Malvie Giles (primary interviewee), Ruby Pickens, and Madge Shepherd interview recording, 1995 July 21

Download
- Rights
- Limited Re-Use
  CC BY-NC 4.0
  More Rights Info
- Files (2)
- MP3 Part 1
- MP3 Part 2
- Please be patient with media downloads. They are often large files.
Share

Embed Code
<iframe src='https://idn.duke.edu/ark:/87924/r4154rx95?embed=true' height='125px' width='100%' frameborder='0' marginwidth='0' marginheight='0' scrolling='no' loading='lazy' allowfullscreen></iframe>
Permalink

https://idn.duke.edu/ark:/87924/r4154rx95
Skip to Item Info

Loading the media player...

Files for this Item

Transcript

Transcripts may contain inaccuracies.

Speaker 1	Had General Motors that had Blacks working and just as soon as the war and that time was over, they let those Blacks go and they weren't hiring any more Blacks. And then I applied New York Central Railroad, I wanted to go on the track as an engineer. And that wasn't open either, but I did work in the shop, New York Central Railroad Shop, for a while.	0:02
Paul Ortiz	[indistinct 00:00:44] looks like—[INTERRUPTION]	0:35
Malvie Johnson Giles	Giles. I was Malvie Johnson. I grew up right here in this area, about two blocks from this campus. Just come across the [indistinct 00:00:55] and the school system, the school buildings is where I went to school. My mom bought property to the west of us and that's where I lived on the couch and—What else did you want?	0:46
Paul Ortiz	Mrs. Giles, could you tell me what your family did to make—	1:13
Malvie Johnson Giles	My dad worked at that time, what was called a cotton mill, where cotton cloth was made here in Magnolia. The White folks worked inside making the cloth. And my dad was probably just like a janitor or doing the menial work around that plant. My mom washed and ironed for those same clients who worked at the cotton mill. So she did the domestic type work.	1:18
Paul Ortiz	And Mrs. Giles, how many people were in your household when you were growing up?	1:54
Malvie Johnson Giles	When I was growing up, there was four. I have a brother, my dad and my mother and my brother and me. However, my dad left us when I was about eight years old. And so my mother raised my brother and me.	1:58
Paul Ortiz	Mr. Giles, could you tell me about the community, the Black community, when you were growing up? What it was like and who was in it?	2:12
Malvie Johnson Giles	The Black community was definitely Black community. The White folk were on the other side of the town. We were right in this location or wherever, we were mingling with Black people wherever they were. And we were not really welcomed in the White neighborhood per se, except to work in the homes and do the kinds of jobs that White folk hired us to do. We were not a part of the livelihood, the social acceptance in the community. We were totally separated.	2:18
Paul Ortiz	And within that, within the Black community Mrs. Giles, was there a sense that people would share with each other within that?	2:59
Malvie Johnson Giles	There was a very wonderful sense of unity in the community among Black folk where the church, the school and the community made a nucleus of togetherness. I thank God for all three of those because had it not been for those three, we wouldn't have had anything else. The church, the school and the community. And that's where our livelihood took place, in those areas. And of course, in the home.	3:07
Paul Ortiz	Okay. During hard times Mrs. Giles, say it was a particularly difficult year, would Black families share with other families if there were—	3:35
Malvie Johnson Giles	Oh yes. Oh yes. Even those persons—There were farmers in the country. Well, out five miles or something, out of town. And these farmers were very, very sharing. We had a lot of relatives who were farmers, so we always had something to eat. We always had fresh vegetables. And during all the seasons, the four seasons, we had that. And many of the Black folk would come with their truck wagons, selling their various crops in the community. Peas, watermelon, potatoes, whatever it was at that time. Peaches, whatever. At a very minimal price because we all were making very little per hour, per day, per week, per month.	3:46
Paul Ortiz	Mrs. Shepherd, could you tell me about where you were born at and what it was like?	4:43
Madge Rabb Shepherd	Well, I was born in Louisiana but we moved Magnolia when I was around six years old. So most I know is Magnolia.	4:48
Paul Ortiz	Okay.	5:01
Madge Rabb Shepherd	I was a Rabb before I married. Lou Rabb was my daddy. He was a farmer. And when I married—You don't want to know nothing about married life, do you?	5:04
Paul Ortiz	Oh, whatever you'd like to tell me.	5:14
Madge Rabb Shepherd	I married a preacher and my son was a preacher.	5:19
Paul Ortiz	Mrs. Shepherd, what year did you move to Magnolia?	5:31
Madge Rabb Shepherd	Really I can't remember. I was around six years old. Could you help me? I really don't know because—	5:37
Malvie Johnson Giles	What's your birthday year? The year?	5:49
Madge Rabb Shepherd	1906.	5:51
Malvie Johnson Giles	Okay. That would have been about 1912.	5:53
Paul Ortiz	1912. And Mrs. Shepherd, when you moved here growing up, what was it like growing up in Magnolia?	6:01
Madge Rabb Shepherd	Well, the group had—They rushed us from Louisiana. That's when they were rushing a bunch of us. And we had to come to Magnolia.	6:09
Paul Ortiz	And now Mrs. Shepherd, what was the rushing? What was happening?	6:22
Madge Rabb Shepherd	Down there. Well, in a way the White was hard on Negros and none of those families had to get out because they—In other words, they was beating us up and some of them being killed and whatnot. That was back down there when it was really rough.	6:26
Paul Ortiz	So Mrs. Shepherd, White people were attacking your family?	6:48
Madge Rabb Shepherd	Mm-hmm. Yes, sir.	6:51
Paul Ortiz	Mrs. Shepherd, do you remember what caused what was happening? It was just vigilante violence or?	6:54
Madge Rabb Shepherd	Well, that's just a lot of meanness boy. They were just mean to Colored folks then. We didn't have—In other words, they were just mean. We had to get out for safety.	7:01
Paul Ortiz	And so you grew up Mrs. Shepherd, in a parish that was right across the border or?	7:18
Madge Rabb Shepherd	No, I grew up just about six miles from home, home of Louisiana.	7:23
Paul Ortiz	Oh, okay. Mrs. Shepherd, when you moved here, did you know, what were the differences between Magnolia?	7:29
Madge Rabb Shepherd	It was some different when you got here. It was much different than what happened there.	7:43
Paul Ortiz	Okay. What were the major differences that you remember between the two areas?	7:55
Madge Rabb Shepherd	Well, in a way, they wasn't quite as hard. We were out on the farm, my daddy was a farmer. When we were out there, really they didn't even want us to go to school. We lived on Warner's place. I think that was about the first place when we got here. But anyway, he didn't want us to go to school. He just wanted us to just stay there and work in the field.	8:01
Paul Ortiz	Mrs. Shepherd, that was here in Magnolia?	8:35
Madge Rabb Shepherd	Huh?	8:39
Paul Ortiz	That was here in Magnolia?	8:39
Madge Rabb Shepherd	Yes, here in Magnolia.	8:39
Paul Ortiz	And your family was farming on halves?	8:43
Madge Rabb Shepherd	Mm-hmm.	8:47
Paul Ortiz	Okay. And did you live within the city limits here or out in the county?	8:47
Madge Rabb Shepherd	Yeah. Well, in the city limits, one farm is—What is that Ruby? Back the other way?	8:57
Ruby Monk Pickens	The one at Springfield?	9:05
Madge Rabb Shepherd	No, out there.	9:08
Ruby Monk Pickens	Taylor?	9:10
Madge Rabb Shepherd	No out your way.	9:11
Ruby Monk Pickens	Oh, the city limits?	9:13
Madge Rabb Shepherd	Mm-hmm.	9:15
Ruby Monk Pickens	McNeil?	9:16
Madge Rabb Shepherd	No.	9:17
Malvie Johnson Giles	I think it was county. It was county.	9:17
Madge Rabb Shepherd	Uh-huh. Yeah.	9:17
Malvie Johnson Giles	The city limit stops right at the end—Or out here almost by the highway.	9:23
Madge Rabb Shepherd	[indistinct 00:09:31]	9:28
Malvie Johnson Giles	Yeah. So I'm sure it was county.	9:31
Paul Ortiz	Mrs. Shepherd, did your community have a name?	9:35
Madge Rabb Shepherd	We lived we called it Scott Town.	9:41
Paul Ortiz	Scott Town. Okay.	9:43
Malvie Johnson Giles	Is that out there by Calhoun?	9:43
Madge Rabb Shepherd	Mm-hmm.	9:43
Malvie Johnson Giles	Oh, that's city limits.	9:48
Paul Ortiz	Okay.	9:49
Malvie Johnson Giles	I thought you meant further.	9:50
Madge Rabb Shepherd	Yeah, that's Scott Town.	9:50
Malvie Johnson Giles	Scott Town. That's city limit.	9:50
Ruby Monk Pickens	Where I live now.	9:50
Malvie Johnson Giles	Callwell. Out in Callwell.	9:50
Ruby Monk Pickens	Boundary. Scott Town is right over in there.	9:59
Malvie Johnson Giles	Mm-hmm. Yeah. By the tracks.	10:04
Madge Rabb Shepherd	Yeah.	10:04
Malvie Johnson Giles	Past Reverend Moore, that was Scott Town.	10:06
Paul Ortiz	Mrs. Shepherd, Scott Town, was that an all Black community?	10:10
Madge Rabb Shepherd	Yeah. All Black.	10:12
Paul Ortiz	Okay. Could you tell me what the community was like and who—	10:16
Madge Rabb Shepherd	They were all good neighbors. They was all good neighbors. They shared.	10:19
Paul Ortiz	Mrs. Shepherd, when you were growing up, what were the important holidays that the community celebrated?	10:26
Madge Rabb Shepherd	Well, we had Christmas lunch and what else?	10:47
Ruby Monk Pickens	Thanksgiving.	10:47
Madge Rabb Shepherd	Thanksgiving.	10:47
Malvie Johnson Giles	Juneteenth.	10:47
Madge Rabb Shepherd	Easter.	10:47
Paul Ortiz	Oh, and you celebrated Juneteenth in the area?	10:47
Malvie Johnson Giles	Yeah. Oh yeah.	10:49
Paul Ortiz	What were the Juneteenth celebrations like in this—	10:51
Malvie Johnson Giles	The Juneteenth celebration was something like Independence Day, the 4th of July.	10:53
Ruby Monk Pickens	Only they called it June 19th.	11:00
Malvie Johnson Giles	Yeah. But this was specially for Black folk.	11:00
Ruby Monk Pickens	Yeah. Uh-uh.	11:00
Paul Ortiz	Okay. I want to get back to that because we talked to some people in Memphis about that. But before we get to that, Mrs. Pickens, could you tell me something of your family background and when you were born and where you grew up at?	11:04
Ruby Monk Pickens	I was born in 1929 in McNeil, Arkansas. Just outside of Magnolia. My father was a farmer. He worked before he farmed, for AMNA College for 50 cents a day. And then he had—His first children were twins. And I'm the second child of 10 children. And we grew up out there on the farm and when he'd worked there so long, he bought 40 acres of land from old man Overstreets. Then he bought 40 more acres from them Hunts. And then he bought 40 acres from the Beasleys. And then he bought 40 acres from the Gantz.	11:17
Ruby Monk Pickens	And he finally accumulated 300 acres of property out there on 79 Highway. And we farmed. And one year we raised about 50 bales of cotton. Next year, it was about 76 bales of cotton and I decided I better leave at that time. I was tired of picking cotton. But we never farmed for anybody else except—When he left the college working, he got his own farm. And we had a lot of hogs and cows and when we'd kill hogs, everybody in the community got a hog. Meat. We didn't sell it, we'd give it to them. They'd come over and they'd eat it.	11:58
Ruby Monk Pickens	We had a bunch of peach trees and everybody would get peaches. And we'd raise peanuts and corn and peas, and just give it away to the community folk. We had mules and horses and a wagon, but we didn't come to Magnolia very much, until in the later days. And we never did sell stuff when I was at home. After I left home, they sold stuff, but we used to give it to each other. And the college kids would come out and steal watermelons and my dad would go out and say, "Well, you don't have to steal them, just ask for them."	12:35
Ruby Monk Pickens	Because we always raised a lot of stuff. And he'd say, "You have to raise enough for the rogues too. And enough for the lazy folks." And we have college kids coming back now to see my daddy. If they stole watermelons, he'd sit them down and talk to them out there, and told them about stealing and how they could make it in life. If you're stealing a watermelon, pretty soon you'll be stealing something else.	13:09
Ruby Monk Pickens	And we had two or three ponds on our farm that the CC camp built. And all the kids from downtown McNeil would come out on Sunday evening and he'd sit around the pond and he'd throw them off in the pond. That's the way the Mary house went. And he'd talk to the kids, especially about sex because they would be afraid to talk to their parents about it. And my daddy would talk to them about that.	13:32
Ruby Monk Pickens	And they liked to come out there on Sunday. And mother would have to cook three or four chickens and cook big cakes. And they were called flamdonies at that time. Big pound cakes and high stacked. Not just two layer cakes like they have now, they had three or four layers of cakes. And she'd have to cook for all those people that come from McNeil. And we had one or two families, "We eat now. We got to go." Mama told us when we ate, to go. So they would leave. They would leave and go back to town. But when we visited town, we had to be back before sundown. And if you didn't get back before sundown, you got it.	13:56
Paul Ortiz	Were there people that didn't get back?	14:37
Ruby Monk Pickens	Yes. You mean from visiting each other?	14:41
Paul Ortiz	Yes, ma'am.	14:44
Ruby Monk Pickens	Yes. Me and my brothers and sisters got a lot of whippings because we didn't get back before sundown. That was just the rule.	14:45
Paul Ortiz	From your parents?	14:52
Ruby Monk Pickens	Yes, from my parents. Uh-huh.	14:52
Paul Ortiz	Okay. Mrs. Pickens, could you tell me what kinds of responsibilities did you have growing up?	14:59
Ruby Monk Pickens	Well, being the oldest girl, when my mother was having children, I started cooking, washing and ironing when I was standing up on a box, to reach the top of the stove and the cabinets and stuff. And I done everything. I cooked and we had rub boards and washed and put the clothes in the pot, those baby diapers. And sometimes it was cold and I was busting the coal [indistinct 00:15:34]. I think that's why God didn't give me a lot of children, because he knew I paid my dues with my seven brothers and sisters. Helping to raise them. But at the time, it wasn't all that hard. I look back and wonder how I made it over sometimes. And in later years, we grew up and got—After we passed about five or six mules and horses farming, finally got an old farm oil tractor and started doing farming with that.	15:07
Ruby Monk Pickens	And the boys would go out at night, slip out at night, and they'd be sleeping the next morning. And I had to drive the tractor because they asleep. They was plying up the cotton and corn.	16:02
Paul Ortiz	Oh.	16:09
Ruby Monk Pickens	So it was fun but it was hard work. And then my daddy wasn't on the school board in McNeil, but they asked him to come to the school board meeting and they would talk about the buses, that we had too many buses. The expense was too much. So the Black kids had to walk. We had to walk three a half miles to McNeil school. And he told them, he said, "Now, if you were to cut out some of those buses, then put those Negro children and those White children on that same bus, you wouldn't have to have no two buses going down the same—" And that's the way he said it, "Negro."	16:14
Ruby Monk Pickens	"And that would stop the expense", he said. So one night the CC camp people that worked down there—You don't know what the CC camp was. It was a conscientious objective camp. And these people came out and worked on farms and they planted sodded grass. And that's the way we got our ponds built, they built those ponds. And they were having a meeting one night in McNeil and this meeting was called in order to try to scare my daddy to stop him from telling people that they were somebody and all that.	16:49
Paul Ortiz	Mm-hmm.	17:25
Ruby Monk Pickens	And he got word of it. And he hid in a ditch out in front of the school, to keep this posse from doing something to him. And these White people that lived there for him, are in touch now with us. The Hollandsworth live in Minnesota and Bob Fullfoot lives in Ohio. And they come back every so often, to see the family and see what's going on around McNeil. And we went to visit them just a few years ago in Minnesota. And Bob Fullfoot came through here this year, to see us. And they bought us a typewriter, gave it to us. And that's the way I learned to type, on this typewriter. And that's why I got the job as Negro librarian here, in Columbia County, in Magnolia. And we had separate quarters, to go in the Black door down here and the White door up there.	17:27
Paul Ortiz	I'm interested in what was the role that women played in each of your communities? Did the women—Were there midwives?	18:31
Malvie Johnson Giles	My mother was not. My mother worked, washed and ironed. That was her role. And of course the church, she was very active in the church.	18:45
Paul Ortiz	Wow.	18:52
Ruby Monk Pickens	We all had a doctor, Dr. McClyde. And when the mother had the babies, he would come out to the house. We never had a midwife. All of her children were delivered by a doctor, Dr. McClyde. And one child by Dr. Cooksie because Dr. McClyde was delivering another baby somewhere at that time. Never to go into the hospital, just come out to the house and boil the water and send the older kids to the neighbor's house. And the child was born and you go back, they say, "Oh, you got a little sister."	18:55
Malvie Johnson Giles	I think my mom told me I was born by a midwife. But I can't remember that midwife's name. Even though we lived in town, my mother was 13 when she married. So she was still a child. She was 14 when my brother was born and 16 when I was born. So she had to go back on the farm in the country. And midwives were in that area. So I think I was born by a midwife. I don't know who but—	19:26
Ruby Monk Pickens	My daddy went to the third grade in school and he could read and write and figure as good as anybody. My mother went to the ninth grade and she taught school in McNeil for a while.	19:57
Paul Ortiz	Okay. I wonder if all of you were talking to an audience of young people and you were telling them what was the worst aspects of segregation when you were growing up, what would you tell them?	20:13
Ruby Monk Pickens	They just thought they were better than we were. And that's one of the things that my daddy instilled around all these people coming around his pond, that you're as good as anybody. And he even read scriptures from the Bible, to tell you that there was one god, one faith and one baptism. And nobody was any better than anybody else. There was one heaven and one hell, and hell has enlarged itself. And I remember that right now, that he'd tell you those things.	20:32
Malvie Johnson Giles	Well, I'm a speaker and a singer. And I do speak to young people. One thing I tell them is that, when I grew up, we did not have the books, the textbooks, like the White school had over here. We were sent the old ratty ones. And my mother worked for these White people. One day I got this girl, one of the White girls books, the back was torn off and I cried and told my mom about what I had got. She says, "Well, don't cry. Don't even worry about it. Just try to learn what's in the book, inside the book. The back doesn't matter."	21:00
Malvie Johnson Giles	So even now, I tell them, "You have opportunities to study in the books that you have. Do that. Because we did not have—We got the old hand downs and the handouts. New books were not a part of this system when I was growing up in this school. Later years, it was. But that is one of the handicaps, the terrible handicaps, that I—And we could not go to the White school. I think it was when I—About 12th grade, we were able to go over to the White school gym for our basketball games. We had to play out here on the dirt ground. We didn't have a gym. So we did not have a lot of the things that the White school had, where money was appropriated. We were handed the second hand and the throwaway things.	21:42
Ruby Monk Pickens	Some man over at the college gave my dad a great big box of books. And he brought those books home and distributed them around among those children in the community. And we read every letter. He taught us, he said, "I didn't have the opportunity to read. I want you to read." We read aspirin bottles, we read soap labels. We read everything that we saw, we read it. And when we'd read that, he said, "Now what does that word mean?" And my grandpa used to say, "Check out the dictionary from a library, so you can learn. All you want to read was the dictionary. You can learn all you need to learn."	22:41
Paul Ortiz	Mrs. Shepherd, could you tell me—Now you had a slightly different experience, migrating, your family coming from Louisiana. And you've already told me a little bit about some of the discrimination. Were there other examples of racism that you and your family had to deal with, when you were coming up?	23:20
Madge Rabb Shepherd	[indistinct 00:23:49]	23:43
Ruby Monk Pickens	Because you washed and ironed.	23:52
Madge Rabb Shepherd	Yeah, I washed. You mean after I got to Magnolia?	23:54
Paul Ortiz	Yes, ma'am.	23:57
Madge Rabb Shepherd	Oh, I washed and ironed [indistinct 00:24:04] I mean me and my husband—I washed and ironed to help put my kids through college. I washed and ironed for 75 cents, since I've been in Magnolia, for money.	24:04
Paul Ortiz	Did you work primarily for White families?	24:20
Madge Rabb Shepherd	Mm-hmm. Yeah, these were White.	24:26
Paul Ortiz	Okay.	24:27
Madge Rabb Shepherd	I washed and ironed for a number of White families here in town. They didn't have washing machines and things here then. We washed—I used to boil, a black pot boiler, draw the water. Had a well in my backyard.	24:34
Paul Ortiz	And Mrs. Shepherd, this is when you were married?	24:54
Madge Rabb Shepherd	Yeah. This is when I was married.	24:57
Paul Ortiz	Okay. Were you still living in the same area that you grew up in?	24:59
Madge Rabb Shepherd	Here in Magnolia?	25:02
Paul Ortiz	Yes, ma'am.	25:02
Madge Rabb Shepherd	Yeah.	25:02
Paul Ortiz	Okay.	25:02
Madge Rabb Shepherd	I mean, yeah. No, because I was living in Scott Town when I grew up. I wasn't married. You mean after I married?	25:12
Paul Ortiz	Yes, ma'am.	25:16
Madge Rabb Shepherd	Oh yeah. I'm still in the same place. We had our own home.	25:17
Paul Ortiz	Okay. Did you work with other Black women in the laundry business or did you work by yourself?	25:22
Madge Rabb Shepherd	I worked by myself at home. I done the washing and ironing in my house.	25:33
Malvie Johnson Giles	See, I don't remember—Well, I don't know what Ms. Madge does. I don't remember a laundry. Black folk did their washing and things at home. The term, 'took in', washing and ironing from the White folk. They would bring their things to the Black home. And this black pot that you heard mentioned, is a big black—I don't know if it's steel or what. But they'd make a fire under this pot. And we had to separate the clothes by color and put the washings in those various clothes. And draw the water from sometimes old dilapidated wells, or carry it from a neighbor's house, the water.	25:38
Madge Rabb Shepherd	And burn your hands with that rope, drawing that water. You had to draw so many tubs.	26:24
Malvie Johnson Giles	And three and four tubs of water to rinse the clothes. So it was a chore just to wash. And the clothes were pretty white because they used the lye soap, the homemade soaps, to get the clothes clean.	26:28
Paul Ortiz	Okay.	26:43
Madge Rabb Shepherd	And we used the black irons. We didn't have electric irons then. I had to use the black iron. Done five and six washes in one week and you used that black iron.	26:44
Malvie Johnson Giles	That you had to heat either on the stove or the fireplace.	26:59
Madge Rabb Shepherd	Yeah. We had an old furnace, put coals in it to heat your iron.	27:02
Paul Ortiz	Mrs. Shepherd, I wonder, could you move up a little bit? I want to make sure that we have your voice on the tape here.	27:10
Madge Rabb Shepherd	Oh, okay.	27:15
Paul Ortiz	Ladies, I wonder if you could tell me what were some of the most important institutions within the Black community—	27:19
Ruby Monk Pickens	Church.	27:31
Paul Ortiz	When you were growing up?	27:31
Ruby Monk Pickens	Church. [indistinct 00:27:35]	27:33
Malvie Johnson Giles	Yes. And another devastating thing about my experiences growing up. When we graduated from high school—And that's where I was this morning, [indistinct 00:27:47] the whole campus this morning. Southern Arkansas University presently. But before then, was Arkansas Manual and Agricultural School. Then it became State College, Arkansas State College. Blacks were not allowed to go there. We're talking about even from this area. We could walk over there but we were not allowed—Any student who graduated here in Magnolia from any of the Black schools, had to leave town to go to college.	27:35
Malvie Johnson Giles	Sometimes they had to even leave the state to go. But the closest place for us was Little Rock, where they had several Black colleges and we could go there. Now thank God, ASAU is open to anyone who wants to go. It's a very lovely campus, beautiful campus, has a graduate program. I don't know whether they have a doctoral program or not. But that took years for that to become a reality.	28:19
Paul Ortiz	I wonder if each of you could tell me what kinds of experiences or stories passed down to each one of you about your ancestors? About your grandparents or your parents, and stories of their experiences and their struggles coming up?	28:52
Ruby Monk Pickens	My people had to leave Louisiana too. They left at night in a wagon. And they had the wagon covered and the children underneath a sheet or blanket or something. And told them to be real quiet. This is my granddaddy. And then my mother's daddy, they left Louisiana like that too. And they drove all night long. They'd leave after dark and they drove on up to Arkansas. And that's how they got up to Arkansas. Arkansas evidently was a little better.	29:12
Malvie Johnson Giles	I guess. But even now—	29:43
Ruby Monk Pickens	But it was still nasty.	29:46
Malvie Johnson Giles	In the southern states, the slave problem was all over.	29:47
Ruby Monk Pickens	Yeah.	29:51
Malvie Johnson Giles	There were some states that were a little more lenient to Blacks and accepted Blacks much quicker. And like Ms. Madge said, she came from Louisiana because they were still holding on to some of the slave habits. And my grandfather lived in Louisiana. And I understand his name was something else down there, but when he came to Arkansas, he chose the name Johnson. And that's how I'm Johnson.	29:51
Paul Ortiz	Okay.	30:20
Malvie Johnson Giles	My maiden name is Johnson. My stepfather came from Shongalou, Louisiana. And he was still under the slave rule. He was not a slave but he was under the slave rule. And they beat him and his wife helped him. They tied him to a tree and beat him. And his wife helped him to escape. Now he crawled and he was just very, very, very weak. And he finally crawled to the Arkansas line and that's how he got the freedom, from the Louisiana.	30:21
Paul Ortiz	From Louisiana.	30:56
Malvie Johnson Giles	Yes.	30:57
Paul Ortiz	And that was during slavery time?	30:58
Malvie Johnson Giles	Yeah. No, this was not during slavery time. This was after slave had been abolished. But the practice was still there.	30:59
Ruby Monk Pickens	My great granddaddy came from Louisiana like that and they sic the dogs on him. And he got in a hollow tree and stayed in that tree for a couple of days, until the—the dogs was going all around it. He must have run around, they couldn't find the trail. And he stayed in there a couple of days until he finally come home. Ain't that awful?	31:09
Madge Rabb Shepherd	Yeah. It was rough. Wasn't it?	31:30
Paul Ortiz	Mrs. Shepherd, did your experiences that your grandparents had, pass down to you? Did they talk about their—	31:32
Madge Rabb Shepherd	Well, one thing my granddaddy, he was able to buy some property in Louisiana. He had his biggest oil well in the field of Homer, Louisiana. They'd taken that. It was really when the oil was booming. That was a big well down there, we would've been rich today.	31:41
Ruby Monk Pickens	And they'd take it up here in Arkansas. We had a well going on our place, pumping 90 barrels of oil a day. And it pumped one week and they shut it down.	32:07
Paul Ortiz	How did they shut it down? What happened?	32:18
Ruby Monk Pickens	Oh, they just took out the rigs and closed it up. Kept it off. They said, "We won't have no more George Wes's in McNeil, and in Columbia County." There was one Black man, George Wes, he had all the wells around here.	32:20
Paul Ortiz	Mrs. Pickens, the sheriff did this or the—	32:33
Ruby Monk Pickens	No, the company that was drilling the oil wells.	32:36
Paul Ortiz	What was the company?	32:40
Ruby Monk Pickens	Sure. Sure's Rig or something I believe.	32:42
Madge Rabb Shepherd	[indistinct 00:32:48]	32:44
Paul Ortiz	And that happened during the time you were growing up?	32:48
Ruby Monk Pickens	Yes.	32:50
Paul Ortiz	Okay.	32:50
Ruby Monk Pickens	And then since that time, they've done some more drilling over there. They shut that one down. Said that, "We'll have no more George Wes's."	32:51
Paul Ortiz	Is that still-	32:57
Ruby Monk Pickens	And they took this George Wes out and beat him, made him write checks and things. And he was out of his mind kind of, when he died. You remember George Wes?	33:00
Malvie Johnson Giles	I remember the name but I was gone at that time.	33:09
Ruby Monk Pickens	Yeah.	33:13
Malvie Johnson Giles	It seemed that Blacks were not eligible to have oil, to have the bromine and the minerals on their land. And with the White folk in charge of the municipal positions, tax collectors and all of that, where they would have the facts on who owned the land.	33:15
Ruby Monk Pickens	Yeah.	33:41
Malvie Johnson Giles	Some kind of way, they maneuvered and bought or took all of the land where Black folk had something that was going to be profitable to them. I don't know any Black folk who have all their land now. Do you?	33:41
Ruby Monk Pickens	Uh-huh. They cap it all. They do that. Now see, this was right out here, not long ago. They leased that land again and said that they had a streak of oil. They skipped that place. They got an oil well on 19, going to Waldo. And they skipped over all those Black folks in there. They got oil wells over on Will White's place over here. Right now, they pulling and drawing it out from under there I guess. And you know what? I don't even hate them for it. I just will not belittle my soul.	33:55
Malvie Johnson Giles	But it is mysterious that underground, the oil ceases to stop at my property and start at yours.	34:29
Ruby Monk Pickens	Yeah, right. It's amazing. I experienced some terrible things when I started working at the library. They'd say, "Negro", and all that kind of stuff. And they'd give us the old books.	34:37
Paul Ortiz	Mrs. Pickens, you started working there in the fifties?	34:59
Ruby Monk Pickens	Started working there in 1949.	35:01
Paul Ortiz	1949.	35:02
Ruby Monk Pickens	Mm-hmm. I retired in 1990.	35:02
Paul Ortiz	And that was in the local library here?	35:07
Ruby Monk Pickens	Yeah.	35:09
Paul Ortiz	Okay.	35:10
Ruby Monk Pickens	It was a county library.	35:11
Paul Ortiz	County library.	35:11
Ruby Monk Pickens	Drove a bookmobile to the school. We had a Black bookmobile and a White bookmobile. That hasn't been a long time ago.	35:12
Madge Rabb Shepherd	No.	35:23
Paul Ortiz	And the library, was there one county library?	35:25
Ruby Monk Pickens	Yes.	35:28
Paul Ortiz	Okay.	35:29
Ruby Monk Pickens	Go in one door for the Black and the other door for the White, right across the street from the county jail. And then we passed the civil rights law in 1964. We still had the dual checkout system. I filed a suit with the Civil Rights Commission that we remove that desk. And I really got in hot water for doing that. And they came down and took me in the office with this librarian. Said, "She is in her rights. She will not be intimidated by anything you say or do. If so, let us know. Don't say a word to her and move that desk today." And that's the way the desk got moved. They don't like me now but they respect me.	35:29
Malvie Johnson Giles	I came back home in 1975. I left in '48. And during that time—Well, I don't really know when welfare per se started here in Arkansas or when it started wherever, but particularly in Arkansas. From 1948 to 1976, there were no Black county administrators in the whole state. I'm the first Black county administrator in the state of Arkansas, after having come home. Now I know that there were persons in Arkansas who qualified, but the announcement did not get in the hands of Blacks. So they did not know of the openings.	36:17
Paul Ortiz	It's kind of like the old boy network.	36:57
Malvie Johnson Giles	Yeah.	37:01
Ruby Monk Pickens	[indistinct 00:37:02] everything.	37:02
Paul Ortiz	I wonder if each of you could tell me what was the difference between the education that you were able to acquire growing up, compared with your parents' education?	37:05
Ruby Monk Pickens	My parents were self-taught, I guess. My granddaddy never went to school and he lived in Camden with his daughter for a while. And the Camden principals used to come over and get ideas from him about math. And you could call out the cotton weights to him and he didn't write them down. When you got through calling them out, he'd tell you what it was. And he could write, he could really write. We saved some of his letters, just to let people—And he never went to school. Never. Our parents taught us at home. We just had to learn.	37:22
Malvie Johnson Giles	My mother went to sixth grade and as I told you, she married at the age of 13. So that took care of her schooling but she—	37:58
Ruby Monk Pickens	'Cause she learned though.	38:06
Malvie Johnson Giles	But she told my brother and me, "You are going to go much further than I did because I'm going to see to that." The learning that she had, she'd give to us. Then you would sit down around the heater and do our lessons with mama's instruction, and that was the learning that we had.	38:09
Malvie Johnson Giles	Now, her mother never went to school. My grandmother never went to school. She always worked. She could not even read her name. And this was principally, the situation with many older Black people. They had to work in the cotton field and in the fields, where the farmer was raising whatever. They had to go to work. I mean, from sun to sun. And they were not able to go to school—	38:25
Ruby Monk Pickens	Kitchens and all that stuff.	38:52
Malvie Johnson Giles	Ms. Madge can speak to some of that too.	38:56
Madge Rabb Shepherd	Yeah. My father, his daddy couldn't read and write. But they see'd us through education. I finished high school at the old academy. I first went to school over here and then went to the academy. I finished from the academy, all my family.	39:00
Paul Ortiz	Ladies, I wonder if—Each of you shared stories about your grandparents and their experiences. When you were each growing up, did your family or did elders in the community talk about slavery days, slavery times?	39:27
Ruby Monk Pickens	My granddad did. I never knew my great granddaddy, but my granddaddy talked about the times that his daddy had. And even down in Louisiana, I have cousins and aunts and uncles that are half White because they had children by the slave master. And I really and truly, there ain't no White folks in this country. They all mixed with something. Yet they try to be so true blue. And we all God's children. On Oprah's show, just the other day, she had those people on there.	39:45
Paul Ortiz	I heard about that—	40:29
Ruby Monk Pickens	Cansas on there and that's the truth.	40:31
Madge Rabb Shepherd	Yeah.	40:32
Ruby Monk Pickens	Dr. Monk, that's over the VA hospital in Shreveport, Louisiana. My uncle Buit was in the hospital and he came to him and told him who he was, and that his daddy had slaves. And that's probably where we got our name from. Monk.	40:32
Malvie Johnson Giles	Well, my trips to Africa reveal even that more—	40:47
Ruby Monk Pickens	Oh boy, I know it.	40:52
Malvie Johnson Giles	Because there are three races of people, three groups of people. The Europeans who have been infiltrated into the African countries, then there are those who are called Coloured, C-O-L-O-U-R-E-D. We've been called Colored in our growing up but it's a different spelling. The person who's called Coloured in Africa means that they have a White father.	40:56
Ruby Monk Pickens	Oh, they're mixed.	41:21
Malvie Johnson Giles	And their mother is an African woman. Then there is the Black African. Now the Coloured, C-O-L-O-U-R-D-E-D, are what would be called second class, because their main relatives are first class. And those first class relatives going to be sure they see about their second class. Those are their children. Okay. That's here. That happened here in America. But they didn't want it known. The slave master, as has been said, could have anybody he wanted on the slave farm. But he didn't want it known. The children turned out to be as White as that board, many of them. But still, it was an embarrassment to him to recognize at all. But now, it's coming to light.	41:22
Ruby Monk Pickens	It happened right here in Magnolia. My parents used to talk about Bob Warner. He had a Black child. I mean he had a child by a Black woman. And after her mother died, Bob Warner used to sit up in front of that bag and talk to his daughter.	42:11
Malvie Johnson Giles	Sam Grayson too.	42:28
Ruby Monk Pickens	That's who I'm talking about, Sam Grayson—	42:30
Madge Rabb Shepherd	Thelma.	42:31
Ruby Monk Pickens	Thelma. [indistinct 00:42:33]	42:31
Madge Rabb Shepherd	They were the ones that claimed [indistinct 00:42:38] now and send me all the clothes that were Holiday.	42:32
Ruby Monk Pickens	Yeah. And I guess that's the only one that I know about when I was small, that really was recognized. But they are—Oh, there are a lot of them around here, a lot of them. My granddaddy's sister, Aunt Terrier, was as dark as me or darker, and she had an almost White son, Tobart Monk to live out here. And people couldn't understand why it was Tobart Monk came to us and he looked so different from us. But he was my Aunt Terrier's son by that slave master down there in Louisiana.	42:43
Paul Ortiz	Mrs. Shepherd, when you were growing up, did your grandparents or elders that were around you, talk about slavery times?	43:17
Madge Rabb Shepherd	I don't recall pretty much of that, them talking about slavery times. I don't know. I can't remember.	43:26
Paul Ortiz	Did Black women face sexual abuse from White men when you were growing up?	43:39
Madge Rabb Shepherd	Yeah.	43:46
Malvie Johnson Giles	Yes.	43:46
Madge Rabb Shepherd	Yeah. Plenty of it.	43:47
Malvie Johnson Giles	Probably not as much as under the slavery I guess.	43:47
Paul Ortiz	But it was still there?	43:59
Ruby Monk Pickens	Yeah.	43:59
Madge Rabb Shepherd	Yeah.	44:00
Ruby Monk Pickens	It's still here now. I mean, they do it but they don't want it known. But now you can—It's even they're afraid to tell it now. It happens right now. Over where I live, it happens all the time. People come over there and they got to know they ain't got no business over there. We got more little half White and half Black kids running around—	44:00
Malvie Johnson Giles	I think it's more promiscuous now.	44:22
Ruby Monk Pickens	Yeah.	44:23
Malvie Johnson Giles	It is not an abuse as such. I think it's the permission to do it.	44:24
Ruby Monk Pickens	They think they're doing something to be able to be with this White person or this White person thinks he's rebelling against his White parents, to be with this Black child.	44:29
Paul Ortiz	Okay.	44:40
Ruby Monk Pickens	You hear them talk about it.	44:41
Malvie Johnson Giles	I guess it's consensual, it's an agreement.	44:42
Ruby Monk Pickens	But they rebelling by doing it.	44:47
Paul Ortiz	What was it like back in the earlier times? Mrs. Shepherd, I think you were about to say something about the abuse that Black women faced. What—	44:50
Madge Rabb Shepherd	Well, it was going on back then. 'Cause I mean, the women who worked for the White [indistinct 00:45:14], the husbands was getting children by them. The same thing is going on.	45:13
Malvie Johnson Giles	I'm going to have to go.	45:27
Paul Ortiz	Okay.	45:28
Malvie Johnson Giles	Is this about over?	45:28
Paul Ortiz	I wonder if when—Mrs. Giles, earlier you were talking about the fact that the opportunities for employment, for Black people, have been very—You got a lot of discrimination in those—	45:36
Malvie Johnson Giles	Yes.	45:57
Paul Ortiz	I wonder if you could tell me about your first jobs and the kinds of discrimination you faced in your first employment.	45:58
Malvie Johnson Giles	Well see, I was raised in Los Angeles, so I did not face discrimination. I faced it when I came home. Not as much, but I did not face discrimination from my jobs in the school system, as principal and whatnot. But here, even when I applied for a job, account administrator, I was denied—	46:05

Malvie Johnson Giles	And I said, "Show me now where we can—" I said, "Anything that you have—" Thank you. "—I could qualify." So I sent some more papers, but when I sent the other papers, then I came out with the score of 95.50. And young people, I tell now, "When you are objected and when you are denied—"	0:03
Ruby Monk Pickens	Don't give up.	0:24
Malvie Johnson Giles	"Go and appeal."	0:25
Ruby Monk Pickens	Mm-hmm.	0:26
Malvie Johnson Giles	That's my message.	0:27
Ruby Monk Pickens	But now, we have Whites against Whites because they like the Blacks. If you got a White person that takes up with this Black one, then the White folks get against them. Happen right there in the workplace where I am. The lady was telling me yesterday, this woman kept her from getting a job. That's awful. I wish I could stay longer, but I have some previous commitments that I just got to do.	0:28
Paul Ortiz	Okay, Mrs. Pickens, well, thank you so much for coming in.	0:55
Ruby Monk Pickens	Oh, it was nice meeting you.	0:56
Paul Ortiz	Thank you.	0:56
Ruby Monk Pickens	I don't know, it must be something about you. Otherwise, you couldn't do this, could you? (laughs) Something about you, that you bring out.	1:01
Paul Ortiz	Thank you so much.	1:13
Ruby Monk Pickens	All right.	1:13
Paul Ortiz	Have a good day.	1:15
Ruby Monk Pickens	Uh-huh.	1:15
Paul Ortiz	Okay, Mrs. Shepherd, I was wondering, earlier you were talking about when your family had to come to Arkansas in very difficult conditions, did your family, once it moved to Arkansas, did you continue to have contact with family members who were still in Louisiana?	1:18
Madge Rabb Shepherd	You said did I still have contacts with some of the folks in Louisiana?	1:40
Paul Ortiz	Yes, ma'am.	1:46
Madge Rabb Shepherd	With kin folk?	1:47
Paul Ortiz	Yes, ma'am.	1:48
Madge Rabb Shepherd	Yeah.	1:54
Paul Ortiz	How would you communicate back and forth?	1:54
Madge Rabb Shepherd	I'm trying to think. I don't know. I guess they would write. Write us sometime, I guess. Anyways, some of them down there, all of my relatives didn't leave, you see? Some of them would get word to us, so every state [indistinct 00:02:23].	2:01
Paul Ortiz	Mrs. Shepherd, Black people who were facing that severe oppression, how would they be able to leave? What was that process of leaving? Did you leave at night? During the day?	2:24
Madge Rabb Shepherd	To my remember, we came on this old Locust train that was running then on the railroad. We came on the train. I don't know how many families was with us, but we weren't in a wagon or buggy or nothing like that, we were on the train. We left on this—what they call it? The old passenger train then.	2:46
Malvie Johnson Giles	So it was a permission to leave?	3:20
Madge Rabb Shepherd	Right.	3:24
Malvie Johnson Giles	And in other words, they were sending you out.	3:25
Madge Rabb Shepherd	Mm-hmm.	3:27
Malvie Johnson Giles	And I think his question relates to if other people wanted to leave and they were not a part of that group being sent out, what method would they choose to escape?	3:28
Madge Rabb Shepherd	Well, they would have to slip away, I guess. They would've to slip away.	3:46
Malvie Johnson Giles	Probably through the night, isn't it?	3:49
Madge Rabb Shepherd	Through the night.	3:51
Paul Ortiz	Would churches help people do that? Black churches?	3:54
Madge Rabb Shepherd	Back then?	3:58
Paul Ortiz	Yes, ma'am.	3:59
Madge Rabb Shepherd	I don't remember. I just don't remember because I was small. I don't remember all of that. I don't remember churches helping us then.	4:04
Malvie Johnson Giles	Uh-huh. See, she said she was six years old, so she was—	4:12
Madge Rabb Shepherd	I don't remember all that.	4:12
Paul Ortiz	Okay. Mrs. Shepherd, what have been the major changes that you've seen within the Black community here during your lifetime?	4:21
Madge Rabb Shepherd	Since I growed up?	4:31
Paul Ortiz	Yes, ma'am.	4:32
Madge Rabb Shepherd	Well, it's much about better among us now. In other words, I sit right here now. Malvie was my neighbor, she sees to me. I'm the oldest, but Malvie sees to me. I got [indistinct 00:04:52]. See, I'm the old lady of the community around in my neighborhood. Most of them, they like me and they sees to me. I have ladies when my daughter can't come in the grocery store, church or whatnot, they see to me.	4:43
Madge Rabb Shepherd	And I have respect for the White now in Magnolia. Lot of them know me. They'll say, "Miss Shepherd—" I have a lady at the bank told me other day, "I hope I can live as long as you and can remember to do things." The respect I got. When the mayor got ready for election, he come to my house. My son was a pastor then here and Junior was the one that helped him to get in office, so we would close with the White in Magnolia.	5:15
Paul Ortiz	Mrs. Giles, what about you? What have been the things that have changed in the Black community? And what have been the things that haven't changed through your life?	6:05
Malvie Johnson Giles	Having come home and Mrs. Madge and her son had established a somewhat relationship with White groups through the ministerial lines and those kind of things. And I had said when I left as a girl and when I got ready to come back, "Please don't let me come back into the same kind of environment that I left as a girl. Let me see a togetherness among people." And because of those groups, we have been able to impact in the White neighborhoods and impact more in the Black neighborhoods, a sense of love and not holding on to things that were inferior to us and things that we were not able to participate in.	6:16
Malvie Johnson Giles	We have seen some changes where Black folk are more freely coming together with Whites. That's a change I've seen here in Magnolia. I have seen another change through the businesses and the chains of commerce and other groups where they welcome Black folk into their meetings and into their concerns. That's good. It was long coming, but that's good.	7:02
Paul Ortiz	What have been the things that haven't changed?	7:32
Malvie Johnson Giles	More open doors for Black employment in key places like in the municipal or the county, the courthouse, the businesses around town. It is not many businesses around town that hire a Black person. That has not changed as much as I would like to see a change.	7:40
Madge Rabb Shepherd	We had one girl come in this month from [indistinct 00:08:12] the courthouse at the tax office.	8:04
Malvie Johnson Giles	See, we can count them on one finger and we ought to be able to count them on these two hands.	8:16
Madge Rabb Shepherd	Yes. And then I noticed, I'll say several places now notices like Walmart and other places will have quite a few working in there now.	8:20
Malvie Johnson Giles	Another thing, I have had a desire to see change in and it hasn't changed that much. I personally have impacted it, but I would love to see the churches mix in that fellowship. Not so much as me being a member of a White church, but that the fellowship and key days that the White and Blacks will come together, That has not moved as fast as I would hope it would do.	8:41
Paul Ortiz	Mrs. Shepherd, throughout your lifetime, what have been the things that have inspired you the most to help you make it through the most difficult experiences of your life?	9:11
Madge Rabb Shepherd	I'm sitting here wondering. What could have been? Well, one thing, some of it is getting acquainted with the White too. That's been real good. But no, in the community, just as Miss Giles told you, we was kind of in the beginning of this, wasn't it—	9:28
Malvie Johnson Giles	Ministerials?	10:05
Madge Rabb Shepherd	I mean the—	10:09
Malvie Johnson Giles	Church [indistinct 00:10:13]?	10:12
Madge Rabb Shepherd	Yeah. We started off in these groups when we were all going meet and come together.	10:13
Malvie Johnson Giles	Uh-huh.	10:21
Madge Rabb Shepherd	Where we would meet in groups, a lot of time when we would go to this lady, Mrs. Sisters, we would go and they would be inviting my husband, but he'd carry me along. A lot of time, we wouldn't even count. And maybe we was set aside and not getting as much respect, but we went on through it.	10:27
Malvie Johnson Giles	She is the widow of a pastor of the largest Black Baptist church in town, then her son became a pastor, so there's been that kind of respect and that kind push forwardness on her part because her husband made some indentations and she has begun to try to keep up those kinds of things.	11:02
Paul Ortiz	What's the name of the church?	11:26
Malvie Johnson Giles	Bethlehem Baptist Church.	11:27
Paul Ortiz	Bethlehem Baptist Church. Mrs. Giles, what about you, ma'am? What have been the things that have inspired you through your most difficult struggles?	11:31
Malvie Johnson Giles	Oh, I just thought of something else before I get into this question. I knew I had to refresh me what you just asked me, but something else that has not changed. And that is, even though integration has come about, when I came home, I cried when I saw on the campus, a Black group standing over here and a White group standing over there. And then as a singer and as a traveler, I go to the schools and share, I see the Black sitting on one row and the White sitting on one row—and in the '90s!	11:39
Malvie Johnson Giles	And so, I would love to see, if you're going to integrate, then do it. But you can't integrate the heart. And so, when I see the campuses, it's heart rending to see the division on campus. But one thing inspires me now. When I go on the campus and when I go in the classrooms, I can pull them together because I tell them of some of the things that I have come through and that in 1990 we ought see a different picture. And as young people, you can make difference. And that's a challenge I get. If it's ever going to change, you can change it.	12:16

Item Info

Title:

Malvie Giles (primary interviewee), Ruby Pickens, and Madge Shepherd interview recording, 1995 July 21

Permalink:

https://idn.duke.edu/ark:/87924/r4154rx95

Date:

July 21, 1995

Creator:

Contributor:

Ortiz, Paul

Description:

Name: Malvie Johnson Giles; Date of birth: 1924-07-29; Place of birth: Magnolia, AR; Occupation: educator; agriculture; farmer; Residence: Magnolia, AR. Name: Ruby Monk Pickens; Date of birth: unknown; Place of birth: McNeil, AR; Occupation: educator; agriculture; farmer; Residence: Magnolia, AR. Name: Madge Shepherd; Date of birth: unknown; Place of birth: Homer, LA; Occupation: housewife; laundry worker; agriculture; Residence: Magnolia, AR
Informant ID: 1055;Informant ID: 1057;Informant ID: 1056; interviewed by: Paul Ortiz.

Identifier:

RL00170-CS-0281
a4d2c8e2-5589-4cd5-ade6-7cac270f296d
behindtheveil
a291d762-baf4-455c-840b-463f1aa30cb8
ark:/87924/r4154rx95
a291d762-baf4-455c-840b-463f1aa30cb8

Digital Collection:

Behind the Veil

Source Collection:

Behind the Veil: Documenting African American Life in the Jim Crow South interviews, photographs, and project records, circa 1864-2011, bulk 1990-2004

Related Resources:

See below

Location:

Format:

Language:

English

Occupation:

Provenance:

The David M. Rubenstein Rare Book and Manuscript Library acquired the Records of the Behind the Veil Oral History Project from the Duke University Center for Documentary Studies in 1997, 1998, 2000, and 2002.

Rights:

Limited Re-Use

CC BY-NC 4.0

Rights Note:

Copyright for content created by the Behind the Veil project is held by Duke University and made available to the public using a Creative Commons Attribution / Non-commercial (CC-BY-NC) license.

Series:

Type:

Sound

Sponsor:

Sponsor this Digital Collection

Malvie Giles (primary interviewee), Ruby Pickens, and Madge Shepherd interview recording, 1995 July 21

Transcript

Item Info

1. Malvie Giles, Ruby Pickens, and Madge Shepherd administrative file, 1995

John Hope Franklin Research Center

More Info & Options

Transcript

Item Info

Related Items

John Hope Franklin Research Center

More Info & Options