Doris Hall interview recording, 1995 July 26

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Doris Gibson Hall	Okay. My name is Doris Gibson Hall. And I was born, I was born on Proescher Street in the Huntersville area. I was born April the 20th, 1933.	0:03
Mary Hebert	So the Huntersville area?	0:18
Doris Gibson Hall	Yeah.	0:20
Mary Hebert	You were born in Huntersville?	0:20
Doris Gibson Hall	I was born in Huntersville, Proescher Street.	0:22
Mary Hebert	P-R-O-G-E-R?	0:23
Doris Gibson Hall	P-R-O-C-E-S-C-H-E-R, Proescher.	0:25
Mary Hebert	Oh, okay. P-R-O-C-E—?	0:30
Doris Gibson Hall	H-E—Okay. Proescher.	0:33
Mary Hebert	Okay.	0:35
Doris Gibson Hall	Okay.	0:35
Mary Hebert	And what were your parents? What were their names?	0:39
Doris Gibson Hall	Okay. My mother, my mother's name was Mary Dixon and she married my daddy. His name was Theophilus. T-H-E-O-P-H-I-L-U-S, Theophilus Gibson.	0:42
Mary Hebert	And what did they do for a living?	0:56
Doris Gibson Hall	Well, my mother was a practical nurse and he worked. My mother was telling me at first when I was born, it was during The Depression, and he used to go and stand on the corner and wait for the trucks to come to pick beans and whatever and come back home. But during that time, my mama said you could buy a local bread for 3 cents and all that.	0:58
Mary Hebert	Right.	1:29
Doris Gibson Hall	And she used to say, "Well, we always had food because your daddy never came home without a paycheck, that's why." She used to say it for years, "As long as I've been married—" They got married when she was 20, he was 21. And she said as long as she can remember, my dad always had a payday.	1:30
Mary Hebert	So he found work?	1:47
Doris Gibson Hall	He found work. He always found—	1:48
Mary Hebert	He knew it was there.	1:53
Doris Gibson Hall	Yes, and then after a while he worked on the railroad.	1:53
Mary Hebert	Was he gone a lot when you were a child?	1:56
Doris Gibson Hall	No.	1:57
Mary Hebert	So he worked here?	1:58
Doris Gibson Hall	He worked right here in the area. He was always home at night. He always came home.	1:59
Mary Hebert	Oh, and what hospital did your mother work at?	2:05
Doris Gibson Hall	My mother first started working at Old St. Vincent's. It's de Paul now, but it was on Church Street at the time. Old St. Vincent's Hospital. And then she worked at the community hospital.	2:07
Mary Hebert	What kind of training did she have? Did she go to college?	2:28
Doris Gibson Hall	No, she didn't. She didn't go to college. She didn't go to college then, but she took the practical nursing course that they gave at the school, because when she got pregnant with me, she was a senior and so I think she had about 13 or 14 credits to go before she could graduate.	2:32
Mary Hebert	And so she did that after she had you?	2:51
Doris Gibson Hall	She did that after. We were going to school together. I was going to John T. West and she was going to Booker T. Daddy would give her 25 cents, give me 15 cents. She went back, I was nine and she was 29.	2:53
Mary Hebert	And she went back to school?	3:05
Doris Gibson Hall	She went back to Booker T. and she finished, and I was there when she marched.	3:06
Mary Hebert	Are you the oldest?	3:12
Doris Gibson Hall	I'm the oldest and my mother had another child when I was 13 and a half. I was the only child, until I was 13 and a half.	3:14
Mary Hebert	Oh my goodness.	3:21
Doris Gibson Hall	I was some kind of upset with her.	3:21
Mary Hebert	Where'd you go to school? You said John T. West?	3:28
Doris Gibson Hall	I went to John T. West Elementary School and from there I went to Booker T. but during that time, we didn't have a junior high and a senior—Booker T was a junior high and senior high. Once I was junior high and next I was high school, and I went there. I went there, I went to junior high until the eighth grade, then my mother was working nights and she didn't want me to be home without them. I was the only child then. So she sent me to Thyne Institute in Chase City, which was a boarding school. First she tried to get me into Charlotte Hawkins Brown School, but I was too young. They said you had to be able to comb your hair, whatever. So I had a cousin. I was in Thyne Institute in Chase City, Virginia. So I went there and I stayed there a year. When I came back to Booker T. I was a year ahead of my other people, other class. So I graduated at 16.	3:30
Mary Hebert	Did you miss your parents that year you were gone away?	4:30
Doris Gibson Hall	I missed them to a certain extent, but my mama, every time she got a holiday, she would catch that bus, honey and come to Thyne. And we would be looking for Mama because we know she had a care box, a big care box. My dad was a packer. By this time, my dad was working at the base. He had gotten a job at the base and he was a packer and he would pack. Girl, the box would be this little and honey, man, I finished opening up the whole bed full of stuff because he was such a good packer.	4:33
Mary Hebert	So he could pack something like a box full of sweaters or something else?	5:01
Doris Gibson Hall	Yeah, yeah. Right. It had a whole lot of stuff.	5:04
Mary Hebert	So he knew exactly how to put everything in there?	5:07
Doris Gibson Hall	Yeah, yeah. Mm-hmm.	5:10
Mary Hebert	Do you remember some of your teachers from John T. West? Anyone that influenced you?	5:11
Doris Gibson Hall	Oh, okay. We had Ms. Sykes, she was the piano plunking music teacher and she had everybody singing. Then we had Ms. Epps and Ms. Clayton and Ms. Smith.	5:16
Mary Hebert	Were they strict teachers? Strict?	5:35
Doris Gibson Hall	Relatively, yeah. They made you mad. During that time, teachers made you mad and the parents didn't mind that the teacher is making you mad.	5:38
Mary Hebert	Right, right. And if you misbehaved in class with the teacher, they'd tell your parents?	5:48
Doris Gibson Hall	Yeah, they'd tell your parents. Yeah. Call Mama and said, "Yeah, Doris is misbehaving." So I knew all about this because I got pregnant when I was 15, and Ms. Alejandro, I'll never forget her, she called Mama and told Mama, said, "Doris don't mind sleeping in the class." And that's when I had to tell her that I was pregnant. And I was such a good student that the principal was Western Douglas then, and I had gotten married. They let you know during that time, you marry them whether they—	5:52
Mary Hebert	Right.	6:22
Doris Gibson Hall	You're getting married, whether you want to get married or not. So I was 15 that March when I got married, and I turned 16 that April. So during that, that was '49. I turned 16 in '49, then I had the baby. I graduated in June.	6:24
Mary Hebert	So they let you stay in school?	6:50
Doris Gibson Hall	They let me stay in school and I had the baby. I graduated in June, then I had the baby in September. So '49 was my year.	6:50
Mary Hebert	You had a lot of stuff going on there.	6:55
Doris Gibson Hall	I'll never forget '49.	6:55
Mary Hebert	And so you finished at 16?	7:01
Doris Gibson Hall	Yeah.	7:02
Mary Hebert	High school?	7:03
Doris Gibson Hall	Uh-huh.	7:03
Mary Hebert	Were you a good student?	7:05
Doris Gibson Hall	I was a good student, yeah.	7:05
Mary Hebert	Do you remember about World War II and how that impacted the Norfolk area?	7:09
Doris Gibson Hall	The World War?	7:14
Mary Hebert	Yeah.	7:15
Doris Gibson Hall	What I remember about World War II was the dark shades. You had to buy dark green shades because we had blackouts and you hear the siren, then you hear the siren, you get your cameras out, your flashlight, and pull on your shades and just be quiet. And all the lights would be out and you could see the beam in the sky where they were looking for plants and stuff. You could see them. It was really weird, it was eerie then.	7:16
Mary Hebert	Scary?	7:46
Doris Gibson Hall	And scary.	7:47
Mary Hebert	Were y'all afraid that Norfolk would be attacked and—?	7:48
Doris Gibson Hall	Yeah, because we have a seaport, we right here. All the water, all the ships and everything. Yeah, Norfolk was very important at that time.	7:51
Mary Hebert	They had a lot of soldiers and Navy?	7:58
Doris Gibson Hall	Yeah. Yeah, and Main Street was full of Sailors, and so you walked down—I was a child, but you felt safe then even with the sailors and the soldiers. Nobody bothered you. You felt safe. You didn't have to lock your doors and nothing like it is now.	8:01
Mary Hebert	Did you spend a lot of time on Church Street when you were a child?	8:16
Doris Gibson Hall	No.	8:18
Mary Hebert	An adult?	8:18
Doris Gibson Hall	No, I went to the movie, we had the Booker T. Theater, and the Regal Theater. Went to the movies. Oh, the day after the day I got married, we went to the Regal Theater and saw a picture. Anyway, I would go on Church Street, you see most of the shops are on Church Street then. I remember when I was growing up, yeah. L. Snyders, and Altschul's and the nice department stores, but Church Street was booming.	8:19
Mary Hebert	Is that where your mother shopped too? I mean, you and your mother?	8:45
Doris Gibson Hall	Yeah, my mother shopped at Penney's, she and her family, because I had very, very narrow feet and see, little teeny narrow heels. Mama said I had, excuse me for expressing, White folks' feet. And so we would go to Thalhimers and if they didn't have my size, then we'd go around the corner on Main Street, the Tony Shoe store, if they didn't have my size, we would get on the ferry and go across. They would crawl across to Portsmouth, we'd get on the ferry and go to Portsmouth and get the shoes. They would save the shoes for us.	8:48
Mary Hebert	Could you try on the shoes in the store?	9:21
Doris Gibson Hall	Oh, yes. Yes.	9:22
Mary Hebert	So sometimes you had to take the ferry all the way to Portsmouth to get shoes?	9:24
Doris Gibson Hall	Yeah. Yeah, because my feet, the size of my feet.	9:27
Mary Hebert	Where did you live after you got married?	9:33
Doris Gibson Hall	Where'd I live?	9:35
Mary Hebert	Yeah.	9:36
Doris Gibson Hall	First I lived down the street from my mother. I had a room. We had a room, me and my husband, but his mother, he was an only child, I was the only child, it just didn't work out. He didn't want to go to school, and I was going to school, and this girl every day trying to finish. Mama was giving me lunch money, giving him lunch money, but he didn't have the initiative too. So, one day I came home, it was so hot and I was pregnant and I said, "You got to go." So I packed my clothes and went back down the street to Mama's and he went back home to his mama and that was the end of that.	9:37
Doris Gibson Hall	So I got divorced. I got a divorce, and I was going with this guy that was a neighbor of mine, he was older, I went with him and I got pregnant by him. So I divorced Alfred. My name was my name was Riddick then, and I divorced him, and I married William Hall. He had been in the Navy and then he joined, he went after I got pregnant. He joined the army and he was in the Korean conflict, and that's when he got wounded. Came back all simple and stupid and shell shocked and then he became abusive.	10:07
Mary Hebert	So you had to care for him when he came back?	10:44
Doris Gibson Hall	I cared for him because he was wounded. He was wounded and he had all these children and he was a possessive guy and you couldn't go anywhere and I had eight children.	10:46
Mary Hebert	Eight of them?	10:57
Doris Gibson Hall	Mm-hmm.	10:57
Mary Hebert	How did your mother react when she found out that you were pregnant that first time?	11:01
Doris Gibson Hall	During that time, Mama was just so upset and hurt because she saved my money, I was supposed to be going to Shaw Institute. She saved all the money, the money from my graduate, all the money for my tuitions and everything.	11:05
Mary Hebert	And what did you do for a living? Did you work?	11:22
Doris Gibson Hall	No.	11:23
Mary Hebert	No? You stayed home and took care of the children?	11:26
Doris Gibson Hall	Yeah, because see, by that time, Mama had had her little boy. And see my brother is just three years older than my son.	11:27
Mary Hebert	Than your son that you had—?	11:32
Doris Gibson Hall	So I had two babies, and when I used to go out, they'd say, "Lord, that little fresh girl, she done had another baby." But the baby was—	11:33
Mary Hebert	It was your brother.	11:39
Doris Gibson Hall	This last baby was my brother now. Oh, boy.	11:45
Mary Hebert	So you took care of your little brother while your mother worked?	11:46
Doris Gibson Hall	Yeah, and my baby, and then I had another baby the next year by the guy. Again, I got married.	11:48
Mary Hebert	Did you live near your mother after you married?	11:59
Doris Gibson Hall	I lived near her for a while. Then I moved to a section called Oakwood. And from Oakwood, I moved to the Tidewater Park. From Tidewater Park to Roberts Park, and I stayed there 26 years and I raised all the kids in Roberts Park.	12:02
Mary Hebert	And then you moved out to Berkeley?	12:20
Doris Gibson Hall	I moved here. And see during that time this was considered better because I paid my rent. So they said, "But Doris, you—" I worked for North Redevelopment Housing Authority. And after my baby got old enough to go to school, I worked for the Start program. I worked there for nine years in daycare. And my daughter and my kids went to the Start program.	12:21
Mary Hebert	The Head Start?	12:48
Doris Gibson Hall	Yeah, Head Start. Head Start. I started, I was one of the first in Head Start in 1965. Then I stayed there until '74, and then I had an opportunity, they told me to stay. Well, they were building a new daycare center in Roberts Park, which I was living and said, "Doris, why don't you—? Since you are in daycare—" said, "We'll elevate, we'll promote you, we'll give you a class of your own and A's of your own if you would just come and work for us." Which I did in 1974 until 1975, but it didn't pan out that way. It was a promotion, what you call it? Modernization program, and the government was giving you money. When the government, the modernization money gave out, that meant I didn't have a job. They were going to terminate me. And I said, "I have eight kids, I let my job go at stop because you all promised me that I would have the same benefits."	12:51
Doris Gibson Hall	But they didn't. So I said, "Well, I have to have a job." So I was on them. I said, "I have to have a job. I have eight children." So they finally said, "Well—" I'll never forget the man's name was Mr. Bodenhamer, he worked for the house and thought he—He said, "Doris, you afraid of heights?" I said, "No, sir." He said, "Do you think you could climb on top of a house?" I said, "Yes, sir." He said, "I'm going to try you. I'm going to try you in." No, first I was in—I'm getting ahead of myself. Okay, so when they didn't have any more modernization money, I filled out the paper to go to what you call an apprentice, and see if you don't know, you just don't know, I was going to be an apprentice in plumbing. But what I should have done was take an apprentice in electrician. I should have did that. Electrical and in refrigeration.	13:44
Mary Hebert	Did they make more money?	14:37
Doris Gibson Hall	Yes, and then the pipe, when I was in, they sent me to vo-tech because I was the only one that passed. I was the only woman that passed it. I was the first woman apprentice that they had. But the pipe, when they sent me to vo-tech, the further along in the course, the pipe got so heavy and I couldn't caught those big pipes. Big and round as my body.	14:38
Mary Hebert	They were too big for you?	14:58
Doris Gibson Hall	Yeah, too big for me to lift. So I had to get out of that program. So that's when they asked me could I climb on top of the house, said "Doris, we'll put you in maintenance." And that's where I stayed, I stayed in maintenance until I retired in April.	14:58
Mary Hebert	That housing?	15:17
Doris Gibson Hall	North Redevelopment Housing Authority.	15:17
Mary Hebert	How were you treated as a woman as a plumber's apprentice? I mean how did the men treat you?	15:19
Doris Gibson Hall	Well the man didn't, the boss didn't want me in the shop from the get go. Now he didn't mistreat me, but he didn't act like he was in love. He'd tolerate. I say he just tolerated me because I was put there and he even had a sledge hammerer made to fit my hand and all that because he was determined that I was going break up a tub and cast iron tubs. But the guys were real nice because they would break up the tubs from me. They would let me lift pieces down. I worked real hard, but I threaded pipe. I lifted 20 feet a 20-foot pipe, and during that time I had a hand threader. And then, until they got an electric threader, I had to thread the ends of both of the pipes with my hand. I worked for Housing Authority, honey.	15:23
Mary Hebert	Oh my goodness.	16:05
Doris Gibson Hall	And then after that I went to Liberty Park and I climbed on top of the houses, got the leaves from out the gutters and those houses were deteriorating. I'm all running the house with help with a guy, I'm working with this guy, holding the flashlight so he can unthaw the frozen pipes all under. I'm on my back brushing aside dead cat hair where the cats done died. Liberty Park was full of cats, cats that died, I don't know how you brushing with cat hair, cat fur, so you can hold the [indistinct 00:16:37]. Honey, I had it.	16:07
Doris Gibson Hall	I picked up paper all over the park. You had to roll these trash cans around. But see, I tell you how people were doing it. I tell you how people react to your situations. When I was working for Start, I had friends. Everybody was nice. Friend, friend. Some of the people that saw me when I was working for the houses that I had to wear the uniform, I'm pushing the trashcan, picking up paper, you know, they'll walk by me or ride by me and acting like they didn't see me.	16:38
Mary Hebert	They pretend they didn't know you or—?	17:06
Doris Gibson Hall	Yeah, pretend they didn't know me.	17:07
Mary Hebert	Because you were doing manual labor?	17:09
Doris Gibson Hall	Because I was doing manual labor, picking up paper, regular streets and whatever. But I didn't give a damn, excuse the expression, because I had my kids to take care of and I was making a check and I was getting pretty good money for a woman during that time.	17:10
Mary Hebert	Were you one of the few women working for the Housing Authority?	17:25
Doris Gibson Hall	Yeah, and maintenance.	17:26
Mary Hebert	And maintenance?	17:28
Doris Gibson Hall	Mm-hmm. Yeah.	17:30
Mary Hebert	So you'd have to climb up on roofs and things like that?	17:31
Doris Gibson Hall	Yeah, I had to do all that, getting the leaves. During that time, during the fall, they had a whole lot, we crawled down the bottom. And they'd leave a whole lot of trees, and the leaves would fall in the gutters and it would start with the gutters, so the water—And then we would wrap the shingles. If you let the leaves stay on the roof, it would wrap the shingles, because the rain and the leaves and you know right there, you had leaks.	17:33
Mary Hebert	Sounds like hard work.	17:54
Doris Gibson Hall	It was hard work. So then I did that. So they tore down Liberty Park. That's where Middletown Arts is now. You know anything about Middletown Arts?	17:55
Mary Hebert	No.	18:01
Doris Gibson Hall	But that's where it is. That's what it is now, Middletown Arts. And they put me in Young Park and I was helping putting down digging holes to put down play equipment in the play parts. I was with a group of guys. I'm the only woman there digging holes. I had a shovel and they be digging a hole, then the boss come by, they say, "Doris, jump in the hole. Jump in the hole. Get your head down here. I'd get my little shirt, I'd jump in the hole.	18:02
Doris Gibson Hall	So one day I was digging, trying to dig, and a supervisor came by and said, "Doris, they got a vacancy in the mid-rise." Right down the street there at sites right there. Right, right. You probably passed it. Said they got a vacancy in the mid-rise and, "You go down there and apply for that vacancy. He said, unless you're off right now. I went right on down there and applied for the vacancy. And I got the job as maintenance person in this mid-rise, right down the street by the post office.	18:37
Mary Hebert	Oh, I passed it.	19:08
Doris Gibson Hall	Yeah. You passed it. You passed it. I worked there for six years, I did that whole building. I did the floors, I turned units and people moved. "Oh, you cleaning." I cleaned the stores, stripped floors. I did the whole bit, plus took care of that whole building. The only thing that I did not do, if it was something major, like did electric or whatever, they sent somebody in to do it, but I did all that work. And now I see they got people helping and everything. During that time, I ain't had nobody but me.	19:08
Mary Hebert	So you worked it alone?	19:37
Doris Gibson Hall	I worked it alone. I worked there alone. And everybody tell me, when I go up there, and they said, "Doris, this building had not been as clean as you had it since you left." Everybody tell me that. So anyway, they started transferring people. So they transferred me from down here after six years, they put me in the other mid-rise on Poplar Hall Drive called Bobbitt. That's right across from the fire station. You might have seen that big building, and that's where I worked for four years.	19:38
Doris Gibson Hall	And then they made a turnaround and say they needed more men. They needed somebody to move the doors, said the red bricks are going to get too heavy for me, and they put me back in Young Park. Right off—You know where Young Park is downtown?	20:04
Mary Hebert	I'm sure I came by it.	20:20
Doris Gibson Hall	Right across. It's right there. Right across from Scope.	20:20
Mary Hebert	Okay.	20:23
Doris Gibson Hall	That project over there.	20:23
Mary Hebert	Okay. Yeah.	20:25
Doris Gibson Hall	That's Young Park.	20:26
Mary Hebert	Okay.	20:26
Doris Gibson Hall	They put me over there, put me back on the street picking up paper damned again.	20:27
Mary Hebert	After you hit—?	20:35
Doris Gibson Hall	And I'm 60 years old then. I was 61 after that. See? So that's how people do you. When you hit a certain age, instead of they trying to look out for you, people don't look out for you.	20:35
Mary Hebert	So they put you back on the street?	20:47
Doris Gibson Hall	Put me back on the street. I said, "When I turn 62, I'm leaving."	20:49
Mary Hebert	And you retired?	20:52
Doris Gibson Hall	And I retired. I was going to work until I was 65, but there, I couldn't do it. I couldn't do it.	20:53
Mary Hebert	Out in the heat? Now when—	21:02
Doris Gibson Hall	In the heat, I couldn't do it. I couldn't do it.	21:03
Mary Hebert	Is that a dangerous neighborhood, working there?	21:03
Doris Gibson Hall	Yes, honey. Shooting all around and everything. Yes, when you go in people's houses, you don't know, and then sometimes you had to have a kid and go in people's house. You never know what you going to find in those houses. So I said, "Uh-uh, I'm giving this up by the time I turn 62." They told me, they said, "Doris, you can retire the first day of the month that you 62." April was the first time I was out there, I was 62 April the 20th. This past April the 20th, I was out there.	21:05
Mary Hebert	So you just retired?	21:31
Doris Gibson Hall	Yeah, in April.	21:32
Mary Hebert	Oh. You said you lived in the Huntersville neighborhood when you were growing up, what kind of neighborhood was that like?	21:35
Doris Gibson Hall	Okay, I was born on Proescher Street, but anyway, my mother and them, they moved on to Galt Street, G-A-L-T. And there's a track running along then the other side of Lindenwood. Anyway, we had a nice little apartment. We had four rooms, it was nice, and we always had nice furniture. We always had good food, and I always had nice clothes and both of them always worked, and I was the only child. And I always had, I always had.	21:41
Doris Gibson Hall	I didn't know, to say you're poor, but you don't know you're poor, but I looked good. Everybody said that she dressed me real nice because I was her only daughter until I was 13 and a half. So I had a good life. I had a good life. I had a brand new piano, and I remember coming home and they had a temple of music. It cost enough as a piano over the bouncer of the apartment, brand new. I had told my mom I wanted a piano for Christmas. Brand new.	22:10
Mary Hebert	And you got one?	22:34
Doris Gibson Hall	I got one, and then I told her I wanted a desk, a secretary desk and the one with the glass, and the little compartments. My mother has it right now in her dining room, in her den.	22:37
Mary Hebert	So she bought one for you?	22:46
Doris Gibson Hall	Yeah, they did.	22:47
Mary Hebert	Did you take piano lessons?	22:48
Doris Gibson Hall	Yes, from Professor Patterson. During the time he was stern, honey. He was stern, he'd crack his fingers.	22:49
Mary Hebert	If you missed the note?	22:56
Doris Gibson Hall	Yeah, yeah, yeah.	22:58
Mary Hebert	Crack your [indistinct 00:22:59]?	22:58
Doris Gibson Hall	Yeah, yeah.	22:59
Mary Hebert	Was he at Norfolk State, or what was it called then?	22:59
Doris Gibson Hall	Norfolk State was called Little State then.	23:05
Mary Hebert	He was there or—?	23:09
Doris Gibson Hall	No, he used to come to the house.	23:10
Mary Hebert	Oh, okay.	23:12
Doris Gibson Hall	He's coming—	23:12
Mary Hebert	He'd go to houses all the time, right?	23:12
Doris Gibson Hall	Yeah, not all of this, just to me because nobody had pianos, because we were one of the first ones that had a telephone. And during that time, the telephone was a little on the skin and neck, you know how you hold the two pieces? And people used to come and give us a nickel to use our phones.	23:13
Mary Hebert	Was your family one of the better off families in the neighborhood?	23:29
Doris Gibson Hall	Yeah.	23:32
Mary Hebert	Was it because they only had one child? I mean, did the other families have more children than that, or was it because—?	23:34
Doris Gibson Hall	During that time it was a pretty nice neighborhood. No, nobody had a whole lot of tripped kids right then. But they had family on the corner, which got married into the halls. They had googobs of them. Yeah, there were 13 of them, I actually loved to go over there.	23:38
Mary Hebert	With all the kids?	23:50
Doris Gibson Hall	Yeah.	23:51
Mary Hebert	Did you play with them when you were growing up?	23:51
Doris Gibson Hall	Yes, I played with them. I married the oldest boy. Yeah, I played with them. They were my friends. Yep. Played with them the whole time I was growing up, from the time I was six.	23:52
Mary Hebert	Did your mother ever restrict where you could go in the neighborhood, where you could play?	24:02
Doris Gibson Hall	Yeah, I couldn't go barefoot. I never went. I couldn't go barefoot. I used to go over The Hall, we used to call it The Hall, I used to go over there and they used to run barefoot all the time. And I'd go over there and take off my shoes and run barefoot, then I'd put on my socks and shoes. Because Mom always had me these little sandals where you tie it across, these little red and little white ones and you couldn't—And one time she asked me and said, "Doris, how your socks get so dirty on the inside?" Because I be running barefoot over their house and their floor wasn't too clean, it's a lot of kids. I come back and put on my socks and she'd take it off, "How your socks get so dirty on the inside?" She never let you go barefooted. She sent me to the hairdresser every two weeks because she didn't have time to do hair because she was working.	24:05
Mary Hebert	Who did you go to?	24:52
Doris Gibson Hall	With the hairdresser?	24:54
Mary Hebert	Yeah.	24:54
Doris Gibson Hall	With the Beatrice Hair Beauty Parlor. Ms. Beatrice used to do my hair.	24:55
Mary Hebert	Were there a lot of women there?	25:03
Doris Gibson Hall	Yeah.	25:08
Mary Hebert	Were they gossiping and stuff like that?	25:08
Doris Gibson Hall	Yeah, yeah.	25:08
Mary Hebert	Who were some of the most important people in that neighborhood? Who were the leading families or people that you looked up to?	25:15
Doris Gibson Hall	Who did we have in my neighborhood? We had lawyer Harlem, he lived down the street. And who else did we have? We had the Andersons. Now, the Andersons lived down the street, now they're podiatrists. The Andersons, Dr. Anderson and his—I think it's two of them, podiatrists now. And Dr. Lawyer Harlem, he lived on that street and Connie Banks, she taught at—But she was older, a little older than me, they were nice. It was just a nice—	25:20
Mary Hebert	It was a nice neighborhood?	25:49
Doris Gibson Hall	Yeah, it was just a nice neighborhood.	25:49
Mary Hebert	Where did y'all go shopping for groceries and things like that?	25:56
Doris Gibson Hall	Okay. We had the Colonial stores, went to the Colonial store and then had Pender's Market.	25:59
Mary Hebert	Were there any Black-owned grocery stores that you used in Richmond?	26:10
Doris Gibson Hall	We had a little shop that was called Bud Ash, it was down in the chute, you'd leave from out back and you'd go to the little street here, they had a little shop right down there. We used to call it down in The Bottom. And the guys used to hang out there, guys and then doctors and lawyers and dentists and everything. Dr. Kendrick, he used to hang down there. Dr. Kendrick, he's a dentist now.	26:13
Mary Hebert	Were they just in the [indistinct 00:26:35]?	26:34
Doris Gibson Hall	And the Proctors, yeah, and the Proctors. Yeah. Sit on the boxes because they'd sell fish and sodas over there. It was something like a convenience store, and bologna, cheese, and stuff like that. And fish, fresh fish.	26:35
Mary Hebert	And fish?	26:47
Doris Gibson Hall	Mm-hmm.	26:48
Mary Hebert	And they'd sit around and talk about—?	26:50
Doris Gibson Hall	Yeah, yeah. Play cards. No gambling, just playing for the game of cards.	26:51
Mary Hebert	What was The Bottoms again?	26:56
Doris Gibson Hall	It was just a meeting of four streets.	26:59
Mary Hebert	Okay.	27:01
Doris Gibson Hall	It was A Avenue, Fremont Street, Sutton Street, then you walked through to Dungee Street now Lexington Street, Bruce Street. It was just a meeting of streets.	27:02
Mary Hebert	It says where the streets crossed, they called it The Bottom.	27:15
Doris Gibson Hall	Yeah, it was The Bottom. This was going to be called that, they'd go down The Bottom to Bud Ash store. Yeah, that's what we called it.	27:17
Mary Hebert	Okay, and were there any bad neighborhoods that you weren't allowed to go into?	27:24
Doris Gibson Hall	Well, when I was growing up, we ain't never come to Berkley. (laughs) I ain't never come over here to Berkley. But uh-uh (negative), there weren't real bad neighborhoods when I was coming up, nothing that we had to shun, because—	27:29
Mary Hebert	Not even where the sailors would hang out in the—?	27:50
Doris Gibson Hall	No, but see I didn't live there. First time when I was growing up, I was married early, so I didn't hang out—	27:56
Mary Hebert	Right.	28:00
Doris Gibson Hall	And my dad and my mama used to always say, "Don't go with no sailors, because they got a woman in every port." One of those things. So you didn't bother. Better not to bring home no sailor. I didn't even bother going with no sailors.	28:00
Mary Hebert	And she didn't mind when you married your second husband, who was in the army?	28:15
Doris Gibson Hall	He was in the army. She didn't mind. She wasn't too thrilled, but I had to do what I had to do because I had two children.	28:18
Mary Hebert	And he was a local person too.	28:28
Doris Gibson Hall	Yeah, and he was in the army. Then I got married and he would help me with the kids. And after you get to a certain age, you have children and your mama and daddy be working all these years, you just don't want to be on them all the time.	28:29
Mary Hebert	Right.	28:37
Doris Gibson Hall	So mostly I got married because I wanted to. I didn't want mama and them to have all that problem. And I needed to get out because by that time I had two children.	28:38
Mary Hebert	Right, and so you needed—?	28:47
Doris Gibson Hall	Yeah, and I needed to be out. I needed to go.	28:50
Mary Hebert	But she warned you about those Navy men?	28:53
Doris Gibson Hall	Yeah, yeah.	28:54
Mary Hebert	What would you do for fun? I know you had children, but would you go out to ice cream shops and other stores?	28:57
Doris Gibson Hall	Yeah. Okay, by the time I got grown, we were living in Parks and whatever, you had house parties. You had house parties. Cooked fried chicken, fried some fish and invite everybody, you sell the food, everybody was poor, because I was raising my kids. You'd have a house party and you have sodas. You may have had to sell and had your little beer in the closet and sometimes they had little drinks and—	29:06
Mary Hebert	Music?	29:32
Doris Gibson Hall	Music, yeah. Had your music, and it was nice. You couldn't even do that now, how many people be killing each other? You can't even think about it. They used to have a pot in the beginning. I was working, I would still work my stock. My mama, she would come home and she got her—I said, "Mama, try to have a little of the pot." I wanted to start laying the kids' things away because I ate. I wanted to start laying the kids' things away, so I said I needed to, "I'm going to have a party. Try to have a party." She would make my cornbread for me and my potato salad, and I would come home at night and during that time you could buy chicken real cheap. And I'd buy about 10 chickens, cut them up, salt them down, and when I'd get off on work, I'd start frying chicken. I'd fry chicken all night long. I'd fry chicken all night long.	29:33
Mary Hebert	And when would the parties start, the next evening?	30:23
Doris Gibson Hall	No, the party was when I got home, that's when I started frying. Mama would come over there and she would help me fix the plates and everything. I had pig feet, chicken and fish. I remember one time, I used to sell breakfast in the morning. I'd be up all night long and I'd be selling, I'd be frying fish for the children, and the folks wanted to come in there and buy my fish off my children. I said, "You better go now, that fish for my kids. I'm not selling anything on Sundays." I didn't sell anything on Sundays.	30:23
Mary Hebert	So you're a really good cook and they liked it?	30:52
Doris Gibson Hall	Yeah, yeah. You right. Right.	30:52
Mary Hebert	Who would go to the parties, just people in your neighborhoods?	30:52
Doris Gibson Hall	Neighborhoods, and if somebody knew—Okay, if my neighbor had friends, she had company, she would bring them over to my house and they would buy. "Doris is having a party" so you'd be, "Come on." Her group would come over to my house and we'd have a party and they'd help me. You'd sell little dinners for $2, $2.50, $3 to $3.50.	30:52
Mary Hebert	And this was in the 50s and 60s?	31:10
Doris Gibson Hall	Yeah. 50s, 60s and 70s.	31:12
Mary Hebert	But you couldn't do that today?	31:16
Doris Gibson Hall	No, no. No, you couldn't. Because talking about, it'd be sending the cops on you for selling liquor and all that stuff. You couldn't do that now. But these? We were just—And see, it's a way to do things. It's a way to do things quietly. And it's your clientele, it's who you have coming into your house. Somebody wanted to come in because I always kept a clean house. I had good kids. Well, our kids always kept a clean house. And they'd come and they knew how to respect my house. They knew I had a whole lot of stuff in my house. So they'd like to come to my house.	31:17
Mary Hebert	And they never trashed your house?	31:45
Doris Gibson Hall	No, no, no, no. No.	31:46
Mary Hebert	Was there dancing and stuff like that?	31:48
Doris Gibson Hall	Yeah. Yeah, and I could buy linoleums and they'd dance, and that's when I'd buy one next week and put it there, it'd be all scrubbed up. Yep.	31:50
Mary Hebert	What kind of music would you listen to?	31:59
Doris Gibson Hall	Rock and roll and James Brown and just mostly that kind, mostly that type of music. And during Christmas, we loved Nat King Cole, and The Temptations' Christmas and all that.	32:01
Mary Hebert	Would you have them almost every weekend, or was it just once in a while?	32:18
Doris Gibson Hall	I used to have a party maybe once every three months. Once every three months.	32:22
Mary Hebert	Did you raise a lot of money?	32:27
Doris Gibson Hall	Ah, yeah. The most I've raised was about $400.	32:29
Mary Hebert	Oh, that's good for just a party for the night.	32:36
Doris Gibson Hall	Yeah, but it's two nights. Okay.	32:38
Mary Hebert	Two nights?	32:40
Doris Gibson Hall	You start Friday night and you'd sell Friday night and Saturday night.	32:41
Mary Hebert	Oh, okay. And would you sell them breakfast on Saturday morning? Is that—?	32:43
Doris Gibson Hall	If they come early, yeah.	32:47
Mary Hebert	Would you go to the movies and stuff like that too?	32:53
Doris Gibson Hall	Yeah. Yeah, we'd go to—	32:55
Mary Hebert	You'd go to, you said the Regal Theater and—?	32:56
Doris Gibson Hall	Yeah. Yeah.	32:57
Mary Hebert	Booker T. Theater?	32:57
Doris Gibson Hall	Yeah, right.	32:58
Mary Hebert	Would you ever go to the Booker T. Pharmacy?	33:00
Doris Gibson Hall	Yeah. Yeah, but then they had a little one in the back. You would go back there and it was nice back then in the back.	33:03
Mary Hebert	They had music and—?	33:11
Doris Gibson Hall	Yeah.	33:12
Mary Hebert	I interviewed Mrs. Owens, her husband owned a farm.	33:13
Doris Gibson Hall	Okay, yeah.	33:17
Mary Hebert	Tell me about Owens.	33:17
Doris Gibson Hall	Yeah, we had a nice time back then. They had Ben's Grill, they built Ben's Grill.	33:20
Mary Hebert	Ben's Grill?	33:24
Doris Gibson Hall	I remember when I first—Me and my girlfriend Barbara, she's dead now, and we went to the movie and they had just built Ben's Grill, so I said, "Barbara, come in. Let's go in here." I think—were we 18? I was 17 and she was 18, I said, "Come on, go in here, Barbara. We going to get us a beer." So we go, and we go prancing up there and go sitting on the bar stool, and I said, "We'd like a beer, please." The guy next to me said, "Doris? That you, Doris? Get on out of here. Get on out. She ain't but 17, don't sell her nothing. Her and my sister, we go to school together, don't sell them nothing. Get on, go home. You and Barbara go home. Go home."	33:26
Mary Hebert	So you got busted?	34:09
Doris Gibson Hall	Busted. We were so embarrassed.	34:09
Mary Hebert	So the grills were like little bars?	34:12
Doris Gibson Hall	Yeah.	34:13
Mary Hebert	Okay. Did they serve food and stuff?	34:13
Doris Gibson Hall	Yeah, they served food.	34:18
Mary Hebert	Did you go back when you were 18?	34:19
Doris Gibson Hall	Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Then they had Post 5. They had Post 5, and doggone it, what's Lucia's Place? Can't think of that place's name's family right now. I can't think of it right now. But they were very nice places.	34:21
Mary Hebert	And these were all on Church Street?	34:45
Doris Gibson Hall	Yeah, and the Eureka was up there too then, the Eureka before it burned down. It used to be two floors. And honey, if you were up there? Honey, they'd be jamming up there.	34:45
Mary Hebert	Live bands?	34:57
Doris Gibson Hall	Yeah.	34:58
Mary Hebert	Things like that?	34:59
Doris Gibson Hall	Yeah, sometimes there was live bands. They were nice.	34:59
Mary Hebert	Would some of the Black men who were in the Navy come into those places?	35:03
Doris Gibson Hall	Yeah.	35:06
Mary Hebert	So they wouldn't hang out on the Main Street side?	35:07
Doris Gibson Hall	No, they would hang out. Most of them were on the Church Street side, and they had Queens. Now, my mom would never allow me to go into Queens, that's where really the sailors hung out. Queens was right on the corner of Brown there and Church Street. And that was really where the sailors hung out.	35:09
Mary Hebert	Black sailors?	35:28
Doris Gibson Hall	Mm-hmm.	35:29
Mary Hebert	It was rough there?	35:31
Doris Gibson Hall	Sort of.	35:32
Mary Hebert	Were there tattoo parlors in places like that on Church Street? Do you remember?	35:36
Doris Gibson Hall	Most of the tattoo parlors were over there on Main.	35:39
Mary Hebert	On Main Street?	35:39
Doris Gibson Hall	Yeah.	35:39
Mary Hebert	The White sailors?	35:41
Doris Gibson Hall	Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right.	35:42
Mary Hebert	Did you join any clubs or things like that as you became an adult? I mean, did you belong to any organizations?	35:50
Doris Gibson Hall	I belonged to them. I belonged to the Elks and the Daughters of Norfolk. I belonged to the Daughters of Norfolk, I belonged to the Elks.	35:56
Mary Hebert	Tell me about Eureka.	36:07
Doris Gibson Hall	Well, I joined in Eureka I think after I was—I've been in there about 18, almost 20 years, and it's a nice organization. It's been nice, but—	36:09
Mary Hebert	Is it a social or service? I don't know much about it.	36:18
Doris Gibson Hall	It's social and we give scholarships. We give scholarships every year toward the people, different people. Students and whatever. We always give scholarships.	36:20
Mary Hebert	Who belongs? I'm not asking people, but what kind of people belong? Is it just anyone from the community, or do you have to be invited?	36:34
Doris Gibson Hall	You have to be invited to join. You have to know somebody in the lodge, and you have to be interviewed and you have to go in and be interviewed and people have to come into your home. We just don't take anybody. And you have to be—No, but that's the Daughters. In the Daughters of Norfolk, you have to be born in Norfolk, but I don't think that's true with neither.	36:38
Mary Hebert	And is the Daughters of Norfolk a service organization too?	37:02
Doris Gibson Hall	Yeah, we give scholarships too, and we recognize prominent people in the community.	37:06
Mary Hebert	Is it an all-Black organization?	37:15
Doris Gibson Hall	The Daughters of Norfolk?	37:28
Mary Hebert	Yeah, or is it—?	37:28
Doris Gibson Hall	Yeah, this is a Black—	37:28
Mary Hebert	And so with Eureka, y'all have parties and things like that too? I mean, it's the social aspect.	37:29
Doris Gibson Hall	Yeah, right. Sometimes they have live bands and they have dinners sometimes. On Fridays, they have dinners and—	37:33
Mary Hebert	Did you ever belong to the NAACP or any organizations?	37:41
Doris Gibson Hall	Mm-hmm. I belong there. I got to pay my dues, my churchman said, "Doris, you ain't going to pay your dues." I paid my dues. I said, "Y'all wasting the money. Somebody is stealing the money. You going to have me do—" I said, "Somebody stealing the money. Y'all not doing nothing with the money."	37:45
Mary Hebert	How long have you—?	37:57
Doris Gibson Hall	I said—Huh?	37:57
Mary Hebert	How long have you been a member?	37:57
Doris Gibson Hall	I've been a member about five years. I haven't been a member long.	37:58
Mary Hebert	You mentioned church. What church do you belong to?	38:05
Doris Gibson Hall	I belong to Shiloh Baptist. Reverend John H. Foster.	38:07
Mary Hebert	Have you always belonged to that church?	38:11
Doris Gibson Hall	Always. All my life.	38:13
Mary Hebert	You grew up going there?	38:14
Doris Gibson Hall	I grew up going there. I was sending my children there when I couldn't go because I didn't have nothing to wear. I would send them because my mama would always come by and pick them up in the car, in her car.	38:15
Mary Hebert	So they always had clothes to wear and things like that, right?	38:24
Doris Gibson Hall	Always. See, because my mother always helped me with my kids, because my husband, he turned on me out of nowhere. He left me when my kids were—My oldest son was 11, and my baby was 12 months.	38:28
Mary Hebert	And you were left as a single mother with all of those children?	38:42
Doris Gibson Hall	Eight children in Roberts Park. He left me, we didn't pay the rent or none of that. So my mother had to come off her job and left me her whole check.	38:44
Mary Hebert	For the kids?	38:54
Doris Gibson Hall	For the kids. For the kids. And she's 82 next month, and I love her to death. My daddy just died in '92 and I just had her over here yesterday. I call them mini visits. I call her, get her and keep her about four or five hours and we'd be eating lunch, and she just like to walk behind there and look at me because I'm the only girl. My brother had brought her in, you know how brothers are.	38:55
Mary Hebert	It's not like daughters.	39:18
Doris Gibson Hall	No, no, no. Uh-uh.	39:18
Mary Hebert	And so your mother always helped you?	39:21
Doris Gibson Hall	Always.	39:23
Mary Hebert	Is she living near you now?	39:24
Doris Gibson Hall	She lives in Coronado over there, right off Widgeon Road.	39:25
Mary Hebert	Okay.	39:27
Doris Gibson Hall	She has a big house over there, but I had to move my daughter in with her because she couldn't stay alone after Daddy died. After you were married 60 years, you lose your husband, it's rough, and he was such a good provider. All my daughters finished college. My daddy had said, "Girls should finish college," and she said, "Sons, all my sons went in the army. At one time, I had four sons and two daughters in the service."	39:28
Mary Hebert	So he didn't object to your daughters going into the service though?	39:58
Doris Gibson Hall	No, no. After my daughter, but my daughters didn't go into the service after that. One daughter, they didn't go into the service after they got out the college, because my daughter, Nance, she'll be home tomorrow, she's a lieutenant colonel.	40:01
Mary Hebert	Wonderful.	40:11
Doris Gibson Hall	Yeah, and she bought my car. She buy my car, she helped me with my car, she helped me with everything.	40:12
Mary Hebert	So, your father helped you send all your daughters to college?	40:17
Doris Gibson Hall	Yeah, then they had a scholarship. They were smart girls. They're smart girls. And I have one daughter, she's a lieutenant colonel. I have a daughter that's a civil engineer, she works for the state near in Norfolk. I have a daughter that works at Portsmouth Naval. She teaches nursing to the crewmen that come off to teach them how to work the floor. My baby girl, she teaches daycare for the Start program.	40:19
Mary Hebert	Was that important to you that your kids get to go to college?	40:44
Doris Gibson Hall	Oh, yeah. Yeah. Right. Yeah. It was very important, and I never had any problem with my kids, my boys going to school.	40:47
Mary Hebert	They always went?	40:55
Doris Gibson Hall	Always went, always went. When they came out of school, everybody joined the service.	40:55
Mary Hebert	Did any of them ever have to fight in a war or—?	41:01
Doris Gibson Hall	No. Nobody had to really do actually any fighting.	41:04
Mary Hebert	After, were there Black doctors you could bring your children to? Were the hospital segregated and that kind of thing?	41:11
Doris Gibson Hall	Most of the time, for shots, I carried them over to the Norfolk community because it was quicker. And then after when Rita was born, my baby girl, I went to Norfolk General here because I didn't have—My mother always, she had this policy, my mother paid for all my kids. She had this policy, and I mean years ago, because she used to write insurance for North Carolina Mutual, that was the Black insurance company.	41:18
Mary Hebert	Right.	41:43
Doris Gibson Hall	She used to write insurance for them part-time, and she had me this policy, she paid for every one of my babies. And this last baby, they wouldn't pay for it, so I went to the clinic. That's when I had her, but I had all seven children and three miscarriages at Norfolk Community and Norfolk General, that's where I had Rita.	41:44
Mary Hebert	So you didn't have to use a midwife or anything like that?	42:07
Doris Gibson Hall	No, and all my kids in one hospital.	42:10
Mary Hebert	Did you ever go to the beach? Would y'all go to the beach? Was that something—?	42:18
Doris Gibson Hall	Yeah, honey. We used to go to City Breeze and Ocean Breeze, little Rich and everybody used to meet there, Ocean Breeze and City Beach, Years ago when I was growing up. And my momma used to make hot roads, had a big basket of hot roads and fried chicken, honey and have a good time calling everybody down the beach. It was so nice, yeah.	42:21
Mary Hebert	Did you go to Sunday school or was it with the church?	42:37
Doris Gibson Hall	Yeah, we went Sunday, used to go with the church too. Yeah, at the church, excuse me. Yeah.	42:40
Mary Hebert	How?	42:44
Doris Gibson Hall	Hmm?	42:44
Mary Hebert	Go on.	42:44
Doris Gibson Hall	Because we didn't have cars. My dad didn't get a car till I was—I think he got a truck first and then he got in there. I'll never forget Charlie Faulk. Charlie Faulk get anybody a car then, and that's when we first got our car from Charlie Faulk, he was on 21st Street.	42:46
Mary Hebert	How would you dress when you'd go to the beach? Would you dress up?	43:04
Doris Gibson Hall	No, honey. You had on your bathing suits and all your stuff.	43:06
Mary Hebert	Bathing suits?	43:08
Doris Gibson Hall	Yeah.	43:09
Mary Hebert	Okay. Well, like this picture in here, they're all dressed up in suits and stuff at the beach, so I was just wondering if that was—?	43:09
Doris Gibson Hall	No, this is before my time.	43:16
Mary Hebert	Okay.	43:20
Doris Gibson Hall	This is 1950, see? This was in 1950. And in 1950, I was a teenager, because I had my kids and my baby before when I was 16, so we didn't go to the beach like this.	43:21
Mary Hebert	Yeah, y'all went in bathing suits and—?	43:32
Doris Gibson Hall	Yeah. Yeah, I went in them, baby. It was in them bathing suits, because before my husband left, we used to go crabbing. Go crabbing and carry the kids to the beach crabbing, but he had a car then, my husband did.	43:34
Mary Hebert	So, would y'all boil the crabs at the beach or would you bring them home with you?	43:45
Doris Gibson Hall	No, we bring them home and cook the crab. Yeah.	43:47
Mary Hebert	It's close enough to do that.	43:47
Doris Gibson Hall	Yeah.	43:47
Mary Hebert	Did you ever go on long trips, vacations, things like that?	43:54
Doris Gibson Hall	Well, we went, my grandfather. My father wasn't married to his mother, but he was a porter on there and on the train, and we always rode the trains because he always gave us free passes. So me and Mama used to go back and forth to Raleigh, North Carolina. We used to go back and forth to New York and New Jersey because my grandmother used to work in this family in New Jersey, and on the water they had a summer home, and we would go there in summers.	43:57
Mary Hebert	Oh, that must have been fun.	44:30
Doris Gibson Hall	Yeah, and my grandma used send me these pretty coats and stuff from New York and New Jersey.	44:31
Mary Hebert	Was that your mother's mother or—?	44:37
Doris Gibson Hall	My Daddy's mother.	44:37
Mary Hebert	Your father's mother?	44:38
Doris Gibson Hall	Mm-hmm.	44:38
Mary Hebert	I need to turn it off.	44:40

Mary Hebert	A Black-only car on the train when you were growing up?	0:00
Doris Gibson Hall	Yeah. Yeah, right. Right. Yeah.	0:05
Mary Hebert	So, your grandfather, was he a Pullman, your grandfather?	0:06
Doris Gibson Hall	Mm-hmm. He was a porter. A Pullman porter.	0:08
Mary Hebert	Was your father born up north or did your grandmother go up there after?	0:14
Doris Gibson Hall	My daddy was born up north, but she came down here. He was born there, she came right back down here.	0:18
Mary Hebert	And she lived here for a while and he grew up here?	0:26
Doris Gibson Hall	Yeah. Yeah, he grew up here, yeah. She lived on Washington Avenue.	0:29
Mary Hebert	She was a domestic?	0:36
Doris Gibson Hall	Yeah, but she always worked. After he got older, she worked and she stayed on a lot after he got grown.	0:37
Mary Hebert	Did she ever tell you what it was like when she was growing up? What life was like for her when she was—	0:48
Doris Gibson Hall	She was a lot of kids in her family, and they were born over there in Matthews County, Virginia. That's where they came from, Matthews County, Virginia. They had a lot of land and stuff.	0:54
Mary Hebert	Did she tell you why she went north?	1:05
Doris Gibson Hall	Money, money.	1:08
Mary Hebert	Money?	1:08
Doris Gibson Hall	Yeah, better. She was always digging, because when she smoked cigarettes, she used a holder.	1:09
Mary Hebert	She did?	1:16
Doris Gibson Hall	Mm-hmm. And she'd drink her wine out of a long stem, honey. Yes, she was something.	1:17
Mary Hebert	So, it must have been really nice for you to grow up with her.	1:22
Doris Gibson Hall	Yeah, it was. And then, she had a house on here. After she got older, she was here and she had a house in Washington Avenue right across from Dr. James. She was always a stickler for your skin. She always had me doing that Ponds and everything. She'd, "Girl, clean your skin." I do it right today. The girl asked me, said, "Doris, you got nice skin." Because I went to get some makeup, a little foundation, and the lady said, "I can tell you take care of your skin." I said, "Because I don't wear a whole lot of makeup. I can't wear makeup, put on makeup." She said, "You take care." I said, "Honey, it was instilled in me by my grandmama. She was a stickler for cleanliness on your face." Honey, she always had on her dresser was creams and perfumes and all that stuff. You'd go in and mess with her stuff.	1:25
Mary Hebert	Your father was her only child?	2:14
Doris Gibson Hall	She had another son, a brother. One brother.	2:15
Mary Hebert	What about your mother's parents? Did you ever see them?	2:18
Doris Gibson Hall	My mother was raised by her grandmother. Her mother died and she was two. Her grandmother worked at a Sunlight Laundry and was over on Cherry Street, and she raised my mother.	2:20
Mary Hebert	Did you know her?	2:32
Doris Gibson Hall	Oh, yes, Grandma Jenny. Her name was Grandma Jenny.	2:33
Mary Hebert	Would she ever tell you what it was like when she was growing up?	2:37
Doris Gibson Hall	No. No, because she was older. She was older then, because she was my mama's grandmother. I remember Grandma Jenny, I used to go to the laundry. She used to live on Chapel Street. During that time, it was a Jewish store in the corner and you could go stand in the back, charge thing on the book. I was the only little Black gal had her book with a candy, a Girl Scout that belonged to Troop 44. This troop originated out of Grace Episcopal Church. Grace Episcopal used to be on Nicholson Street years ago. That's where the troop originated from. Anyway, we come from Scout meeting and I'd go by there and buy everybody candy because I had the book. She said I could usually get 50 cent. I'd get 50 cent. That was a lot of money, honey, selling candy in those days.	2:42
Mary Hebert	You must have had enough for the whole troop.	3:24
Doris Gibson Hall	It was nice. It was nice. She always wore these white slippers because she was recognized in her slippers because it's white and had stars. She always kept her money around her money bag around her—And all her little dollar bills, her dollar bills are always all folded up. But she always had money. When I needed a pair shoes, Mama said if her and daddy would start, "Grandma, mama, I sure need some shoes." [indistinct 00:03:55]. And she'd go peel off them dollars and I'd go to Hofheimers.	3:27
Mary Hebert	Get a pair of shoes.	3:58
Doris Gibson Hall	Get a pair of shoes.	3:58
Mary Hebert	What were the Girl Scouts like?	4:00
Doris Gibson Hall	Nice. Yeah. We used to make cookies and we'd meet at different people's houses. Mama said buy the uniform. I had the uniforms, and you outgrew your uniform, you had to buy another uniform. It was very nice. Clarice was in the Scout troop.	4:01
Mary Hebert	She was?	4:18
Doris Gibson Hall	She was a Scout. Yeah.	4:18
Mary Hebert	Oh, okay. Is that how you met her?	4:19
Doris Gibson Hall	Clarice and I, we met in John T. West Elementary School.	4:22
Mary Hebert	Oh, okay. So, y'all have known each other since grade school.	4:26
Doris Gibson Hall	Yeah. Yeah. And she was always tall.	4:27
Mary Hebert	She is.	4:31
Doris Gibson Hall	She was always tall. She was always taller than everybody else. She was always taller.	4:31
Mary Hebert	I met her aunt last Friday and she is. She's very, very tall.	4:36
Doris Gibson Hall	Oh, honey, she was always taller and always had a red sandy hat. We used to go in Liberty Park. She used to live in Liberty Park when we were growing up. I used to walk over to her house, and she had her big sisters. Her sisters were almost grown when she was born, so all her sisters were grown when we were children. Nine and 10 like that.	4:41
Mary Hebert	And so, you'd go out to Liberty Park and play with her?	5:05
Doris Gibson Hall	Yeah, and she would come walk over there to my house, yeah. Yeah.	5:07
Mary Hebert	Did you have to walk to school when you were going to Johnson G. West?	5:10
Doris Gibson Hall	Yeah. And walk to Booker T., too.	5:12
Mary Hebert	Booker T.? How far was the walk to Booker T.?	5:14
Doris Gibson Hall	We walked right on down the track and keep on going around, and then turn on Hanson Avenue and be right there on Princess Anne Road.	5:15
Mary Hebert	So, Booker T. was on Princess Anne?	5:22
Doris Gibson Hall	Mm-hmm.	5:24
Mary Hebert	Do you remember what the books were like and things like that? Were they used books? Torn books?	5:27
Doris Gibson Hall	Now, our books weren't torn. They were used but they weren't torn. Sometimes we had new books then. The new books went to the people that typically had books. The teachers would give you a new book and she'd say, "You take care of your books and you write your name and your note. Just don't write on the book." We had book covers. She'd give the books to the ones that she knew going to take care of the books.	5:33
Mary Hebert	Were those her favorite students?	5:52
Doris Gibson Hall	Yeah, the ones that she knew they were going to take care of them. Won't lose them, you know? Yeah.	5:54
Mary Hebert	They're the ones that got the good books.	5:59
Doris Gibson Hall	Good books, yeah.	6:01
Mary Hebert	Did Booker T. have a library?	6:03
Doris Gibson Hall	Mm-hmm. Yeah.	6:05
Mary Hebert	Did you have to walk past any White schools going to Booker T.?	6:08
Doris Gibson Hall	No. No. No, no.	6:11
Mary Hebert	John T. West, either?	6:12
Doris Gibson Hall	No, no. No Whites.	6:13
Mary Hebert	Were there Jewish families living in your neighborhood or near your neighborhood?	6:17
Doris Gibson Hall	Only Jewish families were living there were that were hired raffles. They lived in the back of the store, but they were my momma's age and stuff. There were not no small Jewish children like that.	6:21
Mary Hebert	So they weren't young?	6:35
Doris Gibson Hall	No.	6:41
Mary Hebert	Did your mother have a garden or a farm?	6:41
Doris Gibson Hall	No, because we lived in an apartment. No, not until she moved over here in Coronado and she had the garden. You know, garden, a bed of flowers. But when we were living in an apartment, she didn't. For one thing, Mama didn't have time.	6:42
Mary Hebert	She was always working?	7:00
Doris Gibson Hall	She was always working.	7:00
Mary Hebert	Did you ever feel bad about her having to go to work while you were young?	7:03
Doris Gibson Hall	Sometimes you get lonesome because I'd go, that's why I'd play with the Halls all the time. I always had always had a key around my neck. I had always come home and I was mostly alone.	7:07
Mary Hebert	Would she leave food for you?	7:19
Doris Gibson Hall	Oh, yes. Yeah, I always had plenty of food. I had food. I'd call people, I'd get the girls come in and I'd be cooking them Mama's food, feeding them, letting them come in. Honey, there was so many of them there and they didn't have nice clothes like I did. I would let them come and put on my clothes and go to school, then they come and change and put on their old stuff and wear it back home. Mama said, "Doris, what has happened to your white—" See, I had this pretty white dress and I let Jerry wear it, my girlfriend. Said, "Doris, what happened to your dress?" I said, "I let Jerry wear it." When it came back, it looked like it had been washed it scrub water. Oh, she gave me a spanking. But that's when you're young. And children, you know how kids are.	7:21
Mary Hebert	Yeah, and friends.	8:06
Doris Gibson Hall	Mama said, "You always bring in strays." But that's the way I was. I was always giving somebody something. Giving them socks and whatever.	8:07
Mary Hebert	Did you have toys, dolls and things like that?	8:19
Doris Gibson Hall	Oh yeah, I had plenty. A bicycle every year.	8:24
Mary Hebert	And the Halls didn't have that kind of stuff?	8:25
Doris Gibson Hall	No, no, no, no, no.	8:26
Mary Hebert	Did she ever try to stop you from playing with them, your mother?	8:29
Doris Gibson Hall	No. No, no.	8:31
Mary Hebert	While you were growing up, did you ever feel like you were treated like a second class citizen because of a system of segregation that existed?	8:37
Doris Gibson Hall	Sometimes, but see, during that time, we were so used to riding in the back of the bus. People just treated you—You know how people would treat you different. They would treat you different. You just didn't bother. You knew where you were going. You knew where you were supposed to go, so you just went. You knew where you were supposed to go and you just went. You didn't make waves because that's where we were raised. You just didn't make waves. You'd just go on and enjoy yourself and let them go on and enjoy themself. Yeah. Not the segreg—	8:44
Mary Hebert	So, it didn't intrude upon your life that much?	9:19
Doris Gibson Hall	No, no. Not mine.	9:22
Mary Hebert	You just lived your life and it was out there?	9:26
Doris Gibson Hall	Yeah. Yeah. Right.	9:28
Mary Hebert	When you rode a bus, you kind of—	9:29
Doris Gibson Hall	Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.	9:32
Mary Hebert	Were there other things in Norfolk like signs, White only, Colored only, on restrooms and things like that?	9:33
Doris Gibson Hall	Before integration, yeah. Yeah.	9:39
Mary Hebert	Do you remember how things were integrated here? Was there any trouble with integration here with schools or with—	9:45
Doris Gibson Hall	Not really. It wasn't bad integrating here. Because my kids, they first started integrating when they went to Norville. That's when they first started Black and White went together. Schooling Black and White together.	9:53
Mary Hebert	There weren't any fights or any troubles?	10:07
Doris Gibson Hall	No.	10:07
Mary Hebert	Your kids were in school in the 60s and 70s?	10:14
Doris Gibson Hall	Okay, now my oldest son is 45 now. He was in school in the, yeah, in the 70s. Yeah.	10:17
Mary Hebert	And so, your youngest ones all went through integrated schools?	10:29
Doris Gibson Hall	Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, the youngest is 34 years. She was 34 the other day.	10:31
Mary Hebert	Right. Did you ever hear about any Black national figures when you were growing up, like Booker T. Washington?	10:42
Doris Gibson Hall	Oh, yeah. We had to study them. Mahalia Jackson, and the peanut man.	10:47
Mary Hebert	George Washington Carver?	10:52
Doris Gibson Hall	Yeah, Carver, and all those. Yeah. You had to study Negro history. You had to study that before you got out of high school.	10:53
Mary Hebert	So, did you have a course in it or just—	11:00
Doris Gibson Hall	Yeah, we had a course. You always had to study that before you came out of high school.	11:01
Mary Hebert	When you were growing up, would y'all listen to the radio and did you have a television?	11:10
Doris Gibson Hall	Yeah. We were the first one on our block having a television.	11:13
Mary Hebert	Would people come over to watch television?	11:17
Doris Gibson Hall	Yeah, right. And I had a radio and I had a phonograph. My daddy brought me a phonograph. I'd have to trade records and get old records.	11:19
Mary Hebert	Was it '75?	11:28
Doris Gibson Hall	Yeah, yeah. Bigger, and I had those. Sure did. I was a blessed child for the most—I didn't want for anything and I had nice clothes. I was just a blessed child. I took dancing lessons and Mama was going to hop on to buy those toe shoes, and taking ballet and going to charm classes and stuff like that.	11:31
Mary Hebert	Recitals?	11:56
Doris Gibson Hall	Recitals, yeah.	11:57
Mary Hebert	So, you went to charm school?	11:58
Doris Gibson Hall	Yeah, and dancing classes. When they had the Booker T. Theater, used to have a talent night. We had a group that was from my elementary school. We did a petal dance and everybody was different color flowers, and I was pink.	11:59
Mary Hebert	Oh, that must have been fun.	12:18
Doris Gibson Hall	Yeah. My mother was there. Honey, you ought to have thought she thought I was the cutest little Black thing in the world! (Hebert laughs)	12:19
Doris Gibson Hall	Then after then, fashion shows. Norfolk Community Ladies used to have this club and some kind of sorority. They used to have a fashion show to raise money to give scholarships, and I was always in those. I remember one year I had a black velvet—Mama had had this coat made. A lady named Ms. Gay made it. Ms. Gay or Ms. Gray, one. It was black velvet with the white collar and a white cuffs. I had a white Scotty and black patent leather shoes and white socks. Girl, you couldn't told me nothing. I was on the stage and somebody said, "Who that? That little Black girl thinks she's so cute." And Mama was sitting behind her. She said, "That's my little Black gal." (laughs)	12:23
Doris Gibson Hall	Yeah, so Mama was real proud of me. If I didn't do what she wanted me, she used to say, "Doris, I declare." She said, "You didn't do it you would see, but I'm just so glad you had these children." So I said, "Mama, everything may not work out the way you want it to work out." But it's a blessing, girl, because now my kids help me with her. Ain't no way in the world I could do that by myself, you know?	13:14
Mary Hebert	Right.	13:37
Doris Gibson Hall	I was working and I was always going to her house every day and checking her out when Daddy was sick, and carrying them to the doctor. Then my daughters, they help me. They carry her to the doctor from me, and my oldest daughter just brought her home from a weekend with her. So, sometimes everything works out for good.	13:37
Mary Hebert	Anyhow, it's not like you'd planned it.	13:55
Doris Gibson Hall	No, it's not like she planned.	13:56
Mary Hebert	Like she planned it.	13:58
Doris Gibson Hall	Everybody said, "Well, Doris, where you teaching?" Because everybody just assumed that I would be a teacher and that's what I was going to be.	14:00
Mary Hebert	That's what she wanted you to be?	14:08
Doris Gibson Hall	That's what she wanted me to be, because I was going to Shaw University. It was a religious school. That's where I was going.	14:08
Mary Hebert	Did those women in the Norfolk Community Ladies say that about you because your skin's dark? Or was it darker than it is now?	14:17
Doris Gibson Hall	You know, Black people, they were Black people. You know how Black people always call people Black.	14:24
Mary Hebert	So, it wasn't because your skin was darker than theirs?	14:28
Doris Gibson Hall	No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. It was just a thing they said.	14:29
Mary Hebert	It was just a thing they say. Okay.	14:32
Doris Gibson Hall	Yeah, right.	14:33
Mary Hebert	I was just wondering if they were—	14:34
Doris Gibson Hall	No, no, no. It was just how Black people talk. Black people call people Black anyway. (laughs)	14:35
Mary Hebert	Okay. Well, those are about all my questions. Is there anything you want to add that I haven't asked you about that you want to tell me?	14:43
Doris Gibson Hall	No, but on the whole, Norfolk was fine. Life is what you make it. You have to go. If you see things going to get out of hand, if you see that you can't do anything about it, you stay out of it. You know? You go your way. You try to make the best of your life. I just try to live the best I can.	14:51
Mary Hebert	And you enjoyed yourself?	15:16
Doris Gibson Hall	Yeah, I enjoyed. Right.	15:18
Mary Hebert	You worked hard?	15:18
Doris Gibson Hall	I worked hard, but it doesn't take much for me. If I've got clean clothes and a place to stay and whatever, nice kids and whatever. I go to church, I have friends. I visit sometimes, but I don't have a lot of people coming to my house. I think I'm a pretty nice person. My friends think I'm pretty nice.	15:19
Mary Hebert	I have one more question. It just came to me. Did you ever belong to any clubs or anything within your church? The choir?	15:43
Doris Gibson Hall	Oh yeah. I'm on the Usher Board and I'm on the Hospitality Committee, and I teach Bible school every summer. I teach the little small ones from three to five.	15:50
Mary Hebert	You still like working with the kids?	16:01
Doris Gibson Hall	Yeah.	16:02
Mary Hebert	Okay. I'll turn this off now.	16:02

Item Info

Title:

Doris Hall interview recording, 1995 July 26

Date:

July 26, 1995

Creator:

Hall, Doris Gibson

Contributor:

Hebert, Mary

Description:

Name: Doris Gibson Hall; Date of birth: 1933-04-20; Place of birth: Norfolk, VA; Occupation(s): maintenance worker; teacher's aide; Residence: Norfolk, VA
Informant ID: 1002; Interviewed by: Mary Hebert.

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Language:

English

Digital Collection:

Behind the Veil

Source Collection:

Behind the Veil: Documenting African American Life in the Jim Crow South interviews, photographs, and project records, circa 1864-2011, bulk 1990-2004

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Related Resources:

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Provenance:

The David M. Rubenstein Rare Book and Manuscript Library acquired the Records of the Behind the Veil Oral History Project from the Duke University Center for Documentary Studies in 1997, 1998, 2000, and 2002.

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Limited Re-Use

CC BY-NC 4.0

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Copyright for content created by the Behind the Veil project is held by Duke University and made available to the public using a Creative Commons Attribution / Non-commercial (CC-BY-NC) license.

Identifier:

RL00170-CS-1311
1f317341-38a3-4f5d-941d-2c9ad648d816
behindtheveil
a5967f14-26f3-4be3-a169-3952a7e1d5b7
ark:/87924/r4zs2xn9g
a5967f14-26f3-4be3-a169-3952a7e1d5b7

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Doris Hall interview recording, 1995 July 26

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1. Doris Hall administrative file, 1995

John Hope Franklin Research Center

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John Hope Franklin Research Center

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