Frank Martin II interview recording, 1994 July 14
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| Charles Houston | State your name. | 0:01 |
| Frank Cleveland Martin, II | So this is the testing 1, 2, 3 again, and we're on. All right. I'm Frank Martin. My birthdate is August 17th, 1954. So I was born the year of Brown versus the Board of Education decision. | 0:03 |
| Charles Houston | We're going to be talking today about your family's history, which you've been working on— | 0:18 |
| Frank Cleveland Martin, II | Right. | 0:23 |
| Charles Houston | —For quite a while. | 0:23 |
| Frank Cleveland Martin, II | Well, I wasn't sure exactly where to start, so maybe I should try and begin with how I became interested in my family history. The reason I'm interested in my family history, or as interested as I am, is because my great-aunt who I'm going to talk to a little bit about, was the family historian. Interruption. | 0:25 |
| Speaker 1 | You got a red— | 0:51 |
| Frank Cleveland Martin, II | We'll probably have a lot of interruptions because it gets very busy whenever we're never try to do anything. But the reason I became so interested in who the family was as a group is because my great-aunt used to tell me stories about her girlhood. About her father, about even her great-grandmother whom she knew, who died at the age of 115 was the story she told me. Unfortunately, I don't remember the name of my—That was my great-great-great-grandmother because it was my great-aunts great-grandmother, but that would date the family back to being in this country probably to the late 1790s, at least, because my great-grandfather was born in 1853. Then if you go back, it would only take, what? Two, maybe three generations— | 0:51 |
| Charles Houston | To get back to 18th. | 1:54 |
| Frank Cleveland Martin, II | Right. So I haven't had an opportunity to really research the records to find out exactly the location of those very ancient ancestors. But I do know that my great-grandfather was born in Fairfield County and as it was, apparently his mother, Susan Kelly, who was born a slave, evidently she ran away with him. The family story is, and this family story comes from my Aunt Nana, I'll write that down so you know her name. | 1:55 |
| Frank Cleveland Martin, II | Actually, I know Aunt Nana's property, I'd have to call my cousin Isabelle to find out. But she was Nana Kelly, that's what she was born. I can't remember her married name. She was my great-grandfather's half sister. But she would tell my cousin Isabelle, who is Isabelle Martin Pinkney, whom we'll have reference to, who is now the family matriarch because she's about 75. So it makes her one of the older female relatives. Aunt Nana would tell a cousin Isabelle about how great-great-grandma Kelly ran away with my great-grandfather that Susan Kelly, whose photograph I have, was born a slave. | 2:28 |
| Frank Cleveland Martin, II | Evidently she'd had other children, I think by an African American who may have been enslaved as well. Those children were sold away from her. So I think my great-grandfather was at least her third child and she was a skilled slave who lived in the house with her master. She was a seamstress. Evidently, when my great-grandfather was born, she decided that she was not going to tolerate having any more of her children sold away from her. She made a decision to break for freedom. | 3:30 |
| Frank Cleveland Martin, II | She strapped him to her back, ran away and crossed over from Fairfield County, I think into Kershaw County, swimming across the watery river. The way the story was told to me, there were alligators present in the river and she had to swim against the current with her infant strapped to her back. Now evidently—Excuse me, sorry. A lot of humidity in here so I sneeze from the dust. But evidently, she still continued the relationship with her former master who knew my great-grandfather and even passed property on to him in that upstate region, where a part of the family still lives in the area around Elgin. | 4:13 |
| Frank Cleveland Martin, II | Now, I haven't gone to the courthouse in Fairfield County to try and get all the exact documentation of that, but everything so far that I've traced, I've found to be verified in documents. The name of my great-grandmother, of course is on the death certificate. The name of the man to whom she was a concubine, Jimmy or James Martin, is also on my great-grandfather's death certificate. He's also listed in the census of—Let's see here. It was after the census 18, must have been 1817, as a mulatto. I think, which he was in Kershaw County in that census, if I recall. But this is a very cursory look through the information. | 5:03 |
| Charles Houston | Okay. I'm not sure I understand. Now your great-grandfather— | 5:58 |
| Frank Cleveland Martin, II | Frank Martin. Frank Mason Martin was my great-grandfather. He's the son of Susan Kelly. | 6:05 |
| Charles Houston | Of Susan and Jimmy. | 6:09 |
| Frank Cleveland Martin, II | Right. | 6:10 |
| Charles Houston | So Jimmy is your great-great-grandfather? | 6:10 |
| Frank Cleveland Martin, II | Right. And he was White. | 6:13 |
| Charles Houston | He was White, okay. And Frank was White. | 6:15 |
| Frank Cleveland Martin, II | All right. I'll just write that Jimmy Martin is the father of Frank Mason Martin. Now my name is Frank Cleveland Martin, as is my father's name, but we are named for my great-grandfather who is Frank Mason Martin. So I'm the third Frank, I'm the second Frank— | 6:29 |
| Charles Houston | From Cleveland? | 6:54 |
| Frank Cleveland Martin, II | Right. So that's how that worked out. | 6:55 |
| Charles Houston | Your great-great-grandfather Jimmy Martin had been the owner of Susan— | 7:00 |
| Frank Cleveland Martin, II | Susan Kelly. Now the names they also in our family tend to repeat the names and family names are Elijah James, Edward, Frank, and my great-grandfather's son was also a James, Jimmy David Martin. He was a master builder. I have some information on him and some of the buildings that he probably constructed. This was his funeral oration. He contributed to—Let's see. Well, he helped construct Emmanuel Methodist Church, which was Emmanuel Methodist Episcopal Church originally, and now is the United Methodist Church. | 7:05 |
| Frank Cleveland Martin, II | Although I believe my great-grandfather, Frank Martin, started out as a Presbyterian. He converted to Methodism later on. I haven't again had an opportunity to go to try and find the church records to find out when he was baptized and all of that. If they still exist, I could probably find that. Because there is a family church located in Elgin where a large number of our relatives are buried, but I think it is Methodist. I don't think it's Presbyterian, but I haven't gone to verify that yet. I just recently—It takes a lot of time to do this. | 7:48 |
| Charles Houston | Oh, sure. | 8:24 |
| Frank Cleveland Martin, II | Let's see. Now what's unusual I think about our family is the fact that we have photographs of relatives dating back to Susan Kelly who would've been born at least 20 or 30 years before 1853 when my great-grandfather was born. He was born in 1853, which is recorded in our family Bible, which my father still has. It's also, I suppose, unusual in that we had family members who could read and write. So they kept records. I have the tax documents dating to 18—I guess the earliest one must be in the 1880s, maybe 1881. 18, what is this? 1898. 1897. I believe I saw one that was dated to 18—To the 1880s. Here's one, 1880. This was the property tax document. I think that is only what? $2 on some property in Kershaw County. It's dated 1880 and this is my great-grandfather's. Now the other thing that was interesting is when he married, he married Ellen Graves who was another mulatto, and she had property of her own. | 8:28 |
| Frank Cleveland Martin, II | We also have tax documents for properties that she was paying taxes on property. The reason they were paying the taxes was so that they could vote because you had to be a landowner in South Carolina at that time to be able to vote. I have these family documents, presumably xeroxes and other things like, I think my great-uncle's high school enrollment certificates and just a lot of other papers that have been saved from the family's early history. I'll go into that later. We also have a photograph of the mother of Ellen Graves and her mother was Martha Graves. I don't really have any specific information on the status of Martha Graves. I assume she was a slave, but my great-aunt never said that her mother's mother was a slave. I do believe that Ellen Grieves was illegitimate because on her death certificate, her father's name is listed as Hilliard Bell, whom I haven't really begun to research information on. | 10:17 |
| Charles Houston | I have a question about Susan Kelly and Jimmy Martin's relationship. She crossed from the county where he lived, into another but she was still in South Carolina. | 11:39 |
| Frank Cleveland Martin, II | She remain in South Carolina. He did not pursue her. He did not have her arrested. She lived under the protection of a White woman whose name I don't have. She's only referred to as the White woman in the family story. She practiced her craft as a seamstress for part of her livelihood. She was partially supported by James or Jimmy Martin. So unfortunately, I wasn't old enough to ask. I knew my aunt Anna, she died when she was 96, so she was almost 100 years old when I knew her. But I didn't have at that time the cognizance to really talk to her extensively about what was going on. Let me see what else is here that we might look at. Now the family photographs, I guess the most unusual thing I have. | 11:53 |
| Speaker 1 | Beautiful photographs. | 12:52 |
| Frank Cleveland Martin, II | Photographs of my great aunt. This is Anna J. Martin Murray. Anna Josephine Martin Murray, she is the daughter of Frank Mason Martin and Ellen Graves Martin. She was something of a women's organizer, motivational speaker, educator. She organized the Mother's Clubs of Sumter County. She's a lifelong educator and I have an essay that she wrote on the topic of a womanhood that I sent copies of to my sisters. I have it in her long hand, I have it written out. But I also, I transcribed it so that it could be readable. I can probably give you xeroxes of these photographs. That's the essay transcribed. I should have organized this better. But apparently there was quite a bit of talent in the family. I also would hear many stories of my great-uncle, Palmer Martin, who published a song, or at least I have one copy of one of the songs he published. He was a poet composer, and this was published in 1918. | 12:54 |
| Frank Cleveland Martin, II | He's noted on the publication of the South Carolina FEMA Jubilee Songster. The price given for the flyer for the handout is only 10 cents, but it's worth $100 it says. So he didn't have a modesty problem, I guess, in his awareness of his poetry. But he also was an artist. Although I have not yet, I have to go back to our family property and look through some of the old trunks in barns and see if there are any drawings of his on the property. I only know him as an artist by reputation because my great-aunt would always tell me how he could sit down and draw anybody. This predisposition toward art and design was, I guess, part of the family heritage, because as I said, my great uncle James David Martin, who was Jimmy Martin, who I used to call Uncle Shug because everybody had a nickname in the south, was a master builder. He helped build our church. He was a builder of houses in Sumter County. | 14:18 |
| Frank Cleveland Martin, II | I think he contributed to the building of Morris College, I think that was mentioned and to various churches in the Sumter County area. I'm going to try and do some research on structures he built because his son, Palmer Martin, again, the names stayed in the family. His brother was Palmer, so his son is also Palmer. There's another master builder and he would have helped Uncle Jimmy build some of the houses. So I'm going to try and document if I can, some of the houses in Sumter that he constructed and designed. | 15:16 |
| Charles Houston | Was Uncle Jimmy, the son of Frank? | 15:48 |
| Frank Cleveland Martin, II | He's Frank and Ellen. | 15:50 |
| Charles Houston | And Ellen. | 15:51 |
| Frank Cleveland Martin, II | Right. | 15:52 |
| Charles Houston | He was there for Anna's brother? | 15:52 |
| Frank Cleveland Martin, II | Right. Now I don't know exactly how many children Frank and Ellen had. Now, Frank Martin had a family before he married Ellen Graves. I could find out the name of his first wife because my cousin Isabelle, is the daughter of the son from the first marriage. The sons from the first marriage were Wesley—Gosh, I can't remember the other name. My uncle Wes—Well, all right, like I said, I didn't bring all the information. I would have to go and check the family Bible. Although the family Bible lists the family members from the second marriage because I think the first entries are by my great-grandmother Ellen. She lists her own children. She doesn't really list the children from the first marriage who were living separate from the second family too. Because the first family stayed in the Kershaw County area where I showed you that tax document. The family with Ellen Graves Martin moved first to Swimming Pins in Sumter County and then to the family property. We have about—There's about 100, 10 or 12 years ago. | 15:54 |
| Charles Houston | What county was the family property in? | 17:19 |
| Frank Cleveland Martin, II | The family property now, well, their family property's both in Kershaw, Richland Counties and in Sumter County. See, I'm saying Kershaw, Richland because the property's out in the country and I'm not sure of the county where the county lines connect. This is all work I have to do to find out, to get a survey of exactly where the properties were and how long they were held, respectively. There are still, as I said, family members living on these properties. So I just have to go back and document them. | 17:21 |
| Charles Houston | Sure. No, I can imagine that's an— | 17:59 |
| Frank Cleveland Martin, II | Well I just got here three years ago and I'm dealing with this new job and curating. I've got such a busy schedule, but this is a great help to me. | 18:01 |
| Charles Houston | But the property that your great-great-grandfather Jimmy Martin owned was in Fairfield? | 18:12 |
| Frank Cleveland Martin, II | Right. | 18:24 |
| Charles Houston | When your great-great-grandmother left, she went to Kershaw County? | 18:27 |
| Frank Cleveland Martin, II | Right. She crossed in Kershaw. | 18:34 |
| Charles Houston | The grant then to your great-grandfather, Frank, the grant of land to him from his father Jimmy, probably was in Kershaw County, or? | 18:37 |
| Frank Cleveland Martin, II | I think he probably helped, well, he was helping sustain her in Kershaw County. The property that he was helping sustain my great-great-grandmother, Susan in Kershaw County. So the property, although the family story is that my great-grandfather, Frank Mason Martin greatly resented his father for not marrying his mother, which I think may have been illegal. Well, South Carolina was one of the few states where interracial marriages were permitted. So I haven't been able to find out if he already had a wife and she was someone he was just interested in, or if he was unmarried and she was essentially his spouse, just was never legalized. That's still information I haven't found. I also need to check to see if there's a will. But I understand that Jimmy, my great-great-grandmother, Jimmy Martin helped sustain that family and helped them acquire the property that they lived on. | 18:49 |
| Charles Houston | Okay. He also devised to his son, Frank, his own property. | 19:51 |
| Frank Cleveland Martin, II | Well, he would've been— | 20:00 |
| Charles Houston | —Before he died. | 20:01 |
| Frank Cleveland Martin, II | He would've been the person as a slave, Susan Kelly wouldn't have been able to acquire property. So he would've been the person who would've, well, I guess acquired the property and then seated it to his son. So where the family would've been living, where Wesley and the other two sons that I can't remember the names of right now, would've been living and where their descendants still live in that Kershaw, Fairfield. | 20:01 |
| Frank Cleveland Martin, II | See, those counties merged together at a point just below Camden and that's where part of our family is from the Kershaw, Fairfield, Richland, I think Sumter, all merged together at that point. As an example of what was—Well, another part of the family legend is that Frank Mason Martin fought a dual at the town of Boykin. Boykin is in Kershaw County. The fact that he fought the dual there suggests he must have been living near Elgin or Boykin at the time. It is just within the border of where three counties meet. So that's why it's very difficult to figure out exactly where all these properties were. | 20:30 |
| Charles Houston | But we're talking about a geographic area very close to where we are. | 21:24 |
| Frank Cleveland Martin, II | Close to Sumter, right. | 21:30 |
| Charles Houston | Close but not long. | 21:32 |
| Frank Cleveland Martin, II | Well Sumter's 60 miles from here and this property is about—Let's see, I guess it's 20, 40 minutes away from there. It's 40 to 60 miles from Sumter. But the family legend is, well the story that my father tells, he knows the site of the store in front of which this dual was fought with fists. Because my grandfather, Eddie Martin, who I hadn't mentioned yet, my father's father would take my father to this site and tell him about the battle his father fought. Because the man he had the dual with was a White man who died from his wounds about a week later. So I haven't found a newspaper account for that. I haven't found any hospital records, but I was going to try and see if I can verify it now. I don't know if it was even reported or if there's a police report that would date from that time. | 21:33 |
| Charles Houston | Do you know what the issue was? | 22:32 |
| Frank Cleveland Martin, II | I don't know what the issue was. I think maybe he was insulted. I do know that my great-grandfather had a terrible temper. He was extremely independent. He was extremely intelligent and he was the kind of person who would not tolerate any affront or injustice or he would not take things sitting down. He's not that kind of person. That's another family trait where the family has tended to be very independent. No, I'm the first member of my family to work—Oh no, that's not true. I was going to say it. I was the first member to work, to not be independently employed because I work for an institution, although I have a great deal of autonomy in my position here. Frank Mason Martin was an entrepreneur. He had a restaurant, he owned farm properties. He ran his own business as did my grandfather and as does my father. But it's because my father couldn't work for other people. They are very headstrong people, Martin, they tend to be— | 22:35 |
| Frank Cleveland Martin, II | It's a trait both my sisters exhibit, they're all very headstrong people. Again, it's part of the family description that the Martins are described as bossy. That's what my mother always—We have a problem there. You're just like this Martin. Anyway, which is interesting and fun. They also tend to be eccentric and creative. Let's see, there is a bit toward a study within the family. My uncle is dean at Purview College, he's an embryologist. He's Dr. Edward Martin. My aunt, my father sister is a librarian, and I'm a museum curator. My younger sister's in graduate school for psychology. So I don't know, we all tend to—I guess we have professional interests on the whole, although the family was grounded in agriculture originally. But like I said, Frank Mason Martin did have a business of his own, a restaurant in downtown Sumter. Ellen Graves Martin managed the farm. She did the accounting for the farm and managed the properties. | 23:44 |
| Frank Cleveland Martin, II | They very much operated as a partnership. She got the crops in and harvested everything, he ran the restaurant. That independence among the women in the family was very marked and all the girls went to college. Now, the boys were not encouraged to go to college among the earlier generation, the generation of my grandfather. Because Frank Mason Martin, who had evidently taught himself most of how to read and write, how to manage his business, felt that the boys should be able to learn without the benefit of having to go to school extensively. They should study on their own as he had studied himself. That expectation was, I guess, imposed upon my grandfather, who originally wanted to be a doctor, who ended up being a local veterinarian through his own study. But he never had any certification or anything. But he was respected as people would bring their animals to him. I guess he was respected as animal husbandry. | 25:06 |
| Charles Houston | So was Eddie a farmer then? | 26:20 |
| Frank Cleveland Martin, II | He was a farmer. He also had some side businesses. He organized trips and tours. He had a bus, he would take people to the beach in the summertime. He also organized a business, a moving business where he packed people up and moved their possessions around, which allowed him to get around the state quite a lot. He knew a great many people. He was a very well respected man when he died. | 26:22 |
| Charles Houston | Do you know when he was born approximately? Eddie Martin. | 26:55 |
| Frank Cleveland Martin, II | Grandfather. Oh, it's in the family Bible. I think it would've been—Let's see. My great-aunt was the eldest. She was born in 1884, and I concentrated again more on her because she's the one who used to tell me most of the stories. So Anna Josephine Martin Murray was her married name, was born in 1884. There are several intermediating children. I believe my grandfather was the second to the youngest. The youngest was Jimmy Martin, my great-uncle. So I think he was born about 1896. | 26:59 |
| Charles Houston | Okay. Approximately the mid 1890s. | 27:34 |
| Frank Cleveland Martin, II | Mid to late 1890s. It's written in the family Bible, I just don't remember the date. | 27:42 |
| Charles Houston | Okay. Your great-grandfather, Frank Mason, would've been born in the, you said— | 27:54 |
| Frank Cleveland Martin, II | He was born in 1853, is the date recorded in the family Bible. | 28:03 |
| Charles Houston | Okay. | 28:06 |
| Frank Cleveland Martin, II | Now let's see what else is here. | 28:12 |
| Charles Houston | Do you have pictures of Frank Mason? | 28:18 |
| Frank Cleveland Martin, II | I have pictures of—Well, first, this is a picture of Susan Kelly, who is the mother of Frank Mason Martin. This is Martha Graves. Oh, I've got a— | 28:21 |
| Charles Houston | Okay. Yeah, it's— | 28:37 |
| Frank Cleveland Martin, II | Who is the mother of Ellen Graves Martin. Now I guess we should— | 28:40 |
| Charles Houston | Yeah, we should stop. | 28:48 |
| Frank Cleveland Martin, II | Break here. | 28:49 |
| Charles Houston | Looking over what we talked about earlier, I'm curious to know whether you know anything about the relationship between your fore bearers and their White relatives? Was the relationship broken or was it broken between Jimmy and Jimmy Martin and your great-great-grandmother? Was that the only relationship or did there continue to be a parallel in the family's relationship between— | 28:56 |
| Frank Cleveland Martin, II | Between other White relatives? Between the generation beyond Jimmy? | 29:40 |
| Charles Houston | Right. | 29:45 |
| Frank Cleveland Martin, II | And my grandfather, my great-grandfather? I don't know very much about those relationships. I do know that my great-grandfather and his father had an ongoing relationship. I do know he was very angry with his father for not marrying his mother and assigning him a second class status. Now as to whether or not he had White siblings with whom he was competing for property, or whether or not he had any relationships with his father's family, I don't have any knowledge of that. | 29:46 |
| Frank Cleveland Martin, II | From our family's point of view, they've blocked most of the information in association with the White family, I guess because of the racial segregation as part of the South's history. I don't know if those White relatives would have, besides the direct link with Jimmy Martin, if they would have acknowledged the illegitimate offspring of that son. So again, I have to go and look into these senses to find out who Jimmy Martin's relatives are and try and find his history. Now I know all the Martins are concentrated in Fairfield County around Waynesboro and Jenkinsville. There have been several Martin family reunions of peoples who may indeed be related to me. | 30:19 |
| Frank Cleveland Martin, II | I just don't know the connections. I don't know exactly how all of them—But my father always tells me about all the Martins up in that area in Fairfield County. He said there are places where you can go and you just find nothing but Martins. I have lots of photographs of relatives, and some of our relatives still look like Caucasians, are indiscernible from Caucasian, especially their children from my uncle, Elijah's. I think Elijah was one of the—No, he's one of the younger brothers. But Elijah was fair and his wife was also fair. Their children were all very fair, as was the case for the most part with his father and mother, since both of them were mulatto. Now the other male members of the family sometimes marry women with darker complexions. So the family varies, is quite variable now in my generation and in generations before. | 31:12 |
| Charles Houston | Did your family disperse at all? Did it stay concentrated pretty much in the Fairfield area? Are you aware of family members migrating from the countryside to urban areas in South Carolina or outside the state to other areas? And if so, do you have recall any stories about those migrations, why they left and when they left and so on? | 32:32 |
| Frank Cleveland Martin, II | Well, we have family in Washington where my Aunt Mude lives and my Aunt Hattie had moved to Washington as well. My father and I'm not even sure if my Aunt Mude is still alive. My sister lived with her for a while when she worked in Washington shortly after she graduated from Hampton. As far as I know, they're still there. | 33:00 |
| Charles Houston | Mooda is M-O-O-D-A? | 33:25 |
| Frank Cleveland Martin, II | I'm not sure how to spell her name. I think maybe M-U-D-E. | 33:27 |
| Charles Houston | Okay. | 33:33 |
| Frank Cleveland Martin, II | I don't know if that's an abbreviation for another name, I've just heard her referred to as Aunt Mude. I'm not even sure exactly how she's related. I think for some reason she probably is on my great-grandmother's side, as opposed to the Martin side. I know we have relatives in Chicago because one of the daughters of one of my cousins appeared in Jet Magazine on as a model on one of those pages. Well, the model of the month that the Beefcake girl, whatever. I remember the cousins calling and writing and telling us about that. But I'm not sure. They migrated primarily, I think as a result of my cousin having been involved in the armed forces, that took him away from South Carolina. I have cousins in Texas because that's where my uncle lives. Well, Prairie View outside of Houston. | 33:33 |
| Charles Houston | These are all relatively recent? | 34:40 |
| Frank Cleveland Martin, II | These are relatively recent. | 34:42 |
| Charles Houston | Mid 20th century rather than— | 34:43 |
| Frank Cleveland Martin, II | 1950s. Before that, I can't remember, I think it was my Uncle Benjamin who left to go to Philadelphia. I do know we have some relatives in Philadelphia, but I haven't pursued that. That's why I need to speak with my cousin, Isabelle. I also have relatives in Maryland, the daughters of—Because I cannot remember this moment right now, exactly how many children Frank Mason Martin had in his second marriage with Ellen Graves. Well, I can give the names I can remember. Anna Josephine Martin Murray was my great-aunt, was the first child. I know there was Benjamin, Elijah, Jimmy or James, Eddie, Hattie, and Maddie. I think all those children grew to adulthood. I don't know how many that is. There were three or four others, some of whom died earlier. They're in the family Bible. | 34:49 |
| Charles Houston | This is the same Hattie then, who is in Washington? | 36:09 |
| Frank Cleveland Martin, II | Who was in Washington. She's dead. She died in the 1950s. She died of the year I was born in 1954. But yes, Hattie and Maddie. Harriet and what's Hattie's name? I don't remember what the proper name was. But again, those are names that recur in the family several times. | 36:13 |
| Charles Houston | I know we're running short on time and I'd like to do two things. I may have to ask you if I can continue this at another time. | 36:40 |
| Frank Cleveland Martin, II | Sure. | 36:53 |
| Charles Houston | The two things are, I think I mentioned the family biography form that I need to fill out. | 36:55 |
| Frank Cleveland Martin, II | Oh, okay. | 37:00 |
| Charles Houston | And with your help, it's a form that we fill out on all interviewees for purposes, I suppose, of historical location. You want to find out who's talking to be able to place them in a genealogical context. The other thing that I think would be very useful, because your photographs are so interesting, is perhaps to sit down on tape and go through some of the photographs and just to talk about each of the photographs so that there's a record. | 37:01 |
| Frank Cleveland Martin, II | All right. | 37:40 |
| Charles Houston | Description for each— | 37:40 |
| Frank Cleveland Martin, II | Each person. | 37:43 |
| Charles Houston | —Person. But I'm reluctant to start that now. So maybe we could use the balance of the time, I'll stop this for a second so I can go through the bio. | 37:43 |
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