Edward Jordan interview recording, 1994 July 12

Download
- Rights
- Limited Re-Use
  CC BY-NC 4.0
  More Rights Info
- Files (2)
- MP3 Part 1
- MP3 Part 2
- Please be patient with media downloads. They are often large files.
Share

Embed Code
<iframe src='https://idn.duke.edu/ark:/87924/r4ww7k83t?embed=true' height='125px' width='100%' frameborder='0' marginwidth='0' marginheight='0' scrolling='no' loading='lazy' allowfullscreen></iframe>
Permalink

https://idn.duke.edu/ark:/87924/r4ww7k83t
Skip to Item Info

Loading the media player...

Files for this Item

Transcript

Transcripts may contain inaccuracies.

Kate Ellis	— Your name, when you were born and where you were born.	0:02
Edward Jordan	I usually don't give my birthday out.	0:05
Kate Ellis	Okay. Will you state your name and where you were born?	0:10
Edward Jordan	My name is Edward Kid Jordan. I was born in Crowley, Louisiana. That's in southwest Louisiana.	0:13
Kate Ellis	Crowley?	0:20
Edward Jordan	Right. C-R-O-W-L-E-Y.	0:20
Kate Ellis	Okay. Can you tell me the decade in which you were born?	0:23
Edward Jordan	In the thirties. I'll give you my exact date. 5/5/35.	0:28
Kate Ellis	Okay, thank you. Since we have just a short time, I want to ask you some questions I've been talking to people for about three weeks, about growing up in the South and during Jim Crow segregation, and people from all walks of life. And if you had more time, I would get a lot of information about what it was like for you, growing up, which I would like to know. But I'm curious about how you encountered and negotiated Jim Crow segregation laws, in the context of your musical career, coming up as a musician and performing and traveling. Is that too broad a question?	0:32
Edward Jordan	Well, traveling had posed a problem, because we couldn't stay in the hotels. I mean, good hotels. Sometimes we had to stay at people houses, sometimes we had to stay at what they call about a third or fourth rate hotel. Maybe like in a hotel in some of the Third World countries now. This is the kind of hotels we had to live in the south. And the only major hotel, Black hotels, say like we was going to New York or Washington, there was one hotel in Birmingham, Alabama, by the name of Gadsden.	1:20
Kate Ellis	Gadsden?	2:03
Edward Jordan	And it was the luxury hotel. And from then on, the next good hotel you got into was not really good, but you'd probably have to go to Washington. I think we used to stay in the Charles Hotel and Clara's Guest House. And then when we got to New York, I think — Let me see, what was the name of that hotel?	2:05
Edward Jordan	It really wasn't a top-notch hotel. I remember Castro and them stayed there, I just forgot the name of it. But it was a third rate hotel also. And you couldn't eat in the proper places. You had to get snacks wherever you could get. And I remember I wasn't in his band, but some of my friends went to use a bathroom for White only, and also using a drinking facility a water Fountain in Mississippi. And they had encountered a fight, just dealing with going in the bathroom and wanting to use the drinking facilities. So it really put pressure on you traveling. But after you got into towns — because we were playing for all Black people, usually they understood the problem. So they had cafes where you could eat, and sometimes you had to stay at their houses if you were in some towns, because they didn't have a hotel. But traveling, it really placed some restrictions on you, like having to go from long stretches without getting the proper foods, or whatever.	2:28
Kate Ellis	When did you start traveling as you were playing music?	3:47
Edward Jordan	Oh, probably around 1954, '55, something like that.	3:51
Kate Ellis	And before that you had been playing, I'm assuming around here?	3:56
Edward Jordan	No, I was in high school and college. So we were playing locally, around Baton Rouge and New Orleans. But I was out on the road, where some people had some national hits. So therefore we had to do quite a bit of traveling. So the road was the thing. I mean, the local kinds of things was all right, but when somebody had a hit record, then you had to hit the road in order to — And some of them were so hot. I mean they were so big that they could only play on the weekends, because they couldn't afford to play in some certain towns, unless it was the weekend. See, they was selling for so much that the promoters couldn't afford to hire them in the middle of the week. They had to hire them on a Friday, Saturday or Sunday in some large towns, because they had to pay so much.	3:59
Kate Ellis	I see. So that would get the largest audience and therefore—	4:53
Edward Jordan	That's right, for them to make some money. And if you were playing with a lesser known artist, then probably you could play what they call the Chitlin' Circuit in smaller towns. That's the name of it. Say like Ray Charles would come to New Orleans and play here, and in the week time he might play in Covington or Tibado, Louisiana or Lafayette. You may not be familiar with these towns—	4:55
Kate Ellis	I [indistinct 00:05:22]—	5:22
Edward Jordan	— of Baton Rouge. But he would play them in the week time and then on a weekend, he would play New Orleans, or Houston, or Birmingham or Atlanta, something like that.	5:22
Kate Ellis	And you were saying that you played for mostly Black or for all Black audiences?	5:33
Edward Jordan	Right, all Black audiences.	5:36
Kate Ellis	When you were [indistinct 00:05:39]—	5:38
Edward Jordan	But now, and when we was in college, we'd had all Black bands that used to play for all White audiences, because they had clubs. In fact, I did that for quite a long time. We would play for all White audiences with all Black band. And then we'd play with that same band on occasion, or other bands would play for all Black audiences.	5:40
Kate Ellis	Wait, say it again?	6:03
Edward Jordan	The band would play for all Black, it would never be a mixed audience—	6:05
Kate Ellis	Right. Oh, I see [indistinct 00:06:09]—	6:08
Edward Jordan	— Audiences was always Black or all White.	6:08
Kate Ellis	I'm curious about how the White audiences treated you. I mean, you're going into play for an all White audience, but are you going into a town where there isn't a hotel to stay—	6:13
Edward Jordan	Right.	6:22
Kate Ellis	— where they won't house you?	6:23
Edward Jordan	Right.	6:24
Kate Ellis	So what was that like? How did they treat you, once you got to the place where you were going to perform?	6:25
Edward Jordan	That's all you did, was perform and left. I remember one time we played in Shreveport, Louisiana and we was with Larry Williams. He had a hit record Bony Moroni. I mean this was when rock and roll was just getting started, in the early days of rock. And in those days, the young girls was looking at televisio and they were familiar with some of the people. And the sheriff and the state police — this was in Louisiana, made us change. The girls was coming around looking for autographs and what have you, little White girls. And we had to change clothes in Dallas, Texas because they told us to get out in three minutes.	6:32
Kate Ellis	They just said, "Get out—	7:17
Edward Jordan	"Get out, don't worry about changing, just get on out, because we don't want that carousing," or whatever word it is. But in some of the places, they only wanted the music. And we've had incidences where we've been playing in Hammond, Louisiana for an all White audience, and one of the band members had to go to the bathroom. So he went to the bathroom in the male bathroom and he had to fight in the bathroom, because wasn't anywhere else for him to go. And he was on the bandstand, he couldn't go outside and they thought he should have went outside, instead of going in the bathroom to urinate. So it was just that you were there to do a job, and the job was to play music. I've had cases where people, I'd have a horn stand on the stand, and they'd push it off and mess your instrument up.	7:17
Edward Jordan	So it was just mainly for the music. You knew you were in a hostile situation. It wasn't that, "All right, since you're playing music so-and-so and so." I've encountered places in the north say like — Let me see where this was. Waterloo, Iowa. And the people when we got there that day, they said, "We know y'all with the band. What band is in town? Because we don't have this many Black folks walking around." And we was looking for something to eat and what have you. And they knew, you see. He said, "What band is in town?" And we said, "Well, so-and-so." Said, Oh well, we know this." Because they knew it wasn't that many Blacks together, doing what we were doing.	8:16
Kate Ellis	And they treated you all right?	9:03
Edward Jordan	They treated us all right. But you still had that hostile kind of thing. And it's still in some places, it's still like that. I mean we talking about 20th century, we talking about 1994 and it's still some places, even the state of New York. In Boston, I've been treated badly in Boston.	9:05
Kate Ellis	Really?	9:24
Edward Jordan	Right. I've been treated badly in Evanston, Illinois, where I went to school at Northwestern. Sometime we say we think about as it was, but we still have some hostility going.	9:26
Kate Ellis	Yeah, that's certainly come up a lot. I mean you come in here and you say, "Tell me about the Jim Crow years." And they say, "Well, the Jim Crow years after 1960 or before 1960?" How does that affect your music, I mean when you're playing in a hostile situation?	9:42
Edward Jordan	Well, it affects the creativity to say [indistinct 00:10:07] then, but that kind of music, I've never been in a real creative situation during that kind of music. That kind of music was just like working on the railroad. Because you go and do a job, and you try to do the job as best as you can, and you do it and that's it. Now I'm playing in a band in New Orleans, that I'm the only Black person in the band. Everybody's White.	10:04
Kate Ellis	What band is that?	10:33
Edward Jordan	This is Herb Tassone's Orchestra. He used to play in the Fairmont, in the blue room. And the majority of the times — Well we don't play for Blacks at all. All audiences is for White. And sometimes it's integrated. But when the Fairmont, the blue room is a hotel downtown, it used to have acts and shows in it, where they have Blacks coming in. But now, we play mostly private parties. And well, all the audiences are not all White, because sometimes we play for a lot of shows. When we say shows, like industrial shows and conventions and stuff. And you have a few Black people, depending on the companies you're dealing with. But it has changed from me, playing an all Black situation, now I'm in an all White situation.	10:35
Kate Ellis	How is that?	11:27
Edward Jordan	It's good. I don't have no problem with it, because everybody in there respect one another, and it's a matter of respect. So I don't have no problem.	11:28
Kate Ellis	This is actually something I wanted to ask you about, because my impression is that, in all of these segregated situations, I've seen at different times, Black musicians and White musicians, and of course musicians of other races, ethnic backgrounds play together. And in a sense, it has at least looked to be a place, or an institution that can be integrated, can bring folks together in a certain situation. And I'm wondering if that's the case. There's a sense of music and sometimes of music transcending racial boundaries, at times and I'm wondering what your perspective is on that [indistinct 00:12:21]—	11:36
Edward Jordan	Yeah, well music transcends racial barriers. Because, I played DC last weekend. Last weekend? Yeah, I was in Washington the 4th of July, and we had an integrated band. The guy who was running the band was Caucasian, and had a Japanese girl on piano and another Caucasian playing another instrument. And I play with Caucasians quite a bit. I play with a German band, over in Germany. I don't have no problems with the music, but the thing that happens with the music, on the end of — like we're talking about, in Europe sometimes, we playing and people come up with tape recorders, and video cameras. And then after you go back over the next two or three years, then they got records out. And when it—	12:21
Kate Ellis	[indistinct 00:13:07]?	13:07
Edward Jordan	Right. That's the part that Blacks have always suffered and they're still suffering, when it comes to the money end of it. Everything is cool on a bandstand. But after the records and the people who's manipulating, then at one point, Black folks didn't pay any attention to it. But in this generation, we all aware of it. That's because that's the first thing I told you, when I came into it. Said Little Richard and them, had all kinds of records that people was getting the royalties on. Now, I know for a fact there was people, making money on some songs that were recorded in New Orleans, that they didn't have anything to do with it. And their name is on there, as far as writers and publishers. And some of those songs are in movies now, and they're talking about some serious money. And some of them are not getting that money. And that's still the thing, playing and all that is a good feeling. But when it's coming out and making some money, it's still on the other end.	13:07
Edward Jordan	The people who's in control, are the ones who's making the money. And that's why some youngsters, I mean, some of them are bitter and they deserve to be bitter, because everything is all right when you're on a bandstand, and somebody else will take your ideas, and then they go sell it and you left out in the cold. So that's the main thing. That's the main problem now. It's not the music of being on a bandstand, but when it come down to dealing with—	14:03
Kate Ellis	[indistinct 00:14:31] separate facility.	14:31
Edward Jordan	That's right. It's about the money now. And really, I was talking to one of my friends in Europe last night, and he was telling me about the hotel he was in and London didn't have air conditioning it. But the kind of money he's making, he said, "Man, I don't mind it, because when I get back home, I'm going to have some serious money." And like I told him, "When I go over, I get all that straight, to see if they can't put me up in a decent hotel, at least they got to give me some money, so I can get whatever I want to get. I don't have to stay where they want me, but I can go and deal with whatever facilities I want to."	14:32
Kate Ellis	So what about getting back to the pre 1960s period of your career, as far as how you were paid?	15:10
Edward Jordan	Well, the wages were low. Pre 1960, we used to make eight, nine, $10 a night. And that was a scale — they had a rural scale. We used to go from here to New York City for 22.50.	15:20
Kate Ellis	22.50?	15:34
Edward Jordan	A night, 22.50. That was the scale. But now you have to take in consideration that everything was on a low economic scale. It wasn't like it is now. For instance, in 1955, I started teaching school for $2,800 a year. That was my first contract, $2,800. So that eight or $10, we talking about teaching school for nine months for $2,800. So that eight or $9 a night was equivalent to that kind of situation.	15:37
Kate Ellis	This is probably a naive question, but I'll just ask it as far as how White musicians were paid, and was there an obvious difference between how much Black and White musicians were paid?	16:15
Edward Jordan	Well, I was in the union, but still in New Orleans, it depends on where you play. All the places in New Orleans now, are considered a class B situation. And a class B doesn't get as high wages as a class A. The unions have certain places where you're classified as A, B or C.	16:25
Kate Ellis	So it's where you play?	16:47
Edward Jordan	Right. So if you're playing out at the Hilton, that's a Class A, but if you're playing in one of those places downtown, like the International Longshoremen's Hall, that's a class B. So Class B scale would be different from a class A scale.	16:48
Kate Ellis	What about some place like Snug Harbor?	17:03
Edward Jordan	Snug Harbor is considered a B scale too. Snug Harbor's on the B scale. So everybody who work in Snug Harbor, whether they're Black or White, they get paid on a B scale.	17:06
Kate Ellis	What about in the fifties or the forties?	17:18
Edward Jordan	I wasn't dealing with them in the forties, but in the fifties you got whatever you could, but it was basically from, six to eight, to 10 to $12. Because anytime you could go from here to New York City and give a 22.50, and when you was on the road, that was the scale, 22.50 was considered top scale on the road.	17:25
Kate Ellis	Really?	17:49
Edward Jordan	Right. And a lot of bands adhere to that. 22.50, that's what you got a night.	17:50
Kate Ellis	Wow. Did that include the paying for whatever—	17:56
Edward Jordan	You had to pay for your hotel and eat, and all of that, out of that. So you really had a serious problem.	18:01
Kate Ellis	But it seemed worthwhile to do it?	18:08
Edward Jordan	Right. You could make some money, based upon what you was making, $8 or $6 at home.	18:10
Kate Ellis	And did you enjoy it?	18:15
Edward Jordan	You enjoyed it, because you was doing some music. And rock and roll was on the cutting edge then. So it was something worthwhile to do. And being out with hot acts, that was a different thing. It was not with just ordinary run of the mill people.	18:17
Kate Ellis	So that was —	18:37
Edward Jordan	Yeah, you could make some money and still do what you was talking about doing. I mean doing an artistic kind of thing.	18:38
Kate Ellis	Were you ever in situations where you might play in an integrated band, and it's like you'd play together, but then socialize in different totally different places?	18:48
Edward Jordan	Well, a lot of times the White musician would come and seek out the Black musicians before the thing. They was coming out and learn some of the things that we were doing. And that has always been, they still done that. And that has always been, since Louis Armstrong days. For instance, the first recording that they made in New Orleans was Nick LaRocca's Band, from out in [indistinct 00:19:22]. They didn't record Freddie Keppard and them, they recorded Nick and them. And Nick and them got the music from Freddy and all of predecessors from Louis Armstrong. So they were coming to see what was going on. And basically, that's still the same thing. It's not a biased question, but the majority of innovators in jazz — in fact all the innovators in jazz has been Black, up to this point. So when Miles had a whole lot of White boys in his band, and a whole lot of other people.	19:01
Edward Jordan	So when the thing always go to another level, it's always been — like on that Coleman and Coltrane and them, took the music to another level. Ray Charles said something the other day. Did you hear that interview where he said, "Elvis Presley —" You didn't hear that?	19:55
Kate Ellis	No. What was it on? Where was [indistinct 00:20:12]—	20:10
Edward Jordan	It was on one of them primetime shows.	20:12
Kate Ellis	[indistinct 00:20:15] usually turn on the TV.	20:15
Edward Jordan	And Ray said something. He said he would lose probably one third of his fans. But he was talking about, they was trying to say how Elvis Presley fit in as being a king of rock and roll and all that. And he pulled the covers off of that, and he told it exactly like it was, because he lived through that period.	20:17
Kate Ellis	And he said he was not the king of Rock—	20:34
Edward Jordan	No. Well I mean, at that time, everybody who was in that idiom knew how that was.	20:37
Kate Ellis	How would you talk about it? I mean, you see this guy so famous, he's making so much money.	20:43
Edward Jordan	I know, right.	20:48
Kate Ellis	How would you talk about him?	20:49
Edward Jordan	Well, Ray said he got up dealing with what Willie May Thornton and some of the others had done. Jailhouse Rock and Hound Dog, and all that kind of stuff. And that's basically what it was. And he got an audience and this was something new. And the White folks ate it up and the Blacks were doing some things, but they just was for small artists, like I said, for the Chitlin' Circuit. And some things just blossomed out. And when it got to be known, he was the king of rock and roll.	20:52
Kate Ellis	But it's also, I mean obviously, it's because he's White. I mean—	21:21
Edward Jordan	Well—	21:26
Kate Ellis	— it sounds like there's [indistinct 00:21:27]—	21:26
Edward Jordan	Well, some people just didn't know. I mean, he wasn't used to listening to Black music, that name has been just been orientated into that kind of music. And that was the first one they heard. So therefore, some of them was probably ignorant to the fact that some of that music hadn't gone on before. You know, can't just only say it like that. But then they started pushing it. And then before that, or when Elvis first came out, a lot of people wouldn't let White children listen to it, because they say it would contaminate them or whatever.	21:27
Kate Ellis	But they did.	22:00
Edward Jordan	Well—	22:02
Kate Ellis	No, I mean that's cruel to say.	22:02
Edward Jordan	What I'm saying, that was their first time hearing that kind music. So as a result, they probably was ignorant to the fact they might have thought he created that music.	22:04
Kate Ellis	I guess what I meant is that I thought that there was an implication in what you were saying, that there isn't a way that a Black person could have gotten famous doing that, because there would've been a barrier there.	22:16
Edward Jordan	Well, they were famous for Black audiences, but they wasn't famous for White audiences. They had a whole lot of them were doing a whole lot of things, just like Black baseball players. I mean they had a Negro league, that could challenge a whole lot of them, Babe Ruth and a lot of them. But they never got a chance to do it, because they were just in the Negro League. And at some times, when they would play bomb storming, when they'd play against some of those teams, they would beat some of the people who had won the Pinners that year. But as a result, I mean it was just in the circuit that they were dealing in. And that has always been, so I don't know how you going to correct that.	22:31
Edward Jordan	Just like some of us, some people figure you got to go to New York in order to really play jazz to prove yourself. But there's a lot of musicians in some small towns, that really can play. But they're not in the media, they're not in the limelight like New York. And as a result, when they go to New York, somebody says, "Where you come from?" or so-and-so, so, but some people choose not to live in New York and not to go through all of whatever New York has to deal with. So it has always been like that.	23:12
Kate Ellis	How much time you got?	23:48
Edward Jordan	A little time.	23:49
Kate Ellis	Can I ask you a little bit about what you remember about growing up? Now, where did you grow up? You were born in Crowley, but did you come up in Crowley?	23:54
Edward Jordan	I was raised in Crowley, yeah, small town.	24:00
Kate Ellis	What was the town like? I mean, small town. What was your neighborhood like?	24:07
Edward Jordan	A Black neighborhood. Everybody was striving to do something. Everybody in my community, we all were into music, or whatever. There was two or three guys were medical doctors and different kinds of things. I mean, we went to a good high school and you had an opportunity to develop, if you wanted to develop. But the majority of the people thought that the kids were trying to do something. So all of us was on a track. We were aiming at going somewhere and doing something.	24:08
Kate Ellis	And your thing was music?	24:42
Edward Jordan	Right.	24:43
Kate Ellis	What was the name of your high school?	24:44
Edward Jordan	Ross High School.	24:46
Kate Ellis	Ross High School.	24:47
Edward Jordan	And I went to Southern University as a teenager. I was about 16 when I went to Southern, and that's in Baton Rouge. And I've studied music, so I've been on a musical path all my life, and I've been teaching and playing ever since.	24:49
Kate Ellis	And then you went up to Northwestern. When did you go up to Northwestern?	25:11
Edward Jordan	I went up to Northwestern in the sixties or seventies. I went to Millikin University in Decatur, Illinois and got a master's. Then I did some further work at Northwestern in Evanston.	25:15
Kate Ellis	I see. Okay. Were there other musicians in your family? I mean, how did you end up picking up —	25:29
Edward Jordan	Oh well, I have quite a number of people in my family that were musicians. I mean they didn't use music as a life work. They played music and did other things. But there were quite a number of people that's — I've been surrounded by music for quite a long time. But I'm the one that started out to do just music as a profession. And just like in those days, everybody, music wasn't a thing that somebody did for a living, they did it as a vocation. I mean vocation was something else, where they were playing or whatever else. And they played music on the weekends, like that.	25:35
Kate Ellis	What did your family think when you decided you were going to — or perhaps you just evolved into doing it. Did you decide to yourself, "I'm going to do this, this is going to be my career?" Or did it just get to the point where you were making your livelihood by playing music?	26:13
Edward Jordan	No, I knew I was going to study music, because I was seriously taking lessons when I was a kid. I wanted to get everything that I could possibly get out of music. I just didn't want to be a jazz musician. I wanted to learn the whole aspect of music. And I knew in order for me to do that, I had to go to university, because I saw a whole lot of people that could play music. But I didn't want to just play music. I wanted to do the whole gamut. And I had some very good teachers when I was young, so I wanted to emulate them. And I knew in order for me to do that, I had to get a serious education, and I had to practice and do what everybody else did that was serious in music.	26:27
Kate Ellis	Are there things that stand out to you, when you were growing up, about Jim Crow segregation or experiences with Whites in that period?	27:19
Edward Jordan	Stand out. Not really, because I knew my place and they knew their place. But they had some White kids that was playing music, and I knew they couldn't touch me and they knew they couldn't touch me, when I was in high school. They were going to White high school, I was going to a Black high school. But when they draw the line, like people say, "Man, this guy can play so-and-so, and play —" And we'd get together, they knew they couldn't touch me. And I don't know, it was a thing. I never did let anybody put a thing on me, by being a minority or inferior, all them kind of thing, because I always went from a brain standpoint. And I knew then that my parents didn't have the money that they had probably, but they kept me well. My clothes was clean and I had the necessary things. I wasn't lacking in anything.	27:30
Edward Jordan	I didn't come out of a poverty situation. And we owned our own home, and we had what have you. So it wasn't a thing that I felt inferior. And then, when I heard Charlie Parker's music, I knew that was — Like I tell people, I knew that was the best music on this earth. So when I started playing, I didn't come out like some people say jazz is inferior. When I heard Charlie Parker, I knew that was some superior music. So I started, I mean I was playing, but when I really got into it, after I heard him, I started going at it. And I knew he wasn't an inferior musician. So when I started, nobody could tell me that Beethoven's music was any better than Charlie Parker. And I heard classical music when I was a kid, because my first teacher came from the parish conservatory.	28:34
Edward Jordan	So I didn't have any problems with quality. And once you understand quality at a young age, then you don't have no problems with it. How can I say? That I didn't want to do some of the things, maybe that I knew that I was going to this school, and I knew where I was, and where I stayed. So it was a line that was drawn. I mean, you didn't cross the line. You knew what you had to do, and they knew what they had to do.	29:21
Kate Ellis	And you just existed within that?	29:50
Edward Jordan	Right, within that framework. And that's the way it was. And I'll tell you something, I don't know how this is going to take it, but some things that we had in the Black community, integration messed it up. Sometimes I think, I wouldn't mind going back on the bus. Some of these kids that come to [indistinct 00:30:15], they had to ride the back of the bus. See when we'd get on a bus there in New Orleans, if we had a band, they had to move the thing. So sometimes we get on a bus with a drum set, a bass, violin, saxophones going, because too many people didn't have cars. And we was going somewhere to practice, and we'd get on a bus and they'd have to move it. But when I think of some of them guys who was riding on the back of the bus, and what they accomplished, and what they knew, and how well it could play. And when integration came in, that broke up — We gained some things, and we lost some things.	29:52
Kate Ellis	So you lost, what did you lose?	30:47
Edward Jordan	Say, the city of New Orleans. All the killing they got going on and all them different kinds of things. I was talking to somebody last night. When somebody got killed in the city of New Orleans, it was like a catastrophe that happened. And now, you may have three people killed in a day. And the quality of education in the schools.	30:51
Kate Ellis	Was it better do you think in the Black schools?	31:07
Edward Jordan	It was better in the Black schools, than it is now.	31:12
Kate Ellis	Why is that?	31:12
Edward Jordan	Well, we had it closer. It was a more cohesive thing than more people were striving, to try to get somebody to do some things. And nowadays, you see kids walking around, don't even have a aim, they walk around aimlessly and so forth. So the Black community has suffered with the process of integration, I believe.	31:14
Kate Ellis	What have you gained?	31:36
Edward Jordan	I don't know. I'm still trying to see what we've gained.	31:38
Kate Ellis	Because you said a minute ago, there were some losses and some gains. It sounds like the losses [indistinct 00:31:48]—	31:42
Edward Jordan	The losses — right—	31:48
Kate Ellis	— stand out.	31:48
Edward Jordan	And you see, like Southern University and opposed to the UNO. I mean, we got an institution, but we not as well-equipped as UNO. And we both state institutions. So we still back to Jim Crow—	31:48
Kate Ellis	Still—	32:02
Edward Jordan	— when you look at it really. I'll tell you something, I have taught people, that work in universities, that make twice as much as me, and still some of them take lessons with me. So that's a hard pill to swallow.	32:02
Kate Ellis	You mean like teaching White people [indistinct 00:32:24]?	32:21
Edward Jordan	Yeah, that's right. And I had a student, about two, or three years ago, that was making twice as much as me. He's teaching at a prestigious school, and he is still taking lessons with me. So it's one of them things, but I don't let things like that eat me up, because I understand how this whole situation works. And if I have to deal with that, then that'll stop me from doing the other things that I got to do.	32:25
Kate Ellis	So you just—	32:48
Edward Jordan	Yeah, I'll just move on.	32:48
Kate Ellis	Yeah. Well, I know I'm taking up a lot of your time. I want to ask you a few questions from the family history things, some basic things, so I can at least fill out of it. And then we'll have to understand that I just can't get it all with you. But if it can come by, maybe sometime later this week, if you had some kind of biographical [indistinct 00:33:26]—	32:53
Edward Jordan	Well, my thing is just got education and who I played with, and all them kind of stuff.	33:27
Kate Ellis	Well, that'd be great. And I—	33:32
Edward Jordan	It's really not updated. Because the majority of the people who deal with me, know who I am. And if people ask me about calls, and what have you, when I go away, and if a person don't know — The majority of the time, somebody call me and if I don't know them, sometimes I don't even return the call.	33:32
Kate Ellis	Well, this is also just partly from the historical — I mean, I know that your life is documented and I know that I come here knowing less than most people, but—	33:51
Edward Jordan	Not necessarily. I mean, this is the way it is.	34:01
Kate Ellis	So that's why I can just include it with this. I don't want to take up another half an hour of your time, asking detailed questions. So can you give me your full name?	34:05
Edward Jordan	Edward L John.	34:19
Kate Ellis	Okay. L?	34:20
Edward Jordan	Mm-hmm.	34:20
Kate Ellis	Okay. What does the L stand for?	34:29
Edward Jordan	L.	34:29
Kate Ellis	Okay. How about your address?	34:35
Edward Jordan	7541, Afton Drive. A-F-T-O-N.	34:36
Kate Ellis	What's your zip?	34:41
Edward Jordan	71127.	34:42
Kate Ellis	127. And I've we've got that. So how would you like your name to appear in written documents, in an official document?	34:42
Edward Jordan	Edward Kidd Jordan. K-I-D-D, with two Ds. Majority of people know me by Kidd anyway.	34:56
Kate Ellis	And are you married?	35:07
Edward Jordan	Right. Got seven children.	35:09
Kate Ellis	Okay. Can you tell me their names and when they were born?	35:14
Edward Jordan	I don't have the slightest idea when they was born.	35:17
Kate Ellis	How about their names?	35:21
Edward Jordan	Edward L Junior, Kent Jordan.	35:23
Kate Ellis	Kent?	35:32
Edward Jordan	Yes. He has three albums on CBS. Christi Jordan	35:33
Kate Ellis	With a K or a C?	35:40
Edward Jordan	C.	35:41
Kate Ellis	C? Is it Ch?	35:41
Edward Jordan	Right. Paul Jordan.	35:45
Kate Ellis	I heard your kids perform at the Urban League.	35:50
Edward Jordan	Two of them, was that?	35:54
Kate Ellis	Yeah.	35:55
Edward Jordan	Three of them really.	35:55
Kate Ellis	Paul?	35:55
Edward Jordan	Right. Stephanie, Rachel, and Marlin.	36:00
Kate Ellis	Marlin.	36:12
Edward Jordan	Right.	36:13
Kate Ellis	Do you have any grandchildren?	36:14
Edward Jordan	I've got five.	36:15
Kate Ellis	How about brothers and sisters?	36:18
Edward Jordan	Living, I got one sister and one brother.	36:22
Kate Ellis	And what are their names?	36:25
Edward Jordan	Felton Domino, that's my sister.	36:29
Kate Ellis	Felton Domino?	36:32
Edward Jordan	Mm-hmm. And Edgar Jordan.	36:33
Kate Ellis	What about the ones who are deceased?	36:41
Edward Jordan	Ain't no sense in talking about them. They're gone.	36:43
Kate Ellis	And would you tell me your wife's name?	36:52
Edward Jordan	Edvidge. E-D-V-I-D-G-E Chatters Jordan.	36:57
Kate Ellis	Chatters?	37:03
Edward Jordan	C-H-A-T-T-E-R-S.	37:04
Kate Ellis	And where was she born?	37:11
Edward Jordan	New Orleans.	37:14
Kate Ellis	And what does she do?	37:14
Edward Jordan	She's a housewife.	37:14
Kate Ellis	What about your mother's name?	37:23
Edward Jordan	She's deceased, also. So no sense in dealing with that.	37:25
Kate Ellis	Okay. Let me ask you this, what did your parents do when you were growing up?	37:31
Edward Jordan	My parents died when I was young. My father died when I was a little boy and my mother died when I was in high school.	37:35
Kate Ellis	You said that you lived in a house and that you didn't — How were you taken care of?	37:46
Edward Jordan	Well, my mother, my brothers, and then after my father died, when my mother died, my grandmother lived across the street. So she had a house, we had our house and it was just a family situation. Extended family.	37:53
Kate Ellis	Yeah. Okay, so you don't want to tell me what they did before they died, or what your grandmother did?	38:14
Edward Jordan	Well, my grandfather worked, my grandmother was a housewife, and my father worked. He worked at a mill in Crowley. Before he worked at a mill, he worked at a refinery in Texas and then he worked at a mill in Crowley, a Rice Mill. But other than that, that's the only thing I knew he did.	38:26
Kate Ellis	And?	38:50
Edward Jordan	My mother was a housewife.	38:55
Kate Ellis	And your grandfather worked, right? Did he work in the mill as well?	39:02
Edward Jordan	He did some farming. And what else? He had worked at the mill. He might have probably had retired. He was probably done some farming there.	39:11
Kate Ellis	There was something else. It's going to come. Oh, just again, would you just tell me your parents' names, so there's a bit of a family tree here in this?	39:30
Edward Jordan	My father's name was Leo Jordan, and my mother's name was Pauline Pete Jordan.	39:50
Kate Ellis	Was P — does that stand for—	40:03
Edward Jordan	P-A-U-L-I-N-E, Pauline. Pete, P-E-T-E Jordan.	40:05
Kate Ellis	Oh, and was the Pete her maiden name?	40:10
Edward Jordan	Right.	40:13
Kate Ellis	And they both passed away when you were young?	40:23
Edward Jordan	Right.	40:24
Kate Ellis	And I'm not going to ask when your wife was born, but can I assume it was in the 1930s?	40:27
Edward Jordan	Right.	40:33
Kate Ellis	And I think as far as the details of this, I can probably get these from whatever you can give me, as far as a biographical sketch or whatever. I mean, I get a sense of your work history and your educational history, and then it also asks about awards and honors and offices you've held.	40:43
Edward Jordan	I mean, all them kinds of things. I mean, I take that with a grain salt, all of that.	41:10
Kate Ellis	Really?	41:15
Edward Jordan	Well, I can give you the education. I went to Southern University, I went to Millikin University in Northwestern. Now—	41:16
Kate Ellis	When did you graduate from Southern?	41:23
Edward Jordan	1955.	41:27
Kate Ellis	And Millikin, did you go to Millikin right after?	41:28
Edward Jordan	No, it was some years later.	41:32
Kate Ellis	Okay. Oh, that's right. Millikin and Northwestern in the 1960s?	41:34
Edward Jordan	Right. Sixties or seventies, sometimes I can't keep up with dates.	41:36
Kate Ellis	Okay. I think that that's a pretty good general sketch. And my guess is that other stuff is documented, that I can maybe get from you, if you have a chance to find something. Is there anything that you would add to this brief conversation, about what we've been talking about? Anything as far as what I should know, or what you remember about that period, or about your career?	41:49
Edward Jordan	Not really. I'm just a musician. I've been teaching and playing and that's what I want to do. Continue to teach and continue to play.	42:21
Kate Ellis	I guess when you spoke so briefly at the Urban League, you talk about a commitment, a real commitment that you have to young people, as far as educating them in music. And I think you mentioned starting a school or a program?	42:34
Edward Jordan	Yeah, we got the kids who just left. I work with them at 11 o'clock. From 11:00 to 12:00. And I do have another school. I teach the Jazz and Heritage School and they got a good little band, they started at three years ago. And these are some kids that go to different schools. And I'm working with them, to try to get to technical aspects together. So that started the Monday after the Jazz and Heritage School. That's associated with the Center for — That—	42:55
Kate Ellis	The African—	43:25
Edward Jordan	Yeah, center for African-American status. I'm dealing with them with a grant from them. So they come every day from 11:00 to 12:00. And in the school time, I go to some schools after school and work with them, and sometime in the morning. There's a lot of people can play music, but there's some other things other than just playing music.	43:26
Edward Jordan	Just like I understood that when I was a kid. But a lot of them don't understand that you got to get all the technical facilities together, and learn about the theory of music. Because I write quite a bit of music. In fact, when I play with my band, I don't play nobody else's music but mine. And the kids that I'm dealing with, with the Jazz and Heritage School, the whole repertoire was written by me. So in order to do that, you got to have some understanding about some kinds of things in music. And I was playing that tape for the guy who just came in. And some of it sounded like classical music, like composers. After writing, I went in the studio and just started playing off the top of my head. So I mean, there's some things you have to understand about some serious music, in order to do some things.	43:51
Edward Jordan	And it is not all about how many records you got or so-and-so and so, [indistinct 00:44:41], because there's a number of people that have played and nobody will know anything about them. And I understand that it's just a few people, like Louis Armstrong wasn't near the greatest musician down in these parts. But Louis Armstrong was the one that got all the notoriety. And in a lot of situations, a lot of people who are supposed to get notoriety for some reason or another, they don't get it. And that's one of the aspects of this whole life situation.	44:36
Kate Ellis	The whole musical life situation?	45:12
Edward Jordan	The whole any situation. I mean, the best people in a whole lot of situations don't necessarily be the ones that's on the top doing it. And sometimes in sports, it gets to that way. But sometimes the people, say like the people who play in New York will play for the Yankees. I mean, they're playing, I mean they get a lot of media attention, but somebody playing in say like in Ontario, Canada, playing in the Midwest somewhere, very seldom they going to get the attention of people that know about them as much. Ken Griffiths out in Seattle now, he's a hell of a ball player, but if he was in New York, I mean Ken Griffith's name would be —	45:13
Edward Jordan	So that's the way it is. And music, that has been quite a — Well, knowing the people who's been in some situations and by traveling, you run across people who say, "Wow, well how they didn't make it?" But it doesn't necessarily be the ones who are the best that always make it. It's ones who — a little luck and some other kinds of thing.	45:54
Kate Ellis	Why do you think Louis Armstrong, I mean, gained the notoriety that he did? I mean, as opposed to others who you think are his equals or better?	46:17
Edward Jordan	Well, he had probably the most showmanship with all of them. And he left at the right time. He went to Chicago. So that had something to do with it too. And when he went to Chicago, they hadn't heard anything like that in Chicago. So therefore they had to do it. But they had some old men here that Louis Armstrong — I had an uncle in my family, Louis Armstrong was afraid of him as he was a rattlesnake.	46:25
Kate Ellis	Really?	46:44
Edward Jordan	But I mean, they didn't necessarily.	46:45

Edward Jordan	— Bische went to France, but Bische could have probably been the one of the best musicians in New Orleans. And he was a contemporary of Lou Armstrong. So like Martin Luther King wasn't the greatest one in the Civil Rights movement. But Martin Luther King is known as, when you talk about that, it's Martin Luther King. But there are other people who were probably greater than Martin Luther King.	0:01
Kate Ellis	Like who? Does other people, or is there somebody else that stands out?	0:24
Edward Jordan	No. Well, there's some people, his contemporaries, that I really can't call no names, but there was a guy who started something before him. Somebody in Alabama, that was much more, he was more radical than Martin Luther. And some of them who was in that process. But he was a great orator, so therefore he came out being the—	0:28
Kate Ellis	The one.	0:50
Edward Jordan	The man in the movement.	0:50
Kate Ellis	What was your uncle's name?	0:52
Edward Jordan	But I don't want to get into that.	0:53
Kate Ellis	Okay. Just—	0:55
Edward Jordan	Yeah.	0:56
Kate Ellis	Huh. Yeah. Yeah, that's always actually been a mystery to me. Why? The best musicians do not necessarily get the greatest attention.	0:58
Edward Jordan	Right.	1:12
Kate Ellis	I wonder—	1:12
Edward Jordan	Well, Bechet was probably the best down here at that time. They had some up the river around Reserve. And all these little pockets, like when they'd start out, they had great musicians in all of them. Because some of them were influenced in a different kinds of ways. And so they added, they had something else to add to the music.	1:12
Edward Jordan	And those that were close to the Texas line, and those that were close to southwest Louisiana, they were playing Zydeco music. They played jazz. So they had more influences than some of the others that just played some similar kind of music. For instance, like Fats Domino, the way he played rock and roll, some people don't even associate Fats Domino with rock and roll. But Fats Domino could very well be the one who ushered in the whole thing of rock and roll.	1:30
Edward Jordan	And like I heard Fats say on the interview last Sunday, "Well, what they call rock and roll, we was calling that rhythm and blues." But the handwriting was on the wall for rhythm and blues, Fats clearly brought them into something else. But they were still talking about rhythm and blues. So the music colleges, that's their business to get all of them try to see what was happening. They was just playing and hearing some different kinds of things.	1:59
Edward Jordan	And by the time Little Richard and Chuck Berry took it, then they started talking about it. And then when Elvis got it, they was calling it rock and roll. But the others was on a threshold, they were doing it, but they hadn't named it yet. Just like Charlie Parker, by the time they named his music bebop, Charlie Parker and they'd clearly gone somewhere else. So the people usually come with the names. And by the time they call jazz, jazz, Buddy Bowling and them had started, the music was clearly somewhere else.	2:25
Edward Jordan	And by the time they come up with the names, so the names is always something that really don't have anything to do with the music. For instance, the type of music I play, people call it free music, or avante garde, or all of that. But I would prefer to call it creative music. Because all them names, you get hung up. If the avant garde, people start thinking about Stockhausen and some of the 20th Century composers. If you're talking about free music, then some of them think you're playing and you don't have to get paid for it. It's free form. I but I say, it's creative music, because you create it.	2:59
Kate Ellis	I noticed you had a Sun Ra Symposium.	3:32
Edward Jordan	Right. So you familiar with Sun Ra music?	3:34
Kate Ellis	Very a little bit. I saw an interesting kind of piece on him a few months ago. It was really— It was the only performance I've ever seen of his. It was—	3:40
Edward Jordan	Well, I played with Sun Ra, so I played the whole gamut of the music.	3:50
Kate Ellis	That must have been—	3:52
Edward Jordan	From right from the beginning of Rock and roll to Sun Ra, so I've done played that and beyond.	3:54
Edward Jordan	You from New York? Where you from?	4:04
Kate Ellis	Well New York and Cambridge, Massachusetts.	4:05
Edward Jordan	Cambridge, Massachusetts.	4:05
Kate Ellis	Yeah. So yeah.	4:05
Edward Jordan	Sun Ra, they used to play at New England Conservatory, in Boston.	4:13
Kate Ellis	How was he received up there?	4:19
Edward Jordan	Oh, well in that circles, people are looking for something. And if they don't understand it, if they don't like it, they still will be gracious to you. But it wasn't really, they don't really turn out to his music. You familiar with Caesar Taylor?	4:23
Kate Ellis	Mm-hmm. I mean, not very. I'm kind of familiar with it.	4:37
Edward Jordan	Yeah. Well people attend his concerts and what have you, but it's a move out of respect of so-and-so-and so.	4:41
Kate Ellis	But they don't understand?	4:48
Edward Jordan	No, and not necessarily into the music.	4:49
Kate Ellis	Right.	4:51
Edward Jordan	Because that's not fashionable and they're not making money on Cecil's music. Are you familiar with Ornette Coleman?	4:52
Kate Ellis	Mm-hmm.	4:58
Edward Jordan	Well, you know?	5:00
Kate Ellis	Yeah.	5:01
Edward Jordan	So it's not really fashionable, but sooner or later everybody is going to get to it. And jazz musicians always go through that. Every generation goes through it.	5:02
Kate Ellis	Well people don't get it until they like a couple generations later.	5:10
Edward Jordan	That's right. Well Bach was dead a hundred years before they got to his music.	5:19
Kate Ellis	Wow. He was genius.	5:19
Edward Jordan	Yeah, so that's the thing.	5:20
Kate Ellis	Yeah.	5:20
Edward Jordan	But then you see, you have to have people who's teaching, and playing, and try to keep somebody going. Because all I'm really interested in is to try to find somebody to try to help shape somebody so they can be an innovator. Because if we don't have some innovators, then the music starts dying out. That's like marrying in your own family. After a while, destroy everything.	5:21
Kate Ellis	I've heard some people say that jazz is dead, in a certain sense. Which I don't definitely believe—	5:45
Edward Jordan	Yeah, well I can very well see that's happening, because all the young players now are playing like the old people. Now everybody who's playing now is playing like Miles played in the 60s and the 70s. And Miles refused to do that. And all of them put together are not going to ever be a Miles Davis, because Miles was probably the hippest. When he died, he was probably the best musician on the planet. And Miles was looking for new directions.	5:49
Edward Jordan	So I can very well see when people say jazz— And this is what I'm about, I'm trying to shape somebody's mind so they can be open enough, so it can keep on innovating. Because the one thing constant about jazz is change. That's the thing that makes jazz, jazz. It's constantly changing. And you got to have some serious kind of people, and you got to have some serious rhythm, because when jazz change, rhythm is the first thing. And this is why.	6:18
Edward Jordan	Now they got some serious Europeans. But the rhythm, they haven't developed rhythm in there yet. And I'm not saying it as to put anybody down, but this music is based on some rhythm. And every time jazz changes, it has to— The rhythm is the first thing that goes. Because Sun Ra, Caesar Taylor and them playing some real advanced rhythms. I mean, when you hear them playing. And from a melodic, the melodic thing is different.	6:47
Kate Ellis	Yeah, I don't understand it at all. I would never pretend to.	7:13
Edward Jordan	So that's the thing. But you don't have to really understand it in order to appreciate it. That's the thing. Because there's a whole lot of things, I don't know if you're Catholic or Baptist? Or what are you Jewish or what?	7:16
Kate Ellis	Kind of— No, I'm sort of a— I guess what you might call a backsliding Christian. I came up in an Episcopal Church.	7:29
Edward Jordan	All right, well see like everything, you don't understand every people who's dealing with the Bible. They don't understand everything, but you just have to take it on faith. And this is what happens with music. People don't want to take the music on faith. They want to understand it. And they don't understand about, when I get in the airplane, I don't understand the aerodynamics. I mean—	7:33
Kate Ellis	But you're still flying.	7:52
Edward Jordan	Right. You understand what I'm talking about? Think about it. So if I had to understand aerodynamics, then I would never fly. So if you got to understand everything about music, I mean, in order to appreciate it, that's just serious kind of conflict.	7:53
Kate Ellis	But I find the more I learn about it, the more I appreciate what I'm listening to.	8:07
Edward Jordan	Well, I can understand that. And especially, well the reason why people didn't pay attention to the early music, because they were dancing to it. But the music that we're talking about, now they didn't have to pay attention. They were just dancing. But now it's another thing. You're listening, trying to get an appreciation for it. The dancing aspect is over.	8:11
Kate Ellis	All right.	8:31
Edward Jordan	All right.	8:33
Kate Ellis	I appreciate your time.	8:35
Edward Jordan	All right.	8:36

Item Info

Title:

Edward Jordan interview recording, 1994 July 12

Date:

July 12, 1994

Creator:

Jordan, Edward L.

Contributor:

Ellis, Kate

Description:

Name: Edward L. Jordan; Date of birth: 1935-05-05; Place of birth: Crowley, LA; Occupation(s): musician; educator; Residence: New Orleans, LA
Informant ID: 545; Interviewed by: Kate Ellis.

Occupation:

Location:

Format:

Language:

English

Digital Collection:

Behind the Veil

Source Collection:

Behind the Veil: Documenting African American Life in the Jim Crow South interviews, photographs, and project records, circa 1864-2011, bulk 1990-2004

Series:

Related Resources:

See below

Provenance:

The David M. Rubenstein Rare Book and Manuscript Library acquired the Records of the Behind the Veil Oral History Project from the Duke University Center for Documentary Studies in 1997, 1998, 2000, and 2002.

Rights:

Limited Re-Use

CC BY-NC 4.0

Rights Note:

Copyright for content created by the Behind the Veil project is held by Duke University and made available to the public using a Creative Commons Attribution / Non-commercial (CC-BY-NC) license.

Identifier:

RL00170-CS-1220
f95e2057-324c-48f8-b38a-82d2abfadd2f
behindtheveil
a3f562b7-88e3-464b-97b2-34deb7ed0b58
ark:/87924/r4ww7k83t
a3f562b7-88e3-464b-97b2-34deb7ed0b58

Permalink:

https://idn.duke.edu/ark:/87924/r4ww7k83t

Sponsor:

Sponsor this Digital Collection

Edward Jordan interview recording, 1994 July 12

Transcript

Item Info

1. Edward Jordan administrative file, 1994

John Hope Franklin Research Center

More Info & Options

Transcript

Item Info

Related Items

John Hope Franklin Research Center

More Info & Options