Julius Davis interview recording, 1996 October 15
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| Eric Johnson | [indistinct 00:00:03]. For the record, my name is Eric Johnson. I'm interviewing Mr. Julius Davis on October the 15th. Mr. Davis, if you could just do a sound check, and get your full name, and your date of birth, that would be great. | 0:03 |
| Julius Davis, Jr. | My name is Julius Davis, Jr., and my date of birth is April 28, 1929. | 0:23 |
| Eric Johnson | Well, why don't we go ahead and start. If you could, let's just go back to the beginning of your life, and for you to tell me what it was like growing up as a young boy in Durham, what things were like then. | 0:35 |
| Julius Davis, Jr. | Well I was born here in Durham, on Willard Street, the grand all the way out on Walton Avenue [indistinct 00:00:59] cities, common streets of Durham [indistinct 00:01:02]. I was raised in that same neighborhood in Matthew Street, and then we moved to Walton Avenue, which is now Pride Street, when I was five years old. And I attended the Durham public schools. Willard elementary school and [indistinct 00:01:26] high school. And after completing my high school, and then completed high school in 1947, I went to work with the dry cleaning plant, and stayed there. Well, it was a partnership situation that was on the property, and I stayed there until I was drafted into the military in 1950. November of 1950. And I stayed in the service for three years, and was discharged honorably in 1952, November of 1952. | 0:50 |
| Julius Davis, Jr. | And upon discharge, the business that we had was in pretty foul shape, because it took three people to replace the job that I was working. I did some of that because I would go to work and leave until around 6:00 at night. It would be 12:00 when I left, and so there were only three of us that would do the business. And it was always a result of, we lost so much [indistinct 00:02:31]. So I went back to school, I went to Durham Business College for three years. And from there, I worked the [indistinct 00:03:02] high school for two and a half years. And then I transferred to the postal service. And then I stayed in the postal service until I retired in 1982. And— well I've been in Durham all my life, and I think I'm supposed to be involved in quite a few things. First, I was president of the first new NAACP here in Durham. I'm sure most people have forgotten about that, but it was organized in 1954. Durham Business College, you know, North Carolina was such a [indistinct 00:03:55] practice. | 2:11 |
| Julius Davis, Jr. | I've been involved in the church all of my adult life. I've worked in a civil capacity. I've been— I've seen just about [indistinct 00:04:23] area of the church. I've been a trustee, I've been a deacon. Right now [indistinct 00:04:33] at Asbury, a couple of United Methodist Church, with the service shepard of the trustee board. For years, I was on the board of commissions for senior citizens council in Durham. I worked with the community on [indistinct 00:04:56]. But right now, most of our [indistinct 00:05:05] church, a United Methodist Church which means, "With the [indistinct 00:05:09]." I think there's a connection with the situation. And I served on two state boards. One is Asbury Homes. Our project there is to build group homes for the gifted people. Right now, we're just confused as to [indistinct 00:05:35] I used to dream [indistinct 00:05:39] for four to five people. And also all of the outdoor camping, I was commissioner of outdoor camping. We have four camps near here, or here in the state, and I'm the [indistinct 00:06:04] person who gets [indistinct 00:06:08] working out the budget, making sure the camps have all seen the difference that that has [indistinct 00:06:19]. Just building [indistinct 00:06:26] camps. Anyway, I could [indistinct 00:06:38]. | 4:06 |
| Eric Johnson | Oh. | 6:40 |
| Julius Davis, Jr. | Unless you had some questions you'd like to ask me, and I [indistinct 00:06:43]. | 6:41 |
| Eric Johnson | Right. He's got a very long list [indistinct 00:06:46] information. I guess first off [indistinct 00:06:51] before we were talking, before the tape was started, you were telling me that you went to Durham Business College. | 6:44 |
| Julius Davis, Jr. | Right. | 6:58 |
| Eric Johnson | Now I did some research, and I didn't find it. Was that under another name, or— | 6:59 |
| Julius Davis, Jr. | No. It was Durham Business College. It is no longer in— it doesn't function probably, it went out of business, regretfully, because it really, really served early APs coming from all over to pick them out of North Carolina, because it was a business school. And it did a tremendous job. We had so many people [indistinct 00:07:29] in Durham now that— who came out of that school. To be perfectly honest with you, it's the first— It had mechanical before North Carolina Central did. | 7:03 |
| Eric Johnson | Was it primarily for African Americans? | 7:47 |
| Julius Davis, Jr. | Yes, primarily for African Americans. [indistinct 00:07:52] that's one more fallacy though. I don't know if any school has been primarily for African Americans, especially African Americans going to attend it. Because it'd been and all Black school [indistinct 00:08:10]. Quite [indistinct 00:08:19] now. It had been an essential program, but now [indistinct 00:08:26] is broken— That's broken because you've had Central's law school first established as White, about twenty percent was White and [indistinct 00:08:35], and a great improvement basically. | 7:50 |
| Eric Johnson | Why did you decide to go into business school? | 8:42 |
| Julius Davis, Jr. | I just liked business. Business is, as I said before, I was in business. I started working when I was in the 10th grade. I sold papers when I was a kid, so I've always worked, and I've been [indistinct 00:09:05] so I just noticed it's really that way [indistinct 00:09:11] choice as to what school you go to. You got to go. | 8:48 |
| Eric Johnson | Now you mentioned that, earlier after you— before the tape was on, you got a degree in accounting, why did you not pursue employment in that field? Why did you go instead to work at the hospital? | 9:17 |
| Julius Davis, Jr. | Well at that point when I got out of school there were two jobs offered to me. One was at the Lincoln Hospital, but it's now merged with the Watts Hospital in [indistinct 00:09:48] County General, but I would've had to take care of the whole financial responsibility there at the hospital. The fee there was $135 a month. In North Carolina Mutual I was offered a job, I think it was $225 a month for [indistinct 00:10:11] director. But by then, I had a kid, finally had a kid, and so I guess it was paying more. | 9:31 |
| Eric Johnson | How does it make you feel that you spent three years training for that, and— | 10:24 |
| Julius Davis, Jr. | Well I've always dabbled, in a sense, I've always done groups, taxes, whatever. So I used it [indistinct 00:10:41]. And then I think in the groups also because like the groups [indistinct 00:10:46] anyway. I had an opportunity to go into customs to fill, because at one time, the Postal Service were trying to place people, place predominantly Blacks in other fields, because it was, the post office was loaded with Blacks that were— Well you can say overqualified because that'll be the [indistinct 00:11:17] advanced education. Then I also had my [indistinct 00:11:26] at the [indistinct 00:11:27] service, but the reason— And I [indistinct 00:11:30] and I thought— Because I was going to the [indistinct 00:11:33] service, but the hold back there was that I would've had to go Washington to go to school for six months. | 10:29 |
| Julius Davis, Jr. | Then I have to complete the six months training, and never go back to the same area. And I think that's the end of that. Didn't feel like stop, putting my things, moving them all over the country, so I just stayed here. And another man, a fellow that worked with the postal service [indistinct 00:12:10] go through, went ahead, get through the service. He [indistinct 00:12:17] gives me a long talk. He came out to [indistinct 00:12:23] because he was a person who [indistinct 00:12:25] conniving people out of money, like not paying the whole time [indistinct 00:12:34]. | 11:42 |
| Julius Davis, Jr. | So he was over there doing an investigation, and came back, spent a couple days [indistinct 00:12:43]. I mean [indistinct 00:12:45] go over because the [indistinct 00:12:47] the whole situation, it was not as good as it sounds. Mine was good, but at that particular time, the auditors would supplement their checks by— percentage basis. If they had to work with somebody, if they needed a certain surgery, the amount of money to pay [indistinct 00:13:18] does if they have horrible things that happen [indistinct 00:13:24]. | 12:35 |
| Eric Johnson | It was a standing policy to charge that amount, or they're trying to say— | 13:25 |
| Julius Davis, Jr. | No, say figuratively [indistinct 00:13:31] if I'm the agent [indistinct 00:13:34] for that order queue, and I find discrepancies, and there's always a discrepancy, because none of us ever [indistinct 00:13:47]. And because we— A lot of them, you just don't know, so if I find where I can squeeze an additional thousand dollars out of [indistinct 00:13:58]. | 13:29 |
| Eric Johnson | The government would pay you a percentage for that? | 14:04 |
| Julius Davis, Jr. | Mm-hmm. | 14:07 |
| Eric Johnson | Okay. That doesn't [indistinct 00:14:11]. | 14:09 |
| Julius Davis, Jr. | And [indistinct 00:14:12] publicized, too. | 14:12 |
| Eric Johnson | Is that still the— | 14:15 |
| Julius Davis, Jr. | No, no. It was credited, that day was [indistinct 00:14:20] have been some of the [indistinct 00:14:23] in that district building within this period. We would still go out [indistinct 00:14:31] then this is the [indistinct 00:14:41] and those, it's 15% tax [indistinct 00:14:49] going into deficit [indistinct 00:14:54] cut tax 15%, without really hurting somebody. You know, without hurting [indistinct 00:15:03]. I can't really explain it, but people believe it, and I taught here for years. Well all you have to do is pay people to do nothing. Nothing's ever free. | 14:17 |
| Eric Johnson | It seems that all the jobs you've mentioned being truly interested in, from the IRS, to enjoying the post office, are government types of jobs. Do you feel like there was a difference in working for the government as far as the way you were treated as African American, versus your chances of private employment? | 15:29 |
| Julius Davis, Jr. | Well, it was discrimination in both jobs the same way, the same as in the private sector, but the difference is you had a little more protection, because of the rules [indistinct 00:16:06] for the public health service. And they were enforced strong. We had them, to give you an example, the postmaster that was hiring made the statement before we got there that these words are now [indistinct 00:16:31] words we no longer use [indistinct 00:16:33]. But three people went to Washington and talked with the associate postmaster, they were assisting the postmaster general, and they would clock that that dude's Black. So they told me [indistinct 00:16:54] this and this, so he used to deal with that, and he'd go and make [indistinct 00:17:05] "Oh, Colored folks like [indistinct 00:17:08] told me that you didn't have, because you're looking for a job." So then Sam and I have to drive back to Durham, and spent the night in Raleigh, no, Washington, until we got home at seven [indistinct 00:17:22] in the morning. And this is the type of thing that folks [indistinct 00:17:32] protect you. | 15:50 |
| Julius Davis, Jr. | Even in the private sector too at that period of time, they didn't have [indistinct 00:17:41] did not have to hide. To give you an example, I went to a— I had an application [indistinct 00:17:47] and I went up there, into personnel, mechanical job in personnel. | 17:35 |
| Julius Davis, Jr. | And the personnel manager told me that he didn't have the papers, but at that time, somebody had gone [indistinct 00:18:10] on the board, they could take it to the square and see it in their personnel file. So they asked [indistinct 00:18:22] you know, whenever I got the [indistinct 00:18:25]. So he told me they need for the jobs at sales, if I wanted to come over, to see if I could come over [indistinct 00:18:35] you know? So [indistinct 00:18:39] asked if they want a job in personnel. So he visited, and we trained, and we found out [indistinct 00:18:51] if you need an application [indistinct 00:18:55] you'll have to do an application. And [indistinct 00:18:58] because you're going to get a 9th grade education. | 18:00 |
| Julius Davis, Jr. | That's the thing, you know, that really bothered me, just because no training, no formal training per se. You just have to be polite, yeah, to get the job. Now listen, this is the type [indistinct 00:19:34] you know, people wonder why Blacks would do it. I remember that I used to be. Through God's grace, I made some investments [indistinct 00:19:46] but I have [indistinct 00:19:53]. | 19:10 |
| Eric Johnson | What other memories of that sort of bias do you have? | 19:56 |
| Julius Davis, Jr. | Because we [indistinct 00:20:04]. | 20:04 |
| Eric Johnson | So do you think things have changed much, or— | 20:10 |
| Julius Davis, Jr. | They have a certain [indistinct 00:20:16], Now they've agreed that [indistinct 00:20:24] and how this is covered up, just the lengths of it, about CIA pushing drugs in Black [indistinct 00:20:44]. I believe it, because if they're— You remember the syphilis they pushed over on Black people. | 20:14 |
| Eric Johnson | Right, in Tuskegee. | 20:54 |
| Julius Davis, Jr. | Yeah, the Tuskegee situation, so think through there. They'll push drugs to Black people, so yes. If they're coming, we'll see peace pipe, crack pipe, same thing. I hope so. [indistinct 00:21:08]. | 20:56 |
| Eric Johnson | What about anything the postal service provides? You said it was less because of the federal government regulation, but still you were living in the south? | 21:11 |
| Julius Davis, Jr. | The south doesn't regulate. The south, that's a stigma. I would prefer racially if it was out in the north. In the south, we've had a lot of problems. But when I was a kid, we played with— I lived right next to a White community. We played together, we'd eat together. | 21:21 |
| Julius Davis, Jr. | Now the only difference is, when you got older, the parents would start putting restrictions on that. Playing, stuff like [indistinct 00:21:57]. But for a while, you know, it was okay. In the north, the same thing prevailed, but the only time I've ever had a plate broken in my face was in [indistinct 00:22:14] New York. My cousin, when I was out there with some of the relatives to meet in town one day, and my cousin and I went over to a business in [indistinct 00:22:28]. I was able to go ahead and sit down in the restaurant and eat food in the restaurant. They allowed us to come in and sit down and eat [indistinct 00:22:36] dishes, plate smacked [indistinct 00:22:39] they broke them. | 21:50 |
| Julius Davis, Jr. | This wasn't in the south. So the south got blamed for a lot of things, and a lot of things happened in the south, but in the north, then it was a little more stuck. So in the south [indistinct 00:23:01] there was segregation and there was racism. In the north, there was a smile with a knife in your back. The same thing. And the people in the— And since the civil rights movement, the south has fared so much better because they made change. The Blacks have pushed for appropriate [indistinct 00:23:29] to integrate, but at present, the Blacks in the north said, "We're okay," which is not the case. Apathy [indistinct 00:23:44] racially, in the south. | 22:42 |
| Eric Johnson | What was your job like at the post office? | 23:54 |
| Julius Davis, Jr. | I was a carrier. I really liked it because me, I'm a people person. It gave me an opportunity to mingle. Go meet, hook up with people on the street. Meet people. Sometimes meet people on a daily basis. It's just enjoyable. [indistinct 00:24:25] and the job just suited me. In the last 13 or 14 years, I delivered this route [indistinct 00:24:38] where I live, and they'll come over every day [indistinct 00:24:41]. | 23:57 |
| Eric Johnson | Were you given academic [indistinct 00:24:52] before, or was it a random assignment? Did that sort of thing ever change? | 24:50 |
| Julius Davis, Jr. | Oh no. Well see, you accept positions because of seniority, and yeah. If you were here but White, they almost hate to give it to you. Now there were some things now [indistinct 00:25:20] just to give an example. We have never— No Blacks were ever elevated to supervisor positions, so we really need to start doing a push for that. And so we've got it down with Philip, and we would accept the position because of [indistinct 00:25:45]. So we would expect them to be the next supervisor, but not what that part of this stage would be. And that morning, immediately the supervisor came up and told me, "[indistinct 00:26:08]." When we got back in from the office that afternoon, we found that they'd given to White boy, because they were two of them. Did it himself, they gave it to the White boy. | 24:58 |
| Julius Davis, Jr. | But the Black fella had a [indistinct 00:26:22]. The White boy had finished college. The Black boy had [indistinct 00:26:30] commercial sanitation, security performance. He got three, the White boy got four. The Black fella had been in the post office five years longer than the White boy. As a result, the postmaster lost his job, but he still made what he wanted to do. And also if you know, the White boy replaced [indistinct 00:26:52]. So that's one of the challenges [indistinct 00:26:58] position [indistinct 00:27:07] the role, of course, but he [indistinct 00:27:11]. | 26:20 |
| Julius Davis, Jr. | Well I never hated [indistinct 00:27:17] like this [indistinct 00:27:18] because once you accept the supervisor position at the post office, first of all, it's already— It's less than $600. Doing one type is less than $600 a year salary-wise. You have to start off as a [indistinct 00:27:36] and you're all the way at the bottom of the pole, and you have to [indistinct 00:27:42] and it's never been my pleasure [indistinct 00:27:46] 3:00 in the morning. But I'm used to going over at 7:00, 8:00 or 8:30. Yeah, I mean and most of those [indistinct 00:27:59] we wanted to get some Black [indistinct 00:28:01]— [phone rings]. Excuse me. Where were we? | 27:16 |
| Eric Johnson | You were telling me, or you just got done telling me about you were talking to get a Black supervisor, and how you would prefer not to be a supervisor, and why. | 28:08 |
| Julius Davis, Jr. | Because now you have quite a few Black supervisors, and you've got quite a few Blacks in the postal service. Because things are changing 60%. But yeah. So there's progress to be made on equality [indistinct 00:28:49], and it's going to continue, maybe not as fast as we would like it to. And it can change [indistinct 00:29:02] and also in private [indistinct 00:29:05] for like this, the [indistinct 00:29:15] and then [indistinct 00:29:19] think so, given the [indistinct 00:29:26]. Because it's still, right now, in most cases, if you and I both go downtown with that car [indistinct 00:29:38], it's an extremely strong possibility [indistinct 00:29:46] 14 years. [indistinct 00:29:50] with the Blacks, see , that we have to live with. Not there. [indistinct 00:29:59] when that happens, you know [indistinct 00:30:04] you don't like it. | 28:23 |
| Eric Johnson | You were telling me earlier how you were a part of the NAACP. | 30:09 |
| Julius Davis, Jr. | Oh, for youth. Well we would form the youth council of the NAACP. Well the NAACP has been in existence for years here, in the local bridge, but we decided to open that to the [indistinct 00:30:36]. And we were doing business colleges formerly, and also [indistinct 00:30:44] from North Carolina Central. And I stayed with them about three years [indistinct 00:30:55] but then I lost track [indistinct 00:30:59] other people [indistinct 00:31:02]. | 30:15 |
| Eric Johnson | What sort of things did you do for that? | 31:04 |
| Julius Davis, Jr. | Well one of the things we do is to try— To give you an example, we would keep up with [indistinct 00:31:24] trying to get flyers to pass out to the community. There was [indistinct 00:31:36] I can't even, it's been so long ago, and I think that the state certainly— But they were all— the same things that exist in the NAACP would be doing now [indistinct 00:31:53]. And imagine [indistinct 00:32:01] federal employee. I've never been in a position [indistinct 00:32:10] federal employees could [indistinct 00:32:18]. Opened in March, participate in any type of this place [indistinct 00:32:29]. | 31:13 |
| Eric Johnson | Do you know why that was? | 32:34 |
| Julius Davis, Jr. | To be a federal employee, you would have to [indistinct 00:32:41] be involved in [indistinct 00:32:43] situation as well. And imagine now [indistinct 00:32:51]. | 31:39 |
| Eric Johnson | Now what is it called? | 32:53 |
| Julius Davis, Jr. | Hatch hack [indistinct 00:32:55]. | 32:55 |
| Eric Johnson | What about the postal union? Were you involved with that? | 33:04 |
| Julius Davis, Jr. | Oh yes, greatly so. Even then, the postal unions were a separate thing. You had seven unions. You had the NALC, that's the Natural Association of Letter Carriers. And here in the south, it was predominantly White. You had the clerks doing it who was predominantly White, but we had the NAPL, the National Association of Government [indistinct 00:33:43] which is probably the flag. But in our craft, we had all things. It's because they work with many flags, so we all [indistinct 00:33:54] one of the clerks to carry us, the wheel handles, and custodians to pull it. | 33:08 |
| Julius Davis, Jr. | And this is where we hit the [indistinct 00:34:26]. If you had a problem, a grievance or whatever, complaint [indistinct 00:34:28] and then it was very, very, very [indistinct 00:34:29]. They would let you come in as a [indistinct 00:34:34] but you could not participate in the function. And so [indistinct 00:34:40] of course you would [indistinct 00:34:40] now it's practically out of existence because the Blacks have been able to go into the other unions. And the thing that bothers me is, they've totally forgotten the NAPFE, and had it not been for the NAPFE, they wouldn't have a job themselves, because the NAPFE is the one who got— The one [indistinct 00:35:12] about the [indistinct 00:35:15]. | 34:02 |
| Julius Davis, Jr. | And one fella that the job [indistinct 00:35:24] White union was on the way to being fired because of something really they shouldn't have been paying for, and he was a part of the [indistinct 00:35:40]. So then HR, he was in trouble, so he came through us. And because of [indistinct 00:35:44]. | 35:21 |
| Eric Johnson | So how mostly did union deal with this problem, or by what method? | 35:54 |
| Julius Davis, Jr. | Well the a NAPFE have done all of this, of course. [indistinct 00:36:05] bringing out of Washington or whatever, so you've got [indistinct 00:36:08]. Fortunately at that time, the president of the union was a Durhamite. He'd been living in Washington [indistinct 00:36:18] and he was born and raised here in Durham. But he'd gone to DC, and he'd gone to work at the postal service. And so he had a big concern for what happened in the Durham area, and when we [indistinct 00:36:48] call him, because he could talk. This was the president. And the post office here, I mean did not want to see him come because he brought folk. He was well-versed with the law of the [indistinct 00:36:58] first of all, and they didn't want to cross him because he could get things done, he was a mover. And he kind of reminded me of the 300-Man March. He marched with Martin Luther King. Seems we could be related. | 36:01 |
| Eric Johnson | What sort of things did he try to do besides the fighting discrimination? | 37:35 |
| Julius Davis, Jr. | Well he had to fight discrimination. But as a local branch, we met with a lot of them. We met with other groups. We kept abreast of how others were fairing. What we need to do promote the postal service. What we needed to do to promote the ethnic moments of the postal service. And we also had a socialized visit [indistinct 00:38:15] everything. But like I said [indistinct 00:38:28]. I was talking to [indistinct 00:38:31] because the regular stream of [indistinct 00:38:39]. The older fellas like me remember. The younger fellas don't remember [indistinct 00:38:44]. Maybe they're not concerned about too, they didn't write [indistinct 00:38:51]. They were [indistinct 00:38:56] for three weeks, and some of the guys [indistinct 00:39:03] special delivery, and I had one to go out on Chen now, it used to be 3rd Avenue. | 37:39 |
| Julius Davis, Jr. | And at that time, the streets had [indistinct 00:39:22] there was one on each side because it was east and the west. I didn't know that because I hadn't been there long enough, so I went to a house across the street, I think if I remember it was [indistinct 00:39:33]. And the lady said, "No, she doesn't live here." I said, "Do you know this person?" No, the person was right across the street, but I didn't know that, because [indistinct 00:39:42] so I carried it back to the post office, to the— Carry it to the register room [indistinct 00:39:52] type things. So he stamped it and sent it back. Then when he sent it back, well he was supposed to [indistinct 00:40:02] but he didn't. He just sent it back, and the person that had sent the letter was the daughter of the lady [indistinct 00:40:13] more than anything. So then somebody had to come up to me and tell me he couldn't tolerate this White lady. If I could do it better than that, like better [indistinct 00:40:25]. And at that time, I didn't know any better. But then a couple months later, I found out that it was not my responsibility. The supervisor knew it wasn't my responsibility, but he just directed it back on me because he could. He should have directed it to the registrar, because registrar is supposed to work with him direct. | 39:15 |
| Eric Johnson | To make sure. | 40:52 |
| Julius Davis, Jr. | To make sure [indistinct 00:40:53] I didn't know that. Too late, you didn't, you better call and you better apologize, you do these things. And I wanted to work, so I did what he said [indistinct 00:41:11]. And you work with people, you know how it goes. And we also had some various people [indistinct 00:41:25] some people who were very [indistinct 00:41:27] people. | 40:53 |
| Eric Johnson | What sort of— I guess we've been talking a lot about your work life, and your school experience. I met your wife earlier. When did you get married, when did—? | 41:34 |
| Julius Davis, Jr. | Oh (laughs) no, I got married after I got out of the service, and met my wife at church. We got married in September of— Or August 28th, 1953, so we've been married for 43 years [indistinct 00:42:19]. As a result of getting married, we had four kids. A boy, and after the boy, we had three girls. They're all grown, of course, and as a result, we have five grandkids. [indistinct 00:42:40]. And [indistinct 00:42:46] Black people [indistinct 00:42:53] we've had some ups and we get some downs. More ups than downs, fortunately. And we've been married 43 years. | 41:48 |
| Eric Johnson | Good to know. | 43:08 |
| Julius Davis, Jr. | Just do a lot of things, really do a lot of traveling. I just like to travel, my wife and I also go in the summer, so we take off three weeks. Go someplace. One year, we went to— Or one time we went to Florida, and five years we lived there, or four years we lived there. Three of the four years, we enjoyed it up to Orlando, coupled with [indistinct 00:43:39] and then we went to West Palm Beach, Victoria Beach. Aladdin Beach, and we went to New Orleans. [indistinct 00:43:54] of course. And [indistinct 00:43:58]. | 43:12 |
| Julius Davis, Jr. | But the kids had [indistinct 00:44:05] since it's just my wife and them, a couple, one of my [indistinct 00:44:14] we could be drove to LA [indistinct 00:44:24] all the way to LA. We'd drive through the day and stop at night. We stopped at Nashville at the Grand Ole Opry. We stopped at [indistinct 00:44:41] in Memphis [indistinct 00:44:44]. Excuse me, hey hon. | 44:01 |
| Speaker 3 | Hey dear. | 44:48 |
| Eric Johnson | You were just telling me a story of how you're still working with [indistinct 00:00:11]. | 0:03 |
| Julius Davis, Jr. | Yes, I am. | 0:11 |
| Eric Johnson | I was wondering what it was like to be a young married man in the '50s. I've heard a lot about Hayti being a very vibrant area. | 0:14 |
| Julius Davis, Jr. | Really, Hayti was even more vibrant than Atlanta. You had more Black businesses there in Durham than you did in Atlanta. At the time, we had businesses all over Pettigrew and Fayetteville Street that were loaded with business. Ms. Jones had—I could name them I would just have to go down [indistinct 00:00:54]. I don't remember exactly how many, but you had every type of business imaginable. You had two movie theaters. You had restaurants, donut shop, Elvira's, Papa Jack's Grill. | 0:22 |
| Julius Davis, Jr. | You had electrical supplies, tools you know, mechanic—Not auto mechanic, but something like wood and things of that nature. You had the electric companies. You had two. You had two of them. Yeah, I think so. You had electric companies, we had two of them. You had plumbing companies. You had the largest Black insurance company in the world. You had Black banks, Black insurance companies. You had Banker's Life in addition to North Carolina Mutual. So, Durham was pretty progressive, I would say, for Blacks. | 1:16 |
| Eric Johnson | If you could, maybe to help me visualize it, what—say, you and your wife went out on a date. What would a typical night be? | 1:55 |
| Julius Davis, Jr. | Well, dinner, I suppose. You do that more than we do. And you had Donatell's, nice restaurant. Just like we do now. First of all, we had to get a babysitter because we had so many babies. But we'd get a babysitter and we'd go out, of course. The same way you'd do things now. Economically, you might have been a little better off then, with kids, I think. You didn't have as much, because we didn't have a television, we didn't have cablevision—well, you had TV, but not anything like that one. | 2:09 |
| Julius Davis, Jr. | When I went to work at the post office, I was making a dollar and eighty-two cents an hour. But my wife, she couldn't work then because she had to quit work because of the small kids. We were buying this house. We had a two cars. Just living just as well as I am now, off a dollar and eighty-two cents an hour. But then, too, things were so cheap. But now, both partners of the family, the husband and his spouse, or wife and spouse, usually have to work now to live as well as my wife and I did then. | 3:30 |
| Julius Davis, Jr. | This is why I said [indistinct 00:04:13]. We might not have had as much—but then because you couldn't go spend two thousand dollars on the electrical bill or electronics stuff. Because it didn't exist. A man could not work a job at his level of understanding anyway. You didn't know anything about [indistinct 00:04:52]. | 4:12 |
| Julius Davis, Jr. | A typical outing was, I would say, a man—then, too, a lot of times we would go to movies with the kids. Then you could take kids to movies, any movie, because it was clean. | 4:52 |
| Eric Johnson | What movie theater did you like the best? | 4:55 |
| Julius Davis, Jr. | Well, it was a Black theater, the Regal Theater. And they had a lot of westerns [indistinct 00:05:06]. | 4:55 |
| Eric Johnson | Your wife [indistinct 00:05:06]. | 4:55 |
| Julius Davis, Jr. | She's always been a fan of—What's this guy? It may have been a lot of names. It wasn't John Wayne. I can't remember. Well, I always liked that Clint. I liked the Eastwood type. He always [indistinct 00:05:06]. You know those famous movies, movies that you could take the kids to see. You could have a good family day. But now you have to be very, very vigilant to choose the proper movie. My kids have to be very selective about where they take their kids, what movies. That's why I tell them they wouldn't look at HBO or Cinemax, or whatever now. It's always vulgar. | 5:06 |
| Julius Davis, Jr. | My only thing is that it gave children [indistinct 00:06:46] people might suppose are lies. Educational wise. I would say that we had this is—Our education and sometimes, when I look at this, people say, "who are you to grumble?" I think educationally the elementary level, was better than it is now. It was all Black, the books that we used came from the White school. We never got the new books. The books, they had pages that were torn back and were taped back together. But the teachers were considerate. The parents were considerate. The desks that we would sit in all of them had White kids' names cut into them. They were every—everytime we would get new desks and books, everything that they passed over back to us. | 6:39 |
| Julius Davis, Jr. | But this is what it was like, see. We did the best with what we had. And then too the parents stressed education. [indistinct 00:08:07] hopefully your parents were home every night. Could be of course they didn't have any money, didn't have anywhere to go. (laughs) And the meetings, the weekly meeting. You would go to church on Sunday but through the week, every Wednesday night we would have crab meat instead of [indistinct 00:08:32] supper right there across the street or some place in the community. | 7:33 |
| Julius Davis, Jr. | And a Creole man, we were raised together, wrote a book and it talked about growing up in the neighborhood there in the town. And he said that he was grown before he realized that he was poor. And I guess all of us felt that way because, we had a lot of love, you only had one pair of shoes, but so did everybody else. My momma would tell me to go to the neighbor next door and tell Ms Davis or whatever to send her a couple eggs. And then while I'm getting the eggs, to send her a cup of flour. Can you imagine going over to somebody's house and asking if they had eggs? | 8:38 |
| Julius Davis, Jr. | But the neighborhoods were so—we were talking about education though. A teacher that I had in second grade, she had me in the second and third grades. She lived about a half a block down. The teachers would come to her house at least twice a year. Now every teacher I had knew my parents on a first name basis. And also, the parents then had that theory or philosophy that whatever the teacher said was right, she's not going to say anything [indistinct 00:10:37]. If she said you messed up, or you acting up, you acting up. Teachers did the same thing at their house. | 9:45 |
| Julius Davis, Jr. | Consequently there was a lot more discipline, a lot more respect. To me, there was discipline and respect for the teachers, for the older people, and consequently you would do better with your grades. Because you [indistinct 00:11:13] you learned. This one teacher every year ever even after I got out of her grade if I did anything wrong, the teacher that I had would tell her to stop by [indistinct 00:11:33] and say he acting up. | 10:49 |
| Julius Davis, Jr. | When you got home, she had already been there or was on her way there. Yeah he was showing off today at school. There was no circumstance she's not right. And then we were [indistinct 00:12:00]. | 11:38 |
| Julius Davis, Jr. | I mean sometimes that what you have to do with kids, you have to touch them. To remind them because a lot of times, talking to them doesn't do any good, now to give you an example. Kids are extremely crooked. This is their way of learning. And a kid two years old, if you see that he is going to put his hands over a stove or something hot or do something that is going to hurt him, you tell him "no, don't you touch that". You reach over, smack it, take his hand. Don't touch that. But until you touch him or whatever, sometimes you've got to do it. | 11:43 |
| Julius Davis, Jr. | So I believe in corporal punishment. I don't believe in hurting a kid, abuse. Just talking a lot of times is not going to solve the problem. And my kids, I spank my kids and stuff if they've done wrong. [indistinct 00:13:15] person in the world. I was teaching my oldest son—youngest daughter, she has kids. Little fellow was showing off in school. I had to go get him because he was throwing books all over. And I think when I got home I had to tell him that he was acting up. Because now kids are much smarter than we were that age because now kids at three years old, they know enough to know that a teacher cannot touch them. | 12:54 |
| Julius Davis, Jr. | And they got to get by with whatever they got to get by with. We did. Anything we could get by with. But we weren't allowed to get by with very much. Because these kids nowadays we were tested. Back then we would all get tested. When she got home she was going to spank him, I thought that was going to busted my side. Because she had always told me "you shouldn't touch a child." But that was before she got hers. | 14:05 |
| Julius Davis, Jr. | But coming back to education, this is why I feel as though we had better education in my—we might not have had the resources, but what resources that we had, we used. We got to train ourselves. Because resources did not help you if you are not [indistinct 00:15:34] you may search the world, you're not going to find it. Also kids then, completed a high school education whether they went to college or not to college. Now that drop out rates are so high. Where are the parents? | 14:57 |
| Julius Davis, Jr. | Talking about politics [indistinct 00:16:05] Republican administration talking about family life. Look, you don't need to be a [indistinct 00:16:17] to know family life is the best thing for children. But being conservative does not monopolize on family life. I don't know what conservatives [indistinct 00:16:30]. Because my views of—I believe in family life, I believe in a lot of things Republicans think they've got a key on. But I'm raising [indistinct 00:16:32] because I also believe in freedom. I believe a woman has a choice. But Jesse Helms' laws, if you believe a woman has a choice, you're a communist. | 16:04 |
| Julius Davis, Jr. | I don't think, consequently I feel as though, integration did not really help Black people that much. This is just my opinion. It was a necessary thing, at that particular time, and I was all for it because separate but equal was a farce. As I just mentioned, about we had the hand-me-downs. But to equalize the school system is where I had system is where I had the same things in the other school that the White schools had. It will never exist. As long as it's separate, because, first of all, the majority is going to be in control. The majority is going to remain in control. | 17:11 |
| Julius Davis, Jr. | It was like, right now, you have—you go to Northern or Hillside, right now, it's a [indistinct 00:18:18], it's a great school, [indistinct 00:17:53]. You go to Northern, these other schools, the difference is, where is the money going. The money is going to the White community. When I came up, everybody lived in the city, for the most part. And, Blacks and Whites. But then on integration, Whites moved to the rural community. And when they moved, these rural communities, that's when they started elevating the schools. Because it's where they went. And up until they integrated the—they merged the school systems, the schools in the city if the teacher wanted any special equipment, she had to go back. | 17:41 |
| Julius Davis, Jr. | But if you work for the county all you had to do was go to the office and everything to get and make a requisition. And the next day, whatever you need is there. But the talk about the separate but equal, at that particular time, there was a need to merge. Because it was not something, it was segregated, definitely, there was no—it wasn't going in the equal direction no way in fact it was getting farther apart. The only way the Black community felt was to merge to have the same—that's always a [indistinct 00:20:16]. That's when Whites [indistinct 00:20:14] moved out to the surburbs [indistinct 00:20:25] so you still have inequality. | 19:10 |
| Julius Davis, Jr. | And I was also the first ambassador [indistinct 00:20:52]. I have gone to schools and saw what was going on and it did [indistinct 00:21:25] integration. Same with the [indistinct 00:21:29]. —Black schools. | 21:33 |
| Eric Johnson | How did your parents feel about education? | 22:03 |
| Julius Davis, Jr. | First off, neither one of them had very much, my mother only went through the sixth grade. But she was an avid reader. My father also like her. What he [indistinct 00:22:11]. And sometimes we believed they were right. Even today he would read you some type of poetry. Even if it's going to learn how to dig a ditch, or learn how to do some plumbing it's doesn't have to be a white collar job. But whatever you are going to learn to be a plumber, go get trained for it. Study. | 22:06 |
| Eric Johnson | What were your parents like in a broader sense. | 22:58 |
| Julius Davis, Jr. | Well, they were [indistinct 00:23:06]. That's what my life's about. They're hard workers. My mother worked at the bank. [indistinct 00:23:33]. | 23:05 |
| Eric Johnson | What sort of values did you have? | 23:24 |
| Julius Davis, Jr. | She had great cigarettes. | 23:24 |
| Eric Johnson | Okay. | 23:24 |
| Julius Davis, Jr. | My father managed a [indistinct 00:23:44]. Because they had to go to the [indistinct 00:23:51]. | 23:24 |
| Eric Johnson | You didn't want them to [indistinct 00:24:03]. | 24:01 |
| Julius Davis, Jr. | I did later on but I didn't want to see [indistinct 00:24:41]. It was summer time. Every Summer I would work at the back [indistinct 00:24:43]. —North Carolina and you had the [indistinct 00:24:44]. And just about everybody [indistinct 00:24:44]. Every Summer, that's where they had problems coming in, Police, and had to [indistinct 00:25:15]. Because that was how I bought my clothes. [indistinct 00:25:25]. | 24:18 |
| Eric Johnson | [indistinct 00:25:25] that job? | 25:24 |
| Julius Davis, Jr. | It was hard work. And then to [indistinct 00:25:31]. Kids are kids. There's going to be a lot of play, and a lot of—because you knew [indistinct 00:25:31]. The boss had to steal your bag and you know. I was offered a job at the school district. | 25:27 |
| Eric Johnson | High school? | 25:30 |
| Julius Davis, Jr. | No at the [indistinct 00:25:31]. I worked at the [indistinct 00:25:31] service. [indistinct 00:25:31]. —having to work full time. But we didn't think about that then because they had [indistinct 00:26:42]. | 25:31 |
| Eric Johnson | You don't regret it or?— | 25:31 |
| Julius Davis, Jr. | Oh no. | 25:31 |
| Eric Johnson | Okay. | 26:42 |
| Julius Davis, Jr. | Because I would relocate [indistinct 00:27:33]. I was happy. I've never been [indistinct 00:27:48]. —Maybe I learned at an early age I'd never be rich. [indistinct 00:27:57]. —next meal or whatever. | 27:42 |
| Eric Johnson | But, not that I'm disagreeing, but it seems like, [indistinct 00:28:23]. It seems like you're—you and you're brother [indistinct 00:28:28]. | 27:57 |
| Julius Davis, Jr. | Well, [indistinct 00:28:33]. —I guess the more you get the more you—[indistinct 00:29:08]. In my way successful. Not a affluent successful. | 28:28 |
| Eric Johnson | What determines that for you? | 29:11 |
| Julius Davis, Jr. | [indistinct 00:29:26]. —at peace. Being able to support the family. Being able to do have a fairly good place to stay. [indistinct 00:29:53]. Take the family on vacation. Maybe [indistinct 00:30:18]. —as long as you have peace, and have [indistinct 00:31:04] successful. | 29:11 |
| Eric Johnson | I agree and for you it seems like a spiritual [indistinct 00:31:14] also. You made it sound like your parents are very religious. | 31:13 |
| Julius Davis, Jr. | [indistinct 00:31:19]. —sitting on the couch, curled up with the books. She did. | 32:19 |
| Eric Johnson | Where were they from? | 32:30 |
| Julius Davis, Jr. | My father was from South Carolina. My father was [indistinct 00:32:42] coming up here. [indistinct 00:32:42]. They met that year. My mother came in with her mother. And my father was in a Marine during World War Two. He was a cook. And he was going back home to finish after the war ended. [indistinct 00:33:12]. Anyway, he stopped in [indistinct 00:33:26]. | 32:52 |
| Eric Johnson | [indistinct 00:33:35] a stop over? That was pretty lucky huh? | 33:36 |
| Julius Davis, Jr. | Well he stopped and apparently like her because he started working there for a while. And incidentally he started at the factory but he didn't like it. | 33:39 |
| Eric Johnson | [indistinct 00:33:52]. | 33:40 |
| Julius Davis, Jr. | [indistinct 00:33:55]. He took her of course down to work. [indistinct 00:34:13]. | 33:40 |
| Eric Johnson | My father used to work for [indistinct 00:34:27]. | 33:40 |
| Julius Davis, Jr. | Oh really? | 33:40 |
| Eric Johnson | He went to school here and worked in the warehouse and stuff. | 33:40 |
| Julius Davis, Jr. | Oh see, you have some Durham parents. | 33:40 |
| Eric Johnson | Uh-huh. My grandmother and father [indistinct 00:34:43]. My fourth year here. [indistinct 00:34:52]. | 34:48 |
| Julius Davis, Jr. | [indistinct 00:34:53]. —and later on she wanted to change because [indistinct 00:35:40]. —a language. [indistinct 00:36:08]. | 34:53 |
| Eric Johnson | When you started your dry van company, was that just something to do or [indistinct 00:36:49]. | 36:41 |
| Julius Davis, Jr. | No, when I was [indistinct 00:36:55]. Even when I was in high school [indistinct 00:36:57]. And when I was in high school, I would leave, go to work, go back to football practice, come back to work at the factory, [indistinct 00:37:11] Paisley Street. People they all took a liking. I learned a lot about factories. They would let you [indistinct 00:37:31]. But if I wanted to go to a football game on Friday nights [indistinct 00:37:50]. And then on Monday's, they go out Monday exactly with the [indistinct 00:38:04]. | 37:58 |
| Julius Davis, Jr. | And as a result I learned, to practice which was really good and [indistinct 00:38:39]. I just didn't know, I just wanted to do it. And I was learning. So then when I got [indistinct 00:39:02]. | 38:02 |
| Julius Davis, Jr. | One person waiting on the front [indistinct 00:39:26]. Right there by the drug store [indistinct 00:40:01]. And I had pretty well made that [indistinct 00:40:33]. | 39:20 |
| Eric Johnson | While you were in the service? | 40:36 |
| Julius Davis, Jr. | Yeah. | 40:37 |
| Eric Johnson | Why did [indistinct 00:40:40]. | 40:39 |
| Julius Davis, Jr. | No, I'll just say that I needed to get paid. Because business was fine, but even in business, had I stayed a little, I would have probably tried to work out some kind of way to go back to school. [indistinct 00:41:05]. | 40:39 |
| Eric Johnson | What was the name of the [indistinct 00:41:08]. | 40:39 |
| Julius Davis, Jr. | One day I start as a lawyer [indistinct 00:41:19]. | 40:39 |
| Eric Johnson | And so you were drafted into the military? | 40:39 |
| Julius Davis, Jr. | Drafted. [indistinct 00:41:33]. | 40:39 |
| Eric Johnson | [indistinct 00:41:34]. | 40:39 |
| Julius Davis, Jr. | [indistinct 00:41:38]. | 40:39 |
| Eric Johnson | You were a young man with [indistinct 00:41:44]. | 41:42 |
| Julius Davis, Jr. | I had a newspaper route [indistinct 00:41:44]. I got good at it then though. Because I got a lot of experience [indistinct 00:42:09]. I believe that every man should spend, even the men in the military should spend about at least six months in the environment like the military. Where he has to grow. Where he has to apply himself. Where he has to live an extremely structured life. Will make you grow. Make you think. Because I've seen so many people, so many young fellows, [indistinct 00:42:51]. | 41:44 |
| Julius Davis, Jr. | I was on the land, five months. There were two major fields there on Bloody Ridge [indistinct 00:00:02] on Bloody Ridge, for five months, and then my brother was captured. At that time, there were two of us, and I was older. That's something I was—but at that time, we didn't know about what kind of take place, and he was then reported as missing, because nobody knew where he were. Because the Chinese would not give you the name, people that they— | 0:01 |
| Julius Davis, Jr. | So, they pulled me off the land, and sent me back to Japan. But doing that five years on the land, after five months of fighting on the land, I found out a lot about fear. A lot about different conditions. Because the [indistinct 00:00:55], of an evening, we spent oftentimes sleeping on the ground, in holes, in this adverse condition. | 0:38 |
| Julius Davis, Jr. | And we were in [indistinct 00:01:09] empowering a lot of workers. As an example, when I got back to Japan, the first night, I got pulled over. This is around the area, in my tent were placed in Korea. And so, they gave us a big steak dinner that night. Oh, they fed us, and oh, they gave us anyone. Free eggs, and good shaving cream. | 1:08 |
| Julius Davis, Jr. | You know, we got all spruced up. And so, at nine o'clock, we went to bed, and they had these pretty white sheets, and tight beds. And oh, I just thought it was so good to not have—when I got into bed, I just couldn't sleep. I just couldn't sleep. So, I got up out of bed, and got on the floor. And I went to sleep. And the surprising thing was, when I woke up the next morning, everybody else was on the floor. (laughs) | 1:41 |
| Eric Johnson | Oh, wow. | 2:16 |
| Julius Davis, Jr. | It was amazing. Now you have to learn how to sleep. Now you have to learn how to sleep on the bed, after sleeping on rocks and ground so long. My brother was captured, as I said. He stayed thirty-three months and sixteen days in China. His PTSD was bad. Curtain back down, and he was suffering with his own thing, medically, because of lack of counseling. Because there is—the Chinese, they had rice. All they ate was rice. They gave their prisoners rice soup. | 2:16 |
| Julius Davis, Jr. | So, a lot of bad there. But he survived. But he was [indistinct 00:02:57], extremely, from all the bad dreams, the back of his head. And it took him months before he could tolerate to be here. He told me. We were talking. I think he must have got the state that they gave up. They gave in to their [indistinct 00:03:34], but they couldn't tell anyone. | 2:56 |
| Eric Johnson | What when they came back? | 3:34 |
| Julius Davis, Jr. | Hit me. Just, it took a while before his system could get—because he'd go into—first they gave him liquids, and then soft foods, and then—it's like you do with a baby, and a person with intestinal problems. In other words, he had to learn how to eat all over again. | 3:34 |
| Eric Johnson | When did you find out he was a prisoner? I mean, how long were you unaware? | 4:12 |
| Julius Davis, Jr. | That was out—we found out about—I got him in October '52. We found out about him in August or September '53, that he was still alive. Because they were not allowed—he said he got some mail that people accepted in the cupboard, but they did not—he didn't see it. | 4:17 |
| Eric Johnson | Okay. This was the Chinese? | 4:38 |
| Julius Davis, Jr. | Well, Korean. Well, the North Koreans. The Chinese came in, just as the Americans went in to help the South Koreans. The Chinese came in, help the North Koreans. And he got caught, and then fell, shuffled with three hundred thousand Chinese— | 4:46 |
| Eric Johnson | Came across. | 5:09 |
| Julius Davis, Jr. | —came over to get through the border. If you can recall, back after, it's the same thing we talked in the meeting, about [indistinct 00:05:22] across Korea. And a lot of people that were entering again, the Chinese, they'd come down from [indistinct 00:05:28]. But Koreans would come after us. [Indistinct 00:05:35] Get them to stop going through—get there while we were moving through Korea, [indistinct 00:05:40], the border stop. The Korean [indistinct 00:06:00] border. | 5:10 |
| Julius Davis, Jr. | That's when the cops that came up and over to me, and he said—it was a thirty caliber machine gun. And he said, "Shut the—" He stated the gun to the man's heart. He said to people, the first row would come with the States, and the second row would come with nothing, but they both would have the guns. And the third [Indistinct 00:06:38] the next week. I was missing one time. I wasn't missing, because I knew where I was. We got pinned down behind the land, between— | 5:17 |
| Eric Johnson | The Chinese? Chinese? | 6:52 |
| Julius Davis, Jr. | Well, the Chinese and North Koreans. Just like it was us and South Koreans. As you know, they had turned. For the—I knew. I found my way back around, how to get back around there, and back to—out of it. [Indistinct 00:07:10] to care for my favorite thing, because— | 6:52 |
| Eric Johnson | You might get shot by your own. | 7:19 |
| Julius Davis, Jr. | By your own. That's right. But if I ever have to go in a war, I would want [indistinct 00:07:31] to turn to. | 7:21 |
| Eric Johnson | Korean? | 7:32 |
| Julius Davis, Jr. | You would think. (laughs) You only have them for life. You don't have stuff to chicken out [indistinct 00:07:48]. If you—for instance, by mid-morning, we trudged down the clock, and then twelve o'clock, we'd be hidden, because the town. You know? You know, I'd be stealing out to a nice piece to eat. And if you get caught stealing, they'll cut your hand off. So, if you get caught stealing a second time, they'll take the other one off. That'd make you in pretty bad shape. (laughs). | 7:32 |
| Eric Johnson | Can't steal anymore. | 8:05 |
| Julius Davis, Jr. | But they have a low rate of crime, too. Those guys were [indistinct 00:08:21]. It looked like they could get anything. | 8:05 |
| Eric Johnson | Were you in the same—I don't know what the proper terminology is, but unit with British soldiers? | 8:21 |
| Julius Davis, Jr. | Well, they were next to us. And there was a language barrier. But you knew what they were doing, and they knew what you were doing. We might not be able to converse, but there was always somebody that could say—they had just a little bit, and they were—you know. Because there was always somebody around who could—but they was good bait. They even stayed. | 8:21 |
| Eric Johnson | Are you going to tell me about the project? | 8:21 |
| Julius Davis, Jr. | Stayed and let him do the work. | 8:21 |
| Eric Johnson | Were all units still segregated? Are there— | 8:21 |
| Julius Davis, Jr. | Truman integrated them. | 9:28 |
| Eric Johnson | Okay. | 9:28 |
| Julius Davis, Jr. | And they were in the process of—it was integrated when I went in. This was in 1950. Basically, treated well. Albeit, when I left Korea, Korea was integrated. But then when I left the corps, I was the first Black in the community. There's no other Black people there. | 9:29 |
| Eric Johnson | [Indistinct 00:10:00] military experience. | 9:59 |
| Julius Davis, Jr. | Oh, starting with Korean War, yes, for prep. Because it's [indistinct 00:10:09]. | 9:59 |
| Eric Johnson | Were you glad to be discharged, or— | 10:11 |
| Julius Davis, Jr. | Yep. I could have stayed in too, because there'll always be a need. But I just wasn't—after what happened, after going through what you go through—Material. I never liked somebody telling me when to get up, when to go to bed, when to eat, when to sleep, what to wear. You know? I liked to do things on my own. And military, just was regimented. | 10:14 |
| Julius Davis, Jr. | And I can understand why it has to be, because you're dealing with a bunch of people. A bunch of guys. You have to have some kind of control. And it's close to me, because we live in America. Folks made the slaves [indistinct 00:11:06]. So, you have to—same thing for staph, for health purposes. Have to make sure other folks take baths too, you know? | 10:51 |
| Eric Johnson | Yeah. | 11:35 |
| Julius Davis, Jr. | What else? Military life just—after it's over and everything, I really appreciated not having to have every fear, which I would not have had, had I not been pushed, though. That's what I think. Helped me, actually. Spent six months under regimented conditions. I felt at home with this. All the talk about the military, I guess I keep thinking of some things, and trace back over a long time. | 11:35 |
| Eric Johnson | Why don't we take a break for the day? | 12:20 |
| Julius Davis, Jr. | Okay. | 12:23 |
| Eric Johnson | And we'll schedule another appointment. | 12:24 |
| Eric Johnson | Okay. This is tape three of interview with Eric Johnson and Julius Davis on October 29th. | 0:01 |
| Julius Davis, Jr. | [indistinct 00:00:12]. | 0:12 |
| Eric Johnson | Yeah. Last time we were talking at the end of the interview, you mentioned that you played in the Negro Baseball League. | 0:16 |
| Julius Davis, Jr. | Right. | 0:22 |
| Eric Johnson | Could you tell me something about that? | 0:23 |
| Julius Davis, Jr. | That was before integration, before Jackie Robinson in '47. Blacks have played baseball for a long time, and you had some extremely talented Black ballplayers. In fact, Blacks were better. This has been proven, but — and it's never been accepted. As I remember when the Black all-stars played the White all-stars [indistinct 00:01:03] played then, they played with three guys [indistinct 00:01:10]. The first time we won it seems like we were trying, you know, different excuses any time you go on the field to play, you have to go out to win. You're just doing it to have some fun [indistinct 00:01:33]. And he walked away. But [indistinct 00:01:47] you had all [indistinct 00:01:49]. And comprised of Black [indistinct 00:01:58] Black [indistinct 00:01:59] Black [indistinct 00:02:00]. | 0:26 |
| Julius Davis, Jr. | So we made the team through the whole [indistinct 00:02:03] Indianapolis Clowns, Kansas City [indistinct 00:02:06] Kansas City [indistinct 00:02:08] produced [indistinct 00:02:12] Jackie Robinson [indistinct 00:02:14] Homestead Grains had the [indistinct 00:02:20] catching them, put on a glove [indistinct 00:02:25] he would knock them out. He was the first baseman. In fact [indistinct 00:02:30] I've seen him do things that had never been done before [indistinct 00:02:37]. | 2:02 |
| Julius Davis, Jr. | When Blacks started going into organized baseball, the revolution [indistinct 00:02:48] the first infield fly rule was the result of Jackie Robinson. As long as there's been organized baseball, the National League of it would be the organized baseball [indistinct 00:03:06] nobody's ever thought about a pop fly over the infield. [indistinct 00:03:12] the pop fly, let the pitcher just let it hit the ground, because the runner's on first base, and the ball popped up in the infield. Then you have to stay on first base because if you get caught off then you're out. So what the — | 2:43 |
| Speaker 3 | [indistinct 00:03:40] | 3:29 |
| Julius Davis, Jr. | So what the second baseman would do, or the first baseman would do, is just drop the ball and [indistinct 00:03:40] and make a double play. And when Jackie Robinson started that thing, they had to make some adjustments. That's when they called the infield fly rule [indistinct 00:03:52] Another thing is Willie Mays. You've heard of Willie Mays? | 3:35 |
| Eric Johnson | Mm-hmm. | 4:00 |
| Julius Davis, Jr. | He's [indistinct 00:04:01] play the game because [indistinct 00:04:06] of course he was [indistinct 00:04:07] he's in the Hall of Fame. He was taught to always throw a [indistinct 00:04:16] and so we were [indistinct 00:04:19] if he would have [indistinct 00:04:23] playing right field and a runner's on first base, and he would get the — pick up the ball and then you'd throw the ball to second base. If nobody's on base and you're playing right field and a fellow get a single, somebody get a single, they hit a ball to you in right field, and you'll throw it to second base [indistinct 00:04:46]. | 4:01 |
| Julius Davis, Jr. | But then Willie Mays came in and he started throwing behind [indistinct 00:04:51] and he caught a lot of players — because, if you know — Oh, are you familiar with baseball? | 4:48 |
| Eric Johnson | Mm-hmm. | 4:57 |
| Julius Davis, Jr. | Okay. If you get a single, you'll round first base. See, when he started, if you round first base, you've got to know where you are because the ball is coming down behind you. You may make an attempt to turn around and come back and then you're too far [indistinct 00:05:19] try to get down there, because [indistinct 00:05:23] but they never [indistinct 00:05:31] There were so many things the Blacks did in baseball, but I've never played — well, I played with the [indistinct 00:05:41] in Arkansas. I started [indistinct 00:05:45] and then we played over East Coast. We traveled to New York [indistinct 00:05:54]. | 5:00 |
| Julius Davis, Jr. | Well, I never played year-round [indistinct 00:06:00] played year-round, because for the most part I was still in school [indistinct 00:06:06] That's all we did for a lot of [indistinct 00:06:11] play baseball. We played here in the States during the summer months, and then in the winter months they'd [indistinct 00:06:16] most of them — because people [indistinct 00:06:25] baseball players [indistinct 00:06:29] And even from the organized baseball, they would send players [indistinct 00:06:36] 19 year old or whatever. Then you had witnesses. Then you could get [indistinct 00:06:57] as long as [indistinct 00:06:59] fastball sometimes when they're smoking [indistinct 00:07:17]. | 6:00 |
| Julius Davis, Jr. | I started off extremely young. I was only 15 years old [indistinct 00:07:27] during that time, it was during the Second World War [indistinct 00:07:31] during the Second World War, and [indistinct 00:07:36] and I really did not pursue it. I guess maybe I just didn't have the heart, a desire during the war to go into baseball [indistinct 00:07:56] and maybe I didn't have as much time as I thought I had. You know, sometimes we always — a lot of times we're not as good as we think we are. [indistinct 00:08:06] I enjoyed [indistinct 00:08:08] | 7:25 |
| Julius Davis, Jr. | There's one thing about the Negro baseball. We traveled only 12 or 13 players, which with the pitchers had — if you pitched today, then you would have to play right field tomorrow, and I played every position on the field but pitch and catch. I never caught and I never pitched. I couldn't be a pitcher [indistinct 00:08:33] but I played — my brother taught me how to play first base, and I played [indistinct 00:08:41] after he left and started playing third base. And he was drafted [indistinct 00:08:46] he didn't go in the service [indistinct 00:08:51] playing service baseball, he threw his arm away trying to pitch. He was our first base. So that was [indistinct 00:09:02]. He went in to St. Louis — Yeah, St. Louis [indistinct 00:09:14] Detroit, Detroit. He was Detroit [indistinct 00:09:17] so most of the Black players could play [indistinct 00:09:28] because we might have to play — whoever was out, that's where you'd play. It was a lot of fun [indistinct 00:09:39]. | 8:15 |
| Eric Johnson | What was the team like here? | 9:43 |
| Julius Davis, Jr. | [indistinct 00:09:48] two teams [indistinct 00:09:52] You had the [indistinct 00:09:56] Eagles and [indistinct 00:09:57] but there was always — they had a lot of [indistinct 00:10:13] and not only just them, all [indistinct 00:10:18] because there was nothing else to do but play ball. During the summertime, you play baseball, in the wintertime, play basketball, and through the spring or fall, play football. What else was there to do? There was no television, and we didn't have [indistinct 00:10:40] a lot of things [indistinct 00:10:43]. In the summertime, you didn't have as many chores as kids, and they would [indistinct 00:11:06] cleaning their house or whatever. It didn't take long for that [indistinct 00:11:14]. | 9:48 |
| Julius Davis, Jr. | There was really nothing else to — as far as going to the library and things of that nature [indistinct 00:11:35] we had libraries but we just didn't [indistinct 00:11:39] just play ball. That's why so many during those days, you didn't find very many Black [indistinct 00:11:55] if you didn't play baseball [indistinct 00:12:02] pretty good basketball player. Some could play all. I planned to play them all but [indistinct 00:12:10] and baseball [indistinct 00:12:17] basketball but [indistinct 00:12:19] like to play baseball [indistinct 00:12:21]. And I played guard, and it was what they'd call now point guard, then we called it standing guard, functions practically the same. Standing guard would [indistinct 00:12:42]— We did a lot of more passes. | 11:28 |
| Julius Davis, Jr. | We'd try to get as many layups as possible, and there wasn't a 24-second — a 30-second. You'd just move the ball around till we got sometimes a [indistinct 00:12:58] wide open for a layup or what we called a short shot. [indistinct 00:13:04] people outside that can put up a jump shot. [indistinct 00:13:08] jump shot anyway too much. You would use the two-handed set shot for the most part. [indistinct 00:13:18] the old pros using that two-handed set shot. [indistinct 00:13:28] the standing guard [indistinct 00:13:30] what was called the number two guard now, the off guard could penetrate. But I had to stay back because if the other team got the ball off the boards [indistinct 00:13:41] they got the ball off the boards, I'd have to be back [indistinct 00:13:44]. | 12:49 |
| Julius Davis, Jr. | Oh yeah, that's one other thing about basketball, the difference between being in basketball [indistinct 00:13:59] always had a [indistinct 00:14:03] I could remember one year [indistinct 00:14:09] behind closed doors [indistinct 00:14:12] we got 100 [indistinct 00:14:17] about 22 [indistinct 00:14:21] But then you had — in the Black schools, you [indistinct 00:14:27] I guess right now you could see — you know, because the athletes now, for the most part, they're superior but [indistinct 00:14:39] this didn't just happen. It's been all along, they just never had the opportunity to express their gifts. | 13:50 |
| Julius Davis, Jr. | But if you're familiar with basketball, you remember [indistinct 00:14:56] I might have heard about [indistinct 00:15:09] you were supposed to have a proper fast break to basketball, and [indistinct 00:15:14] But when he gets a credit card for the fellow, a Black coach down at Central [indistinct 00:15:21] was using the fast break 10 years before it ever came to [indistinct 00:15:31] using it and adopted that style. And of course they [indistinct 00:15:39] remember, though, he's from Kansas. He went to Kansas [indistinct 00:15:47] well he's also in the Hall of Fame. [indistinct 00:15:56] it's just like in business and other areas. [indistinct 00:16:07] a lot of them didn't give them a chance [indistinct 00:16:16] and it's hard to — to give you an example, if you [indistinct 00:16:21] and you've seen [indistinct 00:16:27]. | 14:54 |
| Julius Davis, Jr. | You have to recognize [indistinct 00:16:33] man, he would have been at Central and Howard or some other school, and so he [indistinct 00:16:47] he would have had the skills but [indistinct 00:16:55] but baseball was — because I say, baseball was [indistinct 00:17:09]. He went through a lot of things, but now it's [indistinct 00:17:24] about 70% of your baseball [indistinct 00:17:26] baseball because in 1972 [indistinct 00:17:30] talk about [indistinct 00:17:33] because that's also [indistinct 00:17:39] if you were a superstar, if you were Black, then that was — if you were not a superstar, then you could not be recruited because we had so many Blacks in baseball. | 16:32 |
| Julius Davis, Jr. | And they didn't want that in baseball like that [indistinct 00:18:01] you're not going to play [indistinct 00:18:12] White people [indistinct 00:18:16] and then winning is secondary to seeing [indistinct 00:18:27] support for [indistinct 00:18:28] is really just why you had to [indistinct 00:18:35] in the new year to promote. | 17:55 |
| Julius Davis, Jr. | To give you an example [indistinct 00:18:51] a point guard named Bobby Hurley. Bobby Hurley never was a good basketball player [indistinct 00:19:01] but I would go out to see them play because [indistinct 00:19:14] football, but Hurley was [indistinct 00:19:21] I've seen guys, Kenny Anderson, Cassell, I've seen him just take advantage of [indistinct 00:19:39] would have to take him out and give him a break before coming back in because he just didn't have it. But then [indistinct 00:19:43] got to be depressed from [indistinct 00:19:46] And as you see, there were five point guards [indistinct 00:19:50]. So this kind of stuff did go on. Then he goes to Sacramento currently, so he [indistinct 00:20:02] and then he tried out and couldn't play because now he signed [indistinct 00:20:11] contract but his basketball is practically over as far as — I mean, he's still making that money because [indistinct 00:20:20] he's proven he can't play [indistinct 00:20:27] an example of exploitation. | 18:50 |
| Eric Johnson | What were the fans like for baseball? | 20:34 |
| Julius Davis, Jr. | Blacks supported Black [indistinct 00:20:41] big parks like that [indistinct 00:20:48] you would have people work from [indistinct 00:20:51]. | 20:39 |
| Eric Johnson | What about here, where did you play? | 21:11 |
| Julius Davis, Jr. | [indistinct 00:21:14]. | 21:14 |
| Eric Johnson | [indistinct 00:21:15]? | 21:15 |
| Julius Davis, Jr. | [indistinct 00:21:17] old ball park. It was El Toro Park then but now it's — what do you call [indistinct 00:21:27] baseball park now [indistinct 00:21:29]. | 21:16 |
| Eric Johnson | Oh, okay. | 21:32 |
| Julius Davis, Jr. | [indistinct 00:21:32] the first home run [indistinct 00:21:36]. | 21:33 |
| Eric Johnson | Did you hit the ball? Hit the ball? | 21:42 |
| Julius Davis, Jr. | No [indistinct 00:21:43] this happened after the [indistinct 00:21:45]. It was a group called the [indistinct 00:21:59] where we could go in free and [indistinct 00:22:03] saw all the ball players, I remember all the ball players. | 21:43 |
| Julius Davis, Jr. | Like I said, go out to see the ball players. [indistinct 00:22:16] ball players [indistinct 00:22:19]. Some playing against them [indistinct 00:22:24], and then [indistinct 00:22:35] also had some [indistinct 00:22:37] this little fellow, Andrew Jones, a 19-year-old kid [indistinct 00:22:43] unless the management starts [indistinct 00:22:50] messing with him, his skill, he's really going to be a tremendous ball player. But a lot of players are over-coached though now. I feel as though they are [indistinct 00:23:06]. | 22:13 |
| Julius Davis, Jr. | I remember Campanella from [indistinct 00:23:12], he was a catcher with the Brooklyn Dodgers [indistinct 00:23:19]. Campanella who had a catcher named Josh Gibson who was the greatest catcher that ever lived. Josh Gibson never threw standing. He would never stand and throw. He always threw from the crouch, and I remember one night he put on an exhibition. He took a little bucket and put it on second base and throw to home plate, and just stood there while the crowd [indistinct 00:23:55] ping, ping, ping, like a machine. And Campanella always threw from the crouch. | 23:10 |
| Julius Davis, Jr. | So Campanella goes from organized baseball [indistinct 00:24:13] That was the first thing he done [indistinct 00:24:16] baseball [indistinct 00:24:19] And that's the greatest asset [indistinct 00:24:22] but nobody else ever did it, so they just allowed him to do it, but nobody [indistinct 00:24:29] just learn and he started [indistinct 00:24:38] and he could stand or crouch, and he could throw to first base almost without [indistinct 00:24:49]. You know we had a tendency to leave the bag and stand around if you weren't careful [indistinct 00:25:01] but they made him throw from [indistinct 00:25:09] 12 years old [indistinct 00:26:00] you would have to [indistinct 00:26:06]. | 24:10 |
| Eric Johnson | Oh yeah. You talk about I guess the situation of African Americans now versus the situation of African Americans [indistinct 00:26:34] one example that intrigued me was the idea that education was better when it was [indistinct 00:26:43] | 26:28 |
| Julius Davis, Jr. | [indistinct 00:26:42] yeah, I think so. As I said in the previous interview, that we had far inferior tools, equipment, but the desire, the pushing from the parents of the [indistinct 00:27:14] you had to do, because everybody, all the parents stressed education. Not so, now. But then [indistinct 00:27:27] parents stressed education, and it was your responsibility to do your work. And they saw to it that you did your [indistinct 00:27:37] if you had homework too or whatever, you did that. There was no way out of it, and then if you did not do what you were supposed to do then you [indistinct 00:27:54]. | 26:47 |
| Julius Davis, Jr. | But now — and a lot has to do with the lifestyle [indistinct 00:28:08] dropping moral ethics. So, some of the [indistinct 00:28:13] different people talk about one-parent homes. I've seen a tremendous amount of one-parent home where the kids did very good [indistinct 00:28:32] but sometimes [indistinct 00:28:37] but sometimes it could be detrimental too because unless both parents are in agreement, unless — if you're going to have two parents that are always [indistinct 00:28:54] it's going to affect the kid. So, in some cases I think maybe it would be better if you don't have no parent. It was hard on one parent to raise a kid, but they can be successful [indistinct 00:29:06] a lot of women have raised kids, a lot of men have raised kids successfully. [indistinct 00:29:21] every household now [indistinct 00:29:23] both parents. We joke about that because as I thought about my parents, they had nowhere else to go [indistinct 00:29:37] They had to depend on each other. Economically, they had to work together. And so, raising their kids, they had to do things together and [indistinct 00:29:53] there was no democracy in the house. There were two [indistinct 00:30:00] but my parents had total control of that house. They let you know. They would let you know that they controlled that house. | 28:01 |
| Julius Davis, Jr. | So I had to think about where the fellow would [indistinct 00:30:15] and he went down with her to make a speech and he said [indistinct 00:30:24] this house and [indistinct 00:30:28] you're going to do what I say to do, and that's how most families [indistinct 00:30:31]. You had to respect the parents. Now they don't respect the parents [indistinct 00:30:34]. And then [indistinct 00:30:47]. But the reason for integration was to put equality in [indistinct 00:31:01] everybody [indistinct 00:31:05] in the same [indistinct 00:31:09] but it never worked that way, so this is what they thought. This is what I thought [indistinct 00:31:18] because I was definitely [indistinct 00:31:20] but now he's still [indistinct 00:31:24]. And so Blacks got stuck in the urban areas and the Whites who [indistinct 00:31:59]. | 30:12 |
| Julius Davis, Jr. | To give an example, in the Durham city system if a Black teacher wanted to get, say, some special work, some grants or whatever, they had to go to [indistinct 00:32:19] in the county schools where the Whites [indistinct 00:32:27] and request it. The next day [indistinct 00:32:32] You know, little things like that. My kids went in the integrated system. I'm probably the first [indistinct 00:32:46] and we were supposed to [indistinct 00:33:02]. | 31:59 |
| Julius Davis, Jr. | My daughter was — one of my daughters happened to be [indistinct 00:33:14] at that time in the seventh grade. She had in her class — had a White teacher. This White teacher got annoyed with her, so she went to the principal and told him about [indistinct 00:33:40] They would do their work, but that was all. No kids would say anything. Everyone was totally silent [indistinct 00:34:54] volunteering to do anything. So the principal called me [indistinct 00:34:17]. He called me and asked me to come over because the teacher said my daughter was instigating, and so I went over to the school [indistinct 00:34:32] the teacher's daughter [indistinct 00:34:36] and the principal would come in because [indistinct 00:34:42]. | 33:10 |
| Julius Davis, Jr. | So, I asked the teacher about the situation, what had happened, and she said — well, she told me [indistinct 00:34:51]. And so I [indistinct 00:34:57] discussed it with my daughter [indistinct 00:35:01] do something like that. She said that [indistinct 00:35:07]. So, I thought about it, so I asked the teacher, "Has she ever taught Black kids before?" [indistinct 00:35:22] I said, "Well, how do you feel about Black kids?" She said, "I'm White." [indistinct 00:35:29] if you're here and you don't want to be here, you're in the wrong place. | 34:44 |
| Julius Davis, Jr. | [indistinct 00:35:39] I told the principal [indistinct 00:35:48] you're going to have to get rid of her [indistinct 00:35:51] and she just said [indistinct 00:35:53] the rest of the semester [indistinct 00:35:56] but what they were doing were sending the cruelest White people to the Black schools and taking the best Black teachers and putting them in the White schools [indistinct 00:36:12] they're playing a game. A lot of games [indistinct 00:36:19]. | 35:39 |
| Eric Johnson | What did you think of the integration of the county and the cities? | 36:25 |
| Julius Davis, Jr. | It's immersion. It's a necessary thing. It was definitely necessary, for one reason because of economics [indistinct 00:36:39] two separate in the same county, two separate institutions, so they had to merge. And immersion, you want to know [indistinct 00:37:01] what's there, what's not there. That's why it was such a big issue with the school board [indistinct 00:37:11] how schools [indistinct 00:37:13] because even with the merger, then you've got five people on the board, or there were seven people here on the board, and if you [indistinct 00:37:27] a White board, it's going to leak through the White school [indistinct 00:37:32] White schools. | 36:31 |
| Julius Davis, Jr. | To give you an example of Hillside, Hillside was supposed to have been a 60-40 situation with the integration, so it was 60% Black, 40% White [indistinct 00:37:48] beautiful, wonderful program. But the Whites were allowed to drop out. It shouldn't have been that way, but you had a school board that practically advertised, "If you don't like it, leave [indistinct 00:38:07] somewhere else [indistinct 00:38:09]" And so [indistinct 00:38:13] This is why it was bad for American integration, because there are too many [indistinct 00:38:28] accept the responsibility [indistinct 00:38:32] also. | 37:36 |
| Eric Johnson | So you don't think the school board now is [indistinct 00:38:48]. | 38:45 |
| Julius Davis, Jr. | [indistinct 00:38:50] just look at your voting in any issues. That's always [indistinct 00:38:57] four Whites and three Blacks. In every issue, four-three. And I've listened to a school board [indistinct 00:39:06] and they could come up with the most ridiculous thing [indistinct 00:39:11] And she felt that way [indistinct 00:39:17] pretty stupid. She said, "I had to go along with it but the rest of the other White girls wanted it this way so that was [indistinct 00:39:27]" Why say that? You know? [indistinct 00:39:34] got to stay on the board. | 38:50 |
| Eric Johnson | So you've got to [indistinct 00:39:40] make sure? | 39:39 |
| Julius Davis, Jr. | Oh, it's different, different, and race doesn't exist [indistinct 00:39:44] racism is going to continue [indistinct 00:39:48] as long as you have [indistinct 00:39:58] And everybody can say that there's no racism in this country [indistinct 00:40:12] they're either Black or I guess you would say stupid [indistinct 00:40:40]. | 39:41 |
| Eric Johnson | Do you think that the situation has improved since you were growing up? In other words, your children today, your grandchildren have a better opportunity [indistinct 00:40:48]. | 40:39 |
| Julius Davis, Jr. | Some will, some won't. It depends on their individual [indistinct 00:40:55] I try to do the best I can [indistinct 00:41:01] I try to make sure that they get as much education [indistinct 00:41:06] But I'll give you an example [indistinct 00:41:13] think about [indistinct 00:41:14] you've heard so much about [indistinct 00:41:18] to help those that need help for South Sides, whatever, say [indistinct 00:41:38] talk about their getting funds. It was said [indistinct 00:41:50] type thing and they [indistinct 00:41:52] know that minorities [indistinct 00:41:57] Americans who get 20% [indistinct 00:42:00] get 80% [indistinct 00:42:02] get 20%. It was in the contract [indistinct 00:42:07] | 40:50 |
| Julius Davis, Jr. | He applied for this [indistinct 00:42:19] said that he got the gig because he's Black. True, he got the gig because he's Black, but otherwise he would not have been able to get it. No Blacks for — I'll say in the state of North Carolina, any major contract was never given to a Black individual, and this was [indistinct 00:42:35] Now, is it fair? [indistinct 00:42:39] just continue to push Blacks aside. And another little thing [indistinct 00:42:56] you'll find that just like the situation in South Carolina the [indistinct 00:43:09] years ago, the Blacks owned the property. The Klan come, just ran them out. Took the land from them [indistinct 00:43:22] So, some lawyers, Black lawyers [indistinct 00:43:33] but the thing was, the White people [indistinct 00:43:41] other Black people. Were they right? [indistinct 00:43:53] should they continue to hold it because [indistinct 00:43:59]— | 42:13 |
| Eric Johnson | Durham has often been described as a Black Wall Street or a Black Mecca. But then I've also read reports that it wasn't anything like that. It was much more run down. As someone who's lived through that time period, what are your thoughts on Hayti? | 0:05 |
| Julius Davis, Jr. | Well, depends on who you talk to. Some Blacks would say it's a Mecca. You had all types of Black businesses there. You had every kind of business there in the Black community, that was needed. A Black person did not have to go downtown for anything. You had the grocery stores, Black-owned businesses. You had a insurance company, you had banks. You had restaurants, [indistinct 00:01:04] and stuff. Homeowners supplies, or building supplies. You had electricians. Plumbers. The fact is that the Black community could totally survive without the White person. This was unique. And imagine, a lot of that had to do with other areas. Because you've heard of urban renewal, right? | 0:24 |
| Eric Johnson | Mm-hmm. | 1:38 |
| Julius Davis, Jr. | Do you know the reason urban renewal was formulated? It's for one particular reason. Destroy the Black community. | 1:39 |
| Eric Johnson | Are you referring to 147? | 1:50 |
| Julius Davis, Jr. | Well, that part but urban renewal came through—where is this 147? They were going other places. Never came through there. You had to turn to Hayti. | 2:00 |
| Eric Johnson | So in your opinion, that— | 2:18 |
| Julius Davis, Jr. | This is proof of every Black metropolis was affected by urban renewal. Every Black metropolis was [indistinct 00:02:26] community of Black-owned businesses was affected by urban renewal. | 2:20 |
| Eric Johnson | Well, what about the promise to build a new [indistinct 00:02:46] somewhere? | 2:41 |
| Julius Davis, Jr. | A promise is a promise is a promise. That's why the Black community bought it. Because we're going to tear down, we're going to build back better. It's been what, 30 years still? It's better? | 2:48 |
| Julius Davis, Jr. | Again, it should help them. [indistinct 00:03:14] White men talk [indistinct 00:03:15]. You got urban renewal approved across the country. Could not have done it without the Blacks' support and endorsing. And so it comes, because they [indistinct 00:03:30]. It was [indistinct 00:03:31]. They tore everything down, and then we had a lot of business there. You could not afford to [indistinct 00:03:45] across the back. [indistinct 00:03:46]. Because the two paths met [indistinct 00:03:47]. It was [indistinct 00:03:53]. It was [indistinct 00:03:53]. | 3:01 |
| Julius Davis, Jr. | The thing that really hurts me was [indistinct 00:03:56]. It's about 4 years ago when [indistinct 00:04:00]. | 3:45 |
| Eric Johnson | How? | 3:55 |
| Julius Davis, Jr. | To destroy the Black community. | 3:55 |
| Eric Johnson | How did you find that out? You said four years ago? | 4:09 |
| Julius Davis, Jr. | Oh yeah, about four years ago. Did some research work [indistinct 00:04:16]. | 4:11 |
| Julius Davis, Jr. | Everything is [indistinct 00:04:22] more [indistinct 00:04:24]. It's like the [indistinct 00:04:33] in Alabama, that stuff in Alabama. It kind of went off [indistinct 00:04:37]. It went through the south. If anybody was accused of [indistinct 00:04:49]. But it happened. | 4:11 |
| Eric Johnson | So you see the development of 147 African American [indistinct 00:05:03] as being in line with other— | 4:11 |
| Julius Davis, Jr. | For the times. For the larger times. It had to [indistinct 00:05:03] Black communities. If it wasn't 147, it'd be something else. | 5:02 |
| Eric Johnson | What did you think of [indistinct 00:05:09] while it was in its modern era. | 5:02 |
| Julius Davis, Jr. | I loved it. [indistinct 00:05:09]. The fact that [indistinct 00:05:09] Black [indistinct 00:05:09]. In [indistinct 00:05:09], it was like seeing [indistinct 00:05:09] as a result of schools, I guess. That was [indistinct 00:05:09] because through the time, you couldn't go to North Carolina State. | 5:08 |
| Julius Davis, Jr. | You had a lot of Blacks that had progressed. And you have to give a lot of credit to all kinds of people. Because [indistinct 00:06:10]. It's still the largest Black [indistinct 00:06:18]. Then the castle [indistinct 00:06:21] that bridge. [indistinct 00:06:23]. Then it started getting banks all over [indistinct 00:06:30] started here. It was on Federal Street. | 5:08 |
| Julius Davis, Jr. | You had to do the shopping at [indistinct 00:06:40] people establishment. You had [indistinct 00:06:43] hotel, a solely Black hotel. When it was Black, [indistinct 00:06:53] come in this area [indistinct 00:06:56]. Bands, the [indistinct 00:07:02] when they would come to [indistinct 00:07:06]. If they came through Raleigh, or [indistinct 00:07:12]. | 6:37 |
| Julius Davis, Jr. | So this is why [indistinct 00:07:19] occupied Wall Street. Now, a lot of people liked to pass along [indistinct 00:07:33], but that's because [indistinct 00:07:39]. That's baloney. You can travel just as fast [indistinct 00:07:48]. I'll admit now, some of those businesses might be [indistinct 00:07:56] or whatever. But I don't care what you do, you [indistinct 00:07:58]. But for the most part, they [indistinct 00:08:03] look at us. | 7:14 |
| Eric Johnson | So your thing was that there was not really a need for urban development? | 8:07 |
| Julius Davis, Jr. | None whatsoever. None whatsoever. The Blacks were solely for taking over the [indistinct 00:08:21]. Once they threw [indistinct 00:08:28]. | 8:15 |
| Eric Johnson | This [indistinct 00:08:36] last question. If you had any remarks, or anything you'd like to add. And just for me, I kind of like to hear if you have any particular strong positive or negative memories of your life [indistinct 00:08:49]. | 8:31 |
| Julius Davis, Jr. | [indistinct 00:08:49] was always [indistinct 00:08:50]. It's always been [indistinct 00:08:50]. I went to school here, born and raised, grew here. I [indistinct 00:08:50] in the service, but I came back here. I worked here. Raised a family here. [indistinct 00:08:52] go to college here. Two of them [indistinct 00:08:52]. | 8:49 |
| Julius Davis, Jr. | But I lived there. I lived there. I'd say a lot of things, a lot of negative things. A lot of positive things [indistinct 00:09:42]. And we had some [indistinct 00:09:48] relationships with the Whites [indistinct 00:09:50]. Because we got the Whites [indistinct 00:09:54]. It would've been impossible. | 8:50 |
| Julius Davis, Jr. | But I've seen some vicious things. You had [indistinct 00:10:10]. And it's another thing at this light that we remember. I [indistinct 00:10:23] concerned because I don't understand. What does it look like? What does it [indistinct 00:10:27]? | 9:46 |
| Julius Davis, Jr. | Because I believe in [indistinct 00:10:35], that was [indistinct 00:10:36]. I believe [indistinct 00:10:36]. A lot of things that sent [indistinct 00:10:36] through might be considered by a lot of people as being [indistinct 00:10:36]. I like family. Family of [indistinct 00:10:36]. I like police protection. I like it like anything else. So [indistinct 00:10:36] be a liberal. Because I like things that promote [indistinct 00:10:36]. And [indistinct 00:10:36] in the past, if you endure some [indistinct 00:10:36], they made you new [indistinct 00:10:36]. | 10:20 |
| Julius Davis, Jr. | I like [indistinct 00:11:40]. | 10:20 |
| Eric Johnson | Is there anything else you wanted to add? | 10:36 |
| Julius Davis, Jr. | I don't know. Have I sounded negative? | 11:43 |
| Eric Johnson | No, no, not at all. Just trying to get [indistinct 00:11:57] looking at negative issues, as far into that you [indistinct 00:11:59] positive thing [indistinct 00:12:12]. | 11:51 |
| Julius Davis, Jr. | The [indistinct 00:12:38] extremely nice. And [indistinct 00:12:38]. There's only one thing, it was [indistinct 00:12:38] because that's [indistinct 00:12:38]. He's an embarrassment. [indistinct 00:12:38]. Does that make North Carolina a conservative state? [indistinct 00:12:40] conservatism. Because [indistinct 00:12:43] somebody because they go and get smart with [indistinct 00:12:48] situation's worse than that. | 12:38 |
| Eric Johnson | Well, thank you very much for participating in this. [indistinct 00:13:03]. | 12:57 |
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