Jessie Payne, Jr., interview recording, 1995 July 31
MP3
Loading the media player...
Transcript
- Download transcript as:
-
Text
-
PDF
-
WebVTT (includes timecodes)
Transcripts may contain inaccuracies.
| Doris Dixon | Reverend Payne, could you please state your full name and date of birth? | 0:04 |
| Jessie Payne, Jr. | Reverend Jessie Payne Junior, 11/16/46. | 0:07 |
| Doris Dixon | Reverend Payne, where were you born? | 0:19 |
| Jessie Payne, Jr. | In Leflore County. Itta Bena, Mississippi. | 0:19 |
| Doris Dixon | And is that where you grew up? | 0:19 |
| Jessie Payne, Jr. | Yes. | 0:20 |
| Doris Dixon | What are some of your earliest memories? | 0:22 |
| Jessie Payne, Jr. | Basically, around five years of age, going to my first school, church. And from there to elementary school, L.S. Rogers, which now exists on Mississippi Valley State campus. | 0:26 |
| Doris Dixon | Can you recall the greatest joy or sadness in your childhood? | 0:47 |
| Jessie Payne, Jr. | Well, the greatest joy, seemingly, were—when I was able to get out of high school. There were other moments of joy when, at the end of each year, I was able to be promoted and not detained. That would give me great satisfaction. | 0:52 |
| Jessie Payne, Jr. | And the sad was where I had parents who wanted so much to see me progress but they didn't have the money to provide me with things. And I was saddened on some of the things I could not do because of my parents unable to provide me. For example, I wanted to play basketball, but my parents couldn't buy no gym shoes. I was very good, but I could not get on the basketball team. So I chose to get in the dance troupe. And that was a highlight for me, to be chosen the State Champion of Mississippi in '56, I think, and a few more years. After finishing high school, being a great dancer, I got an opportunity to go to Lennox, Massachusetts, to Fokine Ballet School for a summer and that was the greatest joy in my high school day. | 1:12 |
| Doris Dixon | Could you tell me about some of the differences that you saw up there in life, comparing life in Massachusetts and here? | 2:05 |
| Jessie Payne, Jr. | And here? | 2:13 |
| Doris Dixon | How long did you live up— | 2:13 |
| Jessie Payne, Jr. | About three months. | 2:14 |
| Doris Dixon | Did you know when you went there that you— | 2:18 |
| Jessie Payne, Jr. | Right. The different were that, especially the White—I live in all White neighborhood. They would speak and it didn't matter to them about me talking. But here in Mississippi I could not talk to a White girl, a White female, without the male looking on you or saying something or they would put you in jail. Up there, it was no one paying any attention. It was all seemingly enjoyable and they adjust and they had no malice seemingly towards you up there, versus here. And being a young man, like I were at that time, I couldn't even speak to young ladies, White girls. Up there, they allowed us to dance with them, talk with them, go to the movie with them, associate with them, but we could not do it here. And right off, I saw the difference of how we were treated up there versus how I was treated here. Okay. | 2:19 |
| Doris Dixon | Can you define the neighborhood community that you grew up? | 3:21 |
| Jessie Payne, Jr. | Yes. Well basically, when I grew up, we grew up on what we call a plantation. I lived on a plantation from my early—from the time I was born up until 1966. And we was sharecroppers. I was sharecropper up until '66, until I left high school. And we all, what—We have different plantation here, plantation there, and we was confined to this plantation. And basically, the owner of the plantation let you use the truck and he somewhat controlled your life. He would tell my father, "We have to go here and your children have to work." | 3:27 |
| Jessie Payne, Jr. | And even in the school, for a good example, we could not go to school year like we do now. We had split section. We would go for a certain period of time, then we would stop going to school and go to the cotton field. Then when what we called lay by, we would go back to school. Then when the cotton get ready to pick, we would stop school and go pick the cotton. And when we finished picking the cotton, then we would go back to school. | 4:13 |
| Jessie Payne, Jr. | It was very—We were mostly plantation. Mostly, basically, were family people on this plantation, family on that plantation. So I basically grew up with most of my family. But as we grew up, we started migrating, migrating different areas. | 4:42 |
| Jessie Payne, Jr. | But it was somewhat controlled by that plantation owner. We had to be in the field and we didn't have—Like today, we work eight hours a week, only take 5, 6, 10-minute break. We would be out in the cotton field. We weren't able, we couldn't go—We didn't have restroom or anything. It was somewhat—We had to go into the bushes and we couldn't stay too long. If you do, they were fire you and all that. But it was a great experience for any person to grow up in. | 4:56 |
| Doris Dixon | What would happen on plantation—Say a member of your family got sick? | 5:32 |
| Jessie Payne, Jr. | Well, he had to take him to the boss, what we call the boss man. And he would call the doctor if he felt that that that child or your parent was sick enough. And he would call the doctor and the doctor would come out to your house. Then, if the doctor felt that you were sick enough, then they would send you to the hospital. | 5:35 |
| Jessie Payne, Jr. | But basically, you would take what we call homeroom medicine. The parent would fix you up. They would call a doctor, they tell you go to the store and get certain things. And that's the way we had to grow up and that's the way our parent, they learned how to doctor on us that's search. And they controlled, they would tell us what to do. Tell a parent, well, if he's not that sick, they would give you some castor oil or something like that. | 5:54 |
| Doris Dixon | Were you ever treated with any of these home remedies? | 6:27 |
| Jessie Payne, Jr. | Yes, yes. I recall cutting my ankle. Well, cut sharpening a hole. What I was chopping with, I cut my foot and it was bleeding. My mother had to take some white, what we called a white rag, and tied it up. And they took some what they call soot from the chimney, put some of that in, or dirt, rather. Put that in it and then went home and puts fat meat, whatever it is, my mother put some type of what would called salve, Vick's salve, something. And put it on it. And they would do all that and we didn't go to doctors. It weren't no doctors in them days. You had to be very sick. | 6:31 |
| Doris Dixon | How often might you go to a surrounding town? | 7:19 |
| Jessie Payne, Jr. | Well, when I was growing up, during the summer we would go no more than once a week. On a Saturday, we all would go to what we call Itta Bena. We would go there and we was allowed mostly—All the plantation owners had their own store. So when you work or earn money, you have to go buy from them or what we call—We had a charge account. You go charge it until you work and they subtract it from your work or the money you earn. | 7:23 |
| Jessie Payne, Jr. | And each plantation had it own store, basically. So when we did go sometime, during the winter we would go once a month. We didn't have money. They would give the family like $25 or $30 each once a month to buy food until we started work. And so the first of each month, we would go to Greenwood to purchase food from Big Star. It was Big Star and come back home and that would last us till the little other thing come. Basically, we grew what we had to have. The meat, we had hogs, chicken and cows, and we would grow all the vegetable. So they would go buy coffee and sugar and other little things that we could not grow. | 7:58 |
| Doris Dixon | Maybe the plantation stores were there. Were they in the town of Itta Bena? | 8:46 |
| Jessie Payne, Jr. | No, they was all in rural areas. | 8:49 |
| Doris Dixon | What was there to do when you came to town? | 8:54 |
| Jessie Payne, Jr. | Well, it was something like—Now it's like a big ballgame together. We'd go and they would have people come in with a little trailer and have a little carnival, some. And we would go on a Saturday or we'd go, we call the café, and they had a theater and little thing like that. We would go and meet at the park because we would not see one another through the week. And we would visit one another and it was just—We'd go on Saturday afternoon, six o'clock, we stayed until 10:00, 11:00, and we had to come back. And we would be walking and talking and seeing—meeting friends. And we would slip and go to the café and dance. We weren't supposed to do it but we would do it. Our mother didn't see us so we would do a little thing like that. That was the outing for us. | 9:00 |
| Doris Dixon | Was there any Black businesses there? | 9:50 |
| Jessie Payne, Jr. | There was a few. I recall the Walkers had one, Southham had one. I can't think, another lady. That was a quite—Always had been some Black business in Itta Bena. I can't think, but I remember quite a few of them. | 9:55 |
| Doris Dixon | Did you pay for— | 10:20 |
| Jessie Payne, Jr. | Did we—Well, when we could. Yeah. See, during that time, we didn't have a lot of money to spend. See, I was only getting 25 cents a week for school, and on weekend I was only getting 25 cents to spend. And that wasn't a lot of money. | 10:22 |
| Doris Dixon | And where'd you go to high school? | 10:37 |
| Jessie Payne, Jr. | I meant the other high school in Greenwood. | 10:42 |
| Doris Dixon | Okay. | 10:43 |
| Jessie Payne, Jr. | I started in 1960. I started 1960 and finished in '66. | 10:46 |
| Doris Dixon | And what sticks out in your mind about— | 10:51 |
| Jessie Payne, Jr. | Well, that time, the discipline they had and the way each class, have a large class and really how they prepared us and motivate us to excel academically and to go on to better ourselves and not drop out and start driving tractors. And most of the young people didn't have goals. They tried to instill us to have a goal and continue on in life, and if we continue we will prosper. | 10:57 |
| Jessie Payne, Jr. | And that's one of the greatest things that they had. They shared their life experience with us and what really makes center, the teachers they had more concerned for us, and they seemed like they was your parents. Because they would tell you what to do and you know if you did not, you were going to be disciplined. And they would always counsel you and give you some guidance, and most of all they give you a sense of direction and try to help you fulfill the goal that you wanted. That's some of the things that really sticks out. | 11:33 |
| Doris Dixon | And you mentioned this importance of motivation, preparation. Who were coming up in this time period? I guess who did you go to as role model? | 12:08 |
| Jessie Payne, Jr. | Well, at that time, I see four, five. I recall Attorney Irving, he's attorney here in Greenwood. I recall some of the teachers, they were—Some of them weren't much older but some of the teachers, how they was able to have money across the month. And just seeing them and seeing how they was able to drive cars and wear neckties, just make me want to go on to school and do greater thing. Just seeing them. And some of the students, it was a challenge to me trying to make good grades like other students. Even though some of my friends had better parents, I mean as far as they had better livelihood, and their parents were able to support them and buy them things. And I always wanted to be—It motivated me to say I can work. | 12:20 |
| Jessie Payne, Jr. | And my father, he was one of the greatest assets that I had. He'd always say, "You don't have to stay in the lives which you're in. If you don't have enough work, you can get it, and work." And he always say, "If you don't have it and don't work to get it, you'll never get anything. It's okay not to have but it's no good not to have it and don't try to work to get it." And that would always stick in my mind. | 13:22 |
| Jessie Payne, Jr. | And one of the other things that really made me want to excel because I would look at some of the young people that their parent were teachers and they had seemingly—We always say teacher's pet, but I would say, "Look, I'm just good as they are." My father would say, "You can do just as good as they can." And that's what stuck in my mind. And I wanted to be among the best. I wanted to excel. And I didn't want to be—Like my dad said, "If you can't be on top, make sure you don't be on the bottom." That's always—I try, I strive to make sure that I would be in the upper class. And I did, I stayed there for—No, I'd finish and I didn't finish honor but I did march and everything, like he tried to instill in me. And some of the other teachers, like our principal, like Mr. Rain, and he a was great motivator. Had another lady named Mrs Round. She was a great inspiration to us. | 13:45 |
| Doris Dixon | After high school, did you stay in this town? | 14:41 |
| Jessie Payne, Jr. | I left in '66 and like I said, three months, and I moved back. I stayed here until '69. I went to Valley a year, then I left and went to the service. I quit going to school, worked for a year, then I left and went to the Navy. Because after, when I finished high school, I was still living in this neighborhood. I grew up in this neighborhood and on my completion of high school, I had to walk about three miles down the road to the school. We didn't have automobile, we had to walk. We didn't have no transportation like they do today. | 14:44 |
| Jessie Payne, Jr. | Go ahead. And we didn't have scholarships. They were available but they was few. We didn't have—Work study were few. But I had to pay something like $127 a semester. So I went and earned the money. And the days that I would get out of school early, I will go back home and drive tractor to make sure I have some additional money to buy other things. | 15:32 |
| Doris Dixon | How has this neighborhood changed over the years? | 16:01 |
| Jessie Payne, Jr. | Well, I left in '71 and upon coming back I see the difference. We don't have plantation like we used to as far as living on plantation. The houses now are not there like they once have been. And most of the people have congregated in one area in the city. | 16:04 |
| Jessie Payne, Jr. | And now it's different because we don't have that family cohesion like we used to. The family unit has disappeared and we've gone separate ways. And it's changed from being—At the time, I was growing up a young man, we had one policeman, that he didn't care if anybody said you did something, he would put you in jail. And most people feared going to jail. And the community were more—They did not accept anything. Like all the older people that we grew up with, if they would see us doing something wrong, they would chastise and tell our parents. Our parents would whip. Now we can't do that and now it has—That respect they had for the elder have diminished. And a lot of young people don't have self-esteem like we did because we didn't want to chop cotton. We don't want to stay in the hot field all of our lives. So that would encourage us to work hard and try to do something constructive. | 16:26 |
| Jessie Payne, Jr. | Now I see so many have taken upon themselves just not strive anything. And the community has been just crippled by lack of leadership, lack of self-esteem. And they have no motivation and we don't have role models like we should. In the midst of it all, we don't have, especially in Afro-American, we don't have the older one. They have tried to change the trends instead of them trying to be more productive and try to reinforce what once have been. They have a tendency to try to mingle with the young people instead of living a life that make young people want to struggle and strive to get something better. They're trying to change to let the young people know you don't have to do anything. I'm like you. | 17:24 |
| Jessie Payne, Jr. | But it makes the community fall because they don't have that type of pride within them and they don't care how it goes on. See, years ago, Blacks would go to the field, work hard, but something they would not take—When I was growing, my father would say, "Listen." He said, "A White man can tell him how to work and everything but he don't tell me how to run my house." And we don't have that today. We allowed all that to just diminish. | 18:16 |
| Doris Dixon | Can you tell me more specifically what we don't have? What it was like when you say your father— | 18:50 |
| Jessie Payne, Jr. | Well, another thing, we don't have—Black families today, they're not church oriented. They have just drift away from moral value. When, for a good example, I was growing up, at the age of 17, 18, my father would say, "Listen, if you get a young lady pregnant, you'll get married. You going to work and take care." Now it doesn't matter. They don't care. | 18:55 |
| Jessie Payne, Jr. | During that time, a young lady could not get pregnant and go to school. She knew if she got pregnant, her dream would be somewhat altered, even though she could go back and finish. But in the process, it would take her much longer and she could not go to school. They didn't have the thing that they have available for them now as far as daycare and things of that. | 19:23 |
| Jessie Payne, Jr. | And then another thing. We don't have Black men to stand up and discipline the children like our parents did. They allow anything. And they don't tell them strive to be—Seemingly, all we tell them to try to be cool and hip. We don't try to tell them how to treat young lady. We don't tell them how to respect themselves, how to grow and try to be more of a man, and strive to obtain something through education. Not getting it through by being bad and reputation. Earn it by going on to school and getting you a trade, or go to school and get a degree whereby you can go out and be very productive in society. | 19:43 |
| Jessie Payne, Jr. | Most of them just say, "Well, look. I made a—You can make it. You don't have to have an education, you don't have to get a education, you don't have to have pride, you don't have to have no moral value." | 20:25 |
| Jessie Payne, Jr. | And all the things that we used to do as far as trying to be a man and family, the family arrangement. The family are not like we used to. We used to try to be a family. Men of today, they just want, like say, "I got this family, I got that family, I got that family." | 20:35 |
| Jessie Payne, Jr. | They going to just spread out and one man have four or five different women's. And different homes. And it's breaking down the moral value and then the unit, the family unit, is not there. More men, some men spend more time elsewhere than they do at home. | 20:51 |
| Jessie Payne, Jr. | And those things weren't visible when I was growing up. A man would have a woman but he would be at home. He may date here and go back home. But now this man go and his children know he's dating this woman. And I mean, he walked right by his children. I mean the thing, those type of thing, no respect. The parents don't respect the children, the children don't respect the parents. And these type of things weren't visible when I was growing up. | 21:04 |
| Jessie Payne, Jr. | We had that type of respect, that type of relationship whereby I respect my father, he respect me, and I'm going to work try to be like my father. We don't have a lot of father or mothers who really want to set example for the children. | 21:28 |
| Jessie Payne, Jr. | So those are a few of the things, specifically, that I see that really has destroyed. And they don't work as far as trying to make our children be more inclined to discipline in the school. They have alleviated. That parent will go to school and make you sit down and talk to your teacher and whip you in front of your teacher. Now, parents don't try to tell the children about school and things of that nature. They don't go to the PTA meeting. They don't ask teachers about my child progress, if he or she obedient. These type of things. | 21:42 |
| Jessie Payne, Jr. | They have attitude. If the teacher do something to my child, I'm going to do something to the teacher. And the child know this and they have deviated from discipline and they don't try to do what is right. So those are some other things and I see very visible. We just don't have the type of—I don't know what word I can use for it. But we don't have the unity. We don't have the type of mentor that we need and we really don't have people with the mind to go on and be better role model for our young people. | 22:18 |
| Doris Dixon | Can the community, the way it used to be—What was the most important thing? | 22:58 |
| Jessie Payne, Jr. | Well, church and their family. They stressed that. Then a job, it was important. Well your family, a family man. They really stressed that. And make sure you get in church because church, see, all the men I knew was in church. Everybody looked up to them because it built the character in them. And especially moral value, they were more inclined to be a gentleman and try to live a life. And they work hard, try to be the best they could. And the little they had, they would try to utilize it in the best way they could. | 23:04 |
| Jessie Payne, Jr. | And their lives were totally different. They stood out among some of the men who just work all week and get drunk. Because I know some of them just work all the week and get drunk. But there were those who would work and try to have something, they work and go to church. And you looked up to them more. | 23:47 |
| Doris Dixon | What do you remember about your home and your neighbor's homes? | 24:17 |
| Jessie Payne, Jr. | Well, in my home it was a very religious home. My mother—It weren't that we wanted to, had to. Once it become part of, we had to do certain things. We had to—We'd go home, my mother—It was a rule that you bathe before you go to bed. It was a rule that you brush your teeth and everything, get up in the morning. We had to pray. We could not disrespect anyone. We have to learn how to work. | 24:21 |
| Jessie Payne, Jr. | I had to learn how to cook, sew. I had to learn how to comb young people's hair, my little nieces. I didn't have any sisters. But I had to learn how to do all the things that a female did. My mother stressed that even though I was a male, I had to learn how to do that. | 24:53 |
| Jessie Payne, Jr. | And my mother always taught us not to take anything that did not belong with my home. For a good example, my mother, father could put anything down before us, we would not take it. We would ask. But some other friends' home, there was no love there, they didn't share. We had to share with one another. | 25:09 |
| Jessie Payne, Jr. | We slept in the same bed. We shared clothes, would get too small for me, my brother get it. And it went on down the line. And plus the fact we were taught always stick together as a family. And some other family, they—For a good example, my other family, they didn't have that type of unity. They would do things different from us and they would steal from one other, fight against one another. And that was a great difference there. | 25:30 |
| Doris Dixon | One final question. When you think back over the courses of life, over the people who were important in your community, who do you think should be remembered? Who should be remembered for, I guess, the importance that they played in either your life or the life of the community? | 25:56 |
| Jessie Payne, Jr. | That is something. Well, I give my mother most credit because she played the most important role as far as helping me keep my eyes, and as I said, keep my feet on the ground. Because I would see others and I would say things, my mother said, "No, you get to be your own, get your own. Work towards your own. Don't work—" And she always would say to me, "Go on to school. You can be just as good as anybody else." | 26:20 |
| Jessie Payne, Jr. | And regardless of what others would say, I would go and tell her, "No, Mama, this—So-and-so got this. Jane got that." She would say, "Listen, that's Jane. What about Jesse? You learn to do what—And you don't have maybe the skill that he had. Use your skill. If you can't sing like this person—" I know she would make me sing. I couldn't sing some of my friends. She'd, "Well, sing the best you can. Don't try to be like that person. Be like you because you are only yourself." And I learned that from her. And how to take the little thing that we had and make the most out of the little thing. | 26:57 |
| Jessie Payne, Jr. | We didn't have a whole lot, but we utilized all that we had. And that, to me—How she would take the little food she had and fix it for all of us. And I learned how to just take a little and make that most out of it. And how she sacrificed to see that I would have. And it just instilled in me to work hard to do whatever I could to be the best, make her proud of me. Because I wanted her to probably look back and see the result, that she had put what—The result of her training and teaching, I wanted her to see me and see some result of her training and teaching in me. And—All right. And I'm through, go ahead. | 27:36 |
| Doris Dixon | Okay. That was— | 28:24 |
| Jessie Payne, Jr. | Okay. | 28:25 |
| Doris Dixon | The people that you preached, you remember— | 28:27 |
| Jessie Payne, Jr. | Yes. And I'm trying to think who else in the community. Oh. Let's turn it off a minute. | 28:30 |
| Doris Dixon | Okay. | 28:43 |
Item Info
Related Items
The preservation of the Duke University Libraries Digital Collections and the Duke Digital Repository programs are supported in part by the Lowell and Eileen Aptman Digital Preservation Fund