Mary Shipp interview recording, 1994 June 28

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Tunga White	Ms. Shipp, do you remember your grandparents?	0:04
Mary Shipp	Yes, very well.	0:07
Tunga White	Did they live near and your family or where were they from?	0:11
Mary Shipp	They lived there. My family, we lived out on a farm. And my grandmother lived in the closest town. So we were very much together.	0:17
Tunga White	Now was this your maternal grandmother or your paternal?	0:26
Mary Shipp	Maternal grandmother. I didn't know my paternal grandparents.	0:30
Tunga White	Now where were you born? Where were you raised in?	0:37
Mary Shipp	I was born in Wheeler County, Georgia. That's way down Mill, Georgia, near Macon, Georgia. Out on a farm. And we owned that farm. However, it had been in my grandfather, my maternal grandparents. It was their farm. And my dad was the one who was left to see after the farm and we lived on that farm until I was 10 years old.	0:40
Tunga White	Now was he the oldest son?	1:08
Mary Shipp	No, he wasn't the oldest son. He was a middle son. But the other sons, his other brothers hated the South. They hated that life. So they left the farm and went to Detroit and left him there with it.	1:10
Tunga White	You said they hated the South, and they moved to Detroit. Now around what age would you say that they probably left? As young men?	1:27
Mary Shipp	As young men. Probably in their 20s.	1:34
Tunga White	Why Detroit? Why do you think they went to Detroit?	1:39
Mary Shipp	I really don't know. I don't know whether it was someone up there because they went, and they got good jobs. Because I remember my uncle worked for an automobile. I don't know if it was Ford or Chevrolet. Anyway, he got a job and shortly after that, his brother went up there with him. And they worked with these companies until they passed.	1:42
Tunga White	Now why do you think your father opted to stay in the South as opposed to move like his brothers did up North?	2:07
Mary Shipp	Well, my father was a farmer at heart. He didn't take advantage of being a farmer because it was hard. It was hard work. And then you didn't make a whole lot of money. And many times at the end of the season, there would not be money. And he had to go to his neighbors, which were White farmers, to borrow money and to do certain things. But he was a farmer at heart. He would've never left there because he loved that farm. But it didn't work for him. It didn't work for us. And when I was 10 years old, we worked in the field a whole lot picking cotton and it got to the place where we had to go to the people surround us that was White and pick cotton to survive. Because many times, we just didn't make money enough that we had a large plantation. And finally, we lost it.	2:14
Mary Shipp	That's the reason my daddy died. And every year, he'd borrow money. And every year, he'd borrow money. So when he died, we found out that the guy he was borrowing money from had a lean on it. It was my uncles in the North wanted to redeem it, but it was so far in debt. And see, this was one of the things that happened to the Black farmer. And now they almost extinct and especially in the South, is that it was hard to make it as a Black farmer because many of the things that was available to White farmers were not available to Black farmers. And as a result, and then we had to go work on their farms, and then we had to come back and work on ours to survive. So after my father died, my mom was still quite young. We had five children. And so we went to live with my grandmother in McRae, which was 10 miles away from where we had grown up.	3:10
Tunga White	Now how many acres was on your family farm?	4:06
Mary Shipp	Maybe a hundred acres or more.	4:09
Tunga White	And you said it was cotton.	4:12
Mary Shipp	Everything. We had cotton and corn. We had everything out there. We had gardens and—Well, just anything that you can name that they planted. And peanut. It was just everything on the farm. But as I said many times, my dad didn't—It didn't work for him and what have you. Maybe he didn't have the money to get the fertilizer that was needed or whatnot. There were not allotments like it is now. I don't know the details because I was so small. I hated that farm religiously.	4:15
Tunga White	And why did you hate the harm so much?	4:47
Mary Shipp	It was hard. Come to think of, it was hard for us. We lived in that old house and you can look up—During that time, that was one of the better houses they had. But it was no ceilings. And you looked through the floor. You had lamp lights. And it was no stores nearby. And we had to walk five miles to church. And we had to walk five miles to school. And the bus would pass by. So we couldn't ride the bus. The bus would pass by us and they would throw things out the bus at us.	4:50
Tunga White	Things like what?	5:26
Mary Shipp	Like bricks or bottles. Sometimes urine. What have you. We walking on, sometimes we'd have to go jump over the fence. We'd get to school many times and especially it was cold. It was no fire there. We had a wonderful teacher though. We carried our little bag lunches and whatnot. And it was so hard. I don't even like to recall it. But it was a part of my life. And my grandma was the person that was our salvation. She walked from McRae out there bringing us things and whatnot. And when we moved from out on the farm and went to live with my grandma, which was in McRae, and things was a little bit better.	5:28
Mary Shipp	But we came from out in the rural and my sister—We had cows and hogs and mules and stuff. But anyway, I think mom sold everything but the mule. And my sister rode to town on the mule. And the other children in the city saw her doing that. So we were labeled because they had seen my sister riding on that mule. And even as we got there and entered school, it was just, we were outsiders.	6:08
Mary Shipp	My sister was the one who defended us all. The one that rode the mul, she was the one defended us all. But even we had to get there, we had to get adjusted to the school. And as I said, we were from the rural. And it was just hard. We were in this same—Well it was called First Twin City Seminary because at one time, they didn't have public school for Blacks down in. And as I said, that's in Mill, Georgia, where I was reared at that time.	6:37
Tunga White	This is after you moved from the family farm?	7:14
Mary Shipp	Yes.	7:14
Tunga White	You attended Twin [crosstalk 00:07:15] Seminary.	7:14
Mary Shipp	Twin City Seminary.	7:14
Tunga White	Okay. Now prior to this, when you were in the country, what school did you attend while—	7:18
Mary Shipp	I think it was Erick Public School. It was one room. Because I remember when my sister went to school, I had to go to school with her because my mom had to go to the field. She was in first grade. And when we got promoted, I got promoted too because I learned everything she learned.	7:22
Tunga White	She did, uh-huh.	7:44
Mary Shipp	So we graduated from high school together.	7:44
Tunga White	And you said you have four brothers and sisters?	7:46
Mary Shipp	I have four sisters and one brother.	7:49
Tunga White	Now you said your mother help your father do field work?	7:57
Mary Shipp	Yes.	8:01
Tunga White	And you all helped your parents do work.	8:02
Mary Shipp	Sure.	8:05
Tunga White	Now what kind of jobs did you all do out in the field?	8:05
Mary Shipp	Pick cotton, gather peanuts, what have you. You had your vegetables too. You had things like tomatoes and orca and corn and all of that. All of that had to be gathered up and brought up. Potatoes, sweet potatoes. And it was something just to do all the time on the farm as far as, even in the winter time, even though the harvest was in, they would plant little gardens and we sometimes, we'd have a big harvest in the winter time with greens and stuff. Even though it was cold. I don't think it was as cold then as it is now.	8:08
Tunga White	Now, did your working in the fields affect your school attendance?	8:43
Mary Shipp	No, not really. The only way it affected our school attendance—Well no, because we went to school. But when it was raining or something like that, we couldn't go to school. That's the only thing that's affected. Because my mama, she believed in education. Well my dad did too. He always said, "You children need to get an education." They believed in the church. "And y'all go to church." We'd walk to church. I remember when my dad got a little Model T Ford, we were so happy about it. And half the time, it wouldn't run. But when it did, we'd get a chance to go to church. And many times on Saturday nights, we didn't understand. Dad would go to town. He wouldn't come back till Sunday morning. We didn't really know what was going on. But that was the only time—back in that time, that's what a lot of men did.	8:52
Tunga White	Really?	9:40
Mary Shipp	Yeah. They would leave. They would work all the week and then they would leave home and they would go to town. And they would just get back home Sunday morning sometimes for whatever reason. We didn't understand that. Because my mom, she used to say—we would hear her say little things. And I remember my brother repeated it because she would always say, "I don't understand how could he leave out here every Saturday night. Leave us here." Well he'd be going in town sometimes to get some grocery and what have you. But he'd make it back Sunday morning most time.	9:41
Tunga White	So your mother's attitude towards this in front of the children was—?	10:12
Mary Shipp	Well, she never did say a whole lot. But from time to time, because maybe she'd be making biscuits or looking to see whether they had this or what have you. And she was frustrated. We didn't know what was happening. But she said things like, "I don't know why your daddy do this. And I don't know why your daddy do that." But she never really talked about it. That's why we didn't really understand. And well, the time that he—well, he went to town that night, he had a stroke. And so we all went over there and he passed. And he was at my grandma's house when he passed. And then after we got everything ready out there on that farm, then we went to town to live with grandma. And that was the beginning of a new life for us. She was a dear, dear lady.	10:18
Mary Shipp	She lived to be 107 years old. I kept her. She died in 1989. Because that's my husband. He died in '87. And she died in '89. And she could tell you, she just went to second grade. Never got a chance, she said, to really go to school. But she was a terrific lady. She worked for a judge there most of her life and she couldn't read and write. But she was educated. Because at many times, she reared his children. So she would stay overnight with them and whatnot. And she had all the cliches of being of what they were. The only thing, she was Black. She didn't get no money because in her final days, there was no social security for her, even all those years that she worked. And even when we went to live with her, she didn't have a nice house. She didn't have a fine house, but it was clean. You could eat off the floors.	11:04
Mary Shipp	That was grandma. And she was a lady who loved education. We had to go to school. We had to go to school and we had to go to church. And when we finished high school, all of us went to college. And grandma helped us. She got a little store. She got a little store where she sold things and she tell us, "No matter what happened, you got go to college." She'd always tell us bad things that now I knew was normal things for girls and boys. She didn't want us to go out with the crowd. And she didn't want us to go in the Bottom where it was—It wasn't like it is now. Only thing they did there was dance. But she didn't want us to do that.	12:08
Tunga White	It was called the Bottom. The area was called the Bottom?	12:52
Mary Shipp	The Bottom. It was where all the—Most times, they had dances there and whatnot, and Piccolos and all that. You don't know anything about that, but that's what we had to dance by, was the Piccolo.	12:55
Tunga White	I played the flute, but I didn't know anything about people dance to piccolo.	13:05
Mary Shipp	Yeah, well you see, the Piccolo was that big something you put money in?	13:10
Tunga White	Ah! Okay. I almost thought—thought you talking about the instrument, the musical instrument.	13:15
Mary Shipp	No. And the principal, he provided. They was upset with him, and now I understand. But he got that. He had a place that he had rented down there where all the young people could come down and play music and dance. And some of the people didn't like it. But now, see, he was affording some recreation for us because even as principal of the school, he went to Sunday school too. Principal of the school. I think on maybe two Friday nights out of a month, he would have a dance at the school. So we could go up there.	13:21
Tunga White	You said this was a minister?	13:50
Mary Shipp	No, no, no. Principal.	13:50
Tunga White	He was the principal.	13:50
Mary Shipp	He was the principal of the school.	13:50
Tunga White	Of the school you attended?	13:50
Mary Shipp	Yes.	13:50
Tunga White	Okay. And what was his name?	13:58
Mary Shipp	Mr. JH James. Lord, I thought I had forgot all about that.	14:00
Tunga White	Is he from the area?	14:09
Mary Shipp	Yes, he was from the area. I remember he walked to school every day. He didn't have a car at that particular time. Later on, he did get a car.	14:11
Tunga White	Now you said that, were there other leisure activities for young people to do in that area?	14:22
Mary Shipp	No.	14:27
Tunga White	Besides—	14:27
Mary Shipp	No. In fact, we were so inferior, we'd go to church. We'd go to church. Come back home. But it was just so much hurt in our community because as I recall now, a lot of people would get drunk and they'd put him in jail. And I remember explicitly one of the things that I can't really get out of my mind. I guess that's been maybe 40 years ago. They arrested this Black man and they tied him to the back of the police car. And just drug him all over town and what have you.	14:33
Tunga White	You saw this?	15:10
Mary Shipp	Yeah.	15:10
Tunga White	How old were you when you saw [indistinct 00:15:17]?	15:16
Mary Shipp	About 14 or 15. And it was just sad the way—And see, my grandma, she told me that—Even though you didn't have integration, you had a lot of—Whereas the women would work for the White man, and then they would have children for him. And then he wouldn't want those children to associate with Black children. And I know my grandmother said that her brother was—she think now that they hung him. They never saw him anymore after this man had told him that he didn't want him to hang around this girl. Even though her mama was Black and worked for him. And she said he left her that night. So he said he was going to see her. And so she feels like that they killed him because we never saw him. They never saw him anymore after that.	15:20
Tunga White	This was a White girl?	16:05
Mary Shipp	No, her father—	16:05
Tunga White	She was mixed.	16:10
Mary Shipp	They had these Black women working in the homes and this White man, he would have children for them. That was the kind of thing it is. But then he didn't really want—a lot of those people at that particular time—Well we had a settlement out there called Jacksonville, Georgia. Most of those people that lived out there, they almost looked like White people. Except the lady. Except the lady that would be working in this house. And she had some other children that might've been dark. See, they had husbands too. But this is one of the things the husbands had to put up with.	16:12
Tunga White	Put up with.	16:45
Mary Shipp	The fact that the wife was up there working for this man and she was having kids for him. That was sad.	16:46
Tunga White	So was a lot of that going on in your area?	16:54
Mary Shipp	Yes. A lot of that going on in my area.	16:58
Tunga White	I'm sure you probably went to school with children of mixed blood. How did the Black children react to these mixed children? And how did the mixed children react to the Black children?	17:01
Mary Shipp	Okay. During that time, they had schools, neighborhood schools. And so in this settlement that I was telling about Jacksonville, Georgia, a lot of the kids out there, that was where you had these really mixed kids. But when we were in high school, a lot of those kids—Because then they started bussing the kids. So they came to town. And it was as if those kids felt like they were better than we were.	17:15
Tunga White	Were they treated better by adults, maybe? Like preferential treatment?	17:47
Mary Shipp	Well I think by the teachers and what have you. I think because of the fact that many of them were more advanced than we were, because they had some of the advantages that we had not had and stuff. And they had better clothes than we had. And then, as I said, many of them were White with this pretty hair. And during that time, you know how Black people looked up to those with that color skin. (laughs)	17:55
Tunga White	[indistinct 00:18:24] hair. These fathers of these mixed children, was it like a private thing where they did just maybe gave the mother some money or did they totally disassociate themselves from the situation? Or did some actually that you knew of say, "Yes, this is my child"?	18:23
Mary Shipp	Sure, sure. As I was telling you, that some of them didn't want them to associate with the Black men.	18:50
Tunga White	So they had an active part, many cases [crosstalk 00:19:02]—	18:57
Mary Shipp	Many occasions, they had an active part. I know one girl, she went to—This was when I was teaching school in that same area. She went to her father's funeral and sat with the family.	19:02
Tunga White	Really?	19:17
Mary Shipp	Yeah.	19:17
Tunga White	And she accepted—	19:17
Mary Shipp	Well, she said that they had some reservation, you know, at first. Some of them didn't want her to come, and whatnot. But they said he loved her. He left her in his will.	19:22
Tunga White	So when you think these schools that the mixed children went to, they were better? As far as like equipment, physical structure?	19:35
Mary Shipp	No, all of them was shanties, so to speak. I imagine it was in the '60s before—I'm 66 years old. So I'm talking about way back then. But it was in the '60s before we came to have anything like it was supposed to be, where they came in. And after they had the Rosa Parks' era and all that kind of stuff. Then, it was whereas then that they decided they would have separate and equal, which didn't work. But that's where that came about. And then it was better. You had better schools. You had schools—They weren't like the schools that the Whites went through as far as facilities and whatnot. But they were brick. And we had heat and had lunchroom. So before that time, we didn't have any lunchroom.	19:46
Tunga White	Now the school that you went to when you were in the city, Twin City Seminary, how long did you [crosstalk 00:20:55]?	20:48
Mary Shipp	It became Twin City High School. Actually it was Twin City Seminary was owned by the church at first. But it became Twin City High School and that's when we got stuff from the county and what have you. I went to school there. Let me see. I went there. I was 10 years old. I must have been like maybe in the fourth or fifth grade. And I finished high school there in 1944.	20:55
Tunga White	From your recollections of the school you attended while you were in the country. I think you said, Erie?	21:28
Mary Shipp	Erick, E-R-I-C-K.	21:34
Tunga White	Erick Public Schools. Was there a big difference in maybe the facilities at Erick Public Schools and Twin City?	21:38
Mary Shipp	Yes. Because Erick, it was just an old house with a big potbelly stove in it. But Twin City, because it had been a seminary and it was by the Baptist Church, that's why they called it Twin City Seminary. It was a two story building. And it wasn't adequate but it was much nicer than those schools that we had been accustomed going to at Erick.	21:51
Tunga White	Erick, how many teachers?	22:16
Mary Shipp	One.	22:19
Tunga White	One teacher. Can you remember her name?	22:19
Mary Shipp	Let's see. What was her name? Mrs. Williams. She was a William. What was her first name? I remember her daughters taught there too—tall, stately lady. It was Sarah Williams.	22:21
Tunga White	Sarah Williams. Now at that school, how many grades went to that school in Erick?	22:31
Mary Shipp	Seven. Most of us—I don't remember a high school being in that area. But most of us didn't go any further than seven and eighth grade. It was eight grades at that particular time. Because I know my mom, wherever she went to school at, by the time you get eighth grade, they said that that was all the education you needed.	22:45
Tunga White	So most people didn't get more than eighth grade education?	23:04
Mary Shipp	No. Unless they were fortunate. I had my uncle who was living with my grandmother and he went to a school in Cordell that was ran by the church. And so he went on to high school and he eventually went on to college and finished.	23:06
Tunga White	Now how much education did your parents [indistinct 00:23:33]?	23:29
Mary Shipp	Well my mother eventually finished high school. And my dad, he was very gifted man. I don't know how much education. Because my uncles finished high school. I don't know how he did it, but we never really talked about it. I said if he didn't finish high school, he was—	23:34
Tunga White	Working [indistinct 00:23:53]. Now, before your father died, who's the disciplinarian in the home?	23:51
Mary Shipp	My mom.	24:06
Tunga White	Your mom.	24:06
Mary Shipp	Dad was, he'd come in, he'd get mad with us and he'd grab anything he could get and hit us with it. And didn't ask no question. We just did something we didn't have no business doing. We know we were going to get a whooping. But mama, she talked to us and tell us why she was doing it and all of that. She was hard on us, but she did it with love. Until after my dad died, and she was away from home a lot because she went back and really finished high school and got her some college training and she taught school after that.	24:08
Tunga White	Really?	24:43
Mary Shipp	Mm-hmm.	24:44
Tunga White	What college did she—	24:44
Mary Shipp	Albany State.	24:44
Tunga White	And while you all were growing up, while your father was still there, did she do any type of odd job besides field work?	24:55
Mary Shipp	No.	25:03
Tunga White	[indistinct 00:25:05] She just stayed in the home, took care of the home?	25:08
Mary Shipp	Mm-hmm.	25:08
Tunga White	[indistinct 00:25:08] home and field work.	25:08
Mary Shipp	Field work.	25:08
Tunga White	Would you say that your parents were strict on you?	25:10
Mary Shipp	Yes.	25:12
Tunga White	Strict. Do you think they were stricter than maybe your friends or the people you knew their parents were?	25:12
Mary Shipp	Well during the era, all parents were just about alike. They were strict. There were things that we could not do, and places we could not go. But it wasn't a kind of strictness whereas we were denied a whole lot of things. It was just that they seemed to feel like it was so much out there to harm us. And they was protective and we couldn't do this and couldn't do that and couldn't do the other. And much of it is because they themselves had a lot of fears. And they wanted to protect us. I didn't know that then, but I know that now.	25:25
Tunga White	What do you think they were trying to protect you all from?	26:00
Mary Shipp	From that world out there that was—All this Jim Crowism and—Because I remember one time, we had some chickens and somebody, they come and steal our chickens. And mama shot out there one night. And I think she hit somebody because it was the Whites that was getting the chickens. And she was so afraid after that. She didn't even want us to go to school because she was afraid that whoever it was that was going maybe harm us or do something to us. And during that time, anytime White folks did something to Black folks, nothing was nothing about it. And so you could understand how there was so much fear. They would tell us, "Well you know that, if them White folks tell you to do something, you better do it because you know how them White folks are," and stuff like that. So it was fear. It was fear.	26:08
Mary Shipp	Well I experienced a lot of the fears too. Even when I started college and whatnot, because I remember I came to Albany State. That's where I did my undergraduate work at Albany State. And it was like we weren't allowed to register to vote. But my social studies teacher—what is her name? What was her name? What was her name? I was scared of her religiously. But all of us to pass that course, we had to go home and register. That might've been in—See, I graduated in '48. Might've been '46. And another girl and I from my hometown, we went to college together. And when we went back and we went down and told them we wanted to register, I thought they were going kill us. They had us to recite the preamble to the Constitution. And a lot of other stuff. So finally, they took us upstairs. And I don't know what they were going to do to us. But we decided ourselves that they must've been going to do something to us.	27:00
Mary Shipp	So we slipped out the back door. And we went back to school and we told our teacher about it. Why can't I think—I can't think of that lady's name. But she told us to go back and in the meantime, I think she corresponded with somebody there about they're denying us the right to register to vote. So we did get a chance to register.	28:00
Mary Shipp	I don't remember as a young lady. And even after I got out of school, because after I got out of school I was bitter. I was bitter with how we were treated and how we had so little and our rights being denied us. And that type of thing. I was really bitter and I said that if ever I got a chance, I was going to help make things better for us. And well I graduated from college and got married and had a daughter and then I was sidetracked a little bit in that I had a kidney problem that finally, I had to go and have my kidney removed.	28:26
Mary Shipp	But I got over that, and had another little girl. And I had two girls. And my husband and I were separated quite early. And I taught school. And sent my kids to school. Of course, there was grandma. All the time. Grandma raised us. And then after I went back on. I got married and came here to live. And then after my husband and I separated, I went back to McRae and she helped me raise my great girls. Where we came, my husband and I got back together, I think when my baby was senior in college.	29:07
Mary Shipp	But all during that time, back home, we worked to make things better. We worked through the church. I joined the AME church. But all my people were members of the Christian Methodist Church. But I joined the African Methodist Church basically because they believed in deliverance. Richard Allen was that great deliverer in the church who said that he didn't feel like that Black folks should have to go up in the altar the worship that we should worship together. And finally, he pull out.	29:53
Mary Shipp	And so I worked with the young people in the church. And then we worked in the community with the Voters League and NAACP to try and make things better for the community. And we went through so many things, trying to get a right to vote. And then we found out that even after they let us register to vote, that the White man was buying our votes. They telling us how to vote and paying for the votes and stuff like that.	30:25
Mary Shipp	So we didn't really make any great changes then. And I don't know, when I left here, when I left home in '77 coming back to Sylvester. And I got here and there were no Blacks anywhere, like in the courthouse, working in banks, or nothing like that. And we just had 300 some registered. And they was afraid to do so. But my husband, he was in business and he pushed me up. Because at that particular time, I had retired. I just got sick of the system. Because after they integrate the schools, it was so much, just so much. I taught in integrated school and had some—Pardon.	30:55
Tunga White	What was the difference between the Black schools and the schools that we were integrated into? What kind of differences did you note? Before integration and after integration?	31:42
Mary Shipp	All kinds of differences. In the quality of materials. And we could see, when we were integrated schools, even after the state board decided that Black children should have education, we didn't get any new books. We got books that was handed down that came from the White school. But after integration came, it was hard to get in those schools. Because they didn't want us there. They didn't want us there. And a lot of the kids wanted to go and went.	31:58
Mary Shipp	And the parents went through a lot because the kids decided they were going to schools. And they had a lot of problems. But then in visiting the schools where many of the Black kids went after integration they said that they could go, there was so much difference. The atmosphere was different as far as having things to work with and desks in the rooms and stuff like that, that wasn't all torn up and stuff. There was a whole lot of difference. Integration put stress on Black kids and Black teachers because that's what happened to me. Well, I taught in—That was during the time that they had to have some Black teachers in White schools. And I taught in a White school in Macon, Georgia. I was the only Black teacher and had one Black kid.	32:29
Tunga White	How was that?	33:19
Mary Shipp	That was terrible. (laughs)	33:21
Tunga White	[indistinct 00:33:24].	33:21
Mary Shipp	Ms. Melediks was the principal in [indistinct 00:33:27] Rosa Town School. I got there that day. First day they sent me out there because matter of fact, they advertised for the teachers. And my brother was living there. And she says, "I never will accept this because the only way I perceive Black folks is being maids and janitors." And she said, "Oh"— she, I mean, it was just terrible. I really thought I wasn't going to make it. And she assigned me to this classroom and the students, I didn't have a Black child because only one Black child in the school. I finally taught her the second year I was there and decided I couldn't go back. But she did so many things to me. And those kids loved me. Their parents loved me. Because see, without me knowing the caliber of the White teacher and how the White child could do nothing. It's reading, writing and arithmetic, and they couldn't say anything.	33:24
Mary Shipp	In other words, it was a good learning atmosphere that I really didn't know was a good learning atmosphere because the kids were smart. They learned. They got their lesson. They went home. They didn't cut up or nothing like that. But I went in and I was flexible. And the kids loved me. I was a good teacher, but they loved me. We do a lot of things and whatnot.	34:30
Mary Shipp	She'd come down over there in the cart, "Y'all sit down and hush that fuss down there." We'd just be laughing. "We don't do this here." And she called me up to the office. She'd come in the room, and she'd said ugly things to me. I filed complaints against her from time to time. And the first year I was out there was the best year I've ever had at being a teacher. The parents would come in the afternoon, and grade all my papers. And they would do such nice things for me. I look at things I have now. And that's been a long time that they would bring me. And at Christmas time, they gave me a money tree. They were rich. That was a rich neighborhood.	34:52
Tunga White	When you initially got to the school, did you have problems with those same parents and in time, they just came around?	35:31
Mary Shipp	Well you see, the kids make the difference. See, when I initially got to the school, the parents would come out. Well the parents that came out to help me, they were parents dedicated to their children. So they scrutinized me and they came in and the kids would go home so happy in the evening.	35:40
Tunga White	I was a teacher, so I know.	36:02
Mary Shipp	So it made a difference. And the parents would come out and they would make so many good—And they did so many things for me. But she didn't like that either. "You're not going to be able to make it. You are not going to maintain. You're not going to be able to keep all [indistinct 00:36:19]," and all that kind of stuff. But I did. The kids helped me. But I got to the place that second year, I just said I couldn't take it no more. So I left and I left there. I wanted that experience at that particular time. I wanted that experience. Well, I taught school here beginning and I taught school at my home. And from there, I wanted to change. I just said, "All right. I just want to go to up in Macon and I want to teach up there." So at that time, my brother said that, "Well, I heard they're looking for some minority teachers." And I went up there and I stayed two years. And then after that, I came back to McRae.	36:08
Tunga White	Let me ask you about that experience. How did the other teachers, the teachers, treat you?	36:59
Mary Shipp	Well, the one we had—For sixth grade, I taught sixth grade. I had one that took me under her wing. The others ignored me. But she took me under her wing. She shared most of everything with me. She would show me the ropes of how to do this and how to do that. Now she didn't like the way that I handle the kids because she thought that I shouldn't talk to them, that I shouldn't laugh with them, that I shouldn't play with them or anything. She didn't like that because they couldn't even say a word in her classroom unless she allowed them to. And those kids did so many things. But the other teachers, they ignored you.	37:06
Tunga White	Now you said that the children couldn't speak until spoken to and things like that. Was that the norm for all the classes?	37:53
Mary Shipp	Yeah. All of them. You know what? The first day I went in there and went in lunchroom, you could hear a pin fall.	38:00
Tunga White	Like that?	38:06
Mary Shipp	That's right. You be able to hear a pin, for that principal. She was standing out there and she looked like she was big as a horse. She was just a big lady. And she scared me too. Those children was scared, but they didn't say anything. They didn't say a thing. They'd line up. They'd be in the line. They wouldn't say nothing.	38:11
Tunga White	Was discipline like corporal punishment that was implemented in the White schools just like the Black schools? Or how did—differences?	38:28
Mary Shipp	Yeah, but she did it. If I had a problem in my—I had only one little boy that I had a problem with. And she did it. She'd take him up there and spank him good. Call his parents and spank him good. She had control. She really did.	38:36
Tunga White	Now in the Black schools that you worked in years prior to this, was it like that also? Did the principal administer punishment like corporal punishment?	38:54
Mary Shipp	No, the teachers could do that. And we did not have that kind of control. I don't think you need that kind of control in a school, in a classroom, where the children are afraid to speak and what have you. Because see, that takes away too much of their creativity. And you had that little shy child over there who, if you didn't sit back there and know that child was shy and pull it out of him, he would forever be that way. So that atmosphere was different in the schools before integration.	39:07
Tunga White	You mentioned that the Black students were wanting to integrate into the schools. And some people that I've talked to have said that a lot of the Black children, they didn't want to be integrating schools. Their parents were the one pushing them. Would you say it was different in this area?	39:45
Mary Shipp	We had some kids. Not a whole lot of them, but some of them wanted to go to those schools. Sometime it was because of the thing they used to say, "Well they got everything over there." Even before integration. It was like they wanted to go. Now after some of them went, they would tell horror stories about what happened to them.	40:08
Tunga White	Do you remember any horror stories that were told?	40:26
Mary Shipp	Well, the isolation. How they would call them all kind of names and "niggers," and that sort of stuff. And how they come by sometime and kick them and not associate with—And any time they said something in the classroom, they would grin, and sometimes they'd walk by the tables where they were eating and knock the plates off and that type of thing.	40:28
Tunga White	And was this just the students doing things like that to the other students? Or did they have any horror stories as far as teachers were concerned and principal was concerned?	40:57
Mary Shipp	No, not really. Not as far as—because, yeah, the teachers, they were mandated. So they didn't want anything to happen to those kids. They had to protect them.	41:11
Tunga White	Did you think most of the Black community was for integration?	41:24
Mary Shipp	No, my brother who was a teacher also, he said it was the worst thing that had ever happened. Integration to the Black race.	41:33
Tunga White	This was before or after?	41:37
Mary Shipp	Before.	41:37
Tunga White	Before. Okay.	41:42
Mary Shipp	He did not want integration. I was betwixt and between, because I was just saying we had had so much that so many negative things in our lives. And have been denied so many privilege. I can see those signs say, "White only," and at the water fountains. And we'd have to go around to the back and the places where they sold food. And one of my horrors was getting on the bus. And you had to go way back to the backseat of the bus. And then if it filled up with White folks, you'd have to get up and stand up. So it was so much hurt. As I go through some of this, it even hurts now. A lot of it I've forgotten about. As I said, in the '70s here, we did some positive things. Before that here in Sylvester, as you might have been told, they did a lot of things to Black folks. They put him in jail when they marched. And did you talk with Ms. Walker, Lela Walker?	41:42
Tunga White	No, [indistinct 00:42:53].	42:53
Mary Shipp	Because I think she was the one that—	42:53
Tunga White	Her name's Lela?	42:53
Mary Shipp	Yes. That was the one Ms. Jones was telling you about yesterday. Put him in jail. And one little girl—I don't know what the little girl did. But anyway, it started over this young girl. I don't know what it was. But they put him in jail. And they just had a mess here. But it never did produce any fruits. You understand? All the marching and all the going to jail.	42:55
Mary Shipp	And when as I said, when I came back in the 1970s, you had no Blacks in the courthouse. You had no Blacks in the bank. A Black had never been elected to a public office in the history of this. We came back here. We had a massive voter registration campaign and my husband ran for city council. I believe that was in '88, in '88. And he won. He won. We registered 1500 people one summer. And he won. And then after that, we sued the city in order to be reapportioned. Because they didn't really want him up there. We had some Whites that helped to get him in. But he stayed there two years and he decided he didn't want to be there anymore.	43:17
Tunga White	At what point in time do you think that there was a political change and Blacks were beginning to wield power in this area? Around what year would you think they finally?	44:12
Mary Shipp	It's '78. Because as I recall now, and I look at now and look at then, we had men. We had all kind of opposition. I was secretary of the NAACP. And we filed a suit against the city. They were not in compliance with the voting right act and the three panel judge, they were fixed to have an election. They called it off, then reapportion the city. I ran for city council and won. I think I ran—My husband was in '88. Oh, he was in '78. So I ran in '84 I believe it was. And they put somebody up to run against me. We were in wards. But I won by 16 folks. So I stayed on city council eight years. And then after that—Well the next year, another guy, another Black guy—You know what? We had so much power, out of four council members, three of them were Black here in Sylvester.	44:25
Tunga White	That's something.	45:37
Mary Shipp	Here in Sylvester. I didn't bring it, but I had a little article I wanted to bring you. But we were in control of the city. We just didn't take advantage of. I was the vocal one. So they started buying the others off. Because see, we could really have control of this city. We did a whole lot of things. You see all the streets are paved.	45:38
Mary Shipp	We had Blacks in the courthouse and all the offices up there. We had some Blacks in the banks. We don't have any now. And we started making progress. We really started making progress. We got a housing unit out near an area where I lived that housed a lot of people that was in substandard houses. And we wrote proposals to bring in some programs for children. We had saved the children program here. And then we got a guy, he was elected to the board of commissioners. And we got somebody on the Board of Education, Black. We did that all in a 10 year span. And it's like, now we are retrogressing. I ran for mayor. I ran for mayor 10 years ago and I ran for mayor in November, and could have won. I—	46:03

Mary Shipp	So I had this article where I asked him—I had a young man, we had all the teenagers in the streets was about three or 400 up there that night. And this guy got killed, 18 years old. Somebody shot and killed him. And so, I asked for a curfew for those under 17 years old because most of them that was out there that night, that was their age. The whole school turned out because he was football, playing everything. And the whole town went crazy. The Black folks turned against me because the fact they said that I wanted clubs to close up.	0:00
Mary Shipp	I asked the club owners if they would close at 12 o'clock until we got the kids off the streets, so they turned against me. And that was in November. Now, I had no idea because I got a lot of things done. As I said, we paved the streets and just a lot of things because I was in there, I was vocal and there were other Blacks in there. And then, I had one White council member that was really on my side and I really didn't know Black people felt the way they did because they had this meeting and all those Blacks come up there, "You don't tell our children when to go home," and blah blah blah blah. And I decided that it was my time again to run for mayor. So I didn't solicit no money. I got some of my friends together. They would say, "Don't you run, don't you run, don't you run."	0:36
Tunga White	Why did they not want you to run?	1:22
Mary Shipp	Because they said they felt that I wasn't going to win. But I said, "When—" I wanted to win—See, Albany Herald, on the front page they had projected me as being the next mayor. We 65% Black in the city of Sylvester.	1:24
Tunga White	So who were you running against? Were you coming?	1:40
Mary Shipp	No, no. It was another White council member that decided he was going to run. He was a Republican. And what he said once I lost, he said there's something wrong with us. I was talking about programs for children, transportation for the elderly, all of those things, and yet he won. And you know what he say? He said, "You know why you lost?" Because some of the people had tried down here, they had tried to get me to say if I was elected to mayor, that I wouldn't do nothing about the streets. And I said I couldn't say that because right out here now, it's a shame what goes on. I got to go out and say, "Well, y'all don't like each other." But during the same time that same year, I had a great year. I got elected to the state democratic committee, I got appointed to the State Board of Correction. I went to the National Democratic Convention and I was invited to the inauguration of President Clinton.	1:42
Tunga White	That is good. You did have a real banner year.	2:54
Mary Shipp	Yeah, I had a banner year. And then, when I lost and somebody said, "Why did you lose?" I said, "I had a great year." Because I'm an advocate, especially for children, but against oppression. And I'm seeing so much of it.	2:54
Tunga White	When you see all that going on, you have to speak out, stand [indistinct 00:03:10].	3:06
Mary Shipp	Yeah. And even in the midst of it, now I'm working with some guys out there, public work. The director is spreading his tills, two of them, He's still director out there. So I've been working on that. We got a union here. I'm not for, not against union, but I was glad it came in because they're doing some positive things. And things are so bad for Black folks here in this community. I really am thinking about leaving. Lord has been good to me, He blessed me with my business and I have a home.	3:10
Tunga White	How long have you been working with this business?	3:43
Mary Shipp	Well, since '77.	3:46
Tunga White	What made you all want to have this funeral home?	3:53
Mary Shipp	Well, see, my husband was the one who—He bought the funeral home from this guy right here. And when he died, it was left to me and nobody else wanted it. He died in '87, so since that time I've been trying to run it. It's been hard. But the resources from my funeral home has gone to the things like children's program. And I do a lot in voters education and restoration. I just tell them all the time, "I don't just bury the dead." Because strangely enough after I started wanting Black folks to take control of their communities and what have you, they got to a place they didn't even want me in this bedroom.	3:59
Tunga White	What?	4:45
Mary Shipp	Yeah. So even at this point in, it's like I said, if I had to do it again, I'd do it all over again. But I want to go somewhere else. I want to sell out in and just go somewhere else. Nobody wants to do it. We had a march for Jesus Saturday. It was just something—90% of the kids here don't even go to Sunday school in church.	4:46
Tunga White	Uh-huh.	5:12
Mary Shipp	So we just got on the street. I sent letters to every preacher in the community, Black and White. And we had only one minister there.	5:12
Tunga White	You're kidding.	5:24
Mary Shipp	Only one. We had T-shirts, the kids, and March for Jesus and stuff like that.	5:24
Tunga White	And no ministers?	5:30
Mary Shipp	No ministers, just one. And that was a friend of mine that's out here in this public work. I told him they wasn't impressed with him, he wouldn't have been there.	5:33
Tunga White	What?	5:38
Mary Shipp	That's right, one. So I talked to my friend and I was telling her, I want to sell my house and sell my business. I got some rental properties and people look at you and say, "There she goes in that Cadillac." Why wouldn't they want me? I'd take them to the social security office, do different things for them. But it's a kind of oppression now. I told them, I said, "It's even worse than it was back in the '60s because we didn't have all of these drugs and all this Black on Black crime." I tell them out there, I said, "If I could understand." I said, "Y'all help me to understand why y'all going to kill each other."	5:41
Tunga White	What did they tell you when you asked the questions?	6:20
Mary Shipp	"Oh, well, that man ain't got no sense on that. He took my liquor." And so, I walked down here where the kids were because they selling drugs on the street and they would say, "What you doing down here?" So I would say, I said, "I can go anywhere I want to. I'm free." I said, "What are you all doing?" "Drinking liquor, it makes us feel good." I said, "For how long?" "Man, it don't make nothing—well, we get sober and then we got to go get drunk again." I say, "Yeah, but look what you doing to yourselves." And as I saying, then nobody look like nobody else. It's really concerning.	6:23
Tunga White	No one cares? You don't think there are no other leaders in the Black community that actively go out into the community?	6:53
Mary Shipp	No. No.	7:05
Tunga White	So if you move, where would you go and would you do the same type of work?	7:05
Mary Shipp	I would have to. My commitment is to helping people.	7:10
Tunga White	It's rough all over. I think that the same problems you all experience here come from Mississippi.	7:14
Mary Shipp	Mm-hmm.	7:19
Tunga White	I think we have the same problem in all the other communities. The apathy is in the other communities and the Black leaders not taking an active role in the community, they just look from afar at the problems, say, "Oh, woe is me." We have all these problems in Black community they're not doing anything.	7:20
Mary Shipp	[indistinct 00:07:50]. It's just because see, my thing is how am I going to survive here with the pressure? Okay, whenever something happened, they don't pick up the trash or like what's happened out to the camp and what have you. They always calling me, see. That's the thing. That's how come I would like to go somewhere else. It's good to be needed and I enjoy helping people.	7:51
Tunga White	Maybe the Lord put you in this spot because there's nobody else that's concerned about doing anything. He put you in a place.	8:16
Mary Shipp	Yeah, I can understand. I have to go read Joseph. You know how the Lord put him in Potiphar's house and what he went through. But I said, "Tell the Lord," every time I say, "Well, he was a man. He was a young man and I'm a lady and I don't have anybody here." My kids, I got a daughter in Macon. Her husband is a lawyer, they're doing well there. And I have another daughter in Tampa and she's doing well. She's the principal of a middle school. And som they're doing well. And they very seldom come by to see me. Nobody ever comes to see me unless they want something.	8:27
Tunga White	Really?	8:58
Mary Shipp	That's right. And then, the atmosphere is that now the Lord gave me that little car out there. My husband had died and we had Cadillacs for our rolling stop, but they were worn to crisps almost. And I had this '77 I was driving around. I was trying to get a truck for the Black guy with the street department. Revolutionized that street department and got that truck and was sitting up. And then that guy, he ran in there with this car and I said, "I can't afford that." Because I had been down to one of the car place and even the used ones was 20, 30 some thousand dollars. So he said, "Oh, you can afford this one." And I got that car. He gave me $2,500 for mine and he gave me $1,000 rebate. And he financed $6,000 for that car. And once I got that car, you should have heard the community. "She thinks she's something, riding around in that Cadillac."	9:02

Item Info

Title:

Mary Shipp interview recording, 1994 June 28

Date:

June 28, 1994

Creator:

Shipp, Mary Cook

Contributor:

White, Tunga

Description:

Name: Mary Cook Shipp; Date of birth: 1927-11-30; Place of birth: Wheeler County, GA; Occupation(s): educator; civil service; mortician; Residence: Sylvester, GA
Informant ID: 806; interviewed by: Tunga White.

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Behind the Veil

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Behind the Veil: Documenting African American Life in the Jim Crow South interviews, photographs, and project records, circa 1864-2011, bulk 1990-2004

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The David M. Rubenstein Rare Book and Manuscript Library acquired the Records of the Behind the Veil Oral History Project from the Duke University Center for Documentary Studies in 1997, 1998, 2000, and 2002.

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Copyright for content created by the Behind the Veil project is held by Duke University and made available to the public using a Creative Commons Attribution / Non-commercial (CC-BY-NC) license.

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Mary Shipp interview recording, 1994 June 28

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1. Mary Shipp administrative file, 1994

2. Mary Shipp mayoral campaign flyer, 1993

John Hope Franklin Research Center

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Mary Shipp interview recording, 1994 June 28

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