	Every now and then we would have them come to town,	39:56
	once or twice there'd be a circus or something like that.	39:57
	At the same time for the circus to come to town, oh yes.	40:01
	Elephants walking down the street, you know.	40:03
	That was lots of fun.	40:05
-	It was.	40:07
-	Now they going to settle up in the tent	40:08
	where we could just	40:09
	go and stand on the street and the animals would go down	40:10
	the street, that was so much fun when we were growing up.	40:14
-	Where would they pitch their tent?	40:17
	Was it in James City?	40:20
-	It was in New Bern.	40:22
	We would always have to go to New Bern for that.	40:22
-	How would you get over there?	40:24
-	We would walk.	40:26
	A few people had cars then, you know,	40:29
	they had their cars and parked.	40:32
	A lot of people traveled that way.	40:35
	But most of the time we would walk	40:37
	or we would just walk over the bridge.	40:38
	People always did a lot of walking then.	40:41
	They had no choice.	40:45
-	Yeah, really.	40:47
-	Yeah, we walked wherever we went.	40:50
	We walked to school, we walked to town to do our shopping,	40:52
	we did everything.	40:56
-	Where did you do your shopping?	40:57
-	It was in New Bern.	40:58
	Then you had a few stores here.	41:00
	My mother would walk from her house to the little store,	41:04
	just a few steps from where I'm living now.	41:08
	I remember that store very well.	41:11
-	What was the name of it?	41:13
-	Solomon Philips.	41:14
	The man who owned the store was named Solomon Philips	41:16
	and he had his country store.	41:18
	It was well stocked with everything.	41:21
	My mother would go and buy things and she would raise	41:23
	as much as she could on her own and if she bought a	41:27
	watermelon my mother would walk from that store	41:31
	all the way home with that watermelon on her head.	41:34
	It was a center of attention, the children would laugh	41:39
	and I would put my head down (laughs).	41:42
	But my mother could do that, my mother was a tall woman,	41:45
	about six feet.	41:47
	She could stand up and walk with that watermelon	41:49
	all the way home on her head	41:52
	and that watermelon would not fall.	41:54
	I tell my children about that night and they said,	41:57
	"Momma, how did she do it?"	42:00
	I said, "I don't know but she did it."	42:01
	Sure did.	42:05
-	Where would you do your clothes shopping?	42:07
-	Oh, we didn't go none of those stores.	42:11
	We didn't have any stores like that.	42:14
	Not that I can recall, not on this side.	42:17
	We were always going to New Bern.	42:20
-	Was it McClellan's?	42:22
-	Well, Coplon-Smith was one of the stores.	42:24
-	Sam Lipman.	42:29
-	Sam Lipman was a furniture store.	42:30
-	No, not Sam Lipman no furniture store.	42:33
-	Sam Lipman.	42:35
	(indistinct) was a little pharmacy, you see?	42:36
-	Oh, oh, my God, I remember that.	42:37
	All I remember, Montgomery Ward and all of that.	42:41
	JC Penney.	42:45
	Seems like those are the other ones that I remember.	42:47
-	Were there stores that were more accommodating	42:50
	to Black patrons than others?	42:52
	Were there certain stores that you knew it was okay	42:55
	for you to go in and that they'd treat you	42:57
	half way decently as compared to other places?	43:00
-	Oh, it was awful.	43:02
-	Look, for me I didn't have any trouble with anything	43:05
	but the restaurants.	43:09
	Whether you go in a clothing store, shoe store buying stuff,	43:10
	there was no problem.	43:15
-	They take your money.	43:16
-	There was no problem.	43:17
-	It won't be like that once you in their restaurant	43:18
	eating with them, you know?	43:20
-	So you think that the clothing stores and those stores	43:22
	were not as bad as the restaurants?	43:26
-	It was not	43:28
-	Oh no.	43:29
-	You could go round in them and-	43:30
-	You could buy clothes.	43:32
-	Shoes-	43:33
-	How would they treat you?	43:34
-	Real nice.	43:35
-	Well.	43:37
	Not too bad if you wanted to buy something,	43:40
	they knew you wanted to buy something,	43:42
	they accepted your money.	43:44
	Back then people didn't shop really too much	43:47
	like they do now.	43:49
-	Could you try things on?	43:50
-	Yes, I could.	43:52
-	I don't remember.	43:54
-	I did, I remember that I did.	43:56
-	There were no bathrooms there, if you had to go to the	44:00
	bathroom you just had to make it home because everything	44:03
	was saying Black, White, Negro, or whatever	44:05
	and words like that, you know.	44:10
	They were just awful.	44:13
-	You mentioned about restaurants.	44:15
-	Oh no, they was out.	44:17
	You go to the window, some of them would serve you	44:20
	something to an outside window, you might pick it up	44:22
	through a window on the outside.	44:25
	That was all.	44:28
	One day I just went in and I needed something	44:29
	and I just went on in the front door	44:32
	and I asked to speak to the boss man	44:34
	and they didn't chase me out.	44:36
	I remember something they needed for the school	44:38
	and I just went on in there	44:41
	and everybody was standing around and I don't know,	44:42
	I had no problems with him that time.	44:46
	I don't know why but anyway, it was really bad then,	44:49
	it was getting a little better.	44:51
-	That was when you were teaching?	44:52
-	Yes.	44:54
	But then if you wanted something as a child,	44:55
	when I was growing up you had to go to the window to get it.	44:58
	Because you definitely couldn't even get	45:03
	on the inside to get it.	45:05
-	Were there any restaurants that you could eat inside?	45:06
-	No, not if you were Black.	45:08
-	One or two places had a little bar in the back	45:10
	kind of place for Black people.	45:14
-	But some Black people, one or two Black people owned	45:17
	later on, later years.	45:19
-	I been talking about the White.	45:22
-	Oh, no.	45:23
-	One or two of them had a bakery that said	45:24
	Black in the back.	45:27
-	Do you remember the names of those places?	45:29
-	I know John Moore had a place you could get,	45:31
	let's see if I can remember.	45:35
-	That was late years, now, I mean late.	45:37
-	That was late years?	45:39
-	Yes, yes.	45:40
-	'60s?	45:41
	'70s or '50s?	45:43
	But when you were growing up was there any place?	45:46
-	No.	45:49
	No ma'am.	45:50
	He's older than I am.	45:53
-	Little Joe Silverman there, he had a place.	45:55
	He serve anybody.	45:59
-	Yeah Joe.	46:00
-	White man?	46:03
-	Yeah, he had a sandwich shop, remember the sandwich shop?	46:04
-	Uh-huh.	46:06
-	He'd serve anybody?	46:07
-	Anybody.	46:08
-	How come?	46:08
-	Well, he was a Jew and he wanted the money.	46:10
-	Because he was what?	46:13
-	He was a Jew and he wanted the money.	46:15
	(all laughing)	46:17
-	He can take you farther back than I can.	46:19
	He knows.	46:20
-	Yeah, but really 90% of the business	46:24
	that was really downtown was,	46:27
	the Jews, one or two.	46:32
	And that's why you could walk in the little clothing stores.	46:35

Chris	So the Whites	0:03
	wouldn't let you into the restaurants,	0:03
	but the Jews would let you into the clothing stores?	0:05
RT	Yeah,	0:07
	whatever he was selling.	0:08
	If you want to get what he was selling,	0:09
	Jew or (indistinct)	0:10
	He didn't care what he was selling,	0:12
	you can come on and get some, thank you very much.	0:14
Chris	Did he charge the same prices?	0:15
RT	Huh?	0:17
Chris	Did he charge the same prices for Blacks?	0:17
RT	Yeah, yeah, yeah.	0:19
Chris	I wanted to take you back	0:21
	to where you were growing up.	0:22
	Was there commissary at any of the-?	0:24
RT	Yeah.	0:27
	Yeah.	0:28
Chris	The places that you were working at on the farms?	0:29
RT	Yeah.	0:31
	Well, another one,	0:32
	it depends on the farm.	0:33
	The man had a little saw mill	0:34
	that he was having a commissary for,	0:36
	a commissary for his crew working through the mill,	0:38
	the farmer.	0:43
Chris	Where did your family get supplies?	0:44
RT	They, my family, they mostly didn't get supplies	0:46
	from that commissary	0:49
	'cause that was mostly for his people work there	0:51
	where he could get his money every a week from.	0:54
Chris	Right.	0:56
	Where did you get supplies?	0:57
RT	Where did they get supplies at?	0:58
	From there,	0:59
	they had a place set up in New Bern for my family.	1:00
	For my daddy, we would go to New Bern every month.	1:04
	He would come and get so much like the bale of flour,	1:08
	and hundred pounds of meal,	1:13
	a hundred pounds of meat,	1:16
	50 pounds of lard,	1:16
	something like that.	1:18
Chris	What was the name of the place?	1:19
RT	Well, let's see.	1:21
	I believe it was Maxwell.	1:24
	Mac, Mac.	1:25
	(phone ringing)	1:27
RT	What was the name?	1:28
RT	Maxwell.	1:30
Chris	Maxwell.	1:30
RT	Wholesale groceries.	1:31
Chris	Did you father buy on credit?	1:32
RT	Yeah.	1:34
Chris	Do you know of the prices?	1:36
RT	No.	1:37
	No, but you, I know you could get a,	1:38
	90 pounds of flour.	1:41
	Took two of them to make a bale,	1:44
	and you could get that for about $3.	1:47
Chris	Were the prices different	1:49
	for the credit customers	1:50
	than they were for the cash customers?	1:52
RT	Well, that you couldn't hardly figure out	1:54
	how mad he was.	1:56
	(indistinct)
	There, I believe he charged interest on the money.	1:58
Chris	The credit customers?	2:02
RT	Yeah.	2:04
	You have to pay interest or whatever,	2:05
	you know that.	2:07
	You buy a hundred dollars, have to pay 10%.	2:08
Chris	Interest.	2:11
RT	Interest on it	2:12
	to get the top.	2:13
Chris	Okay.	2:15
	Okay, now we're back to the question of how you two met.	2:19
RT	Oh, oh,	2:24
	well that's one of them things.	2:25
	I was, I known her mother,	2:29
	her brother,	2:31
	and her cousin.	2:33
	I knew the family well.	2:35
Chris	How did you know?	2:36
RT	I know them well,	2:38
	because I was around her mother,	2:39
	but she wasn't there.	2:41
	She was off in school.	2:42
Chris	At Winston-Salem?	2:46
RT	By me, knowing them,	2:48
	by me meeting up and visiting, done,	2:51
	and when I run into her.	2:53
	That how we met.	2:55
Chris	So how come you were,	2:57
	were you living here in James City then?	2:59
RT	Yes, I was.	3:01
Chris	Okay,
	so how come you were,	3:02
	how come you knew the family?	3:03
	How come you knew?	3:04
	I mean, did you live close by,	3:06
	or did you?	3:07
RT	Yeah, she's not too far. Nearby.	3:08
	Must've said, just about four or five blocks.	3:10
Chris	Okay.	3:12
	Did you go to the same church?	3:14
RT	No, we didn't go to same church.	3:16
	But I know them.	3:19
	I knew her cousin.	3:21
	He had some buses out.	3:23
	He could drive one.	3:25
Chris	Okay.	3:26
RT	And the driver on the bus for him.	3:27
Chris	So what'd you think of him?	3:29
RT	Huh?	3:32
Emma	Yeah, I was, you know, in school and all,	3:34
	and I guess this happened here, it did.	3:39
	(women chuckling)	3:41
Chris	How long did you court?	3:43
RT	Four years or more.	3:45
Chris	While you were away at school?	3:47
RT	No, wasn't no way in school so much.	3:49
Emma	No.	3:53
	No.	3:55
	Well, did I meet you before I went to school?	3:56
RT	Uh uh.	3:59
Emma	No, no.	4:00
	It was after I went to school.	4:02
	It must been the last two years.	4:04
RT	It wasn't in the first?	4:06
Emma	I think I had been to school about two years	4:08
	when I met you there.	4:10
	After that I got out of school.	4:12
	When I was out of school about,	4:16
	yeah, I was out of school about two years	4:19
	before we actually met.	4:21
RT	You was?	4:24
Emma	Yeah, about two.	4:25
RT	You was.	4:26
	(indistinct)	4:26
Emma	Yeah, about two years.	4:29
	(indistinct)	4:31
	I worked in the Dover area,	4:32
	and then I was transferred to.	4:34
RT	Then you come out here and teach at '51.	4:37
Emma	'51.	4:38
	Graduated '51.	4:40
RT	You didn't get married till '54.	4:41
	Yeah.	4:42
Chris	So how come you waited to get married?	4:45
Emma	Well, I wanted to work awhile,	4:47
	you know, get settled in a job.	4:49
	So I did get a job and I worked at Dover.	4:51
	That was my first job, Dover in North Carolina,	4:54
	and they transferred me to,	4:57
	it was called Hollow then.	5:00
-	Craven County.	5:02
	Havelock, Havelock.	5:03
	It's still Craven County.	5:04
Chris	Yeah, I know what you mean.	5:05
Emma	And that's when we were married.	5:07
	When I was working down there.	5:08
	And I had four children.	5:11
Chris	Wow.	5:12
	Wow.	5:14
	So did you move or were you driving?	5:16
	Travel?	5:18
Emma	I was driving
	every day.	5:20
	Yeah.	5:21
Chris	Wow.
	How was that with four children?	5:22
Emma	Well, we carpooled.	5:24
	You know.	5:26
	I made it from New Bern.	5:27
	We lived in the New Bern area.	5:29
	We just carpooled there.	5:30
	She'd drive a week and I'd drive a week.	5:32
	And the principal of the school, you know,	5:34
	we all four of us I think carpooled,	5:36
	so it wasn't bad.	5:38
	I'd have a week of the month,	5:39
	week out of a month to drive.	5:41
	And of course I had a sister right here	5:43
	to take care of my children.	5:45
Chris	Okay.	5:46
Emma	And wasn't no problem.	5:48
	But everybody said, how in the world	5:50
	did you work with those children?	5:52
	But as a child, I wanted to be a teacher.	5:53
	I love children	5:57
	and it didn't bother me at all.	5:59
	I enjoyed my work,	6:03
	and I enjoyed my children,	6:04
	and all doing very well today.	6:06
Chris	Wonderful.	6:09
Emma	Being away from home,	6:09
	and all but one she has moved back home.	6:10
Chris	What grade did you teach, ma'am?	6:15
Emma	Well, I started off at teaching this second grade	6:17
	and third grade,	6:21
	and then I moved back to first grade,	6:21
	down to kindergarten.	6:25
Chris	Oh.	6:27
Emma	That's where I spent most of my years,	6:27
	in kindergarten,	6:29
	and I loved it dearly.	6:30
Chris	Okay.	6:31
Emma	Until I retired.	6:32
Chris	Wow.	6:33
	Wow.	6:34
	You really love children.	6:35
Emma	Yeah.	6:37
	Yeah, I love children.	6:38
Chris	Can I ask you about your experience	6:40
	at Winston-Salem State?	6:41
	How was it,	6:43
	how was it different from your life here at New Bern?	6:44
Emma	Well.	6:48
Chris	Or in James City?
Emma	I lived in dormitory, you know?	6:49
Chris	Yeah.	6:51
Emma	And some students, you know,	6:52
	they lived out in the city,	6:53
	and I've never been away from home before.	6:54
	And I liked dormitory life well.	6:57
	When I left here,	6:59
	I had a roommate from New Bern,	7:01
	so I was kind of lonely because,	7:04
	you know, it was my first time being away from home.	7:06
Chris	Sure.	7:08
Emma	But I got along pretty good.	7:09
	And then after changing from one roommate to another,	7:10
	then I learned, you know,	7:15
	from people from other areas, you know,	7:16
	and I got along just fine.	7:19
	Occasionally I would come home,	7:20
	but I didn't come and go	7:22
	'cause a long ways from home,	7:23
	and I had to take a train sometimes, you know,	7:24
	it'd take a long time to get home.	7:27
	And, but I spent four years there and I enjoyed it,	7:29
	graduated.	7:33
	And really, I didn't do much travel.	7:35
	I didn't have much experience with traveling	7:38
	and all of that.	7:41
	And still didn't do much.	7:43
	I, even after I got, I go to workshops and things like that,	7:45
	but they had a lot of activities going,	7:49
	you know, on the college campus,	7:51
	and all things that we could go to.	7:52
	And that helped me a lot.	7:54
Chris	Like what kinds of things?	7:56
Emma	They had, like,	7:59
	you know, sorority meetings.	8:01
Chris	Did you belong to a sorority?	8:03
Emma	Well, I started off, you know,	8:06
	with AKA, but I didn't stay in it.	8:08
Chris	How come?	8:10
Emma	Well, you know,	8:11
	sometimes it gets expensive and you don't have the money	8:13
	to keep putting into all these things.	8:16
	So I didn't go on with that too much, you know?	8:18
	And, you know, they had homecoming and things like that,	8:23
	and, you know,	8:26
	had other little activities going on,	8:27
	and they just kept something all the time	8:30
	that you didn't have just sit up in the dormitory, you know?	8:32
	And they just try to keep you occupied.	8:35
	And then I had a little job on this side.	8:37
	I was an assistant librarian,	8:39
	so that gave me a little spending money.	8:41
Chris	Oh cool.	8:43
Emma	I'd help out in the library after hours.	8:44
	And that really helped me a lot too, you know?	8:47
Chris	Winston-Salem was a lot bigger than New Bern.	8:50
Emma	Oh, yes.	8:52
	Yes, yes.	8:53
RT	Oh, yes.
Emma	Big city.	8:55
Chris	Yeah.
Emma	Yeah.	8:56
Chris	What was it like
	moving to the big city?	8:57
Emma	Oh, I was lost!	8:58
	(laughing)	9:00
	A little country girl moving into the city, you know.	9:01
	It took me a while to get adjusted.	9:03
Chris	Oh, I bet!	9:05
	(women laughing)
Emma	Yeah.	9:07
	Oh, yes.	9:08
	And you know, they were very strict, you know?	9:09
	The matron would always check the rooms at night, you know,	9:11
	and see if you were in that room.	9:14
	And I did have a roommate who slipped out, you know?	9:17
	They would slip out sometimes,	9:20
	and they would come back, you know?	9:22
	And you couldn't tell.	9:23
	Said, you better not tell, you know?	9:24
	But one or two got caught	9:27
	and they suspended them,	9:30
	but I wasn't bothered with that	9:31
	'cause I was,	9:34
	I didn't do that.	9:35
Chris	Yeah.	9:36
Emma	I didn't break
	no rules.	9:37
Chris	Where would people slip out to?	9:38
Emma	Well, they would just out in the city,	9:40
	dancing and whatnot.	9:43
	You know what I mean?	9:44
	And the night watchman, you know,	9:46
	having to catch 'em that night.	9:46
	They were in trouble.	9:49
	Some of 'em really had to go home, you know,	9:50
	like they missed about three months, you know?	9:52
	'Cause they had to spend the rest of the year home	9:55
	and then come back to next year.	9:58
	Yeah.	10:00
	They got in all sorts of trouble, you know?	10:02
	Oh yes, yes, yes.	10:04
	Now I guess they can just hang out there	10:06
	and don't come back if they don't want to.	10:08
	As long as they at class at eight o'clock in the morning,	10:10
	whatever.	10:12
Chris	Right, right.	10:13
Emma	So I appreciated that then, you know?	10:14
Chris	Yeah.	10:17
Emma	Nothing like the kids now.	10:17
	Yeah.	10:20
	It's something else now.	10:20
Chris	So while your future wife was in school,	10:21
	what kind of work were you doing?	10:24
RT	So I was trucking.	10:27
	I was trucking.	10:29
	I had a truck hauling.	10:30
Chris	What kind of things would you haul?	10:33
RT	Fuller, feed.	10:36
Chris	Okay.	10:38
RT	Pork, turkey, chicken.	10:40
Chris	Were you independent,	10:44
	or did you work for company?	10:44
RT	Yeah, independent.	10:45
	Haul into town whoever wants something hauled	10:47
	with a haul and moving it.	10:49
Chris	How did you,	10:51
	how was traveling during that time?	10:53
RT	It was pretty nice,	10:56
	but you just,	10:57
	you get out of the grocery store dock,	10:58
	you know what I mean?	11:01
	Just pretty complicated to stop there	11:03
	and just go in the restaurant.	11:06
Chris	What do you mean complicated?	11:08
RT	You didn't.	11:10
Chris	Okay.	11:11
RT	Didn't. Got to find a Black place out,	11:12
	some didn't open late night or early morning,	11:14
	like White was early, you know?	11:17
Chris	How would you find out about a place	11:19
	where you could,	11:21
	did, were there ways that you could find out	11:24
	about a place that you could sit and eat, you know?	11:26
RT	Yeah.	11:29
Chris	Like a Black place?
RT	When you do that,	11:30
	when you getting your load unloaded, you talk to peoples.	11:32
	When you're unloading that, see?	11:35
Chris	Right.	11:36
RT	Where can we eat at around here,	11:37
	and how's that super secret thing going on around,	11:38
	you know, same.	11:41
	I get information that way.	11:42
Chris	I see.	11:44
	What about staying overnight?	11:45
	Did you ever have to stay overnight while you were trucking?	11:47
RT	Yeah.	11:49
Chris	How would you manage that?	11:50
RT	Right in the truck.	11:52
Chris	You'd sleep in the truck?	11:53
RT	Yeah.	11:54
Chris	Is,	11:55
	now at that time,	11:56
	I know now trucks have those bed things,	11:58
	but did they have them then?	12:02
RT	I didn't have one.	12:03
	On one of I had,	12:04
	a bed.	12:06
Chris	You did.	12:07
	Did you feel safe staying in the truck at night?	12:10
RT	Yeah.	12:13
	If I would land the truck to the destination I was going,	12:14
	then I felt safe.	12:19
	'Cause I, from the yard, I knew I was safe.	12:20
Chris	Did you ever hear about any truckers	12:24
	who might have gotten,	12:25
	I'm talking about Black truckers now,	12:27
	who might have gotten hurt?	12:29
RT	Not then.	12:31
Chris	When?	12:33
RT	Then within the late years	12:34
	I'd been hearing a lot.	12:35
	Along then you didn't hear.	12:36
Chris	What have you been hearing about it	12:38
	in the late years?	12:40
RT	I didn't hear about the beating them up	12:42
	and all that stuff,	12:44
	and pulling by the truck or what I saw on TV.	12:46
Chris	Did you hear of any of that stuff going on?	12:50
RT	In California.	12:52
Chris	With people that you know?	12:53
RT	No, uh-uh.	12:55
	No.	12:58
	No, I remember one	12:59
	Swing, down here to the-	13:01
	Forgot the name of the place right now.	13:03
	I was pulled in there one night about nine o'clock,	13:07
	and I just fell right in the truck and went on to sleep.	13:11
	And he come out here in mid morning,	13:15
	piece me out.	13:18
	So I, having that truck all night	13:21
	and he had a big house there I could've slept in.	13:23
Chris	He had a big what?	13:26
RT	Big house that I could slept in.	13:27
Chris	Oh.	13:30
RT	And he called his wife	13:31
	and told her, feed me some breakfast.	13:32
	And while he was unloading,	13:34
	he told me to go up there and eat.	13:35
	I went in and she treated me to a nice breakfast.	13:38
Chris	Who was that?	13:40
RT	Swing, down near,	13:41
	can't think of the name of the place,	13:43
	on 15.	13:45
Chris	Oh, Mr. Swing.
	You were hauling.	13:46
	What were you hauling to it?	13:47
RT	I hauled for MC, Beam.	13:48
	That about 300 miles from here.	13:49
Chris	Is this a White man or Black man?	13:52
RT	White man.	13:53
Chris	Okay.
RT	No.	13:57
Chris	Where would you travel?	13:58
	Would you just travel in North Carolina,	13:59
	or were you traveling up throughout South Carolina	14:00
	and Tennessee?	14:02
RT	Well, I'd run both.
	I'd run both.	14:04
Chris	How far would you go?	14:06
RT	I've been out to Georgia,	14:08
	hauling steel from Augusta, Georgia,	14:10
	New York.	14:14
Chris	How would you get your jobs in the early days?	14:17
	(man chuckling)	14:20
RT	Well,
	you mostly got it through by who you were working for	14:21
	on these things.	14:24
	They would probably recommend you to somebody, you know?	14:26
Chris	What do you mean by working by somebody?	14:30
RT	Who I was hauling.	14:33
	Who I had done a major hauling for on this end or that end.	14:33
	Somebody would be equipped to them about it	14:37
	and he would recommend me, you know?	14:40
Chris	Okay.	14:43
	So you'd haul stuff one place,	14:44
	then you'd pick something up at that place,	14:47
	and haul it back?	14:50
RT	Sometimes.	14:51
	Sometimes you did that.	14:52
Chris	Sounds like you were on the road a lot.	14:53
RT	Yeah, yeah.	14:54
Chris	So you were home alone with the kids	14:56
	and your sister a lot?	14:58
Emma	Young kids, most of the time.	15:00
Chris	Wow.	15:02
	Was that difficult?	15:04
Emma	Well, I handled it pretty well.	15:06
	(RT chuckling)	15:09
	I handled it pretty well.
	It was hard.	15:12
Chris	Yeah.	15:13
Emma	Really hard.
	And then I didn't have all the (indistinct)	15:14
	'cause she was sick and died.	15:16
	And when I had the last child, I had a hardship.	15:17
	I had take this child out to my other sister	15:23
	and moved from New York,	15:26
	and she kept on until she out of school.	15:28
Chris	Okay.	15:31
Emma	My mother got sick.	15:33
	My sister had to take care of her;	15:34
	the same sister that was sick.	15:36
	Then she got sick about a year after my mother died,	15:38
	and it was kind of a hardship.	15:42
	It really was.	15:44
	But I managed to get through it.	15:46
Chris	Sounds like,	15:49
	it sounds like you had family that really tried	15:51
	to help out eventually.	15:54
Emma	Yeah, yeah.
Chris	What about your church?	15:57
	Did your church try to help out?	15:58
Emma	No, no.	16:01
	I had a method on me in my family, you know?	16:03
Chris	Yeah.	16:05
Emma	I had
	a very dear sister-in-law too.	16:06
	She was good at helping me with the children.	16:09
Chris	Yeah.	16:11
	Your sister-in-law?	16:12
RT	My brother's wife.	16:14
Chris	Okay.	16:15
Emma	Yeah.	16:16
	She was very supportive of my children.	16:18
	Anything they had to go to,	16:22
	she was right there with me, you know, helping out.	16:24
Chris	So did you make most of the decisions then	16:28
	about disciplining children and stuff?	16:30
Emma	Oh yes, yes.	16:32
Chris	Since you were gone?	16:33
Emma	Yes, I did.	16:35
	I had to 'cause I was here most of the time.	16:36
Chris	Right, right.	16:38
	How often would you get back, Mr. Tull?	16:40
RT	I didn't stay away a whole lot of nights.	16:42
Chris	Yeah.	16:44
RT	Sometimes, nights I be here.	16:46
	Getting out before day, morning, you know, that time.	16:50
Chris	What about weekends?	16:54
RT	Yeah, home weekends most time.	16:56
	Sometimes Saturday,	16:59
	most time being at home.	17:01
	Most of the time.	17:04
Chris	How do you think you all	17:05
	raised your children differently from how your children,	17:06
	how you were raised as children?	17:09
RT	Right, right.	17:11
Chris	How do you think,	17:12
	how do you think it was different?	17:13
Emma	Well,	17:16
	as children, we didn't-	17:22
	my children, they had the modern conveniences, you know?	17:25
	And really we had a little bit more to offer our children	17:29
	being brought up.	17:35
	Because our oldest son, you know,	17:38
	I found out that he was musically inclined	17:42
	and I could send him to take music lessons.	17:44
	My son liked baseball,	17:48
	basketball,	17:50
	and he could stay in the afternoon	17:51
	and practice for that.	17:53
	Although he went to school in Havelock.	17:55
	And you didn't hardly see him during the week	17:57
	because he was still for practicing things like that.	18:00
	And they just had things,	18:04
	you know, that they could go to	18:07
	that we didn't have as children growing up, you know?	18:08
	And we were able to give them a little bit more financially,	18:12
	you know?	18:17
	As soon as they got of age	18:17
	they were taught,	18:20
	they were ready to have a little bank account,	18:22
	stuff, and a little bank account.	18:24
	And the boys would get a little job during the summer.	18:26
	And they were boys.	18:29
	My girls didn't do too much, but the boys did.	18:33
	And so, you know, I kept 'em up with me,	18:36
	and knew where, what they were doing.	18:40
	Knew where they were going.	18:42
Chris	Yeah.	18:44
Emma	And,
	it paid off.	18:47
Chris	Do you think that it's,	18:48
	it sounds like it's pretty similar then	18:49
	to what you, how you were raised.	18:50
Emma	Yeah, yeah.	18:53
	I had some good parents.	18:53
	My dad always bought it for me.	18:55
	He said, I want you to be somebody.	18:58
	Though he'd always want us to be nice children.	19:00
	Don't go with the crowd this morning.	19:03
	You going to get into trouble.	19:06
	He always taught us things of life,	19:07
	you know?	19:09
Chris	Right, right.
Emma	And it became a part of us.	19:12
	My mother was very strict.	19:13
	She, you know, doing wrong things,	19:16
	you know, she was religious woman.	19:20
	Very religious.	19:22
	She was a Baptist.	19:24
	My daddy was a Methodist.	19:26
	But they were firm believers.	19:28
	You know, this brought us through it all.	19:29
Chris	How about you, sir?	19:34
	How do you think your childhood was different	19:34
	from your children's childhood?	19:37
RT	A lot of difference.	19:39
Chris	Yeah.	19:41
RT	Yeah, lot of difference.	19:42
	We had a whole lot more,	19:44
	the children, than we.	19:47
	We had a little more interest	19:51
	in what they were trying to do	19:55
	and what my first child did.	19:57
Chris	Do you think that's 'cause	20:01
	they had more to choose from?	20:02
RT	I think so.	20:04
	I think I had more selection to make.	20:05
Emma	Sort of a role model, you know?	20:09
	And I, you know,	20:12
	I talked about collegial and things like that	20:13
	for my children, you know?	20:16
	I bought 'em all kinds of books, what not.	20:17
	Encyclopedias and things like that, you know,	20:20
	and educational games, and things like that.	20:23
	Things that we didn't have the children growing up,	20:26
	you know?	20:28
	Instead of a lot of this toys	20:30
	or something that you threw out in the yard, you know?	20:31
	I bought my children educational things.	20:34
Chris	When did you start teaching?	20:37
Emma	1953.	20:44
RT	No, it was '50.	20:47
Emma	I think '52.	20:49
	I think I was enrolled in '52.	20:50
	When I graduated in '51	20:52
	I didn't get a job that year,	20:53
	so in next year I think I got a job.	20:55
	And I didn't lose as much time	20:59
	because my first children were born in '58,	21:01
	and in '58, born?	21:06
	Children, they were born in April.	21:11
	I went back to work in September.	21:14
	And the next time I thought	21:18
	well, I did, I lost two years.	21:19
	Yes, I did.	21:20
	Because George was born in November,	21:22
	and then the supervisor would around	21:24
	and they would looking to see if you were pregnant,	21:27
	and if they found out you were pregnant,	21:30
	you had to go just like that.	21:32
Chris	Why?	21:33
Emma	He would get something that	21:35
	they just didn't approve of it back then.	21:37
	Like now you can have the baby today	21:39
	and go back in March.	21:40
Chris	Wow.	21:42
Emma	But, no.
	Oh, no!	21:44
Chris	Where were you teaching then when they were?	21:45
Emma	Here in Craven County.	21:46
Chris	What school?	21:47
Emma	Havelock.	21:50
Chris	Okay.	21:51
	How long did you teach at Havelock?	21:52
Emma	Well, I must have taught in that area	21:54
	around 15 years, I guess.	21:56
Chris	Wow.	22:00
	What kinds of materials?	22:01
	What teaching materials did the county supply you with?	22:07
	How were the conditions in the school that you taught	22:14
	different from the conditions in the school?	22:16
Emma	Oh, we didn't have anything growing up.	22:18
	We just had the book.	22:22
	But now they have my-	22:24
	See, when I got to start teaching then they had the,	22:27
	we didn't have no library in the school where I was in.	22:31
	We didn't have access to that.	22:34
	We didn't have no tapes.	22:36
	We didn't have anything in the school.	22:38
	Nothing but the book when I was going to school.	22:40
	But then when my children came along,	22:42
	then they had access to the library,	22:44
	and shows,	22:48
	you know, video tapes.	22:49
	Not video tapes,	22:51
	but all these other things that we didn't have.	22:52
Chris	What about when you were teaching?	22:58
	When you were teaching,	22:59
	what did you have when you started teaching?	23:00
Emma	Oh, when I started teaching this,	23:04
	it was a four room school.	23:08
	Yeah, four room school.	23:09
	We didn't have a library there.	23:11
	We only had textbooks,	23:12
	and maybe a few encyclopedias,	23:15
	and a dictionary.	23:18
	That was my own we had.	23:20
	We had to make our materials.	23:21
Chris	Okay.	23:23
	Can you talk about what you did?	23:24
Emma	Yeah, well, I made all kind of charts,	23:25
	color charts,	23:28
	word charts, reading charts,	23:29
	made my little stories, you know,	23:31
	for the children to read from the charts.	23:32
	I made that.	23:34
	You make it material.	23:35
	You make your color charts for the wall.	23:37
	You made all the materials around in your room,	23:38
	and now you can just,	23:43
	all that stuff just comes in, you know?	23:44
	It just comes in.	23:47
	All you have to do is place it out there.	23:48
	But I did most of my work myself,	23:49
	and most of the other teachers did too.	23:53
Chris	Right.	23:55
Emma	Flash cards, all of that.	23:56
	We made our materials.	23:57
Chris	Right.	23:58
Emma	But now
	they're given to us.	24:00
Chris	Right.	24:02
	Did you do any work in the summers besides teaching?	24:03
	Did you do?	24:06
Chris	No, I stayed home with my children.	24:07
Chris	You did.	24:08
Emma	I stayed home
	the summer.	24:10
	I thought I'd moved back.	24:11
Chris	Yeah, sure.	24:12
	Sure.	24:13
	Did other teachers have to work during the summer?	24:14
Emma	Oh, yeah.	24:16
	Yeah.	24:16
	Some teachers did have summer jobs,	24:17
	but I never took one.	24:20
Chris	What kinds of jobs would teachers get?	24:21
Emma	You know,	24:25
	they would always have remedial classes.	24:26
Chris	Right.	24:27
Emma	For children.
	And, but those teachers would work in those areas.	24:29
	They would have like little workshops and things going on	24:32
	the child would go.	24:34
	Well, a little job at six weeks	24:37
	for the summer appointment,	24:39
	but they would go and they went with the children,	24:41
	slow learning children,	24:44
	and sort of bring them up, you know,	24:45
	for the next year's work.	24:47
	But I never took a job.	24:49
	Then later on,	24:51
	they moved in classes for adults at night.	24:53
	I never taught one of those.	24:57
	And for the older people, they could come in and help them.	24:59
	Because people just so many people couldn't read or write,	25:03
	you know?	25:06
Chris	Right.	25:07
Emma	And so that
	helped them.	25:08
	And so they could help the children.	25:09
	So it improved over the years.	25:12
	(indistinct)	25:15
	But when I was teaching,	25:17
	really you didn't get no support from the power.	25:19
	None, but the PTA was good.	25:21
	Yeah, the teachers organization,	25:25
	they helped out a lot,	25:27
	and they weren't strong then.	25:29
	And we just, we were just a sad thing.	25:32
	It improved.	25:37
	And then after we got together, you know,	25:39
	we just brought everything,	25:41
	because White people had in their schools	25:43
	what they wanted,	25:46
	and we didn't have anything.	25:48
	We just had the paper, and the pencil, and the textbook.	25:49
	The White people had all the materials packed up in boxes.	25:52
	And I find no good business	25:57
	because I had a friend and she was very smart,	25:59
	very smart.	26:02
	She went to this school.	26:04
	We were the first three Black people	26:06
	that went into this Cherry Point,	26:10
	cosmopolitan area.	26:13
	Thought that was the best thing to do	26:14
	is send us in this area	26:16
	so that we could,	26:18
	let's open things up, you know,	26:19
	so others would want to come, you know?	26:21
Chris	This was during integration?	26:23
Emma	Yeah.	26:24
Chris	Okay.
Emma	Okay.	26:25
	And yeah, really I was, I didn't want to go.	26:26
	But when the superintendent called me and asked me,	26:29
	see, Miss Bill, why you don't want to go?	26:31
	I says, I'm satisfied where I am,	26:33
	because I didn't know how my children were going be treated,	26:34
	you know?	26:37
Chris	Right.
Emma	And 'cause I had heard	26:38
	that it was better on the base there	26:40
	'cause children came from all over the world.	26:42
	You know what I mean?	26:43
	So,	26:45
	the first two went	26:47
	and he told me how well they were doing.	26:49
	And I didn't care how well they were going.	26:51
	I still didn't want to go	26:53
	'cause my school was right here.	26:54
	I could walk.	26:55
	And in about two or three months,	26:57
	then we sent two more.	26:59
	And I was one.	27:01
	I went down there and really, I didn't have no problem.	27:02
	I had children from Germany,	27:07
	and children from this place,	27:10
	and children from that place, you know?	27:11
	There's a mix,	27:13
	and it was beautiful!	27:15
	I enjoyed it.	27:17
Chris	Really?	27:17
Emma	Yeah.
	I enjoyed it,	27:18
	and I got one of the best ratings down there.	27:19
	(woman laughing)	27:22
	Yeah, I think that's when I got to stop,	27:22
	down there.	27:25
Chris	How long were you there?	27:26
Emma	For children.	27:27
	For me!	27:28
	It didn't make no difference if you were Black and White.	27:29
	You was a child.	27:31
Chris	Right.	27:32
Emma	I was going to teach you.	27:33
	The only thing now,	27:35
	I had to discipline you.	27:36
	I tell you, I respond to leave with the discipline.	27:38
	Now you can't do it now.	27:42
	It's child abuse.	27:43
Chris	Right.	27:44
Emma	But now if I had to correct you,	27:45
	you know, I'm trying to do the best that I can.	27:47
	And if I had to,	27:50
	(loud thudding)
	I mean, I didn't hurt a child,	27:51
	didn't leave no scar.	27:53
	No, nothing.	27:54
	But if I had to discipline you, I did it.	27:56
	I had to have your attention	27:58
	because I said, well, I'm wasting my time	27:59
	if you're not going to listen.	28:01
Chris	Right.	28:03
Emma	And I tell you,
	I was a disciplinarian.	28:04
	I wasn't a mean teacher,	28:06
	but I tell you too,	28:08
	we had to learn something before you got out of there.	28:09
Chris	Did you ever have any problems with White parents?	28:12
Emma	Yeah.	28:14
	Oh, yeah.	28:15
	One threatened to,	28:17
	said I'm going to take you downtown.	28:19
	Take you to the police if you hit my child again.	28:20
	And that was one child that I didn't even touch.	28:24
	The child at home told the mother that I hit it.	28:27
	And she believed.	28:29
	So I didn't have no problem with that mother from then on	28:32
	because I'm a student.	28:34
	So I really didn't have no trouble with Black and White.	28:37
	Some of them did,	28:42
	you know they didn't.	28:43
	Some of 'em I helped.	28:45
	I meet 'em every day.	28:47
	Everywhere I go today	28:48
	and say, you one of the best teachers in the world.	28:49
	(woman laughing)	28:52
	So, you know, I just enjoyed my work,	28:54
	and you know,	28:57
	you're not going to have everybody like you anyway.	28:58
Chris	Right.	29:00
Emma	But I think I could go back right next month	29:01
	if I wanted to.	29:05
	A full time job.	29:06
Chris	Wow.	29:08
Emma	Yeah.
	Oh yes.	29:09
	I could go back,	29:10
	but I did a lifetime.	29:11
	I think I need this, my time.	29:12
Chris	Yeah.	29:14
	What kind of values do you think	29:15
	that your parents instilled in you	29:16
	to take you, both of you, up into adulthood?	29:18
Emma	In order to give trust	29:23
	(man chuckling)	29:26
	and knowing what allows you to do.	29:28
	What,	29:31
	when I tell you to leave it there,	29:33
	and treating people right.	29:36
	My mother telled that in the beginning.	29:38
RT	That's not all about it.	29:40
	You moved out of yours,	29:42
	that's not yours, leave it be.	29:43
Chris	Do you remember your mother?	29:46
RT	Yep.	29:48
	Yes, I do.	29:49
Chris	What was she like?	29:51
	What kind of woman was she?	29:52
RT	She was so nice.	29:53
	She was nice.	29:54
	(man chuckling)
	Yeah, very nice.	29:58
Emma	His mother died early.	30:01
	His mother.	30:04
	I think he said she died early.	30:05
RT	Yeah, when I was five.	30:07
Chris	She did?	30:09
	So do you remember her at all?	30:09
RT	Yeah, I can remember.	30:11
Chris	Yeah?	30:12
	What do you remember about her?	30:13
RT	Oh, things that she used to do,	30:14
	mainly canning and stuff in back there,	30:17
	and used to carry me to church.	30:20
Chris	Used to carry you to church?	30:22
	(man agreeing)	30:23
	Yeah.
RT	I remember tying me up in church.	30:25
	I was hollering.	30:27
Chris	She what?	30:30
RT	Take 'em outside and put a smack on her.	30:31
Chris	Oh yeah, you bad.	30:33
	Did your father remarry?	30:37
RT	Yeah.	30:39
Chris	Yeah?	30:40
	So you had a stepmother also?	30:41
	Do you remember her?	30:43
RT	Yeah.	30:44
Chris	What do you remember about her?	30:45
RT	I remember a whole lot about her,	30:47
	which thing I felt like she could have did	30:48
	she didn't do.	30:51
Chris	You didn't get along with her very well?	30:52
RT	Not too good.	30:54
	That what made me shell out.	30:56
Chris	Hmm.	30:58
RT	That what made me leave the house.	30:59
Chris	It was.	31:01
	What happened?	31:02
RT	Well, nothing.	31:04
	It just,	31:04
	not worked, she just wanted all the money and him.	31:05
	Didn't care what I got in the middle of.	31:10
	Didn't care whether my clothes were clean.	31:14
	I know, you know?	31:15
	(woman agreeing)
	I said something the old man said,	31:21
	got my wife now.	31:24
	You want some more money, boy, you better get out here	31:25
	and get your wife.	31:27
	(man chuckling)
	That ain't no problem, little man.	31:30
	That's something that happened.	31:35
Chris	So you left?	31:36
RT	Yeah.	31:38
Chris	Wow.	31:39
	Wow.	31:40
	Where did you live when you moved out?	31:41
RT	Oh, in another farm house.	31:45
Chris	Yeah?	31:47
	Yeah.	31:49
	So did you work on it on the farm by yourself then, or?	31:50
RT	I worked there,	31:52
	little mill or something there for a year or so.	31:53
Chris	Oh, you did?	31:56
	So you worked in a mill?	31:57
	Oh, okay.	31:58
	What was the name of the mill?	32:00
RT	Well, it was little called Claude Alpark.	32:02
Chris	Claude who?	32:07
RT	Claude Alpark Saw Mill.	32:08
Chris	Okay.	32:09
	People have told me that,	32:14
	that really one of the few jobs besides farming	32:15
	that was available to Black man before Cherry Point	32:20
	was working in lumber.	32:23
	Saw mills, lumber.	32:25
	Were there any other kinds of jobs besides farming?	32:28
RT	Well, farming, mills,	32:32
	saw mills around.	32:34
Chris	Yeah.	32:38
RT	All wood.
Emma	Boats.	32:41
	Fishing boats (indistinct)	32:41
RT	Yes, that was people way down east,	32:44
	you know, they'd fish in fishing boats	32:45
	and they still go down there.	32:49
Chris	But not up in this area?	32:51
RT	Very few.	32:54
	Not there.	32:56
Chris	Yeah.	32:57
	(phone ringing)
RT	That doctor, they were called.	32:59
	You ever called?	33:00
Chris	What about working on the river?	33:03
	Were there people who worked on the river?	33:04
	Did any kind of work on the river?	33:11
RT	There wasn't a whole lot around there.	33:12
Chris	I see.	33:14
	I see.	33:15
	Do you remember at any time during your life	33:16
	people treating you like,	33:21
	you feel people treated you	33:24
	like you were a second class citizen?	33:25
RT	No, I don't in my life.	33:29
	I don't really.	33:32
	All the way down to,	33:36
	I don't know when that happened.	33:37
Chris	Really?	33:39
	What about you, ma'am,	33:40
	do you remember growing up	33:40
	feeling like people, that certain people	33:45
	or people in general,	33:47
	treated you like a second class citizen?	33:49
Emma	Yeah.	33:52
	(bells chiming)
Chris	Do you have any examples?	33:54
Emma	Yeah.	33:58
	You know, some people envy, you know,	33:59
	like there's some families	34:02
	feel like you're doing better than they are.	34:05
	You know what I mean?	34:06
Chris	Yeah.	34:07
Emma	And you know, like you,	34:09
	well, maybe you may live in a house that they live,	34:11
	you know?	34:14
	And you go to school when they don't go to school.	34:15
	All those sorts of things come up in life.	34:19
	And people seem to resent you, you know,	34:22
	very resentful, you know?	34:24
	Trying to better your condition by seeing that.	34:27
	Yeah.	34:30
	And you find that even today, you know?	34:31
	You may have a better car,	34:32
	then they feel like you think you're better they are.	34:35
	Your house is better than mine.	34:37
	Your car is better than mine.	34:38
	You know what I mean?	34:39
	But you're just going on,	34:41
	and you just keep on doing your own thing.	34:42
	You see what I mean?	34:44
	Yeah.	34:46
	And that's what life is all about.	34:47
	Bettering your condition, you know?	34:48
	But some people like to stay where they are,	34:50
	and you find that,	34:53
	and it's still here.	34:54
	Yeah.	34:56
Chris	Do you,	34:59
	if you had advice to give to young people today	35:03
	based on your life,	35:07
	based on the knowledge that you've gained,	35:11
	you know, what you've learned from your own life,	35:12
	what kind of advice would you give young people?	35:15
RT	Well, number one with me,	35:20
	something that we just went through while ago with it,	35:24
	you try to put use to everything you do.	35:28
	Make it for something that advance,	35:34
	and stay away from drugs and alcohol stuff.	35:39
	And try to get in close to the church and get with God.	35:47
	And try to keep your job.	35:55
	Keep your job.	36:00
Chris	Jobs hard to come by these days around here?	36:03
Emma	Yes, for young people.	36:05
	It's really hard.	36:07
Chris	Yeah.	36:08
Emma	Yeah.
Chris	What about you, ma'am?	36:10
	What kind of advice would you?	36:11
Emma	Well, I would safely advise the young people	36:13
	to try to strive for the best.	36:16
	You know what I mean?	36:22
	Get a good education	36:24
	and make sure that they are taking care of themselves	36:26
	properly for health wise, you know?	36:32
	And try to get a good job.	36:35
	And to get a good job	36:39
	and work hard.	36:40
Chris	Right.	36:43
Emma	And things
	are not going to come easy.	36:43
	So that would be my advice.	36:45
	To go to school	36:48
	and try to get just as much as they can out of life.	36:50
Chris	Can you think of any questions	36:55
	that I should have asked you that I didn't ask you?	36:56
RT	I don't think so right now.	37:05
Chris	Well, what I'd like to do	37:16
	is spend a couple minutes.	37:17
	What we do is	37:19
	we fill out biographical information	37:19
	to accompany the tape,	37:23
	and I'd like to just take a couple minutes	37:27
	to fill out the information	37:29
	for each of you.	37:34
	We like to have this kind of the biographical information	37:36
	to accompany it,	37:39
	because we've mainly been talking about your thoughts	37:40
	and feelings about it,	37:42
	but nothing we,	37:43
	I haven't really asked you about dates.	37:45
	(woman chuckling)	37:48
	Well, unfortunately this is the dates portion	37:49
	of the interview.	37:51
	So if you, if you can remember dates,	37:52
	that's great.	37:56
	If not, we'll just move on to the next question	37:57
	if that's all right.	38:00
	Okay, we start,	38:02
	and I'll start with ladies first if you don't mind, sir,	38:04
	I'll just go back and forth.	38:07
	What's your full name, ma'am?	38:09
Emma	My name is Emma Lee Tull-Boyd.	38:11
Chris	Maiden name is Boyd?	38:26
Emma	Mm-hmm.	38:27
	This is 403 Plum Street, right?	38:30
Emma	Yeah.	38:32
Chris	And the phone number?	38:41
Emma	633-5471	38:43
	(man coughing)
Chris	And how would you like your name to appear	38:47
	in any written material that might result from this tape?	38:49
Emma	Emma B. Bell. I sign my name.	38:54
	Okay.	38:57
	Okay, sir.	39:00
	Your full name?	39:01
RT	RT, RT,	39:03
	R-H-E-M.	39:05
	T-U-L-L B-E double L.	39:06
Chris	R-E?	39:11
RT	R-H-E-M.	39:11
Chris	R-H, I should know that.	39:13
	H.	39:14
RT	T-U-L-L.	39:15
	B-E-L-L.	39:18
Chris	And how would you like your name	39:22
	to appear in any thing that,	39:23
	any written thing that comes from this tape?	39:26
	Just RT Bell, is that what you said?	39:29
RT	Yeah, that's good.	39:33
Chris	Okay, ma'am, and your date of birth?	39:50
	[Emma] I wouldn't give that (indistinct)	39:52
	[Chris] We don't have to.	39:55
Emma	Okay, let's leave that off.	39:56
Chris	Oh, and you were born here in?	39:57
Emma	James City.	39:59
Chris	Your mother's name?	40:20
Emma	Emma,	40:21
	Emma Burnie.	40:22
	(indistinct)
Chris	You're married for your mother?	40:23
	I mean, you're named for your mother?	40:25
Emma	Emma Burnie.	40:27
Chris	B?	40:29
Emma	U-R.	40:29
Chris	Burnie is her maiden name?	40:36
Emma	That's right.	40:38
Chris	Do you know her date of birth, ma'am?	40:39
Emma	March the 5th, 1898, I believe.	40:43
Chris	And when did she die now?	40:51
Emma	In '65.	40:54
	(indistinct)	40:57
	Except I got that over there in the Bible.	41:01
	Want me to go get my Bible?	41:03
Chris	Sure, sure.	41:04
	Your date of birth, sir?	41:09
RT	The eight month of the 15th day and 15th year.	41:12
	And the 20th day.	41:18
	8/20	41:21
Chris	8/20/1915.	41:23
RT	Right.	41:24
	You got it right.	41:25
Chris	And you were born?	41:27
RT	Wait.	41:31
Chris	Where?	41:33
RT	At the-	41:34
Chris	Up by Cove City?	41:35
	(RT agreeing)
	Do you know what farm you were born on?	41:36
RT	Yeah, on the,	41:38
	on the Alpark.	41:41
Chris	Atwater?	41:42
RT	Alpark.	41:43
	Alpark.	41:44
Chris	Alpark?	41:45
	(RT agreeing)
	That's, yeah, that's still in Craven County, right?	41:56
RT	Yes, yeah.	41:58
Chris	And your mother's name?	42:11
RT	Wilma Lofton Bell.	42:14
Chris	Austin, did you say?	42:16
RT	Lofton.	42:18
Chris	Lausten.	42:18
	(RT agreeing)
	And Lausten is her maiden name?	42:23
	Is that L-A-W, or L-A?	42:26
RT	No, it's.	42:28
	(crosstalk)
	It's L-O-W.	42:30
	Lofton, Lofton.	42:34
Emma	Lofton.	42:36
	L-O-F-T-O-N	42:37
Chris	L-O-F-T-O-N	42:38
	You know when she was born?	42:42
RT	Nope.	42:44
Chris	She died when you were five?	42:45
	Was she born in that area as well, or?	42:49
RT	Yeah, yeah.	42:53
Chris	And your mother was, her occupation?	43:01
	Was she a farm wife?	43:03
RT	Yeah.	43:04
Chris	How about your father's name?	43:07
RT	Mm, Sylvester.	43:09
Chris	Do you know your father's date of birth?	43:18
RT	No.	43:21
Chris	Do you know when he died?	43:22
RT	No.	43:23
Chris	And he was born in Craven County as well?	43:24
	(man agreeing)	43:26
	And he was a farmer?	43:28
RT	Yeah.	43:29
Chris	Whoa.	43:32
	I wrote down that he was a county.	43:34
	(woman chuckling)	43:35
	Sorry.	43:37
	Once I get on a roll here, I don't stop.	43:40
	Okay.	43:42
	We wanted to go back to your mother's.	43:43
Emma	Okay.	43:44
	And now I've made a mistake.	43:45
	She was in 1896.	43:48
Chris	Okay.	43:49
Emma	March the fifth, 1896.	43:52
Chris	Okay.	43:55
Emma	When she died in 1965.	43:56
	I don't have the month.	43:57
Chris	Okay.	43:58
	And she was born where?	44:01
Emma	Here in James City.	44:03
Chris	And she was a housewife?	44:08
Emma	That's right.	44:09
Chris	Your father's name?	44:10
Emma	George,	44:11
	George Boyd.	44:12
Chris	And his date of birth?	44:18
Emma	I don't have it the month,	44:24
	but I.	44:26
Chris	Is it here?	44:26
Emma	1888.	44:29
	No, no, wait a minute.	44:32
	Yeah, 1888.	44:33
	It was 1888.	44:34
	But I don't have the month.	44:36
Chris	That's all right.	44:37
	When did he die?	44:38
Emma	1945.	44:40
	I don't have the month,	44:42
	but I knew it was 1945.	44:44
Chris	And was he born in James City as well?	44:45
	Wow, your whole family was from here.	44:47
Emma	Yeah.	44:51
Chris	What about your grandparents?	44:52
	Were they from this area too?	44:53
Emma	No.	44:54
Chris	Okay.
	And you said your father worked at the saw mill?	44:57
Emma	That's right.	44:59
Chris	Did he do that all of his life?	45:01
	(Emma agreeing)	45:03
	Wow.
	Okay, now we need the names of your brothers and sisters.	45:10
Emma	Okay.	45:13
	Mabel	45:14
	Abraham.	45:15
	(indistinct)	45:19
Chris	Do you know her date of birth?	45:21
Emma	October 8th, 1915.	45:23
Chris	She's still alive?	45:29
	(Emma agreeing)	45:30
	Okay.
	Next?	45:31
Emma	George, George Franklin Boyd.	45:32
	Next, (indistinct)	45:39
	April 16th, 1933.	45:54
Chris	She's still alive?	46:00
Emma	No, she's passed.	46:01
	She died in, gosh,	46:03
	Why can't I remember	46:06
	what year?	46:08
	1981.	46:13
	If I had my Bible up to date,	46:19
	'cause I didn't put all of them in there.	46:20
	(Emma laughs)	46:22
	Okay.	46:23
	And the family.	46:26

Chris Stewart	When you were growing up, did your mother and father vote?	0:25
Rhem Tull Bell	No.	0:29
Chris Stewart	Were there any voting places over in Asbury?	0:31
Rhem Tull Bell	There was, but White.	0:35
Chris Stewart	Was it dangerous for Black folks to vote?	0:38
Rhem Tull Bell	Yes. They wouldn't let us vote.	0:41
Chris Stewart	Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. What about you, ma'am? Mm-hmm. When did you all start voting?	0:44
Emma Boyd Bell	Can't remember. But as soon as I could, I did.	0:55
Chris Stewart	Yeah. Yeah. Were there voting registration drives around here?	1:00
Rhem Tull Bell	Yeah. Mm-hmm.	1:03
Chris Stewart	Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Was it pretty difficult to do it at first?	1:05
Rhem Tull Bell	No. We just [indistinct 00:01:12].	1:10
Chris Stewart	Until it was—Okay. [indistinct 00:01:20]. Were there people who did try and things happened to them? What would happen to people who tried when they shouldn't have?	1:14
Rhem Tull Bell	They wouldn't let them vote.	1:28
Chris Stewart	Yeah. Is there anything like that still going around?	1:32
Rhem Tull Bell	No.	1:36
Emma Boyd Bell	No.	1:37
Chris Stewart	Most people can do it.	1:38
Rhem Tull Bell	[indistinct 00:01:40].	1:39
Emma Boyd Bell	Oh, they're coming out and give you a ride.	1:39
Rhem Tull Bell	Yeah.	1:40
Chris Stewart	Oh, they do. Oh, great. That's great. For people who maybe can't, who are too sick or something.	1:42
Emma Boyd Bell	Wheelchair, whatever.	1:49
Chris Stewart	Oh, that's great. That's great. That's great. Okay, ma'am. You've lived in James City all your life.	1:50
Emma Boyd Bell	Yes. Yes, I have.	1:59
Chris Stewart	Did you live in any other place when you were teaching?	2:02
Emma Boyd Bell	No.	2:04
Chris Stewart	Okay. Wow. How has James City changed?	2:05
Emma Boyd Bell	It's changed that so many different people have moved in and people are living in better homes than they did years ago. Most kids are going to college. They're receiving college education. Oh yeah. We have community organization now that we didn't have. We have a group that work with the youth in the community. Started around, started out around church.	2:15
Chris Stewart	Mm-hmm. What community organization are you talking-	2:52
Emma Boyd Bell	Called the Youth Fellowship Organization. It's a Christian fellowship.	2:56
Chris Stewart	Mm-hmm. Do you think James City is a better place to live today than it was?	3:09
Emma Boyd Bell	Yes. Yes. Much better.	3:12
Chris Stewart	When you were young?	3:12
Emma Boyd Bell	It's improved for Black people. Yes.	3:13
Chris Stewart	Were the streets paved?	3:17
Emma Boyd Bell	No. All dirt. Now the streets are paved. We don't have lights. We need street lights. I would love to see that.	3:18
Chris Stewart	You don't have lights. Is that something that the community's working on, is trying to get street lights or—	3:27
Rhem Tull Bell	Yeah. Yeah.	3:31
Emma Boyd Bell	But we do have city services like garbage, what now.	3:36
Chris Stewart	And you didn't?	3:41
Emma Boyd Bell	We didn't have that before. No.	3:42
Chris Stewart	Ma'am, when you graduated from Winston-Salem State, did you get a BA or a BS?	3:46
Emma Boyd Bell	BS.	3:50
Chris Stewart	In—	3:51
Emma Boyd Bell	Bachelor of science in—	3:51
Chris Stewart	Elementary ed?	3:54
Emma Boyd Bell	I didn't get another degree, but I did further study. I attended summer school workshops and all, but I didn't have the credit to earn a master's degree.	3:58
Chris Stewart	Right. But it sounds like you were trying to pursue towards it.	4:08
Emma Boyd Bell	Oh yes, because it was mandatory that you go every five years anyway. But I'd been in between.	4:12
Chris Stewart	Well, where were you taking courses? Where could you take them?	4:19
Emma Boyd Bell	Well, I went back to Durham. Durham, North Carolina.	4:22
Chris Stewart	Oh, at Central?	4:27
Emma Boyd Bell	Yeah.	4:28
Chris Stewart	Mm-hmm.	4:29
Emma Boyd Bell	Then I went to A&T and had workshops and what not. I was always going to summer camp. And then later on we had workshops within the county at different schools. Around all the schools here.	4:29
Chris Stewart	Have you always worked for Craven County schools?	4:45
Emma Boyd Bell	Yes. Craven County School only. And I worked in eight of them.	4:46
Chris Stewart	When schools integrated, did you get moved around a lot?	4:55
Emma Boyd Bell	I sure did. That's when it started. Exactly when it started. I was at Havelock, and then they decided to open up a new kindergarten. That's how I got to [indistinct 00:05:20]. [indistinct 00:05:20] that's near Dover. So I would sit there to open up, found they had some federal money and they didn't want to lose. So I went to open a new class at [indistinct 00:05:33] elementary school.	5:02
Chris Stewart	Mm-hmm.	5:30
Emma Boyd Bell	15 years I stayed there—	5:30
Chris Stewart	Did White teachers get transferred around a lot or was it mainly Black teachers?	5:40
Emma Boyd Bell	Not as much as the Blacks. Seemed like the Black people were picked on. Every time somebody had to be moved, it was a Black teacher.	5:44
Chris Stewart	Sure. Yep.	5:50
Emma Boyd Bell	[indistinct 00:05:55] my dad going around from school to school like that. I tell you. Every time they have a baby, you would go that same school. You got to get your belongings and go.	5:54
Chris Stewart	So having a baby would get that happening too?	6:04
Emma Boyd Bell	Yes. Yes. You were out if you had a baby, honey. And you didn't know where you were going.	6:07
Chris Stewart	What was so bad about having a baby?	6:12
Emma Boyd Bell	I tell you, I don't know. You know—	6:14
Chris Stewart	It's something women do. They have babies.	6:17
Emma Boyd Bell	And they had a dress code years ago, way back before my time. They had a dress code. You had to dress a certain way. Everybody knew that was a teacher. She had on a certain kind of a dress, had to speak a certain way, not even there, up to here. They'd come in short, if they want to.	6:19
Chris Stewart	Did teachers try to hide being pregnant?	6:35
Emma Boyd Bell	Ooh, they had to. They better.	6:38
Chris Stewart	How did you do it?	6:40
Emma Boyd Bell	Listen, honey. I worked in this [indistinct 00:06:44] school and we had a lady principal, thank the Lord. She knew it. But she kept my secret. The supervisor came one day and I was at this desk and I wore this big suit anyway, and I was getting ready to get up and see her. She says, "Oh, no, no, no, no." I said, "Thank God. Thank God." (Emma and Chris laugh) But she couldn't see me.	6:41
Chris Stewart	Right.	7:01
Emma Boyd Bell	She walked right on up. She enjoyed the story that I was teaching the children. And she walked away. I stayed there six weeks before I gave birth to my twins.	7:09
Chris Stewart	Wow.	7:19
Emma Boyd Bell	She didn't know. I shocked everybody. This was a small school in the country. I didn't have many visitors.	7:20
Chris Stewart	Mm-hmm.	7:28
Emma Boyd Bell	Now when I, for the last two, I couldn't do that. It was the superintendent. I asked if I could work. He said, "No, no, no. You are visible now. Oh, no. No."	7:29
Chris Stewart	What do you mean you were visible now?	7:38
Emma Boyd Bell	You could see. You could see that I was pregnant. I was showing. You know what I mean? Yeah. You could just look at me and say, "Oh yeah, you're pregnant. You got to go." And that's the way it was. I'm sure I had a hard time.	7:39
Chris Stewart	So if you were pregnant and because you were Black, you were having troubles because you were pregnant and because you were Black. People would shift you around to schools too?	7:59
Emma Boyd Bell	No, I think they did the Whites too if they got pregnant.	8:12
Chris Stewart	Right.	8:14
Emma Boyd Bell	They did the Whites. But if you were Black, you just—	8:15
Chris Stewart	You got moved around a lot anyway.	8:20
Emma Boyd Bell	Yeah.	8:22
Chris Stewart	So if you were Black and pregnant—	8:23
Emma Boyd Bell	Yeah (laughs). Yes. Yes. You had a hard time getting back on your job. Sure did.	8:29
Chris Stewart	Wow.	8:37
Emma Boyd Bell	They said, you get along and go. But I didn't have no problem. Every time, I would get a job. So I would stay. I didn't have to miss that much time. The only time, like one was born in November, I stayed out the rest of that year. By the time the school year started again, I was ready. And then the next one was born in October. I was ready the next term. So it really wasn't a problem. I was lucky. Mm-hmm.	8:38
Chris Stewart	Would they actually ask you to resign and then you'd have to get another job?	9:07
Emma Boyd Bell	Oh yeah.	9:13
Chris Stewart	You'd have to reapply all over again?	9:13
Emma Boyd Bell	Yeah. Oh, yes. Yes. Oh yes, yes, yes. You had to resign the minute they found out you were pregnant. You had to go. You had to go.	9:15
Chris Stewart	Wow. Were there women who planned their pregnancies so that they would have babies over the summer and then be able to get back to work in the fall and try to hide their pregnancy throughout the school year—	9:25
Emma Boyd Bell	Some of them did. Some of them couldn't. Some of them did. You had a baby. And now you don't even have to be married.	9:36
Chris Stewart	Yeah. It's amazing how much it changes.	9:43
Emma Boyd Bell	Yeah.	9:45
Chris Stewart	Well, the last thing that I need to do is to ask you permission to use the tape that we've just, the conversation that we've just had and to place it into the collection. And actually, they're into two collections since it'll be in the big collection with all the tapes and as well as the one that's going to come to the James City Historical Society. And what we have is we have a form. It's called an interview agreement form. And you have a couple of choices. You can sign an interview agreement form that says that you can place this tape in the collection without any restriction so that students can come and listen to it, teachers can listen to it and use the material that was in here to talk about life in Craven County, teaching, James City. Since you've been living here so long, there's good information about James City. Or the other option is you can place restrictions on the tape. Any sort of restriction that you'd like to place, you can place.	9:47
Emma Boyd Bell	Well, I'll tell you, I would like to hear it myself before I say yes.	10:46
Chris Stewart	Okay.	10:47
Emma Boyd Bell	I sure would.	10:47
Chris Stewart	Can I suggest this? That I will place, if I fill out a form today that states that you would like this tape closed until you hear from it so that I don't have to call you back again. Now, what that will mean is that for both of you, it will be closed until you get a copy of the tape and transcript. Now, do you want to approve the tape and transcript or do you just want a copy of the tape and transcript?	10:51
Emma Boyd Bell	I want a copy of it. I would love to have a copy.	11:20
Chris Stewart	Okay. Okay. That's what we'll do then. And I'm going to fill out one for each of you, if that's all right. With the same restrictions.	11:21
Emma Boyd Bell	Mm-hmm.	11:35
Chris Stewart	Okay.	11:35
Emma Boyd Bell	You got me here.	11:35
Chris Stewart	Hm? Oh yeah. Yeah. Okay. What I've written is that Mr. and Mrs. Bell would like this interview closed, which means that nobody can listen to it until they receive a copy of the tape.	11:35
Emma Boyd Bell	That's exactly it.	12:19
Chris Stewart	Okay. And I'll fill out one of these for each of you.	12:22
Emma Boyd Bell	Okay. All right.	12:25
Chris Stewart	It's really unfortunate that here you're living in James City and your address is a New Bern address.	12:42
Emma Boyd Bell	Yeah. Yeah.	12:50
Chris Stewart	That just doesn't seem right.	12:50
Rhem Tull Bell	We know have no post office in James City now.	12:51
Emma Boyd Bell	We used to have a post office here years ago.	12:54
Chris Stewart	When did it-	12:57
Emma Boyd Bell	It was James City.	12:57
Rhem Tull Bell	About 10 years ago.	12:59
Emma Boyd Bell	[indistinct 00:13:08] I guess named something. [indistinct 00:13:10].	12:59
Rhem Tull Bell	Well, what they done, they built one down the road further about a couple miles and named it New Forest, I think.	13:11
Emma Boyd Bell	Neuse Forest.	13:14
Rhem Tull Bell	They figured they didn't, they run that for a while. They already built that one. But then they figured there wasn't enough going on to keep that one open.	13:17
Chris Stewart	Do you think that the opening of Cherry Point had something to do with the James City being swallowed by New Bern?	13:24
Emma Boyd Bell	No, no, no, no. But see, that's 19 miles away. I don't think so. James City had held on for its own, on its own for a long, long time. And it seemed like they were just taking everything from James City.	13:37
Chris Stewart	Like what?	13:52
Emma Boyd Bell	Yes. The people's homes. And here come the bridge and now here come another bridge and—	13:52
Rhem Tull Bell	Airport.	14:00
Emma Boyd Bell	Airport. Seem like to me, they just wants us to disappear.	14:01
Chris Stewart	What do you mean that they're taking it? I mean—	14:10
Emma Boyd Bell	Well, you see, they're extending the runway. They want to extend the runway. You see what I mean.	14:14
Chris Stewart	And they want to extend it into this area.	14:20
Emma Boyd Bell	Uh-huh. And they think that that's progress. Well, I know it's progress. But these people have been here all their lives. You know what I mean?	14:21
Chris Stewart	There's progress. And then there's progress.	14:27
Emma Boyd Bell	That's right. That's right. And now they're coming here for another bridge. They're going to upset some of the same people that had to share some of the property before. It's just now—	14:30
Chris Stewart	You think that's occurring because these are Black folks living out here?	14:43
Emma Boyd Bell	Well, I don't think they would do it if it was White. I don't think they would. Now see, they're not touching the businesses. This business been here all of my life. All of my life. Before I got here. And this business, well, it hadn't been here that long. But they're not touching those businesses. But they going right through the Black people just like that. It doesn't matter.	14:46
Chris Stewart	Are these Black owned or White owned businesses?	15:07
Emma Boyd Bell	Oh, White. White, White.	15:08
Chris Stewart	Did they used to be Black owned?	15:10
Emma Boyd Bell	No.	15:11
Chris Stewart	They've always been White owned. So even though James City is pretty much a Black town—?	15:12
Emma Boyd Bell	Oh yes. Yes.	15:18
Chris Stewart	It had White owned businesses in here.	15:19
Emma Boyd Bell	Oh yeah. Oh sure. Yeah. Oh yes. Uh-huh. Yeah. The slaves, they were the ones that built the little tents on the shores of the Neuse River. Right? Right? Yeah.	15:22
Chris Stewart	Well, James City has got such a wonderful history. Such a great, incredible—All these little Black communities around in this area have got such a rich history. And it does sound like a lot of the stuff that's happening here in James City is happening in other places as well.	15:38
Emma Boyd Bell	[indistinct 00:15:55] Wood cemetery disappeared.	15:54
Chris Stewart	That was the airport, right?	16:00
Emma Boyd Bell	Airport [indistinct 00:16:04].	16:03
Chris Stewart	That's just sacrilegious.	16:03
Emma Boyd Bell	My folk grandparents are [indistinct 00:16:08].	16:05
Chris Stewart	Were your grandparents buried there?	16:08
Emma Boyd Bell	Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Great, great. Mm-hmm. Oh yes. Yeah. Great and great [indistinct 00:16:16].	16:10
Chris Stewart	How did they justify putting a runway on top of a graveyard?	16:16
Emma Boyd Bell	Honey, they do anything they want to do when they want to. No question about it.	16:23
Chris Stewart	That's like sacred ground.	16:28
Emma Boyd Bell	Yeah. Yes. Yes.	16:30
Chris Stewart	Those are people's—	16:35
Emma Boyd Bell	Honey, they rip up bones and everything. Everything visible.	16:36
Chris Stewart	You could see it.	16:37
Emma Boyd Bell	Oh yes.	16:38
Chris Stewart	Oh my goodness. When did that happen?	16:39
Emma Boyd Bell	When they getting that for the runway over here.	16:43
Chris Stewart	How long ago was that?	16:45
Emma Boyd Bell	Several years now. It hadn't been that long yet. I remember my house that they—First house that they built out there. And they told them that graves were there. They sold the people the land and they just developed all what they had to dig up and built this fine home right over the graves. Right. That's right. No markers, no nothing. I don't even know where my folks are buried. I know they say over here, I remember over there, because we as children used to go see our aunt. She lived in the area and that's all I know. I remember that. Seeing the headstones and all that. And that's it. Now the cemetery right here, they're doing the same thing. They're right on the edge now. They built a food store right on the edge of the cemetery. And after a while they'll be over the cemetery.	16:50
Chris Stewart	This isn't the airport now. This isn't the runway. This is something else?	17:43
Emma Boyd Bell	No.	17:46
Chris Stewart	This is a food—	17:47
Emma Boyd Bell	The food store not in the cemetery, but I said it's close.	17:47
Chris Stewart	Oh it is.	17:51
Emma Boyd Bell	Uh-huh. Now they're talking about making a highway when they do the runway and that will go in the cemetery. So that thing. I tell you, it seem like to me every time. And it's really hurtful. People feel real bad about it. Do you see what I mean? Because this is all that we have. Yeah. Right in the middle of that highway that you came down today. I had relatives living in there.	17:51
Chris Stewart	Really?	18:22
Emma Boyd Bell	And they had to move for the highway. Yeah. Oh yeah.	18:22
Chris Stewart	And they didn't offer to move any of the graves, to re—	18:25
Emma Boyd Bell	No, no, no, no. No. And there used to be another one right up here. I don't know what happened to the cemetary. Nobody said a word about it. Just disappeared overnight. What happened to that?	18:29
Rhem Tull Bell	So your home is where?	18:49
Chris Stewart	I'm originally from Minnesota. [indistinct 00:18:58]. I'm originally from Minnesota, but I'm coming down here to go to school.	18:51
Rhem Tull Bell	Mm-hmm. What were your parents into for a living?	19:07
Chris Stewart	My father worked for the state. My mom's a nurse.	19:13
Emma Boyd Bell	You have brothers and sisters?	19:17
Chris Stewart	I have five brothers and sisters.	19:19
Emma Boyd Bell	Oh. How nice.	19:20
Chris Stewart	I come from a good sized family.	19:20
Emma Boyd Bell	Good. Wonderful. Wonderful.	19:22
Chris Stewart	Yep. Come from a good sized family.	19:23
Emma Boyd Bell	That's great. That is great.	19:25
Chris Stewart	Yep.	19:28
Emma Boyd Bell	Wonderful.	19:29
Chris Stewart	I'm the only one who lives out this far though.	19:29
Emma Boyd Bell	Really?	19:31
Chris Stewart	I live furthest away from all my family. I tell you. You don't realize how—	19:33

Item Info

Title:

Emma Bell (primary interviewee) and Rhem Bell interview recording, 1993 July 29

Date:

July 29, 1993

Creator:

Contributor:

Stewart, Chris M.

Description:

Name: Emma Boyd Bell; Date of birth: unknown; Place of birth: James City, NC; Occupation(s): educator; Residence: James City, NC?. Name: Rhem Tull Bell; Date of birth: 1915-08-20; Place of birth: Craven Co., NC; Occupation(s): agriculture; teamster;; Residence: James City, NC?
Informant ID: 294; Informant ID: 295; Interviewed by: Chris Stewart.

Occupation:

Educator

Location:

Format:

Language:

English

Digital Collection:

Behind the Veil

Source Collection:

Behind the Veil: Documenting African American Life in the Jim Crow South interviews, photographs, and project records, circa 1864-2011, bulk 1990-2004

Series:

Related Resources:

See below

Provenance:

The David M. Rubenstein Rare Book and Manuscript Library acquired the Records of the Behind the Veil Oral History Project from the Duke University Center for Documentary Studies in 1997, 1998, 2000, and 2002.

Rights:

Limited Re-Use

CC BY-NC 4.0

Rights Note:

Copyright for content created by the Behind the Veil project is held by Duke University and made available to the public using a Creative Commons Attribution / Non-commercial (CC-BY-NC) license.

Identifier:

RL00170-CS-0976
RL00170-CS-0977
73682c3f-dd3c-4bcc-9064-db00cf43f719
behindtheveil
a9bb17cb-b09c-4a2d-b837-c8aecb4547c2
ark:/87924/r4k35zp4r
a9bb17cb-b09c-4a2d-b837-c8aecb4547c2

Permalink:

https://idn.duke.edu/ark:/87924/r4k35zp4r

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Emma Bell (primary interviewee) and Rhem Bell interview recording, 1993 July 29

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1. Emma Bell and Rhem Bell administrative file, 1993

John Hope Franklin Research Center

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John Hope Franklin Research Center

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